S04.E07: For Better Or Worse

[ethalfrida]

In my Logical Thinking class we read one of the saddest stories on relationships ever. 

A woman lived alone and of course she had a cat. Each day and evening she went about her regular routines preparing her meals and teas, choosing just the right piece of china for each setting. One day she met a man and they developed a relationship with him eventually asking for her hand. Just as they were near to taking the vows she changed her mind. Why? Because she did not want to share her life's routine with him forever. The story ended with her sipping her tea from just the right china cup while nibbling on the perfect cookie.

We were to offer a conclusion to what was really going on with her. I wrote that she was selfish. My instructor noted on my paper that just because she didn't want to change her preferences why would that be selfish. I received a C but he changed it later that week to an A. Because I didn't say she was wrong for her feelings but merely that she was selfish, which was honest and true to herself. 

[Enero]

Could Nick and Sonia be on more separate pages? He thinks the marriage is an 8 and she thinks it's a 5. Wow. Lol. 

So Nick can tell MAFS about his aunt's death, but he can't tell Sonia? Ooook.  I could totally understand Sonia's comment about Nick going from 0-60. Seeing his response to her trying to get him to open up makes me think he's never really had a relationship before. Honestly the way he's coming off I can totally see why he's had trouble finding a wife. 

All that said, both are horrible communicators. When Nick says something completely ridiculous Sonia shuts down and walks away. She should've said to him what she said in her confessional i.e. 'I didn't say I was in love with you I was just trying to get you to open up'. Also, she was unable to give an example of how she wanted him to open up. Why not mention how he never told her about his aunt's death or something less heavy like his favorite color or why he got into real estate. His ridiculous response to her attempt to get him to open up could be due to him thinking her idea of opening up means him expressing his "feelings" for her. I think that is part of Sonia's desire but I also think she feels as if she knows very little about Nick the man. Nick doesn't think before he opens his mouth. He just blurts out whatever comes to mind. He says he thinks Sonia is beautiful and sexy, and he may really think this, but even if he thinks she's an attractive woman, he's not attracted to her. The boob "incident" said it all. I mean what man who was attracted to a woman not kill for a chance to have his hand lay so close to her boob? He would be respectful of course, but he certainly wouldn't be acting like a 12 year old who just got kissed on the cheek by grandma. 

As I've said before I think they'll make descent acquaintances, nothing more. 

I really don't see Lily and Tom making it. I think the rose is already starting to loose it's bloom. I get what Dr. Pepper and Lily's sister was saying about not pushing too fast.  However, children are a big deal. Either you want them or you don't. That's something that CAN be a deal breaker in a marriage especially if one party really wants kids and the other doesn't. If Tom really doesn't see himself going there, which I don't think he does, Lily shouldn't have to wait until they're years into the marriage to find out. 

I'm over Derek and Heather. Why are we still seeing them? Actually the entire show is turning into a dud. It was intriguing at first, but now I'm starting to get bored, mainly due the obvious staging of a lot of the drama and scenes. 

[henrysmom]

Quote

The only one who looks happy is the little girl.

You know things are bad when even Sonia can't summon up a smile.

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, Enero said:

So Nick can tell MAFS about his aunt's death, but he can't tell Sonia? Ooook.  I could totally understand Sonia's comment about Nick going from 0-60. Seeing his response to her trying to get him to open up makes me think he's never really had a relationship before. Honestly the way he's coming off I can totally see why he's had trouble finding a wife. 

Nick is the guy who ends up in the friend zone because he thinks lingering and hanging around will get him a date.  Only asking for a date gets you a date.  In his mind, he's getting to know her better and getting comfortable with her before doing anything because it takes him a longer time to get comfortable enough - he wants to solidify a friendship first.  In her mind, she's concerned he doesn't find her attractive because he's not eager to make any moves, so it doesn't matter if they have a friendship if he's not attracted.  Nick cannot bring himself to ask for a date (i.e, complimenting, talking, touching) before he is ready, so he will get friend-zoned (here, divorced) because he never makes a move. 

I don't know where or how he developed his dating dynamics, but what he's doing never, ever works with girls who expect guys to make the first moves.

Edited September 7, 2016 by izabella

[Vinyasa]

What did Tom say about little kids vs 7/8 year olds?

I swear he said the little kids were axxholes-anyone catch that?

Quote

 Actually the entire show is turning into a dud. It was intriguing at first, but now I'm starting to get bored, mainly due the obvious staging of a lot of the drama and scenes. 

Oh, it is boring. The cliffhanger was added so we all didn't turn off our TVs last night.  Don't make me miss Sean and Davina. There really isn't much to snark on this season. Feels as if it is in slow motion!

[LennieBriscoe]

Not so quick to label; been watching the entire series. Funny, people are quick to label Derek as a pot-smoker, with zero evidence. Whereas Nick towards Sonia......First I thought "physical appearance." Then I thought "the dogs." The whole "He's just not that into you" book. Now, after Nick's contortion not to place his hand remotely close to Sonia's heart, heh, PLUS one of his rare vocalizations about it, in a total "the thought of it turns me off" manner instead of an "I really want to, Baby, but I'll be a gentleman on camera" tone, well, I'll draw my conclusions as freely as others do theirs!

And people go on TV for many reasons, do they not? There has been speculation by some here that Nick wanted the free publicity for business purposes.

These six agreed to be MARRIED! If he or she is "too shy" or "into themselves" or "living to their own standards"---Since when did anyone's "standards" ever include the premise of "MAFS"?!

Edited September 7, 2016 by LennieBriscoe

[izabella]

Just now, LennieBriscoe said:

And people go on TV for many reasons, do they not? There has been speculation by some here that Nick wanted the free publicity for business purposes.

I always laugh when I see that posted here because I have not ever, not once, noticed the t-shirts everyone is so up in arms about.  I even try to remember to look at his t-shirts, but he's never actually wearing one when I'm trying to notice it.  If he's here to promote something, it's been entirely lost on me!

[RachelC]

I wonder what subjects they just didn't raise at all, with these matches.

You have a dog lover paired with somebody who is terrified of dogs.    She probably feels like she's been thrown in with a pack of wolves.  He's clearly oblivious.

You have somebody who does not want to be around smoking.  I get that.  I haven't smoked for decades and that would be a deal-breaker.   I haven't read all the spoiler press stuff, but do know about the mention of smoking weed from earlier on, so I don't know if it's that or if he's smoking cigarettes and she doesn't want to be around that.     Either way - you have a smoker (of some sort) paired with somebody who hates smoking.

Lillian seems so mega-clingy to me, but then so does he so I guess if it suits them both - go for it.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen this episode because my Tivo recorded something else in that slot.  But I wanted to read and just catch up this way.  So if they are starting to have problems it might partially be because they just jumped in too quickly and intensely.   I'm intrigued by the 'he might want to have kids some day' and she has a clear cut schedule.  That would seem like pretty deal-breaker kind of thing that you would want to match up better.

Edited September 7, 2016 by RachelC

[Empress1]

7 minutes ago, Vinyasa said:

What did Tom say about little kids vs 7/8 year olds?

I swear he said the little kids were axxholes-anyone catch that?

He did. He also said that he was more comfortable with kids ages 6 and up than he is with little kids. I get that - I don't care for infants (I find them boring), but I love kids once they get to be toddlers.

I don't think two weeks is a long time to wait for sex - I don't even consider that waiting, to be honest. But I do think you should have a sense that the guy you've been seeing (leaving aside this "experiment" for the time being) is physically attracted to you by then. Sonia has said many times that she doesn't know if Nick finds her attractive, and he really should have thrown some signs that way by now. They don't even have to be physical. He said in a talking head that he thinks she's beautiful - has he told her that? A better communicator would say expressly that he's attracted to her but wants to take things slow. But leaving her completely in the dark about whether or not he finds her attractive seems unfair.

Nick saying he wanted to be married because it's time is a red flag, although it happens more often than people admit. I know a number of people who married because they were at the age they felt like they should get married, not necessarily because they were with the person they knew they wanted to marry.

[jamblastx]

Nick Sheldon Cooper/ Sonia? - Horrific communicators...I don't believe for a second that Sonia once said to either the MAFS pre screening or Nick that she is 'deathly afraid of dogs' and underplayed that fear completely and is now expecting Nick to figure it out.  If she did state to MAFS prior to being matched that she has this fear as strong as she odes, then in it inexcusable for them to have her paired up with a dog owner.  Nick is a robot...I understand about being quiet, shy and reserved but not telling Sonia about his aunt recently passing away is just odd.  And yes, she absolutely (as usual) overacted about the 'love' comment that he made even though it was an odd comment to make to begin with

Tom Kramden/ Lily Not Getting Any Younger at 24 for Babies - So what DOES Tom what in a family?  I never heard such wishy washy flip flopping regarding whether or not he wants kids.  I get the fact that a strict timetable is silly considering the situation however being able to enter a marriage you should at least be able to say 'yes I want kids' or 'no I don't'. And while she was being a little bit of a nag regarding this, I don't find her at fault to at least wanting know if he does or does not want to have kids and after a two week TV show marriage if he says no he doesn't, yeah there is NOTHING wrong about that being a 'deal breaker' for her.  And jeez Lily....stand up for yourself a little and when you make a halfway decent point, don't let dirtfoot convince you that 'well I am just a girl and we are all a little crazy hee hee hee'.  Ugh

Tenacious D/Heathers - Oh my god can they drag this out any more?!  Don't you get the feeling that the other two couples were on day 14 in the stuff they showed in the episode and these two were on day 6 because MAFS was dragging this drama out?  Even if by some miracle they decide to stay married there is still a ZERO percent chance that they stay married at the end of the six weeks.  Even if Derek is not smoking weed and its cigarettes that started this whole mess, it's not as if he stated 'you know what, it is a bad habit and bad for my health so I should quit'....he was stating 'I stopped smoking after that when we were there'  He didn't quit...he stopped. And we all know that he lit up whatever he is smoking the minute he got home.  At least Doug in the first season acknowledged that he should quit which is like what 95% of all tobacco smokers around that age feel (but are not necessarily able to do).  I am sure that the percentage of pot smokers at age 35 feel as if they need to quit is MUCH less.  And its referred to as a lifestyle....when is tobacco ever been referred to as a lifestyle?  And what about Derek claiming to the pastor that he didn't hear back from Heather when in the talking head he stated that she did text him something brief.  he is playing this victim angle and is not taking on any responsibility as to why she had been turned off.  On the honeymoon she pointed out things she did not like but was never rude and sure maybe he felt hurt and even after he presented a somewhat calm and logical argument he quickly turned nasty.  THAT is where she was done and especially because it was on more than one occasion. 

Edited September 8, 2016 by jamblastx

[Neurochick]

54 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

In my Logical Thinking class we read one of the saddest stories on relationships ever. 

A woman lived alone and of course she had a cat. Each day and evening she went about her regular routines preparing her meals and teas, choosing just the right piece of china for each setting. One day she met a man and they developed a relationship with him eventually asking for her hand. Just as they were near to taking the vows she changed her mind. Why? Because she did not want to share her life's routine with him forever. The story ended with her sipping her tea from just the right china cup while nibbling on the perfect cookie.

We were to offer a conclusion to what was really going on with her. I wrote that she was selfish. My instructor noted on my paper that just because she didn't want to change her preferences why would that be selfish. I received a C but he changed it later that week to an A. Because I didn't say she was wrong for her feelings but merely that she was selfish, which was honest and true to herself. 

Interesting.

Maybe she liked her life the way it was and didn't want to give it up.  I have a friend who is married.  When she met her husband, decades ago, she gave up her co op apartment.  Whenever I talk to her, she mentions how much she loved that apartment, how she wishes she was still there and how much she hates her home.  To me THAT is sad because, according to her, she was the most happiest in that apartment and she's been mourning it for decades. 

[Vinyasa]

Quote

Sonia has said many times that she doesn't know if Nick finds her attractive, and he really should have thrown some signs that way by now. They don't even have to be physical. He said in a talking head that he thinks she's beautiful - has he told her that? A better communicator would say expressly that he's attracted to her but wants to take things slow. But leaving her completely in the dark about whether or not he finds her attractive seems unfair.

I'm going to flip the script here a little.

Has Sonia expressed to Nick that she finds him attractive? Seems she has only told him she likes his humor.

Is she just waiting for him to make a move? I know he said he is taking things slow but maybe she needs to give the guy some confidence or a reason to make a move. Right now, they are coming close to being Craigslist roommates.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Vinyasa

[Snarklepuss]

50 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I don't think two weeks is a long time to wait for sex - I don't even consider that waiting, to be honest. But I do think you should have a sense that the guy you've been seeing (leaving aside this "experiment" for the time being) is physically attracted to you by then. Sonia has said many times that she doesn't know if Nick finds her attractive, and he really should have thrown some signs that way by now. They don't even have to be physical. He said in a talking head that he thinks she's beautiful - has he told her that? A better communicator would say expressly that he's attracted to her but wants to take things slow. But leaving her completely in the dark about whether or not he finds her attractive seems unfair.

I agree, Nick should have shown her he finds her attractive in one way or another.  Body language speaks volumes even if someone is a poor verbal communicator.

Then again, sort of like you're saying, even though he said he finds her beautiful in his talking head it doesn't mean he wants to have sex with her.  Even if he says he finds her attractive it STILL doesn't mean he wants to have sex with her.  I mean, I'm a hetero woman and I think Sonia is beautiful, attractive, sexy and all that, but I would never want to be more than platonic friends with her.  So even if Nick said all that it wouldn't necessarily mean he wants a sexual relationship with her.  Normally if a guy says those things about a woman it WOULD mean that, but I think we're all realizing that there's something not quite average about Nick in one way or another.  I'm not saying he's necessarily gay, but it could be that or other issues that are keeping him from wanting a sexual relationship with her.  Who knows, he could have a secret kink that he only wants to have sex with a woman if she's dressed up as a dominatrix or something different like that.  I actually knew a man like that once who was into BDSM.  Nick's keeping a secret, that's still my bet.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Snarklepuss
Grammar.

[Enero]

2 minutes ago, Vinyasa said:

I'm going to flip the script here a little.

Has Sonia expressed to Nick that she finds him attractive? Seems she has only told him she likes his humor.

Is she just waiting for him to make a move? I know he said he is taking things slow but maybe she needs to give the guy some confidence or a reason to make a move.

Good point. But would Nick even care? I think her not running away when seeing him at the alter, his biggest fear, was enough for him. Since he's not into giving compliments I'd think he'd not be big on receiving them, but I could be wrong. 

I honestly think Nick hasn't made a move because he doesn't want to. He's not attracted to Sonia because he's gay, she's not the type of woman he's usually attracted to or he's completely inexperienced. I'm kind of thinking it could be a combination of all three. Lol

[ethalfrida]

7 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

Interesting.

Maybe she liked her life the way it was and didn't want to give it up.  I have a friend who is married.  When she met her husband, decades ago, she gave up her co op apartment.  Whenever I talk to her, she mentions how much she loved that apartment, how she wishes she was still there and how much she hates her home.  To me THAT is sad because, according to her, she was the most happiest in that apartment and she's been mourning it for decades. 

Yes, of course, you are right because clearly she preferred her solitary lifestyle to married and companionship. 

So, why did your friend stay in a relationship that made her mourn her happy time?

[humbleopinion]

Sonia missed a "fish or cut bait" moment.

She should have grabbed Nick's hand and cupped it under her breast.

If his dick twitched then she has something to build a future on.

If no response below the Mason Dixon line if you get my drift then she may as well start packing.

[ethalfrida]

1 minute ago, humbleopinion said:

Sonia missed a "fish or cut bait" moment.

She should have grabbed Nick's hand and cupped it under her breast.

If his dick twitched then she has something to build a future on.

If no response below the Mason Dixon line if you get my drift then she may as well start packing.

Well, fellow poster, there is no doubt on what you mean! It would be hilarious to have you for a commentator on the show! You need to be an advisor.

[Snewtsie]

I think Lily is SMART to discuss kids with her husband- repeat: HUSBAND.  Hell yes she should get a read on whether or not he wants kids down the road!!  This is something people usually know about themselves regardless of who they are partnered up with at the time.  

Why did Dr Pepper minimize that by telling ler Tom is a basically a stranger???!!  No he is not, Dr. Pepper.  Thanks to you Tom is her freakin' HUSBAND now, and she has every right to press him about how he envisions his future. 

I was married for 10 years to a guy just like Tom.  Bottom line, when someone hesitates about wanting kids in the future, it usually means they don't.

[Jack Sampson]

1 minute ago, Snewtsie said:

I think Lily is SMART to discuss kids with her husband- repeat: HUSBAND.  Hell yes she should get a read on whether or not he wants kids down the road!!  This is something people usually know about themselves regardless of who they are partnered up with at the time.  

Why did Dr Pepper minimize that by telling ler Tom is a basically a stranger???!!  No he is not, Dr. Pepper.  Thanks to you Tom is her freakin' HUSBAND now, and she has every right to press him about how he envisions his future. 

I was married for 10 years to a guy just like Tom.  Bottom line, when someone hesitates about wanting kids in the future, it usually means they don't.

This is the same girl who thought it was weird to cook for a stranger last week.  She doesn't need to rush to baby plans.  I like Lily the best this season, she seems sincere.

[Neurochick]

3 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

So, why did your friend stay in a relationship that made her mourn her happy time?

Because she loves the man and now they've had history; but as the years pass, she gets more an more depressed about the life she gave up.  That what happens sometimes; it's all good in the beginning and then you start thinking and say, "shit, what the hell did I do?"

But the question in your logical thinking class is this, why does it have to be either or?  You can be in a relationship with someone, but you don't have to live with them. 

[brilliantbreakfast]

I think Lily is SMART to discuss kids with her husband- repeat: HUSBAND.  Hell yes she should get a read on whether or not he wants kids down the road!!  This is something people usually know about themselves regardless of who they are partnered up with at the time.  

Why did Dr Pepper minimize that by telling ler Tom is a basically a stranger???!!  No he is not, Dr. Pepper.  Thanks to you Tom is her freakin' HUSBAND now, and she has every right to press him about how he envisions his future. 

I was married for 10 years to a guy just like Tom.  Bottom line, when someone hesitates about wanting kids in the future, it usually means they don't.

Many years ago, I went on a personal ad date with a guy who was 6'5" tall. I was 4'10". He made it very clear that while I was a nice person, the height difference was preposterous, and I agreed, whereupon we proceeded to have a pleasant dinner and then parted ways. But since he was no longer a "prospect", we were able to speak pretty freely, and I told him about the guy I'd had 2 breakups and reconciliations with because he was never ready to get married. And this very tall man gave me a good piece of advice that I have never forgotten: When a man says he doesn't want to get married, believe him. And the corollary to this is "When a man says he doesn't want children, or isn't sure he wants children, believe him." What I want to know is why on earth these "experts" don't match people based on the very real issues we're seeing here: Blingy Lily and Live On a Bus Tom? Nurturing Lily with I Just Want To Surf Tom? Heather I Don't Like Smoking with Derek Smokes All The Time? Nick the Automaton with Emotional Hairtrigger Sonia? Let's not even get into the dogs.

These "experts" are doing this deliberately -- creating these trainwrecks out of people who just want to find someone to spend their lives with -- all for the cameras. It's sick, sick, sick, and every week I hate myself for watching.

[ethalfrida]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

 

But the question in your logical thinking class is this, why does it have to be either or?  You can be in a relationship with someone, but you don't have to live with them. 

The question was "what was really going on with her." 

[Snarklepuss]

1 minute ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

Many years ago, I went on a personal ad date with a guy who was 6'5" tall. I was 4'10". He made it very clear that while I was a nice person, the height difference was preposterous, and I agreed, whereupon we proceeded to have a pleasant dinner and then parted ways. But since he was no longer a "prospect", we were able to speak pretty freely, and I told him about the guy I'd had 2 breakups and reconciliations with because he was never ready to get married. And this very tall man gave me a good piece of advice that I have never forgotten: When a man says he doesn't want to get married, believe him. And the corollary to this is "When a man says he doesn't want children, or isn't sure he wants children, believe him." What I want to know is why on earth these "experts" don't match people based on the very real issues we're seeing here: Blingy Lily and Live On a Bus Tom? Nurturing Lily with I Just Want To Surf Tom? Heather I Don't Like Smoking with Derek Smokes All The Time? Nick the Automaton with Emotional Hairtrigger Sonia? Let's not even get into the dogs.

I agree with you, good insight, but after I learned this lesson in life I learned the next one - that when a man says he doesn't want to get married, it may not be that he doesn't want to get married, just that he doesn't want to get married to YOU.  Same goes for kids.  Someone else said upthread that they thought Tom might be open to having kids, but sketchy about having them with HER.  Could be!

[Snewtsie]

I can barely watch Sonia & Nick.  He is a robot & she is terrified of everything, not just dogs.  She is terrified of words said & words unsaid.  She always appears scared about what's going on around her.  Maybe that's because she feels so rejected by his lack of interest.

Personally I think she should start prancing around in sexy outfits & high heels, hand feed him lobster, and get him a little drunk... Or help him wash the dogs wearing a see-thru t-shirt & daisy dukes.  

[Enero]

7 minutes ago, ethalfrida said:

The question was "what was really going on with her." 

Based on the vagueness of the story I don't think it can be deduced that it was sometime going on with her perse. There could've been other reasons why she left the guy at the alter that had nothing to do with her not wanting to share her routine. 

I've known a few people to want a husband (or wife). They finally meet someone who wants the same. On the wedding day and sometimes leading up to the wedding they realize the marriage is a huge mistake, but I've known no one to stop it. They go through with it due to the money that's been spent, family flying in, the embarrassment a cancellation will bring, but ultimately end up divorcing.

Then sometimes people really think they want to be married. They're in love with the idea, but when it happens or is about to happen they realize that marriage is not what they wanted at all. 

[Koda1969]

My thoughts (and as always, IMHO)

Derek and Heather - Ugghh...just ugh. Can we end this already? But there were two things that stuck out to me:

- The conversation regarding things - PC said "the smoking thing, then he quit, correct?" she nodded yes. Then she said "but, the surfing instructor fight, etc." Now, I don't know how spot on that conversation was, or how heavily edited, but basically it shows that she got mad about the smoking, they fought, they tried to move on then the surf instructor, cave crap happened the next day. I agree there may be something more than she (or they) aren't showing/telling us, but that bit there seems to imply what we are seeing, which is that she just decided she wasn't into him. Which, I do feel is her complete right. If that is the case, she should just say so, own it..and who cares what anyone thinks.

- But, if there is something more nefarious going on, why would her friend be offering the suggestion of taking time, thinking about things, etc.? Maybe the friend knows that Heather has a propensity (not saying she does, just speculating) to overthink, analyze and criticize and maybe that has hindered her past relationships? If it were about weed or something worse (illegal) seems to me the friend would have been "oh heck no, you need to stand up for yourself and move on!" (at least my thought). If anything, wouldn't that have made for more drama for the cameras? So, to me, it seems to imply that maybe it really is as simple as she isn't feeling it, she thinks she made a mistake?

Tom and Lily - Sigh. Just shut up both of you. Lily wants to be married, so she has rose-colored glasses on and is saying everything she thinks a "good wife" needs to say. But, making an issue of kids so early, I don't know...maybe wait and see down the road how things go. Heck, you might win the lotto and want to spend your days jetsetting and not changing dirty diapers? (just a thought) Using the term deal-breaker just sets most people on edge (it does me, anyway). It implies your way or no way. Just relax a little.

Nick and Sonia - I think both need cue cards. She knows want she wants, but she can't verbalize it completely, and Nick just can't verbalize. Can't say I blame Sonia for feeling a bit awkward. After a while, a man not even trying to get intimate has to make you wonder about your own attractiveness. If I were her, I'd just sit him down and say "look, I get that we are strangers and still getting to know each other, I get that you are weird and reserved. But, I need you to think long and hard about whether you WANT to be intimate, and if you aren't feeling it, you need to be honest with yourself and me right now!"

As for the dogs, well, I type this with my own two big dogs near me on the floor sleeping and a momma dog about five feet away with her five little two-week old babies that I bottle-feed every few hours (I work for a puppy rescue)..so yeah, I'm a dog lover. But, if someone comes to my house, I put my dogs away in their crates so that they don't jump on people or interrupt us, and my dogs are not allowed to get "physical" with anyone without their permission.

Heck, maybe Sonia really just needs to get all hard core on Nick? Not be so sweet and nice and accommodating. Instead, tell him point blank what she wants and needs?

[BunnySlippers]

9 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I agree with you, good insight, but after I learned this lesson in life I learned the next one - that when a man says he doesn't want to get married, it may not be that he doesn't want to get married, just that he doesn't want to get married to YOU.  Same goes for kids.  Someone else said upthread that they thought Tom might be open to having kids, but sketchy about having them with HER.  Could be!

I had a friend with two kids and a happy marriage who once told me that, while they were dating, her husband had told her that he didn't want to get married. She said that was fine, she didn't either. In the end, he did propose to her, and they are still together, with grandkids now. I think some men become more interested in a woman if they think she's not madly in love with them. But I agree that in general, if a man says he doesn't want to get married (to a particular person or to anybody) or doesn't want to have children, then usually that's how he'll always feel.

[ethalfrida]

2 minutes ago, Enero said:

Based on the vagueness of the story I don't think it can be deduced that it was sometime going on with her perse. There could've been other reasons why she left the guy at the alter that had nothing to do with her not wanting to share her routine. 

I've known a few people to want a husband (or wife). They finally meet someone who wants the same. On the wedding day and sometimes leading up to the wedding they realize the marriage is a huge mistake, but I've known no one to stop it. They go through with it due to the money that's been spent, family flying in, the embarrassment a cancellation will bring, but ultimately end up divorcing.

Then sometimes people really think they want to be married. They're in love with the idea, but when it happens or is about to happen they realize that marriage is not what they wanted at all. 

All the details of the story were not posted because I just wanted to make the point about her being honest in what she wanted. She certainly did leave him because she didn't want to change her routine because she said so as the story ended. So therefore you are right in that she was in love with the idea but marriage was not what she wanted at all.

[Soup333]

Tom has shark eyes and filthy feet and I couldn't. 

I'm not sure what Nick's deal is but something ain't clean in the milk. Not sure if dude is gay, bi or has some sort of social anxiety disorder but his behavior is just not normal. One thing that stood out to me is at the wedding when his mother asked him if he'd told Sonia she was beautiful and he answered yes but she knew he was lying. And his discomfort with being so close to her breasts was odd as was his language choice. Boob? Wth? I think she needs reassurance and I'm not sure she'll ever get it from him no matter how patient she is. I don't have time for that type of foolishness. Being in a relationship with someone who appears incapable of expressing affection is draining and damaging. 

 

Heather and what's his face are a waste of time. If she opts out early she's probably the smartest woman to ever go on this show. 

[film noire]

1 hour ago, Snewtsie said:

Personally I think she should start prancing around in sexy outfits & high heels, hand feed him lobster, and get him a little drunk... Or help him wash the dogs wearing a see-thru t-shirt & daisy dukes.  

But he recoils at having accidentally touched her breast. Sonia wearing a see thru t-shirt could leave him curled up in a fetal position, whimpering "But it's still only Day Seventeen..."

Edited September 7, 2016 by film noire

[psychoticstate]

Damn you, MAFS.  No reason to drag out the Heather-Derek decision session.  Just put it all out there by the end of the episode.  Look at how much flak The Walking Dead has gotten from the way they cliffhangered their last season.  Learn from it.

As much as I don't think Heather and Derek will end up together, nor should they, I had a very, very slight glimmer of . . . possibility? . . . when Derek said that he was going to talk to Heather before Pastor Calvin.  Not what was shown at all.  For me, if Heather isn't willing to talk to Derek over the phone, in person or even via text, there is ZERO hope.   I think if Heather is on the fence, that's kind of an answer right there.  

I have been unwilling to say if the smoking is cigarettes or pot to this point but after last night, I'd say it's pot solely based on Derek's terminology of saying that he stopped smoking "it."   I do get not wanting to be with a pot smoker.  I don't smoke, I don't want to be with a smoker, cigarettes or otherwise.  Without having seen 100% of the interaction between Heather and Derek, it's hard to say if it was the smoking and/or either or both of them were less than honest when speaking to the "experts."  Heather does seem to have shut down immediately.  Again, I can understand being turned off by the smoking but if she was, she should have said she wanted to be with someone who did not smoke.  I'll give Derek some props over quitting as soon as she brought up not liking it;  I just want to understand why Heather apparently had no interest or was unable to move forward and try to get to know Derek.  It has to be more than just the smoking - - again, unless she was less than honest about occasional smoking being okay.  I wonder if, since Heather has said she never expected to be chosen, she had second thoughts immediately and believed she had made a mistake and was looking for anything other than that as an excuse. 

I have no idea what Nick's deal is but I can't help but think about if the situation was reversed.  If Nick was pressing for intimacy and Sonia was hesitant, would people be saying she must be gay?  Probably not.  In fact, she would likely be getting praised for not rushing.  So I'm not going to rush to judgment that Nick is gay or conflicted or suffering with social anxiety or whatever.  We only see a portion of things and it's possible that Nick isn't super comfortable on camera.  I have seen some flashes of humor, dry humor but humor, so I get that when Sonia says she likes that about him.   Their communication skills together are horrible.  Neither feels comfortable speaking honestly to the other and that's going to sink them unless they can fix it.  Someone upthread mentioned they should be writing their feelings to each other and I agree.    The "experts" really screwed up by putting Nick with someone who wasn't an animal lover.  I don't think Sonia is terrified of dogs; she's simply not a dog person.   I loved Nick's mom and her boyfriend.  They were really awesome.

The "drama" with Lily and Tom is producer driven, I think.  I remember Tom mentioning that Lily wanted to wait 5 years to start a family and he wasn't sure he wanted to wait that long, since he is 5 years older than she is.  For a 24 year old to say she's not getting any younger is straight up ridiculous.   There is no way that wanting children wasn't on the list of questions the "experts" asked; that's why this has to be producer driven.  I think Lily and Tom are a good match and are doing well, which is great news for them but not as exciting on tv as some form of conflict.  And I do get that they have six weeks to decide so that may put things on a fast track but 2 weeks in?  No.  I also don't find it concerning that Tom might have said something like he wanted children with the right person.  Isn't that how it should be?  Far better than saying you want children and who you choose to have those children with is secondary and not as important.  

[humbleopinion]

Uncle Tommy-

My best-est friend, Milly told me you called me an a-hole on TV last night.

You are not invited to my My Little Pony Princess party anymore.

You are a big poo-poo head and a meanie.

I made you a dried pasta necklace but i just stomped it to pieces.

Your bus smells like a dirty diaper.

No more hugs or kisses for you.

Ashley

[Evil Queen]

9 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

I have no idea what Nick's deal is but I can't help but think about if the situation was reversed.  If Nick was pressing for intimacy and Sonia was hesitant, would people be saying she must be gay?  Probably not.  In fact, she would likely be getting praised for not rushing.  So I'm not going to rush to judgment that Nick is gay or conflicted or suffering with social anxiety or whatever.  We only see a portion of things and it's possible that Nick isn't super comfortable on camera.  I have seen some flashes of humor, dry humor but humor, so I get that when Sonia says she likes that about him.   Their communication skills together are horrible.  Neither feels comfortable speaking honestly to the other and that's going to sink them unless they can fix it.  Someone upthread mentioned they should be writing their feelings to each other and I agree.    The "experts" really screwed up by putting Nick with someone who wasn't an animal lover.  I don't think Sonia is terrified of dogs; she's simply not a dog person.   I loved Nick's mom and her boyfriend.  They were really awesome.

 

Actually depending on how Sonia was on many things would be telling...if those things were there that made her look as if she was a lesbian than yes I think many of us saying Nick could be would be as well with her. It has nothing to do with waiting on sex. IMO the way some jump into bed with each other so fast is not the best way to go. Nick though cringes if he has to touch Sonia though. The faces he has made after having to kiss her are not nice either. He always looks disgusted. Maybe he is bi..we all have no clue but no matter what the guy is not coming off in the best light. He rather have his dogs up on him than a pretty girl. He doesn't even cuddle with her. Cuddling can be a nice way to show some affection and that you like the person....it doesn't mean you have to have sex right then and there either. As for the dogs, Sonia told him in the last episode something about not wanting to have the dogs sleep in the bedroom. I don't remember how she put it but she did say something to Nick on that. He knew from talks they had how scared dogs made her. It was more so when they had the talk about dogs and horses. Knowing all she has told him on this he should have been respectful from the first day about it and kept the dogs off her. As well as had them settle down so they weren't all over the place to begin with. Then when it came time to sleep, kept them from the bedroom. Yet in the end its his way of making sure he doesn't have to deal with anything that might be of risk to happen (like touching her boob). 

[Gem 10]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

I doubt very much that a gay man went to dozens of auditions to land a role a television show that's entire premise is heterosexual marriages.  He spoke freely about his anxiety issues in the first episode, anxiety is a direct cause of low libido.  Maybe he's the type of guy who takes a month+ to warm up to someone and lose that initial anxiety (I've known a few) and dating hasn't worked out for him because (surprise!) the women think he's gay and take their leave after the second date.  He could be sexually inexperienced or lack confidence.  He could be perfectly fine but lose his mojo and get an anxiety spike when he's got a few cameras in his face. 

If Nick doesn't see a future with Sonia (either because he's not attracted to her at all or because he knows she won't ever be a Dog Mom and he will always be a Dog Dad) it's smarter and more respectful to not start up a physical relationship.  Future employers, possibly a future mate and his future kids will watch this show and see it.   If he really isn't feeling it, he's not going to engage in anything - and of course the show isn't going to let him tell "us" that. 

Or maybe he does see a future with Sonia, and he's trying to take it slow. 

Yes.  Everything you said in this post makes a lot of sense.

[Liberty]

Nice water pipe, (or bong or hookah) at N & S's place.  Didn't Sam Role have one of those?

[humbleopinion]

In addition to Target(shower curtain), Nick must shop at Cost world Plus and/or Pier One  where he got the Moroccan star lamps and Mexican Stamped Tin Lamps seen on the deck during the meatball dinner

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, BunnySlippers said:

I really wonder why Nick blurts out these thoughtless things about not being in love with Sonia and not wanting to take things faster when she hadn't even talked about any of that stuff with him. Is it because he keeps mulling these things over in his head, or is it because he wants to keep her at arm's length? I can understand how hurtful it is for Sonia, though. Not only because it shows lack of interest on his part, but also because it puts her in an inferior position. As if she was a love-crazed woman who needs to be cooled down.

Years ago I had something like this happen to me.  When I was separated I fell for a guy I met on a chat board.  We used to have in person gatherings on this board and I met him at one.  Everyone on the board thought we made the perfect couple, etc.  He looked and dressed a lot like Leonard from "Big Bang Theory".  He was an engineer/geologist.  Although we had a sexual relationship he still acted like Nick about a lot of things.  He gave me mixed signals and his communication skills left a lot to be desired.  When I questioned him, his answers always sounded encouraging but I always had a nagging suspicion in my gut.  He started acting more suspiciously as time went on, such as canceling dates at the last minute because of "work" and taking more frequent "business trips".  He would say things about how he was happy things were progressing at a "comfortable pace" between us but after he took me to meet his parents around Christmas and I asked him where our relationship was going, he made sure to tell me that he "wasn't in love with me if that's what I meant".  I was devastated, because I had been seeing him for just over a YEAR at that point and had been patient with his "slow pace" long enough.  Several arguments later, we broke up.  I later found out through a mutual friend that he had been cheating on me with his ex girlfriend.  She had ended things with him and moved away but he never got over her and then she moved back while I was seeing him.  He managed to win her back but just didn't bother to tell me.  Well, the mutual friend told her he was seeing the both of us behind our backs but she sloughed it off.  I was so mad when I found out I called him to tell him off and never spoke to him again.  They ended up getting married and later divorced.  I ended up reuniting with Mr. Snarklepuss and never regretting it.

The moral of this story is:  I still think Nick is hiding something.  Ex girl or boyfriend he can't get over perhaps?

[nlkm9]

oh that would be awful.....

 

Derek--smoking cigarettes is a habit, smoking pot is a "lifestyle". he is a stoner, and when he is not high, he in unpleasant and whiny, and confrontational. Terrible match. I think even Sonia may have accepted him as he is. Heather just got turned off and she cannot turn it back on, and while that may be a problem within her, i dont blame her. If youre only married a few days and someone is yelling and whining at you, thats a bad sign. terrible match for both!!

[humbleopinion]

Yes, Nick is hiding something...his dick...from Sonia.

[ciaoformeow]

20 hours ago, Paddywagon said:

Derek is still trying to convince the cameras that he's trying hard to make things work.  He said he sent a long text to Heather and she sent a short reply.  

Derek's text to Heather:

Why won't u talk 2 me?  I bet ur still thinking about the surfing instructor.  If u quit boozing I might consider quitting weed.  Well, not weed but I'm willing 2 put in the effort 2 make things work.  Maybe we can try some h8 sex.  Call me.

Heather's short reply:  

Fuck off.

The thing is, he clearly said she did NOT reply to him at all, which hurt him further. 

She clearly said she DID reply to him. 

I was really pissed, frankly, that the pastor didn't clear that up first immediately when he brought them back in together. Seems like something pretty important to let them know about - he never got your message, and that she actually didn't leave you hanging and responded. 

 

 

 

Personally, I think Heather is turned off for completely different reasons. I think she wanted to be matched with a person of color, and won't be happy with him no matter what he does/says because she really wants to be with someone of a diff race. I could be wrong, totally - but that's what I get from her based on her mannerisms, etc. Btw, I'm a person of color. :) 

Edited September 8, 2016 by lilsadone

[ethalfrida]

The pastor may have cleared it up but they just didn't show it. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 9/6/2016 at 5:06 PM, Passthepopcorn said:

Both ready to be married and become parents soon too. The day that guy has a minivan with 2 or 3 kids and his beloved wife, he is in heaven :)

Nick would be good for Ashley since she likes dogs but is there so affectionate. But then, Nick doesn't have the look she likes.  Whatever that is. 

[ciaoformeow]

Also really interesting how Heathers friend was responding to her while they spoke. 

Heathers friend was saying things like are you sure "yooouuu" weren't xyz, etc. It made it obvious (to me) that this behavior is probably typical for Heather and she's probably not giving things the chance she should be, no matter her reasons. 

 

I was looking for a clip of Heather talking to her friend, but I found some extended clips for this episode. Thought I would share them here in case anyone else is interested. 

 

In this clip, Derek does say that Heather replied to him. Maybe he was too high to keep his story straight :D 

 

and then that other little show with Jaime interviewing (yawn)

[Enero]

10 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

 The moral of this story is:  I still think Nick is hiding something.  Ex girl or boyfriend he can't get over perhaps?

I don't know about this. I went back and watched the "boob" scene, God help and have a slightly different perspective on things. 

In the scene BOTH Sonia and Nick were laughing and in their talking heads stated that the chest touching was awkward. In fact, Sonia removed Nick's hand from her chest during the incident. Though Sonia says she wants more physical intimacy from Nick, perhaps it's not happening because she's not truly comfortable with him going that far. As I've said before, Nick was more affectionate with Sonia at the wedding and morning after. As soon as they had their session with Rachel and Sonia was obviously uncomfortable with the intimacy of the exercise Rachel had them do (watch Sonia's body language in that scene . She was positioning herself away from him.) and how she continued to show her discomfort in route to the honeymoon, Nick has pulled back. So...he may be waiting to get the signal that she's comfortable with more physical intimacy before making a move. 

Also, Nick said he's still trying to figure out what Sonia's definition of being more open means. When he asked her to explain she couldn't. So he was open in his way which understandably upset her.

Again, they are both horrible communicators and need to talk talk talk and listen to what the other person is saying and try to respond in a way that the other person will understand.

All that said, I still think Nick is VERY inexperienced with women. I'm kind of leaning towards the spec someone made about him being a virgin. I just remember at the wedding reception his friends were asking if he was going to try and consummate the marriage that night and Nick said I "think"  girls like to know a guy a little better before getting to that. Think being the operative word here. 

So yeah I'm inclined to believe Nick is a bit green and flying blind here. But I'm also still feeling like both he and Sonia are having difficulty being sexually attracted to each other.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Enero

[Jack Sampson]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

As soon as they had their session with Rachel and Sonia was obviously uncomfortable with the intimacy of the exercise Rachel had them do (watch Sonia's body language in that scene . She was positioning herself away from him.) and how she continued to show her discomfort in route to the honeymoon, Nick has pulled back. So...he may be waiting to get the signal that she's comfortable with more physical intimacy before making a move. 

Remember last season when everyone was saying that David should wait and let Ashley come to him?  This is what that looks like, and the dude is called gay for waiting.

Is there a scene I missed where Sonia clearly says she's ready to get more physical?  Other than THs?

Edited September 8, 2016 by Jack Sampson

[crazychicken]

On the Heather/Derek texts I took it as he sent 2 texts. On return he sent her a short 'I would like to keep trying text' she replied 'I need time', he then sent a second longer text that she never replied to. So I think that she did reply and did not reply is both true depending on which text they are talking about.

[Kareem]

4 hours ago, Koda1969 said:

My thoughts (and as always, IMHO)

Derek and Heather - Ugghh...just ugh. Can we end this already? But there were two things that stuck out to me:

- The conversation regarding things - PC said "the smoking thing, then he quit, correct?" she nodded yes. Then she said "but, the surfing instructor fight, etc." Now, I don't know how spot on that conversation was, or how heavily edited, but basically it shows that she got mad about the smoking, they fought, they tried to move on then the surf instructor, cave crap happened the next day. I agree there may be something more than she (or they) aren't showing/telling us, but that bit there seems to imply what we are seeing, which is that she just decided she wasn't into him. Which, I do feel is her complete right. If that is the case, she should just say so, own it..and who cares what anyone thinks.

- But, if there is something more nefarious going on, why would her friend be offering the suggestion of taking time, thinking about things, etc.? Maybe the friend knows that Heather has a propensity (not saying she does, just speculating) to overthink, analyze and criticize and maybe that has hindered her past relationships? If it were about weed or something worse (illegal) seems to me the friend would have been "oh heck no, you need to stand up for yourself and move on!" (at least my thought). If anything, wouldn't that have made for more drama for the cameras? So, to me, it seems to imply that maybe it really is as simple as she isn't feeling it, she thinks she made a mistake?

Tom and Lily - Sigh. Just shut up both of you. Lily wants to be married, so she has rose-colored glasses on and is saying everything she thinks a "good wife" needs to say. But, making an issue of kids so early, I don't know...maybe wait and see down the road how things go. Heck, you might win the lotto and want to spend your days jetsetting and not changing dirty diapers? (just a thought) Using the term deal-breaker just sets most people on edge (it does me, anyway). It implies your way or no way. Just relax a little.

Nick and Sonia - I think both need cue cards. She knows want she wants, but she can't verbalize it completely, and Nick just can't verbalize. Can't say I blame Sonia for feeling a bit awkward. After a while, a man not even trying to get intimate has to make you wonder about your own attractiveness. If I were her, I'd just sit him down and say "look, I get that we are strangers and still getting to know each other, I get that you are weird and reserved. But, I need you to think long and hard about whether you WANT to be intimate, and if you aren't feeling it, you need to be honest with yourself and me right now!"

As for the dogs, well, I type this with my own two big dogs near me on the floor sleeping and a momma dog about five feet away with her five little two-week old babies that I bottle-feed every few hours (I work for a puppy rescue)..so yeah, I'm a dog lover. But, if someone comes to my house, I put my dogs away in their crates so that they don't jump on people or interrupt us, and my dogs are not allowed to get "physical" with anyone without their permission.

Heck, maybe Sonia really just needs to get all hard core on Nick? Not be so sweet and nice and accommodating. Instead, tell him point blank what she wants and needs?

 I'm the third Like but I give this a 10.  

[hnygrl]

Okay people, I quit. I cannot in good conscience watch this shit show any longer.

Why?

They're playing with people's LIVES. All for ratings! It's not RIGHT!!!! 

[snip]

They match opposites on purpose. It's disgusting! She is mortally afraid of dogs? COOL! LET'S MATCH HER WITH A DUDE WHO IS HAVING A LOVE AFFAIR WITH HIS DOGS!!!! Should make GREAT TV!!!! Geeze...

She wants kids? Let's match her with a dude who hates kids.

She has ridiculously high standards? Let's match her with a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve *rubs hands together* that should be SWEET!

No.

I can't watch this any more. It breaks my heart every time I watch it. These people are legally married, some have already had sex so no annulments. These are human beings, not actors. They are playing with real live people and ruining lives along the way.

Just can't justify watching that.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Drogo
Removed AU version talk.

[zxy556575]

I agree with everyone who thought Heather's conversation with her friend was very telling. We have to believe that Heather gave her all the gory details, possible pot smoking, gambling, name-calling and all. Heather was obviously upset, depressed, and mentally exhausted, but the friend still pushed her to go forward.

It supports the theory that Heather is super picky and dumps men if they so much as burp in front of her: "You have no class!" (Well, if I recall correctly, she admitted that about herself and the experts called it out as well.)

[Magoo]

5 hours ago, Koda1969 said:

and a momma dog about five feet away with her five little two-week old babies that I bottle-feed every few hours

GIMME!!!

1 hour ago, nlkm9 said:

Derek--smoking cigarettes is a habit, smoking pot is a "lifestyle".

So true. Admittedly I didn't think about pot the first time it came up, but there has been too much skirting around on the show with the careful verbiage now, so color me convinced.  There are a lot of people I know who wouldn't mind a spouse who sparks it up occasionally or even more so, but Heather clearly isn't one of those.  That seems okay to me, everyone has their deal breakers.  I also agree with others that it's unfair of the experts and the editors continuing to make her seem inflexible and cold because they aren't allowing the truth to come out. They are so worried about their "process" and monkey science to let the cat out of the bag. It would make them look bad, so they let her look bad instead. Uncool. 

Sonia and Nick. Oy. She is so afraid of everything.  She needs a fainting couch and smelling salts within five feet of her always. That kind of nervous, panicky energy would exhaust me. Nick? I actually find him funny and endearing. He needs someone more confident and willing to communicate as directly as he does. For him, I feel like a better response would have been "You don't love me? Well slowwwww down mister, who said anything about love?" then change the dang subject. I feel like she wanted him to run after her and apologize over and over with hugs and snuggles and more. Unless they both completely change their communication skills, this is sadly another mismatch.

Tom - too much too soon, with too much regret for things said in the heat of passion on the honeymoon. He'll be backtracking for awhile, I bet.