S08.E21: Reunion Part 1

[Ki-in]

33 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

 

Just like I feel that Sonja's sourness over LuAnn and Tom's engagement has less to do with wanting a relationship with Tom and more to do with her wistfulness and melancholy about her previous relationships and how she's screwed her reputation up so badly that she can't get the kind of relationship and wealth that she longs for. I think she's slowly coming to the realization that if she wants the kind of lifestyle she used to have, she needs get her act together and do it herself.

She will never get that lifestyle while she is a hot mess and probably never again unless she can do some reputation rehab. One thing I can say for sure is that looks alone and being hot in the sack will not be enough to make a woman marriage material in those circles. I know someone who is marrying into that lifestyle and in a matter of months she's gone from Target to Neiman Marcus personal shopper and her used car to a brand new Jaguar right off the showroom floor. She has flown all over the country this summer in his private plane and has a flawless 4 carat diamond. She is a 60 something  grandmother, not a botoxed filler faced falling down drunk but has class and dignity and her fiance knows that she will not be a drunken embarrassment flashing her crotch on the dance floor. She had her own small business so I think he liked her hustle too and respected that and knew she wasn't some gold digger but a woman who didn't need man. Sonja has desperate written allover herself. I do feel bad for Sonja but she only has herself to blame. I hope she finds happiness.

[Yours Truly]

55 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

In your opinion. I've always been perplexed by all the insistence that LuAnn is some great beauty. I don't see it and I've never seen it. Nor have I  thought that she has this amazing sense of style. Beyond that, I've never thought that beauty or lack of it is something to use to demean or denigrate others.

Aside from her appearance and her bullshit title, LuAnn has lived an interesting life that is compelling enough for her to brag about it on the show. But I also think Carole and Bethenny have lived interesting lives too. In fact, I find Carole's life so interesting because she was not only creatively and professionally fulfilled, but her work as a journalist impacted people in the US and around the globe. That's something to be proud of and it's something to aspire to. Bethenny has lived an interesting life, but it's enough of a horror show that I'm not the least bit envious.

Carole and Bethenny have their own reasons to not like LuAnn that have nothing to do with looks or her ability to snag a man. Furthermore, I feel like arguments that posit that Carole and Bethenny don't like LuAnn because of jealousy over looks and men to be hilariously retrograde and frankly a bit misogynistic.

Just like I feel that Sonja's sourness over LuAnn and Tom's engagement has less to do with wanting a relationship with Tom and more to do with her wistfulness and melancholy about her previous relationships and how she's screwed her reputation up so badly that she can't get the kind of relationship and wealth that she longs for. I think she's slowly coming to the realization that if she wants the kind of lifestyle she used to have, she needs get her act together and do it herself.

I think it's more about how they resent the way Lu does represent herself. You're right both Beth and Carole have plenty of life experiences that could probably hold our attention for an hour long special but if anyone's pompous and pretentious it's those two. Or more like entitled. THEY don't think Lu should flaunt anything. They don't (or so they say, whatever) so they can't stand that Lu carries on the way she does. I think she gets carried away sometimes but nothing too major but it's more about the response she gets. I do think there is jealousy there. While Beth and Carole's approach is to try and 'understate" things about who they are and feign being humble Lu just glides in non apologetic and self appreciative as hell. That irks. Especially women like Beth and Carole who need it not to be about physical appearance or sexual appeal since neither one has either.

Believe me I've been the muted beauty in the room with other outwardly attractive and sexy women only to be overlooked because my companions were set to 10 while I chose to be a bit more delicate in my socializing and flirting. I'm not the aggressive type and I sure as hell am not fighting for anyone's attention. My friends on the other hand would pounce right away and just lay it on thick all the while I'm noticing some of those prey making eyes at me. Nothing would come of it cause dibs have been made and even though there seemed to be interest, playing musical dance buddies among girlfriends during a night out wasn't really acceptable but sometimes I used to get really frustrated cause I liked to ease into it and ya know, steal glances, observe body language, let the across the room dynamic work its thing and then let it build from there but the way my friends operated they'd drape themselves over this one or that one and wouldn't let anything organic happen so if a guy noticed me after my friend already dirty danced her scent onto him for 2 dances there really wasn't anywhere to go from there. Stakes have been claimed only for it to not go anywhere for anyone.  Wasted evening for me cause my prospects were slowly devoured by the Lu types while I sat back and hoped for a more subtle pairing based on real attraction and intent instead of hunter and prey.

I don't think it's some burning rage with Carole and Beth but I do believe it's about the resentment the wall flowers feel about the likes of a woman like Lu. (Beth's not exactly a wall flower but she's disaster so same difference) The one's that don't give anyone else a chance unless of course your a vulture too. Some women like me don't like to enter a venue ready to pounce so when you have these divas completely distracting the men with such obvious methods it's annoying. And it's a strong factor when drawing an opinion of someone else. Me personally, I've gotten over it although it still is a trait I do dislike but as I've strengthened my own game and embraced my own fabulousness I find that no matter what I am not ever completely eclipsed by other women in the room. It did take me a while to get to that place meaning a Lu will never "steal my thunder" but it really is a strong basis of dislike. People like to deny it cause it's such a petty thing but I for one see it plain as day. They resent that what they consider corny, typical, dated, desperate  and even archaic behavior still reaps Lu the reward of attention. Whether it be from the opposite sex, society, different circles, fans they hate how she gets rewarded for something they find completely unworthy of praise or positive reaction. Sure they have other relevant grievances with her but on a minor scale. The reason why these ridiculous feuds reach nuclear meltdown I promise is because of this underlying resentment they have of this particular detail.

It eats them up.... Maybe that's why they're skin and bones... LOL.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Yours Truly

[Knuckles]

1 hour ago, shoegal said:

The point is that LuAnn has branded herself The Countess, she's going to cling to that fake ass courtesy title for all she's worth,

The point is that Bethy has branded herself The Skinny Girl and she's going to cling to that brand for all she's worth...even if it means swilling chemicals in the brew and watering down the tequila. And hey, do not mention eating disorders or Adderall in her presence. But feel free to insult anyone within hearing, and make criminal accusations of drug use. Because, hey, she's The Skinny Girl.

[QuinnM]

Quote

The point is that Bethy has branded herself The Skinny Girl and she's going to cling to that brand for all she's worth

And it just keeps getting bigger and bigger.  I know the next is luggage and then after that breakfast sandwiches.  Plus this year there were something like 4 new cocktails and 2 new wines.  So no chance that brands going away anytime soon.

[Knuckles]

5 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

the insistence that LuAnn is some great beauty.

I have seen her in person, in the lobby of the coop she was renting on the Upper West Side, and yes, she is very good looking...though she is not skinny or emaciated. And yes, she has something, your eyes are drawn to her. I can see men would follow her around. That would be enough to set off a lot of resentment and jealousy in other women her age or younger.

[ZaldamoWilder]

5 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

I think it's more about how they resent the way Lu does represent herself. You're right both Beth and Carole have plenty of life experiences that could probably hold our attention for an hour long special but if anyone's pompous and pretentious it's those two. Or more like entitled. THEY don't think Lu should flaunt anything. They don't (or so they say, whatever) so they can't stand that Lu carries on the way she does. I think she gets carried away sometimes but nothing too major but it's more about the response she gets. I do think there is jealousy there. While Beth and Carole's approach is to try and 'understate" things about who they are and feign being humble Lu just glides in non apologetic and self appreciative as hell. That irks. Especially women like Beth and Carole who need it not to be a physical appearance or sexual appeal since neither one has either.

Believe me I've been the muted beauty in the room with other outwardly attractive and sexy women only to be overlooked because my companions were set to 10 while I chose to be a bit more delicate in my socializing and flirting. I'm not the aggressive type and I sure as hell am not fighting for anyone's attention. My friends on the other hand would pounce right away and just lay it on thick all the while I'm noticing some of those prey making eyes at me. Nothing would come of it cause dibs have been made and even though there seemed to be interest, playing musical dance buddies among girlfriends during a night out wasn't really acceptable but sometimes I used to get really frustrated cause I liked to ease into it and ya know, steal glances, observe body language, let the across the room dynamic work its thing and then let it build from there but the way my friends operated they'd drape themselves over this one or that one and wouldn't let anything organic happen so if a guy noticed me after my friend already dirty danced her scent onto him for 2 dances there really wasn't anywhere to go from there. Stakes have been claimed only for it to not go anywhere for anyone.  Wasted evening for me cause my prospects were slowly devoured by the Lu types while I sat back and hoped for a more subtle pairing based on real attraction and intent instead of hunter and prey.

I don't think it's some burning rage with Carole and Beth but I do believe it's about the resentment the wall flowers feel about the likes of a woman like Lu. (Beth's not exactly a wall flower but she's disaster so same difference) The one's that don't give anyone else a chance unless of course your a vulture too. Some women like me don't like to enter a venue ready to pounce so when you have these divas completely distracting the men with such obvious methods it's annoying. And it's a strong factor when drawing an opinion of someone else. Me personally, I've gotten over it although it still is a trait I do dislike but as I've strengthened my own game and embraced my own fabulousness I find that no matter what I am not ever completely eclipsed by other women in the room. It did take me a while to get to that place meaning a Lu will never "steal my thunder" but it really is a strong basis of dislike. People like to deny it cause it's such a petty thing but I for once see it plain as day. They resent that what they consider corny, typical, dated, desperate  and even archaic behavior still reaps Lu the reward of attention. Whether it be from the opposite sex, society, different circles, fans they hate how she gets rewarded for something they find completely unworthy of praise or positive reaction. Sure they have other relevant grievances with her but on a minor scale. The reason why these ridiculous feuds reach nuclear meltdown I promise is because of this underlying resentment they have of this particular detail.

It eats them up.... Maybe that's why they're skin and bones... LOL.

This entire paragraph had me legit belly jiggling! LOL!!  (I'm not laughing at you, that was just like national geographic funny).

Overall I disagree with the resentment/jealousy aspect.   From description, you're not jealous about your squad, it sounds like you'd just appreciate it if they knocked it off once in a while, because at the end of the day?  It's not that serious.   

Some of the people right here in this room straight up just can't stand Luanne, but we've never met her (guessery) so it can't be her looks or charisma ooze or lifestyle that we're *envious* of.    She's a dick.   And sometimes that's enough lol.

[zoeysmom]

4 hours ago, ryebread said:

Why did Beth declare Lu a snake in season 3?  I can't remember their issue then. Seems like, from this clip, Luann felt that Beth thought she was a skanky cheater way back then, too.  Her hatred is long lasting and deep seated.

Had to laugh at Bethenny's, "You're talking about me and I'm right here."  Well, she was right - that's not very Countessy, Lulu.  But Bethenny has done the exact same thing several times this season.  SkinnyHippo Crit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eHKIQ0GVG0

Bethenny had been making snarky comments in previous seasons about how shallow the women were for attending fashion shows.  Bethennny said she only attended two, and fashion shows were not her thing.  The two she attended annually, Pamella Rowland and Jill Stuart.  Season 3, at a second fashion show, Luann commented Bethenny had been attending fashion shows, Bethenny considered it a dig, when Luann pointed out she had seen her Ungaro.  Luann didn't call her a liar or hypocrite.  Bethenny took it as a dig.

So she pursued Luann into the runway area and went after her and that is when she called her snake.  Bethenny also felt Luann was coming in between she and Jill, who she had not spoken to all summer.  So Bethenny then said Jill was telling people that Luann sleeps around.  I think that was actually based on Ramona telling Jill Luann was a slut. 

Why Bethenny took it as a dig is kind of mystery, other than after accusing these women of being vapid and attending the shows, she was kind of caught being a little more interested in the fashion shows than she had previously indicated. 

[Ki-in]

2 minutes ago, zoeysmom said:

Bethenny had been making snarky comments in previous seasons about how shallow the women were for attending fashion shows.  Bethennny said she only attended two, and fashion shows were not her thing.  The two she attended annually, Pamella Rowland and Jill Stuart.  Season 3, at a second fashion show, Luann commented Bethenny had been attending fashion shows, Bethenny considered it a dig, when Luann pointed out she had seen her Ungaro.  Luann didn't call her a liar or hypocrite.  Bethenny took it as a dig.

So she pursued Luann into the runway area and went after her and that is when she called her snake.  Bethenny also felt Luann was coming in between she and Jill, who she had not spoken to all summer.  So Bethenny then said Jill was telling people that Luann sleeps around.  I think that was actually based on Ramona telling Jill Luann was a slut. 

Why Bethenny took it as a dig is kind of mystery, other than after accusing these women of being vapid and attending the shows, she was kind of caught being a little more interested in the fashion shows than she had previously indicated. 

Bethenny insulted the Hamptons and everyone who went there her first season.  Now which hypocrite has a house there?

[QuinnM]

Quote

Bethenny insulted the Hamptons and everyone who went there her first season.  Now which hypocrite has a house there?

That I don't remember.  She was out there making money so I don't remember her saying anything.  Well, other than her usual snark on just everyone.

[RHJunkie]

I always take issue when people generalize a dislike to somehow be related to jealously over something or another. Carole and Bethenny can have relationships with men without scraping the bottom of the barrel for it. Having men in their lives mean they do have access to being 'satisfied' as they require it. The way I see it, Bethenny and Carole have a particular issue with Luann (SkinnyGirl and the Adam thing) and they've taken that held on to it for dear life. By not completely addressing the issues at the time that it happened, the resentment grew and they took every little thing they could to add to their arsenal of 'I hate Luann...see here for all of the reasons she's a horrible human being'. In the end, they took it too far by trying to be the morality police - claiming to not care what Luann does on her own time yet taking many opportunities to talk about those very things and call her names for it. Using Luann's etiquette book as a justification to shame Luann and use it as the basis for calling her a hypocrite is like a playground attempt at trying to re-invent the English language just because to fit with your clever insults. Though just because I feel that both women have a particular incident in mind that is the real fuel behind their dislike of Luann, they've become downright petty with all of the mud they're trying to sling. Sometimes you just need to know when to stop because now both are the point where they're only serving to make themselves look foolish.

[LIMOM]

5 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

When Bethenny came on she was very scrappy and independent.  I remember her being with a group of her fathers contemporaries and her dropping Sidney Frank's name (the architect of the 2 billion dollar sale of Grey Goose to Bacardi) as someone her father knew.  So there was always a little back and forth with the privelege she enjoyed and her self proclaimed orphan.  The first season was rough, Jill and Luann had no negative issues with their family, Ramona and Bethenny had family issues (later the great excuse for Ramona's misbehavior).  So I think it is important for Bethenny to continually revisit Luann's far less affluent upbringing.  Just because one is raised in a one bathroom house for nine people, doesn't mean they aren't taught manners. 

It was Mrs. de Lesseps.  Luann cited it was the way she was brought up.

Plus in credit to Luann, she has never shied away from letting everyone knows of her modest upbringing, she is not ashamed or reinventing her beginnings.

We all know that she came from Berlin and she seems to get a kick out of her incredible destiny.

Bethanny is a damn snob and she needs to stop shaming others. She came out of Long Island for fuck sake. ( I myself am a proud Long Islander atm)

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

In your opinion. I've always been perplexed by all the insistence that LuAnn is some great beauty. I don't see it and I've never seen it. Nor have I  thought that she has this amazing sense of style. Beyond that, I've never thought that beauty or lack of it is something to use to demean or denigrate others.

Aside from her appearance and her bullshit title, LuAnn has lived an interesting life that is compelling enough for her to brag about it on the show. But I also think Carole and Bethenny have lived interesting lives too. In fact, I find Carole's life so interesting because she was not only creatively and professionally fulfilled, but her work as a journalist impacted people in the US and around the globe. That's something to be proud of and it's something to aspire to. Bethenny has lived an interesting life, but it's enough of a horror show that I'm not the least bit envious.

Carole and Bethenny have their own reasons to not like LuAnn that have nothing to do with looks or her ability to snag a man. Furthermore, I feel like arguments that posit that Carole and Bethenny don't like LuAnn because of jealousy over looks and men to be hilariously retrograde and frankly a bit misogynistic.

Just like I feel that Sonja's sourness over LuAnn and Tom's engagement has less to do with wanting a relationship with Tom and more to do with her wistfulness and melancholy about her previous relationships and how she's screwed her reputation up so badly that she can't get the kind of relationship and wealth that she longs for. I think she's slowly coming to the realization that if she wants the kind of lifestyle she used to have, she needs get her act together and do it herself.

I couldn't agree more.  Lu is attractive, but a great beauty she is not.  All you have to do is look at her nursing school pic.  Yikes!  She must have had some good subtle work since then.   And as much as I've disliked Lu on and off, I managed (until now) to point out things to dislike that didn't involve her body, her mouth, her face, and the way she chews.   Women are bad enough about attacking looks, but the men .......

[motorcitymom65]

1 hour ago, Ki-in said:

They may not be jealous of her looks but her attitude and the fact that she does radiate a certain quality (charisma) that those two wet blankets just don't have. And Lu seems to roll with the punches and land on her feet while those two are mired in their own misery and hate and take grudge holding to epic proportions.

You'll have to fill me in on what kind of punch that Lu has ever rolled with that in any way compares to the punches that Carole has taken. Yet Carole seemed to pick herself up, dust herself off, and make a very nice life for herself. I seriously doubt that she has any great desire to be like Lu. I hate it more than life itself when every issue between women is attributed to jealousy. Makes women seem extremely petty and one dimensional. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by motorcitymom65

[HunterHunted]

The other issue is that Sonja revealed herself to be a selfish user in the dissolution of her marriage. What kind of dumb ho refuses to cut her vacation short when her husband, the man who controls the purse strings, is in the hospital? The man had demonstrated a willingness to chuck wives 1, 2, and 3. Sonja was feeling herself because her marriage to John A. Morgan was his longest. Girl had some serious vaginal hubris.

In her movie deal, she kept implying that J.A. Morgan was going to play some part in financing the movie, which was not true.

LuAnn came out better from her divorce in part because she wasn't the one who transgressed and she was pretty clear headed about her situation.

Sonja on the other hand came out terribly because she kept trying to seduce old man Morgan into making her solvent and she's a delusional grifter. My understanding is that she got a lump sum, alimony, child support, the town house, and 50% ownership of their houses in Colorado, France, and their property in the Caribbean. If she had never gotten into that movie deal and had liquidated her real estate, she could have easily been walking around with $20 million or more. If we're going to talk about being fixated on your old identity, Sonja is where this discussion begins and ends. This woman is so fixated on being Lady Morgan that she's washing her lingerie in the bidet of the townhouse she should have sold a long time ago. She's so desperate that her house doesn't have hot water, but has an army of interns doing....something. I'm sure that nearly every opportunity that has been offered to the other wives was offered to her too, but she probably turned them all down because they weren't posh enough: wine, dishes, books, evine collection, jewelry, weaves, etc.

I've always felt that books are the things Sonja should pursue with a ghost writer of course. About 10 years ago, Cynthia Rowley and Ilene Rosenzweig a series of books about entertaining on a broke girl's budget. It eventually led to a housewares line at Target. That type of thing is right up Sonja's alley. She should have put out books about how to entertain on a broke girl's budget. And a series of Jackie Collins like novels loosely inspired by Sonja's life. Books don't require that Sonja pony up money in the beginning. Plus a book tour would be amazing because Sonja loves being the center of attention. Sonja also needs to host a drag ball or two because she's the definition of camp. She let LuAnn borrow a fur coat rather than turn on the heat. That is some Grey Gardens UES rachet realness.

[LIMOM]

8 minutes ago, motorcitymom65 said:

You'll have to fill me in on what kind of punch that Lu has ever rolled with that in any way compares to the punches that Carole has taken. Yet Carole seemed to pick herself up, dust herself off, and make a very nice life for herself. I seriously doubt that she has any great desire to be like Lu. I hate it more than life itself when every issue between women is attributed to jealousy. Makes women seem extremely petty and one dimensional. 

Unfortunately, it is part of the female experience as I know it.

[film noire]

5 hours ago, QuinnM said:

She did apologize to Luann at the Berkshires.  So there are times she apologizes.

But she didn't apologize.  Bethenny (in a pure narc move) gave herself, in effect, a compliment by saying the behavior was beneath her (which implies Bethenny's usual behaviour reaches a very high standard  of conduct). An apology would be the opposite; Bethenny telling *Luann* that she was above and undeserving of Bethenny's lowdown behaviour.

Edited September 7, 2016 by film noire

[LIMOM]

12 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

The other issue is that Sonja revealed herself to be a selfish user in the dissolution of her marriage. What kind of dumb ho refuses to cut her vacation short when her husband, the man who controls the purse strings, is in the hospital? The man had demonstrated a willingness to chuck wives 1, 2, and 3. Sonja was feeling herself because her marriage to John A. Morgan was his longest. Girl had some serious vaginal hubris.

In her movie deal, she kept implying that J.A. Morgan was going to play some part in financing the movie, which was not true.

LuAnn came out better from her divorce in part because she wasn't the one who transgressed and she was pretty clear headed about her situation.

Sonja on the other hand came out terribly because she kept trying to seduce old man Morgan into making her solvent and she's a delusional grifter. My understanding is that she got a lump sum, alimony, child support, the town house, and 50% ownership of their houses in Colorado, France, and their property in the Caribbean. If she had never gotten into that movie deal and had liquidated her real estate, she could have easily been walking around with $20 million or more. If we're going to talk about being fixated on your old identity, Sonja is where this discussion begins and ends. This woman is so fixated on being Lady Morgan that she's washing her lingerie in the bidet of the townhouse she should have sold a long time ago. She's so desperate that her house doesn't have hot water, but has an army of interns doing....something. I'm sure that nearly every opportunity that has been offered to the other wives was offered to her too, but she probably turned them all down because they weren't posh enough: wine, dishes, books, evine collection, jewelry, weaves, etc.

I've always felt that books are the things Sonja should pursue with a ghost writer of course. About 10 years ago, Cynthia Rowley and Ilene Rosenzweig a series of books about entertaining on a broke girl's budget. It eventually led to a housewares line at Target. That type of thing is right up Sonja's alley. She should have put out books about how to entertain on a broke girl's budget. And a series of Jackie Collins like novels loosely inspired by Sonja's life. Books don't require that Sonja pony up money in the beginning. Plus a book tour would be amazing because Sonja loves being the center of attention. Sonja also needs to host a drag ball or two because she's the definition of camp. She let LuAnn borrow a fur coat rather than turn on the heat. That is some Grey Gardens UES rachet realness.

The problem with Sonja is that she does not follow thru.

While her line of toasters was dumb imo a book with toaster recipes would have been a nice chunk of change, imo.

I said it before, she is stuck in the past and on her senior citizen ex.

Luann has advised her many times to dump the townhouse. But nah, Sonja still hopes that she can keep up with the Morgans. lol

She is very much like Sheree over on the RHOA, we are still waiting on her fashion while I would have gladly shelled good cash to buy any fitness related items from her.

Waste of opportunities, imo

[Duke2801]

I could not care less if Lu wants to hold onto the Countess title.  Whatever floats your boat, dear.

But holding onto Tom (or, to paraphrase George Michael on Arrested Development "....him??") after he publicly cheated and humiliated her?  Oof.  Now that is just sad and embarrassing.

I think Lu used to be stunning.  Now? Eh, she's still attractive - don't get me wrong. But she doesn't have that same effortless glow she once had. I think the deterioration is partly age, partly smoking/drinking, and honestly, partly stress from dealing with her relationship with Tom and her coworkers.   

Edited September 7, 2016 by Duke2801

[kassa]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I find Carole's life so interesting because she was not only creatively and professionally fulfilled, but her work as a journalist impacted people in the US and around the globe. That's something to be proud of and it's something to aspire to.

I agree... except that that trajectory ends with the book which was 10-11 years ago. She suffered a terrible series of losses, and understandably stopped working.  She eventually decided not to return to ABC.  Again, understandable.  She took some time, she wrote an a beautiful memoir.  But then what? 

No books since.  When we "met" her she was in what appeared to be an open relationship with that musician.  The last year or two she's with ChefBoy.  What exactly does she DO?

Don't get me wrong.  If Anthony (and her own savings) left her comfortable enough to blow off work forever and sit and knit, smoke weed and collect cats, good for her.  Own it.  But she presents this persona of Hard Working Single Writer Woman in the City and there really isn't anything to back it up.  For ten years.  

Maybe she's secretly running amazing charities and won't demean them by associating them with her Real Wives persona?  I don't know.

When she first joined I thought "here's a cool woman doing this as a lark, thinks she's above it and can both cash the checks and not get chewed up by the machine."  But what first seemed like her reluctance to bring any real storylines to the table now seems like it's not an act.   There really doesn't seem to be any there there, especially since she got sucked into Bethenny's orbit.  

And seeing the ads for her doing that hideous talking to the fake medium show?  She's not doing this stuff as a lark -- she's as much a fame whore as every housewife in Jersey and Potomac.

[LIMOM]

10 minutes ago, kassa said:

I agree... except that that trajectory ends with the book which was 10-11 years ago. She suffered a terrible series of losses, and understandably stopped working.  She eventually decided not to return to ABC.  Again, understandable.  She took some time, she wrote an a beautiful memoir.  But then what? 

No books since.  When we "met" her she was in what appeared to be an open relationship with that musician.  The last year or two she's with ChefBoy.  What exactly does she DO?

Don't get me wrong.  If Anthony (and her own savings) left her comfortable enough to blow off work forever and sit and knit, smoke weed and collect cats, good for her.  Own it.  But she presents this persona of Hard Working Single Writer Woman in the City and there really isn't anything to back it up.  For ten years.  

Maybe she's secretly running amazing charities and won't demean them by associating them with her Real Wives persona?  I don't know.

When she first joined I thought "here's a cool woman doing this as a lark, thinks she's above it and can both cash the checks and not get chewed up by the machine."  But what first seemed like her reluctance to bring any real storylines to the table now seems like it's not an act.   There really doesn't seem to be any there there, especially since she got sucked into Bethenny's orbit.  

And seeing the ads for her doing that hideous talking to the fake medium show?  She's not doing this stuff as a lark -- she's as much a fame whore as every housewife in Jersey and Potomac.

It is weird to go from serious hard news to the housewives.

Katie Couric went back to work under very similar circumstances and found fulfillment working and raising her girls.

I don't get Carole.

Edited September 7, 2016 by LIMOM

[zoeysmom]

1 hour ago, RHJunkie said:

I always take issue when people generalize a dislike to somehow be related to jealously over something or another. Carole and Bethenny can have relationships with men without scraping the bottom of the barrel for it. Having men in their lives mean they do have access to being 'satisfied' as they require it. The way I see it, Bethenny and Carole have a particular issue with Luann (SkinnyGirl and the Adam thing) and they've taken that held on to it for dear life. By not completely addressing the issues at the time that it happened, the resentment grew and they took every little thing they could to add to their arsenal of 'I hate Luann...see here for all of the reasons she's a horrible human being'. In the end, they took it too far by trying to be the morality police - claiming to not care what Luann does on her own time yet taking many opportunities to talk about those very things and call her names for it. Using Luann's etiquette book as a justification to shame Luann and use it as the basis for calling her a hypocrite is like a playground attempt at trying to re-invent the English language just because to fit with your clever insults. Though just because I feel that both women have a particular incident in mind that is the real fuel behind their dislike of Luann, they've become downright petty with all of the mud they're trying to sling. Sometimes you just need to know when to stop because now both are the point where they're only serving to make themselves look foolish.

I am going to leave jealousy out of the equation because I think with Bethenny and Luann, Bethenny resents the hell out of opportunities Luann and some of the others have taken advantage of as a result of the show.  To me, resentment is the bigger part of the equation.

In the beginning Luann was paid $10,000.00 and Bethenny $7,500.00, to do a show called Manhattan Moms.  Obviously Bethenny was neither a mom or a housewife but her goal, and no one has done it better, was to promote her brand, back then it was Bethenny Bakes.  Ramona claims to have done the show to help her husband's struggling business.  What Bethenny had going for her is she seemed determined in the business world, and vulnerable in her romantic life. Ramona had her business and was proud of the fact she was financially solvent with or without Mario. 

So Bethenny landed a book deal, "Naturally Thin" sometime during filming or by the Reunion.  My guess is she worked hard for it.  All of a sudden, Countess, is offered a book deal based on her life and her views on class and elegance.  There was a discernible change in Bethenny.  By Season 2, she was mocking Luann and her background and how could she write such a book.  Bethenny was still seen as the struggling entrepreneur, trying to get her brand off the ground.  In reality she had received $400,000.00 from Frangelico to promote a drink.  (I posted the link to Bethenny's interview on this on her thread-these are Bethenny's words).  So now she is in an ensemble cast, she is collecting the big endorsements and I believe she thought these women should be happy with their children and marriages and probably didn't need any type of "branding".  To add insult to injury, they hire Kelly and she already has two books under her belt, she is a social, a model and mother and has been dumped by her famous husband.  Who knew Kelly could be unlikable all on her own.  I do think Bethenny resented the introduction of Kelly and really, really disliked Kelly because Kelly had refused to acknowledge her. 

By the second season Luann's marriage was definitely over and Luann tried to hide it.  Bethenny was still operating off the "I'm real", crap and grew to resent Luann, for not letting her warts show.   There are times when these women of huge egos, never stop to consider collateral damage.  It is almost as if they can get angry and hurt another's family members, either directly or by reputation attacks and step back and say, "I was angry,", "it was the truth," or some other justifier.  (Ramona is the worst.)

So by Season 3 Jill and Bethenny had their divide, Jill obviously was an idiot and thought she could get one over on Bethenny and have some huge reconciliation.  Dumb ass.  Which means Jill was essentially willing to throw away her friendships with Luann and Kelly to accomplish this attention grabbing stunt.  Oh and it would promote her stupid book.  Bethenny was asking others not to film with Kelly and Jill was asking others not to film with Bethenny.  Bethenny had her own show and I believe the others really saw no reason to continue to further Bethenny's solo career. 

What has made this resentment battle so ridiculous is Bethenny feels the need to demean Luann's accomplishments and has become a take no prisoner when it comes to anyone questioning hers.  Long before the Count, Luann enjoyed her own fame in Italy and that fame got her into circles that most convalescent home nurses would not be allowed entrance into.

They took different paths to attain their success, Bethenny's ride was just a little lonelier.

When Teresa and Melissa were at each other's throats, Teresa said (well Andy helped her with the big words) that Melissa was an opportunist.   Andy then said, "what is wrong with being an opportunist?"  For some reason the biggest opportunist are very resentful of others who take advantage of opportunities-at least on the RH shows.

I think the other underlying rift between Bethenny and Luann, in the words of Martha Stewart, they are both show offs.  Martha really only called Bethenny a show off, but I do think they both like being the center of attention.  The other difference I noticed, when Candice Bergen kept winning the Emmy for Murphy Brown (she eventually withdrew herself from contention, she was that successful), she thanked her co-stars, producers, writers and everyone connected with the show.  I don't think Bethenny has ever really afforded the other ladies over the years the same courtesy, she has thanked Andy and Bravo.  There is a reason Luann remains friends with Jill, Kelly, Kristen-she supports them and their endeavors. 

So although Luann's solo successes were years ago, and the Count is a distant memory it is part of her life.  Sonja also loves her past life, and I thought she missed the perfect opportunity to call Carole out on past lives when Carole waxed on about eating at Joanne's restaurant everyday when she worked at ABC.  I thought Sonja could have gotten away with -you haven't worked at ABC since before my daughter was born.  So they all have their little issues with each other but most of all they really do want the highlights of their pasts to shine not be bludgeoned by them.  Bethenny is kind of set apart because her phenomenal  success came as a result of the show so her success is not so rooted in the past. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by zoeysmom

[sasha206]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

In your opinion. I've always been perplexed by all the insistence that LuAnn is some great beauty. I don't see it and I've never seen it. Nor have I  thought that she has this amazing sense of style. Beyond that, I've never thought that beauty or lack of it is something to use to demean or denigrate others.

Aside from her appearance and her bullshit title, LuAnn has lived an interesting life that is compelling enough for her to brag about it on the show. But I also think Carole and Bethenny have lived interesting lives too. In fact, I find Carole's life so interesting because she was not only creatively and professionally fulfilled, but her work as a journalist impacted people in the US and around the globe. That's something to be proud of and it's something to aspire to. Bethenny has lived an interesting life, but it's enough of a horror show that I'm not the least bit envious.

Carole and Bethenny have their own reasons to not like LuAnn that have nothing to do with looks or her ability to snag a man. Furthermore, I feel like arguments that posit that Carole and Bethenny don't like LuAnn because of jealousy over looks and men to be hilariously retrograde and frankly a bit misogynistic.

Just like I feel that Sonja's sourness over LuAnn and Tom's engagement has less to do with wanting a relationship with Tom and more to do with her wistfulness and melancholy about her previous relationships and how she's screwed her reputation up so badly that she can't get the kind of relationship and wealth that she longs for. I think she's slowly coming to the realization that if she wants the kind of lifestyle she used to have, she needs get her act together and do it herself.

I never thought of Lu as a great beauty, but she is a handsome woman with great cheekbones and one great body on her.  I don't think of her as a fashionista, but she always looked effortlessly classic to me.  But as she ages, the more I appreciate her beauty.  Her face looks relatively untouched by a plastic surgeon.

I would bet that Lu stands out in a crowd though.   If I saw her on the street, I'd probably be like, wow that is one good looking older woman.  Whereas I think if I saw Beth & Carole on the street I'd think differently.  

Totally agree about Sonja.  If Lu has fucked her way through Manhattan as Beth suggests (which I doubt she comes anywhere close), she's at least probably much more discreet about her partners.  Sonja puts out a vibe that she's been with everyone and is probably considered a joke by all of her conquests.  Which is a shame because I bet at one point she was the straw that stirs the drink.  I love her sense of humor and I think she still looks great.  Not a beauty, but like Lu, a handsome woman.

Edited September 7, 2016 by sasha206

[shoegal]

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

In your opinion. I've always been perplexed by all the insistence that LuAnn is some great beauty. I don't see it and I've never seen it. Nor have I  thought that she has this amazing sense of style. Beyond that, I've never thought that beauty or lack of it is something to use to demean or denigrate others.

Aside from her appearance and her bullshit title, LuAnn has lived an interesting life that is compelling enough for her to brag about it on the show. But I also think Carole and Bethenny have lived interesting lives too. In fact, I find Carole's life so interesting because she was not only creatively and professionally fulfilled, but her work as a journalist impacted people in the US and around the globe. That's something to be proud of and it's something to aspire to. Bethenny has lived an interesting life, but it's enough of a horror show that I'm not the least bit envious.

Carole and Bethenny have their own reasons to not like LuAnn that have nothing to do with looks or her ability to snag a man. Furthermore, I feel like arguments that posit that Carole and Bethenny don't like LuAnn because of jealousy over looks and men to be hilariously retrograde and frankly a bit misogynistic.

Just like I feel that Sonja's sourness over LuAnn and Tom's engagement has less to do with wanting a relationship with Tom and more to do with her wistfulness and melancholy about her previous relationships and how she's screwed her reputation up so badly that she can't get the kind of relationship and wealth that she longs for. I think she's slowly coming to the realization that if she wants the kind of lifestyle she used to have, she needs get her act together and do it herself.

I have to laugh at the idea that LuAnn is so fabulous, all of the other women are just jealous!!  First, it's so basic.  Can't we value women for anything other than their fuckability?  Second, it's not as if Bethenny and Carole are starving for male attention.  They aren't exactly two wallflowers sitting around waiting to be noticed.  Obviously.

As to their lives, I believe both Bethenny and Carole have had just as interesting a life as LuAnn, even more interesting with Carole.  Add the interesting/exciting career that took her around the world, in the off time you have Carole hanging with JFK Jr at his wedding, or hanging out in Martha's Vineyard sharing a beach house with besties JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette....or in Jackie O's apartment in NY.  Those are some pretty exclusive circles.  Bethenny's preHW life was covered by an E! True Hollywood Story (I believe) and Carole's preHW life was the subject of a New York Times best-selling book....but LuAnn got a Before They Were Housewives one-hour special!  LOL

At the reunion, it was quite entertaining to watch Lu trying to drop the news that she 'lived down the road' from the Radziwill's and that's why she pronounces the name the "European" way.  She's so desperate to be "European" and KLASSY.

....and yeah, she dresses like she's stuck in the 90's.  Which explains the hairstyle!

Edited September 7, 2016 by shoegal

[jaync]

Quote

I know the next is luggage and then after that breakfast sandwiches. 

[zoeysmom]

2 minutes ago, jaync said:

Well Bethenny does claim to have a lot of baggage so maybe she does know it all.

[sasha206]

4 minutes ago, shoegal said:

I have to laugh at the idea that LuAnn is so fabulous, all of the other women are just jealous!!  First, it's so basic.  Can't we value women for anything other than their fuckability?  Second, it's not as if Bethenny and Carole are starving for male attention.  They aren't exactly two wallflowers sitting around waiting to be noticed.  Obviously.

As to their lives, I believe both Bethenny and Carole have had just as interesting a life as LuAnn, even more interesting with Carole.  Here's Carole hanging with JFK Jr at his wedding, or hanging out in Martha's Vineyard sharing a beach house with besties JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette....or in Jackie O's apartment in NY.  Those are some pretty exclusive circles.  Bethenny's preHW life was covered by an E! True Hollywood Story (I believe) and Carole's preHW life was the subject of a New York Times best-selling book....but LuAnn got a Before They Were Housewives one-hour special!  LOL

At the reunion, it was quite entertaining to watch Lu trying to drop the news that she 'lived down the road' from the Radziwill's and that's why she pronounces the name the "European" way.  She's so desperate to be "European" and KLASSY.

....and yeah, she dresses like she's stuck in the 90's.  Which explains the hairstyle!

Out of all, I do think that Carole lived a very interesting life -- one that wasn't based her looks.  However, it disappoints me that she has basically lowered herself by being on this show and then those stupid medium shows.  And if you've been a serious journalist, why aren't you still a serious journalist?  The others ones I understand b/c they are usually trying to launch something when it happens and needs the fame.  Does Carole really need the money/fame to promote her books after already having a successful book?  Her participation in this show saddens and puzzles me.

On Lu, I would love to see her update her look but I do admire that she hasn't gone the extensions route.  Would love to see her with a bob haircut (without the flipped up layers!)

[LIMOM]

20 minutes ago, shoegal said:

I have to laugh at the idea that LuAnn is so fabulous, all of the other women are just jealous!!  First, it's so basic.  Can't we value women for anything other than their fuckability?  Second, it's not as if Bethenny and Carole are starving for male attention.  They aren't exactly two wallflowers sitting around waiting to be noticed.  Obviously.

As to their lives, I believe both Bethenny and Carole have had just as interesting a life as LuAnn, even more interesting with Carole.  Add the interesting/exciting career that took her around the world, in the off time you have Carole hanging with JFK Jr at his wedding, or hanging out in Martha's Vineyard sharing a beach house with besties JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bessette....or in Jackie O's apartment in NY.  Those are some pretty exclusive circles.  Bethenny's preHW life was covered by an E! True Hollywood Story (I believe) and Carole's preHW life was the subject of a New York Times best-selling book....but LuAnn got a Before They Were Housewives one-hour special!  LOL

At the reunion, it was quite entertaining to watch Lu trying to drop the news that she 'lived down the road' from the Radziwill's and that's why she pronounces the name the "European" way.  She's so desperate to be "European" and KLASSY.

....and yeah, she dresses like she's stuck in the 90's.  Which explains the hairstyle!

They are all stuck in the nineties, imo.

Beth speaks like she is straight out of the cast of Living Single. 

And whats her name and her holla.

[shoegal]

20 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Out of all, I do think that Carole lived a very interesting life -- one that wasn't based her looks.  However, it disappoints me that she has basically lowered herself by being on this show and then those stupid medium shows.  And if you've been a serious journalist, why aren't you still a serious journalist?  The others ones I understand b/c they are usually trying to launch something when it happens and needs the fame.  Does Carole really need the money/fame to promote her books after already having a successful book?  Her participation in this show saddens and puzzles me.

On Lu, I would love to see her update her look but I do admire that she hasn't gone the extensions route.  Would love to see her with a bob haircut (without the flipped up layers!)

I think what Carole has basically said is that she had her life completely ripped out from under her with the death of JFK Jr, Carolyn and Anthony, and she tried to go back to ABC but her grief was just too overwhelming.  So she retreated from the world for a decade and some change, wrote then book and then re-emerged and tried to start her life over again.  She still has pieces of her old life, writing/interviewing/etc, but I think Carole is forever a different person after the deaths, and she is a bit aimless and just like she says, living in the moment.  I thought the revelation she had with Bethenny about the kitten and her life being temporary was so interesting.  What she went through was just awful.  I personally am glad she's on the show, because without the show I never would have read her book which I still adore to this day, and I recommend to anyone but especially if you have ever experienced an earth shattering loss (and a sudden one at that). https://www.amazon.com/What-Remains-Memoir-Fate-Friendship/dp/074327718X

Edited September 7, 2016 by shoegal
ETA: I'm shoegal and I approve this message

[motorcitymom65]

48 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Out of all, I do think that Carole lived a very interesting life -- one that wasn't based her looks.  However, it disappoints me that she has basically lowered herself by being on this show and then those stupid medium shows.  And if you've been a serious journalist, why aren't you still a serious journalist?  The others ones I understand b/c they are usually trying to launch something when it happens and needs the fame.  Does Carole really need the money/fame to promote her books after already having a successful book?  Her participation in this show saddens and puzzles me.

On Lu, I would love to see her update her look but I do admire that she hasn't gone the extensions route.  Would love to see her with a bob haircut (without the flipped up layers!)

But Carole seems very happy and content with her life, just as it is. I think she is still trying to figure out what she wants to do, and isn't afraid to try some things, even if she fails at them. She suffered a terrible group of losses. That can change a person. Change what they want and what is important to them. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by motorcitymom65

[jaync]

Quote

Can't we value women for anything other than their fuckability? 

It's better than devaluing them for it, à la Bethany.

[WireWrap]

26 minutes ago, shoegal said:

I think what Carole has basically said is that she had her life completely ripped out from under her with the death of JFK Jr, Carolyn and Anthony, and she tried to go back to ABC but her grief was just too overwhelming.  So she retreated from the world for a decade and some change, wrote then book and then re-emerged and tried to start her life over again.  She still has pieces of her old life, writing/interviewing/etc, but I think Carole is forever a different person after the deaths, and she is a bit aimless and just like she says, living in the moment.  I thought the revelation she had with Bethenny about the kitten and her life being temporary was so interesting.  What she went through was just awful.  I personally am glad she's on the show, because without the show I never would have read her book which I still adore to this day, and I recommend to anyone but especially if you have ever experienced an earth shattering loss (and a sudden one at that). https://www.amazon.com/What-Remains-Memoir-Fate-Friendship/dp/074327718X

I also enjoyed her book, WR, a lot.

Her relationship with CBK was also one where she allowed CBK to take the lead 99% of the time. By all reports, Caroline had a strong personality with strong opinions, much like Heather and now Bethenny. I think Carole allows herself to become immersed in their personalities to the point that she morphs into a mini me persona even when it goes against her own true nature and to her detriment. I think Heather knew this and tried not to abuse it and encouraged Carole to stay true to herself, whereas I think Bethenny loves this personality trait/tic and uses it to her own advantage, not Carole's advantage, but her own. She was like this with Anthony as well.

IMO, she is drawn to strong personalities and follows their lead instead of forging her own and she only does this in her personal life for some strange reason. It's like she doesn't want to make the hard decisions about or for herself and needs others to do it for her, again, personal, not professional but it appears she has given up on the professional life altogether now. 

[mwell345]

4 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Maybe, but I don't think so. Increasingly, this cast is operating exactly like how Sonja has always been. This is a workplace. They'll interact for work, but as soon as the camera stops rolling they have nothing to do with each other.

I think this is true of all the HW shows and why Bravo should really stop with the forced interaction.  Maybe a couple of dinners, or one trip - we know they are not really friends.  We get it.  Just let us see them live their lives especially with NYC as a backdrop.  And if some of them are friends, fine, let them interact as they would.

[miss carousel]

I think as far as men go Bethy & Lu are both scraping the bottom of the barrel with their douchy, bald lovers.

Human nature is full of pettiness, jealousy and envy. Ain't nobody above it or 100% free from it. Sometimes bitches be jealous, yeah it's that basic. Basic human nature and neither gender has a monopoly on it. It may not be the whole story but that doesn't mean it isn't present and a part of the rancor.

Scolding ones peers from perceived lofty perches is pretty basic to.

[HunterHunted]

14 minutes ago, mwell345 said:

I think this is true of all the HW shows and why Bravo should really stop with the forced interaction.  Maybe a couple of dinners, or one trip - we know they are not really friends.  We get it.  Just let us see them live their lives especially with NYC as a backdrop.  And if some of them are friends, fine, let them interact as they would.

I think that all of the shows should be as candid as RHoMelbourne or RuPaul's Drag Race where they will straight up say "I hate you. Go fuck yourself." Well maybe not all of the shows all of the time. Maybe one episode a year...like The Purge. But I'm sure Bethenny would argue that's what went down in December: Berkshires County. But that was unhinged and completely lacking in context. It seemed like Bethenny went off on LuAnn because she had seen how nasty LuAnn was to Carole on social media, but Bethenny never explicitly said that so we were left to guess at what motivated the whore fuckdoll diatribe.

[miss carousel]

I'm skeptical that whatever place of yes that the whore/slut/skank/sex doll rant came from had much to do with what Lu put Carole through. And Luann was lousy to Carole and Carole has very legit reasons to dislike Luann. Bethenny's actions and motives are more ambiguous.

[ryebread]

31 minutes ago, miss carousel said:

I think as far as men go Bethy & Lu are both scraping the bottom of the barrel with their douchy, bald lovers.

This.  At the very end of the Pinata Jewelry Grab episode, Bethenny proposes a toast. She raises a glass to the other HWs.  Says they've been lied to, cheated on and stolen from but they are strong women! - hear them roar.

After they finish roaring, maybe they should take better care in their selection of men.

[sasha206]

2 hours ago, motorcitymom65 said:

But Carole seems very happy and content with her life, just as it is. I think she is still trying to figure out what she wants to do, and isn't afraid to try some things, even if she fails at them. She suffered a terrible group of losses. That can change a person. Change what they want and what is important to them. 

I get that, but at least in the first season, it felt like her participation was done in a sneering fashioln as if this is a social experiment to her and she was above the RHO fray.  

Maybe now she has embraced that she went from respected producer to reality show bravolebrity.

[sasha206]

3 hours ago, shoegal said:

I think what Carole has basically said is that she had her life completely ripped out from under her with the death of JFK Jr, Carolyn and Anthony, and she tried to go back to ABC but her grief was just too overwhelming.  So she retreated from the world for a decade and some change, wrote then book and then re-emerged and tried to start her life over again.  She still has pieces of her old life, writing/interviewing/etc, but I think Carole is forever a different person after the deaths, and she is a bit aimless and just like she says, living in the moment.  I thought the revelation she had with Bethenny about the kitten and her life being temporary was so interesting.  What she went through was just awful.  I personally am glad she's on the show, because without the show I never would have read her book which I still adore to this day, and I recommend to anyone but especially if you have ever experienced an earth shattering loss (and a sudden one at that). https://www.amazon.com/What-Remains-Memoir-Fate-Friendship/dp/074327718X

 

I have a love/hate thing with her.  On one hand, I find her to be very relatable, someone I'd love to have a drink with, someone who probably is a great friend. Then there are times when I feel like she holds herself above this reality celebrity crowd as though she isn't part of this joke.  I would, however, be disappointed if she left the show.  

I actually really liked her and Heather together versus her friendship with Bethenny.  Her friendship with Bethenny doesn't feel as organic to me as it does Heather.  With Bethenny's vulgarities for the sake of vulgarity and her authority on everything personality, I don't see Carole really meshing with Bethenny if it weren't for the power that she has with Bravo and her overall success in life in general.

[ryebread]

35 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Her friendship with Bethenny doesn't feel as organic to me as it does Heather.  With Bethenny's vulgarities for the sake of vulgarity and her authority on everything personality, I don't see Carole really meshing with Bethenny if it weren't for the power that she has with Bravo and her overall success in life in general.

Tonight, during Part 2 of the reunion, Carole was defending herself against the accusations that she doesn't go anywhere with anyone except Bethenny.  She said something like, she and Bethenny got close and of course they're going to go places together.  I'm not disputing that that happened but it sounded exactly like how she talked about Heather. 

I think Carole latches on to people who seem strong to her because she is weak. As in, really doesn't have much of a backbone.  Maybe she got that way because of all the tragedies in her life but she just seems like this brittle, scared little rabbit of a woman.  Who also happens to be quite lazy.  So she latches on to the most powerful woman. They, in turn need sychophants who will do their bidding.  Win/win.

[biakbiak]

Oops wrong threed

Edited September 8, 2016 by biakbiak

[tenativelyyours]

14 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

Princess Di had a number of titles taken away from her when Charles divorced her. Princess Di was royalty. The Count and Countess titles are nobility – so I don’t know what the rules are.

On a side note, did you know John is nobility? John is the Earl of Body Sandwiches.

The titles Diana has taken were titles afforded to her as the consort to the Prince of Wales.  She was born into a titled family and so that is what she pretty much reverted to upon the divorce.  But it also was a bit difficult as she stopped being the Princess of Wales which made her an HRH (Her Royal highness) but was still a Princess (Her HIghness) because a divorce does not completely reduce a spouse by courtesy.  There also was some shifting of the usual forms because at the time, by law, it could have affected Charles standing as future King of England since that position also brings head of the Church of England with it and divorce, let along remarriage (something he clearly planned with Camilla) was problematic at the least.

Technically you cannot be a true holder of a title and be an American citizen.  There were also political shifts that frowned on foreign title recognition in post-WW II Great Britain as huge rewrites and blacking out of actual events and positions was needed since they could hardly admit that even up to and including the Blitz there had been huge support for the Nazis even in extended royal family members.   Agreements with Soviet Russia and with Communist Poland and even with West Germany all included how foreign title holders were treated and received in Great Britain where titles and a titled class still existed.  In the U.S, not so much since on one hand you can call yourself anything but you also can't legally hold a title. 

With the Lesseps it is different because it was not a title awarded -- it was a titled allowed that had been self-established.  Politely allowing someone the use of a title is a bit like when the Durforts actually said bonjour to a Murat a generation ago.  It is simply realizing it is hardly worth it to push a point that is no longer relevant.  Relevant except that among Luann's noble and royal friends she counts the social embarrassment of exiled Greek royals it took Miller duty free billions to put an acceptable aroma to and even that didn't smooth things over completely with the Palace despite (or maybe by that time because?) the Queen was married to his cousin and fellow exiled 'Greek' prince.  But there is no patent, there is not actual confirmation let alone even a legal establishment of hereditary rights to the "count" title with the Lesseps.  There is no proof that anyone even past the first 'Count' was deemed to legally bear the title since Napoleon III did have a cash basis for letting single generations bear a title that was never meant to be hereditary.  He also got the boot and most of the ancien regime never recognized the first Napoleon's titles let alone the Second Empire ones that even the first Empire ones saw as arrivistes.

But this was also a time when some of the worst anti-Semites that had titles still had no problem dining with the Rothschilds or taking in the hunt that season at one of their country houses.  Not just in Britain but also France and even in the incredibly rigid Austrian court.

But yes, in terms of titles that no longer mattered generations before either of these women came along, Luann's is so far down the ladder that the waiters passing themselves off as Prince Serge in post WWI Paris had a better chance of dining with the Radziwills, let alone the Queen in Buckingham than the Lesseps.   

And the sticking point is that the whole pretend to adhere to the rules of the Lesseps title is a joke.  It was never established as Salic otherwise it also still oddly sticks to the Catholic or Calvinist for Protestant standards of marriage (no idea why that still holds but it does as even the wild Grimaldis prove) if you are saying it is a French title (and just the move to Switzerland makes the title void by the standards the Lesseps try to pretend to).  But if Noel is the next "count" because of French Salic law of title inheritance, than by the number of marriages the Count has had, well, poor Noel would be deemed a bastard and not eligible to bear the title of count.  There also is the issue of nationality for Noel.  As he is not a French citizen, there also is no title for him to "inherit".  But thanks to a nice several generations game of pretend that is simple affectations coupled with enough money to simply not make most people in their circles who don't even have pretend titles to pass down not care or simply buy into the fantasy.  Heck we live in a culture that actually has thousands and thousands of people claiming on various forms of social media how disappointed they are when the latest The Bachelor/Bachelorette couple splits -- saying earnestly how they thought this couple really seemed in love and were going to make it.  I know there is practically a religion in belief that William and Kate are deeply and ruly romantically in love and its nothing like his parents' marriage.  Time will tell.  Or they could just be making a compatible and enjoyable relationship out of something he needed to do -- desperately.  After all, his father was being publicly attacked with eggs and rotten vegetables not too many years when monarchy abolishment  was being discussed rather widely after Diana's death.

 

But the good thing about a generational grift is that there is no ruler to call you on it.  There isn't even an established level of society that the Lesseps run in to call them on it.  You never saw them in Town & Country with the de Ribes or the de Romanones.    They never were hobnobbing with the camera eager Manners or even the Delevingnes (older generation).

Turnabout is though that I think from the way Frances the Mule has used her dead relatives, I wouldn't be surprised if she was a bit disappointed to find she married a Radziwill who had not a single aspiration to trade in on the name or have much in the way of any noble connections.  I always thought she tried to carefully allude to such in a roundabout fashion without having to name them and then we find out last season of all the women, Dorinda, brash drunken floozy Dorinda has the highest contacts in any European high society.  Sorry but that was a howlingly funny moment and one that the Mule truly was caught off guard by.  Loved it. 

But here the Mule is right.  Luann puts more stock in the history of that title without having a clue how hollow it always was.  But she also has been able to trade on it and why stop now?  It's not like anyone was ever asking for the discharge papers of Captain Kangeroo.

[LIMOM]

56 minutes ago, tenativelyyours said:

The titles Diana has taken were titles afforded to her as the consort to the Prince of Wales.  She was born into a titled family and so that is what she pretty much reverted to upon the divorce.  But it also was a bit difficult as she stopped being the Princess of Wales which made her an HRH (Her Royal highness) but was still a Princess (Her HIghness) because a divorce does not completely reduce a spouse by courtesy.  There also was some shifting of the usual forms because at the time, by law, it could have affected Charles standing as future King of England since that position also brings head of the Church of England with it and divorce, let along remarriage (something he clearly planned with Camilla) was problematic at the least.

Technically you cannot be a true holder of a title and be an American citizen.  There were also political shifts that frowned on foreign title recognition in post-WW II Great Britain as huge rewrites and blacking out of actual events and positions was needed since they could hardly admit that even up to and including the Blitz there had been huge support for the Nazis even in extended royal family members.   Agreements with Soviet Russia and with Communist Poland and even with West Germany all included how foreign title holders were treated and received in Great Britain where titles and a titled class still existed.  In the U.S, not so much since on one hand you can call yourself anything but you also can't legally hold a title. 

With the Lesseps it is different because it was not a title awarded -- it was a titled allowed that had been self-established.  Politely allowing someone the use of a title is a bit like when the Durforts actually said bonjour to a Murat a generation ago.  It is simply realizing it is hardly worth it to push a point that is no longer relevant.  Relevant except that among Luann's noble and royal friends she counts the social embarrassment of exiled Greek royals it took Miller duty free billions to put an acceptable aroma to and even that didn't smooth things over completely with the Palace despite (or maybe by that time because?) the Queen was married to his cousin and fellow exiled 'Greek' prince.  But there is no patent, there is not actual confirmation let alone even a legal establishment of hereditary rights to the "count" title with the Lesseps.  There is no proof that anyone even past the first 'Count' was deemed to legally bear the title since Napoleon III did have a cash basis for letting single generations bear a title that was never meant to be hereditary.  He also got the boot and most of the ancien regime never recognized the first Napoleon's titles let alone the Second Empire ones that even the first Empire ones saw as arrivistes.

But this was also a time when some of the worst anti-Semites that had titles still had no problem dining with the Rothschilds or taking in the hunt that season at one of their country houses.  Not just in Britain but also France and even in the incredibly rigid Austrian court.

But yes, in terms of titles that no longer mattered generations before either of these women came along, Luann's is so far down the ladder that the waiters passing themselves off as Prince Serge in post WWI Paris had a better chance of dining with the Radziwills, let alone the Queen in Buckingham than the Lesseps.   

And the sticking point is that the whole pretend to adhere to the rules of the Lesseps title is a joke.  It was never established as Salic otherwise it also still oddly sticks to the Catholic or Calvinist for Protestant standards of marriage (no idea why that still holds but it does as even the wild Grimaldis prove) if you are saying it is a French title (and just the move to Switzerland makes the title void by the standards the Lesseps try to pretend to).  But if Noel is the next "count" because of French Salic law of title inheritance, than by the number of marriages the Count has had, well, poor Noel would be deemed a bastard and not eligible to bear the title of count.  There also is the issue of nationality for Noel.  As he is not a French citizen, there also is no title for him to "inherit".  But thanks to a nice several generations game of pretend that is simple affectations coupled with enough money to simply not make most people in their circles who don't even have pretend titles to pass down not care or simply buy into the fantasy.  Heck we live in a culture that actually has thousands and thousands of people claiming on various forms of social media how disappointed they are when the latest The Bachelor/Bachelorette couple splits -- saying earnestly how they thought this couple really seemed in love and were going to make it.  I know there is practically a religion in belief that William and Kate are deeply and ruly romantically in love and its nothing like his parents' marriage.  Time will tell.  Or they could just be making a compatible and enjoyable relationship out of something he needed to do -- desperately.  After all, his father was being publicly attacked with eggs and rotten vegetables not too many years when monarchy abolishment  was being discussed rather widely after Diana's death.

 

But the good thing about a generational grift is that there is no ruler to call you on it.  There isn't even an established level of society that the Lesseps run in to call them on it.  You never saw them in Town & Country with the de Ribes or the de Romanones.    They never were hobnobbing with the camera eager Manners or even the Delevingnes (older generation).

Turnabout is though that I think from the way Frances the Mule has used her dead relatives, I wouldn't be surprised if she was a bit disappointed to find she married a Radziwill who had not a single aspiration to trade in on the name or have much in the way of any noble connections.  I always thought she tried to carefully allude to such in a roundabout fashion without having to name them and then we find out last season of all the women, Dorinda, brash drunken floozy Dorinda has the highest contacts in any European high society.  Sorry but that was a howlingly funny moment and one that the Mule truly was caught off guard by.  Loved it. 

But here the Mule is right.  Luann puts more stock in the history of that title without having a clue how hollow it always was.  But she also has been able to trade on it and why stop now?  It's not like anyone was ever asking for the discharge papers of Captain Kangeroo.

They lived in Switzerland for the same reason that some well off French Nationals left the country, taxes plain and simple.

As far as him being part of any elite, I have never heard of any high level French officials who did not come out of the ENA school or at the very least Sciences PO.

As far as his title? Why not?

The Bernadotte still rules Sweden, lol

[Otherkate]

12 hours ago, jaync said:

It's better than devaluing them for it, à la Bethany.

They both suck imo. 

[Yours Truly]

18 hours ago, miss carousel said:

I think as far as men go Bethy & Lu are both scraping the bottom of the barrel with their douchy, bald lovers.

Human nature is full of pettiness, jealousy and envy. Ain't nobody above it or 100% free from it. Sometimes bitches be jealous, yeah it's that basic. Basic human nature and neither gender has a monopoly on it. It may not be the whole story but that doesn't mean it isn't present and a part of the rancor.

Scolding ones peers from perceived lofty perches is pretty basic to.

Short, sweet and perfect. :-)

[film noire]

On 9/7/2016 at 5:54 PM, shoegal said:

Can't we value women for anything other than their fuckability? 

Bethenny sure can't -- when it comes to Luann, it's one repulsive slur after another, all centered around "fuckability", fucking and no freedom to fuck without being slut-shamed.

[queenjen]

On 9/8/2016 at 5:21 AM, Yours Truly said:

I think it's more about how they resent the way Lu does represent herself. You're right both Beth and Carole have plenty of life experiences that could probably hold our attention for an hour long special but if anyone's pompous and pretentious it's those two. Or more like entitled. THEY don't think Lu should flaunt anything. They don't (or so they say, whatever) so they can't stand that Lu carries on the way she does. I think she gets carried away sometimes but nothing too major but it's more about the response she gets. I do think there is jealousy there. While Beth and Carole's approach is to try and 'understate" things about who they are and feign being humble Lu just glides in non apologetic and self appreciative as hell. That irks. Especially women like Beth and Carole who need it not to be about physical appearance or sexual appeal since neither one has either.

Believe me I've been the muted beauty in the room with other outwardly attractive and sexy women only to be overlooked because my companions were set to 10 while I chose to be a bit more delicate in my socializing and flirting. I'm not the aggressive type and I sure as hell am not fighting for anyone's attention. My friends on the other hand would pounce right away and just lay it on thick all the while I'm noticing some of those prey making eyes at me. Nothing would come of it cause dibs have been made and even though there seemed to be interest, playing musical dance buddies among girlfriends during a night out wasn't really acceptable but sometimes I used to get really frustrated cause I liked to ease into it and ya know, steal glances, observe body language, let the across the room dynamic work its thing and then let it build from there but the way my friends operated they'd drape themselves over this one or that one and wouldn't let anything organic happen so if a guy noticed me after my friend already dirty danced her scent onto him for 2 dances there really wasn't anywhere to go from there. Stakes have been claimed only for it to not go anywhere for anyone.  Wasted evening for me cause my prospects were slowly devoured by the Lu types while I sat back and hoped for a more subtle pairing based on real attraction and intent instead of hunter and prey.

I don't think it's some burning rage with Carole and Beth but I do believe it's about the resentment the wall flowers feel about the likes of a woman like Lu. (Beth's not exactly a wall flower but she's disaster so same difference) The one's that don't give anyone else a chance unless of course your a vulture too. Some women like me don't like to enter a venue ready to pounce so when you have these divas completely distracting the men with such obvious methods it's annoying. And it's a strong factor when drawing an opinion of someone else. Me personally, I've gotten over it although it still is a trait I do dislike but as I've strengthened my own game and embraced my own fabulousness I find that no matter what I am not ever completely eclipsed by other women in the room. It did take me a while to get to that place meaning a Lu will never "steal my thunder" but it really is a strong basis of dislike. People like to deny it cause it's such a petty thing but I for one see it plain as day. They resent that what they consider corny, typical, dated, desperate  and even archaic behavior still reaps Lu the reward of attention. Whether it be from the opposite sex, society, different circles, fans they hate how she gets rewarded for something they find completely unworthy of praise or positive reaction. Sure they have other relevant grievances with her but on a minor scale. The reason why these ridiculous feuds reach nuclear meltdown I promise is because of this underlying resentment they have of this particular detail.

It eats them up.... Maybe that's why they're skin and bones... LOL.

This. Remember Dorinda's description of Ramona's game? She says Ramona has settled into 'hunting' rather than 'trapping'. I have never heard this before, but I love it! Whilst it has zero to do with Ramona's game, it's a really apt description of the scene. And what you've said, Yours Truly, reminded me. I can totally relate to hanging back, often to your own detriment, whilst the lesser luminaries jangle their bracelets, flip their dos and shimmy. I love you've brought this up because it's foundational to the Howives dynamic: this resentment that exists. Or that has certainly existed this particular season. Lu snagged Tom in the first place by snatching him from someone else. Imagine how that woman felt? Maybe she's relieved NOW, but Lu is one of those women who is relentless when she's after something. She's a trapper. 

I'm a feminist, and I'm not even going there with the right and wrong viz a viz male accountability in these situations. They are conditioned, no one with power walks away from or relinquishes it by choice. We don't talk about it much but every woman here would have her own story or observation of women with great trapping skills beating out the better or more appropriate competition. And how unfair it feels! But there's no court of appeal here. 

Also, all these women are at an age where they're terrified of being alone. The pool is shrinking, men their age go for the younger models, sad but true, and it's becoming positively gladiatorial. I'm facing it myself. I know I'd rather be on my own than in the wrong relationship and there's nothing wrong with being alone etc. But. It IS a depressing prospect, the empty house at the end of the day etc. I GET it. We are seeing the terror writ large on our screens of this scenario this season. And Vicki Gunvalson is another cautionary tale. It is exactly this that drove THAT nastiness. 

[queenjen]

Tom has obviously got a weakness for trappers with a clutch. Surely Lu has to afford bunny some grudging respect? !

[aradia22]

Everyone is very... Instagram glam makeup-wise but without the great lighting. Also, what in the hell is Carole wearing? She looks like she stole Miss Havisham's wedding dress.

Ha! Right off the bat, Beth trying to avoid talking about her new guy.

LOL. Everyone talking over Carole.

Shut up, B. "It was really only our friends there." You're on a TV show.

Shady. Beth gets called out on making the coke insinuations and then pulls the 'I don't want to talk about it' move, thereby trying to save face after getting called out but still get to keep the rumor out there unchallenged.

LOL, at Sonja jumping in. She has great moments but she's also ridiculous when she wants to grab the spotlight. Lest we forget the facialist...

Shut up, Ramona. Nothing is going on with her yet she keeps opening her mouth.

Haha, B calling out Ramona for being a shit stirrer. I know things are going to be tense with the couch alliances but I like to see them shake things up a bit.

I'm not age-shaming. I think you can be fabulous at any age. I'm Ramona shaming. That clip montage of her "flirting" was embarrassing.

[aradia22]

What is Sonja doing? I think she's intentionally trying to stumble into a fight with Dorinda who's not as vicious as the others (when she's sober) but also isn't a worthless, boring opponent like Carole or Jules.

Andy's face when Ramona was talking about hanging out with a bunch of gay guys. 

B's hair does look pretty similar to Lu's. They're not identical but it's a similar length and color and sometimes they have it curled or straightened the same way. I'm not sure how they found the one viewer who couldn't see that. 

LOL. B's startled Dobby eyes are giving Ramona's crazy eyes a run for their money this episode. It's not a terribly strong move. Use your words. Not your eyes.

I wish Lu had brought a stronger case and the other ladies had been willing to fight on her team. I'd been waiting all episode for the Beth/hypocrite/married man fight. Sigh... Lu is so great sometimes but this was a disappointing scuffle with Bethenny. Get people to write you a script if that's what it takes, but bring it.

Oh, great. Now B is happy to be guilty of slut-shaming but who's a girl's girl is definitely going to come up again. God, she IS evil. Why is nothing sticking. This is so disappointing. Oh, well, maybe B will look terrible going up against poor Jules. One can only hope.

[izabella]

8 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Andy's face when Ramona was talking about hanging out with a bunch of gay guys. 

Yes, those are her "dates" that she's been leaving events early for to go on, all while trying to make it seem like she was actually dating.  Hate her and her bs.

Edited September 23, 2016 by izabella