S01.E10: Last Christmas

[Johnny Dollar]

Wait. Santa Claus is not real?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

jewish jersey girl here and gotta say, "Hanukkah dinner" isn't a thing. I mean you might spend a night of it with family and eat latkes but it is NOT a big holiday like thanksgiving or Passover and "telling the story" isn't part of it (again that's Passover). It actually would have made more sense as a Hanukkah party because some people do have them but to present it as if it's some typical Jewish family thing, just no.

But the Holiday Armadillo definitely makes an appearance, right?

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Isn't he a millionaire several times over from his tv show?  An off Broadway show is a few hundred thousand at most. And regional productions can easily be in the millions. That said this was clearly a small off off house. Nitpick: it's bizarre that they were rehearsing onstage. That is almost never done because it's just too expensive. You don't get in the space until you load on: you're in a rehearsal room. If they are rehearsing onstage it means nobody else is renting the space and it's so cheap they would never be able to pay everyone- equity waiver- OR a resident theater but in NY those are all off Broadway not off off and again- you aren't using the space until tech. Sorry I know nobody cares but equity stage manager here and this particular point annoys me. They did the same thing on Girls.

The thing I'm wondering about the play, and I know nothing of such things, is who owns the rights to it?  Sloane must think she does, but maybe it's more complex than that and the original investors have some stake in it.  I can see diva Olivia getting wind of Kevin and Sloane and coming back with the investors and throwing a wrench in their plan, even if Kevin has enough money to pull it off. 

 

1 hour ago, sasha206 said:

Is it me or has this show jumped the shark already?  The episodes are starting to become so hokey.  I mean, how many strangers get invited to a family holiday dinner?  And the lightbulb moments?  The fortuitous Christmas Eve appendicitus scare at the hospital with the dying doc?  

No shark jump for me, but I agree this episode was overstuffed.  I could have done with one or the other, or neither, of the suicide jumper or Dr. K's trauma.    William's revelation and Toby's arrival (and possible departure) were dramatic enough, with Kevin's play and Kate's surgery providing enough forward motion.

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

 

 

 

Wasn't that a Christmas Eve party?  Or are you saying he had his attack after midnight?

 

 

I assumed it was December 25 because Kevin and Sloane were already there - after the Hannukah dinner.  This year, the first night of Hannukah falls on December 24.  Also, the heart attack happened AFTER Kate and Toby did it.  It's not like they did it as soon as he arrived and then ran back downstairs.

[Clanstarling]

56 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I assumed it was December 25 because Kevin and Sloane were already there - after the Hannukah dinner.  This year, the first night of Hannukah falls on December 24.  Also, the heart attack happened AFTER Kate and Toby did it.  It's not like they did it as soon as he arrived and then ran back downstairs.

Even if the attack was on Christmas Eve, if Toby dies (and I, for one, hope not), he had the attack pretty late in the evening, and the time he spent on the operating table would kick his actual time of death over to December 25.

I'm a little germ obsessive, so when Rebecca snapped off a piece of evergreen that had been hanging around in hospital halls for who knows how long, I thought, well that's not sterile. I would think they'd take it away from her before they entered the operating room. Which would be pretty bad for an already frightened Kate. I had surgery around the time of this scene and when they took my glasses away before they wheeled me in, I had a moment of panic even though even though I was a grown up woman.

As for the Santa Claus issue, when my kids started questioning, I'd say "well, what do you think" and let them use their critical thinking skills. They worked it out fairly trauma free.

[kili]

Randall's workplace seems a little depressing. The boss who has no life and forces his employees to come to his house Christmas Eve? And if you don't show up, you don't get your bonus? Can't you pick it up in the New Year? 

The boss throwing the envelopes took everybody by surprise, so I suspect that is the first time he has pulled that stunt. Could it be that he is more depressed this year than in the past? At first, I thought he was the one trying to jump, but it was Andy with the Boat (who was there to pick up his bonus).

One of the reasons Andy is jumping is because he made a LOT of bad trades and will get fired. Rogue traders can go pretty rogue. Some have burned through a billion dollars. Between the mention of bad trades and the tossing of the bonuses, I wonder if the firm is in trouble. Maybe that is why the boss is particularly depressed this year. You would think there would be no bonuses if the company was in trouble, but Wall Street doesn't seem to work that way. During the 2008 financial crisis, banks getting bailouts were still handing out bonuses to execs. After the Deepwater Horizon blew up killing 11 workers and filling the Gulf of Mexico with oil, the executives with Transocean (who owned and operated the platform) still got their safety bonuses (and here is their justification "Notwithstanding the tragic loss of life in the Gulf of Mexico, we achieved an exemplary statistical safety record as measured by our total recordable incident rate and total potential severity rate" Yes, they really did state that). So, even if the firm was going under, they might still be paying bonuses - partially because the individual employees met their targets, so they get the bonuses as part of their compensation.

Add in the fact that Randall said that he was going to be rich when he grew up, and it had me wondering about future plot lines.

I can't believe that Jack and Rebecca both completely ignored a clearly distraught Kevin at the hospital (so much for Jack being a perfect parent). It's Christmas Eve and and a 9 year old is clearly worried about his sister, but let's just let him roam the hallways by himself seeking spiritual guidance from gift shop employees. I expected another "Where's Kevin?" speech. "He's kidnapped on Christmas Eve and forced into a child porn ring!" "He's permanently traumatized after seeing a gun shot victim bleed to death in the ER!". "He's joined a cult!"

I hope Randall calls the boat the Mr. Beaumont. What's a boat? A hole in the water you throw money into.

Edited December 8, 2016 by kili

[hisbunkie]

On 12/6/2016 at 10:13 PM, Court said:

This bears repeating: Sterling K. Brown is magic. How was I not aware of him before? 

I enjoyed seeing Rebecca and Kate interact more.

Just read he was on Army Wives, a show I binge watched on Netflix a few years ago.  It's worth watching.  His character is well written and credibly portrayed.  In fact he is the only male "army wife".

i want to know how Rebecca ends up with Luis?  Did Jack drink himself to death?  Was he killed by a drunk driver? Was alcohol even an issue?  

[Hanahope]

Did the suicide threat with Andy really happen?  I had the impression that Randall kindof hallucinated it because he was doing this big talk about forgiveness and it sounded to me like he was 'talking through' about him needing to forgive his mom.  When we saw Andy walking through the crowd like nothing had happen, and Beth certainly didn't see Andy being all upset, I was convinced it was another of Randall's "episodes."

[DearEvette]

Y'know, I am not actually bothered that Randall didn't follow up with Andy.  Honestly, I can't think of what Randall could have realistically done if he had chased him down.   What more could Randall have said or done for him that he hadn't already done?  He had already done the most important thing and removed the immediate threat of self harm.  But I can't see where else that could have gone after Andy had already left, especially since Randall was obviously shocky himself.

6 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Did the suicide threat with Andy really happen?  I had the impression that Randall kindof hallucinated it

I think it was real because before Randall got there, there was an extreme close up of Andy taking off his ring & watched and setting it on the letter addressed to Chloe.  I thought for a minute there we had cut to a commercial.

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, DearEvette said:

I think it was real because before Randall got there, there was an extreme close up of Andy taking off his ring & watched and setting it on the letter addressed to Chloe.  I thought for a minute there we had cut to a commercial.

My impression was that Randall "saw" him doing it from a distance and didn't "understand" it until he got closer.

[SueB]

I'm fairly certain it was real.  That's why Andy sold him the boat. He was getting rid of his possessions.  I think he ran back inside rather than have Beth witness it.  Or maybe Randall really got through to him.  

[TobinAlbers]

41 minutes ago, kili said:

I expected another "Where's Kevin?" speech. "He's kidnapped on Christmas Eve and forced into a child porn ring!" "He's permanently traumatized after seeing a gun shot victim bleed to death in the ER!". "He's joined a cult!"

We really need to start a thread to collect all the possible 'Where's Kevin?' rants. OMG these were all gold!

[Neurochick]

On 12/7/2016 at 5:19 AM, Luckylyn said:

Of course the writers have Rebeca assume Kate's stomach ache is from too much cookies, and super parent Jack's the one who realizes it's more serious.  

Jack only realized it was more serious when he touched her head and she felt hot.  Rebecca didn't do that; I too would have thought Kate just ate too much.  I see Rebecca as more of a real person than I see Jack.

I thought the attempted suicide was a bit much, because it so obviously was made for Randall to get that people make mistakes and people shouldn't have to kill themselves over it.  Randall is still upset with Rebecca and that's okay too.

I kind of understand the issue with the Toby/Kate relationship.  It's not that I hate Toby, but I don't like how this relationship is portrayed, it feels like Toby is "love bombing" Kate:  it's too much, it feels manipulative, he's luring her in, he's not giving Kate enough space to think, "do I like this guy or not?"  I'm not saying everything has to be formal all the time, but I sometimes feel that Toby's coming on way too strong.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Neurochick

[neuromom]

42 minutes ago, kili said:

Randall's workplace seems a little depressing. The boss who has no life and forces his employees to come to his house Christmas Eve? And if you don't show up, you don't get your bonus? Can't you pick it up in the New Year? 

The boss throwing the envelopes took everybody by surprise, so I suspect that is the first time he has pulled that stunt. Could it be that he is more depressed this year than in the past? At first, I thought he was the one trying to jump, but it was Andy with the Boat (who was there to pick up his bonus).

One of the reasons Andy is jumping is because he made a LOT of bad trades and will get fired. Rogue traders can go pretty rogue. Some of burned through a billion dollars. Between the mention of bad trades and the tossing of the bonuses, I wonder if the firm is in trouble. Maybe that is why the boss is particularly depressed this year. You would think there would be no bonuses if the company was in trouble, but Wall Street doesn't seem to work that way. During the 2008 financial crisis, banks getting bailouts were still handing out bonuses to execs. After the Deepwater Horizon blew up killing 11 workers and filling the Gulf of Mexico with oil, the executives with Transocean (who owned and operated the platform) still got their safety bonuses (and here is their justification "Notwithstanding the tragic loss of life in the Gulf of Mexico, we achieved an exemplary statistical safety record as measured by our total recordable incident rate and total potential severity rate" Yes, they really did state that). So, even if the firm was going under, they might still be paying bonuses - partially because the individual employees met their targets, so they get the bonuses as part of their compensation.

Add in the fact that Randall said that he was going to be rich when he grew up, and it had me wondering about future plot lines.

I can't believe that Jack and Rebecca both completely ignored a clearly distraught Kevin at the hospital (so much for Jack being a perfect parent). It's Christmas Eve and and a 9 year old is clearly worried about his sister, but let's just let him roam the hallways by himself seeking spiritual guidance from gift shop employees. I expected another "Where's Kevin?" speech. "He's kidnapped on Christmas Eve and forced into a child porn ring!" "He's permanently traumatized after seeing a gun shot victim bleed to death in the ER!". "He's joined a cult!"

I hope Randall calls the boat the Mr. Beaumont. What's a boat? A hole in the water you throw money into.

Good points about the the firm possibly being in trouble. I didn't think of that. But now I am. So, we have Young Randall saying he's going to be "rich" , and he is (and BTW, isn't Keven rich too? If he had a four year run on a sitcom?) . I am now wondering if it will be a future plot that Randall's firm goes under. And how will Randall deal with it? Maybe he stays home for awhile, while Beth goes back to work (which it think is what she wants).

im glad they addressed William's personal life. I found it odd that a man, who apparently had been clean since the 80s , never married and had a family of his own. Not saying it doesn't happen...just that I think that William just seems to be a "romantic" type who would want to have a partner and family. If he is bi or gay, that would explain why he had no other kids.

 

im also glad we got that scene with the doctor giving all the advice about the gastric bypass surgery. Because, when Kate told Kevin, it's "just surgery. No big deal. " I was all "it IS a big deal!" No surgery is routine. There are always risks. My friend lost his father due to infection after a "simple routine" operation. And , though I don't have a lot of experience with the gastric bypass so I'm no expert, I've known four people over the years that has the surgery. Three of the four gained back a lot of weight and they all have medical issues related to the surgery. It is definitely NOT routine, and should not be taken lightly. Besides the fact that the people that I know had to have a psych evaluation AND diet to a degree that they could lose 10% of their body mass BEFORE surgery.  (In fact, one friend was so HAPPY to have lost her weight so she could have surgery..and I asked her..if you lost the weight on your own, why have the surgery at all? She looked at me confused.) 

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Jack only realized it was more serious when he touched her head and she felt hot.  Rebecca didn't do that; I too would have thought Kate just ate too much.  I see Rebecca as more of a real person than I see Jack.

I agree. I do think we'll get to see more of Jack's flaws, but I truly think they're just establishing his character as the fun parent, the good guy so we feel for him when he dies. He'll probably die at the end of the season, but with season 2 (come on, NBC! Just do it already!), they'll allow that to be the time to dive into Jack's alcoholism and other issues. But we are seeing small, subtle clues that he's not even a perfect parent. He dismissed Kate's stomach ache as well until she started complaining louder. And Rebecca did take it seriously as soon as Jack said that she was burning up. But depending on if Kate's been sneaky and pretended to be sick before (we haven't seen any scenes of that happening, but it's possible), I think most parents would have done the same thing Rebecca and Jack did. 

[booboopbedoo]

I hope they do not kill off Toby - I liked the banter. Maybe she is going to get pregnant from that quickie????

[ShadowFacts]

33 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

46 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Did the suicide threat with Andy really happen?  I had the impression that Randall kindof hallucinated it

I think it was real because before Randall got there, there was an extreme close up of Andy taking off his ring & watched and setting it on the letter addressed to Chloe.  I thought for a minute there we had cut to a commercial.

I wasn't really sure until the camera landed on just the glass left on the ledge, and the Chloe envelope and watch were gone.  I think this whole thing is a set-up for Randall's career about to change due to whatever Andy did.  I think Beth has already gone back to work, if I recall correctly. 

25 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

On 12/7/2016 at 4:19 AM, Luckylyn said:

Of course the writers have Rebeca assume Kate's stomach ache is from too much cookies, and super parent Jack's the one who realizes it's more serious.  

Jack only realized it was more serious when he touched her head and she felt hot.  Rebecca didn't do that; I too would have thought Kate just ate too much.  I see Rebecca as more of a real person than I see Jack.

I guess the bottom line is they got her to the hospital before her appendix burst or something else dire.  My own kids only complained of their stomachs hurting right before they threw up, and they always threw up when they spiked a fever, so I knew to not dismiss it.  Kids vary.  Kate might have had various stomach aches that never amounted to anything, thus they didn't get concerned instantly.  It would have looked odd for them to immediately scoop her off to the hospital after one or two complaints. 

[kili]

Quote

Did the suicide threat with Andy really happen?  I had the impression that Randall kindof hallucinated it

I can't decide. It certainly seemed real, but I got suspicious when Randall turned around and saw Andy in amongst the crowded party. While the timeline for Andy to grab his stuff and get back into the party seemed small, it seemed absurd to me that Andy was committing suicide in front of those huge windows and not one person noticed. People can get tunnel vision and not notice things and maybe Andy's body language didn't convey much, but Randall's certainly did.  Nobody idly glanced outside and noticed something was off and started paying more attention?

Plus, I don't recall having met Andy before. Wouldn't his suicide have had more urgency if we had at least seen him in the office and had him say "Hi" to Randall? These writers are pretty good about sliding in stuff that becomes important later (e.g., letting us know that Randall tends to save money makes it more meaningful when he spends it on the snow globe later). If Randall imagined the entire suicide attempt, it would make sense that we hadn't met the dude earlier - he wasn't important, just the hallucination.

[Hanahope]

28 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I wasn't really sure until the camera landed on just the glass left on the ledge

Ah, good catch, I didn't see this (blink and you miss stuff).  

[luna1122]

Altho I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow made Andy a(n) hallucination in Randall's head as a long-con kind of twist, I tend to believe it was real. He was real. No, we hadn't seen him before, but it was way for Randall to work out some feelings, so it didn't really matter if we knew Andy.  And yes, WE the audience saw Andy and the watch and the ring and the Chloe note up close before Randall did,  and we saw the glass left there after Andy departed back into the party. It IS a little thought provoking that he was considering jumping with everyone right inside, but then, I think maybe he wanted to be stopped, as some potential suicides do. And...never underestimate how unobservant and self involved people are, especially while drinking at a party. Somebody could leap off a building and nobody would even notice.

That scene was, as someone noted, very cinematic and brilliantly acted, and I crush hard on both Jimmi Simpson and Sterling Brown, so I was riveted by it. It's the only scene that made me cry, and the only one I rewatched.

[ShadowFacts]

5 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Altho I guess I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow made Andy a(n) hallucination in Randall's head as a long-con kind of twist, I tend to believe it was real. He was real. No, we hadn't seen him before, but it was way for Randall to work out some feelings, so it didn't really matter if we knew Andy.  And yes, WE the audience saw Andy and the watch and the ring and the Chloe note up close before Randall did,  and we saw the glass left there after Andy departed back into the party. It IS a little thought provoking that he was considering jumping with everyone right inside, but then, I think maybe he wanted to be stopped, as some potential suicides do. And...never underestimate how unobservant and self involved people are, especially while drinking at a party. Somebody could leap off a building and nobody would even notice.

That scene was, as someone noted, very cinematic and brilliantly acted, and I crush hard on both Jimmi Simpson and Sterling Brown, so I was riveted by it. It's the only scene that made me cry, and the only one I rewatched.

I'm having second thoughts on my judgment that it really happened.  We saw him hallucinate under mushroom influence, but he could have underlying mental illness evidenced by his blindness under stress episode.  He could have gone out on the rooftop to undo the boat deal, which is real because Beth heard about it from others, and saw a glass on the ledge, and started tripping or breaking with reality.  Maybe the whole episode happened and it is foreshadowing the upcoming financial problems of the firm.  Or maybe, (and I only offer it as a possibility and definitely not something I'd want to see) it is actually the ever so perfect Randall who has had the affair and made the bad trades.  It would be too soapy for me, but definitely a way to undo some of his seeming earthly perfection.  Maybe the forgiveness he was working out was not of Rebecca, but of himself.  It's a stretch.  But if it really happened as portrayed, Randall should have at least made an attempt at finding Andy, calling him, something.  Beth should have reacted somehow at seeing Andy.  Would Andy have been talking at the party about selling the boat if he was that desperate, wouldn't he have kept it quieter?  I don't know, just thinking harder about the whole thing, makes it less clear.  

[Big Mother]

I'm just starting to watch the episode, so forgive me if this turns into a running commentary.

Granted, I'm going through some intense personal stuff at the moment, which probably makes things worse - but the waterworks got turned up from the hospital scene with Kate, and I was unabashedly sobbing out loud when little Randall came in with the snow globe.

I was a little confused though how a dying man is laying so complacently on a gurney; if he's having a slow hemorrhage why isn't he being rushed into surgery? And Randall and Kevin wandering alone in the hospital hallways - they are nine years old! 

[Cardie]

7 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I don't know anyone who does not drink that ironically only.

I love its soda-poppy goodness and always have it at Seder, although alongside a more "respectable" wine for the guests.

[mojito]

I'm not an insider, but I'm sure that writers put everything into the first season because they don't know that the show will be renewed. They want to hit us with everything to hook us and to ensure renewal. For this reason, I didn't think this episode contained too much and I think we'll learn the details of Jack's death this season. But as I said, I'm no insider. I don't keep up with showbiz news. For all I know, this show has already been renewed. And if it is, I hope the writers will still have some good material left for the next season.

The oldest daughter declaring William's sexual persuasion....we don't know of all the conversations William has had with the girls. She could have already surmised this from bits and pieces she's picked up in conversations, but it's insignificant to her and that's why she casually made that comment to her parents and why she didn't bring it up before. 

As for believing in Santa....I learned the hard way that it's best to act like you believe in Santa, because once you don't, you start getting "practical" gifts like underwear and kid-sized rakes and snow shovels and a step stool so you can start washing dishes and a can of car wax with buff pads, and the fun is gone. 

People often question so many aspects of scenes (who's watching the boys while Jack and Rebecca are sitting with Dr. K?). I tend to assume that matters are taken care of off-scene and don't fret over many details (although I did wonder which bed Kate and Toby used). The show would get terribly bogged down if every angle was covered. In novels, critics complain when authors do this and accuse them of being paid by the word. Nobody wants filler.

Edited December 8, 2016 by mojito

[Big Mother]

The scene at the bariatric surgeon....

First of all, my sister had the surgery done and she never went through all those morbid scenarios the doctor outlined. Ugh. But guess what? She didn't take my mother along to the appointments. She didn't even tell most people, such as myself, that she was doing the surgery, bc she wasn't in the mood of dealing with everyone's comments. Rebecca at the doctor drove me nuts. She reminded me of my own mother, and a lot of mothers in their 60s, who are judgmental like that.

YES, KATE, YOU'RE DOING THE RIGHT THING. HEAR IT FROM ME. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm a little germ obsessive, so when Rebecca snapped off a piece of evergreen that had been hanging around in hospital halls for who knows how long, I thought, well that's not sterile. I would think they'd take it away from her before they entered the operating room. Which would be pretty bad for an already frightened Kate. I had surgery around the time of this scene and when they took my glasses away before they wheeled me in, I had a moment of panic even though even though I was a grown up woman.

I thought that Rebecca was going to try to give it to Kate to take into the operating room, but she didn't.  She held onto it while Kate was wheeled away.

 

3 hours ago, neuromom said:

Maybe he stays home for awhile, while Beth goes back to work (which it think is what she wants).

 

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think Beth has already gone back to work, if I recall correctly. 

I think she goes to work after she drops the girls off/puts them on the bus.  She is always dressed professionally on school mornings.  She probably works part-time and is present when the girls get home from school, and perhaps she works from her home office during school breaks.  A mention of what she does would be nice.

Edited December 8, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I think parents were a little more paranoid by 1989 (if this is taking place in December 1989 like I think it is because these kids are 9 now, we're right after the Jacob Wetterling's abduction/murder), but I think you would figure that a kid would be safe in a building since it wasn't outside at night. I used to wander around by myself a lot back in the early 90's when I was 5, not 9/10-ish.

It was 1989.  There was an opening shot of a "1989" ornament on the tree (which I guess doesn't necessarily MEAN it was 1989, but why put the shot in there if that wasn't it?)

[luna1122]

46 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm having second thoughts on my judgment that it really happened.  We saw him hallucinate under mushroom influence, but he could have underlying mental illness evidenced by his blindness under stress episode.  He could have gone out on the rooftop to undo the boat deal, which is real because Beth heard about it from others, and saw a glass on the ledge, and started tripping or breaking with reality.  Maybe the whole episode happened and it is foreshadowing the upcoming financial problems of the firm.  Or maybe, (and I only offer it as a possibility and definitely not something I'd want to see) it is actually the ever so perfect Randall who has had the affair and made the bad trades.  It would be too soapy for me, but definitely a way to undo some of his seeming earthly perfection.  Maybe the forgiveness he was working out was not of Rebecca, but of himself.  It's a stretch.  But if it really happened as portrayed, Randall should have at least made an attempt at finding Andy, calling him, something.  Beth should have reacted somehow at seeing Andy.  Would Andy have been talking at the party about selling the boat if he was that desperate, wouldn't he have kept it quieter?  I don't know, just thinking harder about the whole thing, makes it less clear.  

I hope it's not that, I really do. I think we, as an internet/tv lovin' society, have gotten so obsessed with clues and twists and easter eggs that we now look for them in everything, and many shows sure supply them (jimmi simpson's West World sure did, you practically needed to do homework to keep up with it), but I really hope this show doesn't become one. I won't be shocked if it does, but I hope not. Let Suicidal Andy just be Suicidal Andy, not Randall's doppelganger hallucination. Please.

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, booboopbedoo said:

I hope they do not kill off Toby - I liked the banter. Maybe she is going to get pregnant from that quickie????

Pregnancy...I HOPE that doesn't happen.  This show is not yet to a point where they can start contemplating another generation (not including Randall's girls).

That being said....it is TOTALLY the set up for a pregnancy.  Quickie sex, especially when it was hinted earlier in the season that Kate is not on any birth control, is a show runners baby dream.  Kate is also on the verge of having a surgery that could put the show in a weird place as far as her weight vs. Chrissy Metz's weight.  A pregnancy takes it all off the table.  It also creates a situation, especially if Toby dies, where she has to rely on her family.

Ugh, I DO NOT WANT A KATE PREGNANCY!  PLEASE, NO BABIES!!!!!  I love this show so far, and I've seen too many shows ruined by badly-done baby plots!

Edited December 8, 2016 by OtterMommy
typo

[Big Mother]

The coworker on the ledge thing took me out of the episode. Maybe it's going to pay off soon... but I'd rather see the rest of the family and their travails than some random guest star I don't care about :-\

[OtterMommy]

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Isn't he a millionaire several times over from his tv show?  An off Broadway show is a few hundred thousand at most. And regional productions can easily be in the millions. That said this was clearly a small off off house. Nitpick: it's bizarre that they were rehearsing onstage. That is almost never done because it's just too expensive. You don't get in the space until you load on: you're in a rehearsal room. If they are rehearsing onstage it means nobody else is renting the space and it's so cheap they would never be able to pay everyone- equity waiver- OR a resident theater but in NY those are all off Broadway not off off and again- you aren't using the space until tech. Sorry I know nobody cares but equity stage manager here and this particular point annoys me. They did the same thing on Girls.

 

I don't know about Kevin's finances.  Obviously, he has *some* money, but maybe not as much as we thought.  He seemed to be living quite a luxurious life in CA and it really isn't uncommon for actors, especially ones who are sort of B-list to blow their money when they have it and then, when their job comes to an end, find themselves in financial straights.  Plus, it would make sense that there was some sort of financial penalty for him leaving the Manny.  (I also think he may have been paying his assistant well-above the market value for her job...)

Now, he may have enough money to make enough of an investment in the show so that it might attract other investors.  I still think we're looking at a much smaller production than what was originally planned.

[Big Mother]

Whoa.... I did not realize that it may have been a total hallucination. One minute andy was there, the next he was in the building. Was Randall just imagining it because he had to talk *himself* off his mental ledge? wow.

I did enjoy having Lily from A T&T tell me the story of Chanukah :D :D I guess I'm a little put off by the fact taht she's Jewish and dating a non Jewish person and even going to his Xmas party. But that's probably how some people are....

Edited December 8, 2016 by Big Mother

[ClareWalks]

I am confused. Why are people convinced that the ledge thing was a hallucination? I missed all indications/hints of that in the episode, apparently.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, ClareWalks said:

I am confused. Why are people convinced that the ledge thing was a hallucination? I missed all indications/hints of that in the episode, apparently.

I don't think it was a hallucination (Randall still has the boat to show for it!), but I can see why people think it might be.  The fact that Beth's appearance sort of "broke the spell" and that the co-worker just walked back into the party as if nothing had happened were a little--I don't want to say unrealistic, but they would support the hallucination theory.  I just think that the closure of the scene was poorly directed.

[luna1122]

I don't think anyone is convinced it is.  I'm sure not. Just conjecture/speculation.

Edited December 8, 2016 by luna1122

[Big Mother]

The one big question remaining in my head is... didn't Randall plan to talk to REbecca about everything that transpired, on Christmas eve? It didn't happen. Did Toby keeling over ruin that?

Sorry, but I'm not buying William and Jesse as a couple. I'm not even buying William as gay. That came out of left field. 

Is Miguel going to continue being invisible / the persona non-grata? For how much longer?

Okay my waterworks are back again.... the hospital scene is back... please don't kill off Dr. K. Please don't kill off Dr. K. Please. My heart is racing.

Oh. Yay. They didn't. But Toby flatlined?

Why such a sad episode for Christmas? Not cool. Now I need to watch an episode of something funny to get myself over this. Gah.

4 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I don't think it was a hallucination (Randall still has the boat to show for it!), but I can see why people think it might be.  The fact that Beth's appearance sort of "broke the spell" and that the co-worker just walked back into the party as if nothing had happened were a little--I don't want to say unrealistic, but they would support the hallucination theory.  I just think that the closure of the scene was poorly directed.

Having the boat doens't mean anything - he still has the boat, because he never did speak to Andy about it, if he just imagined that scene.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, Big Mother said:

The one big question remaining in my head is... didn't Randall plan to talk to REbecca about everything that transpired, on Christmas eve? It didn't happen. Did Toby keeling over ruin that?

 

The way I saw it (the last scene of last week's ep) is that Randall told his mother how he felt and then let her know he needed time to process it.  I don't think it was "we'll talk about this on Christmas" as much as "Give me until Christmas to work this out."  Plus, I'm sure they spoke to each other in the meantime, if only to coordinate plans for the holiday.

[kili]

Quote

I am confused. Why are people convinced that the ledge thing was a hallucination? I missed all indications/hints of that in the episode, apparently.

These things make me suspicious:

1) Beth doesn't seem to see Andy even though he should be directly in her line of site. But, maybe Beth is very short-sited or only has eyes for Randall.

2) In the time that Randall turns around to tell her not to come onto the balcony, Andy gathers up his watch and ring, takes his drink off of the letter to Chloe, pockets them all and is in the middle of the party crowd. He must have been moving pretty briskly.  He goes from wanting to commit suicide, to gathering up his stuff and going home in a remarkably short period of time. But, maybe he is just very decisive.

3) Both Beth and Randall enter the balcony from the same spot, but Andy does not pass them to get back into the party. But maybe there are multiple exits from the balcony (though Andy is moving right to left in the party and he should be moving left to right if he came in through a door on the opposite side that Beth was on - perhaps the stage direction was wrong).

4) Randall is a little manic. Some people have become suspicious that it may indicate a mental problem. He does mention that he is depressed and buying expensive items. 

[photo fox]

18 minutes ago, Big Mother said:

I guess I'm a little put off by the fact taht she's Jewish and dating a non Jewish person and even going to his Xmas party.

Really? I love learning about other faith traditions. I wish someone would invite me to a Hanukkah party.

I'm catholic, and I know years ago interfaith marriage was a huge deal, but these days most people I know would just shrug and say, "at least he/she goes to church".

[kili]

Quote

I don't know about Kevin's finances.  Obviously, he has *some* money, but maybe not as much as we thought.  He seemed to be living quite a luxurious life in CA and it really isn't uncommon for actors, especially ones who are sort of B-list to blow their money when they have it and then,

He does have a brother who works in a financial world and a sister who does a pretty good job of looking out for him. It is possible he invested wisely. I read a book by an entertainment lawyer and his number one suggestion to his clients is to hire a good financial adviser. You never know when your entertainment career will be over, so don't count on the money lasting forever.

So, Randall could have set Kevin up with a financial advisor. Hopefully, it wasn't Andy.

[OtterMommy]

1 minute ago, kili said:

These things make me suspicious:

4) Randall is a little manic. Some people have become suspicious that it may indicate a mental problem. He does mention that he is depressed and buying expensive items. 

This alone is probably the one thing that makes me question it. I think Randall has at least one--how should I put this--questionable moment in every episode and the only one that can't be attributed to his mental state is his 'shroom trip.

I still don't know if I buy that it was a hallucination, but it doesn't matter to me either way.  The acting in that scene was amazing.

[MsChicklet]

This was the most I'd ever liked Toby. It wasn't just what he said, but how he said it and how he carried himself. He showed genuine humility, not the self-deprecation so many of us fat people learn as self-defense. I think he showed more respect for Kate, her feelings and her needs than he ever has. And Kate saw that asserting herself and saying what she wanted and needed paid off.

I got some of what Rebecca was feeling. She didn't know about Kate's bingeing or the anti-depressants. It's not just about Kate's weight. It's about the gulf between the two of them, created both by emotions and physical distance. Rebecca is facing that, as much as she loves her children, she isn't really a part of their day-to-day lives.

Randall has become more like Jack than he realizes. He is the one his family gravitates to when in need. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

7 minutes ago, MsChicklet said:

Randall has become more like Jack than he realizes.

Both Jack and he rhetorically asked whether there were too many presents under their respective trees!

[stanleyk]

5 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

No shark jump for me, but I agree this episode was overstuffed.  I could have done with one or the other, or neither, of the suicide jumper or Dr. K's trauma.    William's revelation and Toby's arrival (and possible departure) were dramatic enough, with Kevin's play and Kate's surgery providing enough forward motion.

I also thought it was overstuffed and no one story got any room to breathe. I think they shoehorned in Dr. Folksy in order to throw in another possible twist: who's on the operating table going into arrest at the end? And then you pan up to see Toby, etc., etc. The set-up was too contrived for me. 

I'm bothered, though, mostly with the possibility that they're done dealing with Randall's issues with Rebecca. They were a little frosty at the door, sure, but I'm concerned the show will leave it at that...some awkward silences and passive-aggressive remarks, but never really delving into it. As if that was all handled in the last episode, and now Randall is half-way to forgiveness, and next episode he's all the way to forgiveness, eveything fine now! I don't think we've really seen Rebecca's reaction, whether she truly understands Randall's feelings and whether she takes ownership of mistakes she may have made. I feel like there's tons more there to mine and I'm worried they're skating past (if for no other reason than they're going to run out of story if they resolve major issues this quickly all the time).

So perhaps this is too off-the-wall, but what I actually may have wanted to see was the majority of the episode spent with Randall and Suicidal Andy, with Randall gleaning more than just some pretty facile conclusions about forgiveness. And then some kind of real conversation with Rebecca at the end. Ditch the appendectomy, ditch the Sloane dinner and Toby showing up and keeling over, ditch Dr. Folksy. Really focus on this one massive storyline they set up for several episodes and then (at least in my mind) mostly dropped in favor of everyone getting a little story, which to me felt chaotic and unsatisfying. 

Like some other posters, I was also really taken aback that Randall didn't follow up with Andy - while simply interrupting someone contemplating suicide is often enough to stop them, I wouldn't exactly count on that alone. And for the record I don't think it was a hallucination. Among other things, I think Andy was putting his watch back on when Randall spotted him walking back through the party.)

Edited December 8, 2016 by stanleyk

[sasha206]

6 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

 

No shark jump for me, but I agree this episode was overstuffed.  I could have done with one or the other, or neither, of the suicide jumper or Dr. K's trauma.    William's revelation and Toby's arrival (and possible departure) were dramatic enough, with Kevin's play and Kate's surgery providing enough forward motion.

Overstuffed is exactly the right word.  

It's funny because when I typed that out, I hadn't even gone through he entire episode!  I hadn't gotten to the part where William turns out to be gay, the suicidal coworker, the second stranger-going-to-dysfunctional-family-dinner yet.  Too much.

[izabella]

21 minutes ago, stanleyk said:

So perhaps this is too off-the-wall, but what I actually may have wanted to see was the majority of the episode spent with Randall and Suicidal Andy, with Randall gleaning more than just some pretty facile conclusions about forgiveness. And then some kind of real conversation with Rebecca at the end. Ditch the appendectomy, ditch the Sloane dinner and Toby showing up and keeling over, ditch Dr. Folksy. Really focus on this one massive storyline they set up for several episodes and then (at least in my mind) mostly dropped in favor of everyone getting a little story, which to me felt chaotic and unsatisfying. 

I would have hated if Randall spent more time with Andy.  I needed him to spend time dealing with this directly with Rebecca.  I feel cheated out of seeing that discussion, and resented the time spent with Andy.  If Randall is going to learn about forgiveness, I don't want it to be while contemplating someone else's problems - some random person we don't know, never met, and will never see again.

[bichonblitz]

Suicide guy was shown walking back through the crowd at the party. It was no hallucination. 

1 hour ago, Big Mother said:

The one big question remaining in my head is... didn't Randall plan to talk to REbecca about everything that transpired, on Christmas eve? It didn't happen. Did Toby keeling over ruin that?

It's bugging me. They seemed fine with each other and Rebecca was laughing and having a grand old time. Let's not get sloppy now, writers. 

[Big Mother]

1 hour ago, photo fox said:

Really? I love learning about other faith traditions. I wish someone would invite me to a Hanukkah party.

I'm catholic, and I know years ago interfaith marriage was a huge deal, but these days most people I know would just shrug and say, "at least he/she goes to church".

It';s possible that Sloane is from a very liberal family, bc in a family where the Chanukah traditions are so well kept and where the story is told so beautifully and clearly, would probably be the type of family that would not want their daughter to intermarry. So it was a little off to me. But maybe they were blinded by him being the Manny :D.

[OtterMommy]

14 minutes ago, izabella said:

I would have hated if Randall spent more time with Andy.  I needed him to spend time dealing with this directly with Rebecca.  I feel cheated out of seeing that discussion, and resented the time spent with Andy.  If Randall is going to learn about forgiveness, I don't want it to be while contemplating someone else's problems - some random person we don't know, never met, and will never see again.

As I said, I enjoyed that scene because the acting was amazing and I think that it gave Randall the chance to have some epiphanies.  However, it is now not sitting as well with me.

I think it could have worked better if Andy were a character that we met at some point before he wanted to kill himself.  If we knew that Randall had some sort of connection with this character beyond the fact that Randall bought his boat.  I don't want to say that Randall is a self-absorbed character (I save that for Kevin), but he is someone who has enough stuff on his plate that he is, at the moment, a self-focused character.  To give him an opportunity to connect with someone outside his immediate sphere and see that we all have issues would have been effective.  However, because we don't know Andy from Adam, the audience just doesn't get it from that scene as well as they could.

[Big Mother]

12 minutes ago, bichonblitz said:

Suicide guy was shown walking back through the crowd at the party. It was no hallucination. 

 

I'm thinking that it was not a hallucination, but a figment of his imagination. He went upstairs to look for Andy, and then imagined the whole conversation in his brain and this is how he processed his own situation. We see Andy walking inside the party, because that's where he was the whole time - he was never on the ledge. Maybe Randall being so depressed that he went and bought a boat, led him to the ledge where he pictured someone else wanting to jump and Randall talking him down, bc Randall at that moment was feeling so low he was the one who wanted to get on th eledge? who knows.