S02.E06: Outlaw Country

[scarynikki12]

Quote

The Legends are still reeling from the news that their time travel-nemesis is a speedster when they are alerted to an Aberration in the Old West.

 

[Jediknight]

Darn you Kansas CW, going black just as Jefferson and Stein are about to have a conversation at the end.  You boogers.

It was obvious everybody had a blast this episode.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

The conversation at the end was Stein telling Jefferson that he was having visions of a woman he couldn't name but that he thought he loved, and Jefferson saying that Clarissa was going to be furious, or words to that effect.

As I said in the speculation thread:

Spoiler

 I predict that when Stein told his younger self to cherish Clarissa more, they wound up creating a child, and Stein is now a father!

Edited November 18, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Sakura12]

I enjoyed this ep probably more than the first Old West one. I still love Captain Sara and how she earns respect by just being herself. 

While Amaya is miles better than Kendra. Why does it seem like they testing her with all the guys. She spends more time with Mick, Ray and Nate. When I'd rather see her and Sara work together again. I do appreciate that even she is listens to Captain Sara. 

Come on Stein, you can't figure out that the woman is your daughter. 

I kind of hope in the Crossover when Oliver starts giving orders, the Legends look at Sara for her orders. So far she's proven to be a much better team leader than he has. 

[Primal Slayer]

I wasn't really into this episode, im just tired of them traveling so far back. The Stein subplot was the most interesting since there is finally a fault of them messing with time. Though when will ramifications start being felt for Amaya/Darhk being outside of their respective time lines.

While I am glad that Vixen got to use a different animal this week, they are just so unimaginative with how they show her using the animals abilities.  

[BkWurm1]

12 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I kind of hope in the Crossover when Oliver starts giving orders, the Legends look at Sara for her orders. So far she's proven to be a much better team leader than he has. 

Sara has always been quicker IMO to come up with a plan of action than Oliver but she had that little problem back in season two where her go to solution was kill, lol.  Now she's gotten that under control so I'd love it if Oliver deferred to her.  

She's also soooo much better at this leader thing than Rip ever was, though to be fair he never claimed he was a good leader or a leader at all.  Sara was just all kinds of cool and awesome and cool (cause it deserves saying twice) without even having to try.  

Amaya offering to help Mick control his beast actually works.  I wonder if Sara sent her to look after him because if need be she'd be able to tap her powers and drag him back or if Sara figured out they had that in common.  Sara is proving to be really insightful about people.  But then she always has been about everyone but herself.  

I loved Sara winning Jonah's respect and trust and her doing it not by out macho manning him (though she could have kicked his ass without trying) but by utilizing her perception and empathy, qualities she proudly attributed to being a woman.  

I like the idea of the woman that Stein was seeing in his memory being his daughter. (Not a spoiler, just what the show sorta hinted) And that feels likely but why then no flashes of her as a child?   That part confused me.

Have Jax and Ray spent much time together?  I liked them.  I'm less positive about Ray and Nate.  I liked it at the end when their bro time was interrupted (no they were not done, ha,ha) but too often they felt like the same character echoing back and forth.  And now it was Nate's turn to be all woe is me and poor me, forced to research!  (Why Ray the scientist couldn't help I don't know, maybe he just didn't want to?)  I find Nate finding himself kind of grating but have hopes for the future once he settles into his character more.  It was a nice touch that Ray got to build the suit and give him his code name.  

I really love how the show has put these character focused summaries at the end of the show.  It hugely strengthens both the narrative and the audience's connection to the characters.  It's frequently retroactively made questionable arcs suddenly work for me like it ALMOST did with Nate and Ray bonding.  But close enough.

So it seems whatever message Barry Senior wanted kept secret isn't about the Crossover, so that minor mystery lives on.  

Over all another pretty good episode.   

[Sakura12]

3 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I like the idea of the woman that Stein was seeing in his memory being his daughter. (Not a spoiler, just what the show sorta hinted) And that feels likely but why then no flashes of her as a child?   That part confused me.

Probably to make us think that young Stein found someone else. Even though as tv watchers none of us are stupid. 

I also loved Sara using a whip. 

[HunterHunted]

I've been hoping that Rip used his emergency time jump to head back to the old west and hang with Jonah. Other than that disappointment, I really liked the episode.

Edited November 18, 2016 by HunterHunted

[tarotx]

I loved it. Maybe a little filler but still pushed the characters arcs.  I did figure we would get something about Rip this episode. I thought it would be a memory from the Calvert time. Oh well.

I loved how they used everybody again. I love Sara more and more each episode. I love the whole aura of the team this season. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by tarotx

[Lantern7]

I think that LoT has rebounded from a shaky first season to become the cream of the DC/CW crop. The other shows have bloated casts and angst by the ton. Here, the inept "Time Master" and the newbie heroine have been jettisoned, the recent acquisitions mesh well with the rest of the team, the pyromaniac is a great deadpan snarker, and Sara Lance is front and center, kicking lots of ass.

I will question Sara's tactics, teaming Nate (the guy with powers issues and a hemophiliac) with Ray and Jax (no powers without assistance for either of them). Mick getting along with Turmbull? Yeah, that's not on her. Nice to get Amaya to watch over him.

I'm thinking "daughter" with Martin. I'm hoping that's the case. Clarissa shouldn't suffer because he's a putz.

[ElleMo]

9 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I like the idea of the woman that Stein was seeing in his memory being his daughter. (Not a spoiler, just what the show sorta hinted) And that feels likely but why then no flashes of her as a child?   That part confused me.

 

 

Yeah,  I was wondering about that too.  I didn't get a good look at the woman and wondered if he was losing his memories of his wife and when Jax mentioned Clarissa, I half expected him to reply, "who."  

I guess no flashes of her as a child because that makes it too obvious, leaving open the possibility that the woman is someone else (like a different wife even).  But my money is on daughter.

Edited November 18, 2016 by ElleMo
because "two" and "too" are not the same word

[KirkB]

I'm still not feeling Nate. I don't see what real use his historical knowledge has been, besides helping Oliver find the Legends (I give him credit for that). And his power just make him a good shield. But at least he DOES serve a purpose and doesn't suck the energy out of the scenes he's in, unlike two winged people who I don't think I have to name. So I can give him a pass. He's like Riley. Or Joxer. I don't like him. I don't hate him. I just don't...care.

Jonah doesn't seem too broken up about Rip being MIA. If they were close, I guess he's over it. Actually, I'm kind of impressed by the actor. Emoting with that stuff on your face can't be easy but he makes it work.

Amaya seems to get along pretty well with everybody. I guess the animal empathy extends to humans.

Mick continues to be my second favorite character after Sara, at least since Snart is gone. Of course he would have a lot in common with the psycho land grabber but he still knows where his loyalty lies.

1 minute ago, ElleMo said:

Yeah,  I was wondering about that two.  I didn't get a good look at the woman and wondered if he was losing his memories of his wife and when Jax mentioned Clarissa, I half expected him to reply, "who."

Actually, I kind of expected the same thing. I wasn't thinking daughter at all. If you guys are right you're apparently way more perceptive that me.

[Cthulhudrew]

It just didn't feel like the Old West without some moony-eyed Hexter shipping going on. 

(Seriously, though, they could have at least had Hex be a little bit more concerned about Rip's whereabouts? "Where's Rip?" "MIA." *shrug*)

A little surprised that- apparently in the USA of DC- there is only one pass through the Rocky Mountains to the western seaboard.

I wonder if Ray is actually going to build a new Atom suit, or if he's going to use the Dwarf Star ore and combine it into a serum like he used on Steel to internalize the size-changing powers? Or both?

[BkWurm1]

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Nate (the guy with powers issues and a hemophiliac)

The serum cured his hemophilia, didn't it?  Also it seems his issues with calling his powers forth are done.  

Quote

(Seriously, though, they could have at least had Hex be a little bit more concerned about Rip's whereabouts? "Where's Rip?" "MIA." *shrug*)

I quickly got distracted by Jonah actually understanding what MIA meant when the first know use of the term didn't happen until the second World War.  (Which is still way earlier than I expected).  I'm loving an awful lot of what LoT is doing but is it really too much to ask for the Legends to not use modern slang in the past without having to explain what they mean?  Can the writers be this ignorant?  They are writers!  They should know these things!   

23 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I wonder if Ray is actually going to build a new Atom suit, or if he's going to use the Dwarf Star ore and combine it into a serum like he used on Steel to internalize the size-changing powers? Or both?

I'm also wondering if he'll have time to build it before they return to 2016.  I mean technically they are on a time ship so they should have plenty of time but yeah, when has logic ever meant anything.  

[Starfish35]

Ok, was I the only one going......"but...the Internal Revenue Service didn't exist in 1874!"

[yellowfred]

So, I was a little annoyed with Nate this episode.  What kind of historian doesn't like researching history?  Like, that's pretty much the whole job.  

[Starfish35]

Other than being distracted by the IRS issue.....actually this wasn't my favorite episode.   After thinking last week that maybe Nate was growing on me, he was back to annoying me this episode.  REALLY annoying me.  And while I applaud their commitment to mixing the characters up in different combinations, Ray and Nate are my absolute least favorite combo so far.  

Sara was her usual badass self (and I loved the whip stunt), but I didn't enjoy Hex as much as I did in his first episode.  While I liked that he came to appreciate Sara as Captain by the end, his attitude still grated (even though I know that would have been typical for that time period).

As for Mick, I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like they regressed him a lot during this episode, so as to give Amaya a "beast" to tame.  We haven't really seen this Mick since before Snart stranded him, and it's especially jarring coming after the way he's been bonding with Ray the last couple of episodes.  I didn't like it; I'm sorry. 

I agree that the woman in Stein's new memories is going to be his daughter.  Kudos to whoever called that. :)

[thuganomics85]

Hmm.... the return of Jonah Hex?  A lot of great moments of Sara being an awesome leader and just awesome in general?  Mick getting to blow stuff up and shoot fools?  And there is even a Jeff Fahey appearance!  Yep, favorite episode of the season!

Definitely enjoyed seeing everyone out in the West again (well, except Stein staying behind), and the different pairings.  Sara and Jonah was awesome, and I liked how Sara didn't let Jonah's sexist bullshit get to her, and just won him over by empathizing with his need for revenge, while still being forceful when it calls for it.  Also glad she seems to be realizing now that trying to kill Damien could end up being a bad thing.  At least with her, I feel there is a chance she will actually learn from her mistakes, unlike others (yeah, I'm looking at you, Barry!)  Once again, making Sara captain has been one of the greatest decisions this season has done.

While it does feel like they're just having Amaya get paired off with a different person each episode to make her be part of the team, I still enjoyed her scenes with Mick and their interactions.  Mick continues to be a surprisingly interesting character, which was something I never would have predicted when he first appeared on The Flash.

Ray, Jax, and Nate were an entertaining trio, who managed not to fuck up as much as I suspected they would.

Surprisingly, some of the best moments were stuff between Sara and Ray.  I loved the "Wait for it!"  "I don't want to wait for it!" exchange, her asking if Ray and Nate were done "bro-ing out", and Ray was like "Not really", and her annoyance over Ray apparently calling their alarm the "trouble alert" (I'm pretty sure she said again, so he's apparently done that quite a bit.)

Yeah, I totally think Martin's visions are actually going to be his daughter, instead of another wife.

Whelp, the team is already off again, because they got a big-ass crossover to get to!

[ottoDbusdriver]

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

While I am glad that Vixen got to use a different animal this week, they are just so unimaginative with how they show her using the animals abilities.  

They gave her the power of a rhino in this episode, and all she did was hit guys like in a normal fight.  How is that different from her being strong like a gorilla or a bear exactly ?  What was so specifically rhino-like about her actions ?

[Sakura12]

She charged them like a rhino, how else do rhinos attack? Gorilla have arms to throw and grab people, rhinos do not. 

However I'm one to say if they can't afford to show the power they should not have chosen someone with an expensive power. Although I forgive it because I watch shows for the characters not to see powers being used properly. 

[J0nas3]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

 I find Nate finding himself kind of grating but have hopes for the future once he settles into his character more.  It was a nice touch that Ray got to build the suit and give him his code name.  

Nate was getting on my last nerve with his whining this episode. It seems he had a rough childhood, but now he's on this time-traveling group of heroes, and he complains about sometimes having to research? Not to mention that even as superheroes they work as a team, I thought he got off quite a bit easy for just storming ahead into the fray as he did, especially when Jonah Hex got an earfull from Sara later for pretty much doing the same thing.

[Spaceman Spiff]

This is going to be a very UO.

I never cared for the character of Sarah Lance nor the actress who plays her when I binged watched the first two seasons of Arrow (the only seasons I watched except for the cross overs). Maybe it's because I binged watched, it was blatant that it wasn't the same actress as in the pilot episode, but I think it has more to do with her mouth and how she speaks (shallow I know). It always seems like she has wet cotton balls in her cheeks, and it bugs me. But the character and actress grew on me a bit in LoT S1, but this season is turning too much into Captain Mary Sue Sarah Lance and the Legends of Tomorrow for my taste. I miss Rip.

I also didn't care for Jax when he was introduced on Flash, but that character and actor has improved tenfold and I really like him now.

Since I didn't watch past season two of Arrow I don't have the baggage a lot of posters have about Ray. I've always liked Brandon Roth. I think he has great comedic timing and they are giving him some good material and lines for him to shine here. I hope if he does rebuild the Atom suit it's more Ant Man then poor man's Iron Man.

I'm liking Vixen a lot. Nate needs work.

[MarkHB]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Can the writers be this ignorant?  They are writers!  They should know these things!  

The IRS thing bugged me a little, but I wasn't sure of the origin of MIA so I didn't let that one bother me.  But I'm still pretty much convinced that the writer's rooms have a pact whereby the last one to the bar at 5:00 has to buy the first round.  From what I understand, TV writing isn't so much writing for passion, or writing as a craft; it's writing as a job.

I found this video on US railroad expansion; it's entirely possible that, in 1874, the original Transcontinental Railroad (the "Overland Route") was still the only railroad crossing the Rockies, so it would be a major construction effort to go around.  The thing that got me was, Nate might have stopped the train from blowing up the pass, but he still ruined a couple of miles of track; also not cheap to fix.  (And if we really want to get railroad-nerdy, it wouldn't have been welded rail bending and rippling like that, it would have been lengths of stick rail that would have been flying around like Lincoln Logs.)

[cambridgeguy]

The team already has a way to neutralize a speedster - Ray came up with some nanites to slow down RF so hopefully he remembered to whip up a few while he was working on Nate's Captain America cosplay suit.

[KirkB]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

The team already has a way to neutralize a speedster - Ray came up with some nanites to slow down RF so hopefully he remembered to whip up a few while he was working on Nate's Captain America cosplay suit.

True, but that only works if you can catch the guy to inject them first.

[Writing Wrongs]

I don't like Nate. He is annoying. Why does every show have to have someone whining about wanting to be a superhero?

[kirinan]

This is the first episode I somewhat enjoyed this season, although even six episodes in, I'm just not loving it this year. I haven't given it up yet, but I don't look forward to every episode like I did last year. I still haven't seen the Civil War zombie ep; it's sitting on my DVR, but I just don't care enough to watch it.

And I'm sure it's because I still miss Snart--enough that it's affecting my appreciation for the show. I miss Rip a lot, too. I don't miss the Hawks. However, I just can't seem to make myself care about Nate or Vixen. I agree with the poster who said they seem to be regressing Mick so Vixen can help him control himself, and I'll have to reserve my judgment on that scenario. At least Mick is still Mick for the most part, and he rarely fails to make me laugh (or go, "Aww," when we see that glimpse of humanity). It was good to see Jonah Hex again, and I enjoyed watching his change of opinion regarding Sara. Oh, and I also believe we'll discover that woman is Stein's daughter. With all his interaction with his younger self, how can the timeline not change a bit?

So I guess it's going in the right direction if I liked the episode more, but it's still got a ways to go, IMO.

[darkestboy]

Liked it but didn't love it as much as the previous trip into the West.

Sara and Jonah did work pretty well against Turnbull and I liked their scenes discussing getting revenge but it did feel like this episode could've used Rip in a way.

Does Stein have a whole new future now? It seems like they're hinting that, didn't they?

Jax, Ray and Nate worked well together as did Mick/Amaya. 

Nice set up for the big crossover at the end too, 7/10

[Sakura12]

I'm still not sold on Nate the worst historian. Then again the whining guy wanting to be a hero to be called a hero is being done on Supergirl and the Flash as well. So I've had my fill of that storyline. Other people get to you call you a hero, you don't call yourself one.

 I think the team needs both Sara and Rip, Sara's the better Captain, Rip's the better time traveler. So we can get rid of Nate and bring back Rip into the historian position. Because Nate's supposed skill set has not been at all useful. What is he bringing that Gideon can't? He doesn't even get the lingo correct or what year certain things were invented.

[Proteus]

Another solid episode.

I'm loving Captain Lance. Sara and CL make the show for me every week.

Im really enjoying Mick and Amaya.

So Steins memories are finally being altered. It'll never make sense to my why young Steins memories werent erased.

I enjoyed the trio of Jax, Nate, and Ray. But I'm still on the fence about Nate. He and Ray are just so similar.

I still miss Rip and Snart though.

[Latverian Diplomat]

I realize that half remembered alternate timeline emotions could be a tricky area, but mistaking the feelings was has for a lover and those one has for a daughter is not something I buy. (Insert gross Donald/Ivanka Trump joke here.) The word "love" is ambiguous, but Martin was emoting like she was a lover, which will be a bit of a cheat, IMHO, if they go the daughter route.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

I wish that writers would stop used the word "hung" instead of "hanged" when referring to people. Unless the actors are misspeaking and the directors don't realize/want to reshoot.  I've heard it on two different shows this week.

Edited November 20, 2016 by ItCouldBeWorse

[blackwing]

Loved this episode.  I love everything Old West, and this episode did not disappoint.  I liked seeing Jonah Hex again.  Amaya continues to be a great addition to the team.  Sarah continues to be a great captain, and I wouldn't mind if Rip never came back.  I think Nate is merely OK.  I like the idea of his character and I like his powers, but I hate the whining and above all, I hate the brotein shake douchenozzle hair.  On the whole, nobody could be worse than Kendra, so I'm willing to accept him.

It does seem to me that there are budgetary concerns with this show.  The show made up an excuse so they wouldn't have to create the Firestorm special effects, and Ray as Atom has been out of commission for quite some time now.

Regarding the IRS... I know the 16th Amendment is what formally gave Congress the power to create a nationwide system to collect taxes, and that wasn't until the early 1900s-1910s or so.  But I seem to recall that there was some semblance of a tax collection agency as early as the civil war.  I thought that there was a Commissioner of Internal Revenue back then, even if the "Internal Revenue Service" name didn't come around until later.

[Starfish35]

9 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Regarding the IRS... I know the 16th Amendment is what formally gave Congress the power to create a nationwide system to collect taxes, and that wasn't until the early 1900s-1910s or so.  But I seem to recall that there was some semblance of a tax collection agency as early as the civil war.  I thought that there was a Commissioner of Internal Revenue back then, even if the "Internal Revenue Service" name didn't come around until later.

The 16th amendment was ratified in 1913.  The name Internal Revenue Service didn't come into use until the 1950s.  There was an income tax, and a Comissioner of Internal Revenue, briefly, starting in 1862 during the Civil War, and repealed in 1872.  

[CabotCove]

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This is going to be a very UO.

Hey its always interesting to hear an uncommon perspective...?

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Nate was getting on my last nerve with his whining this episode. It seems he had a rough childhood, but now he's on this time-traveling group of heroes, and he complains about sometimes having to research? 

 

Yeah i have liked him before this, but he is now forming a pattern of being too eager to be the hero and being cocky to listen to others. He is a rookie and he should let the seasoned heroes take the lead.

Quote

I agree with the poster who said they seem to be regressing Mick so Vixen can help him control himself, and I'll have to reserve my judgment on that scenario.

I for one think they have been regressing him for a while, for cheap laughs. And no I dont always find him funny

[squidprincess]

Honestly, Nate's dislike of research (and the weird way he compares it to high school...when he's a doctorate!), combined with his behavior in previous episodes are making me seriously wonder if he is who he says he is.

Nothing about this guy seems to fit.  At this point I am honestly expecting the "physicist" who Nate mentions in Out of Time to be Eobard Thawne.

I wasn't bothered by Jonah's seeming lack of concern about Rip.  He's a taciturn guy, so the fact that he mentioned him at all was enough for this 'shipper.  

Edited November 18, 2016 by squidprincess

[CabotCove]

Quote

  At this point I am honestly expecting the "physicist" who Nate mentions in Out of Time to be Eobard Thawne.

What physicist?

[squidprincess]

In Out of Time, Nate mentions to Ollie that he first started looking into Timeline changes due to, or with the help of, a friend who is a physicist.

[CabotCove]

Quote

In Out of Time, Nate mentions to Ollie that he first started looking into Timeline changes due to, or with the help of, a friend who is a physicist.

OK thanks. Interesting theory.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, squidprincess said:

Honestly, Nate's dislike of research (and the weird way he compares it to high school...when he's a doctorate!), combined with his behavior in previous episodes are making me seriously wonder if he is who he says he is.

Nothing about this guy seems to fit.  At this point I am honestly expecting the "physicist" who Nate mentions in Out of Time to be Eobard Thawne.

Supergirl is experiencing a similar problem with award winning photojournalist and editor of a national magazine, James Olsen, feeling like he has any impact on the world. He's decided to become a vigilante.

These shows have a particular difficulty in explaining why a character who had previously been fulfilled in their career would express such disatisfaction. Nate should love research, but he should also express giddiness that he's getting to live history and now that he has super powers he can do so without getting hurt. Though the thing that he really needs to stop doing is blurting shit out and acting like the universe's ugliest American tourist. I'm starting to think most of his knowledge of the past comes from movies.

[yellowfred]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm still not sold on Nate the worst historian. Then again the whining guy wanting to be a hero to be called a hero is being done on Supergirl and the Flash as well. So I've had my fill of that storyline. Other people get to you call you a hero, you don't call yourself one.

Yeah, I feel like these shows keep coming really close to dealing with more complex notions of what makes a person heroic, but somehow they keep coming back to the idea of putting on a mask (or a suit, or a suit with a mask) and beating up bad guys. 

Also, Nate giddily deflecting bullets while the guy he was supposed to be saving was literally swinging from a noose was not the best endorsement for his heroism. 

[squidprincess]

34 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Supergirl is experiencing a similar problem with award winning photojournalist and editor of a national magazine, James Olsen, feeling like he has any impact on the world. He's decided to become a vigilante.

These shows have a particular difficulty in explaining why a character who had previously been fulfilled in their career would express such disatisfaction. Nate should love research, but he should also express giddiness that he's getting to live history and now that he has super powers he can do so without getting hurt. Though the thing that he really needs to stop doing is blurting shit out and acting like the universe's ugliest American tourist. I'm starting to think most of his knowledge of the past comes from movies.

I think the big difference for me is that for all that James may be disillusioned about his job, he's still good at it.  Every time that we see him acting as photojournalist or editor, he's good at his job.  Nate combines an really strange lack of enthusiasm for the major part of his job, and doesn't seem to be particularly good at interacting with various time periods.  Like you said, it's like most of his knowledge comes from movies.

5 minutes ago, yellowfred said:

Also, Nate giddily deflecting bullets while the guy he was supposed to be saving was literally swinging from a noose was not the best endorsement for his heroism. 

That bugged me too.  As did his really weird glee in Compromised when he realized that Amaya was in love with Rex.  I mean, yes, he did figure a major puzzle out, but showed a decided lack of empathy for the fact that the man was dead.

I remember a lot of folk criticizing Rip for being callous last year, but there's a difference between someone who's so wrapped up in their grief that they're occasionally cruel, and someone who is this cavalier at loss of life.

[Lantern7]

I think Nate wants so desperately to be Indiana Jones his grandfather, that he can't help but showing off. "While you were deflecting bullets, Sara missed the noose. Mick got Hex loose, but he had to set him on fire to do it." "Dude! I caught a bullet! WITH MY TEETH!!!!"

[TwistedandBored]

I know this episode was a filler but I liked it anyways. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

As for Mick, I think this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like they regressed him a lot during this episode, so as to give Amaya a "beast" to tame.  We haven't really seen this Mick since before Snart stranded him, and it's especially jarring coming after the way he's been bonding with Ray the last couple of episodes.  I didn't like it; I'm sorry. 

I don't exactly disagree but I'm also not certain that they are portraying him as out of control, just that he still thinks of himself as that way even though he isn't acting that way.  I almost got the impression that Mick was trying to be the beast to prove something.  He claims that the rest of the team has him on a leash, but he's the one that has willingly leashed himself.  No one is forcing him but himself.  I think what Amaya was offering was a way for him to feel more like himself while remaining in control.  She wouldn't know how very disciplined he really is already.  

9 hours ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

I realize that half remembered alternate timeline emotions could be a tricky area, but mistaking the feelings was has for a lover and those one has for a daughter is not something I buy. (Insert gross Donald/Ivanka Trump joke here.) The word "love" is ambiguous, but Martin was emoting like she was a lover, which will be a bit of a cheat, IMHO, if they go the daughter route.

All he said is he thought he loved her.   Strong emotion/affection works IMO for either a grown child or a spouse, especially a spouse that he's been with for a very long time.  Feelings of attraction aren't always going to be the top note.   

[squidprincess]

31 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

All he said is he thought he loved her.   Strong emotion/affection works IMO for either a grown child or a spouse, especially a spouse that he's been with for a very long time.  Feelings of attraction aren't always going to be the top note.   

Yeah, he didn't say he was attracted to her, or even that she was beautiful.  Just that he knew he loved her.  

It makes sense that Martin wouldn't necessarily connect that emotion to fatherhood because he's never been a father.  He has something similar to that with Jax perhaps, but that's a recent development for him.  Not the same as raising someone from childhood.

[Latverian Diplomat]

37 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

All he said is he thought he loved her.   Strong emotion/affection works IMO for either a grown child or a spouse, especially a spouse that he's been with for a very long time.  Feelings of attraction aren't always going to be the top note.   

Since he remembered her as a young woman, the "spouse he's been with as a very long time" thing doesn't really apply. That said, the word "love" in English has many meanings, but the underlying meaning to the person using the word is specific. IMHO, Garber was playing it as romantic love, though I wouldn't be surprised at all if she turns out to be his daughter. As I said, in my book, that makes it a cheap misdirect. YMMV, of course.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Latverian Diplomat

[benteen]

I liked this episode even better than the first one with Jonah Hex.  I think the show has really been on a role lately.  The missions and timelines this year have been a lot of fun.

It was great seeing Jonah return and I liked his interaction with Rex a lot.  Just about every character shines here.

I’ve always liked the actor playing Turnball from Lost and Justified.  Enjoyed him and Rory getting drunk together in the bar.

Did Jax say that the bandana smelled like ass?

I haven’t read any spoilers but I’m also positive that the woman Martin is thinking about is his daughter.  I had a feeling this would happen once he told his younger self to cherish Clarissa.

[Miss Dee]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't exactly disagree but I'm also not certain that they are portraying him as out of control, just that he still thinks of himself as that way even though he isn't acting that way.  I almost got the impression that Mick was trying to be the beast to prove something.  He claims that the rest of the team has him on a leash, but he's the one that has willingly leashed himself.  No one is forcing him but himself.  I think what Amaya was offering was a way for him to feel more like himself while remaining in control.  She wouldn't know how very disciplined he really is already.  

All he said is he thought he loved her.   Strong emotion/affection works IMO for either a grown child or a spouse, especially a spouse that he's been with for a very long time.  Feelings of attraction aren't always going to be the top note.   

I agree totally. It was onky Ladt

[Miss Dee]

God, I hate how poorly this site works on cell phones. I can't edit the post above this one for love or money.

Anyway, before it turned to shit on me, I was trying to say that it was only last episode Mick admitted he was having difficulties processing his feelings about Snart's death and Ray stepping into his place; he wants Ray to be more like Leonard and the the next moment not at all. Then the last remnant of his buddy had to be dismantled. This can't be comfortable for a guy whose main worry back in 2015 was that he wouldn't get to torch everything he wanted. Evolving as a person means being vulnerable and getting hurt, and I think he's afraid of it.

On the other hand, two episodes he became zombified - pretty much a literal monster - and he wasn't worried about too much in that state, was he?

So I think all of it happening together is reminding him how much it hurts to feel, how comfortable it was when he didn't feel anything, and he's convinced himself that he's better off being like he was before - a monster on a short leash. Much less complex that way. It's not going to work, obviously, and I suspect he'll have to come to terms with that with the help of Amaya and probably Ray as well before too long.

I thought last episode they were hinting at a ship between Amaya and Nate, but now I'm wondering if they'll be able to resist the 25th anniversary of Beauty and the Beast and enact that trope with Mick and Amaya instead.

Count me in as loving this season. It's the only show I'm trying to catch live right now.