S01.E06: The Watergate Tape

[Cranberry]

The mystery behind the greatest political scandal of the 20th century is finally solved when Flynn beats our team to the punch in Richard Nixon's Washington. While Rufus and Lucy are set on an investigative course that leaves them both rattled to the core, Wyatt's tragic past erupts, and the secrecy behind Flynn's hidden agenda begins to unravel.

[dubbel zout]

We don't need the team to solve Watergate, we already know what happened: Two teenage dogwalkers brought down Nixon. It's all here.

[smiley13]

On 11/11/2016 at 8:56 AM, dubbel zout said:

We don't need the team to solve Watergate, we already know what happened: Two teenage dogwalkers brought down Nixon. It's all here.

I thought Forrest Gump did? :)

[Haleth]

Way to make me feel old, show.  It's hard to think of Watergate as history before these characters were born.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

Way to make me feel old, show.  It's hard to think of Watergate as history before these characters were born.

No kidding.  I was a preadolescent during the Watergate era, and it's going to be weird seeing them be part of a historical event that I actually remember living through (I was around in 1962, but I was only a year old, so I don't remember JFK).

[KaveDweller]

I liked this, even if it diverged from the pattern of almost changing history. Did they imply that Watergate was only ever about trying to find the Doc in her hotel, and they broke into the offices below as a cover? And why didn't they listen to all 18 minutes of the tape? I really wish we knew about what happened to the Doc. I feel like she must be important in the modern day timeline, especially since they all seem to be agreeing about wanting to destroy Rittenhouse.

Have we seen Lucy's father before? The background music made it seem like we had and I can't remember him. 

[methodwriter85]

So there goes the theory that Finn is Lucy's father who came to the future. I don't know if I believe that Hey, It's That Guy dude is her actual father, but Finn pretty much had to have spent at least 7 years in our "present". It's still possible he could be Lucy's son who got stuck in the past.

Quote

Way to make me feel old, show.  It's hard to think of Watergate as history before these characters were born.

Some trivia- Goran Visnijic was born in September 1972, which means he would have been in utero during this episode. I really thought Finn was a little closer to 50, but per the show rules, Finn couldn't have been alive in June 1972. I wonder if he's supposed to have been born in 1976 like his wife had been. It's kind of disappointing to realize we won't see the late 1970's or the 1980's on the show, unless they REALLY want to push it and try to pretend that Finn is still in his mid-30's like the other characters are. Or it'll turn out that Finn was really born like in the 2020's and he's Lucy's son. That would actually be a great way to reveal it- an episode where they're in like 1982 or something and Finn's still there and the group is like, "Wait, shouldn't there be like a little kid version of you out here right now?)

I really liked the interaction between Lucy and the damsel in distress this week. The crack about the "Old Man" professor only being 38 (who would have been in his late 60's and early 70's by the time Lucy got there) was pretty funny.

[Lilac2000]

6 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I liked this, even if it diverged from the pattern of almost changing history. Did they imply that Watergate was only ever about trying to find the Doc in her hotel, and they broke into the offices below as a cover? And why didn't they listen to all 18 minutes of the tape? I really wish we knew about what happened to the Doc. I feel like she must be important in the modern day timeline, especially since they all seem to be agreeing about wanting to destroy Rittenhouse.

Have we seen Lucy's father before? The background music made it seem like we had and I can't remember him. 

It's the Rittenhouse guy who has been threatening Rufus.

[green]

Thanks to the spoiler thread I knew this was going to be the first episode there would be some answers to all this mystery.  That is about the only spoiler in that thread btw.  Reference to the chief writer saying he didn't believe in stringing along people all season and the Watergate episode would finally start some of the reveal.  I should say.  Awesome.

Rittenhouse is one scary organization if even Nixon was shaking in his boots and sending out his plumbers to do their bidding, heh.

And in my continuing battle with the worst "cover" look going ... honestly Wyatt, loose the scruff.  You look silly and stand out yet again.

I liked Flynn.  Always have.  Glad he finally got to tell his story though a sadly cautionary tale to all whistle blowers alas. 

And his scorched earth approach?  Not good in real life but kind of fun in a fictional TV show "where no history was hurt during this production."  Besides Wyatt tries to scorch the earth every time he arrives anywhere in his own mini way.  Two peas in a pod so put a sock in it Mr Righteous Hypocrite.

Oh yeah as someone who never believed Flynn was related to Lucy I am glad I am no longer in the minority.  (No that wasn't in the spoiler thread.   I guessed like everyone else.  The chief writer gave away no info.  Just the episode the reveal starts with).  Sorry, don't want to brag that I was right.  If it helps I was late to the table figuring out some stuff on Mr Robot.

Edited November 15, 2016 by green

[Lilac2000]

 This show...I just love it. It's like comfort food. It's fun, it's fairly exciting, it makes your brain hurt but then again not so much. It's like early days Lost. You're not quite sure what will happen but it's fun getting there. Fingers crossed it doesn't go completely off the rails like Lost and start taking itself too seriously. 

I liked that Rufus got to play a main part on the mission tonight.

[methodwriter85]

I did just realize that if Hey, It's That Guy is really Benjamin Cahill and really is Lucy's father, than that means the conversation with Doc about how she was born in the Rittenhouse thing is actually supposed to parallel the fact that Lucy was born into this, too.

[KaveDweller]

6 minutes ago, Lilac2000 said:

It's the Rittenhouse guy who has been threatening Rufus.

Thanks. I wondered that, but he looked different to me than in the scenes in the car.

[green]

10 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Thanks. I wondered that, but he looked different to me than in the scenes in the car.

He did me too.  We sure it is the same guy?

Either way, on another note, Lucy has a new half brother as well.

Edited November 15, 2016 by green

[maczero]

10 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

Some trivia- Goran Visnijic was born in September 1972, which means he would have been in utero during this episode. I really thought Finn was a little closer to 50, but per the show rules, Finn couldn't have been alive in June 1972.

 

I thought the actor was older than me.  Turns out I have a full year on him.

Quote

I really liked the interaction between Lucy and the damsel in distress this week. The crack about the "Old Man" professor only being 38 (who would have been in his late 60's and early 70's by the time Lucy got there) was pretty funny.

I got a kick out of Lucy getting the Rufus treatment (discrimination).

4 minutes ago, Lilac2000 said:

It's the Rittenhouse guy who has been threatening Rufus.

Really?  I need to get my eyes checked.  I thought they were different actors.

I have mixed feelings on not being able to go back to a time where you existed or previously visited.  I like that it eliminates the idea that time travelers can just keep going back to the same time period to fix their mistakes.  OTOH, we'll never get an 80s episode.

Anyone up for prehistoric adventures?  I know Flynn is all about trying to destroy America so there probably isn't a need to go back in time more than a few hundred years but what respectable time travel show doesn't feature dinosaurs at some point.  

[green]

I never heard they can't go back to when they existed.  They just can't go back to WHERE they existed in the past and meet themselves in person.  Thus Flynn can' t have a direct confrontation do over of the night Rittenhouse thugs killed his wife and daughter.  So they can go back to the 90's say.  Just not back to where they were living at that time.

And further proof?  Anthony is Flynn's pilot and he is old enough to have been around for Watergate and the Las Vegas 1962 episode as well.

[willco]

Seeing Nixon give his resignation speech (Aug. 8th, of '74, if memory serves) is really the first major political event I remember clearly. I remember seeing that LBJ died in '73 I think, but that's about it. Back then, my school didn't start til around the middle of August, but for some reason I remember coming into the house to watch it on tv. Some adult in my life must have told me it was important. It's strange to me that my nieces and nephews, who are in their 20's, most likely know very little about this event, or how it *was* the news for a long time.

 

I really enjoy this show, and I'm saddened that the ratings kind of stink. I think we'll see then end of the show when the original run is over. I wish a few of the people who watch the endless NCIS and Chicago franchises would have checked it out. Those shows just don't appeal to me at all, they all seem like just boring procedurals. At least Timeless is somewhat different.

[blackwing]

I thought they were different guys too.

I wanted to like this episode but I just found it so slow and plodding.  The preview last time made it seem like they were going to get caught up in the middle of the Watergate events as they were happening, like at the night of the break-in.  Instead it was all about Rittenhouse and the lady who knew the roster.

Also, this episode was missing some of the light humour.  The best chuckle I had was Rufus complaining about the colours: burnt orange and "that puke colour between green and yellow".   Rufus, it's called "avocado".  I'm sure many fondly remember their burnt orange and avocado Tupperware sets.  Not to mention an avocado coloured refrigerator.

[legaleagle53]

33 minutes ago, green said:

I never heard they can't go back to when they existed.  They just can't go back to WHERE they existed in the past and meet themselves in person.  Thus Flynn can' t have a direct confrontation do over of the night Rittenhouse thugs killed his wife and daughter.  So they can go back to the 90's say.  Just not back to where they were living at that time.

And further proof?  Anthony is Flynn's pilot and he is old enough to have been around for Watergate and the Las Vegas 1962 episode as well.

Nope.  The rules as laid out in the pilot make it clear that you can't cross your own timeline.  That means no going back to any era where you already exist and no going back to any era that you've previously visited.  Otherwise there would be nothing stopping the team from returning to, say, the night of Lincoln's assassination and trying to stop Flynn from changing that event over and over again until they got it right.

[Netfoot]

This is the guy threatening Rufus in the car:

This is the guy Lucy visits at the end of the show:

Similarity of wrinkles between eyebrows, shape of left ear, etc, would suggest they are one and the same.

[cynic]

This show is starting to hit its stride in my opinion. I love that they varied the formula a bit here and that we're getting some answers so soon. Rufus is my favorite character, so the focus on him was great. When the show first started, I worried that Rufus would be a third-wheel/sidekick/comic relief to Lucy and Wyatt (especially if they went the romantic route there), so I'm really pleased that hasn't been the case. I'm enjoying Lucy as well. Unfortunately, Wyatt still doesn't work for me at all. Two out of three ain't bad, I guess.

[green]

3 hours ago, willco said:

I really enjoy this show, and I'm saddened that the ratings kind of stink. I think we'll see then end of the show when the original run is over. I wish a few of the people who watch the endless NCIS and Chicago franchises would have checked it out. Those shows just don't appeal to me at all, they all seem like just boring procedurals. At least Timeless is somewhat different.

I thought the were doing okay in the ratings.  I remember someone posted it was doing good early on.

3 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Nope.  The rules as laid out in the pilot make it clear that you can't cross your own timeline.  That means no going back to any era where you already exist and no going back to any era that you've previously visited.  Otherwise there would be nothing stopping the team from returning to, say, the night of Lincoln's assassination and trying to stop Flynn from changing that event over and over again until they got it right.

Crossing your timeline means they can't come in contact with their other self is what I heard.  Crossing timelines is like you meet yourself physically.  Not that you can't exist in another place in another town.  Thus you can't revisit a specific event. 

Anthony is the only pilot Flynn has and even if we don't see him every episode he HAS been back in two episodes when he had already been alive most likely like I mentioned.  This one for sure and most likely Las Vegas as well.  He just hasn't crossed his personal timeline as in he didn't literally run into himself.  No way is Anthony under 42 years old (Watergate happened in 1974).

Also you can indeed run into yourself like the late pilot they mentioned in passing in the first episode when he was sent back for some do over. His story came up when they asked about going back to the Hindenberg again I believe and they were tolds they tried that once and only half of said pilot ever came back the second time.  So it isn't impossible to do even that.  Just the results aren't too great.  So just don't run into yourself and all of you should come back fine.  In theory anyway.

You got to think what the whole bit of not crossing timelines means on this show.  The whole bit about not crossing timelines seems just a plot device the writers' came up with of saying no do overs thus eliminating the first thing that pops into the head of any viewer as in why not try again.  Which wouldn't work dramatically to go all Ground Hog Day for each event until you got it right.  It isn't some arcane physics thing.  It is simply a plot device to eliminate do overs as an option.

Netfoot, thanks for the captures.  Yeah they do look alike.  So unless they are twin brothers then Cahill is evil black limo Rittenhouse guy.

Edited November 15, 2016 by green

[redpencil]

I liked this episode. I'm glad that everything is out in the open between Lucy/Rufus/Wyatt (though I wonder when they'll connect the dots on Lucy's father). I think it's pretty clear that Rittenhouse is a common enemy, but Flynn's methods still don't quite work for me (he's a bit too cavalier at times with the collateral damage). I can't imagine our trio just up and joining forces with him completely. Also interesting was Flynn's comment about parts of Lucy's diary sounding like a crazy version of her (can't remember his exact words). Makes me think there's something else going on there than Lucy completely reversing course on him.

ETA: My favorite Rufus moment was "I can barely single agent." LOL.

Edited November 15, 2016 by redpencil

[DearEvette]

3 hours ago, redpencil said:

My favorite Rufus moment was "I can barely single agent." LOL.

Yeah, I giggled at that. 

Also him calling himself "Kanye" and him telling Lucy "You won't be welcome here.  Stay outside, don't make eye contact." Nice call back to the pilot. 

I loved that this answered some questions and now we know that Flynn isn't trying to change some specific event but trying to eradicate a shadowy organization to bring back his wife.  Still wonder how all those other trips fit in, like what specific thing in Ford's Theater or the Hindenburg crash site or even Nazi Germany was he targeting that would stop them?

Also thinking we are going to see Doc again.  If she is the only person who has the entire membership roll of Rittenhouse stored in her head, then I do think it is a good bet she'll show up again somewhere. For a moment when he first stared at her Rufus froze and I thought she was his mother or something . But realized it was just because he didn't realize it was a person they were after and not an actual document.

And finally I liked how Lucy and Rufus played both the Rittenhouse goons and Flynn to disappear Doc and rescue Wyatt.

[Chaos Theory]

14 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Nope.  The rules as laid out in the pilot make it clear that you can't cross your own timeline.  That means no going back to any era where you already exist and no going back to any era that you've previously visited.  Otherwise there would be nothing stopping the team from returning to, say, the night of Lincoln's assassination and trying to stop Flynn from changing that event over and over again until they got it right.

As someone who watches  ALOT of timetravel shows "crossing your own timeline" could mean a lot of different things.  Flynn and Wyatt can't have direct influence on the events where their family members died.  The group can't go back to events they have already been to.  We can't have Alamo part 2 but they can go to the Lincoln assassination day but in another state if there was a reason to be there.   Rufus can have contact  with those soldier guys he met during that episode maybe ten years later when he meets them and he finds out they traveled north and not south.  Time travel shows have a lot of wiggle room depending on how literal a person you are.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Chaos Theory
Clarity

[sjohnson]

Well, to me it seemed like the big plot anvils had to do with the journal being written by Lucy in the future and seeming "crazy" and not having very many key details. Flynn appears to be working off the belief the journal was written by a Lucy from a timeline where they, Flynn and Lucy, worked together successfully to eliminate Rittenhouse. The journal could be a plant, a pack of lies designed to mislead him into what turned out to be what future Lucy deemed to be a necessary history. (And she's kind of squirrelly about it because Flynn's path through history is pretty bloody.) That necessary history could be the foundation of Rittenhouse by time travelers, and the show is essentially a causal loop story? (Causal loops are not paradoxes, not intrinsically, they can be self-consistent...which is not to say they are actually possible, just that we can't rule them out categorically as *Iogical* impossibilities.) Or Flynn's interpretation is correct?

[Bort]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wanted to like this episode but I just found it so slow and plodding.  The preview last time made it seem like they were going to get caught up in the middle of the Watergate events as they were happening, like at the night of the break-in.  Instead it was all about Rittenhouse and the lady who knew the roster.

Also, this episode was missing some of the light humour.  The best chuckle I had was Rufus complaining about the colours: burnt orange and "that puke colour between green and yellow".   Rufus, it's called "avocado".  I'm sure many fondly remember their burnt orange and avocado Tupperware sets.  Not to mention an avocado coloured refrigerator.

Yeah, I didn't like this episode as much as I thought I would because it wasn't as lighthearted as I expected. The lightheartedness of two teenage dog walkers foiling Nixon is kind of hard to top, though. I did enjoy the Greg Brady line and the FBI lady saying, "If you find Flynn, maybe you can blind him with that suit."

I'm surprised so many people didn't recognize Cahill and the Rittenhouse rep as the same guy. He's played by John Getz, I've seen him in so many things, I always know him instantly. He usually plays an evil weasel, he's kind of typecast that way. 

[JackONeill]

So, Flynn is working for...Flynn?  He's the big baddie? He's not working for some evil enterprise? In fact, he's directly against the only evil enterprise we have seen so far -- Rittenhouse? And his only objective is to destroy Rittenhouse in a "time past" because that will cause his wife and kid to reappear alive? Seriously, is that the sole motivation for this show? It sounds a little...weak.

So, if Wyatt is ever successful in killing Flynn, then the show is over? True, Wyatt is proving to be more and more of a failure, but at some point -- if not through skill then luck -- a stray bullet will richochet off a wall and kill Flynn. Then what?

Was this show originally intended on being one of those "special" ten-episode series the networks sometimes make?

[Primetimer]

But raises some interesting questions about where our crew is headed.

View the full article

[dubbel zout]

9 hours ago, maczero said:

I got a kick out of Lucy getting the Rufus treatment (discrimination).

Same here. I also laughed when Rufus called her his side piece. Hee.

At first I thought Doc might be Rufus's mother, but he's too young. I'm sure she'll be important somewhere down the line. The Rittenhouse connection guarantees it.

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

I did enjoy the Greg Brady line and the FBI lady saying, "If you find Flynn, maybe you can blind him with that suit."

I liked that this episode was a little more humorous than others have been. There really should be some fun in going to different times.

1 hour ago, JackONeill said:

So, if Wyatt is ever successful in killing Flynn, then the show is over?

Now that our guys have a better understanding of Flynn's motives and what's going on with Rittenhouse, I wouldn't be surprised if they all teamed up to defeat Rittenhouse. So poor Rufus would become a triple agent, and the others would be double agents of a sort. 

[vibeology]

9 hours ago, maczero said:

I got a kick out of Lucy getting the Rufus treatment (discrimination).

And being awful at dealing with it! When you tell Rufus to wait outside and blend in, he might end up in a jam because he can't control the world around him but he certainly doesn't try to sneak inside, Lucy!

I was one who figured that Lucy was Flynn's daughter so I guess I was wrong about that and based on the dates on the gravestone, she's probably not his mother either. Though, it's time travel so who knows! I will say, if they aren't related, I'd be okay with that too. Part of me likes their chemistry but the fear of incest has kept me from even thinking about shipping them and we still haven't cleared that completely.

I hated the time we wasted with Flynn and Wyatt going over Wyatt's backstory again. If there's going to be some big reveal from the journal it would be more interesting, as a viewer, to be getting new information.

I do like that our team's secrets are out there and I liked how they used the two factions against each other. That was some quick thinking.

[sjohnson]

By the way, Wyatt has taken over, so naturally it wasn't obvious. But, as Flynn's doppelganger he is now not going to kill Flynn until he's satisfied. Which is a resolution for the problem of why he keeps "failing." And both Lucy and Rufus have already hired him on permanent.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, PreviouslyTV said:

But raises some interesting questions about where our crew is headed.

View the full article

"...giant time-travelling soccer ball...." — hee!
And to Chris Huff, who wrote the recap: I too cannot write anything right now without including bitter snippets of doom and gloom as a middle finger to Drumph instead of a nazi salute.

 

7 hours ago, green said:

...Also you can indeed run into yourself like the late pilot they mentioned in passing in the first episode when he was sent back for some do over. His story came up when they asked about going back to the Hindenberg again I believe and they were tolds they tried that once and only half of said pilot ever came back the second time.  So it isn't impossible to do even that.  Just the results aren't too great.  So just don't run into yourself and all of you should come back fine.  In theory anyway.

You got to think what the whole bit of not crossing timelines means on this show.  The whole bit about not crossing timelines seems just a plot device the writers' came up with of saying no do overs thus eliminating the first thing that pops into the head of any viewer as in why not try again.  Which wouldn't work dramatically to go all Ground Hog Day for each event until you got it right.  It isn't some arcane physics thing.  It is simply a plot device to eliminate do overs as an option.

Netfoot, thanks for the captures.  Yeah they do look alike.  So unless they are twin brothers then Cahill is evil black limo Rittenhouse guy.

Since the show has made this a law of time travel physics, one would expect them to be hurriedly cobbling together additonal teams to go back and perform do overs — but show budget constraints wouldn't allow that without getting rid of the original team, so that situation would only work if this was a "limited series," with a new cast each season. 

I too didn't recognize that Lucy's father was the guy from Rittenhouse — I guess because he wasn't in twirling mustache mode, and he was a suburban dad instead of a threatening figure in the back seat of a car with tinted windows.

Edited November 15, 2016 by shapeshifter
typo

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Flynn's doppelganger

A doppelgänger is someone who is your unrelated physical twin; I don't think that's what you mean here. [Resisting urge to quote The Princess Bride] Do you mean "counterpart"?

[iMonrey]

I think the show took a step in the right direction with this episode - several, in fact. We finally got an explanation out of Flynn for what he was trying to accomplish and more information about Rittenhouse without the usual evasiveness and caginess. We got the whole story on Wyatt's wife. Everyone's secrets are out now - Wyatt and Lucy know Rufus has been secretly recording them for Rittenhouse, Rufus and Wyatt know Lucy has already talked to Flynn about Rittenhouse, they know about her journal now. (Their next priority should be trying to get the thing away from him and seeing what's in there for themselves.) They've got a plan moving forward to play double-agent against Rittenhouse. These are all positive steps.

Of course, the show still falters a bit. They probably should have skipped the bit where Wyatt managed to escape from his handcuffs because he just got his ass handed to him again. The longer his mission goes unchanged (i.e. taking down Flynn) the more incompetent he looks. And what happened to the tape that Flynn stole? If it went missing because of him they changed a pretty important piece of info - nobody will ever know about those 20 minutes that were erased. They really need to be a little more ambitious with the changes they are making to the timeline.

Quote

I thought the were doing okay in the ratings.  I remember someone posted it was doing good early on.

It's doing OK. It's not setting the world on fire but for NBC and this particular time slot it's getting decent ratings. Cancel Bear has it ranked as a toss-up for renewal, it could go either way but it's not leaning towards cancellation right now.

Edited November 15, 2016 by iMonrey

[Chaos Theory]

well there was only so long the group could chase Flynn before it got old. By  being able to change the focal point when need be the show gives itself a longer shelf life.  Flynn isn't the bad guy of the story Rittenhouse is.  Even if they take out Rittenhouse does it fix things or does even Rittenhouse play its part in securing time in its own malevolent way?  By being able to change the reason for the group bumbling around in time the show lengthens its shelf life.  

Edited November 15, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[green]

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

... I loved that this answered some questions and now we know that Flynn isn't trying to change some specific event but trying to eradicate a shadowy organization to bring back his wife.  Still wonder how all those other trips fit in, like what specific thing in Ford's Theater or the Hindenburg crash site or even Nazi Germany was he targeting that would stop them? ...

Seems to be two reasons.  One, Lucy's journal is guiding him he says.  And two, he is going all in scorched earth as in the ends justify the means so if Rittenhouse is secretly running America then bringing America down should stop Rittenhouse.

6 hours ago, JackONeill said:

So, Flynn is working for...Flynn?  He's the big baddie? He's not working for some evil enterprise? In fact, he's directly against the only evil enterprise we have seen so far -- Rittenhouse? And his only objective is to destroy Rittenhouse in a "time past" because that will cause his wife and kid to reappear alive? Seriously, is that the sole motivation for this show? It sounds a little...weak.

So, if Wyatt is ever successful in killing Flynn, then the show is over? True, Wyatt is proving to be more and more of a failure, but at some point -- if not through skill then luck -- a stray bullet will richochet off a wall and kill Flynn. Then what?

Was this show originally intended on being one of those "special" ten-episode series the networks sometimes make?

Flynn was never the big baddie.  Even as early as in the pilot when he first showed Lucy her journal he seemed to be out trying to correct something wrong.  Just, you know, the ends justify the means thing I mentioned above could make that correction pretty darn bloody using his methods.  But no it never seemed he remotely was working for any evil enterprise. 

And he isn't the only one trying to stop Rittenhouse.  Anthony is working with him and wasn't kidnapped but went willingly with him just making it look like a kidnapping.

Flynn is just like Lucy and Wyatt too.  Lucy said she was only continuing with the program solely to restore the timeline to get her sister back.  And Wyatt, just like Flynn, will do about anything to change the timeline (as opposed to the other two trying to restore it) to get his wife back. 

Though Anthony may well be helping Flynn to bring down Rittenhouse for the greater good but also out of personal guilt his invention turned into some instrument of evil.  Because remember Rittenhouse secretly funded the time travel project for some still secret reason we don't know about.  And they were making trips to the past BEFORE Flynn stole the time machine (the story about the dead pilot that returned with half a body in the first episode as why they cannot do do-overs).  Maybe the future too if Lucy's journal is from the future.

Wyatt won't try to kill Flynn now.  He has a save the dead wife motive too.  He may well be the last of the three to join with Flynn since he is a bit slow.  He'll want them to remain aloof from Flynn in said battle but even he knows now who the real enemy is making Rufus a "double agent" at the end of this episode.  (And yeah Rufus' reply that he was having a hard enough time just being a single agent was hilarious).

But honestly it was obvious since the original pilot that Flynn and the Lucy/Rufus/Wyatt triumvirate will somehow work together in an uneasy alliance vs Rittenhouse.  As soon as Flynn told Lucy in that first episode  to ask Mason about Rittenhouse and he quickly denied knowing the name we all knew who the big baddie was.  We just didn't know if it was an organization or a person then was all.

Edited November 15, 2016 by green

[Shanna Marie]

25 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

They probably should have skipped the bit where Wyatt managed to escape from his handcuffs because he just got his ass handed to him again.

I actually thought he looked moderately competent in a fight there, for a change. He'd have been okay if he hadn't been up against two much bigger guys. He was holding his own until the second guy showed up, and then he was doing okay against that guy until Flynn got back in the fight. I guess they were showing that he could get out of the handcuffs to explain how the nail was in the wastebasket to release him quickly later.

The scruff really needs to go. It looks out of place almost everywhere they go. Either commit to a beard and go for it, or shave.

Based on the conspiracy wall and the unsolved murder, what do you bet that the death of Wyatt's wife is Rittenhouse-related? We know they put Rufus on the team as their spy, and Lucy's biological father is part of the conspiracy, which probably explains her being chosen, so there's probably some reason they chose Wyatt, of all people, for the gig. If the military had removed him, you've got to wonder how long that would have lasted before Rittenhouse stepped in.

It was fun getting to see Rufus being the one with the historical knowledge, based on his personal interests and heritage, and I liked seeing that he has a family. It's nice when they throw in a person with a stable family in teams like this instead of making everyone either single or widowed.

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

Do you mean "counterpart"?

They both look like the man on top of the wedding cake, so I do mean alike...but the rule about jokes you have to explain applies. You got me.

[Camera One]

When I finished watching, I also was wondering if Lucy's dad was meant to be the Rittenhouse guy from the car.  I guess it was the lighting or something.  I hope we're not going down the path where he cozies up to Lucy, and she tells him about Rufus being a double agent.  

Finally, there was plot movement on several fronts.  I'm so glad Rufus' lie was out in the open, and it would be more fun to see them working together to try to outwit Rittenhouse.  I'm still not a fan of Flynn or the journal-from-the-future, but I like how this is set up so that the show can change it up if there's a Season 2, and the team can work with Flynn against Rittenhouse.  

[J-Man]

The phone number that they gave Rufus was totally wrong. It started with a "JK5" prefix. First of all, all-digit dialing was introduced in the '60s, an while some people and businesses did cling to their alphanumeric prefixes long past that time, it's unlikely that someone in the present day would've used one. But more importantly, ALL alphanumeric prefixes began with two letters that began an actual word. I'm pretty sure there is no word in English that starts with "JK."

Obviously they wanted to replicate the "dummy" prefix that movies and television shows use today of "555," but in the pre-all-digit dialing days, that would have been (and often WAS) represented as something like KLondike-5.

Kids (who write television shows) today.

[iMonrey]

Never mind.

Edited November 15, 2016 by iMonrey

[willco]

13 hours ago, green said:

I thought the were doing okay in the ratings.  I remember someone posted it was doing good early on.

Crossing your timeline means they can't come in contact with their other self is what I heard.  Crossing timelines is like you meet yourself physically.  Not that you can't exist in another place in another town.  Thus you can't revisit a specific event. 

Anthony is the only pilot Flynn has and even if we don't see him every episode he HAS been back in two episodes when he had already been alive most likely like I mentioned.  This one for sure and most likely Las Vegas as well.  He just hasn't crossed his personal timeline as in he didn't literally run into himself.  No way is Anthony under 42 years old (Watergate happened in 1974).

Also you can indeed run into yourself like the late pilot they mentioned in passing in the first episode when he was sent back for some do over. His story came up when they asked about going back to the Hindenberg again I believe and they were tolds they tried that once and only half of said pilot ever came back the second time.  So it isn't impossible to do even that.  Just the results aren't too great.  So just don't run into yourself and all of you should come back fine.  In theory anyway.

You got to think what the whole bit of not crossing timelines means on this show.  The whole bit about not crossing timelines seems just a plot device the writers' came up with of saying no do overs thus eliminating the first thing that pops into the head of any viewer as in why not try again.  Which wouldn't work dramatically to go all Ground Hog Day for each event until you got it right.  It isn't some arcane physics thing.  It is simply a plot device to eliminate do overs as an option.

Netfoot, thanks for the captures.  Yeah they do look alike.  So unless they are twin brothers then Cahill is evil black limo Rittenhouse guy.

It scored a 1.2 last night. I guess that isn't terrible these days, it just always seems awful to me to see shows score that low. I've been following that ratings for years now and I can't get used to these low numbers. I remember, not that long ago, networks would cancel shows under a 2.0 quite often. I should get used to the new reality. Having said that, I hope NBC thinks 1.2 is good enough for a renewal ! (Also, it doesn't drop any lower )

[shantown]

At first I wasn't sure if Evil Limo Guy and The Dad were the same person, until after Lucy left and Evil Limo Dad immediately called someone to say "Guess who just showed up at my door." How else would he know who she was?

[NorthstarATL]

Rufus looked like he fit in in this time period, but Wyatt needed either sideburns or a moustache or both and, again, to lose the scruff. Lucy looked too "catalog". Her look in the modern era as they exited the building was actually more like what women/girls dressed like back then.  I'm disappointed we haven't had any changes in the timeline in a couple of episodes. I keep waiting for a surprise twist when they return from a trip.

[Chaos Theory]

26 minutes ago, willco said:

It scored a 1.2 last night. I guess that isn't terrible these days, it just always seems awful to me to see shows score that low. I've been following that ratings for years now and I can't get used to these low numbers. I remember, not that long ago, networks would cancel shows under a 2.0 quite often. I should get used to the new reality. Having said that, I hope NBC thinks 1.2 is good enough for a renewal ! (Also, it doesn't drop any lower )

Timeless is doing better then Blacklist and Blindspot   The Cancelation Bear has it as a "toss up" but I think that it probably does fairly decently as a "later view" then as live tv.    I am enjoying it and think it has promise so I am hoping it succeeds.  

[kili]

Quote

And further proof?  Anthony is Flynn's pilot and he is old enough to have been around for Watergate and the Las Vegas 1962 episode as well.

What if Anthony is the time traveler, not Flynn? He is the one who is Lucy's child and that is why the ant-Rittenhouse group has the diary. Anthony somehow went back in time - something to do with his Mom, and lost his time machine. He then hooks up with Mason industries and designs them a new time machine while looking for allies. He recruits Flynn when he finds out that he too was burned by Rittenhouse. Anthony can freely travel to 1970 and 1960-whatever because he wasn't born yet. He can also build fancy nuclear batteries because he is from the future.

Quote

Based on the conspiracy wall and the unsolved murder, what do you bet that the death of Wyatt's wife is Rittenhouse-related?

Based on how she died, I would say that she isn't even dead. She was left on the side of the road and not found for two weeks. That means she was all oogy and science identified her. Science is just what Rittenhouse would mess around with. She, like Lucy's dad, is probably Rittenhouse.  Why she faked her death is a mystery to be solved later (was she like Doc and just escaping or did Rittenhouse need her somewhere else?). Western Union gave her that message from the past, but it didn't change things because she was never killed in the first place.

And how did Wyatt not end up on trial? He had a public fight with his wife, he left her on the side of the road and she shows up dead two weeks later - that will get you some police attention even if you are completely innocent.

I don't understand the Doc's trip to San Diego. She's in hiding and Rufus shows up saying he is there to transport her. She tells them that they are going to San Diego. Rufus then takes her to see the guy who already knew where she is and tells him to take her to San Diego. So, nobody wondered what Rufus was doing in the first place?

[legaleagle53]

7 hours ago, kili said:

Based on how she died, I would say that she isn't even dead. She was left on the side of the road and not found for two weeks. That means she was all oogy and science identified her. Science is just what Rittenhouse would mess around with. She, like Lucy's dad, is probably Rittenhouse.  Why she faked her death is a mystery to be solved later (was she like Doc and just escaping or did Rittenhouse need her somewhere else?). Western Union gave her that message from the past, but it didn't change things because she was never killed in the first place.

Western Union couldn't have given her the message because it stopped sending telegrams about five years before she was supposed to have received it.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I will state for the record, however, that I knew Wyatt's wife had been murdered because of what he said in the message that he wrote to her warning her not to walk out on him despite the fact that he had been an asshole to her.  And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Rittenhouse turned out to be behind it.  I mean, if they had no compunction about murdering not only Flynn's wife but his five-year-old daughter as well, I see no reason that they would have thought twice about murdering Wyatt's wife to suit their purposes.  As it is, Rittenhouse clearly already knows much more about Wyatt, Lucy, and Rufus than we've been led to believe -- Lucy's father obviously knew exactly who she was and why she showed up on his doorstep before she lost her nerve and ran off.

It makes me wonder what else we're going to learn about Rittenhouse and its origins.

Edited November 16, 2016 by legaleagle53

[KaveDweller]

18 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Nope.  The rules as laid out in the pilot make it clear that you can't cross your own timeline.  That means no going back to any era where you already exist and no going back to any era that you've previously visited.  Otherwise there would be nothing stopping the team from returning to, say, the night of Lincoln's assassination and trying to stop Flynn from changing that event over and over again until they got it right.

They were kind of vague about it in the pilot, but seemed to clarify this last night. In the pilot, Wyatt asked why they didn't just go back to 5 minutes before Flynn stole the time machine, and Rufus told him because you couldn't go back to "a time where you already exist, where you might meet a double of yourself." Later in the pilot Wyatt asked if they could go back to the Hindenburg and try again, and Rufus told him no, because you can't go back to a place you might meet yourself. A place you already existed and a time you already exist are not the same thing, so they kind of contradict each other, but he did reference running into your other self both time. It left it open to the idea that you could go back to a time where you existed if it was a completely different place.

But last night when Wyatt asked Flynn about going back to save his wife and kids, Flynn said you couldn't go back to a time where you already existed, without a reference to meeting yourself. So this supports that you can't go back to any year where you exist regardless of place. But since they were still talking about a place where Flynn existed, I'm sure if the show decides they want people to go back to a more recent time they can explain it away. There have been worse continuity errors.

I don't know why they have Wyatt be the one to keep asking this question. It makes him look kind of slow.

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

So, Flynn is working for...Flynn?  He's the big baddie? He's not working for some evil enterprise? In fact, he's directly against the only evil enterprise we have seen so far -- Rittenhouse? And his only objective is to destroy Rittenhouse in a "time past" because that will cause his wife and kid to reappear alive? Seriously, is that the sole motivation for this show? It sounds a little...weak.

It's also a bit flawed. I get that he is grief-stricken, but he lives in the US, right? If  that's where he met his wife? Because if he destroys the country in order to destroy Rittenhouse, his wife will probably not know him and his kid will probably not exist.

[LoneHaranguer]

31 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

So this supports that you can't go back to any year where you exist regardless of place. But since they were still talking about a place where Flynn existed, I'm sure if the show decides they want people to go back to a more recent time they can explain it away. There have been worse continuity errors.

It could just be that the characters don't really know, and it's all conjecture based on the one time they mentioned in the pilot. If they knew the rules for sure, they wouldn't have found out the hard way what happens if you break them.

[ratgirlagogo]

Quote

the Black Liberation Army, a fictionalized version of the Black Panthers.

No, a real organization that developed largely out of the Black Panthers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Liberation_Army

which the writers lazily and annoyingly fictionalized in this show.  Which I love because I don't take it seriously.  But still.

Edited November 16, 2016 by ratgirlagogo