S03.E09: Who's Dead?

[cali1981]

13 hours ago, pinkelephant3 said:

I think wes was getting a deal for all of the k5 so they all had immunity against her and would finally take her out  nate killed Wes to save annalease

Hmm, I hadn't considered the possibility that Nate killed Wes but that just doesn't seem like something that Nate would do.  Regardless, the cop's case against Annalise just, pardon the bad pun, went up in smoke since Wes never signed the statement incriminating her and sure can't now. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by cali1981

[cali1981]

6 hours ago, starri said:

I knew, I KNEW there was some sexual dimension to Annalise's relationship with Bonnie.

I wasn't totally shocked by that either.  Bonnie may be the most complex character on the show.  She pulls in so many directions sexually, ethically and morally that it's like watching a continuously rotating ink blot test. Liza Weil has just nailed the role.

[sking24450]

I think that is why they charged her with arson and first degree murder.  I think they may switch tactics and claim that she killed Wes because he was going to provide evidence to the police.  And if they retrieve the message on the phone telling him to come over, then they will use it as proof.

[rur]

2 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Any chance Frank was around, since we don't actually know where he was when this took place? I mean we had no idea (well, I had no idea) who had killed Lila since that wasn't revealed until the show wanted to reveal it. So it could very well have been Frank who set this fire and then we find out after the fact via flashback. 

Since Bonnie a) asked Frank to take the fall, and b) said she wanted everyone to be safe (but implying -- I thought -- her, Frank and Anna), I think it's totally possible that Frank decided to blow up the house, knowing that Bonnie wasn't in it and everyone else be damned. 

[Keepitmoving]

So I'm confused, they arrested Anna right on the spot because they what? Figured out right then and there that she must have committed arson? Or, did they bring her in knowing that they thought they had Wes to take her down for the Rebecca murder? Didn't they bring up Rebecca in the interrogation room, which by the way would take Bonnie down first and foremost since she killed her.

Are we sure that Bonnie, Frank and/or Nate didn't find out what Wes was up to and that one of them offed him? Because at least two of them I don't hesitate in knowing that they would kill any of the Keating-5 to protect Anna. 

But yeah, please explain how they can just arrest Anna on arson, or did they turn and arrest her once they started finding a body or two? I can't remember from the flash forwards that we saw of her arrest at the scene.

WTF is up with the boundaries of some of these characters on this show? I can't with Anna and Bonnie locking lips, these two women...oh the damaged. 

And what is up with Laurel kissing Michaela on the lips? She literally took her face in her hand and planted it on and Michaela's like oh well, let me go look at my grade now. Just no reaction. And nobody around them has a reaction.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[dgpolo]

This place has transcripts of the episodes but it is confusing as it rarely says who is saying what.

http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewforum.php?f=188

[helenamonster]

I too am a little confused about which murder Annalise is under arrest for, Wes or Rebecca. But I'm assuming that'll get cleared up after the break.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Also agree that Nate is useless. I mean, why did he remain involved with Annalise for so long? 

Anna has answered this question for us a few times, he's a bitch, he walks around volunteering to be somebody's bitch, LOL.

This show is so foul, I love it. 

But I'm concerned that Wes in death is gonna annoy me more than when his ass was alive. I think that was the main reason I didn't want it to be him. The show doesn't center around him for this viewer, roads that always led back to him would follow with an eye roll from me and a deep sigh every time. Now it's going to be worse in his death, ugh.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm so relieved that it wasn't Nate who was under the sheet.  I'm sure he's a nice actor, but, I never cared for the character Wes, so, his departure is fine with me.  

I'm trying to figure out who had the opportunity to kill Wes.  Most were out at the party.  Bonnie was with Annalise.  Frank seemed confused and wasn't at the house either.  So, is there someone else who arrived at the house when Wes did, besides Nate. I can't see Nate killing Wes on purpose. 

[bantering]

I didn't get the lingering Laurel and Michaela kiss, if I'm honest. I don't really think that's something straight girls go out of their way to do, no matter how happy they are in the moment. Maybe that's what straight male writers think girls do, but I've never seen this happen in real life.

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

So I'm confused, they arrested Anna right on the spot because they what? Figured out right then and there that she must have committed arson? Or, did they bring her in knowing that they thought they had Wes to take her down for the Rebecca murder? Didn't they bring up Rebecca in the interrogation room, which by the way would take Bonnie down first and foremost since she killed her.

I didn't get that either.  They arrested Annalise on arson and murder.  I guess that means someone killed Wes, set the house on fire and then called the police?  I have a feeling it's not Mama Mahoney because that's too damn obvious for this show.

 

18 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I fell for their misdirection when they revealed Wes to be "alive" a couple of weeks back, so his death is actually a real surprise and it's really heartbreaking one, given the life that Wes has had. But to be quite honest, as much as I love Wes as a character and as much as I love Alfred Enoch as eye candy, I think having him be the one under the sheet is the best narrative decision they could have done. It reinvigorates the show, because he was so central to the show with the Annalise/Wes relationship maybe having been the core relationship of the entire show. Now, the other characters can step up to the foreground and relationships will shift. It also works for the promotional angle of the show, because the heavily marketed big death actually was a big death and the show has reaffirmed that nobody on this show really is safe (except for Annalise). It's a really brave decision to kill off their male lead. Kudos to the show's writers. It will be interesting to see how the show will go forward.

I agree.  Either the show will rise because of Wes' death, or it will fall. 

[Keepitmoving]

9 minutes ago, bantering said:

I didn't get the lingering Laurel and Michaela kiss, if I'm honest. I don't really think that's something straight girls go out of their way to do, no matter how happy they are in the moment. Maybe that's what straight male writers think girls do, but I've never seen this happen in real life.

Exactly.

Was that a screen test or something? To get a taste of fan reaction? Well, if so, here's my reaction, they better not mess with Michaela and Asher.  Laurel has a baby and Michaela has a "hell" of a mother issue, shit, an entire family issue, hot mess. Although, I have no issue with Michaela getting closer with Laurel, Laurel will need the support and I've moved past the ring/blackmail stuff, it's time. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Neurochick]

9 minutes ago, bantering said:

I didn't get the lingering Laurel and Michaela kiss, if I'm honest. I don't really think that's something straight girls go out of their way to do, no matter how happy they are in the moment. Maybe that's what straight male writers think girls do, but I've never seen this happen in real life.

When I saw that, I laughed because I got the feeling the writers were like, "let's see if the audience is paying attention," as that kiss was basically a "blink if you miss it" shot, unlike the kiss between Annalise and Bonnie, which was shot in a more romantic way.

[Kira53]

4 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Ok, slow down. Lemme process this lol.

Your theory would explain Nate's motive for killing Wes (whom I love, by the way). And that would explain why Nate was sneaking around Wes' interrogation/interview. He realized Wes was about to spill his guts and killed him to protect Annalise. But did Nate know that Wes would be at the house? 

Why did Annalise call everyone to her house? And then she left to meet Oliver, right? I was tired. Can't remember what that was all about. Where was Frank during all this? 

I said I was going to stop watching this show, but I guess I'll be back after the break for answers, surely to be followed by more questions. 

If Nate killed Wes if would probably have been a crime of opportunity.  But we might see a flashback in the second half of the season of Nate following Wes out of the station.  The writers may not even have decided who killed Wes or even if Wes killed himself.  In the past they have claimed to start a season without deciding who is the murderer.  That is why it is so hard to "solve" the murders.  So much misdirection and the time shifts.  It can be very hard to be sure what happened and when it happened.  I was certain that Wes wasn't under the sheet because the immunity seemed to be happening after Analise was in jail.  I really enjoy the show even if I can't always keep track of when things are happening.  

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

If Nate killed Wes if would probably have been a crime of opportunity.  But we might see a flashback in the second half of the season of Nate following Wes out of the station.  The writers may not even have decided who killed Wes or even if Wes killed himself.  In the past they have claimed to start a season without deciding who is the murderer.  That is why it is so hard to "solve" the murders.  So much misdirection and the time shifts.  It can be very hard to be sure what happened and when it happened.  I was certain that Wes wasn't under the sheet because the immunity seemed to be happening after Analise was in jail.  I really enjoy the show even if I can't always keep track of when things are happening.  

Seeing as they didn't know it was Wes under the sheet until they started writing episode 7, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't know who killed Wes right now. 

I don't think Nate killed Wes at this moment because he's the only one we know was in the house for sure at one point, besides Laurel and now Wes. For all we know, Wes/Nate had a confrontation but he was alive when Nate left.

I also think Laurel came into the house to find Wes dead in the basement. Remember that Laurel was found in the basement, and I assume she was down there when the explosion happened, unless the floor caved into the basement. Maybe Wes went down there as that was the last time he saw Rebecca alive. 

I have other speculations but I'll post it to the speculation thread. 

[dr pepper]

16 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Michaela and her mother Rochelle, love me some Brett Butler. She said she got the cancer and then says I lied. Who lies about cancer? That woman does, LOL. Hot ass mess was that, redneck and ghetto all rolled into one, I enjoyed that thoroughly. "You ungrateful hoe." Then she just chalks it up to I love you and that was just an average mother and daughter fight, LOL. What a mess.

 That character was so well expressed, it bordered on racist stereotyping.

[Keepitmoving]

35 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

 That character was so well expressed, it bordered on racist stereotyping.

Yeah, I was watching the line, but her mother did come off exactly how I thought she would in my head and when I saw that it was Brett Butler in the flash forward well... I definitely noted in a post somewhere on this board a week ago that I thought maybe she was someone who used the foster care system for money. When Michaela said to Asher  that she didn't have a family, that's what I thought, that yeah she was adopted but maybe by someone who was looking for the money mainly and not to be healthy parent.  Then way back when Michaela was telling Aiden's mother about herself, she said yes, I am ghetto trash from the backwoods Bayou, you were right, that she was just hiding it so she could nab a "prince."

I really need to know what Michaela's daily existence was like growing up with her family. I really need to know when exactly, at what age was she when she left home. What exactly is "a long time ago" which are the words she used to tell Asher just how long it was she had said goodbye to her mother. What the hell exactly has she been doing to make money and support herself over this long time ago, because she couldn't have known Aiden that long. She couldn't have left home and hit the jackpot right away and was living off his family especially since she clearly wants and has a pattern of working hard for her education. So she actually has a genuine work ethic that doesn't involve scamming. I need even more details, seems like she's got a bunch of other siblings, like four brothers and two sisters seems like. Is she the youngest? Are any of those siblings biological children of her parents?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[TVHappy9463]

Not buying it. There was another show that swore up and down a character was dead   The actor did the interviews  to support it and then bam,  not dead  

Meggie working at the hospital, access to a body, from the morgue. 

it's all a fake out.   

[Major Bigtime]

Everyone's pupil's were blood red. Scary crazy lighting technique.

[RedheadZombie]

For now, I'm going with Bonnie was asking Frank to take the fall for Sam's and/or Rebecca's murder, rather than killing Wes and blowing up the house.  It makes sense that these things would be considered "taking the fall" for everyone.  I'm not sure how else they're all going to get away with the murders.  I'm assuming that will be part of the second half.  Maybe they can use Frank's history and manipulation by Sam as a defense.  Or staying true to her past, Annalise will frame someone totally innocent, yet unlikable to the audience.  So no one will care.

6 hours ago, Grace19 said:

This is why I'm so mad they killed Wes, it was all for shock value. I don't even think the writers really thought about the massage its sending that in a story where characters like Frank and Bonnie gets away with murder, a character like Wes who have been through so much was killed off and wasted like that. I would not have been this pissed if we didn't explore his back story with his mother. And I don't get it when people blame Wes for killing Annalise's husband, it was an accident that happened because he was protecting a girl from a murderer. Rebeca annoyed me as much as anyone, but at the end of the day, a young girl was murdered and it dose not make Wes a bad guy that deserves to be killed for caring about what happened to her. 
 

It was definitely for shock value, and it pisses me off.  If you haven't decided until episode seven who's going to die, you haven't properly set up the death anyway.  That kind of thing shows in the story.  And the only reason I'm happy Wes is dead, is so everyone on the show and in fandom can stop bitching about everything being Wes's fault.  If fan faves Michaela or Connor were saved by Wes bludgeoning Sam, everyone would call Wes a hero.  And I have no doubt all those fools would have stood by while Sam strangled any one of them - until Wes stepped in.  And Rebecca may have been irritating, but in the end her life was as pitiful as Wes's.  It really bothered me when she promised to be good before Bonnie killed her. 

And to equate Wes accidentally killing Sam to prevent Rebecca's death, to cold-bloodedly killing a young pregnant girl is beyond ridiculous.  It's tiresome.  And since Annalise views Wes as her surrogate son, I'm not sure how she won't go totally off the deep end (she's already half-way there).  I see her drunkenly dancing with another phantom baby.  She may need another visit from mama.

[LaJefaza]

14 minutes ago, TVHappy9463 said:

Not buying it. There was another show that swore up and down a character was dead   The actor did the interviews  to support it and then bam,  not dead  

Meggie working at the hospital, access to a body, from the morgue. 

it's all a fake out.   

This sounds familiar to me...are you talking about Jamal on Empire? I think I have a vague recollection of something like that happening, but it's been a long time since I've cared about that show...

But I think Wes' death being a fakeout would piss viewers off even more than killing him off in the first place. Pretty risky. When viewers realize that they can't trust anything happening onscreen and they're just being manipulated, they're liable to get annoyed and check out completely. People are already irritated by the Wes "being safe" fakeout from a few weeks ago.

Edited November 18, 2016 by LaJefaza

[Dee]

Why does Connor have to be a raging sociopath to be Wes killer?

Asher & Wes both killed people and neither one of them were sociopaths.

[sking24450]

3 minutes ago, Dee said:

Why does Connor have to be a raging sociopath to be Wes killer?

Asher & Wes both killed people and neither one of them were sociopaths.

The only way I see it is if he accidentally killed Wes while he was drunk.  Which would be slightly ironic given all the complaining he has done about Wes and having to cover the Sam thing up.  However, I do think it would so very dark to have another member of the Keating 5 be the one to kill Wes accidentally or not.

[Happytobehere]

17 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

This irritates me and strikes me as a bit of bad faith by the show (the first time I've ever felt this about the show in 3 seasons of watching). To your point, Michel, it wasn't even necessary. I'm just mad they gave me hope that my darling Wes was alive.

 I have to go back and rewatch that episode, was it #7?  I remembered at the time when people were claiming that Wes was proven alive that I didn't believe that to be true, but everyone seemed so convinced, I thought I just blinked and missed it.  However, someone noted today that they didn't think the show lied because the scene right before that featured Frank, who was indeed alive, so that while people assumed the people being confirmed alive was Wes, it was instead Frank.

If i get to rewatch, I'll come back and comment.

Either way, my issue was that ABC's PR people said that about the weekly countdown, not necessarily the show itself, unless someone has link of the show runners ackowledging they helped come up with that bit of promotion.

Does anyone know for certain that Rebecca's brother is indeed in jail? Could be him.

[Milaxx]

18 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I thought it was Nate for sure when Frank was alive. I never considered Wes. Did the actor want to leave or was he fired? Boy, does this suck.

He was sort of fired. He will be back (via flashbacks) for the second half of the season. I would assume he might still be contractually obligated to be available for  further seasons. Dying on a tv show doesn't mean you can't appear in future season whether it's a flashback or dream sequence. In this instance the only thing it means is Alfred Enoch is no longer a series regular.

18 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I mean if the Mahoney's can arrange for a woman to lose her baby via a car crash set up, then they can kill a Wes. 

Wait did Frank kill Sr. Mahoney? He shot him right?

Yes Frank killed Sr. Mahoney

 

18 hours ago, stonehaven said:

......

I wonder if this means Eve will come back...

So much to sift through...i may do a whole show rewatch over the next two months...

It depends on Famke's availability since she is starring on a new show on another network.

17 hours ago, pinkelephant3 said:

Random question and sorry it's a bit off topic and I may have just missed it because of playing on my phone while watching.....but did we ever see any wrap up of the whole incest twins thing/ her trying to kill herself and killing that female DA?

Yes. Caleb did it and killed himself. Philip had hacked his fitbit which placed him at the scene of the crime. Catherine had been covering for Caleb by giving him an alibi, but she was also in contact with Philip. Philip convinced Catherine to tell the truth about Caleb. The show never said specifically but I assume they pinned the murder of Sinclair & shooting of AK on Catherine. They drugged Catherine so she has no memory of it. Basically they framed her for it. My guess is she was given a reduced sentence in exchange for coming clean regarding the murder of their parents. Knowing this show, they could revisit this whole thing next season.

16 hours ago, dgpolo said:

I just had a thought, we now know that Annalise wanted Oliver to hack the DA's office, is that the info she wanted wiped from her phone?

Hopefully they will cover this on the second half of the season, but I assume this was part of as well as evidence of her calling all of the K5 to her house.

12 hours ago, dr pepper said:

I was disappointed that Analise did not actually destroy the immunity idol, i'm sure someone will dig it out of the ashes and claim a free A. That's how this class works, right?

They haven't used it since season 1. Someone asked about it during the Hapstall case and she yelled at them asking if they needed that in order to do their jobs. Additionally since she now runs the clinic she doesn't do that. Laurel's A was a one off.

10 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

She was drunk. By the way, that's how the fire started, right? The alcohol fell into the fireplace and exploded? 

It's questionable how the fire got started. At first glance it would appear the computer/fireplace/alcohol started the fire, but it could have been intentionally set by Frank or whoever killed Wes.

10 hours ago, starri said:

I guess we should have realized it was Wes just by virtue of the fact that his death is truly the one that gives the show the most dramatic possibilities.  It totally works for me, except that it really cuts off any story for Laurel save a role as the grieving widow.  And as far as it being Connor, the only motive he'd have had was thinking Wes was going to rat them all out, and there was no way he could have known that because A) he didn't have his phone, and B) Annalise didn't give anyone details of why she flashed the Keating Symbol.

I am so glad it looks like Oliver is going to figure out Sam's death.  That's been unspoken for too long, and if he's going to be fully a Scooby, he needed to be let in.  And on a personal level, if it helps heal his fucked-up but ultimately good relationship, so much the better.

I knew, I KNEW there was some sexual dimension to Annalise's relationship with Bonnie.

It's was interesting ( and I agree well past time) to see Oliver putting 2 + 2 together.  I remember when Connor showed up on his doorstep, he remarked, "Oh you stink, what's that smoke?" I am interested to see if Oliver falls completely down the rabbit hole will Connor still be attracted to him. 

7 hours ago, Grace19 said:

This is why I'm so mad they killed Wes, it was all for shock value. I don't even think the writers really thought about the massage its sending that in a story where characters like Frank and Bonnie gets away with murder, a character like Wes who have been through so much was killed off and wasted like that. I would not have been this pissed if we didn't explore his back story with his mother. And I don't get it when people blame Wes for killing Annalise's husband, it was an accident that happened because he was protecting a girl from a murderer. Rebeca annoyed me as much as anyone, but at the end of the day, a young girl was murdered and it dose not make Wes a bad guy that deserves to be killed for caring about what happened to her. 
 

I don't see it as shock value. It was plot driven. I am always impressed with a show that is willing to "go there" and kill off a main character. The ripples of this will be long and deep. The thing to remember is these are anti-heroes.  Just like we cheering for Walt to get away with his deeds on Breaking Bad, love Omar ripping and running and Stringerbell doing everything he did, we love watching  characters like this. I am excited to see what comes next. I doubt Frank is let back into Annalise's good graces anytime soon, but he'll be back in Philly and in contact with Bonnie. The fact that we had Wes's back story is why his death has meaning. If he was just another student in AK's class we wouldn't care one bit.

6 hours ago, Grace19 said:

Another thing; the show made oliver a regular just to kill off Wes and replace him with him. If they make Annalise start caring for him as a son, I will break something. To think we still have to deal with useless Nate and annoying Oliver, while Wes is dead.

I hope the show doesn't go there with Michaela/Laurel, I once thought of the possibility, but no, I love Michaela/Asher

Annalise/Bonnie, thought about it before, but big no.

I can't wait to find out who killed Wes, I don't think its going to be suicide, making his death a murder, gives them more story.

At least my baby Michaela is alive and I can't wait to get more of her back story. If Michaela was the one who was murdered, I would not have watched an extra episode, the same why I never watched an extra episode after detective Carter was killed off on person of interest.
 

Conrad wasn't made series regular just to replace Alfred. The show has wanted him since season 1 but the actor wasn't available due to his Broadway commitments. I highly doubt the show plans to make Oliver become Wes 2.0. I do think they plan to continue to explore the Coliver relationship further. Especially if Oliver finds out the truth about Sam's death. 

 

LOVED this finale. I was shocked when it turned out to be Wes. I was happy to see Oliver finally putting the pieces together regarding Sam.

 I wasn't surprised with Annalise drunkenly kissing Bonnie. She is a survivor of child sexual abuse. It's not uncommon for someone like that to act out sexually as a reaction to stress.  My guess is that is what happened when she went to Sam for therapy all those years ago. I also wouldn't be surprised if that's what prompted the affair with Nate. Bonnie is ride or die for Annalise. She knows her well enough to see it for what it was and gently rebuffed her.

I doubt Meggy gets in trouble for crying with Laurel. She said she knew her. I worked in a ER. I've seen doctors, nurse, and residents crying over patients. It happens. Meggy stands more of a chance of getting in trouble for breaking HIPAA than crying over a dead ex boyfriend.

Michaela and her mom was pretty much what I expected. Still I loved the interchange between her and Trishelle. I can't wait to see who they cast as her daddy.

As for who killed Wes, I think so far the suspects are; the Mahoney's, Frank, Nate or Connor. I'd also add Rebecca's brother to the mix since the show brought her death back up. I'll go into more detail in the speculation thread. I also think there will be some question as to whether Frank or the Mahoney's set the fire.

[Keepitmoving]

I just found the shot of the bottle of was that vodka? over the fireplace was for a reason. It was a bit of lingering shot to show her hand placing that bottle where she did. We had seen that Anna was drinking before she decided to start organizing and cleaning up, so why follow the camera to her putting that bottle above the fireplace, if the writers weren't at least thinking of making that the reason for the fire/explosion?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[starri]

20 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

She knows her well enough to see it for what it was and gently rebuffed her.

Maybe this is just me, but I thought I saw Bonnie kissing her back.

[Aquarius97]

26 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

As for who killed Wes, I think so far the suspects are; the Mahoney's, Frank, Nate or Connor. I'd also add Rebecca's brother to the mix since the show brought her death back up. I'll go into more detail in the speculation thread. I also think there will be some question as to whether Frank or the Mahoney's set the fire.

Why are you rulling out Annalise from Wes' murder? You should remember that Annalise calls Wes at 4:20 PM, several hours before calling Laurel and trying to contact the rest of K5. She had plenty of time to kill Wes and prepare the fire thing before Nate appeared in the house.

About Rebecca's brother, why would Levi kill Wes?

[dgpolo]

5 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I just found the shot of the bottle of was that vodka? over the fireplace was for a reason. It was a bit of lingering shot to show her hand placing that bottle where she did. We had seen that Anna was drinking before she decided to start organizing and cleaning up, so why follow the camera to her putting that bottle above the fireplace, if the writers weren't at least thinking of making that the reason for the fire?

When Nate entered the house the fire was out, and even if it wasn't it wouldn't have exploded the way we saw all the windows blow out of the house. If the vodka fell and an ember lit it, it would spread to whatever flammables it could reach and move out from there.

 

31 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

 I wasn't surprised with Annalise drunkenly kissing Bonnie. She is a survivor of child sexual abuse. It's not uncommon for someone like that to act out sexually as a reaction to stress.  My guess is that is what happened when she went to Sam for therapy all those years ago. I also wouldn't be surprised if that's what prompted the affair with Nate. Bonnie is ride or die for Annalise. She knows her well enough to see it for what it was and gently rebuffed her.

Bonnie is a survivor of child sexual abuse too.

[Milaxx]

13 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Bonnie is a survivor of child sexual abuse too.

Yes but that has never been her type of behavior. While it isn't atypical for a survivor of child sexual abuse to behave this way not every survivor does. 

25 minutes ago, starri said:

Maybe this is just me, but I thought I saw Bonnie kissing her back.

Yes but it was the most dispassionate kiss ever. I just never got the impression that Bonnie felt any sexual urges during that kiss.

15 minutes ago, Aquarius97 said:

Why are you rulling out Annalise from Wes' murder? You should remember that Annalise calls Wes at 4:20 PM, several hours before calling Laurel and trying to contact the rest of K5. She had plenty of time to kill Wes and prepare the fire thing before Nate appeared in the house.

About Rebecca's brother, why would Levi kill Wes?

AK has never killed anyone. She is crazy, manipulative and dysfunctional, but she's not a killer. She will cover up a murder to protect those she cares about but she's not a killer. Even if she suspected Wes was going to turn her in, I don't see her killing him.

As for Levi, although he's pretty low on my list of suspects, I could see the writers making the argument that he blames Wes for Rebecca's death and for him getting framed and arrested.

32 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

I just found the shot of the bottle of was that vodka? over the fireplace was for a reason. It was a bit of lingering shot to show her hand placing that bottle where she did. We had seen that Anna was drinking before she decided to start organizing and cleaning up, so why follow the camera to her putting that bottle above the fireplace, if the writers weren't at least thinking of making that the reason for the fire/explosion?

I think it was misdirection. Instead of thinking the fire was intentionally set, have the viewers think AK set the fire accidentally. 

[Michel]

55 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Conrad wasn't made series regular just to replace Alfred.

I know a good many people don't want this, but I still do think, assuming they still want to have Annalise mentor five students, that Simon Drake is going to ease into Wes's spot.  So the Keating Four won't be the Keating Four for too long.

Or they could easily stay at four.  Who knows?

33 minutes ago, starri said:

Maybe this is just me, but I thought I saw Bonnie kissing her back.

She was.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Michel

[Happytobehere]

Damnit, my provider conveniently has the episodes surrounding episode 7 available for viewing, not that one.  I don't like being forced to keep DVR recordings (using up space).  I just need to review that scene that people felt proved Wes was alive.  I pay too much money to my provider for this shit.

[Milaxx]

This scene? If you want isolated scenes youtube is the best place to go. Just search for what you what HTGAWM and you'll get loads of clips.

[SunnyBeBe]

That was a sad scene of Wes on that slab.  I wonder if he was already dead when Nate arrived.  I have an idea. I'll take to speculation thread. 

[secnarf]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I also think Laurel came into the house to find Wes dead in the basement. Remember that Laurel was found in the basement, and I assume she was down there when the explosion happened, unless the floor caved into the basement. Maybe Wes went down there as that was the last time he saw Rebecca alive.

I thought it was pretty fast for her to make her way into the basement - she'd have to be heading directly there, and why would she do that? Based on the timing, I assumed the floor caved in, but there's no guarantee - for all we know, Laurel got a text that we didn't see telling her to go to the basement.

Also on that note - I don't think a bottle of vodka falling into the fireplace would cause an explosion that large.

3 hours ago, LaJefaza said:

But I think Wes' death being a fakeout would piss viewers off even more than killing him off in the first place. Pretty risky. When viewers realize that they can't trust anything happening onscreen and they're just being manipulated, they're liable to get annoyed and check out completely. People are already irritated by the Wes "being safe" fakeout from a few weeks ago.

That's interesting. I don't even view the Wes flash-forward from a few weeks ago as a fakeout. If people thought it happened after the fire, well, that's them making their own assumptions. All the flash-forward really showed was that it was the same day (from clothing of the officers), and the fire seemed to be in the evening of that day, meaning there is plenty of time before the fire for other things to happen. It's not like they showed us Wes and Laurel in bed together with a TV on showing news about the fire, and later on we find out it was just Laurel's dream while she was unconscious. I'd definitely call that a fakeout and people would have a right to be pissed. However, people make a lot of assumptions, and with this show, that's never a safe bet. The point of these flashbacks is that they're only little snippets without any context, and you can't always take them at face value. Remember ADA Sinclair's body falling last season?

[Milaxx]

I don't think Wes's death is a fake out either. Not sure what examples you are thinking of but on Empire they never said Jamal died, they just tried to make us think it was a possibility. ON TWD they said Glenn died when he fell/crawled under the dumpster, but none of the fans believed them, on GoT Jon Snow actually did die, but the red witch brought him back to life.  Wes is really and truly dead. The most we can hope for is scenes of him in flashbacks and dreams.

[secnarf]

3 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I don't think Wes's death is a fake out either. Not sure what examples you are thinking of but on Empire they never said Jamal died, they just tried to make us think it was a possibility. ON TWD they said Glenn died when he fell/crawled under the dumpster, but none of the fans believed them, on GoT Jon Snow actually did die, but the red witch brought him back to life.  Wes is really and truly dead. The most we can hope for is scenes of him in flashbacks and dreams.

I think you misunderstood - I was referring to the comment about how it was a fakeout to show Wes "being safe". I wasn't at all referring to the (IMO very remote) possibility of his actual death being a fakeout. I don't watch any of the shows you referenced.

I would definitely be pissed if Wes wasn't dead after what they showed.

[Panopticon]

6 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

And what is up with Laurel kissing Michaela on the lips? She literally took her face in her hand and planted it on and Michaela's like oh well, let me go look at my grade now. Just no reaction. And nobody around them has a reaction.

I did a double take but thought it was overall in keeping with the Laurel/Michaela dynamic. Laurel has been teasingly aggressive with Michaela on occasion-- making cracks about helping to improve Michaela's sex life, trying to drag Michaela onto the dance floor. There was a gloating/control aspect to it from Laurel's end, and obviously Michaela was not here for it in the aftermath of the engagement ring incident. But at this point Laurel seems to have a real respect for Michaela. Laurel looked genuinely touched a few episodes back when they were all studying and Michaela demanded that the sexual objectification of Laurel stop. Then of course Michaela had to remind Laurel that they aren't friends.

To finish setting it up, immediately before the weird dance/kiss celebration, Michaela made a crack about Laurel being raised in a psych ward, and Laurel gave Michaela an unforced moment of honesty with no anger or guilt-tripping: "my mom."

So in that scene we had Laurel vulnerable from sharing something about her family and genuinely excited and happy for her classmates, so she  fell into her old habit of inappropriately pushing Michaela's buttons. And Michaela was happy enough about the grades, and has softened enough toward Laurel, to let it go.

[Keepitmoving]

1 minute ago, Panopticon said:

I did a double take but thought it was overall in keeping with the Laurel/Michaela dynamic. Laurel has been teasingly aggressive with Michaela on occasion-- making cracks about helping to improve Michaela's sex life, trying to drag Michaela onto the dance floor. There was a gloating/control aspect to it from Laurel's end, and obviously Michaela was not here for it in the aftermath of the engagement ring incident. But at this point Laurel seems to have a real respect for Michaela. Laurel looked genuinely touched a few episodes back when they were all studying and Michaela demanded that the sexual objectification of Laurel stop. Then of course Michaela had to remind Laurel that they aren't friends.

To finish setting it up, immediately before the weird dance/kiss celebration, Michaela made a crack about Laurel being raised in a psych ward, and Laurel gave Michaela an unforced moment of honesty with no anger or guilt-tripping: "my mom."

So in that scene we had Laurel vulnerable from sharing something about her family and genuinely excited and happy for her classmates, so she  fell into her old habit of inappropriately pushing Michaela's buttons. And Michaela was happy enough about the grades, and has softened enough toward Laurel, to let it go.

OK, I'm with you on it all, good analysis, makes sense to me.

I definitely thought it was at least a set up for a different phase, maybe a more positive one going forward between these two ladies.

[Milaxx]

@secnarf I was agreeing with you. I added the rest because there have been several comments upthread where posters said they thought Wes' s death was a fakeout.

As for the AK/Bonnie kiss. Here's an interesting article. I agree with both actresses that Bonnie/AK work best as a mother/daughter dynamic. I guess it's up tp the writers as to whether or not that changes.

Quote

 

“My guess is it’s not going to be sexual, but that’s my guess,” Davis continues. “I don’t know with Pete [Nowalk], though, because she does kiss Bonnie in this episode, but it’s more out of — well, it could be sexual — but it definitely is loneliness, it’s definitely abandonment, it’s definitely in a drunken stupor; it doesn’t make it any less real, though.”

When EW later spoke with Weil, she was hours away from her meeting with Nowalk about what the second half of the season would hold for her character. “I’m very anxious to find out,” Weil says. “The interpretation of what that is on the page and what that ends up being on screen, especially with this show, can always be very, very different things. Moving forward, that’s definitely going to be there — it’s out there.”

While Nowalk has told EW that the kiss could mean anything, Bonnie has always had an interesting relationship with Annalise that toed the line between mother-daughter attachment and single white female obsession. “Boundaries get very blurred with these people,” Weil says. “There’s a real need to connect and feel seen, so I think that can be confusing to everyone. But I think there’s also a maternal thing that they have with each other. They take turns taking care of each other in a very pure way. I don’t know if it’s going to be as sexualized as people might initially think.”....

Davis says. “The barking and pushing her away, I think, is probably a thing of the past, so my prediction is that there will be more of a needing, even as a child needing a parent, and me being the child.”

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by Milaxx

[dr pepper]

20 hours ago, possibilities said:

I thought Bonnie told Frank to kill Wes.

 

That's what i thought too.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, secnarf said:

I thought it was pretty fast for her to make her way into the basement - she'd have to be heading directly there, and why would she do that? Based on the timing, I assumed the floor caved in, but there's no guarantee - for all we know, Laurel got a text that we didn't see telling her to go to the basement.

 

Well, we see Laurel going into the house, calling for Annalise. Even after she closes the door and the camera zooms out on the house, we hear Laurel's voice calling for Annalise. There's a good 10-15 seconds before the explosion happens. The downstairs basement could have been on fire or the main floor. It's hard to tell what's going on. But there's still a bit of time, especially if Laurel heard a noise downstairs or she saw the flames. We don't know what happened in the time Laurel entered and the explosion happened. All we know is that Laurel was found in the basement, so she had to have gotten there somehow. And that's what we'll find out during the Night of Wes. 

[wanderingstar]

Quote

and B) Annalise didn't give anyone details of why she flashed the Keating Symbol.

Is that like the Dark Mark in the Harry Potter books :-)

Quote

I wonder though if the show made a mistake by killing Wes off.  

I'm open to seeing what they do, but so much of the show has been built around Annalise's relationship with Wes, I'm not sure how it's going to work with him gone.

Quote

Mary J looked great. Her character's conversation with Annalise was a bit meta given her real life circumstances.

I hope we see more of her character in the second half of the season.

Quote

Wes was still in the early stages of making a deal with the cops, he hadn't told them anything so far and wouldn't until he got immunity and he left before that so he is not the snitch.

I need clarity on this from the show. Were the police trying to charge Annalise with Rebecca's murder? On the basis of what exactly? Even if Wes had a strong suspicion she was responsible for Rebecca's death, he has no evidence to back that up and neither do the cops.

At this point, I am just assuming the DA's office (led by Atwood) is looking for something - anything - to pin on Annalise after all she's done to them over the years.

Quote

I don't think there is anything sexual between Bonnie and Annalise. However, I do think that Annalise tried to manipulate Bonnie with the kiss and the affection, to make sure that she'd stay loyal to her and not to Frank.

This was the exact thought I had. In fact, when Annalise kissed Bonnie it reminded me of season 1 when she cornered Wes in the bathroom to keep him quiet about her and Nate's affair.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Quote

I wonder though if the show made a mistake by killing Wes off.  

I'm open to seeing what they do, but so much of the show has been built around Annalise's relationship with Wes, I'm not sure how it's going to work with him gone.

I think it opens up a lot of room. There's AK's guilt over not only Rose's death, but now also Wes's. The question as to the parentage of Laurel's baby. We also get space to get more background info on the K5. For example, more on Laurel's mom, and more backstory on Connor and Michaela. Sam's been dead for 2 seasons and we still get story about him. I don't think Wes being dead creates that much of a problem at all.

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Quote

Wes was still in the early stages of making a deal with the cops, he hadn't told them anything so far and wouldn't until he got immunity and he left before that so he is not the snitch.

I need clarity on this from the show. Were the police trying to charge Annalise with Rebecca's murder? On the basis of what exactly? Even if he had a strong suspicion she was responsible for Rebecca's death, he has no evidence to back that up and neither do the cops.

At this point, I am just assuming the DA's office (led by Atwood) is looking for something - anything - to pin on Annalise after all she's done to them over the years.

I think the DA's office has something against AK in general. It feels like they have been trying to take her down since Sinclair and AK somehow manages to outsmart them. I remember earlier in the season Soroya talking to that board member about her suspension. It feels like someone is in the backgorund pulling strings trying to get at AK by whatever means they can. Atwood is just the latest player. The sad thing is she's all attitude and jealousy. I honesty believe she only wanted Nate because AK had him and he's dumb enough to be easily manipulated.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Milaxx

[Black Knight]

Ah, Wes. I liked him fine and didn't want to see him go per se (I wanted it to be Nate), but the character wasn't one of my favorites, either. However, I really like Alfred Enoch and I am going to miss him very much after the flashbacks to Wes's final hours of life are done. There's just something about his physicality that always intrigued me - that long, lean neck and that long, lean body, and the way he'd move his head, and his body language. I don't mind losing the character, but I am bummed to lose the actor.

The show's set up Bonnie as suspect numero uno for Wes's murder, which probably means it's not her (which relieves me, as I can only imagine that would lead to her departure from the show and she's one of the characters I really don't want to lose). But for now they're pointing the finger at her, what with Wes being talked to about Rebecca by the police. Bonnie could have found out about that easily enough because Wes's lawyer is someone Bonnie knows, and got to represent Wes, so chances are he called her after Wes fired him. I wouldn't normally remember a plot detail like that, but when Bonnie first recommended him Annalise immediately accused her of sleeping with him, so that stuck in my memory.

Which brings me to Bonnie and Annalise. Heh. I said in an earlier episode thread that I don't understand their relationship and I don't ever want the writers to explain their fascinatingly weird dynamic because any explanation would necessarily be reductive. And I loved how the writers handled it here: We got confirmation that both women are at least willing to go there, which wasn't a huge surprise, and yet nothing at all is clearer because their motives are so ambiguous. Does Bonnie actually want to be Annalise's lover, or was she just going along because she usually goes along with whatever Annalise does? And on Annalise's side, she was obviously motivated by the Frank thing - I found it hilarious the way she silently went nuts when she heard Bonnie had spent the night with him, and of course once she finally went to see Bonnie after ignoring her calls for a while, she wanted to know if Bonnie really did sleep with Frank - she's jealous, but jealous how? Is she actually sexually jealous of Bonnie? Or just platonically jealous in that she wants Bonnie to be loyal only to her and she realizes that as long as Bonnie is technically a free woman there's always going to be the possibility of Frank or some other guy dividing Bonnie's loyalties? (If I remember correctly, Annalise didn't know about Bonnie and Asher while they were actually seeing each other, so she hasn't really contended with this before.) In other words, did Annalise kiss Bonnie because she's actually attracted to Bonnie, or did she just kiss Bonnie because she figured it would strengthen her hold on Bonnie? Again, who the hell knows? Probably not even they know what they are doing with each other or why. But that's why I really hope Bonnie isn't the one who killed Wes, because I do think that would finish the relationship with Annalise. (If any of the core group killed Wes, that person is done with the rest of them. That group will tolerate all manner of crimes committed against outsiders, but not murder of one of their own.)

[wanderingstar]

Annalise and the K5 have racked up a LONG list of enemies (Levi - Rebecca's foster brother; Catherine Hapstall-I'm guessing she's not happy about sitting in jail for a crime she didn't commit; the Mahoneys). Any one of them could have rigged that explosion.

Quote

And on Annalise's side, she was obviously motivated by the Frank thing - I found it hilarious the way she silently went nuts when she heard Bonnie had spent the night with him, and of course once she finally went to see Bonnie after ignoring her calls for a while, she wanted to know if Bonnie really did sleep with Frank - she's jealous, but jealous how? Is she actually sexually jealous of Bonnie? Or just platonically jealous in that she wants Bonnie to be loyal only to her and she realizes that as long as Bonnie is technically a free woman there's always going to be the possibility of Frank or some other guy dividing Bonnie's loyalties?

I think she's enraged that Bonnie would ever have loyalty to anyone but her. Same with Frank. Half the reason Annalise is mad at him is because he kept a secret with Sam. Annalise is like a damn mafia boss - she demands unquestioning loyalty - or else.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[vanarnd1]

7 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I fell for their misdirection when they revealed Wes to be "alive" a couple of weeks back, so his death is actually a real surprise and it's really heartbreaking one, given the life that Wes has had.

This is what threw me off. I ruled Wes out because I thought the lead in to the finale was anyone shown on screen at the end of previous episodes was not going to be under the sheet. I thought the suspense was well done, but if I am remembering the premise correctly, they did kind of "cheat" by showing Wes but still having him die.

I am kind of torn on Wes being killed. I pulled for him as a character because of all the trauma he went through, but he always seemed to be the the cause of the team's problems. Even this season I don't think he even gave an good explanation for lying about seeing Mahoney in New York which made things worse for the Keating 5.  Also we know the second half of this season will be about finding out how Wes died, and if they had killed off Frank or Nate it wouldn't have had the same emotional impact. Even in that hospital scene I think the visceral reaction of the group was more about the fact that someone from the core group was actually killed over the lies and deception they have all been forced into, and it made them aware of their own mortality.  I think going forward the show might have more room to breathe without Wes in the present tense.

And a small aside, the music when Nate and Laurel entered the house was the creepiest and most ominous I remember hearing in recent memory. This show really is a emotional roller coaster ride that is unmatched by anything else on TV right now.

[Milaxx]

23 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

The show's set up Bonnie as suspect numero uno for Wes's murder, which probably means it's not her (which relieves me, as I can only imagine that would lead to her departure from the show and she's one of the characters I really don't want to lose). But for now they're pointing the finger at her, what with Wes being talked to about Rebecca by the police. Bonnie could have found out about that easily enough because Wes's lawyer is someone Bonnie knows, and got to represent Wes, so chances are he called her after Wes fired him. I wouldn't normally remember a plot detail like that, but when Bonnie first recommended him Annalise immediately accused her of sleeping with him, so that stuck in my memory.

I didn't read that scene as Bonnie setting Wes up. That's the sort of housekeeping, caretaking she always does for Annalise. It's right up there with hiding her junk food from Nate, getting a schedule of AA meetings for her and getting info from the VA. 

[Bama]

5 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

 

I just found the shot of the bottle of was that vodka? over the fireplace was for a reason. It was a bit of lingering shot to show her hand placing that bottle where she did. We had seen that Anna was drinking before she decided to start organizing and cleaning up, so why follow the camera to her putting that bottle above the fireplace, if the writers weren't at least thinking of making that the reason for the fire/explosion?

 

The fire was out and the bottle of vodka was on the floor by the busted up laptop when Nate came in the room.

 

[Pollock]

Well, here went my eye candy! Silver lining: I don't have to feel like a dirty old woman anymore when I think Dean Thomas is super hot with facial hairs.

Anyway: for those who think Bonnie had him killed or killed Wes herself. How do we reconcile that with all the "she won't survive this" talk about Frank offing himself and all that? Real question. Because if Frank's death would break Annalise, how Wes's death, her surrogate son, could be surmontable? Or was it a case of short term solution?

Also, I still can't believe Wes really turned on Annalise. Wes talking to the police for immunity could be a convulated plot between them. He's firing his lawyer who was hostile to Annalise, he's stalling the immunity agreement when it seems he didn't need to because it was already a blanket immunity (if google isn't mistaking me, all his crimes relating to his testimony would already been covered hence the detectives' surprise and frustration?)... My theory went down the drain when last week episode faked my ass out to let us think the conversation with the detectives was happening when Annalise was already in jail but now that the scene at the precinct is set 6 hours before the explosion, I'm putting it back on the table!
Is there a timeline avalaible somewhere?