The Other Duggars: The Lost Girls and Amy

[Farmfam]

Can I be an extreme optimist if maybe Michelle has to have an apron on now because Jana is courting?! Maybe?!? We all know they have no responsibilities while courting so they can focus on their relationship...that's why she isn't at the party and why Michelle's been "more present" (at least on SM) in the kitchen with the kids. 

[floridamom]

Does anyone know what Jordyn's arms and hands movements indicate? The girl was clutching herself, opening and closing her fists and was so uncomfortable. I watched it again, without sound and was even more astounded. Michelle needs some emotional help, IMO. She's just not a normal 51 year old woman.

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Does anyone know what Jordyn's arms and hands movements indicate? The girl was clutching herself, opening and closing her fists and was so uncomfortable. I watched it again, without sound and was even more astounded. Michelle needs some emotional help, IMO. She's just not a normal 51 year old woman.

I noticed her hands too. I'm guessing its shyness combined with maybe the soft fuzziness of her 'new' dress.

[Jynnan tonnix]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I noticed her hands too. I'm guessing its shyness combined with maybe the soft fuzziness of her 'new' dress.

I do a lot of rubbing my hands/twining my fingers when I'm nervous, or even just talking to pretty much anyone. It's sort of a self-soothing behaviour, but I don't even need to be all that stressed to do it. Never really thought about it that much before. Huh. It could just be a nervous habit and not indicative of any real trauma, or it could be a silent cry for help, but as armchair psychologists, I guess we really don't have all that much to go on. There's an awful lot of conjecture and speculation in our "diagnoses" sometimes...

[truthtalk2014]

Jordyn's hands bothered me.  The way she kept going to her breasts.  Even more, MEchelle's constant poking at the poor child.  She reminded me of witchipoo.  She is not a nice person and poor Jordyn made that abundantly clear in this video. 

[Catfin]

My MD in Psychiatry is from a gumball machine. That said, the family dynamic, bat-shit crazy mom and utter chaos of the household is exacerbating whatever might be present in that poor little girl's psyche. 

[madpsych78]

I'm a school psychologist.  Jordyn's body language toward her mother didn't appear to reflect a secure bond with Michelle IMO. The arms and hands were what stood out to me immediately, but upon rewatch I did notice her flinching. 

Rewatching last year's birthday video, when Jordyn turned 8 (at the restaurant), Michelle seemed to be holding Jordyn the entire time as well. Jordyn didn't exhibit any unusual body language other than that she looked sad and withdrawn.

I tried to find other birthday videos for the younger kids and couldn't find any. Why have all the birthday videos, where JB and/or Michelle are standing next to and talking about the kid, are only of Jordyn?

[Sew Sumi]

Probably because they got a lot of heat for ignoring her when Josie was born. 

[drafan]

I think she looked uneasy about being filmed.....she glanced at the camera several times. Then when they panned the room, there were a bunch of "outsiders" watching that were making her even shyer. I think she seemed embarrassed about the whole spectacle.

As for the dress....yes, a great thrift shop find, but Mullet was humble-bragging about it. Likewise the "baked" vegetables. It's all about JB/Mullet 24/7.  And the show, of course.  Ugh.

[Celia Rubenstein]

I don't doubt that Michelle is ... under-bonded, shall we say? with most of her kids. But I think too much is being read into that video. 

My primary takeaway from it all is that some insensitive assholes stood a shy little girl up on a chair in front of a huge crowd of people and made her pose for their benefit, with no regard to how embarrassed and uncomfortable the whole thing made her. She was literally and figuratively off balance and leaning into her father for stability more than recoiling from her mother in my opinion. She didn't seem to be deeply unhappy or evidencing spectrum-type behavior. She just seemed like a bashful kid who wanted it all to be over with so she could get at her presents and enjoy her day. 

It sucks that Jim Bob and Michelle have so little regard for their daughter's feelings, but I think that's the worst thing that the video reveals.  I don't think it's evidence that Jordyn is deeply troubled or suffering the way that has been suggested.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[ChiCricket]

More speculation from InTouch 

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/is-jordyn-duggar-abused-149625.amp

[sheshark]

Hmmm, I used to 'embellish' my new purchases to my (now ex-) husband.  First thing I thought about watching MeeChelle.  "Oh I was passing this YARD SALE and saw this fabulous Fisher-Price garage set from the street.  Doesn't it look brand new?"  A little too much detail.

[queenanne]

10 minutes ago, sheshark said:

Hmmm, I used to 'embellish' my new purchases to my (now ex-) husband.  First thing I thought about watching MeeChelle.  "Oh I was passing this YARD SALE and saw this fabulous Fisher-Price garage set from the street.  Doesn't it look brand new?"  A little too much detail.

I dunno, I thought the dress seemed plausibly like something someone bought for a flower girl dress, and then said flower girl grew out of it without another occasion to wear it.

[louannems]

 

Jordyn's 2016 birthday video.  Same reaction to Michelle-INDIFFERENCE!

Even before Miracle Josie was born, baby Jordyn was always seen shoved in a corner in a bounce chair.    There was so little interaction with her.

After they moved to the Little Rock house after Josie's birth, Jordyn ran wild while the big sisters "cared" for her.  Michelle was holed up at the hospital in NICU.

[Churchhoney]

On 12/19/2017 at 8:51 PM, cmr2014 said:

Wow! And they posted that?

They really are just clueless. 

People like them are always clueless. They're totally fixated on their personal vision of things, which doesn't even include the reality of other human beings.

The idea that they're somehow normal or even near-normal has only ever been in the imagination of clueless viewers who somehow see this couple of psychological horrors as a nostalgic remnant of some wonderful big-family American-Christian time they romanticize, I think.

I'd bet that anybody who knows them and who isn't a craven lunatic just like they are knows exactly how crummy -- and clueless -- they are. I'd love to talk to the neighbors. 

That poor child. Think of the years she has still ahead of her living with her parents. 

On 12/19/2017 at 9:52 PM, Stacey1014 said:

Jordyn looked so detached from the situation. Her expression made me wonder if she was on the spectrum. 

Jordyn's detached because she has some clue of the horror she lives in and the horror her parents are. She doesn't need to have a biological basis for the detached look. She's got an extremely strong psychological and situational one. 

[Churchhoney]

On 12/20/2017 at 6:44 AM, BetyBee said:

That poor child!  She looks so sad.  My 9 year old granddaughter is thrilled at her own birthday party.  Something is definitely not right here.  At the very end, when JBoob pulled her close, she seemed drugged.  I'm not saying that she is, just that she was so out of it.  I feel terrified for her and I'm not sure why.  I do think that her "parents" only put this together as an FU Internetz to show that they do more than free sundaes.  It's just sad.  

She's in a extremely psychologically, emotionally and spiritually abusive home. Not a home that should be held up on tv as "cute" and full of virtue and "Christian and American values." She looks the way I looked at her age, so I know whereof I speak. This people are shit. I can't believe people still support they're being on the air. 

[Churchhoney]

On 12/20/2017 at 8:03 AM, floridamom said:

Oh, my. There is something 'wrong' there with poor little sweet Jordyn. Her eyes look dead, she stares out in to nothing. She makes no real eye contact. She shows NO emotion, only sadness.  Not the way it should be for her. It's her birthday, for heaven's sake and she's 9. She should be enjoying it as any 9 year old girl would. I agree that they should have bought her a NEW birthday dress for once.  Someone here who knows a child psychologist, therapist, or childrens' services professional, please ask them to view this video, hopefully they would not know much about this family and ask them what their opinions are about Jordyn. (Sorry for the long run off sentence there.)

The kid definitely doesn't bond to or even like Michelle much.....

So Jordyn's shopping trip was a spur of the moment, let's go to the thrift store and find some junk, er ...I mean modestly priced thing for your birthday....they also were out helping someone ELSE out.

This so called shopping trip was an afterthought.

Something isn't right with Jordyn, poor kid.

Dissociation. Been there, done that. We can only hope that she has some inner life in there that is promising her that if she holds on until she's 18 she can flee. That's the only thing that got me past my suicidal deadness at that age. Unfortunately, she sees little hope of that in her own family and unlucky lucky me she doesn't get to go to school or anywhere else where she can see other people living other lives. She doesn't even get to read books about it. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

Personally, I think InTouch ought to be ashamed of that hideous information-free article, which strikes me as the embodiment of fake news, lol, just repeating the rumors of message boards around in circles.  At least that's the standing basis of the Inquisitr, and nobody expects anything else and is surprised when they do in fact stick in some real reporting.  Are they always that tabloidy as a standard?

[Churchhoney]

On 12/20/2017 at 11:08 AM, flyingdi said:

I will still stick up for Jessa and the other sister moms.  It was not their job to raise their parents children.  I will forever hold it against Jim Bob and Michelle that so many people think it was.  That's just messed up, Boobs and Boobette!

Jessa certainly had no personal responsibility -- in a legalistic sense -- to care for those other kids. But when you're in a situation, if you're a person of warmth and empathy your heart breaks for those who are in even weaker positions in the mess than you are and you DO reach out for them. And if you are a person without warmth and empathy then you don't. She certainly did nothing strictly wrong and, as you say, it's the parents' fault, not Jessa's. However, in situations like that we demonstrate who we are. And Jessa demonstrates that she's a person of limited soul, charity, warmth, empathy and kind of a dumb-ass. None of that is a crime. But it doesn't make her anybody I'd want to know or have in the foxhole next to me either, as they say. 

[queenanne]

6 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Jessa certainly had no personal responsibility -- in a legalistic sense -- to care for those other kids. But when you're in a situation, if you're a person of warmth and empathy your heart breaks for those who are in even weaker positions in the mess than you are and you DO reach out for them. And if you are a person without warmth and empathy then you don't. She certainly did nothing strictly wrong and, as you say, it's the parents' fault, not Jessa's. However, in situations like that we demonstrate who we are. And Jessa demonstrates that she's a person of limited soul, charity, warmth, empathy and kind of a dumb-ass. None of that is a crime. But it doesn't make her anybody I'd want to know or have in the foxhole next to me either, as they say. 

Yeah, Jessa strikes me as a cold fish in that regard, which wouldn't be me as I'm a total mushball "kid person", but it certainly describes family members - I've a grandmother, for example, who dotes and fawns over all of us because we're her genetic material, but has never shown interest in anyone else's children; and in fact, once de facto implied that a baby of my friend's was too ugly to get pride-of-place on my refrigerator after the friend moved away and was unlikely to be looking at the front of my refrigerator.  This affectionate lady also spends a lot of time lecturing all of us that we shouldn't have friends because friends are a waste of time, and in fact would fit right in with the Duggars, as it would suit her just fine if three generations of the family lived in the same house until their respective deaths.

As to Jordyn, I am in fact rather worried by the covering-her-breasts maneuver, which strikes me as having absolutely zero to do with balance under anyone's interpretation, and absolutely 100% likely to be "my chest area has lately been attracting too much attention from someone", because really; what else could it be?  Try a similar pose when you yourselves are standing up, and see what it helps or does.  I should think if she were trying to effect a "shy" coverup, she'd be trying to hide her eyes or some other portion of her head with her hands.

[Scarlett45]

23 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

JEEZ!  She really looks like she doesn't want the crazy lady touching her.  Sadly she probably wanted the mixed veggies and sweet potato fries because that is as unusual as McDonald's was to me as a kid.  They really just need to give up the ghost and have Jana in the mom role.  The littles always look at Michelle as though they barely know who she is.

I just watched this video. If I didn’t know better I would think Jordyn was in a similar position as J’Tyler, and dropped off with these relatives after losing her own parents tragically, and they are TRYING to make her birthday special but barely know her so they are falling short. 

 

Hot damn. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

1 hour ago, queenanne said:

Yeah, Jessa strikes me as a cold fish in that regard, which wouldn't be me as I'm a total mushball "kid person", but it certainly describes family members - I've a grandmother, for example, who dotes and fawns over all of us because we're her genetic material, but has never shown interest in anyone else's children; and in fact, once de facto implied that a baby of my friend's was too ugly to get pride-of-place on my refrigerator after the friend moved away and was unlikely to be looking at the front of my refrigerator.  This affectionate lady also spends a lot of time lecturing all of us that we shouldn't have friends because friends are a waste of time, and in fact would fit right in with the Duggars, as it would suit her just fine if three generations of the family lived in the same house until their respective deaths.

As to Jordyn, I am in fact rather worried by the covering-her-breasts maneuver, which strikes me as having absolutely zero to do with balance under anyone's interpretation, and absolutely 100% likely to be "my chest area has lately been attracting too much attention from someone", because really; what else could it be?  Try a similar pose when you yourselves are standing up, and see what it helps or does.  I should think if she were trying to effect a "shy" coverup, she'd be trying to hide her eyes or some other portion of her head with her hands.

I think the hands-to-the-chest move could very well be just a simple retreating-into-self motion. It really doesn't strike me as anything sexual...again, more of a self-comforting thing, like a mini fetal position. It's probably something I would have done at that age. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Jynnan tonnix

[floridamom]

Churchhoney: I'm sorry for your early life experience, truly I am. I appreciate your posts. Be well.

[flyingdi]

2 hours ago, queenanne said:

Yeah, Jessa strikes me as a cold fish in that regard, which wouldn't be me as I'm a total mushball "kid person", but it certainly describes family members - I've a grandmother, for example, who dotes and fawns over all of us because we're her genetic material, but has never shown interest in anyone else's children; and in fact, once de facto implied that a baby of my friend's was too ugly to get pride-of-place on my refrigerator after the friend moved away and was unlikely to be looking at the front of my refrigerator.  This affectionate lady also spends a lot of time lecturing all of us that we shouldn't have friends because friends are a waste of time, and in fact would fit right in with the Duggars, as it would suit her just fine if three generations of the family lived in the same house until their respective deaths.

As to Jordyn, I am in fact rather worried by the covering-her-breasts maneuver, which strikes me as having absolutely zero to do with balance under anyone's interpretation, and absolutely 100% likely to be "my chest area has lately been attracting too much attention from someone", because really; what else could it be?  Try a similar pose when you yourselves are standing up, and see what it helps or does.  I should think if she were trying to effect a "shy" coverup, she'd be trying to hide her eyes or some other portion of her head with her hands.

The covering her chest area to me looks like she is trying to make herself as small as possible.  She's pulling in on herself, as it were.

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Jessa certainly had no personal responsibility -- in a legalistic sense -- to care for those other kids. But when you're in a situation, if you're a person of warmth and empathy your heart breaks for those who are in even weaker positions in the mess than you are and you DO reach out for them. And if you are a person without warmth and empathy then you don't. She certainly did nothing strictly wrong and, as you say, it's the parents' fault, not Jessa's. However, in situations like that we demonstrate who we are. And Jessa demonstrates that she's a person of limited soul, charity, warmth, empathy and kind of a dumb-ass. None of that is a crime. But it doesn't make her anybody I'd want to know or have in the foxhole next to me either, as they say. 

Ah, true, but Jessa  is the child of two people who appear to be narcissists so she didn't have much of a chance for warmth and empathy to begin with.

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I think the hands-to-the-chest move could very well be just a simple retreating-into-self motion. It really doesn't strike me as anything sexual...again, more of a self-comforting thing, like a mini fetal position. It's probably something I would have done at that age. 

Maybe, but I don’t think you simultaneously had parents pushing on you a Gothard curriculum which said that women are to blame for sexually tempting men with and by the appearance of your bosom, though?  That is primarily why it worries me.  If anyone made any type of comment I could see it weighing upon her.

[Temperance]

Yeah, dissociation is familiar. I've done it and so have other people I know or know of. Anne of Green Gables is a classic example. (She's starts out she's been living in her head. Her past before green gables, includes living with a drunk, and being a not-a-sister-mom to people with too many kids.)

I'm don't think Jessa-is-a-bitch, because she doesn't want to do what she's been told by her parents she wants to do.  Considering a foxhole is "a hole in the ground used by troops as a shelter against enemy fire or as a firing point." I think she could be as good as pretty much a lot of the general population. Out of all her sisters she seems the least likely to be panicked by enemy fire and most ready to return it. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, flyingdi said:

The covering her chest area to me looks like she is trying to make herself as small as possible.  She's pulling in on herself, as it were.

Ah, true, but Jessa  is the child of two people who appear to be narcissists so she didn't have much of a chance for warmth and empathy to begin with.

I actually doubt that a lack or presence of empathy has much to do with the circumstances of one's life, really, at least in most cases.

 I'm the child of such people, in spades, and I have empathy, as do some other people in my family.  I'm the child of someone who, for example, sometimes held a knife to my throat if I said something that annoyed it while we were in the kitchen where knives were easily available, and I have empathy. Meanwhile, these non-empathetic progenitors of my family come from parents who, so far as we can tell, did have empathy. 

I don't blame Jessa for not having empathy. I have a feeling it's just something you're born with or not, and the circumstances of your life may not have much to do with it. I expect she's just not a very empathetic person, just because of the way her particular brain is constructed. 

However, even though I don't blame her for not having empathy, I still woudln't want to hang around with her, just like I don't like to hang around anybody without empathy. Just like I wouldn't want to be their little buddy, like Jordyn was. 

That said, lacking empathy may have been a much easier way for Jessa to go through her own experiences in that house, because she wouldn't have felt the need to worry about anybody else. That might well have helped her to get through it with less damage than some may have experienced. And if she did then that's a good thing. 

When you combine nature and nurture you get a lot of surprising pluses and minuses, I think. 

[flyingdi]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I actually doubt that a lack or presence of empathy has much to do with the circumstances of one's life, really, at least in most cases.

 I'm the child of such people, in spades, and I have empathy, as do some other people in my family.  I'm the child of someone who, for example, sometimes held a knife to my throat if I said something that annoyed it while we were in the kitchen where knives were easily available, and I have empathy. Meanwhile, these non-empathetic progenitors of my family come from parents who, so far as we can tell, did have empathy. 

I don't blame Jessa for not having empathy. I have a feeling it's just something you're born with or not, and the circumstances of your life may not have much to do with it. I expect she's just not a very empathetic person, just because of the way her particular brain is constructed. 

However, even though I don't blame her for not having empathy, I still woudln't want to hang around with her, just like I don't like to hang around anybody without empathy. Just like I wouldn't want to be their little buddy, like Jordyn was. 

That said, lacking empathy may have been a much easier way for Jessa to go through her own experiences in that house, because she wouldn't have felt the need to worry about anybody else. That might well have helped her to get through it with less damage than some may have experienced. And if she did then that's a good thing. 

When you combine nature and nurture you get a lot of surprising pluses and minuses, I think. 

Well I do agree with what you say.  I don't know Jessa and I think Jessa really tries to hide her true self.  I don't know if Jessa lacks empathy or her seeming lack of emotional availability is a protection mechanism of sorts.  Either way I still see most of the blame lies with the parents for all the kids.  And I a not one to usually automatically blame the parents.  The things I see the parents being responsible for are

1.  I still think Josh might have a shot in a normal family.

2. Jessa's coldness.

3.Jill's inability to cope with anything.

The list goes on and on.

PS I do think Ma and Pa Duggar and the tv show are both to blame.  Its just not a normal childhood in any respect and it may take a couple of generations before any kid in this family has a normal childhood.

Edited December 22, 2017 by flyingdi
Cause TV show makes more sense than rv show.

[EVS]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I'm the child of such people, in spades, and I have empathy, as do some other people in my family.  I'm the child of someone who, for example, sometimes held a knife to my throat if I said something that annoyed it while we were in the kitchen where knives were easily available, and I have empathy. Meanwhile, these non-empathetic progenitors of my family come from parents who, so far as we can tell, did have empathy. 

I’m so sorry you had to go through that. I can’t imagine how terrifying that must have been. 

[Churchhoney]

41 minutes ago, flyingdi said:

Well I do agree with what you say.  I don't know Jessa and I think Jessa really tries to hide her true self.  I don't know if Jessa lacks empathy or her seeming lack of emotional availability is a protection mechanism of sorts.  Either way I still see most of the blame lies with the parents for all the kids.  And I a not one to usually automatically blame the parents.  The things I see the parents being responsible for are

1.  I still think Josh might have a shot in a normal family.

2. Jessa's coldness.

3.Jill's inability to cope with anything.

The list goes on and on.

PS I do think Ma and Pa Duggar and the rv show are both to blame.  Its just not a normal childhood in any respect and it may take a couple of generations before any kid in this family has a normal childhood.

Yeah, I completely agree that JB and M have scads of responsibility for however their kids have turned out, and I don't blame the kids for their warping, either. I agree with you about Josh, too. I do think he's almost certainly a natural jerk to some extent, but a different life might well have minimized the jerkiness. 

 I do think that it's just hard to tell exactly which traits of somebody are their natural traits and which ones came in various ways from their warped upbringing is all.

JB and M are horrible people and horrible parents and they've left all of their kids a legacy of struggle of various kinds, even if the kids don't necessarily realize that at this point.  And, of course, Gothard and the tv show have contributed their own crap, as well. None of it should have been done to any kids, let alone to 19 of them. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Churchhoney

[bythelake]

52 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I completely agree that JB and M have scads of responsibility for however their kids have turned out, and I don't blame the kids for their warping, either. I agree with you about Josh, too. I do think he's almost certainly a natural jerk to some extent, but a different life might well have minimized the jerkiness. 

 I do think that it's just hard to tell exactly which traits of somebody are their natural traits and which ones came in various ways from their warped upbringing is all.

JB and M are horrible people and horrible parents and they've left all of their kids a legacy of struggle of various kinds, even if the kids don't necessarily realize that at this point.  And, of course, Gothard and the tv show have contributed their own crap, as well. None of it should have been done to any kids, let alone to 19 of them. 

@Churchhoney As time goes on, it will be interesting to see how these children fare, The married couples are not completely self- sufficient. Joe has no skills, and it doesn't seem that the younger boys have been taught a skill or a means to support themselves other than working odd jobs for their father. The younger girls will be married off, and heaven knows what will happen to Josie. 

And, yes they will struggle. They are unprepared and unfamiliar with the outside world. They have not been permitted to be educated. They have been isolated, and told to fear the outside world. They do not associate with people of different races and views. They have been beaten down to submission and have little spirit. They have watched their parents cover-up Josh's behavior, so they have learned lies and deception. 

JB and M are despicable. They hide under the cloak of religion. Their videos are laced with large doses of "Praise Jesus", they hand out Bible tracts and want the world to see how Godly they are. They're nothing but phonies ; they've perfected the act for the crowd. They love the publicity and the money.

If these children continue to stay under the thumb of their idiot parents, living in homes supplied by them and dependent on them for their survival, it will be a tragic situation, and when JB's money runs out it will be worse for the future generations. Very sad, indeed.

And, Church honey, you were brave and strong enough to leave a terrible situation. I have learned so much from your posts. I hope you have peace and contentment now.

[cmr2014]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

JB and M are horrible people and horrible parents and they've left all of their kids a legacy of struggle of various kinds, even if the kids don't necessarily realize that at this point.  And, of course, Gothard and the tv show have contributed their own crap, as well. None of it should have been done to any kids, let alone to 19 of them. 

I couldn't agree more. One deeply damaged child is sad, 19 is a crime.

I think that this is beginning to become apparent. It's been pretty clear to a lot of us for a long time, but I think that it's going to begin to drive away the humpers after a while. It's all beginning to stack up, and even the blindest of the fans has to begin to see that the children are not functioning.

* Josh's sexual abuse deserves its own special shout out, but I think the remaining humpers are willing to take either 1) He was young and didn't really understand what he was doing 2) He's atoned and Jesus forgives him or 3) it wasn't really a big deal, it was over the clothes, and the girls were sleeping anyway, but I think that the show took a huge, unrecoverable hit from that.

* Even the die-hard humpers were appalled by Josh's infidelity

* Jana and JD are pushing 30, unmarried, and sharing rooms with small children

* The CinderJana meme has appeared in the mainstream press, and the idea is going to start settling into people's consciencenesses

* Jill is an emotionally clingy mess

* Jill and Derick don't work, and they solicited money from fans for a "mission" that wasn't really a "mission" after all

* Jill isn't an engaged mother

* Jill is a terrible housekeeper, and can't really cook

* Jill takes no pride in her appearance and doesn't seem to concern herself with how her children look, either

* Jessa and Ben spent a year posting inflammatory tweets about Catholics and others who don't share their exact religious beliefs

* Jessa doesn't keep a clean house and she doesn't cook for her family

* Joy is a pregnant teenager

* Joe's wife is a pregnant teenager, and Joe's "job" is doing something something for his daddy

And, I think the older children are going to be the "success stories" of the family. As much as I think that they are turning off even the devoted fans, I think that the real damage is yet to be seen. The oldest children did have some normalcy when they were young. J'chelle was an engaged mother when the oldest 5-6 were small. I think that the younger ones are much more damaged.

The middle children -- say Joe to the twins are old enough to remember when JB and J'chelle had "anger issues," and there wasn't enough food in the house, and everyone was crammed into a tiny house. They are also young enough to have been as neglected as the youngest siblings, and the "sister-moms" weren't really old enough to provide them with any support. The howlers and the lost girls are just feral. They have literally been on television since birth, have had no actual education, and despite the fact that the family can afford food, I don't think they eat regularly. What that is going to look like as they reach adulthood is anybody's guess, but I don't think it will be pretty. I also don't think there will be too many people hanging around who still see them as a model Christian family.

ETA: I suppose it's not necessary to add this, but I will. As this whole thing goes swirling down the drain, I don't think it will phase JB and J'chelle one little bit. They'll continue preening and humble-bragging about how the Lord gave them so many kids, and they "do things just a bit differently," and they "trust in the Lord," and all of their other bs while remaining completely oblivious to the dumpster fire burning all around them.

Edited December 22, 2017 by cmr2014
One more thing . . .

[GeeGolly]

I think how each of these kids have internalized the fear based Christian beliefs they've been taught is a huge component on how they navigate the world. Those beliefs will follow them into adulthood. When children grow up and move out of the home it allows them distance and a new perspective of their family. Its harder to have that same distance in an abstract belief even when in a different environment.

I also think having children themselves allows them an opportunity to see their parents/family in a different light. But again if they've truly embraced a set of skewed beliefs it continues to blur any new perspectives.

Typically the younger children in a family are raised in a more relaxed environment than their older siblings. It would be interesting to see how different the Lost Girls are from Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy.

And lastly when we look at nature verses nurture its hard not to put a lot of blame on JB & M because most children have many other influences in their lives other than their parents. Not so much with the Duggar 19.

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I couldn't agree more. One deeply damaged child is sad, 19 is a crime.

I think that this is beginning to become apparent. It's been pretty clear to a lot of us for a long time, but I think that it's going to begin to drive away the humpers after a while. It's all beginning to stack up, and even the blindest of the fans has to begin to see that the children are not functioning.

* Josh's sexual abuse deserves its own special shout out, but I think the remaining humpers are willing to take either 1) He was young and didn't really understand what he was doing 2) He's atoned and Jesus forgives him or 3) it wasn't really a big deal, it was over the clothes, and the girls were sleeping anyway, but I think that the show took a huge, unrecoverable hit from that.

* Even the die-hard humpers were appalled by Josh's infidelity

* Jana and JD are pushing 30, unmarried, and sharing rooms with small children

* The CinderJana meme has appeared in the mainstream press, and the idea is going to start settling into people's consciencenesses

* Jill is an emotionally clingy mess

* Jill and Derick don't work, and they solicited money from fans for a "mission" that wasn't really a "mission" after all

* Jill isn't an engaged mother

* Jill is a terrible housekeeper, and can't really cook

* Jill takes no pride in her appearance and doesn't seem to concern herself with how her children look, either

* Jessa and Ben spent a year posting inflammatory tweets about Catholics and others who don't share their exact religious beliefs

* Jessa doesn't keep a clean house and she doesn't cook for her family

* Joy is a pregnant teenager

* Joe's wife is a pregnant teenager, and Joe's "job" is doing something something for his daddy

And, I think the older children are going to be the "success stories" of the family. As much as I think that they are turning off even the devoted fans, I think that the real damage is yet to be seen. The oldest children did have some normalcy when they were young. J'chelle was an engaged mother when the oldest 5-6 were small. I think that the younger ones are much more damaged.

The middle children -- say Joe to the twins are old enough to remember when JB and J'chelle had "anger issues," and there wasn't enough food in the house, and everyone was crammed into a tiny house. They are also young enough to have been as neglected as the youngest siblings, and the "sister-moms" weren't really old enough to provide them with any support. The howlers and the lost girls are just feral. They have literally been on television since birth, have had no actual education, and despite the fact that the family can afford food, I don't think they eat regularly. What that is going to look like as they reach adulthood is anybody's guess, but I don't think it will be pretty. I also don't think there will be too many people hanging around who still see them as a model Christian family.

ETA: I suppose it's not necessary to add this, but I will. As this whole thing goes swirling down the drain, I don't think it will phase JB and J'chelle one little bit. They'll continue preening and humble-bragging about how the Lord gave them so many kids, and they "do things just a bit differently," and they "trust in the Lord," and all of their other bs while remaining completely oblivious to the dumpster fire burning all around them.

Wow, big yes to all of this. And the thing about fearing that the messed-up older kids are going to be the success stories -- absolutely. Because there's really nobody to help the younger kids out at all and they're neglected as hell. Their horrible parents bouncing off to the Bahamas right before Christmas without a care in the world. And Jana simply can't have done a reasonable job raising 14 or 15 kids by the time she's in her late 20s. Such a tragedy. And, as you say, the perps are quite self-satisfied so far and likely will remain self-satisfied in the future, if what we know about people like them holds true, and I expect it does. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Churchhoney

[laurakaye]

19 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Dissociation. Been there, done that. We can only hope that she has some inner life in there that is promising her that if she holds on until she's 18 she can flee. That's the only thing that got me past my suicidal deadness at that age. Unfortunately, she sees little hope of that in her own family and unlucky lucky me she doesn't get to go to school or anywhere else where she can see other people living other lives. She doesn't even get to read books about it. 

This is the saddest thing of all, because who is there in her life to inform her that there are things she can do and places she can go?  I look at that sweet child and want to give her a hug and tell her that she has a brain, she can learn and study and read and travel and find something she's really good at, but is there an actual person in her small little world to let her know that there's something better for her?  Certainly not her stupid parents, and most likely not her pseudo-mom Jana, because she herself is firmly stuck under JB's thumb.  If she doesn't know, how can she do anything about it?  It breaks my heart.

 

15 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I don't blame Jessa for not having empathy. I have a feeling it's just something you're born with or not, and the circumstances of your life may not have much to do with it. I expect she's just not a very empathetic person, just because of the way her particular brain is constructed. 

I never connected the dots before, but the girls that were molested by Josh are then told that they need to raise the younger kids, because Michelle is too busy baking more J's in her oven.  I have no clue how one event influences the other, but if Jill/Jessa/?? were told by their "parents" that what their brother did was wrong but they needed to forgive him and move on, how does that mindset then affect how they raise their younger siblings?  I would think a certain amount of disconnecting would've had to have happened to the older girls...so how could they be a positive presence for their younger siblings?  Could Josh's actions have affected each and every one of his siblings, even the ones who weren't born yet?

Edited December 22, 2017 by laurakaye

[Arwen Evenstar]

On 12/20/2017 at 0:05 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

In recent years I've actually wondered whether I have a toe into the autism spectrum, as the more I learn about it the more certain things begin to sound very familiar. But 50+years ago when I was growing up, it was just a constant litany of ""Jyn is just always in her own little world".

You wouldn’t be alone. I’ve long wondered the same thing about myself.   My father was always described by my mom as living in a world of his own. Dad was brilliant.  Jordyn was never allowed an education, so if she has a spectrum disorder, it might play out in ways because she’s never been allowed to express anything but happy. It really hurt my heart to see her there, so shy, and sad.  Forcing a shy child to participate in something when she’s not even used to having any attention is just so sad to watch.

[duggarshow]

On 12/20/2017 at 9:38 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

I do a lot of rubbing my hands/twining my fingers when I'm nervous, or even just talking to pretty much anyone. It's sort of a self-soothing behaviour, but I don't even need to be all that stressed to do it. Never really thought about it that much before. Huh. It could just be a nervous habit and not indicative of any real trauma, or it could be a silent cry for help, but as armchair psychologists, I guess we really don't have all that much to go on. There's an awful lot of conjecture and speculation in our "diagnoses" sometimes...

 

I wish I could like this a gazillion times.

[Mollie]

Jordyn isn't shy.  She always had a lot to say for her TLC interviews for the cameramen on the show and she was quite animated.  She always laughed and had a great time playing with niece Mackynzie and sister Josie.  In the birthday video, she only retracts from her mother, not from her father.

I think she has a reactive attachment disorder (RAD) to Michelle.  She can barely stand to listen to her talk, but she knows she has to or suffer dire consequences.  And, she doesn't want Michelle to touch her, even hiding her hand behind her back so Michelle can't reach it.  As soon as Michelle backs off, Jordyn smiles and reaches for her birthday presents. 

For her birthday greeting from Michelle last year, Michelle said to her, "You love to hold babies and be a helper anywhere, laundry, dishes, cleaning, organizing, playing with younger ones and helping other mommies with their little ones!! "  That was a clear indication that, at eight-years-old, Jordyn was nothing more than a child slave. Here's one of Jordyn's baby pictures:  

 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Mollie

[Celia Rubenstein]

19 minutes ago, Mollie said:

Jordyn isn't shy.  She always had a lot to say for her TLC interviews for the cameramen on the show and she was quite animated.  She always laughed and had a great time playing with cousin Mackynzie and sister Josie.  In the birthday video, she only retracts from her mother, not from her father.

I think she has a reactive attachment disorder (RAD) to Michelle.  She can barely stand to listen to her talk, but she knows she has to or suffer dire consequences.  And, she doesn't want Michelle to touch her, even hiding her hand behind her back so Michelle can't reach it.  As soon as Michelle backs off, Jordyn smiles and reaches for her birthday presents. 

For her birthday greeting from Michelle last year, Michelle said to her, "You love to hold babies and be a helper anywhere, laundry, dishes, cleaning, organizing, playing with younger ones and helping other mommies with their little ones!! "  That was a clear indication that, at eight-years-old, Jordyn was nothing more than a child slave. Here's one of Jordyn's baby pictures:  

 

Children don't develop reactive attachment disorder towards one individual in particular.  It is a condition that effects their ability to interact with everyone around them, not just the one parent that presumably neglected them. 

That being said, it it is entirely possible that Jordan feels uncomfortable around Michelle - doesn't like her, doesn't respect her, doesn't trust her. They may have little or no bond at all. But imo Jordyn shows no signs of actually suffering from reactive attachment disorder, which is a very serious psychological condition.

 

1 hour ago, duggarfan said:

I wish I could like this a gazillion times.

Agreed!

[ChiCricket]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:29 PM, Sew Sumi said:

FU Internetz!!!!! We threw a party for Jordyn! 

And what's with Mechelle and the apron all of a sudden? She fools no one. 

Wow,I didn't realize how much she recoiled from Michelle. Weird

[madpsych78]

3 hours ago, Mollie said:

Jordyn isn't shy.  She always had a lot to say for her TLC interviews for the cameramen on the show and she was quite animated.  She always laughed and had a great time playing with cousin Mackynzie and sister Josie.  In the birthday video, she only retracts from her mother, not from her father.

I think she has a reactive attachment disorder (RAD) to Michelle.  She can barely stand to listen to her talk, but she knows she has to or suffer dire consequences.  And, she doesn't want Michelle to touch her, even hiding her hand behind her back so Michelle can't reach it.  As soon as Michelle backs off, Jordyn smiles and reaches for her birthday presents. 

For her birthday greeting from Michelle last year, Michelle said to her, "You love to hold babies and be a helper anywhere, laundry, dishes, cleaning, organizing, playing with younger ones and helping other mommies with their little ones!! "  That was a clear indication that, at eight-years-old, Jordyn was nothing more than a child slave. Here's one of Jordyn's baby pictures:  

 

That's actually Jennifer, not Jordyn, that Jana is holding.

I don't believe that Jordyn has Reactive Attachment Disorder because it has to impact all attachments, not just with Michelle. I do think that Michelle is a textbook case of a narcissistic mother.

[Churchhoney]

9 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

Wow,I didn't realize how much she recoiled from Michelle. Weird

Seems pretty clear that she really really really really really doesn't like her. Or trust her. Good call, Jordyn. Great pity for the kid, though. Especially now that they're down to just one sister-mom, who also has to do all the other duty around the place. These younger kids must be neglected as hell. 

And as I keep harping, there are still NINE under-age kids in that house, counting the guardian child. It's like a poorly staffed orphan asylum. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Churchhoney

[Catfin]

31 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Seems pretty clear that she really really really really really doesn't like her. Or trust her. Good call, Jordyn. Great pity for the kid, though. Especially now that they're down to just one sister-mom, who also has to do all the other duty around the place. These younger kids must be neglected as hell. 

And as I keep harping, there are still NINE under-age kids in that house, counting the guardian child. It's like a poorly staffed orphan asylum. 

What are the staffing ratios at the local daycare center? Somewhere around 4:1 after infant age. What a cluster these poor kids grew up in. 

[louannems]

And Ma and Pops are galavanting around the Bahamas at Christmas Time!  While the orphanage runs itself.

[xwordfanatik]

Ma & Pa have no sense of shame, and that is a damn shame.  Spitting out baby after baby to be raised by sister-moms is vile.  What a loathsome pair of phonies.

[MamaMax]

On 12/20/2017 at 11:18 AM, Mollie said:

That's Jesssa's real hair, before she got the hair extensions.  She was 16.

Interesting. Proof?

 

On 12/20/2017 at 0:21 PM, ginger90 said:

Apparently Dolly Parton can read people and situations well.

What's this about?

 

On 12/20/2017 at 2:58 PM, FakeJoshDuggar said:

I’m not body language expert but Jordyn’s body language screams, “don’t touch me!”

I bet Michelle pinches her. That's a reaction kids have to their sibling who is a known pincher. 

[Sew Sumi]

I can answer the Dolly Parton part. The family was at Dollywood when Jordyn was an infant. When Dolly held her, she was all smiles and cooing. Dolly made a dash to the door, declaring that she wanted to steal Jordyn. 

She certainly would have had a better life had Dolly actually ran off with her. 

[Caracoa1]

They are millionaires....they should be ashamed....shopping at thrift stores for clothes that should be available to people living paycheck to paycheck.

[Temperance]

I don't go to thriftstores, but it's worth pointing that Americans clothes are notoriously cheap. These people choose thriftstores, because Walmart, Burlington, Old Navy, etc. are too "expensive". Heck I do shop at Outlets occasionally and many of what are considered high-end brands are really cheap. I don't know how any of these compare to thriftstore, but I would some of the deals I've gotten would be comparable. ($2, $4 for a t-shirt)

Even before they were on TLC, JB spent 250,000 dollars on a non-successful state senate campaign. They probably could have bought an entire wardrobe for all the kids at Old Navy or Walmart for 10,000. (Although I realise the girls would have probably had to buy their long skirts somewhere else.)

All these people impressed with their ability to save money don't seem to realise  we live in a country where cheap clothes are plentiful and anybody can find great deals at non-thrift stores or thrift stores if they look hard enough. 

Edited December 24, 2017 by Temperance

[cmr2014]

31 minutes ago, Temperance said:

I don't go to thriftstores, but it's worth pointing that Americans clothes are notoriously cheap. These people choose thriftstores, because Walmart, Burlington, Old Navy, etc. are too "expensive". Heck I do shop at Outlets occasionally and many of what are considered high-end brands are really cheap. I don't know how any of these compare to thriftstore, but I would some of the deals I've gotten would be comparable. ($2, $4 for a t-shirt)

Even before they were on TLC, JB spent 250,000 dollars on a non-successful state senate campaign. They probably could have bought an entire wardrobe for all the kids at Old Navy or Walmart for 10,000. (Although I realise the girls would have probably had to buy their long skirts somewhere else.)

All these people impressed with their ability to save money don't seem to realise  we live in a country where cheap clothes are plentiful and anybody can find great deals at non-thrift stores or thrift stores if they look hard enough. 

I used to shop at thrift stores way back when I first graduated from college. Back then you could get good quality sweaters and suits and put together a decent wardrobe based on thrift store finds. The fact is, though, that clothes today are cheaply made and made with low quality materials. New clothes fall apart too fast to ever make it to a thrift store in good shape.

I agree that the girls could put together much nicer outfits from outlet stores at comparable prices. Their clothes would at least fit if they did. The problem with that, of course, is that lots of people shop at outlet malls and they couldn't beat people over the head with their "thrifty" ways.