S01.E09: The Trip

[GodsBeloved]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

Also, there was no paper trail for Randall's adoption?  That's not how adoption works.  You don't just take a baby home from the hospital - even if he was dropped off by the fire department. 

I wonder if they fostered Randall and then adopted him. Also Rebecca mentioned that no one gave up their rights so maybe that's the paper trail being referred to.

Edited November 30, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Lady Calypso]

37 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

Powerful episode with A LOT going on. Add me to the long list of Olivia detesters. She is a vile person, just wretched. I've hated her from the get-go. I think I had one moment of sympathy for her, when she ranted about how horrible her family is, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're great people and she's the assh*le of the family. How the hell are she and Kevin going to be able to perform this play together, though? Ugh.

I'm a tiny bit worried that her family will be worse than her because not only will we have to suffer through them being worse little assholes, but they'll try to garner sympathy for Olivia and I can't excuse any of her behaviour due to her shitty family. I don't know if I want to, and I don't love being blatantly manipulated. It feels like she could be put on a path to redemption. I know the show is all about layers and shades of grey, but it's going to take a lot for me to even remotely tolerate Olivia at this point. But I'm trying, I really am. I even felt a pinge of empathy for her when Kevin basically called her empty and heartless and fake. It looked like it actually hurt her to hear it. But it wasn't enough to get me to like her. 

[candall]

I know Olivia's very unpopular, but Kate was way out of line with her "I know women like you."  What makes you think you know Olivia so well, Kate?  Because you've spent four hours with her?  Maybe you've read some gossip mag articles?  Because of her looks?  Yikes, is it possible to say anything more superficially judgmental?

 

Olivia blasted right back at Kate, but Kate instigated the confrontation and I liked Olivia's mic drop exit:  "You don't know any women like me."  Hmmm . . . interesting.   I don't think we've seen the last of Olivia.

 

Besides, I had to pay a therapist $95 about a million years ago to be told the very same thing Olivia said:  "What if fixing your main 'flaw' doesn't solve everything?"  [Spoiler:  sometimes you change what you think is the main problem and **boom** brand new problems!]

[saber5055]

Wow, three pages here already. Forgive me if I am distracted by Jack taking his shirt off. I sort of missed everything he and Rebecca said during those scenes. Wow. Just ... nice. I do want to know how many men here can do any pushups much less a dozen or more with a nine year old on their back.

Just for the record, put me at lucky to do one with no one at my back.

I mean ON my back. Duh. Sorry. Cannot edit posts.

[GodsBeloved]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Randall was never happy because his real life parents had given him up.  Potential adoptive parents are hearing that you will always be in danger of losing the child you've given your heart to, that he will always long for his biological parents.  Jack's is the saddest story of all, to me.  He has been the best dad in the world, but, according to the show,  it wasn't enough, he wasn't able to teach Randall the things he needed to know because his skin wasn't the right color.  It's just depressing to me.

And here it is. While understanding Randall wanting to his bio parents, I wondered why parents who literally chose him and who love him wasn't enough.

[ShadowFacts]

24 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I still say that the only reason Randall is upset is because William is a nice, old dying man.  Had William been a real SOB, or in prison for murder, I doubt that Randall would have been SO upset with Rebecca. 

Maybe, but that's not what we have.  He isn't a real SOB or murderer.  He's a poet and musician who got his life together.  And could have been a presence in his son's life.

Rebecca's actions may be understandable, but to me she was thinking more of herself than Randall.  "I can't lose him."  What about what Randall was losing?  And she is the one who decided not to speak up about what she knew about the biological parent.  Who had no chance to either terminate his parental rights or not (yes, I know he effectively did when he took the baby to the firehouse) because she chose to keep material facts from the court.  That's kind of a big deal.  I suspected that's what happened but now she confirmed it. 

P.S.  Thank gods for Brexit. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I know a woman who got pregnant in1968 while she was in college.  Everyone,  doctors, family, friends, magazines, and her sociology classes told her to give the baby up for adoption, that any other decision would be selfish and the child would have a poor, stigmatized life.  Now, this show, seems to be saying just the opposite. 

But was she a drug addict?  I have to think that would make a big difference!

 

1 hour ago, Good Queen Jane said:

I'm sure Jack and Rebecca went through a court hearing to adopt Randall, but since the parents were unknown, no consent to the adoption by the biological parents was given. That could have been a basis for overturning the adoption, especially in the 80's. (Now there are different laws regarding consent.) But whether William could overturn the adoption or not, all that really matters is the Rebecca thought he might be able to.

Also, I don't think Jack knew the birth mother was dead. Rebecca found out when she first met William and I would assume that Randall found out from the PI, as the birth mother's name would have been the easiest to find.

 

9 hours ago, memememe76 said:

Rebecca and Jack mentioned birth PARENTS could take Randall from them. Do they not know about the mother having died?

Jack didn't know anything about the birth parents, just that Randall was abandoned at a fire station.  Rebecca was told by William about Randall's mother.  However, when talking to Jack, she had to refer to the possibility of Randall's "parents" being wonderful people, just as she made no mention of William's drug addiction, because she hadn't told Jack that she knew anything about William.  When Randall was 9 and was asking questions about his birth parents, Rebecca could have come clean to Jack and explained how she had met the drug addicted William when Randall was an infant.  Once she decided not to do that, she had to pretend to be as completely ignorant as Jack was.  If Jack was still alive when Randall turned 18 and she told Randall the truth, Jack would have known she had lied to him for 9 years (or 18, depending on how you look at it.) If Jack had died by then, Rebecca might not have wanted to "replace" Jack in Randall's life with another father figure. By then, she probably felt she had been in it too deep.

To summarize, once Rebecca lied by omission to Jack about Randall's parentage, she probably felt there was no turning back.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, TobinAlbers said:

ETA: The video of Sterling not only doing push ups with Milo on his back but then Justin Hartley shows how he's just the man! 

Please where is this video!

[DearEvette]

8 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

 And you know what really tipped me over the edge?  It wasn't how she treated Kate or Kevin or the flaunting of Asher.  It was the fact that she hijacked Sloane's car when Sloane desperately wanted to be there when her niece was born (and then stole her car!)  I will also admit that, at that moment, I totally shipped Sloane and Kevin (and was delighted when that came to fruition, although I really hope they aren't heading to love triangle land with it).

Olivia was on my shit list last week.  But I couldn't get over just how cavalier and thoughtless she is about everything and everyone.  She has no polite social skills.  If it wasn't being clearly shown that she does have feelings, then I'd think they were trying to hint that she was a sociopath. 

I loved how Sloane was "I hate her but I have to be nice to her" which also tells me that not only is Olivia rude and thoughtless but she is a bully.  I also hope they aren't going for a lame love triangle.  And I sincerely hope we are not going to get some lame redemption arc for her. 

7 hours ago, Cardie said:

It's really not fair of the show to make Jack the model parent and Rebecca the insecure, selfish b**ch. I do understand why she never told Randall when he was 18, because once you carry a lie like that it's very hard to admit to it later. William is once more a saint, not telling Randall when the secret gets out that he asked to see young Randall and Rebecca cut off contact. I do love Jack and William but all the mom-blame gets tiresome, even if they try to make some excuses for Rebecca's actions.

I never once got the impression that Rebecca was being shown to be either insecure or a bitch.  I do think since the story was being told from Randall's perspective and also young Randall's perspective it does lend one to want to see their side of things.  But overall, this felt to me to be such a complex boil of emotions.  Rebecca seemed tortured to me, tbh.  I think Mandy Moore did a great job of showing Rebecca's anxiety.

 

3 hours ago, candall said:

When Rebecca showed up at William's door, I thought the show would have him be all cracked out to reinforce Rebecca's decision to keep them apart.  But no, it was the opposite!  Five years of sobriety, a support network, a tidy apartment and an open honest demeanor, eager to introduce Randall to music . . . zip, she's out the door when his back is turned.  Brutal.

I think seeing him all clean terrified her.  This was her nightmare scenario.  Running like that was completely irrational, but that is the point.  She wasn't thinking rationally.

I don't know any adoptees on an intimate enough level to understand some of the issues, but I can imagine that there are a lot of adopted parents who might be seeing the show and see themselves in Rebecca and there are a lot of adult adopted children who see themselves in Randall.  It just strikes me as a complicated emotional stew that  nobody is completely wrong or right.

[Enigma X]

Sorry, I am having trouble quoting and I am also sorry because I am about to comment without having watched yet, but...

I was silently wondering how Randall's feelings for Jack fit in all this. I don't think Randall feels as if William, or a black father, could have raised him better. I think it is more of a need of just seeing someone that looks like him that he is related to. I also think since Jack passed that the need to find his bio father became a focused urge--a fixation. I even speculate that in some way he could be using William to fill the void that Jack left.

[TobinAlbers]

5 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Please where is this video!

Link courtesy of @photo fox  I didn't realize that they also did the reverse with wee Milo pushing up Sterling and Justin also pushing up Sterling.

These guys are great.

The guys recreate the dojo scene...

http://www.justjared.com/2016/11/29/video-this-is-us-men-recreate-jack-randalls-push-up-scene/

[GodsBeloved]

7 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Link courtesy of @photo fox  I didn't realize that they also did the reverse with wee Milo pushing up Sterling and Justin also pushing up Sterling.

These guys are great.

Thank you!

[Chaos Theory]

Nothing Rebecca does at least when it comes to Randall is out of selfishness.  That is what makes it all so tragic.  She keeps in touch with William which she technically doesn't have to do and when he gets clean initially agrees to think about letting him meet his son (who William ABANDONED).  Rebecca is under zero obligation to do either and at the moment is living her nightmare scenario but believes that she is doing the right thing for HER son.  That belief changes when she realizes that letting Randall meet William might destroy Jack who has gone out of his way to attempt to be the perfect father for Randall.  

I am not saying she made the right choice.  I am not saying she was right to not tell Randal his father regretted giving him up at some point in his life.  Maybe some time after Jack died.  However I do understand why she didn't tell him at that moment in time.  Randall already had a father.  A father who never abandoned him and never would.  

[Indy]

I want Olivia to move out to LA and get involved with Toby. Then they can be irritating together. 

[Lady Calypso]

20 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Link courtesy of @photo fox  I didn't realize that they also did the reverse with wee Milo pushing up Sterling and Justin also pushing up Sterling.

These guys are great.

What's great about this is not just Milo joking around, but Justin's encouragement to Sterling when he's on his back. 

[JunebugWA]

It's an emotional episode for sure but man, I could not stop laughing at Randall tripping and Kevin trying to talk to him. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by JunebugWA

[Haleth]

I have several adopted cousins, some of different races. Some of them wanted to find their birth families (and did), others have never had an interest. Everyone is different. 

I am sooooo glad Randall knew Beth had recently found out about the big secret.  Most shows would have this hanging over her head until it blew up again.  I think we can assume she explained about finding out and was urging Rebecca to tell him. Randall was angry and hurt about that too, but it's a credit to the strength of their marriage (the best on tv) that they could discuss it. 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Haleth

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Crs97 said:

We haven't seen anything about Rebecca's reaction yet.  She hasn't been allowed to finish a sentence yet. You would think someone would ask her why instead of just talking about how crazy she was.

I didn't love William's explanation that he was just abiding by her wishes - no explanation to Randall that for the first four years (at least since I still don't believe that he has been completely clean ever since) of Randall's life he was still using drugs and wouldn't have been able to be a parent.

I am tired of everything feeling like it's all the mom's fault.  She needs to catch a break at some point.

I think indirectly we did.  It's hard to tell under the circumstances, but I do think Randall's trip was inspired by some real ideas bubbling in his mind.  It was the first few steps on the journey that's going to allow him to understand his mother's actions somewhat.  IMO we're so far left with the belief that she did the best she was capable of, in that she was simply unable to face taking any actions that might in any way cost her Randall.   I think on some level Randall understands that's why she's bonded herself so tightly to him over the years, as penance for not allowing him to know William and her determination to do whatever she could to fill the void in him.  It doesn't really make up for it in the end and I'm sure things will get very testy when he loses William, but at a certain level I think the writers were trying to give us a visual tour through his thinking process instead of simply just a hurt, angry confrontation and explanation.  I think in a weird way it helped the audience to go on the trip with him to understand how to make space to justify her actions somewhat when we have the constant visual reminder of William to make us question and resent her choice.

[DollEyes]

Regarding Rebecca, given William's addiction at the time, I understood her wanting to keep Randall away from him before he grew up, but not after. Once Randall became a man, he had every right to know the truth and to know William if he wanted to, but Rebecca let her selfishness and fear get in the way. Younger William's enthusiasm about the prospect of seeing Randall scaring Rebecca when Randall was still a child was understandable, but by keeping Randall & William apart after Randall was grown, Rebecca stole valuable time from both of them that they'll never get back, which is even worse now that William's dying. Decades of sobriety on William's part should have counted for something with Rebecca.  If Randall wants to forgive Rebecca, it should be on his terms, not hers.  Rebecca also shouldn't have kept the truth from Jack, who had just as much right to know as Randall.  As far as I'm concerned, Rebecca was unfair to Randall, William and Jack. 

 Make room on the Olivia Hate Train for me. Her being at Thanksgiving was bad enough, but showing up at the cabin for what was supposed to be a siblings-only weekend with her ex and their colleague Sloane, lecturing Kate, throwing passive-aggressive shade at her and then leaving without Sloane in Sloane's car? Bitch, please! Olivia is full of so much shit, just writing her name stinks. Seeing Olivia get read by Kate and Kevin was the highlight of the episode. That and the push-up scene. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by DollEyes

[Crs97]

38 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Who had no chance to either terminate his parental rights or not (yes, I know he effectively did when he took the baby to the firehouse) because she chose to keep material facts from the court.

He was still using back then and had abandoned his child in a fire station (I assume this happened before the laws allowing for anonymous drop-offs at hospitals and fire stations).  I don't think it would have ended as happily for William as you might hope.  

Frankly, I am surprised that Randall didn't have any withdrawal issues after being born to drug-addicted parents.

[ShadowFacts]

43 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

And here it is. While understanding Randall wanting to his bio parents, I wondered why parents who literally chose him and who love him wasn't enough.

It is not an either/or proposition, in my view.  Wanting to know your roots does not negate anything your adoptive parents have done, or anything you have felt for them.  Jack does not seem sad about Randall wanting to know, in fact he does his best to see that Randall has was he needs/wants, be it private school, having black friends (Yvette's kids), black adult role models (martial arts people at Yvette's suggestion).  Jack doesn't come off sad or afraid, it is Rebecca who can't allow the possibility of Randall knowing his bio parent.  It is understandable while he is a young kid, but not past childhood.  She can't lose him when he's an adult.  Keeping the secret the way she did really did not work out--Randall's possibilities for some level of meaningful contact were made impossible, his emotional state is blown up now, and she herself has lived with a shit ton of guilt and anxiety (my assumption).  Secrets have a high probability of causing pain when they are exposed.  Here's Exhibit A. 

[GodsBeloved]

21 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Nothing Rebecca does at least when it comes to Randall is out of selfishness.  That is what makes it all so tragic.  She keeps in touch with William which she technically doesn't have to do and when he gets clean initially agrees to think about letting him meet his son (who William ABANDONED).  Rebecca is under zero obligation to do either and at the moment is living her nightmare scenario but believes that she is doing the right thing for HER son.  That belief changes when she realizes that letting Randall meet William might destroy Jack who has gone out of his way to attempt to be the perfect father for Randall.  

I am not saying she made the right choice.  I am not saying she was right to not tell Randal his father regretted giving him up at some point in his life.  Maybe some time after Jack died.  However I do understand why she didn't tell him at that moment in time.  Randall already had a father.  A father who never abandoned him and never would.  

I just want to quote this because it perfectly describes how I feel.

[JunebugWA]

9 hours ago, Cardie said:

Please tell me that neither Toby nor Olivia will ever appear on my screen again. I know it's too much to hope for but it was my first thought when Olivia drove off in the car that is not hers and Toby hung up.

It's really not fair of the show to make Jack the model parent and Rebecca the insecure, selfish b**ch. I do understand why she never told Randall when he was 18, because once you carry a lie like that it's very hard to admit to it later. William is once more a saint, not telling Randall when the secret gets out that he asked to see young Randall and Rebecca cut off contact. I do love Jack and William but all the mom-blame gets tiresome, even if they try to make some excuses for Rebecca's actions.

Chris Sullivan is a series regular so I think Toby is here to stay for a while.

[AuntiePam]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

UO here, but I didn't love the Dojo scene.  Maybe because I just kept thinking what if Jack hadn't been physically strong enough to do the pushups.  It was moving for what it was, but I just felt like it was written to be a moving tear-jerker scene rather than organic to the story.

I worried about that too -- the push-ups test -- and then figured that if the dojo guy thought a dad couldn't handle it, he'd have a different test for that dad. 

I'm still liking Toby.  I remember all the special things he did for Kate -- he was a great boyfriend, and friend.  Kate needs to realize that Toby has his own food issues to deal with.  So what if he's fallen off the wagon -- just don't have lunch/dinner dates if you can't watch him eat.  There are other ways to bond than over food.  I get that she was upset that he'd eat that thousand-calorie dessert in front of her, but she told him it was okay.  If he's going to deny himself because of her, that's just another thing she'll feel bad about. 

Are we to believe that this wasn't a legal and permanent adoption?  The hospital just let them take Randall home? 

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, Cardie said:

 

It's really not fair of the show to make Jack the model parent and Rebecca the insecure, selfish b**ch. I do understand why she never told Randall when he was 18, because once you carry a lie like that it's very hard to admit to it later. William is once more a saint, not telling Randall when the secret gets out that he asked to see young Randall and Rebecca cut off contact. I do love Jack and William but all the mom-blame gets tiresome, even if they try to make some excuses for Rebecca's actions.

Randall is already aware on some level Jack wasn't necessarily perfect, we heard Jack tell him that in the trip, clearly foreshadowing more details to come as the story unfolds.

[atiyah9369]

12 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Gosh, I was so mad that they didn't start the episode with going back to the Thanksgiving dinner and Kate announcing that she was going to have bypass surgery, it was hard to concentrate.  I wanted to see everyone's reaction.  I wanted to see Rebecca's reaction to seeing Kate.  I wanted to see how that evening ended.  Did Rebecca and Miguel just leave?  I wanted to see it all.  But instead it was skipped.  Very disappointing.

Just an FYI, Kevin only invited Olivia.  Olivia brought the other two.  He shouldn't have invited Olivia in the first place but the other two were just as much as surprise to him as it was for Kate and Randall.

Seeing William having a glimmer of hope of seeing his son was heartbreaking.  I get that Rebecca did not wanat Randall to have a relationship with his biological father as a child....but she should have told him when he became an adult.  She also should have told Jack. 

Seeing Jack do the push ups with Randall on his back was all sorts of unconditional love.  What a moment. 

Is it me or did it look like Kate had some sort of padding on when she and Kevin were sitting on that tree stump outside toward the end?  Maybe I'm wrong but it looked so unnatural.  It just didn't look right. 

I did really like the closeness that Kate shows with both her brothers...and it looks like Kate is moving East.  Yay.

I thought she looked padded and square also.

[Hanahope]

I think it was pretty short sighted of both Olivia and Kevin to react so harshly to Kate's desire to have surgery to help with the weight loss.  Olivia being all "it may not solve your problem," um, it could very well solve a big one.  How would Olivia have even a clue as to what problems Kate has, especially as an obese person, let alone emotionally or whatever other "problem" Olivia thinks Kate has.  Olivia has no real idea how Kate has to deal with being obese, how people treat her, and how that affects all sorts of other life issues.  Sure Kate may have been out of line with Olivia as well, but I'm sure Kate has had more experience with women at least a little bit like Olivia, as it concerns Kevin, than Olivia has had with women like Kate. 

And Kevin just kept saying "its dangerous."  Well, so is being massively obese.  I'm not saying surgery is definitely the correct answer, or even the only one, but it is at least worth exploring as an option for Kate.  Yes, she needs to discuss it with a doctor, of course.  But it could very well be less dangerous for her health, properly monitored, than continuing as she is doing.

[Tikichick]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I know a woman who got pregnant in1968 while she was in college.  Everyone,  doctors, family, friends, magazines, and her sociology classes told her to give the baby up for adoption, that any other decision would be selfish and the child would have a poor, stigmatized life.  Now, this show, seems to be saying just the opposite.  Randall was never happy because his real life parents had given him up.  Potential adoptive parents are hearing that you will always be in danger of losing the child you've given your heart to, that he will always long for his biological parents.  Jack's is the saddest story of all, to me.  He has been the best dad in the world, but, according to the show,  it wasn't enough, he wasn't able to teach Randall the things he needed to know because his skin wasn't the right color.  It's just depressing to me.

I think Randall's family with his own wife and children demonstrates exactly why we shouldn't find his story depressing.  His upbringing wasn't perfect, but it was loving.  Each and every person isn't perfect, but this is us.

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Crs97 said:

He was still using back then and had abandoned his child in a fire station (I assume this happened before the laws allowing for anonymous drop-offs at hospitals and fire stations).  I don't think it would have ended as happily for William as you might hope.  

Frankly, I am surprised that Randall didn't have any withdrawal issues after being born to drug-addicted parents.

The fact that William may have ended up in trouble (possible I suppose) doesn't alter the fact that Rebecca was in the wrong in not revealing what she knew.  An investigation of Randall's mother's death may have occurred, it should have come out at that time there was a baby missing, (apparently it doesn't fit in this narrative) but if Rebecca had been honest maybe that particular mystery would have been solved. 

[Lady Calypso]

11 minutes ago, DollEyes said:

 Make room on the Olivia Hate Train for me. Her being at Thanksgiving was bad enough, but showing up at the cabin for what was supposed to be a siblings-only weekend with her ex and their colleague Sloane, lecturing Kate, throwing passive-aggressive shade at her and then leaving without Sloane in Sloane's car? Bitch, please! Olivia is full of so much shit, just writing her name stinks. Seeing Olivia get read by Kate and Kevin was the highlight of the episode. That and the push-up scene. 

Yep. I know Kevin's at fault for inviting Olivia in the first place. He just wants to get closer to her, but inviting her to the family cabin when it should be a siblings only trip is not cool. Kevin had his douchey moments so I'm glad Kate called him out. He deserved to be yelled at. But what in the world gave Olivia the impression that Kevin wanted her and her friends there? What in her right mind would make her think that inviting two other people to tag along was cool? Especially after what we find out about her and Sloan, it just shows her having zero boundaries. Same with her stepping in to lecture Kate. Sure, Kate assumed something about Olivia without knowing her, but Olivia took it a step further. Plus, Kate just witnessed Olivia coming to the cabin and inviting two other people, being rude about the cabin and about Kevin/Kate/Randall in general, and overall putting her nose into other people's businesses. Olivia's been bluntly honest before so it's not surprising, but damn if she didn't step over the line. I'm glad Kevin also called her out on her outright flirting with another guy, as if she was just there to not only help her acting experiences or whatever, but also to get closer to her ex. Sure, Kevin invited her on his own pretenses and he's in the wrong, but that wasn't Olivia's cabin so she should have been a grateful guest.

2 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And Kevin just kept saying "its dangerous."  Well, so is being massively obese.  I'm not saying surgery is definitely the correct answer, or even the only one, but it is at least worth exploring as an option for Kate.  Yes, she needs to discuss it with a doctor, of course.  But it could very well be less dangerous for her health, properly monitored, than continuing as she is doing.

I'm going to be rewatching the episode so I'll probably end up correcting myself, but the impression I got was that Kevin was worried about the surgery itself. I'm fine with him questioning the surgery option. It's a pretty big shock to him as well as to Kate and Randall and the rest of the family when a major life decision is made. There's bound to be doubt, questions, and concern. Kevin even told Kate that he needed her there. Was he worried about the success of the surgery? I guess so. I'll rewatch to comment further on it, but I don't put any blame on Kevin for not reacting well to Kate's news.  They just found out, after all. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

It bothers me , the whole, the surgery / losing weight won't fix you thing.  "You have to fix your own life".  It reminds me of "Money doesn't buy happiness".  Both of these statements are so simplistic, and naive.  Situations are so much more complex, and nuanced than that.  For example, I've been thin, and I've been overweight, and life was very different when I was thin/in shape. People treated me completely differently.  (Obviously, not good friends - but just people, in general.) Now I know, that it's shallow, and it's fake, but I obviously had a more confidence, was probably healthier, and had a lot of love in my life.  Reality is that money is extremely important in our society, and so is looks.  It's hard for someone to just go out and find love when they don't feel confident about themselves.  It'd be hard to even attend a job interview. Of course the surgery would drastically change SOMETHING.  Another analogy is that a friend of mine just got her braces off (we're in our 30s.)  She's extremely happy about it, probably doesn't have to floss as vigorously, probably can smile a lot easier and freer.  LOL.  Why would I not want that for her?  Yes a major change in your life will change something.  There are studies that show that people get a lot more opportunities in life/work when they're considered attractive.  Pretending this isn't true is naive.  And confidence counts for a lot, so does health.

It's just haughty Olivia getting up on her haughty high horse and talking down to Kate about something that is so extremely none of her fucking business, about something she cannot remotely relate to, as usual.  She's a plot device.  She's the devil on Kate's shoulder.  

Edited November 30, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

When I saw you, I knew you were mine.' What every child -natural or adopted - wants and needs to hear.

Remember, that's Randall self-affirming. Jack may have said it at some point, but that was a hallucination.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

22 minutes ago, atiyah9369 said:

12 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Is it me or did it look like Kate had some sort of padding on when she and Kevin were sitting on that tree stump outside toward the end?  Maybe I'm wrong but it looked so unnatural.  It just didn't look right. 

I did really like the closeness that Kate shows with both her brothers...and it looks like Kate is moving East.  Yay.

I thought she looked padded and square also.

Maybe the actress has already started losing weight.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

What's great about this show is that no one is 100% right and 100% wrong.  No one, except maybe Olivia is one dimensional

Jack was a great dad to Randall, but because he wasn't black, there were things he couldn't give Randall, and he knew it, that's hard but that is true.  Randall was Rebecca's favorite, I remember how happy she was when he finally took her breast; there was the bond right there.  Rebecca has always seen Randall as HER son, to her, William was an intruder.   When William was going on and on about what he wanted to do with Randall, I laughed because that's such a recovering drug addict/alcoholic thing to do, to go on and on about the future, you're sober, and you think you can take over the world you start projecting.  He should have talked to his sponsor first; the sponsor would have told him to keep it simple and first things first, start small.  He was so happy that he didn't realize he overwhelmed Rebecca, scared the shit out of her. 

Toby did the healthy thing with Kate.  If they've broken up, Kate doesn't have the right to run to him when she needs an ear, as if they're still together.  I had to do that with someone and I didn't want to do it, but in the end it was the best thing.  Kevin basically did that too with Olivia, he put up a boundary.  He thought he and Olivia were together, but she disrespected him by bringing her ex there so Kevin told them to leave and defended Kate.  Boundaries are not easy but they are necessary if you don't want to get run over. 

I still say that the only reason Randall is upset is because William is a nice, old dying man.  Had William been a real SOB, or in prison for murder, I doubt that Randall would have been SO upset with Rebecca. 

Bolding is mine.  Who would be happy about discovering a horrible biological parent and wouldn't understand the parent who raised them keeping that secret?  It's more dramatically satisfying for the story to have William turn out to be a great person who recovered from the circumstances that led to him needing to abandon his son.  Randall wound up very fortunate with the family he wound up growing up with and how much they loved him.  There is still the flip side of his coin where you see the tragedy and the pain he didn't get the privilege of growing up knowing the love of his birth parents.  Given what we know about William I'm going to guess there's much more to recommend his birth mother than dying by overdose after giving birth to your son might suggest.  I'm grateful Randall had the love of his family, but I mourn what he missed with his birth family at the same time.  

[cardigirl]

Quote

Or I could spend some time defending myself from what I expect would be an avalanche of "you're a crackpot" by making the controversial assertion that they should just go ahead and kill off Kevin. I mean, why not? I don't want to see him help Olivia get woke to her feelings. I did like that he ended up in bed with the cutie playwright but ultimately, who cares? Nobody. Do something with him or let me be resigned that he really is just eye candy after all. Knocking him off would open a world of emotional possibilities and story lines.

NOoOoOOooooooo! 

And I thought Olivia made a valid point to Kate.  Losing the weight will not fix what made her gain the weight in the first place.  Will it help her feel better?  Possibly. For a time. But then something else will replace her fixation with her weight and not being who she wants to be.  The fact that watching Toby eat was an excuse for her to overeat shows that she's not addressing the issues she has with food.   And we've seen that Kate is a very capable, smart woman.  She can kick ass when she needs to.  

So what if society values youth and beauty and wealth over other more important things?  All of those things can be gone in an instant.

 I've known lots of people who get angry because there are always cookies and sweets and other treats available at the office, so angry they think the practice of bringing in treats should be banned, but guess what, no one is forcing them to eat those treats.  They have to learn to deal with temptation. I think that if Kate thinks the surgery will give her the push she needs to start dealing with her life, then good for her, but if she thinks it's an instant fix, and she doesn't have to do any work, well, that could be a disaster. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

Doesn't every surgery carry the risk of death?  I think it is 100% justified for Kevin to be concerned about it.  He did ask her about losing it through diet and exercise and Kate's answer was that it wasn't happening fast enough, that she would be 106 before she reached her goal weight.  Clearly, it is ultimately up to Kate whether she wants to take the risk, but I think it's fine for Kevin to ask questions about it and talk it through with her.  Plus, it's not like she's doing nothing about being obese right now.  She is making progress towards becoming healthier by eating healthier and adding physical activity to her lifestyle.  

[Arynm]

I am adopted. I was a legal adoption in the mid 70s in Tennessee. My parents always told me that I was adopted so I count myself lucky that I didn't have to find out in some convoluted way. My mother told me that she had to wait an entire year before the adoption was complete. That meant that for an entire year, my birth mother could change her mind and take me back. A year. I can't even imagine how stressful and scary that was for my mom. She also said that she had to swear in front of a court that she would raise me as a Christian (we are Jewish). She did it and would have sworn to just about anything for me. Its a true gift that she gave me and while I would like to meet my birth parents at some point, It doesn't, and had never, taken up my entire life like it did Randall.

I can understand what Rebecca did, but I think she made a short sighted decision based on fear not on the well being of her son. She knew William was clean and stable and only he wanted the best for Randall.

Olivia can go to hell, I can't believe that she even went to the cabin let alone dropped her "truth" on Kate like that, nevermind it was right. Mind your business lady, we don't know you.

[Guest]

I think Rebecca had multiple motives, so she isn't being painted as evil for her choice. She was afraid of losing Randall. She was afraid of Jack losing Randall. And she didn't know William other than that he was Randall's biological father who abandoned him at a fire station.  She didn't/doesn't know what his day to day life was like, if he would successfully stay clean for years, etc.  But since the show has chosen to make William a perfect guy in the years following giving up Randall, Randall seems a little more justified in his anger. 

[memememe76]

I don't know how much of William's conversation that Rebecca heard before bolting out the room, but there were some things he said that would make me pause. For instance, him suggesting that he could get a cot for Randall to sleep over. My parents didn't allow me to go on sleepovers with long-time friends. 

As for Jack's physique, he reminds me of Tony Danza. Not everyone was hairy like Tom Selleck. 

[Court]

For me, it wouldn't matter if William was in recovery or still using. Randall would still be justified in his anger. Once he was an adult, it should have been his choice on whether or not to have William in his life. He had questions and William was the one who could provide them.

That doesn't mean that he doesn't love and cherish Rebecca and Jack. It's not black and white.

[Jillybean]

This is my favorite show, and Sterling K. Brown is my favorite actor in it, but I HATED Randall's mushroom trip.  I couldn't think of any circumstances under which Randall would drink a smoothie that some stranger brought to their cabin. And the fact that Kate & Kevin just left him to his own devices outside seemed wholly implausible.  There were so many ways they could have gone with this storyline, and choosing a hallucinatory drug trip seems like such tripe.  The scenes of Randall hallucinating his family in another time rang false to me. I hope they bounce back next week, because this episode was a "miss" in my book.  /UO

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

He was still using back then and had abandoned his child in a fire station (I assume this happened before the laws allowing for anonymous drop-offs at hospitals and fire stations).  I don't think it would have ended as happily for William as you might hope.  

Frankly, I am surprised that Randall didn't have any withdrawal issues after being born to drug-addicted parents.

I can't remember....do we know for sure that Randall's biological mother was an addict?  I remember it kind of being thrown around, but I don't remember William confirming it (although I could be wrong....)

[JenE4]

Damnit, show, you got me right in the heart and may have surpassed the episode 1 frequency of waterworks. And now I need to offer a public apology to Rebecca. (I was the one in the last episode who said that a lot of you were being too hard on Miguel, and that I thought Rebecca was the most egregious character for emotionally scarring all three kids.) But, wow, that locked door scene with Jack's voiceover about how Randall didn't know her struggles, that really got to me. This entire series is going to be a nonstop emotional roller coaster of each character's failings and virtues. Just wait, y'all will be crying in empathy with Miguel, Toby, and even Olivia before you know it!

Edited November 30, 2016 by JenE4

[Jax7917]

I don't really see how rebecca is in the wrong here. She is right. There is no paperwork to keep Randall with her family in case William decides he wants him back. She doesn't know william from a hole in the wall. All she knows is he left his son outside of a fire station which doesn't ring as exactly trustworthy behavior. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I can't remember....do we know for sure that Randall's biological mother was an addict?  I remember it kind of being thrown around, but I don't remember William confirming it (although I could be wrong....)

The second episode where there was the musical montage of William and the mom showed them both clean and sober meeting and then you could tell they were on drugs, etc.  I don't know if it was stated with actual words.

[Cardie]

Quote

Maybe the actress has already started losing weight

Her face looked thinner.

[OtterMommy]

51 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

And I thought Olivia made a valid point to Kate.  Losing the weight will not fix what made her gain the weight in the first place.  Will it help her feel better?  Possibly. For a time. But then something else will replace her fixation with her weight and not being who she wants to be.  The fact that watching Toby eat was an excuse for her to overeat shows that she's not addressing the issues she has with food.   And we've seen that Kate is a very capable, smart woman.  She can kick ass when she needs to.   

I don't disagree that Olivia made a valid point but, in my view, the fact that it came from Olivia made it invalid.  This isn't only because I despise Olivia.  Olivia barely knows Kate--I got the sense that Kevin didn't talk to Olivia about Kate before the Thanksgiving episode.  Hell, Olivia didn't even really know Kevin.  At least, on the other side of things, Kate does know her brother very well.  So, while Kate was making some pretty big assumptions about Olivia, she did at least know what was going on with Kevin.  Olivia really didn't know much about either Kate or Kevin, so her coming in and lecturing Kate smacked me as her just giving a fat-shaming speech.

I do wish that Kevin felt he could say, or could articulate, his concerns to Kate in a way she could hear them (same for Randall, but I'm excusing him on this since he clearly has some other issues to deal with at the moment.)
 

[ClareWalks]

I really enjoyed Sloane's praise of Epcot as being her favorite place because it is so inauthentic. As a huge fan of Disney World, I am right there with her :) Sometimes you just want to travel the world in one day, drinking overpriced alcoholic beverages and viewing an occasional CircleVision film. Ballers gotta ball!

[OtterMommy]

5 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Her face looked thinner.

I thought so as well.  I wonder if the actress may be losing weight faster than the character and they wardrobe department is having to come up with some fixes on it.

[Court]

10 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I can't remember....do we know for sure that Randall's biological mother was an addict?  I remember it kind of being thrown around, but I don't remember William confirming it (although I could be wrong....)

I thought she was and that's how he started using.

As far as no paperwork, that doesn't mean a thing once he turns 18. She knew her child was looking and had questions his entire life. Oddly enough, her keeping this secret from him could lead to her losing Randall as well. Their relationship is going to be changed. For now, he isn't speaking to her.