S03.E09: Who's Dead?

[maddie965]

Although I do prefer Bonnie with Frank (please, more of that), I wouldn't object to some Annalise/Bonnie action. I guess any interaction between those three is GOLD to me.

My thoughts on Wes: 1. He commited suicide; 2. Frank and Bonnie killed him. Connor was nowhere near that house, IMO. And now that Oliver knows the truth about the Keating5, hopefully our damaged boy can find some peace in his arms...

Never thought I would fall in love with Michaela, but I just did. Well done, writers!!!

[Milaxx]

On 11/22/2016 at 7:51 AM, maddie965 said:

Some people said the writers killed Wes for the shock value. Hey, shock value is the reason I watch this show. I need for it to be shocking , outrageous , fucked up. Otherwise what's the fun? Wes commited the ultimate crime on this series: he was boring. Now, Dead Wes is so much more interesting! Not as interesting as Alive Frank , but hey, that's tough competition there. Only Bonnie and Annalise are more fascinating than Frank...

I just spent a few days rewatching the series from season 1.  (Hey, I get bored!)

What struck me watching it now that I know now how it ends is hoe much the whole thing reads like a Greek tragedy. It's almost like Wes was dead man walking the minute Annalise took him off the wait list. I'd also amend my statement regarding his death being for pure shock value. I think in part it was because it's lets us the viewers know no character is safe, but it's also helps drive the story. Both on screen and behind the scenes nearly every character on the show has a connection to Wes. The ripples from his death are going to be far reaching.

On 11/22/2016 at 8:10 AM, jhlipton said:

Bonnie definitely "belongs" to Annalise, more than anyone else, but I hope that, other than a drunken kiss, there isn't anything sexual between them.  We know that Annalise is definitely bi, but I don't think I've seen anything that indicates Bonnie likes women (or even just Annalise) "that way".

I don't think it's sexual but they are connected in an almost symbiotic way. They "belong" to each other.

Edited November 23, 2016 by Milaxx

[NUguy514]

I was out of town and unable to watch until last night, but YESSSSSS!!!!  When I realized it was Wes under the sheet, no lie, I got up off my couch and started doing a happy dance.  With singing.  Boy, BYEEEEEEEE!

[jhlipton]

10 hours ago, Milaxx said:

I don't think it's sexual but they are connected in an almost symbiotic way. They "belong" to each other.

YES to the gazillionth power.

[Milaxx]

Just rewatched this episode. I don't think Wes is/was the snitch. After they pull out Rebecca's picture he fires his lawyer. He then clarifies that they want him to snitch on AK, but never signs the deal. In fact the minute they leave him he checks the message from AK, sneaks out of the police station and somehow ends up at AK's house.

[truthaboutluv]

I thought it was made clear in the finale that Wes wasn't the anonymous caller and that's one of the mysteries moving forward. Because we're clearly shown Wes being confused as to why the police wants to speak to him and he is surprised when they start questioning him about Annalise. I think the question with Wes is was he seriously going to take an immunity plea and sell Annalise out. I personally don't think he would.

Edited November 25, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

Just rewatched this episode. I don't think Wes is/was the snitch. After they pull out Rebecca's picture he fires his lawyer. He then clarifies that they want him to snitch on AK, but never signs the deal. In fact the minute they leave him he checks the message from AK, sneaks out of the police station and somehow ends up at AK's house.

Exactly, plus he didn't even know why he was called down to the station until he got there. Once he realized they were throwing Rebecca in his face that's when he got pissed and felt that his lawyer set him up and he fired him. I have lots of doubts and confusion on a lot of things but Wes NOT being the snitch isn't one of them. Connor and Laurel are the only two of the Keating-5 on record as not caring if they got Anna out of their lives. There's a scene with all of them reacting to her possibly losing her job/license which I found  revealing in terms of how they truly feel about Anna.  Michaela defends her something about trying to take down powerful women , Wes is incredulous as to why Laurel would wish that upon her until Laurel says cause she'll finally be out of our lives. I forgot what Connor says but it sure as hell isn't anything in defense of Anna that's for sure.  Lets just say that at the end of that scene it was clear to me that Connor and Laurel would have no problem getting Anna out of their lives.  This scene is not the one where they confront her at the house, it's from earlier in the season where they were all sitting around in that study room that they work in.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

I'm leaning towards Connor being the snitch. I go back and forth on who killed Wes (Connor or Laurel, long shot Mahoney). Connor is extremely resentful. I may chat some more about this in the speculation thread. 

[possibilities]

But neither Connor nor Laurel knew about where Rebecca's body was buried. They could not have snitched on that subject. They didn't even know for sure that she was dead.

[Milaxx]

I don't think they snitched on the Rebecca body discovery, but they could have informed about Wes's connection to Rebecca. All the cops knew was that she was a client of AK, which anyone could have found out by watching the news and that Wes dated Rebecca. Connor or Laurel could have informed them of that. Some of the K5 also blamed Wes's obsession with Rebecca as the reason things went down the way they did.

[Keepitmoving]

They knew except for Asher that she was being held in Anna's basement.  This show is so much that I can't even remember why they were holding her there in the first place. I can't even remember what her initial crime was? 'Why was Anna defending her in the first place? Can't remember why she was in Anna's house either. I can't remember what evidence Nate sent her in there to find. 

[Keepitmoving]

Also, who's to say that the cops aren't playing dirty because Atwood certainly is and they work for her or at least work hand in hand with the DA. So, who's to say that they actually found the body? We don't have to take their word for it. But the snitch planted enough of a bug in their ear that they thought they could use it to get Wes to help them fill in the rest. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

Also, why does Connor not have his own apt.? Why is he still leasing his apt.? Wasn't he leasing his apt? Did he decide to lease it just so he could move in with Oliver? He's not poor, if  Michaela can afford a place, and I'm still trying to figure out where she gets her money from...then Connor can definitely afford a place.  What am I missing with his character? This repressed rage that they keep hinting at, has it always been there or did it just come about because of all the shit that's gone down since he met Anna and the other Keating -5? I'm thinking not. Do we know anything about his father? Because everything seems cool, and loving with his sister and mother so...I feel I missing something here with this character. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[DearEvette]

I think if anyone pointed the police toward Rebecca being possibly dead it was Eggs.  The last time we saw him, he was being hauled away on a drugs posession charge.  He believes Rebecca is dead and that Annalise had something to do with Rebecca's death.  We don't know where heis now is in jail? Is he trying to negotiate for a lightersentence?  If he is talking about hanging out with the K5 trying to find out about Rebecca and th DA got wind of it and they see it as a way to sticking Annalise with a murder charge then yeah, i could see that.  

The problem with NOT having a real body is their plans fall apart in the event an alive and well Rebecca comes walking through the door. The only other option is is they use the possibility of Rebecca to lure Wes into giving them something more concrete.

Edited November 24, 2016 by DearEvette

[truthaboutluv]

17 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Also, why does Connor not have his own apt.? Why is he still leasing his apt.? Wasn't he leasing his apt? Did he decide to lease it just so he could move in with Oliver? He's not poor, if  Michaela can afford a place, and I'm still trying to figure out where she gets her money from...then Connor can definitely afford a place.  What am I missing with his character? This repressed rage that they keep hinting at, has it always been there or did it just come about because of all the shit that's gone down since he met Anna and the other Keating -5? I'm thinking not. Do we know anything about his father? Because everything seems cool, and loving with his sister and mother so...I feel I missing something here with this character. 

Connor has repressed rage? Because I haven't seen that. I've seen someone fraught with guilt about what happened and resentful towards Annalise and Wes, who yes, he largely blames for his being a part of a murder. As for the apartment situation - yes, he leased his apartment when he moved in with Oliver and I'm guessing it wasn't immediately available to him when they broke up. We were shown a scene of Connor looking at apartments, asking Oliver for his opinion, after they'd broken up and Oliver insisting that he didn't have to rush out, that they could still be friends.

Except that didn't work out too well and the situation became unlivable, so he went to Michaela's. As to why he was still there, well that's because this show's timeline is insane and so despite ALL the drama that's happened, it's actually only been like two weeks or so tops, that Connor was living with Michaela.

YMMV, but I continue to be fascinated by this determination to paint Connor as this psychopath. We have characters like Frank, Bonnie, hell Annalise who are all so incredibly fucked up and for whatever reason, there is just this determination by some viewers that Connor is just this raging or undercover psycho. When from where I'm sitting Connor and Michaela have had maybe the most normal reactions to this entire fucked up reality they now exist in.

Hell I'm sometimes uncomfortable by how normal and back to his casual/fratboy ways Asher is considering he very deliberately and coldly backed his car over an innocent women. It honestly seems like Asher has almost no guilt or conflicted emotions over that situation. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Milaxx]

Connor describes himsel as, "charming and charismatic on the outside but inside a ball of repress pain." when every one was using their own real life experiences to take the final. I don't however think Connor is a psychopath by any means. I think he's angry, and rightly so. I could see him arguing with Wes. Perhaps the writers are giving us a red herring by showing him threatening Wes. I dunno. I will say, if he played any part in Wes' death I do believe it will turn out to be accidental. 

1 hour ago, truthaboutluv said:

Hell I'm sometimes uncomfortable by how normal and back to his casual/fratboy ways Asher is considering he very deliberately and coldly backed his car over an innocent women. It honestly seems like Asher has almost no guilt or conflicted emotions over that situation. 

100% agree with you on this. Everyone else has experienced some level of guilt and angst over Sam, the kidnapping & disappearance of Rebecca and to a lessor extent the Hapstals. Asher went on a drunken binge following his dad's death but has shown zero remorse regarding his killing Sinclair.

[Milaxx]

1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

 

Also, why does Connor not have his own apt.? Why is he still leasing his apt.? Wasn't he leasing his apt? Did he decide to lease it just so he could move in with Oliver? He's not poor, if  Michaela can afford a place, and I'm still trying to figure out where she gets her money from...then Connor can definitely afford a place.

 

He sub-leased his apartment when he moved in with Oliver. I have no idea why he didn't either get his own apartment back or rent another, especially once it became clear that he and Oliver were not getting back together.

 

2 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

They knew except for Asher that she was being held in Anna's basement.  This show is so much that I can't even remember why they were holding her there in the first place. I can't even remember what her initial crime was? 'Why was Anna defending her in the first place? Can't remember why she was in Anna's house either. I can't remember what evidence Nate sent her in there to find. 

It was Wes. For some reason he became suddenly suspicious of Rebecca and eventually it lead them to tying Rebecca up along with the K5 in AK's house. They stashed her downstairs when someone ( I forget who Sinclair maybe?) came by. AK was defending her because Wes thought she was getting railroaded and asked AK to take her case after he got caught pretending to be a lawyer and went to see her in jail. Rebecca left her phone that had the peen pic at Wes's house. The phone belonged to Lila, but Rebecca had it. Once they discovered Sam's involvement I think AK was defending her in the attempt to not have the affair with Sam come out. Nate was sort of snooping, possibly double crossing AK and encouraged Rebecca to get data from Sam's computer that would prove he was in Philly the night Lila was murdered. That's how Rebecca ended up in the house that night.

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I think if anyone pointed the police toward Rebecca being possibly dead it was Eggs.  The last time we saw him, he was being hauled away on a drugs posession charge.  He believes Rebecca is dead and that Annalise had something to do with Rebecca's death.  We don't know where heis now is in jail? Is he trying to negotiate for a lightersentence?  If he is talking about hanging out with the K5 trying to find out about Rebecca and th DA got wind of it and they see it as a way to sticking Annalise with a murder charge then yeah, i could see that.  

The problem with NOT having a real body is their plans fall apart in the event an alive and well Rebecca comes walking through the door. The only other option is is they use the possibility of Rebecca to lure Wes into giving them something more concrete.

Levi (Eggs was Rebecca) is a possibility but I think he's a long shot. Odds are he's still in jail and no one has connected him to any of this. The only people who knew for sure that Rebecca was dead was AK, Bonnie and Frank. The only ones who knew where the body was was Frank and maybe the guy at the storage place. Wes only found out Rebecca was dead when the police showed him the file.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Connor has repressed rage? Because I haven't seen that.

I could have sworn that's what he said in his argument for Ted Bundy, and each of their arguments was a reflection of their characters IMO. Laurel with the mental illness, Asher with his second chances....I just get the impression that, something is balled up in there, otherwise, what? He's only got Oliver and that trifling relationship going on. Whatever it is, there's got to be more.  He's too major of a character and he's the only one who they haven't delved into his back ground like they've done with the rest. He should be next. 

Quote

Connor describes himsel as, "charming and charismatic on the outside but inside a ball of repress pain." 

Right, here it is, and this just can't be about Oliver, or it shouldn't be IMO. They got to give him something more to be in a state of repressed pain besides Oliver, because IMO Oliver is NOT worth all that.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

t was Wes. For some reason he became suddenly suspicious of Rebecca and eventually it lead them to tying Rebecca up along with the K5 in AK's house. They stashed her downstairs when someone ( I forget who Sinclair maybe?) came by. AK was defending her because Wes thought she was getting railroaded and asked AK to take her case after he got caught pretending to be a lawyer and went to see her in jail. Rebecca left her phone that had the peen pic at Wes's house. The phone belonged to Lila, but Rebecca had it. Once they discovered Sam's involvement I think AK was defending her in the attempt to not have the affair with Sam come out. Nate was sort of snooping, possibly double crossing AK and encouraged Rebecca to get data from Sam's computer that would prove he was in Philly the night Lila was murdered. That's how Rebecca ended up in the house that night.

Thanks, that's how much shit has gone down on this show, dead bodies piling up and I just can't keep up with the connections. Just simply remembering Rebecca's connection to Lila escapes me.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

 

100% agree with you on this. Everyone else has experienced some level of guilt and angst over Sam, the kidnapping & disappearance of Rebecca and to a lessor extent the Hapstals. Asher went on a drunken binge following his dad's death but has shown zero remorse regarding his killing Sinclair.

The problem with Asher is he still has a lot of growing up to do, he's immature and not yet capable of all the introspection he should be having. He's still very unaware. With answering Michaela's phone and being fixated on her relationship with her mom, that annoyed me because it was about him. In their discussion, he kept talking about wishing his father was around to still talk to, and we know his mother disowned him, he said he lost all his family.  As if that had anything to do with Michaela's situation. He was projecting and it is still all about him. Now he's laying in Michaela's lap for coddling, eating her cereal, getting his big and little head rubbed and I'm waiting for a more mature Asher to come to the table. Like what else you got man, what are you bringing to the table? I assume that Wes dying and the shit that is going on with Michaela's mother might be in part a story line to help him grow up. I think the actor Matt, did say something to this effect about his relationship with Michaela and something about growing up and making some realizations because he's so wet behind the ears and far behind the other Keatings in his awareness. 

I'll tell ya, if he's not there for Michaela, I'm going to start getting annoyed, I'm tired of guys screwing her over. That was one of things she said, that she's expecting, when she hesitated to take him seriously about having some legitimate relationship, that she has been there for him and when she needs it where will he be?

Edited November 24, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

36 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Right, here it is, and this just can't be about Oliver, or it shouldn't be IMO. They got to give him something more to be in a state of repressed pain besides Oliver, because IMO Oliver is NOT worth all that.

I don't think all that repressed pain from Connor is or should be about Oliver.  It's why I posted in the Connor thread that we need more backstory on Connor. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Milaxx

[FormerMod-a1]

Going by the quotes here it looks like he said "Repressed pain" not "Repressed rage".   Pain and rage are not the same thing, and while they can often be correlated it is not the same.  

[truthaboutluv]

22 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

Going by the quotes here it looks like he said "Repressed pain" not "Repressed rage".   Pain and rage are not the same thing, and while they can often be correlated it is not the same.  

Exactly. Saved me from having to type it. Not to mention that if he made that comment after Sam's murder, I'd say being a part of the murder and cover-up of another human being, could most certainly contribute to repressed pain. Because he lives with the guilt of that every single day. 

I don't mind getting more backstory on Connor. It just sometimes seems that starting back in S2, he somehow got seen as this selfish whiner and this season as some undercover psycho and that baffles me. Connor tells Annalise he won't shoot her, tells her he hates her when she backs them all in a corner by telling Asher they killed Sam and goes off crying and somehow this made him self serving, whiny and selfish. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Milaxx]

I'm confused. I don't recall seeing anyone post that Connor is a whiner or an undercover psycho.

[Keepitmoving]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

I'm confused. I don't recall seeing anyone post that Connor is a whiner or an undercover psycho.

I don't think he's psychotic either and I'm right there with him in being somewhat annoyed at how Wes was the chosen one. Sorry, but I don't see Anna as treating them all the same she clearly has her favorites,I get it where Wes is concerned,  they have history. But I don't like it because her favorites aren't mine LOL.  I'm totally feeling Michaela and Connor's need to band together since Anna doesn't take them into her confidence she picked Laurel and Wes a long time ago as her go twos outside of Bonnie and Frank. And for a time, Asher had good protection since he was with Bonnie. So damn straight that Connor and Michaela felt they pretty much had to rely on one another.  So...I'm not one of those viewers who takes all the blame off the Keating -5 because they are adults, but I am also not the viewer who is like oh poor Anna because of those ungrateful Keating-5 who she's sacrificed so much  to protect, yeah, nope, doesn't work for me. 

By the way, in terms of them being in Anna's house the night of Sam's murder, it wouldn't be a strange argument at all to justify any of the Keatings in Anna's house, that's where they work and it isn't a 9-5 gig. So they can work at her house all hours of the night if need be. They have even been in that house when Anna wasn't there. She's arrived home at that house to greet them there a time or few. So that right there takes care of breaking and entering for any of the Keating-5, Rebecca on the other hand, there is no case for her being there, or maybe there is since she was their client. Yeah, she could be in that house too, a case can certainly be made for her presence there. So charging them with breaking and entering, that's off the table, that argument can't be sold.  All they had to do was jack up Sam's character, paint him as deranged and going off the rails, frame him for the Lila murder as in she died by his hands and not Frank's and all the disaster that resulted from Sam's murder may have been avoided. They might have gotten away with self-defense if they tried harder.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, Milaxx said:

I'm confused. I don't recall seeing anyone post that Connor is a whiner or an undercover psycho.

The word psycho specifically may have not been used but go read the S2 thread, particularly the episode that revealed who shot Annalise. Yes, whiny was used quite a few times and has been used many times, as well as selfish. Not to mention the many times it's been referenced how he made that guy kill himself when he had sex with him and used him and then didn't care.  

Never mind that one, the guy was exposed along with two other people of trying to screw over their boss, two, the boss was the one who insulted and taunted him to his death and three, Connor was very freaked out and broken up about it. But that incident is often brought up as his being "just as bad" as all the others and yet he constantly whines about Annalise or Wes ruining his life. 

[Milaxx]

What does that have to do with this episode or even what's happening in season 3? 

[secnarf]

43 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

They might have gotten away with self-defense if they tried harder.

Or tried at all? ;)

4 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

What does that have to do with this episode or even what's happening in season 3? 

Because people are hypothesizing that Connor killed Wes, largely due to the issues people have mentioned.

I have to say, I am 100% not on board with Connor being a psychopath, or even especially whiny (he's no more whiny than any of the others, IMO), and the first time I watched this episode I took Connor's expression as one of shock. But, upon re-watch, you can hear the music become more ominous as the camera pans to him, and he doesn't look all that shocked - mostly stone-faced. If I contrast that to Connor's very shocked expression when, for example, Oliver tells Connor that he is HIV+, it's quite a difference.

I still don't think Connor killed Wes, but his expression did seem odd and I feel like the show is trying to make him look guilty. Maybe he went to the house after finishing with Thomas, saw dead Wes lying there and high-tailed it out before he ended up involved in another murder? Or maybe he really was just shocked, but it seems like a bit of an odd acting/directing/editing choice if that is the case.

[truthaboutluv]

16 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

What does that have to do with this episode or even what's happening in season 3? 

It's answered below but how quickly was Connor pointed at as likely killing Wes in this thread? And there's the apparent repressed rage. Also, the history with Pax was brought up this season when debating who was right or wrong in the Connor and Oliver breakup. Finally, I was commenting on a trend I'd noticed since the second season with comments regarding the character. I was asked about my comment and explained why I said it.

[Milaxx]

I'm still not seeing anyone calling Connor a psychopath or whiny for that matter. At least not recently. I can however see how the writers could justify Connor killing Wes, Although if they did go down that path I could only see it happening accidentally in the heat of an argument. (Then again, the same could be said for Laurel). I also wonder if Connor kills Wes is being planted as a sort of red herring super obvious choice.

I've also seen Bonnie, Frank, Laurel and even the Mahoneys floated as suspects in regards to who killed Wes. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Milaxx

[Happytobehere]

46 minutes ago, secnarf said:

Or tried at all? ;)

Because people are hypothesizing that Connor killed Wes, largely due to the issues people have mentioned.

I have to say, I am 100% not on board with Connor being a psychopath, or even especially whiny (he's no more whiny than any of the others, IMO), and the first time I watched this episode I took Connor's expression as one of shock. But, upon re-watch, you can hear the music become more ominous as the camera pans to him, and he doesn't look all that shocked - mostly stone-faced. If I contrast that to Connor's very shocked expression when, for example, Oliver tells Connor that he is HIV+, it's quite a difference.

I still don't think Connor killed Wes, but his expression did seem odd and I feel like the show is trying to make him look guilty. Maybe he went to the house after finishing with Thomas, saw dead Wes lying there and high-tailed it out before he ended up involved in another murder? Or maybe he really was just shocked, but it seems like a bit of an odd acting/directing/editing choice if that is the case.

But if you a Connor supporter see that the presentation of his reaction was designed to make him look suspicious, especially in the face of his threat to kill Wes, then why are you ascribing anything other than that presentation and its implications to others.  When presented with the possibility, people speculate about what, why and how things could have happened.  This is not an anti-Connor reaction, it is a he is clearly being presented as a possible suspect and I'm putting the pieces of all we have seen together to see where the showrunners could be going that would make him as a suspect/guilty party seem not just plausible, but reasonable.

Do I think Connor could have done it, yes.  Do I think he did do it, well that would depend on when we get the reveal of the killer and how that reveal is presented. If the show remains true to its prior seasons, I suspect we will know by season's end.  If it is revealed only to the viewers, then Connor could be guilty and we go through the journey of watching him try to remain undetected by Annnalise and Company as well as the authorities.  If the killer is discovered by all, I think Connor will not be the killer as I doubt the show wants to take out two members of the K5 in one season.  In the latter scenario, Laurel would work best as the killer because if she is pregnant with Wes' child, I can see Annalise and the gang coming together to protect her for the child's sake.  This however, is risky and in light of taking the chance on killing off Wes, the show will likely go with someone outside of the main cast as the culprit.  My preference in this matter remains the same as the #underthesheet mystery; as long as it is not Frank, I'm good.  

I have alternately liked and outright despised all of the characters on this show, Frank included, but while I would be okay with Connor being the killer, just as I would have been fine with him as the victim, I don't particularly like or dislike his character more or less than any other character.  I have slammed all of them, Wes included, but that feeling is fluid.  For instance, Asher has long been might least favorite and I initially hated his being paired with Michaela, not because I love her, but because I felt the pairing was ridiculous on its face.  However, somehow, this couple has morphed into my favorite pairing on the show and the one I hope actually remains in tact through and beyond the ending of the show. So goes the ebb and flow on a show with flawed and gray characters.  This is what contributes to the show being enjoyable for me, it is not static.  I can hate a character one week and be completely on their side three weeks later.  Hell, by season's end, I could be back to hating Frank and regretting my desire for him to be alive and not Wes' killer.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Happytobehere

[possibilities]

Just from watching the show, I never would have taken seriously that Connor is the killer, but the idea has been floated in the forum here, so I guess now it's on the table. I think some of us are just expressing surprise and not really agreeing that it feels plausible, though I admit that TV shows can cook up whatever they want whether all viewers find it plausible or not. And for sure, if they show us more scenes backing it up, I guess I'll have to accept it. But to me it would be very tortured plotting, character retcon, and seriously annoying. And in general the show has not resorted to twists I feel that way about, so I'm hoping they don't go that way.

I don't put it past them to make a red herring out of him, though. That for sure is something they do.

I think it would be interesting if they just tell us right away how Wes died, and it's a straightforward, reasonable, and not particularly shocking series of events (the Mahoney's had him killed then wired A's house to explode with his corpse inside), and the rest of the season turns on the character fallout, not the weekly mystery unravelling dynamic they had going on with "who's under the sheet?" Annalise will fall apart, and someone still has to get her out of jail, and there's also Oliver finding out about the murdering that's been going on, and that stuff is plenty to fill the remaining episodes, even without "who killed Wes?" being a giant mystery. It could be psychological drama rather than whodunnit. At least until next fall....

[Milaxx]

54 minutes ago, secnarf said:

  1 hour ago, Keepitmoving said:

They might have gotten away with self-defense if they tried harder.

They lost the self defense claim the minute they went from the communal/work related portion of the house and Sam specifically asked them to leave. At that point Sam was protecting himself. IIRC Laurel said as much when one of them (I forget who, Michaela maybe?) said they could call the police and claim self defense. 

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I still don't think Connor killed Wes, but his expression did seem odd and I feel like the show is trying to make him look guilty.

Yep, but I didn't think that his expression made him look guilty. He's not close to Wes and both Connor and Michaela like myself had, had it up to you know where with Wes, Wes, and more Wes and the problems that surround him.  Doesn't mean I wanted him dead, I just wanted the focus off him because he ate up screen time and I wasn't all that interested in everything Wes, he wasn't the heart of the show for me. But when you look back at the first episode, he was so sweet, sad.  But I digress,  I kind of liked Connor's expression, it rang true to me.  It's was one of total numbness, exhaustion to the dead bodies that no doubt keep piling up around them  and all Connor is concerned about is surviving it all. He cares and is truly close to about two people or has been and that's Oliver and Michaela. I thought it was great that they didn't have him shedding tears or breathless, I wouldn't have bought it. I don't know what he was thinking in that scene and I can't say it's an expression that tells me that he is glad Wes is dead even though he threatened to kill him a week ago. Of course he threatened to do so IF Wes turned him in or said his name to the cops.  I don't think he followed Wes to the police station, nor did he go to the house because he didn't have his phone. And after Wes got the phone call from his lawyer to come down to the station, drunk Connor soon after yelled "Castillo, Vamanos!" and they took off to Michaela's.  When Anna texted Laurel, I don't even remember seeing Connor in  Asher's dorm like Laurel was. Laurel goes to Asher tells him to come on to Anna's house but Asher is too drunk to go. She never has a scene with Connor in that dorm because he's not there, I don't remember him being there. I think he had already left and still without his phone. So he had no idea that anyone would be at Anna's house much less Wes. So when they figure out who knocked Wes the hell out they better be careful if they're gonna try to pin it on Connor, cause it doesn't add up for me.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

6 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I think it would be interesting if they just tell us right away how Wes died, and it's a straightforward, reasonable, and not particularly shocking series of events (the Mahoney's had him killed then wired A's house to explode with his corpse inside), and the rest of the season turns on the character fallout, not the weekly mystery unravelling dynamic they had going on with "who's under the sheet?" Annalise will fall apart, and someone still has to get her out of jail, and there's also Oliver finding out about the murdering that's been going on, and that stuff is plenty to fill the remaining episodes, even without "who killed Wes?" being a giant mystery. It could be psychological drama rather than whodunnit. At least until next fall....

From your mouth to the writer's ears or pen for that matter. But you know they like things a little more twisty than that

[Milaxx]

32 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

So when they figure out who knocked Wes the hell out they better be careful if they're gonna try to pin it on Connor, cause it doesn't add up for me.

Connor does have a gap of time. He, Laurel and Asher all leave Michaela's apartment. Asher has stuck his phone down the sofa cushion. Asher goes to the dorms and gets drunk, Laurel is briefly seen at the dorms (or the law clinic, I'd have to double check). She then heads to Annalise's house where she gets caught in the fire. Connor goes to hook up with Thomas. There is a missing space of time between him leaving and showing up at the hospital. He doesn't have his phone so how does he know to come to the hospital to begin with?

[Keepitmoving]

28 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

Connor does have a gap of time. He, Laurel and Asher all leave Michaela's apartment. Asher has stuck his phone down the sofa cushion. Asher goes to the dorms and gets drunk, Laurel is briefly seen at the dorms (or the law clinic, I'd have to double check). She then heads to Annalise's house where she gets caught in the fire. Connor goes to hook up with Thomas. There is a missing space of time between him leaving and showing up at the hospital. He doesn't have his phone so how does he know to come to the hospital to begin with?

Well if the fire is all over the news, heck he could go to a bar and pretty much anywhere to to hear that news. He has a car, he could hear on his car radio. But like I said, he doesn't have his phone so he has no idea when he leaves Michaela's with the other two that Anna has called them over to the house. I didn't see him in the dorm with Asher and Michaela when Laurel got Anna's text.  There is no way he knew that Wes went to the police station and then went to Anna's since by the time night fell, his phone was still in Michaela's couch. When Wes got that call from his lawyer, drunk Connor was enlisting Laurel to accompany him over to Michaela's. Unless he put a tracking device on Wes's bike I don't see how he could have know Wes was leaving that station and heading over to Anna's house.  

But yeah, they are dangling Connor in our faces as a suspect for sure, but I'm not buying, they're going to have to lay it on thicker than this, it just doesn't add up for me. Yeah, I saw him roll up in there and immediately assume and ask who was dead. But again, I was like, he got his phone from Michaela's or he saw/heard it all on the news.  I guess I could assume that he was hiding out in bushes on in his car at some point in time hoping that maybe Wes would stop by the house and then he'd go in and kill him, but yeah, it just doesn't work for me. 

But you know who bugs and uses tracking devices and would be able to track Wes's every move, the Mahoney's.

It's either them or Laurel, which would have been a mistake I would like to think. There is just something about her reaction, and the actress played it so well. It just seemed like she knew and you have Meggy asking her if she knew what happened, and I'm like Meggy, I think she knows. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[secnarf]

1 hour ago, Happytobehere said:

But if you a Connor supporter see that the presentation of his reaction was designed to make him look suspicious, especially in the face of his threat to kill Wes, then why are you ascribing anything other than that presentation and its implications to others.  When presented with the possibility, people speculate about what, why and how things could have happened.  This is not an anti-Connor reaction, it is a he is clearly being presented as a possible suspect and I'm putting the pieces of all we have seen together to see where the showrunners could be going that would make him as a suspect/guilty party seem not just plausible, but reasonable.

I'm not really a "Connor supporter", nor was I saying that people were having an "anti-Connor reaction" for thinking he could be the killer. All I said was that I don't subscribe to the theory that he is a psychopath, and that there were some signals from the show that maybe something more is going on with Connor than just shock - so, I can see where people are coming from when they theorize that maybe Connor killed Wes, even though I don't personally agree with that theory. I wouldn't be surprised though if he turns out to know more than what we have been shown.

Then again, maybe on this show supporting a character is the same as not thinking they are a murdering psychopath, but that's not what I intended my statement to come across as. I'm pretty lukewarm right now about Connor, actually.

[Milaxx]

A fire at AK's doesn't mean come to the hospital. Especially since they didn't ID the body as Wes until Connor showed up at the hospital. I'm not saying Connor did, I'm just pointing out that the  story as we have seen does lend itself to suspicion on Connor. However there is also enough to suspect Frank, Bonnie or even Laurel.

[possibilities]

Didn't the news report show not only the fire but also the bodies being removed from the house? I recall seeing the headline of a male death. And Anna knew it was Wes as soon as the body was removed-- before she was in jail-- even if it wasn't announced on the news who it was. So it's entirely possible that Connor saw the news report of a death, even that it was a male, which was in the headline.

[Coxfires]

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 I kind of liked Connor's expression, it rang true to me.  It's was one of total numbness, exhaustion to the dead bodies that no doubt keep piling up around them  and all Connor is concerned about is surviving it all. 

Yeah, I saw it the exact same way, an emotional shut down rather than a display of schock and sedness. I also think the show wanted to portray the different reactions that exists when confronted to a situation like that. Not everyone grieves or emote in the same way, and I thought that Connor's absence of emotion was more an indication that Wes' death was the last straw. 

As for him being a whiner, I have seen it expressed many, many times on the boards, which always ticked me off. Yes, he went along the night of Sam's murder, but I could understand perfectly why he was resentful of Wes and the others. He was at AK's house because Wes begged him to bring him there to save Rebecca. Sam was killed to save Rebecca. Wes asked them to cover the murder to protect Rebecca. He discovered afterwards that AK had been the one orchestrating the cover up (which she did to protect Wes and none of the others initially) only to be blackmailed because of his car. AK forced him to cover up for Asher, and on, and on, and on. He isn't totally blameless at all in all this, he went along with the cover up instead of going to the police, but I can understand how he would feel like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time because of Wes and got screwed because of that.

And then, after all that clusterfuck, his gateway plan is torpedoed by his boyfriend who dumps him right after. Plus, it always felt like Laurel and Wes were in cahoots with AK to pull strings behind his (and the other K3) back. Would I be dejected and pissed at life if I was Connor? Yeah, probably. 

So, I could get behind him being the snitch. He was particularly salty and acerbic with Thomas, I could see him deciding to get back to Annalise, but not kill Wes. I wouldn't have thought him as the killer if it wasn't for these boards.

[truthaboutluv]

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Yeah, I saw it the exact same way, an emotional shut down rather than a display of schock and sedness. I also think the show wanted to portray the different reactions that exists when confronted to a situation like that. Not everyone grieves or emote in the same way, and I thought that Connor's absence of emotion was more an indication that Wes' death was the last straw. 

This. As some pointed out right after the episode, Connor didn't like Wes and made no secret of that. So some thought him shedding any tears would be hypocritical. But then his not shedding any tears got read as looking guilty. I agree that Connor just looked numb. And to me, that was consistent with how he has slowly and consistently broken down since all of this stuff started. The guy was curled in a ball under the Hapstall house crying like a baby last season. While Asher continues to be an annoying fratboy and Wes and Laurel appear seemingly calm, Connor has for awhile come across as truly tortured. Which I do think is what Oliver has picked up and made him comment on knowing that Connor has been keeping huge things from him. And that also explains the repressed pain comment. 

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As for him being a whiner, I have seen it expressed many, many times on the boards, which always ticked me off. 

Yes, exactly. 

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Yes, he went along the night of Sam's murder, but I could understand perfectly why he was resentful of Wes and the others. He was at AK's house because Wes begged him to bring him there to save Rebecca. Sam was killed to save Rebecca. Wes asked them to cover the murder to protect Rebecca. He discovered afterwards that AK had been the one orchestrating the cover up (which she did to protect Wes and none of the others initially) only to be blackmailed because of his car. AK forced him to cover up for Asher, and on, and on, and on. He isn't totally blameless at all in all this, he went along with the cover up instead of going to the police, but I can understand how he would feel like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time because of Wes and got screwed because of that.

And then, after all that clusterfuck, his gateway plan is torpedoed by his boyfriend who dumps him right after. Plus, it always felt like Laurel and Wes were in cahoots with AK to pull strings behind his (and the other K3) back. Would I be dejected and pissed at life if I was Connor? Yeah, probably. 

 

Seriously, I wish I could give this post multiple likes because this is all so spot on. And the last part is exactly why I seriously can't even stand looking at Oliver's stupid face anymore and unpopular opinion, I don't want Oliver and Connor back together. I mean I know it'll happen because the actor playing Oliver is a regular and the character is clearly being fully integrated into the show with him on the cusp of figuring out about Sam's murder. But frankly I think Oliver makes Connor's life worse right now - he breaks up with the guy, which makes him feel shit, jerks him around when he figures he can't do better and all that after screwing up the guy's escape plan from all of this madness. And I am so glad you brought up that stuff with Connor's car. Yes, when Frank, working on Annalise's orders of course, hid Connor's car and not so subtly made it clear to him that if he had any ideas of going to the police, it'd be his car that was found with all of Sam's blood in it. And it would really be his word against Wes', shady ass Rebecca, Laurel, etc. So basically he was well and proper screwed. 

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So, I could get behind him being the snitch. 

This is exactly what I have thought from the moment the episode ended. If Connor's involved in anything, I can see him being the one who called the police, especially if the person did it anonymously. Connor was already struggling with everything that happened, then the whole mess with Oliver might have been the thing that tipped him over the edge to wanting to risk it all and say screw it. 

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A fire at AK's doesn't mean come to the hospital. Especially since they didn't ID the body as Wes until Connor showed up at the hospital.

Don't people usually go to the hospital when a fire happens, especially one as massive as the one at Annalise's house, which the news reports were showing? Also, while they didn't ID the person, the news report was saying an unidentified male was killed. Annalise, far as most of the K5 knew, lived alone. So Connor could have thought it could possibly be Oliver, who works for Annalise. He could have been there picking something up, working on something, etc. I actually don't think it's strange that seeing a news report of a raging fire at Annalise's house, with someone actually dead and no phone for him to call anyone, Connor went to the hospital. 

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I don't think he followed Wes to the police station, nor did he go to the house because he didn't have his phone. And after Wes got the phone call from his lawyer to come down to the station, drunk Connor soon after yelled "Castillo, Vamanos!" and they took off to Michaela's.  When Anna texted Laurel, I don't even remember seeing Connor in  Asher's dorm like Laurel was. Laurel goes to Asher tells him to come on to Anna's house but Asher is too drunk to go. She never has a scene with Connor in that dorm because he's not there, I don't remember him being there. I think he had already left and still without his phone. So he had no idea that anyone would be at Anna's house much less Wes. So when they figure out who knocked Wes the hell out they better be careful if they're gonna try to pin it on Connor, cause it doesn't add up for me.

This. Like I said before, for the Connor theory to work, we have to assume that Connor and Wes randomly met up at some point. Because nothing else would make sense, especially with him not having his phone. The only way this sort of works is if after the encounter with Thomas, he was really upset and came to Annalise's to tell her how much he hates her some more, met Wes and a fight or something happened, he accidentally kills him, freaks out and runs away. 

Again, the problem here is Wes got the message from Annalise at like 4 in the afternoon and seemingly left to go to her house then. Connor was well accounted for with Laurel and company around that time. Then the hookup with Thomas happened and it looked like it was night time when he left. So Wes was still alive all this time, just waiting at Annalise's? That just doesn't make sense. Maybe some will say it's too predictable, but I really do think the Mahoneys having Wes killed (unless he killed himself), makes the most sense. And it would fit with this show's pattern of showing how one decision and choice, leads to another thing and another and basically bad things happen.

Frank's decision all these years ago to take the money and bug Annalise's room, led to her baby dying. Wes lost his mother because of the Mahoney trial. Annalise trying to help him by taking him off the wait-list brings all that stuff back up. Frank deciding to kill the man to get forgiveness from Annalise, involves Wes in another murder since he was talking to the guy at the time. Then Wes, for whatever reason, decides to lie and say he saw the son at the crime scene and therefore becomes the star witness in this case. And now this woman has lost her husband and her son and it's all in her mind, tied back to this kid who was curiously speaking to her husband right as he was murdered and then lies about seeing her son there. A little digging by some private investigator she hires easily confirms who Wes really is. Why wouldn't this woman, who's probably already evil herself, not want this kid dead? 

Edited November 25, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

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Correction: AK brought up Connor's car as blackmail because he screwed with a case of hers and leaked confidential client information to the DA. Basically, she told him he could stay in line or quit but she'd be dammed if she let him mess with her cases. Which seemed a very appropriate reaction to me. 

I may be mixing up my episodes and seasons or Connor did this twice because I'm fairly positive Connor messed with Annalise's case in S2 (the one with the sociopathic teenage girl who murdered her "best friend"), well after the stuff with his car, which happened in Season 1. In the episode when Frank mentions the car, that's when they discovered Sam's body and Connor was likely freaking out again. And Frank not so casually brought up his missing car that had Sam's blood in it. 

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During the Roasting Session, Michaela has recent grievances - Annalisse pimping her to Caleb , Laurel is upset with generally being treated as a puppet, and Wes was mad about Mahoney's murder and what looked like Annalisse protecting Frank. Connor was still on about the night of the Bonfire. 

So it's not whining or it's okay to do, if the grievance was recent? And Michaela choosing to have sex with someone, as Annalise rightly pointed out to her is less whiny than Connor, same as Laurel choosing to be a puppet, such as the fact that she chose to take the blame for shooting Annalise so the others wouldn't know Wes did it and be mad at him. And Wes being mad about Mahoney - the Wes who then later for no sensible reason decided to lie and say he saw Charles Mahoney that night, when they'd just worked to get him out of the case? These are not as whiny because they were recent versus Connor because it was still about the Bonfire? Except Connor's grievance isn't about a Bonfire - it's about a man ending up dead and them being part of a cover up. 

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The guy who just recently threatened actual murder to Wes if he dared going to the cops - instead of, you know - taking that as a push for him to go to the cops first and get immunity.

He threatened the person he views as creating the spiral of events that night that if he told anything he'd kill him. Because in Connor's mind, Wes largely created all this and now that they're all screwed, he's going to blab his mouth? Because at this point, they're all screwed. The time to have gone to the police was well, before they even came to Sam's but contrivance is what it is. And then when he and Michaela were all set to go, they still had a chance but now, at best some of them get reduced sentences but these people have lied, tampered with evidence, aided and abetted far to much for ANY of them to get out scot free and Connor knows that. Which brings me to this. 

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And yes, it is whining that he's always bitching about Annalisse preventing them from going to the cops when he has the power to do so 24/7. He's always had. At a point in time, he has to either take responsibility for his own complicity or move forward but he keeps going back to it. 

Yes, he had the power to do so. And when he and Michaela actually went to the police station, fully prepared to do just that, Annalise, based on Wes running to her, who Laurel had run to, showed up to tell them she would protect them. Yes, they still made the choice but neither of these people were criminals before this. They were scared and panicked and the guy's own wife, who would think would want justice for husband, says that she will do everything to cover the crime and make sure they were all safe.

Annalise was at her best momma-protector mode in that scene - soothing, kind, telling them she understood how terrified they were, etc. and yeah, they believed her and went along. And once that happened, they were in. At this point, as I said above, there is no going to the cops. These people have now had crime upon crime upon crime to cover the initial crime. They're all fucked...period. And that's why Connor's bitter and resentful because he knows it. They either stay afloat despite resentments all around for each other or they all go down.

[Coxfires]

50 minutes ago, doram said:

AK brought up Connor's car as blackmail because he screwed with a case of hers and leaked confidential client information to the DA. Basically, she told him he could stay in line or quit but she'd be dammed if she let him mess with her cases.

Whatever the reason AK blackmailed him with, she still made clear she had something in her sleeve to keep him quiet, and he has no reason to trust her when she says that he could quit, the point was to make him know that she had the power over him. Him being resentful is still just as valid.

And just because he goes along with the charade doesn't mean that he has to be all rosy and happy-go-lucky about it, this is just called being conflicted, and he has vocalized it. But what he lately was more pissed about is the secrets and behind-the-scenes stuff that AK has been doing along with Wes, and it is easy to understand why, while being stuck in deep shit, he is still left out of what is really going, because you never know what my blow up in your face with people like AK, Frank and Bonnie. what started for him as a "simple" case of bieng at the wrong place at a wrong time one night snowballed into being entangled in a mess of lies and dead bodies. Just because all of the others have brushed it off doesn't mean his own feelings towards this situation are invalid.

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This is the same guy whose reaction to Michaela freaking out / going catatonic on that night was to yell at her and shake her for not immediately joining with them to cover up the murder.

And it was also pretty clear, between his sinister rendition of Jingle bells and his frantic chopping of Sam that he was having a serious breakdown and was scared shitless and freaking out, so I could see how his view of things changed once he had some hindsight on the situation. Once more, he is conflicted about what he should have done and what he did and is stuck in a place where he has no solutions. So he feels screwed, and I can't fault him for that.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Coxfires

[Coxfires]

Well, we'll agree to disagree on this, because the way we see things are just too different, so let's  keep it at that.

[Milaxx]

I see Connor as neither a a whiner or a psychopath. I do see a gap of time between leaving Thomas & the fire. I have no idea if the writers plan to make him be the one who kills Wes. I could also imagine him being the snitch & during that gap of time he was at the police station. On the other hand I am al interested in finding out Frank was up to that day. 

As for Coliver. I like them. They've been a part of the show since episode 1. Whether that means they'll eventually get together like Merdedith & Derek or fizzle out and separate like Arizona & Callie I have no idea. 

[Keepitmoving]

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Yes, he went along the night of Sam's murder, but I could understand perfectly why he was resentful of Wes and the others. He was at AK's house because Wes begged him to bring him there to save Rebecca. Sam was killed to save Rebecca. Wes asked them to cover the murder to protect Rebecca. He discovered afterwards that AK had been the one orchestrating the cover up (which she did to protect Wes and none of the others initially) only to be blackmailed because of his car. AK forced him to cover up for Asher, and on, and on, and on. He isn't totally blameless at all in all this, he went along with the cover up instead of going to the police, but I can understand how he would feel like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time because of Wes and got screwed because of that.

And then, after all that clusterfuck, his gateway plan is torpedoed by his boyfriend who dumps him right after. Plus, it always felt like Laurel and Wes were in cahoots with AK to pull strings behind his (and the other K3) back. Would I be dejected and pissed at life if I was Connor? Yeah, probably. 

 

And quite frankly, I wouldn't trust that Anna if I were Connor nor Michaela, I'm totally in tune with those two, totally. If I were any of those two, no fucking way would I trust Anna to NOT, I repeat NOT make sure that I and I alone took the fall for it all if I were to go to the cops about Sam's murder. Cause she'd be pissed on behalf or her precious snowflake Wes. I would see how these mother fuckers worked, and she's got Frank and Bonnie and her favorites as far as I'm concerned are Wes and Laurel...That's how I would see it if I were Connor and Michaela. No way if I were Connor or Michaela would I not hesitate time and time again as to whether or not Anna and her evil sidekicks had  the power/skills to turn this shit all around on me should I decide to rat them out, please. Because they have skills, boy do they have skills.  If you want to call him whiny so be it, whine away, bitch away, I'm right there with your brother, right there with you. If I didn't see it as Anna having favorites in Wes and Laurel, I might see things differently but that's what the fuck happens when "mommies" have favorites, kids get jealous and are pitted against one another.

Hell even with Laurel and Anna's oh I'm glad you have Laurel to Wes, I'm glad he has you, WTF about Laurel? What about her? It's all poor Wes and he needs protecting and support and thank goodness it's on Laurel's shoulders. Well, what the hell does Laurel need Anna? Aren't you worried about her too?  Stop putting shit all on her. I know he was on trial, but this shit has been going on from day one, it's Wes on top and if any of the others benefit then good, but they get the scraps. Sorry, but that's the way it comes off to me and I guess it wouldn't have come off any other way as long as Wes and Anna shared that history and she moved mountains which we know to get him into the program in the first place. There was no way a viewer like me wasn't going to see it this way and be annoyed by it since Wes was never my favorite. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Keepitmoving]

You know what I realized, Michaela has Connor's phone, she took it from her mother and spoke to Oliver. I have no reason to believe she went and put that phone down in the chaos of it all.  Who's going to put down the phone and go back in her room to retrieve another phone which I would assume she had on her night stand or at least by her while her mother was hogging up her living room, in all that chaos? If you're frantic you're not going to care which phone you use, and she already had a phone in her hand.  So she takes the phone from her mother, gets off the call with Oliver and I'm going to assume that she doesn't waste time running to pick up her phone she uses the same phone to call Asher. Then you see her still holding the phone when she leaves her apt.. Doesn't mean that Connor doesn't retrace his steps when he notices he doesn't have his phone and then goes back to Michaela's apt. to retrieve it, where of course he gets an ear full from Michaela's mom who has the news on, so he shows up at the hospital assuming someone is probably dead. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[J.D.]

I wish they would lighten up (read:  eliminate) the lesbian kisses / story line.  It's not working.  Viola is an amazing actress but not the least bit convincing as bisexual.  I don't believe the romantic side of her relationship with Eve.  Friends?  Yes.  Lovers?  No.  I also don't believe the kiss between Annalise and Bonnie. And what's up with that kiss between Michaela and Laurel?????    Give it up, Pete.   It's not working.  There's no sexual chemistry.  It looks too forced.  Now Coliver, on the other hand, that totally works.  I'm amused at how many people were shocked about a week ago when Jack 'came out' as straight.  That just goes to show the quality of his acting...... he managed to fool the general public.  

Next topic:  If Wes has to be dead (I'm still holding out the hope that it was staged to buy him immunity and/or time) then at least we can eliminate any of the remaining Keating 5 as the killer unless it was some freak accident and they (read:  Laurel) didn't mean to kill him.  None of the K5 have any homicide-worthy motives to want to kill Wes.  If anything, I'd pin it on Frank or Bonnie, (more so Bonnie), but even that, to me, is a stretch.  I'm thinking the cops who tried to get him to sign that document to rat out Annalise have something to do with Wes' death.  

[Keepitmoving]

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I wish they would lighten up (read:  eliminate) the lesbian kisses / story line.  It's not working.  Viola is an amazing actress but not the least bit convincing as bisexual.  I don't believe the romantic side of her relationship with Eve.  Friends?  Yes.  Lovers?  No.  I also don't believe the kiss between Annalise and Bonnie. And what's up with that kiss between Michaela and Laurel?????    Give it up, Pete.   It's not working.  There's no sexual chemistry.  It looks too forced.  Now Coliver, on the other hand, that totally works.  I'm amused at how many people were shocked about a week ago when Jack 'came out' as straight.  That just goes to show the quality of his acting...... he managed to fool the general public.  

I don't agree that there is no chemistry between Anna and Eve, they totally had chemistry,lovers chemistry IMO. I do see Anna's character as being sexually fluid, so I buy it. Bonnie, I don't know what I buy with her and Anna, maybe because I see Bonnie as her little sister and it totally bugs me in that respect, but there goes those boundaries again. Just like I didn't like when they played any sexual undertones with Anna and Wes, just....no. You are a maternal figure, a mentor, and you were molested, do not repeat the pattern.  I think there was a bathroom scene and a scene in her bedroom when her mother visited, that I found totally inappropriate with Wes.  But I also think you might be on to something especially since they lost Eve and Anna being that Famke is doing other projects I believe that Norwalk might be  trying to represent in terms of finding a good lesbian couple.  I buy Laurel, being sexually fluid too, definitely. Laurel and Anna, I buy it. But I also buy that as of now Laurel is still hung up on Frank, that connection has gone nowhere for me, so whatever Norwalk is trying in terms of moving Laurel along, it hasn't fully worked when she spent most of this season so far uttering Frank's name.  I felt it and you know who else felt it?  Rest his soul, Wes, he knew damn well she was still hung up on Frank which is why he wanted him out of the way.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Keepitmoving