S01.E07: The Best Washing Machine in the World

[kili]

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Or even really tell him that he's wrong about anything. I thought her telling him about Randall's situation in the bedroom scene was her way of trying to ease the tension and try and get him more sympathetic to Randall.That may have been her first attempt to get them to try and talk things out and reach some sort of compromise in that situation.

Why is her first instinct to make Kevin sympathetic of Randall's plight? Why not make Randall sympathetic of Kevin's plight? Does she really think it is reasonable to keep a child awake at 2 am on a school night?  Her  compromise is essentially: "Suck it up buttercup. You need to think more about your brother. Your sleep is not important."

Why wasn't her response to say "Kevin, you are right. 2 am is an unreasonable time to have a light on in a bedroom. Randall,  you need to understand your brother has an important game tomorrow [even random strangers on the bleachers know that] and he needs his sleep. I know you have a lot of work and not much time to do it. How about we move you to another room? "

That's finding a compromise. Guilt tripping a child because they expect to be able to sleep at 2 am on a school night is not a compromise. "But Kevin, Randall has a lot of homework and with him being on the football team, he has less time to do it,"

Kevin is the first to offer an actual compromise. He offers to move into the basement so that Randall can do his homework with the lights on all night and Kevin can get some sleep. He is then guilt tripped for that too.

Edited November 17, 2016 by kili

[LydiaMoon1]

Regarding the usage of "I" and "me", just use "I" at the beginning of a sentence and "me" at the end, e.g., "Kevin and I went to dinner" and "You ate with Randall and me".  Same for "we" vs. "us".  Much less stressful and you'll be right much more often than wrong.

As for Kevin and Randall’s relationship, both have legitimate grievances.  I’m just glad they’re finally addressing them.  I hope their reconciliation becomes the focus of Kevin’s adult storyline.  Kevin, Randall, and Randall’s family? Riveting.  Kevin, that actress, and his Broadway show? Not so much.

My one big complaint is Kate’s storyline.  Note to Hollywood: Fat people do occasionally think about something other than food.  We have families, and careers, and social lives, and problems that have absolutely nothing to do with food.  Geez!  They way they’re portraying Kate is ridiculous.

Edited November 17, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[jalady]

The title of this episode was awesome!  Because it shows that even though you may finally have "the best washing machine in the world ", your life may have been so much happier when you were dealing with a crappy washing machine, LOL.  Look at how happy they were in the early scenes, even with all the machine malfunctions.  They worked through it as a couple, or as a family, when the kids were older.

Cut to the "best washing machine" scene.  Randall and Kevin are estranged (different bedrooms) and so are Rebecca and Jack.  No goodbye kiss, no dinner.  The classic "be careful what you wish for . . ."

[Jx223]

48 minutes ago, kili said:

Why is her first instinct to make Kevin sympathetic of Randall's plight? Why not make Randall sympathetic of Kevin's plight? Does she really think it is reasonable to keep a child awake at 2 am on a school night?  Her  compromise is essentially: "Suck it up buttercup. You need to think more about your brother. Your sleep is not important."

Why wasn't her response to say "Kevin, you are right. 2 am is an unreasonable time to have a light on in a bedroom. Randall,  you need to understand your brother has an important game tomorrow [even random strangers on the bleachers know that] and he needs his sleep. I know you have a lot of work and not much time to do it. How about we move you to another room? "

That's finding a compromise. Guilt tripping a child because they expect to be able to sleep at 2 am on a school night is not a compromise.

Kevin is the first to offer an actual compromise. He offers to move into the basement so that Randall can do his homework with the lights on all night and Kevin can get some sleep. He is then guilt tripped for that too.

Maybe she was so tired of them fighting she just said the first thing that came to her mind. And that was it. And maybe one reason she tends to lean in Randall's favor is because young Kevin was so antagonistic and abrasive. The type of attitude he exhibited as a kid can wear on a person (including a parent) and maybe that also helps explain why Rebecca leaned more towards Randall. (Regardless of whether she actually realized that or not)

I believe that Randall was the first to offer a compromise when he suggested he go into the kitchen. His suggestion was a way for them both to get what they needed and keep them together. I believe that his suggestion was motivated by him not wanting his relationship with his brother fracture even more than what it already has. Kevin was cranky about not getting sleep (understandably so) and just wanted to get away from Randall (In addition to continue to stir in his jealously of Rebecca and Randall's relationship.)  I don't think he was motivated by doing something that would make everybody happy. I think that he knew that Randall and Rebecca wouldn't be happy about him going to the basement. But he wanted space away from Randall and  ended up getting what he wanted on that front.

Randall at least seemed sorry about what happened and ended up wanting things to make things better for everyone. I think that Kevin seemed mostly concerned about himself in that whole scene. Though I do understand why Kevin was upset and I will give him some credit for apologizing at the beginning of that argument.

(He seemed sincere in that moment and I would like to see more of that side of him when the kids are younger. I hope we get moments where the brothers are actually getting along when they are little and as teens)

I am looking forward to next week's family scenes at Thanksgiving. I want to see what type of state adult Kevin's relationship with Rebecca is in.  Even if it's strained (which I suspect it is). I still want to see hugs exchanged and them talking to each other. I hope that they do show that they love each other in spite of the issues that they have with each other.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[Tiger]

Im going to be extremely disapointed if we dont see Beth privately confronting Rebecca about her deal with William prior to it being revealed to Randall next week.

I think Rebecca did the right thing and Randall has no right to be angry at her for what she did, but I do need to see her verbalize her thoughts and motivations to Beth on why she kept meeting William a secret.  

I also need the show to acknowlege whether she ever told Jack before he died.  

[kili]

Quote

Maybe she was so tired of them fighting she just said the first thing that came to her mind. And that was it. And maybe one reason she tends to lean in Randall's favor is because young Kevin was so antagonistic and abrasive. The type of attitude he exhibited as a kid can wear on a person (including a parent) and maybe that also helps explain why Rebecca leaned more towards Randall. (Regardless of whether she actually realized that or not)

But years of being treated as the outsider by Rebecca has likely led to Kevin being antagonistic and abrasive. Even Randall admits that Rebecca favoured him. Seven years before this, Kevin angrily confronted his parents about how he nearly drowned because they were so focused on the other two children and we are shown nothing has changed. Kevin didn't become antagonistic and abrasive in a vacuum.

Rebecca isn't doing this on purpose. She just doesn't see herself doing it. We are all the heroes of our own stories.

Once Rebecca woke up in the morning and had time to think about it, she should also have told Randall that he figures out how to get homework done before bedtime or he is off the football team. While kids want to do everything, it is up to parents to set reasonable limits. If Randall has to stay up until 2 am to get his homework done and be on the football team, something has to change. That is not sustainable.

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, Tiger said:

Im going to be extremely disapointed if we dont see Beth privately confronting Rebecca about her deal with William prior to it being revealed to Randall next week.

I think Rebecca did the right thing and Randall has no right to be angry at her for what she did, but I do need to see her verbalize her thoughts and motivations to Beth on why she kept meeting William a secret.  

I also need the show to acknowlege whether she ever told Jack before he died.  

I don't want Rebecca's and Randall's relationship shattered, and I don't think she did what she did out of spite. However, I do believe that when Randall was old enough (before adulthood) that she should have "mothered up" and told him what she did and why and been supportive in his choice to be in contact with William if he wanted to be, even if her caveat was that she would tell him his name after he (Randall) was an adult.

I honestly doubt that Jack knew. For some reason, I think he would have taken a different stance than Rebecca did.

[SlackerInc]

I'm surprised almost everyone talking about the 2 a.m. conflict is arguing that Rebecca should have told Randall to go work on his homework in the living room or kitchen or wherever.  How about telling him to go to bed?  Teenagers need more sleep than any other age group except infants, and 2 a.m. is way too late to be up given how early school starts!  And I want to emphasize that (1) I am a night owl who is almost always still up at 2 a.m. and (2) I am not an especially strict parent.  But that is just non-negotiable: my kids need their sleep, so they are going to be in bed with the lights out at that time (if they can't sleep, they can stare into the darkness).

Either Randall erred by not working on his homework earlier, or the school is assigning way more than he can possibly finish in a reasonable amount of time.  In neither case should he be allowed to do it at 2 a.m. or anywhere close to that time.

[GodsBeloved]

1 hour ago, Tiger said:

Im going to be extremely disapointed if we dont see Beth privately confronting Rebecca about her deal with William prior to it being revealed to Randall next week.

I'm not sure I want to see that because I don't think it's Beth's place to confront Rebecca.

Edited November 17, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Neurochick]

23 hours ago, BananaRama said:

My heart broke when teenage Randall brought cookies and milk to teenage Kevin in the basement and Kevin tossed him an attitude.  I do hope that their fight tonight mends their relationship tremendously and that they are better friends and brothers now. My heart can't take watching them hurt each other.  Also Kevin's "In any other family - I would be the star" line was so selfish - never mind that he was directing it towards Randall - what about Kate! Poor Kate had to deal with two super stars in her family.  I wonder if that contributed to her weight gain?

I agree with this.  Kevin just comes across as spoiled, entitled and douche-y.  He needs to take several seats.  He's a young, healthy white male; end of story.

I don't get Beth.  Now she's going to call Rebecca about what William told her?  What is the point in all that?  Sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.  William was a junkie, he wasn't capable of taking care of a child, that's why he left him in the fire house, somewhere safe (I don't know if fire houses were considered "safe havens" back then).  I mean William could have easily sold the baby for drugs so I don't get Beth at all.

And that dessert Toby was eating looked gooey and nasty, I would have to leave the restaurant if someone started eating shit like that in front of me. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Neurochick

[Biggie B]

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I don't get Beth.  Now she's going to call Rebecca about what William told her?  What is the point in all that?  Sometimes it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.  William was a junkie, he wasn't capable of taking care of a child, that's why he left him in the fire house, somewhere safe

I don't think Beth is at all concerned that William left baby Randall at the fire house; rather, she is upset that Rebecca made contact with William and maintained that contact for a period of time, and no one knew about that contact (so far as we know at this point). I think everyone would agree that William couldn't have kept a newborn and made what turned out to possibly a life-saving decision. Beth's shock and anger is that Randall's adoptive mom knew and was in contact with Randall's bio dad. That is indeed very intense for Rebecca to have done - and to have seemingly kept it a secret for 36 years.

As for whether it's appropriate for Beth to confront Rebecca...how is Beth supposed to sit on that bombshell? How could she ever look her husband in the face, knowing what she now knows? If it were me, I'd feel like was lying to my husband. I'd hate to be the unwilling recipient of such loaded and incendiary information - and I'd likely be furious at Rebecca for having kept such critical information from my beloved husband. I myself would very, very likely say something to Rebecca. Imagine Randall learning that he (Randall) could've had access to William and had some sort of relationship, and that that was kept from him...I could not in good conscience keep that information from my husband, even if I only learned of it by complete and total accident. It is like having a burning piece of metal dropped into your bare hands - you can't just shove it in your pocket as if it never happened. Even knowing the shitstorm that's going to ensue, I'd definitely be confronting Rebecca - I would NOT be able to fake it in front of my husband - wouldn't be able to look him in the eye.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Biggie B

[Neurochick]

6 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

As for whether it's appropriate for Beth to confront Rebecca...how is Beth supposed to sit on that bombshell? How could she ever look her husband in the face, knowing what she now knows?

I am confused.  I thought, at least according to the show, Rebecca and William saw each other that one time, when William gave her the book.  What relationship did the two of them have? 

 

7 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

I think everyone would agree that William couldn't have kept a newborn and made what turned out to possibly a life-saving decision. Beth's shock and anger is that Randall's adoptive mom knew and was in contact with Randall's bio dad. That is indeed very intense for Rebecca to have done - and to have seemingly kept it a secret for 36 years.

Yes, and the bio-dad was using drugs and unable to take care of a child.  What should have Rebecca said?  "Your father is an addict?"

[GodsBeloved]

12 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

As for whether it's appropriate for Beth to confront Rebecca...how is Beth supposed to sit on that bombshell? How could she ever look her husband in the face, knowing what she now knows? If it were me, I'd feel like was lying to my husband. I'd hate to be the unwilling recipient of such loaded and incendiary information - and I'd likely be furious at Rebecca for having kept such critical information from my beloved husband. I myself would very, very likely say something to Rebecca. Imagine Randall learning that he (Randall) could've had access to William and had some sort of relationship, and that that was kept from him...I could not in good conscience keep that information from my husband, even if I only learned of it by complete and total accident. It is like having a burning piece of metal dropped into your bare hands - you can't just shove it in your pocket as if it never happened. Even knowing the shitstorm that's going to ensue, I'd definitely be confronting Rebecca - I would NOT be able to fake it in front of my husband - wouldn't be able to look him in the eye.

I'm not necessarily opposed to Beth giving Randall the truth, though I would prefer if she put more effort in convincing William to tell him. If that fails then sure tell Randall. This is an issue between Randall, his mom and bio father not Beth.  It's for Randall to confront his mother not Beth.

Edited November 17, 2016 by GodsBeloved

[Jx223]

I actually wouldn't be surprised if the truth about William and Rebecca came out at the dinner table during Thanksgiving. I could this scenario happening: Beth is struggling with keeping the secret,maybe trying to get Rebecca alone to confront her but being unsuccessful at doing that. Everybody then gathers at the table and starts to talk.

Rebecca/William are chatting as if they hadn't met each other when Randall was a baby and Beth gets upset about them acting "fake". I could seeing Beth exposing the truth or forcing them to expose the truth by saying she's had enough and they need to be honest with Randall. 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jx223

[Biggie B]

Totally agree that Rebecca and/or William will have to explain everything to Randall - but Beth is in a very awkward position, now knowing this information. I would hate Randall to lash out at her, thinking she was somehow complicit in keeping it from him through the years.

I may well be mistaken that Rebecca and William had sustained contact, so if someone can confirm that they only met that one time, that would be helpful! I had the impression they had kept in touch through the years, but could be totally wrong about that!

Edited November 17, 2016 by Biggie B

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm pretty sure Rebecca and William met the one time. She was pretty straight forward in that she didn't want William to come back for Randall "I need to know he's mine" and then he asked if maybe he could see him sometimes and Rebecca said no. 

[luna1122]

I'm not 100% certain this secret even needs to come out. Obviously it's going to, but I'd just as soon it not be an issue. Rebecca was doing her best, as far as this particular situation was concerned, or at least, doing what she thought best. She had good reasons to believe it, even if it perhaps ultimately WASN'T the best thing. What purpose is served for it to come out now? Who does it benefit?

I'd hate to be in Beth's position, knowing such a rather large secret about her husband's mother, but I'm not altogether clear if I'd do anything with the information. It's perhaps best left alone. Or not, I don't know.

 

ETA: I do believe I read somewhere that Rebecca and William's paths may have crossed more than once, but that might have been just speculation.

Edited November 17, 2016 by luna1122

[Biggie B]

Quote

I'm pretty sure Rebecca and William met the one time. She was pretty straight forward in that she didn't want William to come back for Randall "I need to know he's mine" and then he asked if maybe he could see him sometimes and Rebecca said no. 

Ok, thank you! That does dilute my earlier posts - somehow I fanwanked that Rebecca and William had kept in touch sporadically through the years.

Well, the truth will come out, regardless - it could indeed be a very memorable Thanksgiving!

[GodsBeloved]

I wonder if Rebecca had added fear in that it could be possible for William to come back and have a good chance of getting Randall because he was adopted by a white family, sort of a Losing Isaiah situation.

[LydiaMoon1]

34 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

I'd hate to be in Beth's position, knowing such a rather large secret about her husband's mother, but I'm not altogether clear if I'd do anything with the information. It's perhaps best left alone. Or not, I don't know.

If I were Beth, I would tell Randall.  It wasn't long ago that Rebecca warned William to continue keeping their secret, but the truth is out already.  He didn't mean for it to happen, but the truth has a way of coming out.  If Beth tries to keep the secret, the same thing will happen to her.  Even if William dies soon, I guarantee someone at his funeral will know and spill the beans.  That's how it works.  Go ahead and tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.

Edited November 17, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[memememe76]

I think a key scene in the episode with respect to how Rebecca treats Kevin and Randall is Rebecca in the stands. She is wearing beige, to appear as neutral as possible. When her mind is specifically on "sides", she knows where she should be. It also should be pointed out that Rebecca was aware that scouts were going to be present and that is why she encouraged/forced Jack to attend. She is looking out for Kevin too, although Kevin wouldn't know anything about any of this.  

[DearEvette]

I can't help it, I separate Rebecca's unwitting (I am sure it is unwitting) favoritism with how the brothers interact with each other.  And while I can sympathize with Kevin because of his feelings of not getting enough attention from his parents, i can't when it comes to how he treats his brother as compensation. 

In just the last episode we saw young Randall purposely janking his own school grades so he won't get a "good grades"  ice cream at the expense of his siblings.  He doesn't want them ( and by them we know he means Kevin) to hate him so he sabotages himself. 

I also can't get too mad at the adult Randall for now finally harboring his own resentment of that treatment.  How often did he extend the olive branch only to have it broken (e.g Randall comes down to the basement with milk & cookies and Kevin tells him he "came down there to get away from you" and "get a life.").  At some point you give up and stop trying to because years of that rejection in childhood just doesn't disappear just because now Kevin wants to finally forge a relationship.

Even though I am firmly team Randall in this instance, I do feel bad for Kevin's feelings about his mom (even though I still think he was a total jerk to Randall) and I really want the brothers to work out their issues and hopefully, finally become real brothers.

ETA: I actually thought that dessert Toby was eating at the restaurant looked kinda gross.

Edited November 17, 2016 by DearEvette

[kili]

Quote

 When her mind is specifically on "sides", she knows where she should be. It also should be pointed out that Rebecca was aware that scouts were going to be present and that is why she encouraged/forced Jack to attend. She is looking out for Kevin too, although Kevin wouldn't know anything about any of this.

Agreed. She is trying to be impartial when she thinks about it.

But, her beigeness was probably another hit to Kevin. Kevin is already feeling that his Mom is against him and for Randall. That Randall is imposing on the one thing, football, that he excels at (when Randall already has a lot of things he excels at). It sounds like traditionally the parents would have worn Kevin's colours. But on his biggest night, his Mom comes dressed in beige and his father is (accidently) wearing Randall's colours (blue). Only Kate is wearing Kevin's colours because she goes to the same school as him (the equivalent of him paying her to attend his tapings).

So, his big night to get a scholarship and his parents are not their to fully support him and his brother is doing more than just sacking him - he is sacking him with extreme prejudice (there was some pent up anger behind those hits - those angry eyes were not just competitive).

At the same time, Randall needs support from his parents too. So, it was a no win situation.

If there wasn't all that history behind it, it wouldn't have been a big deal. If the scout hadn't have been there, it wouldn't have been a big deal. If Kevin hadn't just felt his only option was moving out of his bedroom, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. If it hadn't been the one thing that Kevin exceled at, it wouldn't have bee a big deal. But, all of that was not true and it was a big deal. And now he's probably off the team for fighting. I'm not surprised he wasn't all that thrilled about a joke about his new room with a pop-tart chaser.

[ShadowFacts]

I don't know if it has been speculated only, or that we were given something more concrete, but William said to Rebecca "you're looking well", which could mean since the one time I saw you 36 years ago, or since I last saw you x years ago. 

5 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I can't help it, I separate Rebecca's unwitting (I am sure it is unwitting) favoritism with how the brothers interact with each other.  And while I can sympathize with Kevin because of his feelings of not getting enough attention from his parents, i can't when it comes to how he treats his brother as compensation.

Yeah, for me it is a fairness issue.  Randall has a ton to deal with being a black kid in a white family and community and he is the kid in the situation, Rebecca and Jack the adults, and Kevin's displaced anger has apparently hurt him a lot over the years, but it hurt Randall, too.  Kevin didn't get the support he needed, from his parents.  The fact that Randall did get more attention and support, is not his fault.  He wasn't in charge of that. 

[HeyThere83]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I also can't get too mad at the adult Randall for now finally harboring his own resentment of that treatment.  How often did he extend the olive branch only to have it broken (e.g Randall comes down to the basement with milk & cookies and Kevin tells him he "came down there to get away from you" and "get a life.").  At some point you give up and stop trying to because years of that rejection in childhood just doesn't disappear just because now Kevin wants to finally forge a relationship.

ETA: I actually thought that dessert Toby was eating at the restaurant looked kinda gross.

I agree. Just because Kevin has decided now that HE is ready does not mean Randall is. He only just now is reaching out regarding this and it just so happens to be when he quit his job and is feeling sorry for himself, alone, and mistreated by the big bad TV executives. So it is on his terms and seemingly self-serving. At the restaurant he got upset because Randall didn't watch his show. I'm honestly not sure what he expected there. He invited himself into Randall's home and got upset when Randall wasn't jumping at the chance to spend time with him just because Kevin had an idea of how things would go when he got there. Mistreating someone for so long and then expecting them to react a certain way because you think they should isn't cool and defeats the purpose of what he set out to do. Which leads me to believe further that reaching out has more to do with making himself feel better than anything. So personally most things involving this character aren't working for me. The lines about being the star of his family and being "replaced by another black person" I found especially off-putting. I didn't think the episode should have ended with them sitting together as though all was just A-ok after that. Didn't ring true.

Also agree about the Toby dessert. Gross!!

[HeyThere83]

10 hours ago, topanga said:

It sounded like he knew there was a new manny but didn't know it was Morris Chestnut. Yes, I rewatched the scene, and he did say, "That's the new Manny?"  I don't think Kevin is racist, but as he said, "Once again, I'm being replaced by a black man." Which is reminiscent of his childhood. 

Awful line and sounds like he is implying that a black man should never be above him or that a black man could never compare to his greatness. Or....that black men just keep on ruining his life? Stealing his thunder? Weird.

[Randomosity]

Just caught up on the episode. And I didn't read the thread yet, so apologies if I'm just restating every one else's posts...
 

I think teen Kate was great casting, facially. Far better than 8 year-old Kate. She seemed too short though. (And too skinny for what we've seen for the rest of her life stages, but I suppose she could have been down to that size for a while.)

Also, she has my sympathies for having to be squished in the middle seat of a car between two disgustingly sweaty teen boy football players still in their nasty equipment.

Beth and William's scene with the 'adult' brownies was very amusing :)

As was Kevin and Randall getting interrupted by Seth Myers and Randall's ensuing deadpan to Seth, followed by them sprinting off.

It may well be nothing, but Jack's scene with the secretary/assistant/whoever lady fixing his shirt and making a wife comment, followed by Rebecca reuniting with music dude made me wonder if they're moving towards marital difficulties, maybe even affairs, on one or both their parts.

I liked Rebecca's dress in the laundromat. Although the washing machine motif was... odd?

Kate and Toby so do not appear to have anything resembling a healthy relationship if it's so weight/diet-dependent. Just so not a good relationship.
 

I'm super intrigued to see how this revelation of William's plays out.

 

 

[Randomosity]

On 11/16/2016 at 9:15 AM, llewis823 said:

I so agree and it sounds like everyone else does too. (Same for the kid versions of the Big Three too). I always love it when a movie or tv show really tries hard to cast believable younger versions of people. And for that matter, when they try to cast relatives to look like they could really be related.

Once Upon a Time is particularly good at this as well. It really does help make things more realistic.

On 11/16/2016 at 0:57 PM, ClareWalks said:

On top of her other relatives being athletic, which is indicative that genetics weren't an issue,

Genetics doesn't work that way. Not everything is so cut and dry. That's like saying that a blonde kid can't be blonde because of genetics and must be dying their hair if the rest of the family has brown hair. Even the most basic Punnett square tells you that, and in reality, gene expression is far more complicated and nuanced than those.

On 11/16/2016 at 5:02 PM, Clanstarling said:

I just want to point out one difference between alcohol addiction and food addiction. You never HAVE to drink alcohol again. But you do have to eat, you will always be around food. It is an unending struggle.

This times a million. So many times I've wished that a magic nutrition pill existed so that I could just go cold turkey and not have to ever eat any food. I think it might well be easier than the moderation required for staying alive/maintaining a healthy weight.

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Also wanted to add I think it was interesting to see Rececca getting a late night snack.  One, two bites and she is good.  That would not be me.  Thin people use food as comfort too but they seem to be able to stop at a reasonable amount.  I am quite sure young Kate noticed this. 

I was actually thinking that we might see teen Kate come down for a secret midnight snack/binge, not expecting Rebecca to be in the kitchen.

[Enigma X]

34 minutes ago, Randomosity said:

Genetics doesn't work that way. Not everything is so cut and dry. That's like saying that a blonde kid can't be blonde because of genetics and must be dying their hair if the rest of the family has brown hair. Even the most basic Punnett square tells you that, and in reality, gene expression is far more complicated and nuanced than those.

Exactly!

[Rae Spellman]

7 hours ago, kili said:

Once Rebecca woke up in the morning and had time to think about it, she should also have told Randall that he figures out how to get homework done before bedtime or he is off the football team. While kids want to do everything, it is up to parents to set reasonable limits. If Randall has to stay up until 2 am to get his homework done and be on the football team, something has to change. That is not sustainable.

Quote

 

I'm surprised almost everyone talking about the 2 a.m. conflict is arguing that Rebecca should have told Randall to go work on his homework in the living room or kitchen or wherever.  How about telling him to go to bed?  Teenagers need more sleep than any other age group except infants, and 2 a.m. is way too late to be up given how early school starts!  

Either Randall erred by not working on his homework earlier, or the school is assigning way more than he can possibly finish in a reasonable amount of time.  In neither case should he be allowed to do it at 2 a.m. or anywhere close to that time.

 

Yes. Teenagers need lots of sleep. If Randall has to stay up past 2am, it's unlikely that he's getting enough sleep. And, too much of something is happening. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by RaeSpellman

[miracole]

Quote

Randall at least seemed sorry about what happened and ended up wanting things to make things better for everyone. I think that Kevin seemed mostly concerned about himself in that whole scene

As for Randall and the light, Kevin has been shown to often be inconsiderate.  I’m sure there were many a time that he kept Randall up late while he was doing something he wanted to do in their room. Randall probably just let it go. But Kevin the drama king is probably griping over one of the few times Randall has done this. 

I didn't infer from the light scene and one other that Rebecca is horrible, never showed Kevin any love or attention and  always took Randall's side.  She just seemed like a mom who was tired of her kids arguing. Also Rebecca no doubt went to all of Kevin’s games. Games that until recently were all about him and not Randall.  And seriously, he got away with calling his brother Webster with no more than a small reprimand.

Kevin just seemed so set on being antagonistic towards his brother. I actually think it's kind of sad that Rebecca had to keep pointing out to Kevin when Randall was being considerate. It's not like she was trying to show Kevin up it was like she was trying to sell Kevin on his brother, like Randall was a pair of shoes. "See Kevin, see how nice and comfy Randall is and how easy he is to walk in? Come on try him out. I bet you'll really like him!"

It's too bad so many years were wasted but it's good that it seems like they're going to begin to try to work on their relationship.

Beth is awesome, and Kate's storyline is annoying.

Edited November 18, 2016 by miracole

[Lady Calypso]

Let me just say that I super appreciate the differing opinions with characters. It may be frustrating at times when others don't share your opinion, but it makes the world super, super interesting. So thanks for all the other insights on Kevin and Randall. I love both characters a lot and sympathize with both characters as well, so I'm kind of split between the two. Both are not innocent in their rivalry for me. Randall more so now in his adult years. Both have their share of issues that have affected their relationship and it's just so realistic.

[HeyThere83]

It is still early in the season but I am hoping at some point there is something to be said for personal responsibility with some of this stuff.

[WhosThatGirl]

The only storyline I'm really over is Kate's. There seems to be no other layers to it other than her weight and her in my opinion luckluster romance with Toby and that's always tied back to her weight. 

It was the same problem I had with the Kevin character and his storyline being all about acting, but now there seems to be layers. His relationships with Randall and his mom that he wishes to improve and work on along with his acting in a play. 

[breezy424]

So... Just you and me or Just you and I?   It's debatable.  For me, 'me' is fine and we can go into a whole grammar discussion on it and argue points of adverbs, objects, etc.  I think the point of it was Randall 'needed' to 'correct' Kevin.

Bottom line for me is that both are in a competition with one another and from what I've seen, it's being going on for quite some time.  Maybe forever.  In addition to 'his' correction that Randall needed to show about Kevin's grammar, we also see that Randall had to add that he did two more miles than Kevin.  There was no need for that.  Sorry, Randall is no innocent in this.  

Going back, Randall took the Rubik's cube from Kevin and solved it in seconds.  I get both sides of the story.  Randall is the adopted one.  I understand his point of view but I also understand Kevin's point of view.  They are/were awful to each other in their own way.  Randall wanted to go with his brother and 'his' friends when they got off the school bus.  Keven didn't want to and 'dismissed' Randall. I get it.  Kevin needed his own life without comparison to Randall.  And their mother played sides because of her own set of 'guilts'.  Rebeca sucked in this department.  And, to not the same extent so far, Jack kind of sucked too.  I could change my mind on Jack in the future because we haven't seen Jack's viewpoint on all this yet. 

The light was a no brainer.  It's two o'clock in the morning.  Sorry, I don't care how much school work you have to do.  I don't care that you're on the football team and you have a full load of 'stuff' you have to do.  No excuse.  You don't infringe upon another.  You go to another room.  Period.  Shame on you, Rebeca.  It's Kevin's room just as much as it is Randall's.  And if your kid has to stay up until that time to do his school work then maybe you have to make a decision as parent and say to your child that he has to make a choice as to what is most important to him.  Sports or academics.  Don't 'blame' the child who has nothing to do with it but is simply trying to sleep at a  totally acceptable hour.

The most poignant statement made by one of these children was what Kevin said at the pool after almost drowning.  It was the truth.

Edited November 18, 2016 by breezy424

[methodwriter85]

They did a great job with the state of their 90's house to show that Jack and Rebecca have much more money than they did back in the 80's- and they're much, much more miserable. I got such an American Beauty milieu from it.

I'm kind of curious though- were stainless steel appliances really a thing with upper middle class homes in the early/mid-90's? My family was on the poor side and I wasn't really aware of that whole craze until watching HouseHunters back in 2005 on HGTV. The countertops didn't look like granite, which was a huge part of what we called the "Holy Trinity" on TWOP for the househunter, so I guess the stainless steel thing came first?

[biakbiak]

21 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

They did a great job with the state of their 90's house to show that Jack and Rebecca have much more money than they did back in the 80's- and they're much, much more miserable. I got such an American Beauty milieu from it.

I'm kind of curious though- were stainless steel appliances really a thing with upper middle class homes in the early/mid-90's? My family was on the poor side and I wasn't really aware of that whole craze until watching HouseHunters back in 2005 on HGTV. The countertops didn't look like granite, which was a huge part of what we called the "Holy Trinity" on TWOP for the househunter, so I guess the stainless steel thing came first?

Yes, this article in 2012 puts stainless steal as being popular for over 25 years.

My familyoved from Seattle to CT in the mid 90s and every house we toured that had stainless appliances the realtor would say the kitchen had been updated. My parents bought a house with a "gut job*"of a kitchen because it had beige appliances. 

*According to the realtor but didn't update them until they redid the kitchen and decade later and it wasn't with SS.

Edited November 18, 2016 by biakbiak

[HeyThere83]

4 hours ago, breezy424 said:

So... Just you and me or Just you and I?   It's debatable.  For me, 'me' is fine and we can go into a whole grammar discussion on it and argue points of adverbs, objects, etc.  I think the point of it was Randall 'needed' to 'correct' Kevin.

Bottom line for me is that both are in a competition with one another and from what I've seen, it's being going on for quite some time.  Maybe forever.  In addition to 'his' correction that Randall needed to show about Kevin's grammar, we also see that Randall had to add that he did two more miles than Kevin.  There was no need for that.  Sorry, Randall is no innocent in this.  

Going back, Randall took the Rubik's cube from Kevin and solved it in seconds.  I get both sides of the story.  Randall is the adopted one.  I understand his point of view but I also understand Kevin's point of view.  They are/were awful to each other in their own way.  Randall wanted to go with his brother and 'his' friends when they got off the school bus.  Keven didn't want to and 'dismissed' Randall. I get it.  Kevin needed his own life without comparison to Randall.  And their mother played sides because of her own set of 'guilts'.  Rebeca sucked in this department.  And, to not the same extent so far, Jack kind of sucked too.  I could change my mind on Jack in the future because we haven't seen Jack's viewpoint on all this yet. 

The light was a no brainer.  It's two o'clock in the morning.  Sorry, I don't care how much school work you have to do.  I don't care that you're on the football team and you have a full load of 'stuff' you have to do.  No excuse.  You don't infringe upon another.  You go to another room.  Period.  Shame on you, Rebeca.  It's Kevin's room just as much as it is Randall's.  And if your kid has to stay up until that time to do his school work then maybe you have to make a decision as parent and say to your child that he has to make a choice as to what is most important to him.  Sports or academics.  Don't 'blame' the child who has nothing to do with it but is simply trying to sleep at a  totally acceptable hour.

The most poignant statement made by one of these children was what Kevin said at the pool after almost drowning.  It was the truth.

It seems to me the show is not doing a very good job of showing Rebecca's poor treatment of Kevin or that Randall was equally awful. They are on the other hand making it clear Kevin was a bully. Mean. And that it was like that from the very beginning without having Randall provoke him. Most of the flashbacks show him as someone that is not pleasant to be around. Randall became aware of it and eventually started to push back some rather than sit and take everything all the time. This probably pissed Kevin off more since I am sure he expected him to just remain his punching bag forever and tried his best to make him feel inferior. If Kevin never wanted a taste of his own medicine he should have never dished it out. I'm curious as to what consequences he had when it came to bullying, if any. Maybe Kevin didn't want 1/3 of the attention, but all of it. As he said, he wanted to be the STAR. I'm amazed that after all this Randall still seemed to want a relationship with him. I would want nothing to do with the guy. Adult Kevin has no friends or close relationships. His blame game is strong. It's Rebecca, it's Randall, it's Jack, it's the writers of his show, it's the TV executives, it's the audience. The same audience that was giving him loads of attention is who he decided to insult and dismiss when he realized he wanted something different and this wasn't good enough for him anymore. It couldn't possibly be on him for signing a contract and expecting that he as an actor, not a writer or creator would be able to change the character into what he thought it should be. After throwing a tantrum on set he acted surprised that things weren't going to go his way with the execs and that the world actually didn't revolve around him. The show also threw a scene in of Kevin walking in and greeting a (valet attendant?) with "my man" but couldn't be bothered to remember his name, leaving the guy to correct him. He acted surprised to see that he was replaced on a show he walked out on. But not only that, the replacement was......BLACK!!! Relationship with Kate is good, but she has also been catering to his every need for years as his personal assistant. So instead of constantly pointing the finger and throwing pity parties every other day he should look at himself when it comes to figuring out why he is in the situation he is. Maybe the show will make it more clear in the future that his family neglected him but I wish that would have happened before this episode that was considered to be digging deeper into the conflict with the brothers.

[kili]

Quote

It seems to me the show is not doing a very good job of showing Rebecca's poor treatment of Kevin or that Randall was equally awful. They are on the other hand making it clear Kevin was a bully. Mean.

I believe that the show is about how people are complex. That they have been shaped by a series of actions and perceived actions. That, in most cases, people are good, but they inadvertently do harm that they did not intend. That we each influence people in good ways and bad ways. That what we perceived may not be the same as what others perceive That there is more than one perspective.  

The show is slowly revealing this all to us. What we see one way in one episode is given a different perspective in another.

I don't think that the show intends to portray any of the characters as truly evil or truly saint-like. They are human.

They are showing that we grow our entire lives. 

To have one character be just a one-note bully while the other is a hero who is practically perfect in every way would be a dull show. It would be an unreal show. I think the writers are reaching higher than that.

So far, for me, the writers have been achieving their goals. But that is just my perspective.

[Clanstarling]

@kili, Yes to every single thing you said.

[Dowel Jones]

12 hours ago, breezy424 said:

So... Just you and me or Just you and I?   It's debatable.

At least they got the show title right.  Or should I have said correct? Right?

Edited November 18, 2016 by Dowel Jones
Because I haven't had my coffee yet.

[ClareWalks]

2 hours ago, kili said:

I believe that the show is about how people are complex. That they have been shaped by a series of actions and perceived actions. That, in most cases, people are good, but they inadvertently do harm that they did not intend. That we each influence people in good ways and bad ways. That what we perceived may not be the same as what others perceive That there is more than one perspective.  

The show is slowly revealing this all to us. What we see one way in one episode is given a different perspective in another.

I don't think that the show intends to portray any of the characters as truly evil or truly saint-like. They are human.

They are showing that we grow our entire lives. 

To have one character be just a one-note bully while the other is a hero who is practically perfect in every way would be a dull show. It would be an unreal show. I think the writers are reaching higher than that.

So far, for me, the writers have been achieving their goals. But that is just my perspective.

Yes, yes, and yes. I think a lot of viewers/commenters may be frustrated that they don't know "who's the good guy and who's the bad guy" in this show, but that is the point. They are all good AND bad. They make mistakes. Jack and Rebecca make parenting mistakes. All the kids can be dicks or they can be victims of dick-ery. I like that the characters have layers and don't do the perfect, correct thing every time, because nobody acts like that IRL.

[HeySandyStrange]

41 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Yes, yes, and yes. I think a lot of viewers/commenters may be frustrated that they don't know "who's the good guy and who's the bad guy" in this show, but that is the point. They are all good AND bad.

Am I ever glad that this seemingly straight-forward family show raises above the "good vs. bad" story telling, which is only useful for teaching young children simple morality tales. I like that Kevin is more then a selfish empty-head pretty boy and shows moments of vulnerability and self-awareness. I like that Randall is more then the lovable, brilliant nerd and can be cutting and even a little arrogant. I like that Kate isn't some poor fat saintly creature and can be abrasive and hard-headed. I like that Rebecca&Jack aren't Ma&Pa Ingells anymore then the are the Peg&Al Bundy. I REALLY like that the actions of the characters have realistic and fitting consequences. Call me nuts, but that is good story-telling imho.

[Jx223]

9 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

It seems to me the show is not doing a very good job of showing Rebecca's poor treatment of Kevin or that Randall was equally awful. They are on the other hand making it clear Kevin was a bully. Mean. And that it was like that from the very beginning without having Randall provoke him. Most of the flashbacks show him as someone that is not pleasant to be around. Randall became aware of it and eventually started to push back some rather than sit and take everything all the time. This probably pissed Kevin off more since I am sure he expected him to just remain his punching bag forever and tried his best to make him feel inferior. If Kevin never wanted a taste of his own medicine he should have never dished it out. I'm curious as to what consequences he had when it came to bullying, if any. Maybe Kevin didn't want 1/3 of the attention, but all of it. As he said, he wanted to be the STAR. I'm amazed that after all this Randall still seemed to want a relationship with him. I would want nothing to do with the guy. Adult Kevin has no friends or close relationships. His blame game is strong. It's Rebecca, it's Randall, it's Jack, it's the writers of his show, it's the TV executives, it's the audience. The same audience that was giving him loads of attention is who he decided to insult and dismiss when he realized he wanted something different and this wasn't good enough for him anymore. It couldn't possibly be on him for signing a contract and expecting that he as an actor, not a writer or creator would be able to change the character into what he thought it should be. After throwing a tantrum on set he acted surprised that things weren't going to go his way with the execs and that the world actually didn't revolve around him. The show also threw a scene in of Kevin walking in and greeting a (valet attendant?) with "my man" but couldn't be bothered to remember his name, leaving the guy to correct him. He acted surprised to see that he was replaced on a show he walked out on. But not only that, the replacement was......BLACK!!! Relationship with Kate is good, but she has also been catering to his every need for years as his personal assistant. So instead of constantly pointing the finger and throwing pity parties every other day he should look at himself when it comes to figuring out why he is in the situation he is. Maybe the show will make it more clear in the future that his family neglected him but I wish that would have happened before this episode that was considered to be digging deeper into the conflict with the brothers.

I think that you bring up a lot of good points. Including the one about Kevin and his relationships or lack thereof. Kevin is very popular due to him being a celebrity but it doesn't seem like he has a lot of close friends. Or really any close friend outside of Kate. He doesn't seem to have a "Miguel" in his life. (And neither does Kate and I'm not sure that Randall does either.Maybe we will find out at least one of them does have a really good friend/friends later on).

Kevin treated Randall badly when they were kids but now it's like he "needs" to live with Randall and be around him to some degree. He doesn't want to leave Randall's home.  I think that is interesting. Part of it probably has to do with him missing Kate and he may also now be the type of person that doesn't like to be alone. Which is kind of an interesting contrast from teen Kevin who literally did not even want to be in the same room as Randall. 

Also, I wonder how many times Kevin may have wished he was an only child. Kids with siblings will wish that sometimes but it wouldn't surprise me if he wished that a whole lot. I am looking forward to seeing more of how the siblings interact with each other as children. I want to see how different dynamics play out in their relationships with each other. Kevin and Kate are shown to be close now but I wonder if they were quite as close as kids.

She got more attention for her issues as well and I wonder if he ever showed her even a smidge of the resentment he showed Randall. Kate and Randall seem to get along well enough and I wonder if Kevin ever tried to undermine their relationship in the past. I wonder if he ever got jealous of any bond that Randall/Kate may have had. I also wonder if Randall felt wistful/insecure about Kevin's/Kate's bond, especially because Kevin kept rejecting him.

I am looking forward to seeing how the show explores what else happened with the kids as they grew up and reveals more about the types of relationships they had during that time and after Jack died.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Jx223

[Court]

Look at the Rubix cube situation. Randall was the one completely in the wrong there. You simply can't place all the blame on Kevin.

Kevin was trying to solve it, Randall snatched it from Kevin and showed him up by solving it quickly. Kate responds by praising Randall for how quickly he solved it. 

Let's not ignore the fact that he was sent to a different school because he is gifted. I'm not saying that was wrong but it can hae a negative impact on the siblings. Especially when the siblings struggle at school. We're very conscious of that in our household. My oldest has learning disabilities and school is easy for our middle daughter. It's not great for his confidence and it's a difficult thing to navigate as parents. 

That doesn't make everything Kevin does ok but both brothers have contributed to their relationship. 

[Lady Calypso]

9 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

It seems to me the show is not doing a very good job of showing Rebecca's poor treatment of Kevin or that Randall was equally awful. They are on the other hand making it clear Kevin was a bully. Mean. And that it was like that from the very beginning without having Randall provoke him. Most of the flashbacks show him as someone that is not pleasant to be around. Randall became aware of it and eventually started to push back some rather than sit and take everything all the time. This probably pissed Kevin off more since I am sure he expected him to just remain his punching bag forever and tried his best to make him feel inferior. If Kevin never wanted a taste of his own medicine he should have never dished it out. I'm curious as to what consequences he had when it came to bullying, if any. Maybe Kevin didn't want 1/3 of the attention, but all of it. As he said, he wanted to be the STAR. I'm amazed that after all this Randall still seemed to want a relationship with him. I would want nothing to do with the guy. Adult Kevin has no friends or close relationships. His blame game is strong. It's Rebecca, it's Randall, it's Jack, it's the writers of his show, it's the TV executives, it's the audience. The same audience that was giving him loads of attention is who he decided to insult and dismiss when he realized he wanted something different and this wasn't good enough for him anymore. It couldn't possibly be on him for signing a contract and expecting that he as an actor, not a writer or creator would be able to change the character into what he thought it should be. After throwing a tantrum on set he acted surprised that things weren't going to go his way with the execs and that the world actually didn't revolve around him. The show also threw a scene in of Kevin walking in and greeting a (valet attendant?) with "my man" but couldn't be bothered to remember his name, leaving the guy to correct him. He acted surprised to see that he was replaced on a show he walked out on. But not only that, the replacement was......BLACK!!! Relationship with Kate is good, but she has also been catering to his every need for years as his personal assistant. So instead of constantly pointing the finger and throwing pity parties every other day he should look at himself when it comes to figuring out why he is in the situation he is. Maybe the show will make it more clear in the future that his family neglected him but I wish that would have happened before this episode that was considered to be digging deeper into the conflict with the brothers.

This is what I appreciate about this show: it's so complex that we all see different perspectives. I clearly see Rebecca's poor mishandling of Kevin and I also see Kevin as a mean bully toward Randall as a result of his mother's parenting, and maybe even Jack's. I love that Rebecca is not a perfect mother, even after all these years. I love that Kevin is selfish and a jerk, just like Randall can be arrogant and competitive. I think our own life experiences can influence the way we watch this show, and that not one character on this show is good or bad. They're all...in the middle. Like I've pointed out, it makes more of an impact than Parenthood, where all the characters got away with everything because they were the Bravermans. 

Basically, I think this show is trying to strip down the concepts of good and bad and show that these characters are people, who are complex and have more layers than just a bad bully or a saint. They all have experiences, like we do, that influence their choices as they grow. 

So, you see Kevin as a bully. Sure, he can be, but we can see that his experiences have shaped him to be who he is, figurative warts and all. We see why Randall might be so competitive and wanting to be perfect all of the time, with being an adopted black son in a white household. Rebecca's parenting might have been influenced by her own childhood. Who really knows? But it's nice to see that each character has reasons for being the way they are. 

[Hanahope]

I do appreciate the topic of Kate's weight and the struggles that obese people have.  However, given that this show is supposed to obstensively be a 'family drama', how about we see more of Kate interacting with her family.  Ever since Kevin moved to the east coast, she hasn't really interacted with anyone except for Toby, and frankly, that's not terribly satisfying, because again all if focuses on is her weight.

Obviously, that's a major issue for her, as her size is big enough to have a real adverse effect on so much of her life.  But I'm not sure I want to watch a drama where that's the main issue, or pretty much the only issue for one of the main characters.  We need Kate's new boss need to go to NYC for some big event, or for a six month project or something so Kate can interact with her brothers.

I'm not terribly surprised they haven't shown Kate see a doctor about her weight, although I'm sure she has.  More than likely, he gave her the usual spiel of eat less/exercise more, since most medications aren't favored/too risky/aren't effective.  I'm sure at her weight, surgery could be considered, but unless the actress wants to undergo that IRL, they aren't going to be showing that on TV (unless it becomes a story of it not working/complications).  I agree that the show could have her see a psychiatrist/therapist to explore the likely emotional causes/contributory causes of her weight, and I'm sure it would include a recommendation against seeing Toby, because his views as to weight are not in sync with Kate's right now and that's going to be destructive to her ability to lose weight.

[izabella]

I appreciate Kate's weight struggles and story line, and I even like Toby, but I fail to understand why the show has split her off from the rest of the family in an entirely disconnected story line. 

When Kevin first left for NY, and when Kate told Toby that her brothers always comes first, the show seemed to be making a big deal about their co-dependent twin relationship, but I'm not seeing one tiny little bit of that in the flashbacks, nor in the present.  We haven't seen Kate and Kevin interacting in any particular way as children, certainly not doing things together or talking together, or having any conversations about Randall or the parents or anything.  And they've had no interactions at all since Kevin left.  Even if they felt they needed separation, I find it really hard to believe that means they would NEVER talk or text or email how things are going.

The way they are treating Kate and Kevin is really weird and unbelievable to me, and Kate's adult character is a real weakness in the show's writing.

[kili]

Quote

 the show seemed to be making a big deal about their co-dependent twin relationship, but I'm not seeing one tiny little bit of that in the flashbacks, nor in the present.  We haven't seen Kate and Kevin interacting in any particular way as children, certainly not doing things together or talking together, or having any conversations about Randall or the parents or anything. 

Sometimes, memories are faulty things. They were very close as babies (happier to sleep together), but the parents may have intervened trying to get the brothers to be closer. Putting them in a room together and trying to get the two boys to do boy-things together.  Deciding a boy/girl should not sleep together. Kate and Kevin barely interact in the scenes where they are 8 and 15. Perhaps they became closer after their dad's death? And now they remember themselves as being close as kids?

I'm sure that is one of the perspective things they show us.

Quote

And they've had no interactions at all since Kevin left.  Even if they felt they needed separation, I find it really hard to believe that means they would NEVER talk or text or email how things are going.

Kevin did call her to tell her how bad his audition went and she blew him off so she could stalk Toby's ex.  Perhaps we just aren't seeing the other interactions?

[WhosThatGirl]

It is interesting that from the first two episodes it would seem Kate and Kevin are very close. As babies they preferred to sleep together, as adults they were both living in LA and Kate  worked for Kevin. When Kevin left, Kate made a speech about the twin connection and then then the plane had  turbulence and she felt it as well as Kevin. 

But yes 8 years old when we learned Kevin takes part in calling Randell Webster when the kids got off the bus and Kevin's friends called him that and he walked off with them, Kate stayed by Randells side and had a sort of sad look in her eye as well. At 15, there was really no interaction between Kevin and Kate. She seemed annoyed by his behavior or at least over it, she congratulated Randell on getting his own room.  

But yes.. there needs to be more of a link on what brings them close together. Because as adults they did seem really close, to a point where it was possibly unhealthy. The catalyst for this may possibly be the dads death, as it does seem like Jack was good with all the kids. We've seen him with Randall and the school thing, he made time with Kevin as a kid and Kate adores him. I think Rebecca is the one who had the most trouble with parenting and not in a bad way. It's just obvious that her relationships with Kevin and Kate may be strained and this may be why after jack died, Kate and Kevin got closer.