La La Land (2016)

[Lazlo]

31 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

La La Land as the odds on favorite has been the narrative for a while. It's a movie about Hollywood and not just that but a movie celebrating artists (musician/actors specifically). I personally didn't find it pleasing and frothy (I thought it was bitter and cynical) but it is about a romantic relationship and it's a colorful musical. The Oscars like romantic movies and they like spectacle. It's got two relatively famous stars (particularly compared to Moonlight) who have gotten awards attention in the past. The movie was written and directed by a young auteur who had already gotten attention for a movie last year and the Oscars loves anointing (usually white, usually male) directors. Also, yeah, it's not a very diverse cast and the Oscars hasn't been great about awarding diverse films though evidently the changes they made to shake up the voting body had some effect. And during awards season, La La Land had all the momentum and seemed to be doing the major campaigning work.

I'm not sure that's true though.

I'm looking at the Best Picture wins since 2000 on Wikipedia and the Oscars actually don't seem to like romance that much - I'd only qualify Slumdog Millionaire, The Artist and maybe A Beautiful Mind as being romantic relationship movies, and that last one is pushing it. That is 3 films out of 17. Nor do they seem fond of musicals: Moulin Rouge!, Ray and Les Misérables all lost out with only Chicago winning best picture (and if you find La La Land to be cynical and bitter...) Even films about Hollywood/artists don't do all that well.  I can only see Birdman and The Artist doing well there.

Worst of all La La Land is popular with cinema goers which more often than not seems to be a kiss of death from the academy.

[KatWay]

I thought it was interesting that it came down to two movies which were not typical Oscarbait in most ways. I think La La Land's early hype and massive frontrunner status made people forget that it was actually a pretty interesting concept that doesn't really qualify as awards bait at all.

Moonlight as an understated story of a homosexual African-American definitely isn't in the Academy's wheelhouse either. I'll never forget Crash winning over Brokeback Mountain. And Carol last year was a critical darling but not even nominated for best picture.

So it's quite funny it came down to those two (I'm absolutely sure La La Land was in second place for BP). I guess considering frontrunner status and hype Moonlight is the underdog in that scenario, but La La Land is definitely an unusual film to sweep at the Oscars too. So I'm happy both films won in a big way!

[Silver Raven]

5 hours ago, Lazlo said:

Worst of all La La Land is popular with cinema goers which more often than not seems to be a kiss of death from the academy.

Hidden Figures was the biggest money drawing Best Picture nominee.

[JustaPerson]

Hence why it didn't win! ;) 

I'd agree that La La Land wasn't actually the usual Oscar bait movie (unlike, say The King's Speech which was the epitome of Oscar bait) or at least the type of film that actually wins Oscars and neither was Moonlight. 

[snickers]

I heard some oscar voters felt hidden figures was "too light hearted".  I think they did that so that younger children can see the movie, which i agree with, but yeah, i knew it wasn't getting no oscar wins

Moonlight though- i was hoping would win awards and i had predicted a BP win.

As for La La Land, yes they were gracious but as one of my friends said, "What choice did they have?"  I don't feel too bad for them, they won a lot, and while i like Emma Stone a lot, her performance was not oscar worthy! I'm sorry but Natalie was robbed plain and simple.

And I agree about Faye D-she should be getting WAY more heat than Warren, though i don't get why they both just didn't say..."I dont think this is right."

Oh well, who am i to judge-many people have said to me, "old people should not do live TV" ha!

[Dejana]

The trajectory of this film is so surreal to me because I first started paying attention to it when Emma Watson and Miles Teller were going to star, and certainly nobody was calling it disgustingly surefire Oscarbait back then. Even with Stone and Gosling, people from the first test showings were saying, "Eh, maybe it will play at the Globes?" It wasn't until the film festivals that it became an Oscar frontrunner, then the backlash, and here we are. I liked the movie a lot but am cracking up at the saddest post-Oscars ad ever:

[SmithW6079]

I saw this movie last night at a local university, and I thought it suuuuucked. God, it was awful and so overrated. Pretentious, self-indulgent, self-aware of its own "cuteness," but Hollywood loves stories about itself, so no wonder it got all those undeserved accolades.

I love musicals, but this wasn't so much a musical as a movie with songs in it. The classic musicals use songs to advance the story; here, the songs seemed to be dropped in at random, with no rhyme or reason.

Ryan Gosling's character is an asshole, and Emma Stone's is a wimp who annoyed the shit out of me. I thought the dancing and the score were OK, but the singing was weak. 

Scenes went on for an excruciating length of time, when where the story was headed became clear minutes earlier. There were scenes that I think were supposed to be serious or touching, but were so ridiculous I almost laughed out loud.

If the movie had ended at their kiss in the planetarium, then it would have been OK (it would also have been an hour long, but at least we wouldn't have been subjected to another hour of these awful people).

The break-up is trite, and the extended fantasy scene where they didn't break up is a "fuck you" to the audience, because they were trying to get in the "happy ending" and the bittersweet "life goes on" ending in one movie.

It probably didn't help that right before the university showed "Hidden Figures," which was excellent. Any of those actresses would have been more deserving of Best Actress than Stone.

Blech.

[Ohwell]

I had a feeling I was in for some agony, beginning with the opening scene with random people dancing around/on top of their cars.  I stuck with the movie but it did suck.  It was so bad, I couldn't even enjoy hate-watching it.

[Shannon L.]

I didn't think it was that bad, but I didn't think it was worthy of all the nominations and wins. I thought it was ok. 

[SmithW6079]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

I had a feeling I was in for some agony, beginning with the opening scene with random people dancing around/on top of their cars.  I stuck with the movie but it did suck.  It was so bad, I couldn't even enjoy hate-watching it.

I actually enjoyed the huge production number in the beginning; it gave me hope the movie was as good as it was said to be. It was pretty much downhill after that. 

[Shannon L.]

1 hour ago, SmithW6079 said:

I actually enjoyed the huge production number in the beginning; it gave me hope the movie was as good as it was said to be. It was pretty much downhill after that. 

I enjoyed the scene at the party when Ryan's character's ego was taking a hit for being in an 80s cover band.  That and the following song gave me a bit of hope that it was going to be a cute movie.  After that is when it went downhill for me. 

[Bruinsfan]

That and the dance scene on the sunset walk back to the cars were charming to me, but things went south once the couple began  dating and Seb started mansplaining/whitesplaining Jazz to everyone he met (including actual musicians who were making a living at it, unlike him).

[methodwriter85]

I absolutely hated the "what if" ending. Such bullshit. I enjoyed the movie overall but I absolutely hated the bullshit of "let's give them a fake happy ending." That felt incredibly pointless.

Edited May 3, 2017 by methodwriter85

[Shannon L.]

The Honest Trailer is here and I love it  :)

 

Also, I forgot to add in my previous post about the scene that made me think it was going to be a fun movie:  I do like Emma and Ryan and think they are really charming together.  But this film was just really disappointing considering all the nominations it got. 

[meep.meep]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:20 PM, vibeology said:

It got an Oscar nomination for this today and I honestly can't believe it. The other nominations are deserved but that? Nope.

At least it didn't win the Oscar for best sound editing.

I'm the last person in America to see this, and I watched it on TV.  The entire two hours I'm working the volume up and down, up and down, so that I could hear the dialog and not blast my neighbors out during the musical numbers.  It's the worst sound editing ever.

Who decided to cast John Legend?  You've put up with Gosling and Stone singing like normal people (aka mumbling and not projecting), then Legend gets up and sings like a real singer.  Makes you think.

And I can't be the only person who was bugged during the opening number because the cars on both sides of the freeway were pointed in the same direction?  What a weird choice!  Showing the people interacting in the dance, whether they were coming or going, would have actually made a statement.  You've already paid to shut the road down, do it right.

[Shannon L.]

2 hours ago, meep.meep said:

And I can't be the only person who was bugged during the opening number because the cars on both sides of the freeway were pointed in the same direction?  What a weird choice! 

That's the 105 and 110 interchange.  It's the on ramp that heads from the 105 to the 110 and I don't remember the last time that I drove on it, but  there are 4 lanes in headed in the same direction that could be divided by a small wall in in between the 4 lanes.  That could be because one is either a carpool lane or a fast pass lane and the other is for everyone else. 

[paramitch]

I was late seeing this, and am later still to take a moment to comment. And contrary to most here, I loved it without reservation or qualification. Loved it. Adored it. With my whole heart. Loved it in a way that will stay with me for a long time. I bought it in May and so far, I must have watched it 6 times. And I've watched the glorious "Another Day of Sun" tour-de-force (single take!) opening number easily 2 dozen times over a period of months, as my "go to your happy place" song. It was a tour de force of wit, tune, joy, diversity and choreography (Mandy Moore! As a SYTYCD fan, that was awesome).

I've read the entire thread, and was surprised nobody mentioned what I felt were some of the movie's other visible inspirations because they're so crucial to where the movie's story goes. I know people have mentioned The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, and I agree, but I'd argue it is overwhelmingly further inspired by (1) Casablanca, and (2) An American in Paris. Ingrid Bergman and Casablanca especially are repeated motifs throughout the entire movie, beginning to end (with dialogue and visual references including Mia and Seb's conversation on the lot, Mia's gigantic wall poster, Seb's final very poignant confrontation with Mia in his club, etc.).  Meanwhile, the entire final glorious 15-minute dance sequence of Seb's alternate universe, so bittersweet and lovely, is, to me, a clear homage to Gene Kelly's tour de force final, similarly bittersweet sequence, in An American in Paris.

Meanwhile. I know there are many unhappy that Emma and Ryan aren't huge singers (although i thought Emma acquitted herself pretty damn well by the end), but although I'm a total music theatre nerd (a sometime performer, director and columnist, not that that means anything) for me that worked with the delicate picture Chazelle is painting here. I felt he was trying to show us a musical where people sing like breathing. Not because perfect music must emerge but -- whether they trill operatically or not -- they simply MUST sing. They must dance. They must float. The moment moves them, and they sing and dance and even fly because that is the magic of the moment and the magic of love. And the magic of movies. And this movie is also a conscious love letter to all of those things.

And... I thought both the music and choreography backed this up gorgeously. It all looked and felt just slightly understated and relaxed. The musical numbers were so gentle... the film slid into them, almost shyly, and it made them feel more real to me, more heartfelt and vulnerable and tentative. That first dance between Seb and Mia on Mulholland was just so gorgeous... we get to watch two people fall in love, and fall so deeply they must sing and dance to declare themselves. (And I loved the realization afterward, that cool cynical Seb had, in fact -- for all his studied air of ennui -- walked up that entire hill just to talk to her, as his car was way back in front of the house they'd just left).

On 12/31/2016 at 4:22 PM, arc said:

The ending was an homage to a famous musical, one that's deeply inspired Chazelle. The protagonists of his first movie were named after characters from it, this film referenced it, and apparently (it's been a long time since I saw it) it also ended along similar bittersweet lines. Spoilers for an old movie, including the name:

  Hide contents

The Umbrellas of Cherbourg, where the two lovers are revealed to have separate lives five years later. I don't think there's a musical montage dream sequence of an alternate life, though.

See my note above -- I'd add really powerful inspiration from Casablanca and An American in Paris, as well.

On 1/2/2017 at 11:31 PM, Bruinsfan said:

Yeah. Maybe I've been spoiled by hearing Alan Menken's work on Galavant for a couple of years from the mouths of people who are (mostly) really good at singing, but whereas I'll still hum those songs after first hearing them 2 years ago, I can't remember the tune of a single one from the movie that I saw Saturday. For that matter, I have a better recollection of songs from Crazy Ex Girlfriend back at the start of December.

Do I think every single song in "La La Land" is strong? Nope. I can't stand "City of Stars" (and it won the freaking Oscar, which... what?) I would also say that I thought a good percentage of the songs on the score were charming but felt too much like counterpoints to other existing songs (like, for instance, the song where Mia's getting dressed for the party, which directly incorporates chord progressions from "Another Day of Sun" and it felt less artful than simply a little derivative. And I'm pretty sure most of the songs were in the same key, which, again, did bug me. But I adored (and hummed) "Another Day of Sun," "A Lovely Night," and "Audition (The Fools Who Dream)."

Conversely, while I'm a huge fan of "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend," and enjoy its musical numbers, I'd put La La Land's numbers on a pretty even keel. And while some of the songs are a bit same-y, I can forgive La La Land a few less stellar moments when I get stuff like the sky dance in the Observatory. Because, holy crap.

On 1/16/2017 at 8:04 AM, sum said:

http://songexploder.net/la-la-land (podcast)

Justin Hurwitz talks about how the audition scene & 'The Fools Who Dream' was recorded / produced. It was already the most powerful scene for me and this made me appreciate it even more. And to think it took only one take..

I love that scene, and that song, so freaking much. It's a gorgeous moment and for me clinched the belief that Emma should (and did) win her Oscar. It's an incredibly bittersweet yet loving paen because the song tells us her aunt died tragically. It's a paradox -- an homage to the dreamers who do not succeed, who still die dreaming, who drink too much, whose dreams poison them with vain hope. It's brutal and incredible.

On 1/17/2017 at 7:59 AM, gator12 said:

I didn't see John Legend as the evil Jazz man, in fact I saw him as being right, one has to evolve to survivor.  I didn't see Ryan Gosling as the savior of Jazz or a white savior, he was a man who was stuck in the past. Like someone who was stuck in Baroque period when the world had move on to the Classical period.

Thank you for this. I agree; I didn't think there was anything in the film that was insulting or demonizing Legend's character.  I think it's unnecessary to simplify his character to that extent, and I feel strongly that that's not what Chazelle is trying to do with the character. Quite the converse -- I actually thought Legend's character came across as a realistic and smart man trying to build bridges between genres and who was trying to bring in sales as well as new fans (jazz crossover fans). And who was willing to work with a talented guy he found rigid and difficult to collaborate with, but who he respected.

On 1/17/2017 at 10:33 AM, vavera4ka said:

Well, technically, they are "regular people".

She is an aspiring actress, not a singer... He is a musician, again, not a singer. So I felt like their raw skills were intentional.

There are plenty of box office draws (maybe not THAT high up the list, but still pretty high) that would sing and dance better, but I think it was another device to make the audience connect better with them.

Also, it seems that they were chosen more for chemistry and "timeless" looks.

Agreed, and so well noted.

On 1/17/2017 at 7:37 PM, marymon said:

As I was saying in general the  movie musicals now days are not using great singers and it lessens the music for me.    Why did they have them rehearse for months to dance and not just have them be regular people dancing too?     Its fantasy they can sing  better in  their own fantasy.

Not trying to be difficult,  the singing just didn't do it for me.

I think the insistence that the performers here be ultra-polished Gene Kelly/Rita Hayworth dancers misses the point of what Chazelle was trying for. There's a time and a place for that (and I love that time and place) but this was more about rawness, as you noted, about soft edges and little interludes, for me -- about people who were not warbling perfection but who were regular folks caught in the moment.

On 1/19/2017 at 5:06 PM, Browncoat said:

Taken at face value, it was a fine song -- nothing wrong with it as a song.  It just represented to Mia (and the rest of us) that Seb sold out.  And initially not for the right reasons.  Ultimately, he used it to achieve his goal of opening the club, but initially, it was simply because he thought Mia was embarrassed to talk to her parents about him.

I disagree. I think Legend's character presented a fully viable alternative for Seb. Which was absolutely awesome -- IF that was his dream. Which we know it wasn't. What Mia called him out on was not his success; it was that he had achieved it doing something he visibly, actively, hated and did not respect. It would have been like Mia being cast as Vanna White or something; it wasn't why she was in this, it wasn't what she wanted to say with her talent.

Last but not least, I want to point out how shocked I was that this was Damien Chazelle's follow-up. I mean, I adored "Whiplash" and watched it several times (and the final raw, riveting 6 minutes at least a dozen), but there was not the remotest drop of lightness of humor there. So I was mindblown that he created this adorable sweet soapbubble of a musical fantasy next. Kudos in every way.

Thanks for the chance to share my thoughts. I loved this movie so much, and was so moved by it. I thought it was about fragility and dreams, about stories and artists, about being brave enough to pursue the magic. So many scenes will stay with me forever -- the opening joyful celebration of hope, the sly, cynical numbers, the hopeful soft romantic songs, the triumphant final songs and dances that celebrate dreams and dreamers. I will always love it. 

And I say that as someone who fervently, deeply, deeply... hates L.A. I'll never understand the attraction to it. Butt-ugliest city I have ever seen. Ugly on its streets, ugly inside and out. Ugly. But this movie managed to make it light as a champagne bubble, and, as with Steve Martin's "L.A. Story," I have to salute that.

Edited July 12, 2017 by paramitch
I inadvertently ended up bashing some stuff I love (fixed that).

[Browncoat]

44 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I disagree. I think Legend's character presented a fully viable alternative for Seb. Which was absolutely awesome -- IF that was his dream. Which we know it wasn't.

That not being his dream is what made him a sell-out.  Perhaps a temporary sell-out until he had enough cash to open his club, but a sell-out nonetheless.  And that is what Mia called him out for -- what she saw as giving up on his dream.

[paramitch]

23 minutes ago, Browncoat said:

That not being his dream is what made him a sell-out.  Perhaps a temporary sell-out until he had enough cash to open his club, but a sell-out nonetheless.  And that is what Mia called him out for -- what she saw as giving up on his dream.

I disagree. That's like saying Mia was a sell-out for being a barista or playing the cop in what she knew was a totally shitty movie. When she was raring to go.

What I feel Mia called him out for was not that he was slumming (artists have done it time out of mind, and i applaud every frickin' single one of them if they survived), but that he was playing music he hated. If he had LOVED the band and music? She'd have been his biggest fan. But his hatred of it was palpable and it made her sick to watch him compromise himself that  way. She saw instantly that he was only in it for the money, for their sake, and that (worse) he hated and mocked how simple his task was there (probably the worst outcome of all).

[Browncoat]

I feel like we're saying the same thing but in different ways.

[stillshimpy]

Okay, joining here because I was specifically linked to the conversation (*waves @paramitch).  

I loved La La Land without reservation, qualifier or any need to feel that there's any reason to justify simply loving something.  Moonlight deserved the win more than La La Land did for best film, I think, but then Moonlight actually won.   I liked the songs, even if I don't think they were particularly brilliant, the movie was consciously reviving a genre, in the specific setting that it would make sense to revive a genre of films that is seldom seen or done successfully: Musicals accompanied by dancing.  

I'm not the biggest musical fan, to be completely honest about it, sure I love some of the great ones but something has to be pretty legendary before I'm at the "Yes, I like that too" level.  But I love La La Land for a different reason and I'm tired of trying to pass off perfection as the only way to communicate the beauty of something.   All of the incredibly bland "yes, we stamp this person with the 'you are perfectly symmetrical, therefore beautiful' actors and actresses are often just uninteresting to look at for any length of time.  

I loved that the voices of both Stone and Reynolds reflected something else: neither of them has the "stamped in the symmetrical factory, inspected as perfect" look either.   Reynolds' eyes are a bit close-set, his jaw, forehead, etc.  when you break down his facial features he's not a technically beautiful man, but he's fascinating to watch and becomes this kind of transcendent form of beautiful.   I think when someone is capable of being rather ordinary, or even odd looking and they have that moment of "WHOA! You're stunningly beautiful!" it actually carries more value, for me personally.  Absolutely everything I just said I also apply to Emma Stone.  She is not an actress who has a typical type of beauty.  She can be very striking, she can be so lovely that she's honestly a little breathtaking and then she can also just be sort of odd looking.   It's AWESOME that she's a big star.  I love that.  

That's how I felt about their singing and dancing.   There were moments, mostly early on, where I'd notice "that wasn't the best note..." "that doesn't look as effortless as I've seen it done by the pros..." but that's what made the moments in which they were so perfect together dazzling for me.  It had worth to me, as a viewer, that they were not technically perfect.  

Plus, this movie made me happy.   I needed something that made me happy.   There are no villains here.  

The "dream" is how the story would have run in a Hollywood movie.  It's not an alt-universe, it's the perfect alt-universe in which neither compromised too much but both got exactly what they were dreaming of having....and got to have one another.  

I didn't see Legend as a villain at all, just a dreamer with a different vision.  That was the only way in which he conflicted with Seb's view of how Jazz would be brought back.   Working for Legend is something Sebastian does because he feels like he has a responsibility to make money, to be someone his girlfriend can talk about with pride to her family that clearly questions her own life choices.  

He's not absent from the dream-alt-get-what-we-want-vision, he's there and Sebastian just turns down the offer and gets his dreams anyway.    I don't think the movie presented Legend as a villain either, but the legend of Hollywood is that you can have the most beautiful artistic impulses in the world and the business will fuck it up, pervert it, change it until you can't even recognize it all while telling you it is for your own good, greatness really, to compromise on those artistic visions.   

And ultimately, I love that the love story in this movie is not really about a romance.   It's a love story that has to do with multiple levels of love, including romance, including art, including beauty.  

I can be a really critical viewer of things.   paramitch, in particular, has encountered that when we've both watched things and talked them over.   The lords of mercy all flinched as one that time I talked about Zootopia with her and shredded that poor movie like it had personally insulted a relative, stolen money from my person and told me my dog was funny looking.   That was how harsh my reaction was to that film.   So I'm not exactly a soft sell.  

 

I just happened to love this movie because -- and this may be key -- I watched it at a time when I just wanted a feel-good, low-stakes movie and was delighted that this made me so happy, but also had just the right level of poignancy.   It was okay with me that they didn't end up together, they were the reason neither actually gave up on their dreams.  They were facilitators.  When Sebastian takes his lucrative job, from Legend who is making a perfectly logical pitch that nonetheless is in conflict with Seb's emotional vision and dream, it's Stone's character who puts him back on track.   When she almost misses the moment that will take her from a failed dream to a star?  It's Sebastian showing up and honking to get her butt in gear.  

They weren't the loves of each other's lives.  The movie worked for me because they were the facilitators of each others' dreams but both apparently went on to love other people, quite happily (there was more than one chicken breast in the pan when Sebastian was cooking, so I assumed).  

I don't know.  There isn't a right or a wrong way to watch something, you know?  I watched this expecting to have a critical reaction, as I'm not fond of musicals on a regular basis, had already heard the stuff about Reynolds looking at his feet (didn't care, still don't) and since it was a movie about a musician and an actor respectively trying to make their dreams come true, I thought it fitting that they were not perfect singers or dancers.  

I will admit, I didn't love the extended scene at the planetarium on my second watch but I also didn't hate it.    I'm neutral on that scene in the long run.  But overall, I just loved this movie.  

The first time I saw it was as a free in-flight movie flying overseas.   I liked it so much, I watched it again, on my return trip and had my husband watch it with me.   It was like getting an entertainment hug.  It was a kindhearted movie, set not far from where I live and now drive regularly (help).   So maybe just my personal stage was set for it to have a great debut with me personally.  

For a frame of reference, I'm kind of iffy, at best on Wonder Woman and would merrily shred much of that but La La Land I came home and bought.   

 

 

Quote

That not being his dream is what made him a sell-out.  Perhaps a temporary sell-out until he had enough cash to open his club, but a sell-out nonetheless.  And that is what Mia called him out for -- what she saw as giving up on his dream.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by stillshimpy
reason for edit: quote box. Egads. Still not in the right place, giving up now.

[memememe76]

Great analyses! A one shot Another day in the Sun? TWO chicken breasts? How did I miss that? 

I also first watched it while on the plane. It was a ten hour flight, so I rewatched it 5 times! It is really the best movie to watch while flying. 

[Inquisitionist]

Quote

The "dream" is how the story would have run in a Hollywood movie.  It's not an alt-universe, it's the perfect alt-universe in which neither compromised too much but both got exactly what they were dreaming of having....and got to have one another.  

That's all well and good, but given that it was only 5 years later and they broke up very willingly under circumstances that did NOT have to signify a complete end to their relationship, the "dream" not feel earned to me.  Mia and Seb could have stayed in touch and resumed their relationship in person when Mia returned from Paris.  Instead, 5 years later, she appears to have a 2-year-old child, so it didn't take long for her to move on from "the love of her life."  Seems to me that she and Seb could have had most of the things in their fantasy, just on a somewhat different schedule.  This was not like Ingrid Bergman leaving Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca.

[paramitch]

On 7/11/2017 at 1:51 PM, Browncoat said:

I feel like we're saying the same thing but in different ways.

I laughed at myself later because... yep. You're absolutely right.

On 7/11/2017 at 5:15 PM, stillshimpy said:

I love La La Land for a different reason and I'm tired of trying to pass off perfection as the only way to communicate the beauty of something.   All of the incredibly bland "yes, we stamp this person with the 'you are perfectly symmetrical, therefore beautiful' actors and actresses are often just uninteresting to look at for any length of time.  

I loved that the voices of both Stone and Reynolds reflected something else: neither of them has the "stamped in the symmetrical factory, inspected as perfect" look either.   Reynolds' eyes are a bit close-set, his jaw, forehead, etc.  when you break down his facial features he's not a technically beautiful man, but he's fascinating to watch and becomes this kind of transcendent form of beautiful.   I think when someone is capable of being rather ordinary, or even odd looking and they have that moment of "WHOA! You're stunningly beautiful!" it actually carries more value, for me personally.  Absolutely everything I just said I also apply to Emma Stone.  She is not an actress who has a typical type of beauty.  She can be very striking, she can be so lovely that she's honestly a little breathtaking and then she can also just be sort of odd looking.   It's AWESOME that she's a big star.  I love that.  

I loved that too, and have always loved that about Emma in particular. I think it's kind of a miracle that she's a star. Not that she's not absolutely lovely in her own way, but she is not what I would call traditionally perfect in that perfect-feature-perfect-perfect-spacing tiresome Hollywood way. But I think she's so talented, charismatic, and so wonderful to watch that her stardom is like a kind of gift. And as someone who finds him smoking-hot, I also agree that Gosling's strangeness and appeal are also similar to a degree -- the whole is more than the sum of its parts. 

Quote

Plus, this movie made me happy.   I needed something that made me happy.   There are no villains here.  

Seconding this like nothing else in life! I needed this movie so much when I saw it. Something lighter than air, that celebrated the dreamers in our world, yet that also dared to include the necessary reminder that, right, this is about grownups, and things don't always quite work out as planned for everyone.

Quote

And ultimately, I love that the love story in this movie is not really about a romance.   It's a love story that has to do with multiple levels of love, including romance, including art, including beauty.

For me, the arc of the movie is built on an almost palpable sense of yearning, on the wish and the dream. The opening song -- so incredibly joyful -- also has that slight edge of wistfulness around the edges. Because all those dreamers -- 99 out of 100 of them won't make it. But the dream is sustaining them at that moment and it's enough.

And it's why Mia's audition song ("The Fools Who Dream") moves me so damn much. Because she is singing that song as someone who has given up... and then allowed herself one more last moment to hope, and it's practically killing her. And what does she sing about? The woman who inspired her, the woman she loved, who had similar dreams... and eventually she drowned in them, in bitterness and alcohol. Or, more aptly, the dreams couldn't keep her going forever. Emma's performance there is so gorgeous and complex... It's very moving to me.

On 7/11/2017 at 8:07 PM, memememe76 said:

Great analyses! A one shot Another day in the Sun? TWO chicken breasts? How did I miss that? 

I also first watched it while on the plane. It was a ten hour flight, so I rewatched it 5 times! It is really the best movie to watch while flying. 

Oops, I double-checked this, and it's actually three shots edited together to seem like one continuous shot. Still incredible to me though.

On 7/12/2017 at 9:20 AM, Inquisitionist said:

That's all well and good, but given that it was only 5 years later and they broke up very willingly under circumstances that did NOT have to signify a complete end to their relationship, the "dream" not feel earned to me.  Mia and Seb could have stayed in touch and resumed their relationship in person when Mia returned from Paris.  Instead, 5 years later, she appears to have a 2-year-old child, so it didn't take long for her to move on from "the love of her life."  Seems to me that she and Seb could have had most of the things in their fantasy, just on a somewhat different schedule.  This was not like Ingrid Bergman leaving Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca.

But I felt it was one of the little realistic touches about the relationship -- that they love each other, but it's not enough. I felt that a bittersweet end to their romance was the most believable outcome (setting aside from the fact that they both achieved their dreams, which was lovely, if pretty fantastical). They were already at a tenuous point when Mia went to Paris (a 5-month shoot, presumably followed by a whirlwind of additional projects), and Seb couldn't (or wouldn't/didn't) go.

That's what I love about Seb's final dream sequence -- he is doing all the things he wished he'd done -- the kiss in the club (versus his cruel brush-off), being there for her at her show, saying no to Legend (although I wished that moment had been a little kinder than the implied, brusque "no thanks"), going to Paris with her, etc. It's hindsight being 20/20, when we go back and do everything perfectly.

As Stillshimpy put it:

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The "dream" is how the story would have run in a Hollywood movie.  It's not an alt-universe, it's the perfect alt-universe in which neither compromised too much but both got exactly what they were dreaming of having....and got to have one another.

What makes it so sad is that I think Seb maybe didn't quite fully realize what he had let slip away until the moment in the club (and the fantasy sequence). But I will always love his generous, big-hearted gesture when he drives all the way to her house (in Arizona?) in order to help her get her shot -- to convince her to come back for that all-important audition. It's a really beautiful thing he does there, and for me it cancels a lot of his previous decidedly assy moments.

Meanwhile, the one thing about the ending that I think belies Chazelle's youth is the fact that Mia and Seb both achieve their dreams -- she becomes a big star, and he becomes a successful club owner. It's the one thing I think he might have changed if he had made the movie in middle age, for instance -- that "everything's still okay!" thing. Seb is so intractable that I just don't see him getting where the movie got him -- not in the real world (although it's lovely that he's there anyway). 

[stillshimpy]

On 7/13/2017 at 9:50 PM, paramitch said:

But I will always love his generous, big-hearted gesture when he drives all the way to her house (in Arizona?) in order to help her get her shot -- to convince her to come back for that all-important audition. It's a really beautiful thing he does there, and for me it cancels a lot of his previous decidedly assy moments.

 

@paramitch.  It's Boulder City, NV.   It's driving distance from LA but it's also important to listen to what he is saying to the person calling before he finds out "Wait, this has nothing to do with a social call this is....FUCK.  All arguments and bones of contention aside, I have to step up and do the selfless thing because freaking FATE is on the line."   When asked when he's going to talk to her again, he initially says he won't be.  Their paths are going to diverge from that point forward.  The way that he tries to peel out from the curb (in one of the better laughs in the movie) he doesn't go and get her because he thinks they are going to repair their relationship, he goes and gets her because she'll never know how close she came to getting her chance if he doesn't.   She'll live a life in which she dutifully goes back to school, gets a job, etc.  

I liked that.   I liked that there was an end to their relationship that felt like it made sense:  these were not actually compatible people in a lot of ways.   We have this notion that any love that is truly worthy of being called a great love, or the love of someone's life must be permanent for it to be acknowledged as such but if falling in love really is a little bit about being able to see yourself hopefully through the eyes of another, then a great love can also be about the love you had that made it possible for you to be that version of yourself and move forward as such, even separately.   Permanence and longevity as not actually the only worthy markers for the depth of love or the importance of a relationship.  

They were each other's catalysts and then at the end, he plays her the song he knows will be like an apology note to her.  Not because they've been sitting around pining for each other as they clearly have not.  Mia seems very happy in a relationship that might have had fewer thrills but actually has the kind of affection to go along with love that is the stuff that makes for longevity.   Thrills are overrated as a way of life because they have a counterbalancing "Yes, they are a close relative to jarring and unpleasant" in a lot of instances, if not all, but we saw some of the ways that were the case in Mia and Seb's relationship.  

So it felt earned to me because these people did not strike me as being right for each other in the "together we will face the challenges of years, nay decades, together and we will be the teammates, as well as mates."  

But particularly in Mia's case, part of the look that she turns and gives him, and since she's the playwright I'm assuming she was actually the one filling in the movie version of the notes he was playing, she looks back not because "Oh, the great love of my life!" but because even though he could be a sweetheart or a jackass depending on the moment and his frustration level, he's also the reason she got her dream.  He kept believing in her after she no longer could and it changed her entire life.   Even if you're perfectly happy with your spouse, and Mia appears to be truly, peacefully happy as opposed to "I settled but at least the picture looks good" ...they know what they owe to one another and it is momentarily sad, if not life definingly tragic, that they didn't get to share those dreams together. 

There's a line at the end of I think it's the Sun Also Rises, but I can't swear to it (Wordy McGee over here never really cottoned to Hemingway much, I'm sure you'll all die of shock to learn) that is something like, "We would have been so happy together" which clearly didn't stick in my head because I don't think that's even close to right, but I'm fairly certain the answer that stuck with me is "Isn't it pretty to think so?"  

 

Things are always prettier and easier in the scenarios we imagine.    I loved the movie specifically because it's such a happy, lovely movie that celebrates the kind of bravery it takes to face the likelihood of crushing rejection with optimism and verve but that's the love story of the film.   That's actually a big part of what they love in each other, the other understands what it is like to passionately love something that isn't a person, but a dream and a form of art.  

It's absolutely a love story but Seb looks not merely pleased with his outcome until he catches a glimpse of Mia and realizes how close he came to a different might-have-been and thinks about it, a little older,  a little wiser and then he does this thing that is incredibly generous.   She recognizes it as such. 

Seb's not a character I think I'd like to meet but his best trait is that he can be as generous as he can be ungracious (because we saw that part too) and that he can be generous to such an extent that it completely eclipses the part of him that can be kind of a jerk.   Maybe by the time we see him again, he's overcome that (we all have lesser parts of our natures) because he looked happy, hell, downright merry up until that moment.   That passion that he has brought him to happiness by whatever means.  

paramitch, you know I just bought a car the other day, what I didn't mention was the finance guy at the dealership was a guy from Australia whose wedding anniversary was that night.  Nine years, no kids, she's cooking dinner, he's planning on taking her to a U2 cover band concert in a park later, my husband and I both kind of more than gently hint (I believe my exact words were, "Dude, you know you have to at least bring flowers, right?"  ) that it's a good occasion for a cliched romantic gesture even if she's said, "No fuss" etc.    He assured us that he had chocolates and had that covered.   Well, when I picked up the car (it was shipped in from Fresno) he made a point of finding us to say thanks for the suggestion of the flowers, "That went over a treat" and apparently he told my husband the other part, they never made it to the concert, so apparently they really did.  

But I'm bringing him up because he originally came here from Australia with a record contract, he was a guitarist (presumably still is in some capacity) but it fell through, and all things considered, it all worked out wonderfully because "I met my wife, it all turned out to be for a reason, most things do."   

He was clearly a happy dude who loves his wife.  Who also makes kind of a point of telling people that he also kind of lost a dream and that's why he's working there.   Maybe all happiness plays best with just the occasional reminding pang or sting of the things that might have been, even in life.  One of the ways we know we're happy is by being able to contrast it to when we weren't.   Otherwise it would just be our neutral setting and expected.  

So Mia and Seb are happy and the reason that end scene played well with me is that it exhibited Seb's best trait, the big gesture of generosity in which he tells Mia, in a way she really can't miss entirely, that she was and remains important to him.   

Emma Stone has such an expressive face.  In the car when she's telling her husband (played by stock issue good guy who also has always had his own appealing charisma), "Hey, do you want to pull over here and just grab dinner?"   She looks radiantly happy and it looks like that's often the setting of their emotional dial together.   She was happy and miserable with Sebastian and the same could be said of him but everyone occasionally thinks about their lost dreams whether they are people, places, or entire screenplays we had written around how we thought things would turn out. 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by stillshimpy

[paramitch]

Beautiful post. (Also, FWIW, I have to say -- I absolutely survived (and thoroughly enjoyed) the Great Zootopia Debate. :-) Meanwhile:

19 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

@paramitch.  It's Boulder City, NV.   It's driving distance from LA but it's also important to listen to what he is saying to the person calling before he finds out "Wait, this has nothing to do with a social call this is....FUCK.  All arguments and bones of contention aside, I have to step up and do the selfless thing because freaking FATE is on the line."   When asked when he's going to talk to her again, he initially says he won't be.  Their paths are going to diverge from that point forward.  The way that he tries to peel out from the curb (in one of the better laughs in the movie) he doesn't go and get her because he thinks they are going to repair their relationship, he goes and gets her because she'll never know how close she came to getting her chance if he doesn't.   She'll live a life in which she dutifully goes back to school, gets a job, etc.
 

Thanks for the clarification! I couldn't remember the city. But that's why I love that moment so much. They call, he's assy and wallowing and sad (the Worst Seb), he says they're over and he doesn't know where she is... then he realizes the magnitude of the opportunity and everything changes. And suddenly the wonderful Seb reemerges. And he's Don Quixote tilting at windmills, willing to drive long distances and make speeches just to give Mia this one more unselfish chance at her dream.

Quote

... he doesn't go and get her because he thinks they are going to repair their relationship, he goes and gets her because she'll never know how close she came to getting her chance if he doesn't.   She'll live a life in which she dutifully goes back to school, gets a job, etc.

This! I mean, keep in mind, he doesn't know WHERE SHE LIVES. All he has is her story -- and that he (kudos to him, by the way) remembers -- that she lived across the street from the library. So he drives all the way there on this tiny chance he will find her, convince her, and bring her back to try one more time for this dream she'd given up. I love everything about that so much. Because he isn't doing it for a girlfriend (or to get her back). It's purer than that; he is doing so as an artist, for a fellow artist. It's possibly the most selfless, lovely and amazing thing he will ever do in his life.

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I liked that there was an end to their relationship that felt like it made sense:  these were not actually compatible people in a lot of ways.

... Permanence and longevity as not actually the only worthy markers for the depth of love or the importance of a relationship.  

... So it felt earned to me because these people did not strike me as being right for each other in the "together we will face the challenges of years, nay decades, together and we will be the teammates, as well as mates."  

First off, I dated a kind of Seb type awhile back, and it was interesting. I was writing and also was an occasional singer around Seattle. He was a drummer and played in a few bands that were on the very edge of big contracts that never worked out (seriously, it was like Elvis was in the building for the biggest one). And he was a huge purist on jazz, and was one of those who was evangelical about it.

The thing is, I did develop an appreciation for jazz, I really did. But you know what? I still don't love most of it, I can find it irritating on occasion (especially the variety that involves endless noodling and ornamentation; it's nervous-making), and even at its best, it is, so so often, the saddest fucking music in the world. (Unless it's in New Orleans.) So Seb gets on my nerves because he's so narrow, fixed and evangelical about it. There's a wealth of gorgeous music in this world. He needs to chill.

Quote

But particularly in Mia's case, part of the look that she turns and gives him, and since she's the playwright I'm assuming she was actually the one filling in the movie version of the notes he was playing, she looks back not because "Oh, the great love of my life!" but because even though he could be a sweetheart or a jackass depending on the moment and his frustration level, he's also the reason she got her dream.  

That's exactly how I saw the expression on both of their faces as well. But as before I would add -- for me I think she's the one seeing more clearly there. He's just romanticized every single thing he did wrong in his own mind, yearning for what might have been. And she's just standing there, with a full heart and a full life, and going, "Thank you. I loved you then; I love you now. And goodbye, wishing you every good thing ever."

Quote

There's a line at the end of I think it's the Sun Also Rises, but I can't swear to it (Wordy McGee over here never really cottoned to Hemingway much, I'm sure you'll all die of shock to learn) that is something like, "We would have been so happy together" which clearly didn't stick in my head because I don't think that's even close to right, but I'm fairly certain the answer that stuck with me is "Isn't it pretty to think so?"

When I was in my 20s and early 30s, any movie where the relationship didn't work out was sad to me. Years later, it's a miracle to me that they work at all. I'm usually the one screaming at the screen for the lovers to part as fast as possible to save themselves (JERRY MAGUIRE). So this ending worked for me, and best of all, it felt real and earned. I still cared about both Seb and Mia. But they were better off apart.

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Maybe all happiness plays best with just the occasional reminding pang or sting of the things that might have been, even in life.

I don't know. This idea doesn't work for me. Me and most artists I know, I think it will always hurt to fail, to not to get your message and art out there. If anything it's a sting that gets more bitter with time.
 

Quote

Emma Stone has such an expressive face.  In the car when she's telling her husband (played by stock issue good guy who also has always had his own appealing charisma), "Hey, do you want to pull over here and just grab dinner?"   She looks radiantly happy and it looks like that's often the setting of their emotional dial together.

She does look happy. Even the fact that she left after the one song, I felt, conveyed that absolutely.

And I did have a private chuckle that her husband was played by Tom Everett Scott, who not only excels in playing nice guys, he was the jazz-loving drummer Shades, in "That Thing You Do!" So I thought it was a funny, sly callback not just to Tom and pop culture, but also to Chazelle's superb previous film "Whiplash," which was so unforgettable, and which featured amazing performances by J.K. Simmons (who deservedly won the Best Supporting Actor Oscar) and Miles Teller. 

Edited July 16, 2017 by paramitch
fixed quotes

[stillshimpy]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

I don't know. This idea doesn't work for me. Me and most artists I know, I think it will always hurt to fail, to not to get your message and art out there. If anything it's a sting that gets more bitter with time.

I think you may be primarily applying what I said to artistic pursuits and needing that edge, that sting, to keep a person going and that's not what I personally meant by it.  I was applying that to a personal and an emotional level, which I understand all creation of art comes from a part of that, but I was solely talking about contrasts in happiness vs. the loss of an artistic goal.   

I don't think that artists need to fail, or have that feeling of rejection for contrast, I was talking about the contrast of "I had one type of happiness, it didn't work out for a variety of reasons..."  and how that can actually make you appreciate the kinds of happiness that come afterward in way that gives them more focus, or clarity.   Yeah, I think clarity is actually the right word for that.  The contrast provides emotional clarity. 

That the contrast of a loss, unhappiness, missed opportunity, hell, even grief can make returning happiness better by contrast.  Or if not better, somehow a tiny bit more precious.   I am officially into cheesy 70s song lyric territory in trying  to do the whole "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" deal but that's not actually what I mean.  I mean "the next time you have something, sometimes when detailing how happy you are with it, one of the ways it comes into better focus is to have that contrast to loss....of anything that was emotionally important to you..." .   All very emo stuff, and all that but truly, since I'm really struggling with finding the right words here, I'll circle back to the narrative (how refreshing, right?)  to make my point:  

When Sebastian sees Mia, clearly there is a sting, the what-might-have-been chorus sings/plays/dances across screen as he thinks back to their time together.  She stops and gives him that look before turning to give him something I don't think either really fully achieved before that moment: closure.   Mia knows that Sebastian really was the person who encouraged her to believe in herself, to write a play instead of showing up to be the central-casting-sent-me redhead, that the life she has now was brought to her chiefly through her own talents but also, by that crucial, "when I gave up on myself, you didn't".  

There's a movie poster for a movie called Eleanor Rigby (okey dokey) with Mia's face on it, on the corner of the building right next to Seb's club, the camera pans past it.  Chances are good that Seb has been seeing her face there, other places too if there's a marketing campaign for something she's in.  

Unlike Mia, who forged ahead after a swift kick to the backside at a key time, Sebastian can't have been unaware of her progress.  Her life, her success, where that "I sat in front of a NV suburb blaring my gas-guzzlers horn and risking suburban police arrest" gesture helped get her:  he has to know that all.   He might not know it to the "and she married Standard Issue Charisma Good Guy and had a cute little baby" extent but the camera pans past her face on the building by his jazz club for a reason and it isn't just to show us "she's successful"  Warner Brothers Barista Worship has already conveyed that.  It's got to be a visual reminder of the fact that he's known all along what became of her because the world did too.  He knows what driving (gas-guzzling) convertibles through the desert eventually yielded.  

You mentioned how mulish Sebastian could be with his "I will achieve my jazz vision" but I'm -- and again, I'm deep into assumption territory so I'm going by visual clues and implication -- assuming that Mia Poster was there because the club name, the cocktails, and jazz instead of "Chicken on a Stick" (only Piles and Puddles of Goo would be a worse club name) all imply that doing that for her, just hanging his ass out and encouraging her to do so too, is probably what helped get him there.   Poster on the building: she's really been with him on the journey too because that had to be inspiring for him.   He had to have known what happened with her life, her face is on the darned building.  

And he knows that she is the person primarily responsible for that because she is talented but so are a lot of people, he just saved her from giving up...and that is probably what also saved him from giving up.  

 

Back to my car dealer guy and why I brought him up:  It struck me as funny that they were planning to see a U2 cover band.  I'm not saying that the band sucked, I've no idea, but that's like choosing to stand around in an elevator in one of the cooler office buildings in town listening to the closer-to-cool(ish) muzak.   We're a half an hour, at most, from nearly constant performance opportunities of people trying to really sell their incredibly marketable talent in an area stuffed silly with it.  He was choosing to go see and never making it because apparently, my assessment of their allure is approximately correct, or those flowers really were something, a band that had more or less tattooed "we give up, imitation is the sincerest form of...paying the rent in this case: 1-2-3 Sunday, Bloody Sunday!" on their efforts.   I thought that was a pretty clear indication that whereas he's obviously happy -- and apparently discovered the efficacy of multiple romantic gestures at the 9-year-mark -- it also said something about how much losing that contract really did hurt him.   He apparently just doesn't even go and see the people who are still trying to make it, he was going to see the people who had also made their bargains in life with practicality.   Reminded me Seb's objections to Legend's vision (one of the more memorable songs in the movie and actually a lot of fun, I thought) of jazz.  I'm assuming Infiniti Finance Guy 482 wanted to see performances of the stuff that also helped him dream.   It was, and I apologize if I'm boring the crap out of people with this story, I was clearly kind of fascinated by the concept, such an intriguing thing to me.   This guy, all things considered, told us so little and yet kind of a lot about where he's at with his lost dreams and showed us the ways that might sting.   

It was mostly the power of the concept art as a lost love that got to me there, even if I'm conveying it poorly.  Then, also, he clearly really was very happy, even if he also kind of unconsciously showed a bit of a scar from an old wound.  

In terms of the story:  Mia's face on the building.  The name of the club.  The design of the concept.   The location.   He didn't just help Mia take the chance again, she helped him right back.  I thought that's what the "Wow, he has to see her face pretty much every day right now and then, also, that would imply that since he's in LA he has seen her on billboards, etc.  for most of that time.   

Boy, I'm not even under-caffeinated and I'm having a ton of trouble bringing this into focus:  Yeah, they lost each other romantically and that's kind of fitting because they had basic differences and disparate goals that required a ton of personal focus.   They also didn't lose each other entirely, as witnessed by the details of the life knowing each other made possible for both of them.  

On the great Zootopia debated of '17 (I'm terrified to try and insert another text box, it seldom goes well for me) :  I'm glad you enjoyed it.  I think the word "tiny" is likely missing from the dictionary behind me now, having joined the word protection program ;-) 

ETA:  Risking the wrath of the edit gods because the thing I completely forgot to mention that I thought was a nice bit of emotionally deft writing:  Mia ends up at Sebastian's club with her husband because they both decide it's okay to miss a friend's play.   "We can just see it in New York" said a lot about where they all are in life (friend won't be upset because he/she is in something that/wrote something successful enough to be on a national tour) but also...missing plays has been a big catalyst for both characters.   It was a very softly played call back that I enjoyed. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:50 PM, paramitch said:

And it's why Mia's audition song ("The Fools Who Dream") moves me so damn much. Because she is singing that song as someone who has given up... and then allowed herself one more last moment to hope, and it's practically killing her. And what does she sing about? The woman who inspired her, the woman she loved, who had similar dreams... and eventually she drowned in them, in bitterness and alcohol. Or, more aptly, the dreams couldn't keep her going forever. Emma's performance there is so gorgeous and complex... It's very moving to me.

I wondered what Mia's one-woman show was about if it didn't include this stuff about her aunt inspiring her.  I mean, the audition lady had been in the audience, but asked Mia for something new, and this was it.  Odd.

Quote

That's what I love about Seb's final dream sequence -- he is doing all the things he wished he'd done -- the kiss in the club (versus his cruel brush-off), being there for her at her show, saying no to Legend (although I wished that moment had been a little kinder than the implied, brusque "no thanks"), going to Paris with her, etc. It's hindsight being 20/20, when we go back and do everything perfectly.

Wasn't it Mia's dream sequence?  It came across that way to me, and reviews seem to agree.  So it's Mia envisioning how different life could have been if only Seb had made different choices?  Or somehow she's intuiting that he's imagining this because he plays that non-jazz "theme song"? 

[Bruinsfan]

I definitely took it to be Mia's daydream, not Seb's. For one thing, would he have even remembered bumping into her in that restaurant moments after he'd been fired? Even if Mia had told him about their previous encounters once they started dating, I bet the pool party is his first actual memory of her.

[Browncoat]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

I bet the pool party is his first actual memory of her.

It looked to me like he recognized her (and she recognized him) when she requested "I Ran" at the pool party.

[paramitch]

Thanks so much for continuing the conversation. I think the movie has a lot to offer.

On 7/16/2017 at 10:09 AM, stillshimpy said:

I don't think that artists need to fail, or have that feeling of rejection for contrast, I was talking about the contrast of "I had one type of happiness, it didn't work out for a variety of reasons..."  and how that can actually make you appreciate the kinds of happiness that come afterward in way that gives them more focus, or clarity.   Yeah, I think clarity is actually the right word for that.  The contrast provides emotional clarity. 

That the contrast of a loss, unhappiness, missed opportunity, hell, even grief can make returning happiness better by contrast.  Or if not better, somehow a tiny bit more precious.   I am officially into cheesy 70s song lyric territory in trying  to do the whole "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" deal but that's not actually what I mean.  I mean "the next time you have something, sometimes when detailing how happy you are with it, one of the ways it comes into better focus is to have that contrast to loss....of anything that was emotionally important to you..." .   All very emo stuff, and all that but truly, since I'm really struggling with finding the right words here, I'll circle back to the narrative (how refreshing, right?)  to make my point:  

When Sebastian sees Mia, clearly there is a sting, the what-might-have-been chorus sings/plays/dances across screen as he thinks back to their time together.  She stops and gives him that look before turning to give him something I don't think either really fully achieved before that moment: closure.   Mia knows that Sebastian really was the person who encouraged her to believe in herself, to write a play instead of showing up to be the central-casting-sent-me redhead, that the life she has now was brought to her chiefly through her own talents but also, by that crucial, "when I gave up on myself, you didn't".  

There's a movie poster for a movie called Eleanor Rigby (okey dokey) with Mia's face on it, on the corner of the building right next to Seb's club, the camera pans past it.  Chances are good that Seb has been seeing her face there, other places too if there's a marketing campaign for something she's in.  

Unlike Mia, who forged ahead after a swift kick to the backside at a key time, Sebastian can't have been unaware of her progress.  Her life, her success, where that "I sat in front of a NV suburb blaring my gas-guzzlers horn and risking suburban police arrest" gesture helped get her:  he has to know that all.   He might not know it to the "and she married Standard Issue Charisma Good Guy and had a cute little baby" extent but the camera pans past her face on the building by his jazz club for a reason and it isn't just to show us "she's successful"  Warner Brothers Barista Worship has already conveyed that.  It's got to be a visual reminder of the fact that he's known all along what became of her because the world did too.  He knows what driving (gas-guzzling) convertibles through the desert eventually yielded.  
 

Thanks for this beautiful post -- and exploration of Mia and Seb's situations. I especially loved your thoughts on the differing kinds of happiness. And  -- weirdly -- that was what I loved about the film. So many movies seem to equate happiness with love. But "La La Land" does give us a happy ending that is -- for me -- ultimately satisfying but bittersweet, satisfying all quadrants of my romcom brain.

When you talk about Seb's moment of clarity -- when he sees Mia in the end, triggering that gorgeous final fantasy -- I love the idea that you note here -- that he finally achieves closure. I agree with that. I thought that was very apparent in a lot of ways. You're so right about the closure, and I think it's so vital to the scene! It's everything the movie is leading up to -- I think Mia -- we see through her happy life, child, success -- is happy. Then she sees Seb -- they regard each other in a moment that stretches to limitlessness. And only at the end, after his beautiful dream dies in his mind -- does Seb accept the reality. Mia is gone. But she loves him and he loves her and it's all okay. Even if it's not perfect. Because that's life.

And thank you for spotlighting the movie's emphasis on how each -- Mia and Seb -- contribute to and inspire each other. I wasn't quite as fair to Mia's effect on Seb as on the reverse, but you're right -- it's reciprocal and vital. I did love the scene where Seb passes teh ginormous movie poster for Mia's movie and he does not pause at all, but we know he saw it. Which means, he sees it every day. Which means, he knows exactly how she's doing. And (I believe) wishes her well. And you're right -- that had to both fulfill him -- and to inspire him to his current success. 

And it's lovely. He knows that she is the person primarily responsible for that because -- yes, she is talented but so are a lot of people - -but, personally, he saved her from giving up...and that is probably what also saved him from giving up.  

I love this idea and hadn't really considered it before you wrote this -- that both of them got something equal from their relationship (I think I'd assumed it was weighted heavily for Mia, but you're right). But it's true. And I'm so in love with the idea of the film -- that it's not as important that they work out as a couple, as that they inspire and push each other to creative success! So... I know this is gonna sound weird, but one of the few film moments in which I have ever felt this exact emotion previously, was in "Music & Lyrics," a charming & vastly underrated little comedy (great performances, sharp writing, gorgeous songwriting by Adam Schlesinger, of Fountains of Wayne and "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend"). I didn't care if they fell in love or stayed in love. I just wanted to be sure the two of them would keep WORKING together by the end. It's a wonderful and decadent feeling as a writer to feel that emotion watching a movie.

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He apparently just doesn't even go and see the people who are still trying to make it, he was going to see the people who had also made their bargains in life with practicality. Reminded me Seb's objections to Legend's vision (one of the more memorable songs in the movie and actually a lot of fun, I thought) of jazz.  I'm assuming Infiniti Finance Guy 482 wanted to see performances of the stuff that also helped him dream.

Your car finance guy really does sound weirdly fascinating. And I loved that you had such an impact on him and his marriage! I don't feel quite as negatively about U2, but it's a fascinating glimpse of the compromises we make as artists (and people), little by little by little.

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In terms of the story:  Mia's face on the building.  The name of the club.  The design of the concept.   The location. He didn't just help Mia take the chance again, she helped him right back.  I thought that's what the "Wow, he has to see her face pretty much every day right now and then, also, that would imply that since he's in LA he has seen her on billboards, etc.  for most of that time.

I really hadn't considered this in precisely the way you put it, and I really love the idea, as I mentioned earlier. It provides a much-needed feeling of symmetry for me to the ending.

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the thing I completely forgot to mention that I thought was a nice bit of emotionally deft writing:  Mia ends up at Sebastian's club with her husband because they both decide it's okay to miss a friend's play. "We can just see it in New York" said a lot about where they all are in life (friend won't be upset because he/she is in something that/wrote something successful enough to be on a national tour) but also...missing plays has been a big catalyst for both characters.   It was a very softly played call back that I enjoyed. 

Nice catch! I had actually missed that, and it's a very clever nod to key moments in the story.

[paramitch]

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Wasn't it Mia's dream sequence?  It came across that way to me, and reviews seem to agree.  So it's Mia envisioning how different life could have been if only Seb had made different choices?  Or somehow she's intuiting that he's imagining this because he plays that non-jazz "theme song"? 

I thought it was pretty clearly Seb's dream sequence. It's all shown from Seb's point of view, starts and ends on his face, and covers every major moment in the story that he wanted to take back. Each major scene within the dream is also from Seb's POV -- the walk to Mia in the restaurant (where he kisses her instead of brushing past her), etc.

And I just think the dream sequence doesn't work if it's about Mia wishing he'd been a nicer or different guy, for instance. It's much more impactful if it's about Seb and his own regrets, and that's definitely how it's always come across to me. It shows how much Seb has grown in the course of the story.

And last but not least, cinematically it's a subtle nod to both An American in Paris (Gene Kelly's final extended dance sequence) and to Casablanca (and Rick's final glimpse of Ilsa), where the male heroes, like Seb, similarly have a bittersweet moment of wishing things had gone differently. 

[arc]

Someone actually put together the "So Long Boulder City" show Mia wrote and produced and starred in: http://variety.com/2017/legit/reviews/so-long-boulder-city-review-la-la-land-jimmy-fowlie-1202503169/ . I'm so mad that by the time I heard about it it was sold out. (Twice over! They added more dates and those were sold out too before I ever heard about it.)

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 4:13 PM, paramitch said:

I thought it was pretty clearly Seb's dream sequence.

Chazelle reportedly said at a screening that it was Mia's fantasy.  I read it as beginning and ending on Mia's face, and the sequence substituted Seb for Mia's husband in scenes that Seb could not have known occurred (leaving their child with a baby-sitter, driving and walking to the club -- both of which we'd just seen Mia do with her actual husband).

[paramitch]

On 8/7/2017 at 7:31 AM, Inquisitionist said:

Chazelle reportedly said at a screening that it was Mia's fantasy.  I read it as beginning and ending on Mia's face, and the sequence substituted Seb for Mia's husband in scenes that Seb could not have known occurred (leaving their child with a baby-sitter, driving and walking to the club -- both of which we'd just seen Mia do with her actual husband).

It 's a totally intriguing option, but for me, I can't headcanon it. It would lessen the film for me in innumerable ways. I do like that it can be interpreted differently, however.

[walnutqueen]

10 seconds in and I'm already hating on this movie.  Nowhere to go but up from here, one would surmise.  But one could be wrong.

[Macbeth]

On 9/17/2017 at 1:42 AM, walnutqueen said:

10 seconds in and I'm already hating on this movie.  Nowhere to go but up from here, one would surmise.  But one could be wrong.

I love musicals but this is a no.  It couldn't keep my attention.  Also - it has my biggest pet peeve of all time - hiring actors who are not singers or dancers to star in musicals.  No.

I don't care if Ryan and Emma are passable singers - high school musicals are filled with passable singers.  A multi million dollar movie should have the real thing.

Movies in the 30s-50s would just have great musical moments even in the oddest places.  I am a huge Abbott Costello fan and their movies had plenty of singing with really good singers.  They had the Andrew Sisters.  Ella Fitzgerald's first movie role was in a film of theirs called Ride Em Cowboy.  I shit you not.  She sang  A-Tisket, A-Tasket.  And of course she was amazing. 

Are you kidding me with this La La crap.

Here's the real thing:  Ella Fitzgerald killing it in Abbott Costello film.  Lou has a small cameo towards the end of  the song.

https://youtu.be/ErmlShMkuK4

[msrachelj]

just "watched" this (lots of fast forwarding) and it sucked. so much hype for a really crappy movie. it was even worse than i thought! 

[cpcathy]

It's been on HBO, and I've watched a couple of the scenes, and wow, it already does not hold up. It's not about anything--making it in Hollywood is hard? I don't know! I still contend Emma only got the Oscar because she's cute and likeable, not because the part was so great.

[jah1986]

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

It's been on HBO, and I've watched a couple of the scenes, and wow, it already does not hold up. It's not about anything--making it in Hollywood is hard? I don't know! I still contend Emma only got the Oscar because she's cute and likeable, not because the part was so great.

I like Emma Stone in general, but after watching this movie I was baffled as to why she won an Oscar.   Sometimes you go to a movie and you just know a person is at least going to get nominated, if not win, for their performance. This was not one of those times.  Who was her competition?

[GreekGeek]

2 hours ago, jah1986 said:

I like Emma Stone in general, but after watching this movie I was baffled as to why she won an Oscar.   Sometimes you go to a movie and you just know a person is at least going to get nominated, if not win, for their performance. This was not one of those times.  Who was her competition?

Isabelle Huppert in Elle, Ruth Negga in Loving, Natalie Portman in Jackie, and Meryl Streep in Florence Foster Jenkins. Huppert and Negga may have been wonderful, but their movies were too little seen. Streep--already honored for better work. Portman was the only other serious contender, but she didn't campaign for the Oscar and her role was relatively low-key except for one ugly-crying scene.

[GaT]

I just watched this & I was completely underwhelmed. What was all the fuss about? Movies wth singing & dancing is right up my alley, but this was just boring.

On 9/22/2017 at 10:56 AM, jah1986 said:

I like Emma Stone in general, but after watching this movie I was baffled as to why she won an Oscar.   Sometimes you go to a movie and you just know a person is at least going to get nominated, if not win, for their performance. This was not one of those times.  Who was her competition?

I didn't get it either, I didn't see anything special.

[Inquisitionist]

I thought Stone did a lovely job of breathing life into a thinly written character.  But the hype and "It girl of the moment" factor helped, too.

[Hanahope]

On 9/24/2017 at 5:00 AM, Inquisitionist said:

I thought Stone did a lovely job of breathing life into a thinly written character.  But the hype and "It girl of the moment" factor helped, too.

I have to agree.  The part was pretty thin, but Stone has a very expressive face and it was easy to see the range of emotions on her face.  I think to the scene where she's watching Ryan at the concert playing keyboards with John Legend.  She goes from being very happy and excited for him, to really wondering, confused and curious as to what the hell he's doing with this band, doesn't he realize that this is so not what he said he wanted to do, is he really happy doing this?

I agree that it seemed that none of the nominated actresses/parts were as good as in the past.  Why not Taraj Henderson for Hidden Figures?

[CaughtOnTape]

My God this movie sucked.  I love me some Emma Stone but oh my god....couldn't even make it an hour.  So bad.

[Silver Raven]

On 9/20/2017 at 7:47 PM, Macbeth said:

hiring actors who are not singers or dancers to star in musicals.  No.

Ryan Gosling got his start singing and dancing on the Mickey Mouse Club.

[Browncoat]

I'm watching it again on my free HBO weekend, and I still love it. 

[Ohwell]

I'm getting free HBO this weekend as well, but I wouldn't even watch this dreck again for free.

[mojoween]

I pay for HBO and recorded it when it premiered but sports get in the way so I finally watched it yesterday.

It's cute. It passed the time on a rainy Saturday.  I don't find anything groundbreaking about it but can see why Hollywood people who love Hollywood would have bestowed so many honors on it last season.

I've always loved Ryan Gosling (and he is by far the better-looking in the Gosling-Reynolds debate) and if his charm could be bottled and sold this world would be a better place.

Emma, eh.  I find her to be so much of an "every-girl" that it actually comes off as too try-hard for me. I couldn't imagine Emma Watson doing it, though.

And I'm sure that I am crazy, but Mia's audition song sounded like "Rainbow Connection."

[Inquisitionist]

31 minutes ago, mojoween said:

And I'm sure that I am crazy, but Mia's audition song sounded like "Rainbow Connection."

Ha!  I thought it sounded a bit familiar.