Spaceman Spiff November 30, 2016 Share November 30, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sakura12 said: Sara tried but didn't kill Darkh, Barry did change the timeline. And we haven't seen many changes the Legends have done to the timeline while we are seeing all the changes Barry made. That makes a huge difference to me. I can't see things that aren't happening on screen. Sara didn't know about Reverse Flash (which to be honest is also Barry's fault. He's around because Barry let him go). She had no clue that Damian would get a friend that can time travel. Without RF, Damian didn't know where, when or who made that future come true. He would just know it happened. Without time travel how much of future could he have really changed. So it's really another Speedster that is messing with the timeline. You are correct in that we do not know yet if there are any repercussions to Sarah telling Darkh about his own future, and that Barry is partially responsible for the Reverse Flash even being around, although with time remnants being a thing in this verse who is to honestly say. Let us take a look back at all of Barry's time travel shenanigans. S1-E15 Thawne/Wells kills Cisco. Mardon kidnaps and beats the crap out of Joe, also sends a tsunami that would likely kill not only Iris, but destroy a large chunk of Central City and more than likely harm or kill some of its people. Barry time travels. RESULTS: Cisco saved. Joe saved. Iris saved. City and some of its people saved. 5 stars S1-E16 Thawne/Wells tells Barry..Don't time travel and mess with it (this coming from the eeevviiil time traveling speedster who altered time by going back in time and killing Nora Allen in the first place). Cisco get's vibe powers eventually, but that is more from the particle accelerator and vibrating Thawne hand in the chest right? RESULTS: Iris Kiss erased. Iris forgetting she expressed her love for Barry. Eddie punching Barry. (And none of this really matters because, relationship angst). Cisco and Dante kidnapped (but saved, because Cisco gave up Barry's secret identity to Cpt Cold) S1-E23 Barry travels back in time to attempt to save his mother. Changes his mind because Future Barry waves him off. RESULT: A black hole is formed, but not so much because of Barry's time travel, I mean a singularity doesn't occur any other time he time travels, so it has to be the wormhole that Thawne wanted created to get back to his time in his gerbil bubble because he lost his speed. I count this one on evvviiilll Thawne. S2-E1 Ronnie is dead closing the black hole. See above, I blame Thawne for that. ALL OF SEASON 2 Portals to other earths are now available because of the wormhole and singularity. But E2 Harrison Wells is responsible for creating Zoom and all the meta's on E2 who cross over. S2-E8 The crossover episode. Everyone dies by Savage's hand, Barry time travels. RESUTLS: Everyone is alive because they alter their attack plan on Savage. 5 stars (OK I'll take 2 stars off because the Hawks were saved, but that is still a win) S2-E11 No time travel, but time remnant Thawne's ruptured timeline almost kills Cisco. So not sure why no one in the current FlashPoint's rupture timeline is hurting Cisco.... S2-E17 Barry travels back in time to have eveeelll Thawne/Wells teach him how to be faster. RESULTS: Hartley is good now and his parents are okay with his being gay. That is a win win no? Oh and Time Wraiths, who appear because crimes against the timeline...yet haven't seen any since or because of FlashPoint. So why would Barry ever think that by allowing Thawne to once again kill his mother would it all of a sudden cause Iris to be mad at Joe about not telling her about the mom, Dante being killed by a drunk driver, having a new (evil) CSI partner, Caitlyn having powers and baby Sarah no longer existing. All of Barry's time travels had few changes with mostly positive results IMHO so why would he even think all these drastic changes would take place? And why would they anyway? (drama) I mean FlashPoint even wasn't that bad. The only bad thing during it was Joe being a drunk, and that is on Joe. Wally getting hurt/dying is the reason he left his happy life with mom and dad, and that's just because even in FlashPoint Wally sucks. Edited November 30, 2016 by Spaceman Spiff 9 Link to comment
GHScorpiosRule November 30, 2016 Share November 30, 2016 And if I'm not mistaken, the first time travel was by accident. He wasn't trying to time travel-he realized he must have and did what he could to prevent the tsunami and Cisco's murder-the latter which he didn't even know had happened. 1 Link to comment
Trini November 30, 2016 Share November 30, 2016 11 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: Iris didn't know about Oliver being the Green Arrow? First rule of crossovers: don't talk about crossovers.... apparently. 8 hours ago, maxineofarc said: ... so I'll just ask: why exactly the everloving hell was Iris wearing a cocktail minidress with thigh high boots and a 2" choker around the lab? ... Iris' outfits are routinely fabulously inappropriate; but I refuse to complain about Candice Patton looking good in clothes because the Wardrobe Dept. actually cares about Iris as a character, unlike, say... the writers room. 7 hours ago, Racj82 said: Yes Diggle has a right to be mad. All he's hearing is that he lost a daughter. Not the further logistics of that statement. Grief is often irrational. Let the man get a chance to get over it. Can Diggle (or anyone else in this timeline) really be mad though? Can he lose someone he never had? All he knows is that he had a different child in a different time. What if we get Baby Sara back? Then John Jr. is gone. Should he have to choose which child he loves more? The gender swap definitely affects the audience who knew Baby Sara, but I don't think it should really affect (this version of) Diggle who has always had a son. 3 Link to comment
bettername2come November 30, 2016 Share November 30, 2016 I think Diggle is and should be confused. He has a child he doesn't remember, and he knows he must have loved her, but as far as he's always known John Jr. is his only child. I don't think he would choose one over the other, but he knows the kind of father he is, knows he would have loved her with all his heart and who wouldn't feel something if they knew that their friend had changed their life due to carelessness? I think the concept of losing a daughter he never knew and can't actually grieve for struck a nerve in a way that he can't process the same way Cisco or Caitlin can. Now as an audience member I have the perfect future compromise: Diggle gets twins. 9 Link to comment
Lantern7 December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 I feel bad for Diggle. He's the rock of Arrow, where he only has the code name and helmet to fit in with Oliver's friends. And then comes Barry. And the Legends. And Supergirl. The rock winds up crumbling, and that's before finding out his son was originally a girl. If he hits up Lyla for industrial strength drugs after this story, I would not blame him one bit. He has a lot of catching up to do. 1 Link to comment
coolbeans3131 December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 21 hours ago, thuganomics85 said: And, really: I get it, Cisco. I get why you are mad. But maybe put the passive aggressiveness behind you, when you're dealing with a freaking alien invasion, dude. Priorities, man! I really wonder if this is all a set-up to make him an actual villain. This is what I've been thinking. When he had his vibe about he and Caitlin fighting, he just assumed she was the bad one. I'm thinking it was him. I almost hope so, because he is very annoying this season. 2 Link to comment
Cthulhudrew December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 If someone told me I had a relative that I never knew about because they'd accidentally erased them from time, I'd think they were absolutely nuts, and not care too much. ... Unless I lived in a world where people could fly, cast magic spells, and run fast enough that they could actually travel through time, and I'd actually seen those things happen. Then I suspect I'd be a bit peeved to know that my life had been altered beyond my control- and wonder what else might have changed and why- even if I didn't actually have any memory of it myself. And I'm not even a parent, so who knows how I'd react to that news? (Especially if the person responsible was someone I liked and admired and- up until this point- didn't really have any particular reason to mistrust their judgment.) 3 minutes ago, coolbeans3131 said: This is what I've been thinking. When he had his vibe about he and Caitlin fighting, he just assumed she was the bad one. I'm thinking it was him. I almost hope so, because he is very annoying this season. Agreed. More and more I think that's the "Betrayed By Someone We Trust!" swerve the show is doing this season. (They do it every season.) They're trying to convince us it's going to be Caitlin, and even show us that she doesn't trust herself, but it's really going to be Cisco pulling a Dark Willow. 5 Link to comment
BkWurm1 December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 16 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said: They're trying to convince us it's going to be Caitlin, and even show us that she doesn't trust herself, but it's really going to be Cisco pulling a Dark Willow. I'd be for it in the short term since it fits the narrative but it still leaves us with a really unpleasant Cisco. 4 Link to comment
Lantern7 December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 I did like the part with Huckster making his pitch, and Cisco was lightly banging his head on the table. I knows he's way too pissy these days, but that was funny. 6 Link to comment
maczero December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 20 hours ago, HeroLeague said: So ridiculous and hypocritical, the legends should be the last people to lecture anyone on tinkering with time . Many of them have done something at one point to mess with time. Sara decided not to kill Darkh yes still gave vital information to a supervillain that could have an effect on history and future, and Stein now has a daughter due to interfering with time. They shouldnt be Barry's fans, but maybe they shouldnt be a bit more understanding and not judge so much. Agreed. 19 hours ago, Maverick said: I think Barry should tell Cisco that he really created Flashpoint by going back in time to save Dante at Cisco's request but Cisco couldn't deal with the consequences and asked Barry to undo it, thus creating this timeline and that Barry's was just trying to be a good friend and take the hit by saying he did it saving his mother. Sure it's a lie, but if Cisco lives with it for a few months maybe he'll realize how big a hypocrite he's being by being mad at Barry for doing the same thing Cisco was begging him to do. That is brilliant but one of the douchiest things you could do to a friend. 17 hours ago, BkWurm1 said: My first thought as well too but then it made sense that she'd be even more upset since while she absolutely would understand wanting to do it, in the end she didn't and she's been living with the knowledge that she has the ability with the Waverider of going back and saving Laurel, but right away Rip explained why she couldn't and though she's still struggled with not killing DD, she hasn't and so for Barry, the guy that is supposed to be unquestionably the hero, to do what she wanted to do but knew was wrong, must have been even harder to take. Ray's astonishment also worked for me since he's the rule follower of the bunch. The funny thing about Ray is that he's also in the same boat as Sara, Rip and Barry. He lost his fiance to violence, yet we've never heard a peep from him about going back in time to save her. Hell when he did meet her in the past, he didn't seem all that gobsmacked to be in her presence again. 17 hours ago, Kromm said: Too. Many. Warehouse. Sets. And they weren't even supposed to be a single location. The heroes met in a warehouse. The President and his advisers met in another warehouse. The Dominators hid the fake President in yet another warehouse. Supergirl chased Barry through at least three MORE warehouse locations. TOO! MANY! WAREHOUSE! SETS! I thought the scene where the President and his advisers was a hangar. 2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said: You are correct in that we do not know yet if there are any repercussions to Sarah telling Darkh about his own future, and that Barry is partially responsible for the Reverse Flash even being around, although with time remnants being a thing in this verse who is to honestly say. Let us take a look back at all of Barry's time travel shenanigans. S1-E15 Thawne/Wells kills Cisco. Mardon kidnaps and beats the crap out of Joe, also sends a tsunami that would likely kill not only Iris, but destroy a large chunk of Central City and more than likely harm or kill some of its people. Barry time travels. RESULTS: Cisco saved. Joe saved. Iris saved. City and some of its people saved. 5 stars S1-E16 Thawne/Wells tells Barry..Don't time travel and mess with it (this coming from the eeevviiil time traveling speedster who altered time by going back in time and killing Nora Allen in the first place). Cisco get's vibe powers eventually, but that is more from the particle accelerator and vibrating Thawne hand in the chest right? RESULTS: Iris Kiss erased. Iris forgetting she expressed her love for Barry. Eddie punching Barry. (And none of this really matters because, relationship angst). Cisco and Dante kidnapped (but saved, because Cisco gave up Barry's secret identity to Cpt Cold) S1-E23 Barry travels back in time to attempt to save his mother. Changes his mind because Future Barry waves him off. RESULT: A black hole is formed, but not so much because of Barry's time travel, I mean a singularity doesn't occur any other time he time travels, so it has to be the wormhole that Thawne wanted created to get back to his time in his gerbil bubble because he lost his speed. I count this one on evvviiilll Thawne. S2-E1 Ronnie is dead closing the black hole. See above, I blame Thawne for that. ALL OF SEASON 2 Portals to other earths are now available because of the wormhole and singularity. But E2 Harrison Wells is responsible for creating Zoom and all the meta's on E2 who cross over. S2-E8 The crossover episode. Everyone dies by Savage's hand, Barry time travels. RESUTLS: Everyone is alive because they alter their attack plan on Savage. 5 stars (OK I'll take 2 stars off because the Hawks were saved, but that is still a win) S2-E11 No time travel, but time remnant Thawne's ruptured timeline almost kills Cisco. So not sure why no one in the current FlashPoint's rupture timeline is hurting Cisco.... S2-E17 Barry travels back in time to have eveeelll Thawne/Wells teach him how to be faster. RESULTS: Hartley is good now and his parents are okay with his being gay. That is a win win no? Oh and Time Wraiths, who appear because crimes against the timeline...yet haven't seen any since or because of FlashPoint. So why would Barry ever think that by allowing Thawne to once again kill his mother would it all of a sudden cause Iris to be mad at Joe about not telling her about the mom, Dante being killed by a drunk driver, having a new (evil) CSI partner, Caitlyn having powers and baby Sarah no longer existing. All of Barry's time travels had few changes with mostly positive results IMHO so why would he even think all these drastic changes would take place? And why would they anyway? (drama) I mean FlashPoint even wasn't that bad. The only bad thing during it was Joe being a drunk, and that is on Joe. Wally getting hurt/dying is the reason he left his happy life with mom and dad, and that's just because even in FlashPoint Wally sucks. Thanks for the recap of Barry's time travels. I'd say the net results do seem as if more lives were saved by Barry's time jaunts than were lost. However, the ongoing threat of dimensional breaches might surpass the potential loss of life from the tsunami. I also agree that Flashpoint wasn't that bad. Cisco was a billionaire. Caitlyn didn't seem to be unhappy as an optician. Wally and Iris enjoyed themselves as a sibling crime fighting duo. Oh and Wally got himself killed because he started doing an end zone dance before the villain was soundly defeated. Although Barry probably should have helped during the fight. 3 Link to comment
Bruinsfan December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 8 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said: I enjoyed that too (though Oliver, if Kara didn't hold back at all, she'd put the whole team in the hospital). OTOH, Supergirl's invulnerability is nerfed a fair amount on her own show (because drama). I feel like over there, the atom suit blasts or Firestorm's blasts would have at least stung a little. Maybe the Flash writers have read the comics but not actually watched her show? :-) I actually liked the treatment in the crossover where Kara is as overwhelmingly powerful as she should be, and that is gotten around via vulnerability to mind control or strategic use of Barry's greater speed rather than having her react in slow motion, forget she has enhanced senses, or repeatedly knocked for a loop by attacks that shouldn't so much as muss her hair. I just don't get why she and Mon-El are so much less impressive and, well, super this season. Her series is inexplicably still capable of opening the checkbook and depicting an impressive super-powered battle with collateral damage when J'onn and/or M'gann are involved, but the show title isn't Martian Manhunter. 8 Link to comment
ElectricBoogaloo December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 (edited) I really hate that Iris and Joe are so insistent that Wally shouldn't be using his powers. I get that Wally needs to slow his roll and train. But at the same time, how much training did Barry really have before he started running around Central City trying to help people? The way Iris was talking in this episode, it sounds like she doesn't want him to train at all. She didn't want the others encouraging him, she didn't want him to see the data from his running, she wanted them to say they had to run more tests, etc. I understand that she doesn't want him to get hurt, but ultimately that's not her decision to make. What if Joe and Barry told her that being a reporter was dangerous and they didn't want her to do it? Would she just quit her job? What if she told Joe that being a cop was too risky? Would he just retire? Isn't Wally in college now? As long as he's over 18, I don't think they should be telling him what to do. Even if he's still in high school, I don't think they should stop him from developing his powers. The best thing they can do for Wally is let him start training so that he can understand how to use his powers. Why not let Barry train him in the safety of the lab? At least that way he can learn firsthand from someone else how to use the speed force. I don't understand HR's burning desire to open Star Labs to the public. That seems like such a stupid idea since Team Flash is based there. Does HR really think it's a good idea to let random people wander around the building where the Flash runs in and out and where they have metahumans locked in the basement? I understand Cisco is upset about his brother being dead, and I'm even going to give him the benefit of the doubt and pretend that he and Dante had a great relationship before he died. But insisting that Barry tell everyone else the truth about Flashpoint right before going out on a mission was a dick move. There was nothing to be gained from that. It was selfish because Cisco just wanted everyone else to be mad at Barry. I loved that Oliver was so non-judgmental about Barry going back in time and creating a new timeline. Heh, I thought that they would bond over their self-flagellating, guilt, and need to blame themselves. I know that Barry was selfish for going back in time and changing the past, but I appreciate that Oliver understood it and said that he would go back and save his parents if he could. Edited December 1, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo 8 Link to comment
Aeryn13 December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 Quote I get that Wally needs to slow his roll and train. While he is certainly eager to get in on the heroics, I didn`t get the impression he even wanted to run out and defeat the alien invasion all by himself. He is doing tests, he is trying to train, he showed up at the warehouse with the intention to train with the others. Iris reacted incredibly unsupportive in all of their scenes. It was just a constant string of "no, no, no". With a good helping of telling him basically how much he sucks. How is that supposed to help? It will likely only lead him to do something stupid to try and prove her wrong. And why the hell can`t he at least train with the superhero teams? Noone is saying to send him on big missions but at least work with him. She even demands they all lie to Wally about doing much worse than he is. Earth 2-Wells wasn`t even that bad about Jessie. Even when Wally did help in the end, I didn`t think it was a crazy stunt or anything. His help was needed and he just zipped on by three people and knocked them out with his speed. That`s the stuff he CAN do. Joe came across ten times more supportive and less overprotective than Iris. I felt it was a weird overreaction on her part that didn`t fit with the character. She has never been like that. 8 Link to comment
ElleMo December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said: I don't understand HR's burning desire to open Star Labs to the public. That seems like such a stupid idea since Team Flash is based there. Does HR really think it's a good idea to let random people wander around the building where the Flash runs in and out and where they have metahumans locked in the basement? He mentioned it is because Cisco, Barry, Kaitlyn, Joe et al. walk in and out of there all the time and eventually someone will start to wonder why all these people are in and out of this place. It would make more sense to say that it is opened again for research, which explains the goings on but does not expose them to the public. Edited December 1, 2016 by ElleMo 1 Link to comment
ACW December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 On 11/29/2016 at 9:20 PM, Morrigan2575 said: Forgot to mention, unbelievably stupid to have Supergirl just stand there while the aliens kill the President Well, it wasn't *her* President. 4 Link to comment
Morrigan2575 December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, ACW said: Well, it wasn't *her* President. Still stupid. What's the point of bringing on this super powered Alien and, have her do nothing? 1 Link to comment
Chicago Redshirt December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 To respond to Maczero's list of Barry's time travel: Barry's going back in time to save his mother is completely on him. Thawne explained beforehand with the particular method of time travel being used, Barry had to have everything work out just right or there could be a world/universe swallowing singularity that would form. Barry decided that saving his mom was worth the risk. It remains the stupidest, most selfish decision I think I've seen a superhero make. And I watched all of Smallville. :) 3 Link to comment
DearEvette December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 19 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said: If someone told me I had a relative that I never knew about because they'd accidentally erased them from time, I'd think they were absolutely nuts, and not care too much. ... Unless I lived in a world where people could fly, cast magic spells, and run fast enough that they could actually travel through time, and I'd actually seen those things happen. Then I suspect I'd be a bit peeved to know that my life had been altered beyond my control- and wonder what else might have changed and why- even if I didn't actually have any memory of it myself. And I'm not even a parent, so who knows how I'd react to that news? This is why I can't wrap my head around the Diggle anger. He knows there are other dimensions and other timelines and time travel and magic. So Barry saying, well splintered a timeline I was in before and in that one you have a daughter, should be a matter of curiosity and wonder but not necessarily anger. If someone came to me and said they changed my timeline and the two sons I have now were two actually daughters I be like 'Huh? did they do chores without complaining? Because these two are always complaining.' I don't know those two daughters they theoretical. I know these two sons, they are my reality. In this timeline, the only people who knew about baby Sara were Barry and the fans of the show. So Diggle's anger feels more like fan service to me than really about how someone in his shoes would really react. 5 Link to comment
KirkB December 1, 2016 Share December 1, 2016 You expressed what I've been thinking a lot better than I could, DearEvette. I get Diggle being a bit freaked out by the thought that his life is somehow different from how it used to be, but in this reality he has a son. He's always and only ever had a son. He can't possibly miss a daughter that, as far as he is aware, never actually existed. The whole thing was done, rather ham-fistedly, to affect us, not Diggle. 5 Link to comment
Trini December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 Yeah, I can see the Legends Crew being upset, but Arrow and Flash characters shouldn't be much affected. 1 Link to comment
iRarelyWatchTV36 December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 (edited) (commentary of the whole Heroes-vs-Aliens x-over, Flash-heavy) Supergirl: Other than the last 45 seconds, was a misleading CW promo for the whole event. (glad I spoiled myself so I wasn't forced to watch the whole 42 minutes for a payoff I actually ended up getting, again, the very next night on Flash) The Flash: Let him be, Papa and Sis West - really looking at you right now, Iris. Wally has powers and he isn't going to just sit on his thumbs and not use them. Best get training to handle them. Cisco. Dude. No amount of angst is going to change the timeline again or bring the brother you were never even close to Dante back from the dead. You've. Got. To. Let. It. Go. At. Some. Point. Calling Barry out while trying to work on how to stop an alien invasion/world destruction? *smh* Maybe I am being hypocritical myself in doing so, seeing as how the LoT's x-over episode is the first time I will have ever watched that show, but aren't they being the slightest bit hypocritical on taking the 'high and mighty' road about the consequences of changing past events and/or timelines? HR training Wally to use his speed and powers. Yeah. That is going to end so well. I know it was just played for humor, but you didn't have to help Oliver (bagging on Barry for involving him and then everything going tits up). What was the real point in Oliver naming Barry team leader? Just because the x-over started out on Flash [honestly, the SG ep was not really involved at all]?? Seriously, everyone saw right through how Oliver was the real shot-caller and Barry was just following his lead. So what do they have planned for next year's - or in the future - crossover event(s)? That 40-year-new message from future!Barry was totally referring to something else, and not the goings-on they dealt with the past 3 nights. Maybe a little too quick and easy on the resolution to their not-deserved-angst, at least on the LoT crew's part, to accepting and forgiving Barry for 'Flashpoint' Arrow: Coming from someone who hasn't watched this show since the S3 finale, this was a really good episode that reminded me of its 'glory days', good to see the show still has it in it, even if just for big showcases like the 100th episode. However..... ... as a part of the all-shows crossover event, it was mostly unnecessary to even remember it was on except for the last 4-5 minutes. Not sure why they even involved Barry & Kara, other than giving the hockey-mask dude a reason to be a bigot towards decent non-normal humans & aliens, who then got his eyes opened after they saved him and finished his mission for him. Legends of Tomorrow: So, nice to see that the "secrets and lies provides most the interpersonal drama" CW trope (especially on its DC properties) lives on, alive and well, in this show as well - what with the secret between Stein/Jax about Stein's daughter, and will have to keep secret/lie about her to the rest Cisco better ease up now, realizing how easy it is to forget the consequences to altering time in the quest to "do the right thing" "Where's Barry?" "Oliver's trying to talk him out of it (surrendering to the Dominators)." .... a while later .... "I'm handing myself over, guys, its not up for debate." Good talk, Oliver. Of which we saw nothing of. Really? Should have been an important moment, IMO. So I guess Iris and (especially) Thea decided to go on vacation in the big finale? Thea got involved because of aliens, was taken with the others for Arrow's part of xover, and when the time comes to actually fight the aliens? Total disappearing act. And as for Iris, a "Barry for the world" trade off seems kinda important, considering their personal history and lives, but not even a mention of her. Just like every other non-Flash episode of crossovers, Iris (& Candace) gets totally shafted. After all the crap he had to take in admitting the 'Flashpoint' stuff - plus all season long in his own show - Barry [because of Flashpoint] ends up being the catalyst for the whole crossover. Poor guy just can't get a break. I'm almost starting to wonder if Flashpoint was created/played out on Flash just so this crossover would happen this season, I mean, it really sorta looks like it from this (current) point of view. As an overall grade for the whole crossover, I have to give a B-. Loving the great idea employed, that of a 'JL'-like team-up of the CWDC heroes, but it just wasn't handled with the greatest of execution or use of allotted time. Only 2 series of the 4 total actually made this feel like a 'universe crossover'. 5 minutes, combined, was spent between SG and Arrow to help out. So much more could have been fleshed out, like; character interactions, the whole point of the aliens coming/JSA's involvement back in '51, seeing what the government was doing BTS, etc. They need to seriously consider making an appropriately-lengthed, timewise, TV movie for all other crossover events. Some of the scene cuts were very jarring and abrupt. And I just realized after it was all over. So, the aliens came because of the potential threat of metahumans, and were after Flash (Barry) because of his changing the timeline (Flashpoint), right? But when having him at their mercy right at the beginning of the whole thing - when they streamed out of the drop ship when Barry investigated the "meteor", and him being on the ground and dazed from the reaction to touching the ship - they didn't capture him immediately. Just... what!?!?!?! Edited December 6, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36 6 Link to comment
Karlophe December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 On 11/29/2016 at 7:15 PM, TDT said: During the scene where Barry admitted to messing things up with Flashpoint,wouldve loved to see them form a line and alternately shaking and slapping him,like in" Airplane!" I posted my share of Airplane fantasies too at the beginning of the season (and I happen to love Barry, so much of my upset came not only from anger, but disappointment and hurt), but so help me...if ever there was case of "Be Careful What You Wish For", this was it. After episodes of Barry taking hit after hit, this was just too much. Once Sara - Sara! One of my very favorite humans in this universe -! took a turn, I was done. I half expected Baby Bruce to portal over from Gotham and start berating Barry for the deaths of his parents at that point. And the way the entire situation came about was just so awful. I know I'm in good company in thinking Cisco was at his absolute ugliest this episode. His understandable anger has been a plot point all season, but frankly, the lengths he took his bitterness to here shocked me. For a man who repeatedly told Barry that things were not okay between them but he wasn't going to allow his personal grievances to disrupt the bigger picture, he took every opportunity he had to do the exact opposite, publicly, and in the cruelest way possible. His passive aggressive jab at him to Kara, his childish storming away from him during his conversation with Ray, and even his outright rudeness to Iris (who wasn't even talking about Barry...not that it mattered) and Felicity when she expressed concern are all bad enough on their own. But snarling at Barry to put his head on a chopping block before a team he'd just been appointed leader of right before they went off to fight an alien invasion was a step too far. It accomplished nothing in that moment but to fracture the team and humiliate Barry. Am I supposed to think that to him it was worth it? Just to take another shot at Barry? Even in his worrying emotional state, anger and the need accountability don't account for this, at all. I don't recognize him. This isn't Cisco. Still, as bad as that was, (and I am worried because I am convinced there is something deeper going on now) what got to me the most was him saying he voted Oliver for team leader because he trusted him. Barry has been taking it all on the chin so far, but he looked like he was barely holding it together after that, and I don't blame him. For all that Barry is seen as coddled and pampered, outside of his core family group he really has very few actual friends, so he holds them closely. Having arguably his best friend (I'm not counting Iris/family in this) turn on him to the point that he is actively trying to humiliate him has to hurt, no matter what the circumstances. As a viewer, it made me question who Cisco, this Cisco, really is as a person, and I hate that. Whether it's an increasingly unbalanced reaction to grief or Flashpoint has literally left us with another person, I just want our old Cisco back. That said, Oliver. He was the undisputed heart, soul, and backbone of the hour. And what an hour it was! There was so much to love here, from the credits, to the musical cues (I expected the SG theme at some point during Kara's entrance and was not disappointed, but screamed out loud in pure delight when Ollie and Sara went hand to hand and the LoA music started playing) to the clever winks like Thea telling Barry he should really do "something" with the place. All of the character interactions were everything I could have hoped for. I loved all of the little callbacks to past crossovers, the visuals were amazing (I may dream about Oliver's three pronged arrow sequence) and a race between Flash and Supergirl? Pure, manic joy. I can't tell you how many times I rewound that sequence, just to look at it in awe. That it ended with Barry finally, finally getting to use his intelligence was even better. Luring her after him and tricking her into phasing through him was hands down the highlight of the episode for me (with the Barry and Oliver moments being some of the best, in my opinion, they've ever done). So much good stuff to dig through later on. Just didn't want to end on a note of doom and gloom, because this episode was literal lightning in a bottle, and I otherwise enjoyed it immensely. 8 Link to comment
KirkB December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 8 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said: And I just realized after it was all over. So, the aliens came because of the potential threat of metahumans, and were after Flash (Barry) because of his changing the timeline (Flashpoint), right? But when having him at their mercy right at the beginning of the whole thing - when they streamed out of the drop ship when Barry investigated the "meteor", and him being on the ground and dazed from the reaction to touching the ship - they didn't capture him immediately. Just... what!?!?!?! I think the idea, based on speculation from a couple of the other shows forums, is that the Dominators came to Earth to see if the metas were doing anything worthy of their...well, domination. When they first arrived they didn't know anything about Barry so they ignored him. They grabbed Oliver and the other non metas who were opposing them to scan their minds and found out about Flashpoint. It was only then they decided their treaty or whatever it was had been violated and told their human lackey they wanted the head of Barry Allen or the Earth would suffer. If that's true though, it wasn't communicated very well through any of the shows. 3 Link to comment
MaggieG December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 On 11/30/2016 at 8:59 PM, Lantern7 said: I did like the part with Huckster making his pitch, and Cisco was lightly banging his head on the table. I knows he's way too pissy these days, but that was funny. That made me laugh too. And when Barry was first explaining his plan to Team Arrow, at one point Stephen Amell had his hands up and looked so exasperated, that made me chuckle as well. 2 Link to comment
Velocity23 December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 (edited) There was a scene cut for time, in which he has a msg for Iris (from the LOT part of the crossover). https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/804555933028216832 Edited December 2, 2016 by Velocity23 5 Link to comment
mac123x December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 On 11/29/2016 at 11:58 PM, Jediknight said: While the virus does do that on Earth 3, there's no telling what it would do on Earth 1. The virus could be deadly to humans from Earth 1. It's better to play it safe than to unleash a virus, when you don't know what it will do. Test it on Wally. Maybe Cisco too. 1 Link to comment
Bruinsfan December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 I wish, once the fireworks were over and the earth had been saved, someone like Sara or Diggle or best of all Oliver had raked Cisco over the coals for causing discord and hamstringing inter-team trust just as they were dealing with a crisis that endangered the whole planet. Most of Barry's supporting cast are too protective/enabling of Cisco's juvenile behavior to call him on it, but I'd have liked to see some of the battle scarred veterans bringing the hammer down and pointing out how many people's brothers (and sisters, parents, children, etc.) could have died thanks to his petulant hissyfit. 7 Link to comment
GHScorpiosRule December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 Well, for those that don't watch Legends of Tomorrow, Cisco had an epiphany* about Barry, and realized what an utter passive aggressive petulant douche bag he was being. See, he also went back in time, along with some dude from that show, Nate? and saved an Alien who then came back in 2016, and decided he and his band of aliens were agonna kill Barry and all metahumans (which would include his own damn self). And Cisco realized that he didn't mean to cause this armageddon that he now set into motion, which had Barry willing to sacrifice himself, because Alien said if they turned him over so they could kill him, then they wouldn't kill everyone else. Which was a lie, and so they didn't. Now why the assholes of this show (the runners and writers) didn't have that happen on this show, I couldn't tell you. And I described Cisco as I did, because again, before the epiphany, he reiterated to Felicity how Barry "was NOT" his friend. And if I could have, I would have reached into my teevee and bitchslapped him. Look, he was angry that Barry lied, and that his going into the past and returning, might have caused the drunk driving accident sooner, rather than later, or at all. Or maybe it would have happened. The point is, they were best friends. Cisco, in his grief and anger could have said they weren't friends anymore. The way he said it to Felicity and even Kara, came off as they were never friends to begin with, and what Barry did, cemented they never would be friends ever, ever again. So with this epiphany, I'm hoping the future that Cisco vibed between him and Caitlin, does not come to pass now. And that it turns out it's them fighting Alchemy and Savitar instead. *I didn't spoiler tag because this was part of a crossover event that concluded on Legends. 4 Link to comment
Aeryn13 December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 (edited) Quote Or maybe it would have happened. The point is, they were best friends. Cisco, in his grief and anger could have said they weren't friends anymore. To me it was clear that that was what he meant. And while Felicity meant well, she basically told him he needed to forgive Barry right now. It`s still only been a couple of days since he found out. I don`t think that is remotely an unreasonable time-table to not get over it. I think trying to push the issue with Cisco was a big mistake and only led him to digging his heels in more. And considering Felicity knows to hold a grudge, I found her pretty hypocritical in their scenes together. If she was in Cisco`s place, she would have acted much, much worse. It`s somewhat weird that they resolved it all in a different show. Probably gonna make its way into the previouslies to catch up viewers who didn`t watch the other x-over shows. Not that I found the resolution earned really because the situations were not really comparable in terms of motivation. And the friendship healing could have been so much more fulfilling but they rushed through Flashpoint, they rushed through the consequences, they rushed through the emotional fall-out so it shouldn`t surprise me. Quote And Cisco realized that he didn't mean to cause this armageddon The aliens didn`t come because the mini strike team decided to save one in the past. They came because of Flashpoint fanning their meta-hatred again. Edited December 2, 2016 by Aeryn13 1 Link to comment
KirkB December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: Not that I found the resolution earned really because the situations were not really comparable in terms of motivation. In motivation, no, but I do think the situations are comparable. Regardless of his reasons, Barry willingly traveled through time, and as a result things (like Dante dying) happened that he wasn't aware of and certainly didn't intend. Cisco willing traveled through time, and a result things happened he wasn't aware of and certainly didn't intend. Besides, a lot of people didn't seem to like mopey, angry Cisco, but by himself he was never going to just "get over" his brother dying in a world Barry created, when he didn't originally die at all. He needed something pretty big to change his point of view and this a decent way. Edited December 2, 2016 by KirkB 3 Link to comment
Aeryn13 December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 Quote In motivation, no, but I do think the situations are comparable. I know but it`s not the situations I blame them for. If Barry felt he had to time-travel as a strategic move and the same bad Flashpoint consequences had arisen, I wouldn`t have been angry with him and would have defended him from everyone`s anger. Bad luck happens. That`s how I feel about the actions of Cisco and the members of the strike team. What I`m angry for with Barry is why he created Flashpoint. So to me it was the writing creating a false parallel to lightswitch Cisco back to Barry`s side. I felt bad for Barry during the x-over but I think it was necessary for him to experience those consequences and take that anger. I didn`t think it went on too long or was that much over the top or that Cisco was horrible. I like them as friends but I found this unfulfilling. At the very least they could have saved it for a Flash episode. 1 Link to comment
KirkB December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said: So to me it was the writing creating a false parallel to lightswitch Cisco back to Barry`s side. I felt bad for Barry during the x-over but I think it was necessary for him to experience those consequences and take that anger. I didn`t think it went on too long or was that much over the top or that Cisco was horrible. I like them as friends but I found this unfulfilling. At the very least they could have saved it for a Flash episode. I agree with you about Barry and the anger he was getting. I mean, even he admitted he deserved it, which is why he kept telling the others to let Cisco say what he needed to say. And I absolutely agree with the part I bolded. Cisco being at odds with Barry was a major plot element, and while I'm glad they're on the mend it really should have been explored, at length, on their own show rather than almost as a throwaway here. 1 Link to comment
GHScorpiosRule December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 I don't know. Cisco was already angry with Barry because he wouldn't go back in time to save Dante. This was the timeline where Barry was in the alternate timeline where both his parents were alive, so that Barry wasn't aware of that friction when he returned--to find out that Iris and Joe were on the outs, and that he'd been working with Julian for a year. And THEN discovered Dante was dead. And realized it was his creating Flashpoint that led to Dante being killed by a drunk driver, right? So it's not as if Cisco's been angry with Barry for only one episode. The friendship was already rocked by Barry's refusal to bring Dante back to life. And then to learn that Dante was dead because of Flashpoint (though I'm still sticking to maybe it was the time traveling the Legends were doing! Or that Thawne did something to make this happen!), and so anger and grief are back, but this time, to have Cisco break off his friendship with Barry. So for me, Cisco acting this way hasn't been only a day or two. But because the showrunners love to have Barry keep going back in time, or rather doing the time traveling shit (which, frankly, always gives me a headache), that they'll do something so that Dante isn't dead after all, but their caustic/hostile relationship will have remain intact. Because that's how they roll. 2 Link to comment
Lantern7 December 2, 2016 Share December 2, 2016 Also, Cisco doesn't know about Barry's first crack at time-manipulation, where Cisco was a tech billionaire. If he ever found out about that, he might hate Barry all over again. And that's not factoring in whether Dante was alive in that timeline or not. 1 Link to comment
Spaceman Spiff December 3, 2016 Share December 3, 2016 On 12/1/2016 at 1:48 PM, Chicago Redshirt said: To respond to Maczero's list of Barry's time travel: Barry's going back in time to save his mother is completely on him. Thawne explained beforehand with the particular method of time travel being used, Barry had to have everything work out just right or there could be a world/universe swallowing singularity that would form. Barry decided that saving his mom was worth the risk. It remains the stupidest, most selfish decision I think I've seen a superhero make. And I watched all of Smallville. :) @MACZERO was quoting my post and I feel compelled to respond. I just rewatched S1-E23 to verify what I thought I knew. Evil time travelling Thawne from the future explained? Professor Stein is the one who found that a singularity could be formed, which means Thawne withheld that information from everyone. Thawne explained the conditions to be met to avoid it. Get back in time ( 1 minute and 52 seconds) and close the wormhole. The wormhole Thawne needed to get back to his time because he lost his touch with the speed force and couldn't do it on his own. No other time that Barry time traveled did he need to create a wormhole by colliding with a hydrogen particle, which makes me think Thawne wanted the singularity to form because he would have been back safe in his future time line. That was all for evil Thawne. Barry did get back in the allotted 1:52 and the wormhole was closed down. All conditions were met. Unfortunately after Eddie shoots himself and wipes future Thawne from existence, the wormhole reforms and a singularity is created. People who wanted Barry to do it. Barry Yes Joe Yes Henry No Iris Do something for YOU for once Caitlyn Yes Cisco No Eddie and Stein I guess yes since I never heard them say no. 2 Link to comment
DigitalCount December 3, 2016 Share December 3, 2016 Honestly, even though I enjoyed the Flash part of Invasion the most of the three, I think it's worth watching the whole thing even if you're not currently watching any of the other shows. The Supergirl bit is negligible. But I legitimately got chills when Barry was staring up at Ray, Kara and Jax descending from the heavens like three angry gods ready to mess him up, lol. Somehow people always manage to look more imposing when they're evil. 3 Link to comment
CooperTV December 4, 2016 Share December 4, 2016 This was the most fun of the four episodes, as far as the crossover goes. Even though I already barely remember what it was actually about. Oh well. The cold opening was nice, and the superheros teaming up was also well done. The Flash has this upbeat vibe that makes everyone overtly quippy but maybe in that kind of crossover it's not a bad thing? IDK The fact that it ended in the majority of the crossover action being everyone vs everyone else, it was kind of letdown. I forgot how tedious The Flash interpersonal drama tends to be, though. Barry tragically (and self-centered) suffering from his mistakes and whining how he won't go fighting the hostile aliens because he's sad and guilty? Present! Everyone giving Barry pep talks (that moonlight as exposition in case of Oliver, since Ollie retold his tragic past in order for people to be invested in the Arrow episode where it was revenant the most). Of course! Now, since Barry has so much supporters, Iris was relegated to mommy role to Wally, and the entire subplot was nothing but nagging and juvenile nonsense. *sigh* 1 Link to comment
immortalfrieza December 7, 2016 Share December 7, 2016 On 11/30/2016 at 4:41 PM, Spaceman Spiff said: You are correct in that we do not know yet if there are any repercussions to Sarah telling Darkh about his own future, and that Barry is partially responsible for the Reverse Flash even being around, although with time remnants being a thing in this verse who is to honestly say. Let us take a look back at all of Barry's time travel shenanigans. S1-E15 Thawne/Wells kills Cisco. Mardon kidnaps and beats the crap out of Joe, also sends a tsunami that would likely kill not only Iris, but destroy a large chunk of Central City and more than likely harm or kill some of its people. Barry time travels. RESULTS: Cisco saved. Joe saved. Iris saved. City and some of its people saved. 5 stars S1-E16 Thawne/Wells tells Barry..Don't time travel and mess with it (this coming from the eeevviiil time traveling speedster who altered time by going back in time and killing Nora Allen in the first place). Cisco get's vibe powers eventually, but that is more from the particle accelerator and vibrating Thawne hand in the chest right? RESULTS: Iris Kiss erased. Iris forgetting she expressed her love for Barry. Eddie punching Barry. (And none of this really matters because, relationship angst). Cisco and Dante kidnapped (but saved, because Cisco gave up Barry's secret identity to Cpt Cold) S1-E23 Barry travels back in time to attempt to save his mother. Changes his mind because Future Barry waves him off. RESULT: A black hole is formed, but not so much because of Barry's time travel, I mean a singularity doesn't occur any other time he time travels, so it has to be the wormhole that Thawne wanted created to get back to his time in his gerbil bubble because he lost his speed. I count this one on evvviiilll Thawne. S2-E1 Ronnie is dead closing the black hole. See above, I blame Thawne for that. ALL OF SEASON 2 Portals to other earths are now available because of the wormhole and singularity. But E2 Harrison Wells is responsible for creating Zoom and all the meta's on E2 who cross over. S2-E8 The crossover episode. Everyone dies by Savage's hand, Barry time travels. RESUTLS: Everyone is alive because they alter their attack plan on Savage. 5 stars (OK I'll take 2 stars off because the Hawks were saved, but that is still a win) S2-E11 No time travel, but time remnant Thawne's ruptured timeline almost kills Cisco. So not sure why no one in the current FlashPoint's rupture timeline is hurting Cisco.... S2-E17 Barry travels back in time to have eveeelll Thawne/Wells teach him how to be faster. RESULTS: Hartley is good now and his parents are okay with his being gay. That is a win win no? Oh and Time Wraiths, who appear because crimes against the timeline...yet haven't seen any since or because of FlashPoint. So why would Barry ever think that by allowing Thawne to once again kill his mother would it all of a sudden cause Iris to be mad at Joe about not telling her about the mom, Dante being killed by a drunk driver, having a new (evil) CSI partner, Caitlyn having powers and baby Sarah no longer existing. All of Barry's time travels had few changes with mostly positive results IMHO so why would he even think all these drastic changes would take place? And why would they anyway? (drama) I mean FlashPoint even wasn't that bad. The only bad thing during it was Joe being a drunk, and that is on Joe. Wally getting hurt/dying is the reason he left his happy life with mom and dad, and that's just because even in FlashPoint Wally sucks. The problem with Flashpoint is that it just exists as an excuse so that the writers can just do whatever the hell they want with the world and the characters without bothering with consistency. This is why that unless there is some other speedster or other time traveller in the mix somewhere neither the Flashpoint timeline or the current timeline make any sense. All Barry was doing by causing Flashpoint was preventing the change to the timeline that Reverse Flash caused in the first place, it should have resulted in the real original timeline where Barry's parents are alive and well, the particle accelerator isn't going to explode for a few more years so there is no metahumans, and Barry just gets to live his life as originally intended, becomes Flash when the particle accelerator explodes, and leads to the events that bring about his mother's murder at Reverse Flash's hands in the first place that his other timeline self then averts. Instead Barry slowly loses his memory and powers, metahumans are all over the place despite the fact that the particle accelerator shouldn't have even exploded yet, leading to the situation where Wally is dying and forces Barry to revert the changes, which again unless there's some other force at work should have resulted in Barry ending up back in the same timeline he originally left with it being exactly as it was before he left to save his mother. NOTHING about Flashpoint or it's consequences make any logical sense whatsoever, it's just there so the writers can screw with the established history of the show and it's characters so they can make things like Emo-Cisco happen. On 12/1/2016 at 8:02 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said: I really hate that Iris and Joe are so insistent that Wally shouldn't be using his powers. I get that Wally needs to slow his roll and train. But at the same time, how much training did Barry really have before he started running around Central City trying to help people? The way Iris was talking in this episode, it sounds like she doesn't want him to train at all. She didn't want the others encouraging him, she didn't want him to see the data from his running, she wanted them to say they had to run more tests, etc. I understand that she doesn't want him to get hurt, but ultimately that's not her decision to make. What if Joe and Barry told her that being a reporter was dangerous and they didn't want her to do it? Would she just quit her job? What if she told Joe that being a cop was too risky? Would he just retire? Isn't Wally in college now? As long as he's over 18, I don't think they should be telling him what to do. Even if he's still in high school, I don't think they should stop him from developing his powers. The best thing they can do for Wally is let him start training so that he can understand how to use his powers. Why not let Barry train him in the safety of the lab? At least that way he can learn firsthand from someone else how to use the speed force. The worst part is how extremely hypocritical Iris is being here. After all her complaining about Joe's overprotectiveness of her since... forever basically, she's pulling the same crap on Wally, and she of all people should know EXACTLY what trying to keep people from following their dreams does to people after experiencing it herself. 3 Link to comment
Ottis December 8, 2016 Share December 8, 2016 I finally figured out what bothers me so much about this show, and what has almost caused me to quit watching: Everyone is so sulky and butt hurt. Whether it is Wally and his powers, or Cisco and his issues with Barry, or Diggle and his son instead of a daughter, or Barry and his endless moping about changing the timeline, GET OVER IT. You're superheroes. You do crazy things. Mistakes happen. Adjust. Adapt. If you can't find a solution, at least quit whining. Good grief. 2 Link to comment
KirkB December 10, 2016 Share December 10, 2016 (edited) On 12/7/2016 at 6:52 PM, immortalfrieza said: The problem with Flashpoint is that it just exists as an excuse so that the writers can just do whatever the hell they want with the world and the characters without bothering with consistency. This is why that unless there is some other speedster or other time traveller in the mix somewhere neither the Flashpoint timeline or the current timeline make any sense. All Barry was doing by causing Flashpoint was preventing the change to the timeline that Reverse Flash caused in the first place, it should have resulted in the real original timeline where Barry's parents are alive and well, the particle accelerator isn't going to explode for a few more years so there is no metahumans, and Barry just gets to live his life as originally intended, becomes Flash when the particle accelerator explodes, and leads to the events that bring about his mother's murder at Reverse Flash's hands in the first place that his other timeline self then averts. Instead Barry slowly loses his memory and powers, metahumans are all over the place despite the fact that the particle accelerator shouldn't have even exploded yet, leading to the situation where Wally is dying and forces Barry to revert the changes, which again unless there's some other force at work should have resulted in Barry ending up back in the same timeline he originally left with it being exactly as it was before he left to save his mother. NOTHING about Flashpoint or it's consequences make any logical sense whatsoever, it's just there so the writers can screw with the established history of the show and it's characters so they can make things like Emo-Cisco happen. You know what? You're right. By saving his mom and stopping Thawne, Barry shouldn't have done anything more where the most exciting thing going on in the world is whatever the bad guys are up to in Star City on Arrow. I hadn't really thought about it until you mentioned it, but if Barry changed the past so Thawne was captured before he had a chance to kill Nora, Harrison Wells (the real one) and his wife would still be alive, they wouldn't get around to building the particle accelerator for years, and there should have been no Kid Flash or Rival. But then again time travel on this show doesn't make any sense in general, since Eddie killing himself and wiping Eobard from existence should have been a Flashpoint on its own, since without Thawne neither Nora or the Wells would be dead in the first place. Edited December 10, 2016 by KirkB 3 Link to comment
AudienceofOne December 11, 2016 Share December 11, 2016 On 30/11/2016 at 2:51 PM, HeroLeague said: Really, hasnt he taken enough of a beating already. The person he thought was his best friend (Cisco) just humiliated him twice in front of everyone. Many of the characters were angry with him in this, even those who had done something similar. Its been 8 episodes so far of someone getting angry at him for the Flashpoint thing. What more yelling does he need...... I know the show want to show that Barry is facing real consequences, but its getting repetitive and extreme now. What good does it do to continually beat down your hero/main character and make him a punching bag for everyone. Nothing good for the show IMO. I'm 100% on Team 'Barry is a dangerous dumbass' but everybody being so judgemental this episode really pissed me off. For a start, Barry did not kill Cisco's brother. And he didn't take anything away from Dig - why would Dig be upset he has a son he remembers loving from birth rather than a hypothetical daughter he's never met? It makes zero sense. In particular, Cisco's insane tantrum about the message from the future - a message Barry was only keeping a secret because Firestorm asked him to - was insane. Everybody seems to be mad at Barry for the wrong thing. Barry's problem is his tendency to make snap decisions without considering the consequences, not lying (I mean, if he lied about Flashpoint nobody would know to be mad at him). So Cisco's meltdown was just so childish. Because they're all mad at him for the wrong thing, he's not learning anything from the experience. He still races in, makes snap judgements, doesn't consider the consequences. It's hubris and that's what the show needs to address. Now they've given him a pass with a 'we'd all do this if we lost somebody we loved' lesson that frees him up to repeat the same mistake all over again. On 08/12/2016 at 10:23 AM, Ottis said: I finally figured out what bothers me so much about this show, and what has almost caused me to quit watching: Everyone is so sulky and butt hurt. Whether it is Wally and his powers, or Cisco and his issues with Barry, or Diggle and his son instead of a daughter, or Barry and his endless moping about changing the timeline, GET OVER IT. You're superheroes. You do crazy things. Mistakes happen. Adjust. Adapt. If you can't find a solution, at least quit whining. Good grief. This. On 08/12/2016 at 9:52 AM, immortalfrieza said: The worst part is how extremely hypocritical Iris is being here. After all her complaining about Joe's overprotectiveness of her since... forever basically, she's pulling the same crap on Wally, and she of all people should know EXACTLY what trying to keep people from following their dreams does to people after experiencing it herself. Also, the only thing 'wrong' with Flashpoint really was that Wally died. That's it. That was the one thing that went wrong and made Flash decide to go back and let his mother die. And yet nobody has told Wally this. They just keep acting like insane helicopter parents terrified to let their kids walk 10 minutes to school. 1 Link to comment
immortalfrieza December 11, 2016 Share December 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said: Also, the only thing 'wrong' with Flashpoint really was that Wally died. That's it. That was the one thing that went wrong and made Flash decide to go back and let his mother die. And yet nobody has told Wally this. They just keep acting like insane helicopter parents terrified to let their kids walk 10 minutes to school. Yep, everybody had much, MUCH better lives with Flashpoint, the sole exception being Wally ending up dying and even then it only happened because he was a cocky idiot. If anything the crew would be pissed at Barry to taking that AWAY from them just to save one guy if they ever found out. Link to comment
Trini January 2, 2017 Share January 2, 2017 A few more thoughts after re-watching: I guess most of it got cut for time, but I really needed to see more (bigger?) reactions to the blonde, flying alien in a red miniskirt that they just pulled from another dimension. And just more reactions from everyone about everyone else that they met. Future!Barry's message: 1.) I wonder if they even plan on this little thread going anywhere, and on which show? And when? It was introduced on Legends, but it involves Barry. Are they planting seeds for a future crossover or will it be only on The Flash? I just have a feeling the message isn't going to brought up again this season (on either show) and isn't related to Flashpoint.... 2.) ... Why is Barry assuming the message is from him - when he knows there are other (timeline) versions of Barry Allen - and that this 'war' is because of Flashpoint? It could be, but it could also related to the Crisis event that was already referenced before Flashpoint. Like someone else noted, the message was only here to create tension within the group and maybe plant a future story arc. 2 Link to comment
zannej January 3, 2017 Share January 3, 2017 (edited) On 11/30/2016 at 11:06 AM, ElleMo said: All of Rip's actions were very personal and he did not care how it affected the timeline. He was willing to go back to ancient Egypt to kill Savage before he got his immortality. That would have caused huge ripples in the timeline as Savage, Kendra and Carter all impacted the timeline for THOUSANDS of years. The people at LOT have done a lot more to impact the timeline than Barry. Ray worked at a university for two years in the 1950s. That disrupted at least one person's life -- the professor that should have been there - and Ray could have influenced his students in ways they wouldn't have been before. They have killed people in their time travels; people who could have lived longer and had a bigger impact and saved people who perhaps should have died. People in the past have witnessed Firestorm's powers, Heatwave and Captain Cold's weapons and Ray's suit, which could have had huge impacts on them. Jax freed slaves. Stein told himself to pay more attention to his wife and ended up with a daughter. Most of this was further back in the timeline than Barry's lifespan, causing much bigger ripples. Kill one person before the have a child can wipe out generations of people who may have impacted the world. Sure, a lot of that was while trying to fix the timeline, but they are always very sloppy. Perhaps they were responsible for some of the time changes attributed to Barry. Maybe Stein's daughter works for Lila and because of her Lila had to work the night that Sara would have been conceived. Maybe Stein's child is Sara; her soul got to earth much earlier in this timeline. I understand Diggle and Cisco being upset. It would freak me out if I had a child I couldn't remember and now that child does not exist. I would be upset if my brother (even if I were not close to him) had died. But Sarah, Ray, Stein and Jax have no right to say a single thing and should have been on his side. Yeah. The entire purpose of the Legends to begin with was all because Rip was trying to save his family-- and IIRC, he even mislead the team members at first to get them on board and then only after the shit hit the fan did they find out the truth and he'd dragged them in to a huge mess. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't their interference actually cause some sort of bio-engineered weapon genocide to happen a few years earlier than it should have? With all of the tampering the LoT crew did, how can they even be sure that the changes when Barry came back were even because of Barry's actions and not theirs? Or what if the actions were because of Thawne? or maybe a combination of all three? On 11/30/2016 at 2:30 PM, HeroLeague said: Yeah, she shouldnt leave the part were she never consulted them of her plans and they had to find out her secret before they could disapprove, just like Barry's 'enablers' didnt know what he was gonna do. And how stubborn she was to listen to her non enablers. Then confess how she may have created a new timeline anyway, by telling the villain his future fate. That was his blood brother and possibly only sibling, thats his family. He may have been a bit of a jerk but it doesnt mean he never was a good brother to Cisco or not have some good qualities. There is 20+ years of history between them that we dont know. There has been two episodes of Cisco saving Dante and their relationship improving. I do believe he loved his brother and this reaction of grief make sense to me. But he can experience grief and not be written in such an irritating way. Lol yeah, such a double standard, either they should have the other characters not letting the Legends off so easy, for tinkering with time. Or they shouldnt be so hard on Barry for doing it. The Legends are allowed to be irresponsible and make mistakes with time multiple times, but the world ends when Barry does it once or twice. They need to stop dealing with time travel in such a contradictory and hypocritical way in this universe. I think the adage about "absence makes the heart grow fonder" could be applied with Cisco. He couldn't stand to be around his brother, but he loved him enough to give away Barry's secret to protect him. And (if it still happened) he took all of his earnings from delivering pizzas to pay off Dante's gambling debts so he wouldn't get his kneecaps smashed. He acted like the older brother in the situation and was fiercely protective. I think there is also a bit of him feeling some guilt over not seeing it coming. He can vibe and see the future sometimes but he didn't see Dante's death coming and maybe he wishes he had so he could have prevented it. So, he might also have some self-blame in there that he is projecting on Barry. That said, it was completely the wrong time and place for Cisco to be acting pissy toward Barry. The stakes were just too high and it wouldn't have killed him to just put it on hold and keep himself together for the sake of the planet while they worked things out. He could have said "I'm still mad at you, but we'll deal with this AFTER we kick some alien asses." Also, for all we know, if Dante hadn't been killed by a drunk driver, it's entirely possible that he could have died an even worse death or something else equally or more tragic could have happened to Cisco's family later on. In my personal fanwanking, I like to believe that before Eobard interfered, Dante was stabbed to death in a mugging-gone-wrong in 2014 or early 2015. I know Eobard tried not to change some things, but if he thought Dante's death would have made it harder for Cisco to help him, he might have intervened. Or maybe he didn't really have to actively do something and it just changed. On 11/30/2016 at 2:48 PM, Latverian Diplomat said: That message was useless for anything but stirring up trouble. Really feel like the writers dropped the ball there. Also, Jax and Martin carefully keep the message secret for days/weeks whatever, only to leave a recording out in the open where Cisco can stumble across it? Please. I enjoyed that too (though Oliver, if Kara didn't hold back at all, she'd put the whole team in the hospital). OTOH, Supergirl's invulnerability is nerfed a fair amount on her own show (because drama). I feel like over there, the atom suit blasts or Firestorm's blasts would have at least stung a little. Maybe the Flash writers have read the comics but not actually watched her show? :-) Mass killing with a biological weapon is not exactly her style. Though I suppose it might be an interesting temptation for Our Heroes to confront, we have to save room for Flashpoint angst. :-( Yeah. I don't think Supergirl would want to outright kill anyone like that. Particularly since she was so upset that her parents had been involved in the creation of the virus. Also, no telling how it would have affected the people of another earth. On 11/30/2016 at 4:41 PM, Spaceman Spiff said: You are correct in that we do not know yet if there are any repercussions to Sarah telling Darkh about his own future, and that Barry is partially responsible for the Reverse Flash even being around, although with time remnants being a thing in this verse who is to honestly say. Let us take a look back at all of Barry's time travel shenanigans. S1-E15 Thawne/Wells kills Cisco. Mardon kidnaps and beats the crap out of Joe, also sends a tsunami that would likely kill not only Iris, but destroy a large chunk of Central City and more than likely harm or kill some of its people. Barry time travels. RESULTS: Cisco saved. Joe saved. Iris saved. City and some of its people saved. 5 stars S1-E16 Thawne/Wells tells Barry..Don't time travel and mess with it (this coming from the eeevviiil time traveling speedster who altered time by going back in time and killing Nora Allen in the first place). Cisco get's vibe powers eventually, but that is more from the particle accelerator and vibrating Thawne hand in the chest right? RESULTS: Iris Kiss erased. Iris forgetting she expressed her love for Barry. Eddie punching Barry. (And none of this really matters because, relationship angst). Cisco and Dante kidnapped (but saved, because Cisco gave up Barry's secret identity to Cpt Cold) S1-E23 Barry travels back in time to attempt to save his mother. Changes his mind because Future Barry waves him off. RESULT: A black hole is formed, but not so much because of Barry's time travel, I mean a singularity doesn't occur any other time he time travels, so it has to be the wormhole that Thawne wanted created to get back to his time in his gerbil bubble because he lost his speed. I count this one on evvviiilll Thawne. S2-E1 Ronnie is dead closing the black hole. See above, I blame Thawne for that. ALL OF SEASON 2 Portals to other earths are now available because of the wormhole and singularity. But E2 Harrison Wells is responsible for creating Zoom and all the meta's on E2 who cross over. S2-E8 The crossover episode. Everyone dies by Savage's hand, Barry time travels. RESUTLS: Everyone is alive because they alter their attack plan on Savage. 5 stars (OK I'll take 2 stars off because the Hawks were saved, but that is still a win) S2-E11 No time travel, but time remnant Thawne's ruptured timeline almost kills Cisco. So not sure why no one in the current FlashPoint's rupture timeline is hurting Cisco.... S2-E17 Barry travels back in time to have eveeelll Thawne/Wells teach him how to be faster. RESULTS: Hartley is good now and his parents are okay with his being gay. That is a win win no? Oh and Time Wraiths, who appear because crimes against the timeline...yet haven't seen any since or because of FlashPoint. So why would Barry ever think that by allowing Thawne to once again kill his mother would it all of a sudden cause Iris to be mad at Joe about not telling her about the mom, Dante being killed by a drunk driver, having a new (evil) CSI partner, Caitlyn having powers and baby Sarah no longer existing. All of Barry's time travels had few changes with mostly positive results IMHO so why would he even think all these drastic changes would take place? And why would they anyway? (drama) I mean FlashPoint even wasn't that bad. The only bad thing during it was Joe being a drunk, and that is on Joe. Wally getting hurt/dying is the reason he left his happy life with mom and dad, and that's just because even in FlashPoint Wally sucks. Barry was actually pretty lucky that things went as well as they did when he traveled through time (both accidentally and deliberately). And he was lucky to avoid the time wraiths most of the time. I would like to add that in season 2 toward the end-- the one with the race with Zoom-- Barry traveled back in time to create a time remnant and brought a couple of dementors time wraiths with him. So, that was another instance of time travel turning out ok. I did think that there wasn't enough on-screen motivation for Barry to want to go back and let his mother die-- but I think it came down to his fear of NOT being able to change things if it got worse. They now had metahumans in that world and if Kid Flash died and Barry lost his powers, there would be no way to fight them. It could have been disastrous. Up until then, Barry had a sort of reset option where he could get do-overs. He was going to lose that safety net because he realized that Thawne was right-- he was going to lose his memories and his powers and then all of the changes would be permanent and he'd be stuck in that world. I imagine that somewhere in the back of his head, he had some recognition that going back and letting Thawne kill his mother could still be undone again if he still had his powers and memories. I do wonder why/how the new season 3 universe was so much like seasons 1 & 2 when Thawne did NOT seem to lose his powers, get stuck in the past, and need to kill Dr. Wells, have the accelerator explode early, and train Barry. I don't have high hopes that they will try to explain that, but it would be nice if they did. On 12/1/2016 at 1:48 PM, Chicago Redshirt said: To respond to Maczero's list of Barry's time travel: Barry's going back in time to save his mother is completely on him. Thawne Stein explained beforehand with the particular method of time travel being used, Barry had to have everything work out just right or there could be a world/universe swallowing singularity that would form. Barry decided that saving his mom was worth the risk. It remains the stupidest, most selfish decision I think I've seen a superhero make. And I watched all of Smallville. :) I found Barry going back in time to save his mother the second time was far less egregious than when he went back the first time knowing full well that if he screwed up, not only would it kill him, but it could cause a singularity that could potentially destroy the entire universe. That is supreme selfishness there. And then when he didn't get what he wanted, he reneged on his agreement with Thawne. I get that he was furious and all, but if he'd just let Thawne go, Eddie and Ronnie might have lived. But then we wouldn't have had the breaches to other Earths open up. I am slightly surprised that Barry never defended himself on Flashpoint by saying he was only trying to undo what another time traveler did. Also, why didn't he go back in time to save just his dad instead? He could have zipped behind Zoom and given him a surprise wedgie before knocking him out and locking him in the pipeline. On 12/2/2016 at 7:47 PM, Spaceman Spiff said: @MACZERO was quoting my post and I feel compelled to respond. I just rewatched S1-E23 to verify what I thought I knew. Evil time travelling Thawne from the future explained? Professor Stein is the one who found that a singularity could be formed, which means Thawne withheld that information from everyone. Thawne explained the conditions to be met to avoid it. Get back in time ( 1 minute and 52 seconds) and close the wormhole. The wormhole Thawne needed to get back to his time because he lost his touch with the speed force and couldn't do it on his own. No other time that Barry time traveled did he need to create a wormhole by colliding with a hydrogen particle, which makes me think Thawne wanted the singularity to form because he would have been back safe in his future time line. That was all for evil Thawne. Barry did get back in the allotted 1:52 and the wormhole was closed down. All conditions were met. Unfortunately after Eddie shoots himself and wipes future Thawne from existence, the wormhole reforms and a singularity is created. People who wanted Barry to do it. Barry Yes Joe Yes Henry No Iris Do something for YOU for once Caitlyn Yes Cisco No Eddie and Stein I guess yes since I never heard them say no. Thanks for pointing out it was Stein. I would have said something if you hadn't. I really think that Thawne thought that if Barry interfered his past self would have killed Barry. Or maybe he thought that if Barry changed things, then he would have gotten away and never been stuck for all those years. Not sure how the singularity thing would have played out for Thawne. I mean, if it ate the world then there would be no future for him to return to. I'm pretty sure his ancestors would have been dead. I'm surprised nobody said "Look, I'm fine with you wanting to save your mother, but if this could potentially kill you and/or wipe out the entire universe, NO!" On 12/10/2016 at 8:50 PM, AudienceofOne said: I'm 100% on Team 'Barry is a dangerous dumbass' but everybody being so judgemental this episode really pissed me off. For a start, Barry did not kill Cisco's brother. And he didn't take anything away from Dig - why would Dig be upset he has a son he remembers loving from birth rather than a hypothetical daughter he's never met? It makes zero sense. In particular, Cisco's insane tantrum about the message from the future - a message Barry was only keeping a secret because Firestorm asked him to - was insane. Everybody seems to be mad at Barry for the wrong thing. Barry's problem is his tendency to make snap decisions without considering the consequences, not lying (I mean, if he lied about Flashpoint nobody would know to be mad at him). So Cisco's meltdown was just so childish. Because they're all mad at him for the wrong thing, he's not learning anything from the experience. He still races in, makes snap judgements, doesn't consider the consequences. It's hubris and that's what the show needs to address. Now they've given him a pass with a 'we'd all do this if we lost somebody we loved' lesson that frees him up to repeat the same mistake all over again. This. Also, the only thing 'wrong' with Flashpoint really was that Wally died. That's it. That was the one thing that went wrong and made Flash decide to go back and let his mother die. And yet nobody has told Wally this. They just keep acting like insane helicopter parents terrified to let their kids walk 10 minutes to school. Yeah, the whole judging Barry for not being able to foresee the consequences when he really didn't know all that much about time travel and didn't cause harm intentionally seemed rather annoying. Especially in comparison to the fuckery of the LoT crew. And again, as I mentioned before, there is no proof that it was even Barry's fault to begin with. It could have been the LoT team that caused the changes. In defense of helicopter parents, I do know of cases where parents let their kids out of their sight for 2 minutes and the kids ended up dead. Yeah, a lot of the time it is not necessary and the chances of the kid being kidnapped or harmed are fairly slim-- but there are those cases where being a helicopter parent can save a child's life. I admit that I can relate to the concern Iris and Joe have for Wally and how they are worried that his recklessness can get him killed. That said, I think they are not handling it appropriately at all. They need to accept that he's an adult and let him be trained because he's going to go out and try to be a hero anyway. It reminds me of those people who preach abstinence only and don't bother to teach their kids about contraceptives. If anything, I found their arguments against him becoming a hero were rather weak. They could have at least pointed out that Barry had the benefit of being trained by someone who was secretly a speedster and who had a very strong motivation to keep Barry alive (at least until Barry could get him back to his own time). On 1/2/2017 at 1:05 AM, Trini said: A few more thoughts after re-watching: I guess most of it got cut for time, but I really needed to see more (bigger?) reactions to the blonde, flying alien in a red miniskirt that they just pulled from another dimension. And just more reactions from everyone about everyone else that they met. Future!Barry's message: 1.) I wonder if they even plan on this little thread going anywhere, and on which show? And when? It was introduced on Legends, but it involves Barry. Are they planting seeds for a future crossover or will it be only on The Flash? I just have a feeling the message isn't going to brought up again this season (on either show) and isn't related to Flashpoint.... 2.) ... Why is Barry assuming the message is from him - when he knows there are other (timeline) versions of Barry Allen - and that this 'war' is because of Flashpoint? It could be, but it could also related to the Crisis event that was already referenced before Flashpoint. Like someone else noted, the message was only here to create tension within the group and maybe plant a future story arc. I did notice that Felicity and HR's reactions to Supergirl in the promo were not the same as in the actual episode. That said, I thought Kara was totally adorable in this episode. I really like Melissa and I wish I could bring myself to watch her show, but I can't stand most of the characters on it. There are some pretty awful actors in there and then there are some characters that I just can't bring myself to give a flying fig about. I noticed in the x-over episode that Cat Grant wasn't there, which was disappointing. Is she still on the show? I did like that the actress who played Morgana on Merlin was on the show though. I found myself wondering if future Barry's message was actually about something that he did after Flashpoint. What if the mistake he made was throwing the Savitar box into the speedforce? Or what if it was the whole trying to stop Iris from being killed like in his future vision and it ends up causing worse things to happen? What if Barry thought he caused some things that he didn't and it was really Thawne's doing? Good point about them assuming it is from their Barry and not a different one. Edited January 3, 2017 by zannej 1 Link to comment
Rina99 March 12, 2017 Share March 12, 2017 Well, I'm REALLY late to the party, having only just watched this episode the other night. First off, thank you, show, for highlighting Oliver's good qualities, and why I've stuck by him through the past few years of stagnant character growth. Listening to him lay it all out drives home that he's been through some horrific shit, and manages to not only wake up each morning, but try to help how he can, even if he messes up a lot. I always love how much more intense he seems contrasted with the characters from other shows, and how they all respect him without the benefit of superpowers or enhanced super-suits. I binged all of the episodes up to this point, and even with zipping through it I have to wholeheartedly agree that I'm sick of Cisco's whining about Dante. I can't imagine what watching it week to week was like. The fact is, I didn't care about Dante, and so I don't care that much that he's dead. It's that simple. I hope they move past this, and soon, because I'm just about done with Cisco. Everything else was great, including seeing Thea suit up again, and all of the great character interactions. 2 Link to comment
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