Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[CountryGirl]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:59 PM, Salacious Kitty said:

Jill is a work in progress. She's never going to completely deconstruct, the same as Jinger. She is very being influenced by Derick, and will likely settle in where he lands theologically and politically. She mentioned that her therapist "points her to God," so she's never going to be what some people hope she would become. I just accept that she's going to remain a conservative Christian, and that they will likely never apologize for previous slights, including the Jazz mess. Instead, I focus on the positive growth she's made by distancing herself from the major parts of toxicity in her life. It takes guts to take on a jackass like Jim Bob. 

Nodding along to all of this.

I haven't read the book - yet - but from the snippets, I have seen the following:

Jill calls her abuser a "monster." I repeat, she called him a "monster," which is exactly what he was and is. 

She calls out her abuser's chief enabler Jim-Boob (although Mechelle is just as complicit) as treating her worse than her "pedophile brother." Calling him by his name. Also sharing how her parents' support for her abuser, especially when it came to guarding his privacy and against public humiliation (unlike her and Jessa on the dog & pony Megyn Kelly event) made her "sick to her core."

She calls out Jim-Boob for being "verbally abusive," which he absolutely is as well as emotionally abusive.  She also called out his physically intimidating her by showing "aggression."

Her revealing her humiliation and pain when Jim-Boob's response to her wearing pants was to give her a book on modesty and how all her life, she had tried to show respect to him but questioning when he was going to show the same to her. 

Her confirmation that she was using birth control after the near-catastrophic delivery with Samuel and sharing that amidst the devastation that she might never have another child, she was "relieved" and "appreciated the excuse not to have to go through a zillion pregnancies and deliveries." 

Anyone who has gone through the trauma of abuse knows that speaking aloud the abuse is incredibly difficult. The feelings of shame and that it was somehow your fault. The not wanting to be seen as someone's victim. It's the fear of not being believed. It's the fear of getting your abuser into trouble. It's the fear of them having zero repercussions.  It's why so many survivors never tell anyone. It's why I kept silent for more than 20 years. 

You add in Jill's upbringing where she was taught to be the background to her pedophile abuser's foreground as the "annointed one," where she wasn't believed because "that didn't happen, Jill," which allowed the abuse to continue, to "well, it was nothing really," to rugsweeping and forgiving him because she is a Christian, and you need to tell the world that it was nothing really, and her speaking out, calling out the abuse and her abuser, and his enablers, is HUGE. 

She has shown tremendous growth in the past several years and if her voicing the truth of what happened to her as a child and more recently, which cannot be overstated, were the limit of her actions? That's leaps and bounds from where she started. 

Izzy and Sam have attended public school and it appears they are back in public school. 

Who she is now is not the red-pinafore wearing people pleaser nor the tearful young woman citing chapter and verse of the company line on MK's show (and don't even get me started on knowing now that her abuser was right there on the set with her). 

Which is not to say she and her husband don't have problematic beliefs but for Jill, especially, for me to expect her to shed 3 + decades of indoctrination overnight is a fool's errand. It's not realistic whatsoever. 

But who knows what the next 3 decades will bring for her?

As a fellow CSAB survivor, I applaud her for the actions she has taken to call her abuse and abuser by their names and also call out those who enabled him. 

That takes a shitload of courage when everything inside of you is screaming to keep that deep, dark secret and take it to the grave. 

[CountryGirl]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:20 AM, Suzn said:

Changes can fall in two categories - those that benefit Jill and Derick and those that benefit others.  I don't see any change that has happened or will happen that is of benefit to anyone else.

Jill speaking out about what happened to her with respect to the sexual abuse alone is a tremendous change and may very well give other survivors the courage to voice what happened to them. 

That is no small thing. 

[Valerie]

Updating myself: another 14 copies of CtC were ordered at my library for a grand total of 46!

I'm still stuck at #40 in line LOL

Get that money, Jill!

[Natalie68]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:03 PM, libgirl2 said:

Birthday  gift card..... I bought the book. 

Same fellow Virgo (I assume)!

[Natalie68]

On 9/25/2023 at 12:18 AM, GeeGolly said:

I recently read an article about an upcoming movie - I think the title is I Can. Its about a couple who were having an affair and got pregnant. The daughter, who is a softball phenom, was born with a partially formed arm and her parents thought the birth anomaly was God's way of punishing them for the affair. 100% of the proceeds of the movie will be donated.

It got me wondering - have either Jill or Jinger talked about donating any of the profits of their books? Or is Jill, because her book focused a lot on money, doing anything to help protect other reality show or YouTube kids from being unpaid employees? They both have huge platforms and wrote books about difficult childhoods, which gives them opportunities to help others in ways others can't.

Unfortunately, in these days of religious division and YouTube families, neither of them are all that unique. I think their books do raise awareness in and of themselves, but why not use their passion and money to champion others?

Not that I am aware of and frankly, after reading they were paid nothing, I hope Jill, especially, makes bank.  I am in the middle of the book and I feel very differently about Jill than I used to.  I do think Jill would be helpful in a Paul Petersen sort of way and speak out about the rights and protections for reality kids.  But I think getting her story out and healing is the 1st order of business.

I feel very differently than many of you  re Jana and being a Gothard Girl.  She says 'It didn't occur to me at all how strange, unsafe and unwise it was'.  I think it was an important revelation that she recognizes how fucked up it was to BE a GG.  And we all knew Jana was a Gothard Girl already.  It wasn't as though she let the cat out of the bag.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Natalie68

[libgirl2]

35 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

Same fellow Virgo (I assume)!

Yes! I just finished the prologue. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by libgirl2

[lascuba]

On 9/25/2023 at 11:11 PM, CalicoKitty said:

We don't know how philanthropic they are.  A lot of people, myself included, donate without wanting or expecting any publicity.  And it is no one else's business if/how much anyone donates.  That is a private decision that everyone has the freedom to decide for themself.

Sure, but I was responding to the comment about Jill possibly donating proceeds from the book. It's no one's business, but it makes no sense to me to assume that she would when she has zero history of doing so, quite the opposite considering Dillard Family Ministries.

On 9/25/2023 at 6:59 PM, satrunrose said:

I agree with this completely. I don't see healing/money as a binary either, though. Probably I'm biased (helping profession) but it's very possible to do something because you see it as important (recruiting for Gothard was the official motivation for the series, Jill and Jinger being candid about their childhoods make those cults look less appealing) and because you like getting paid. If Renee Rod runs off with some cute, blue-haired girl at Walmart and manages to wrangle a book deal, I'm going to be happy that she is getting something out of her screwed up childhood, not shake my head at her for monetizing her misery.

I'm not morally opposed to them making money (that doesn't come from harassing and exploiting people in developing countries, that is). It's more the assumption that Jill is all about the truth telling and the money is just a side effect.

On 9/26/2023 at 2:51 AM, quarks said:

I'm not sure I can agree with this. Memoirs from Hollywood stars and the vast majority of contemporary politicians and/or people hoping to make the talk show circuit, sure. 

Others, maybe not.

I'm not at all sure we can classify, say, The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, or Elie Weisel's Night, or Richard Wright's Black Boy, or even, on a more cheery note, Born Free, as self-promotion tools: the point of all of these was to draw attention to specific situations, not to specific authors. Other memoirs were written in hopes of recording specific cultures perceived as lost or dying, or major historical events, or major historical personages - not so much the authors themselves. And of course other memoirs have been published anonymously.

Can Jill's book be compared to any of these? Probably not - certainly not Night.  And I do think self-promotion - or at least, self-defense - was one of her goals here. I just don't think it was her only goal, or even her main one. She seems at least somewhat interested in drawing attention to the issues with reality TV shows (even if she's frustratingly vague on many filming details), which kinda sorta puts her closer to some of the memoirs I mentioned, and may have been what she told herself she was doing. She seems equally motivated in getting some sort of revenge for the In Touch story, something she describes as worse than the original molestation, even while admitting that one of its effects was to give her nightmares of the original molestation. Not nightmares of In Touch, but the molestation. 

And her ghostwriter wanted to present her as the protagonist of a story of good and evil, with Jill and Derick as the good heroes (Derick is even frequently described as a good man), with JB, surprisingly, as the main villain of the piece (surprisingly because this is a story that includes Josh Duggar), and with various side characters, including the supporting character with the mysterious motivations, Michelle, who shows up to the rescue at the last minute, just like a movie.

Jill's had a lifetime of having her life edited for entertainment purposes, so I'm not sure how much she even noticed how well the ghostwriter shaped her memoir into this narrative. But it did leave me noticing just how much was left unexplored/unexamined here - notably, everything that didn't fit into that narrative, like most of the missionary stuff and the full story of Derick's tweets.

It's all still self-promotion, even if it's for a bigger purpose like Douglass and Weisel (and my god, it it painful to see those names anywhere near Jill's). It's not a bad thing on it's own. I just object to the saintly, altruistic Jill narrative.

I agree with your points about the book generally, from all the excerpts I've read. Revenge against In Touch and the government officials who released the reports is definitely a factor. I think the things left unexplored have to be deliberate....they're trying to appeal to a more secular audience, and that's not going to fly if they get into the nitty gritty of no-help missionary work and their entrenched bigotry.

[GeeGolly]

Similar to what @lascuba(?) said...

Jill should be applauded for her bravery - full stop.

However I don't think criticizing her should be off limits. I mean she just posted a reel that's basically a full commercial for swimming lessons, featuring her, her (faceless) kids and Derick. So her kids are earning their swimming lessons. And yes, swimming lessons are great, that's why parents all over work hard earning money to pay for their kids to learn. Jill should shill her little heart away, but not for kid products using her kids if she feels she was exploited as a kid.

Jill and Jinger's eyes have been partially opened, they bravely spoke out against their childhoods, but they are still very much like Jessa, Joy and Jana. I can applaud Jill and Jinger, I can hope for the best for them both, but I can also call them out on their shit.

 

[Gemma Violet]

Video from the NYC book promotion:

(Side note: Derick knows Star Trek.)

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Gemma Violet

[katycat74]

34 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Video from the NYC book promotion:

(Side note: Derick knows Star Trek.)

 

And we got a Frank Sun cameo!  It's nice to know they've kept in touch. He seems so nice. I imagine all those years of filming made the camera guys seem like family.

[auntieminem]

 

Just now, katycat74 said:

And we got a Frank Sun cameo!  It's nice to know they've kept in touch. He seems so nice. I imagine all those years of filming made the camera guys seem like family.

I just started to post about meeting up with Frank. Probably would have been an interesting conversation. 

[katycat74]

7 minutes ago, auntieminem said:

 

I just started to post about meeting up with Frank. Probably would have been an interesting conversation. 

Oh, I would have loved to be a fly on the wall there, lol.

[Salacious Kitty]

Interesting tidbit from an interview with the LA Times. 

Do you have thoughts about how the industry can operate more ethically, particularly when it comes to children? Should kids really even be on TV?

Duggar: Having grown up on reality TV, I feel like kids should have more protections in place. I don't know exactly what that would look like. But I do know that it's a constant struggle for parents our age, even just trying to figure out what degree to involve your kids on social media. The problem can grow out of hand very quickly when you rely on your children for the show to continue and without them there is no content.

Dillard: There's [nothing] to make sure kids are protected as far as their education goes. If a family sees an opportunity to make money, they can justify taking away their kids' time [in school] because, well, they don't need education, they can just have this money to support them. Jill can attest to this, but from what we can tell, none of her siblings really had much education past the seventh grade. A lot of that was due to the show taking over. It was like, “Well, if the show requires most of the filming hours during the weekday, then school is not really that important.

[GeeGolly]

Multiple different family members have said they filmed at most about three days a week for a couple hours a day - when the were filming, which was not year round. And other times they showed up for events.

Is Derick saying from Joe (who was 13 when the show started) on up had a stellar education prior to the show? And the last bunch of kids, from Jackson to Josie were all under 10 years old when the show ended, so what's the excuse for them?

Derick never ceases to amaze me in the way he can twist facts to fit his narrative.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Interesting tidbit from an interview with the LA Times. 

 

 

That doesn't surprise me they showed one of the boys I think James who was twelve or thirteen doing third grade math and another episode show their educational boxes in the attic. Not to mention teaching bankruptcy to young kids. Seventh grade is generous. But in the Duggar case I'm not sure if they would have been educated any better without the show. JB and Michelle have not ever placed any importance on education and it shows. 

[Ohiopirate02]

9 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Multiple different family members have said they filmed at most about three days a week for a couple hours a day - when the were filming, which was not year round. And other times they showed up for events.

Is Derick saying from Joe (who was 13 when the show started) on up had a stellar education prior to the show? And the last bunch of kids, from Jackson to Josie were all under 10 years old when the show ended, so what's the excuse for them?

Derick never ceases to amaze me in the way he can twist facts to fit his narrative.

It is rather convenient that Derick frames his response like the Duggar kids were going to a regular in-person school and not being homeschooled.  

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It is rather convenient that Derick frames his response like the Duggar kids were going to a regular in-person school and not being homeschooled.  

Or the fact 19 Kids only filmed for 7 years. During that time most of the kids were already high school age or under 10. So he's basically calling the Howlers on down idiots, but he doesn't explain what interfered with the Lost Girls education seeing as they were barely filmed past 2015, so most of their schooling has been camera free. Derick already told us Jill is more educated than most, so shouldn't the Lost Girls have the same 'wonderful' education Jill and the older ones had?

It couldn't be that ALL Duggar kids are poorly educated and camera have nothing to do with it. 🤔

Edited September 29, 2023 by GeeGolly

[crazy8s]

31 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

It couldn't be the ALL Duggar kids are poorly educated and camera have nothing to do with it. 🤔

I think the duggar offspring would possibly be less educated without the show, since that gave them access to multiple laptops and whatever program for most of the kids. Without that they would be the Rod kids passing down ancient school books to sort for themselves. Anyone think Meech, Bin, Tabby Paine, Jrod can teach anything beyond the basics, even if they tried?

The old jurisdiction charts showed very little "school" time. Bible time, 2 hrs of wisdom booklet time, checklist/jurisdiction time. School things listed at the end of the list included music practice, typing practice, bible copy.

This was way back when the younger girls took afternoon naps.

Jackson and Johannah were shown with a single laptop doing basic algebra when Jackson was probably 16. My oldest grand did that course last year at age 11.

JB wanted the kids uneducated and dependent on the headship and always to work only toward JB's desire to make money.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, crazy8s said:

I think the duggar offspring would possibly be less educated without the show, since that gave them access to multiple laptops and whatever program for most of the kids. Without that they would be the Rod kids passing down ancient school books to sort for themselves. Anyone think Meech, Bin, Tabby Paine, Jrod can teach anything beyond the basics, even if they tried?

The old jurisdiction charts showed very little "school" time. Bible time, 2 hrs of wisdom booklet time, checklist/jurisdiction time. School things listed at the end of the list included music practice, typing practice, bible copy.

This was way back when the younger girls took afternoon naps.

Jackson and Johannah were shown with a single laptop doing basic algebra when Jackson was probably 16. My oldest grand did that course last year at age 11.

JB wanted the kids uneducated and dependent on the headship and always to work only toward JB's desire to make money.

Yikes, great point. I never thought of it that way.

[Notabug]

On 9/28/2023 at 11:57 PM, GeeGolly said:

Multiple different family members have said they filmed at most about three days a week for a couple hours a day - when the were filming, which was not year round. And other times they showed up for events.

I don't think I trust the word of multiple different family members any more than I trust Derrick's.  I could see JB &M telling the kids what to say in order to make it seem like filming the show was not consuming a lot of their time.  Just like Jill and Jessa were coached before the Megyn Kelly interview.

I do agree, though, that Derrick is talking out of his a** when he says that filming the show was at the heart of the poor education all the Duggar kids received.

[Salacious Kitty]

Whatever the reason, it's clear that Boobchelle never valued education. That was made clear on the show when at the show's peak, around the time of Jill and Jessa's weddings, teenaged James was filmed using multiplication flash cards with buddy Jill. Something he should have mastered before he was 10. Where was the oversight?

[CalicoKitty]

3 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Whatever the reason, it's clear that Boobchelle never valued education. That was made clear on the show when at the show's peak, around the time of Jill and Jessa's weddings, teenaged James was filmed using multiplication flash cards with buddy Jill. Something he should have mastered before he was 10. Where was the oversight?

Or he has needed extra remedial help and a professional to help him find his method of learning.  Both ignored by his parents and the Wisdom Book education system.  I think education is for show only in this family.  Uneducated children are easier to control.

[Gemma Violet]

On 9/29/2023 at 9:57 AM, GeeGolly said:

So he's basically calling the Howlers on down idiots

I respectfully disagree.  Just because a person is uneducated does not make them a stupid person and Derick did not say or imply anyone was stupid.  He was talking about education.  They may be sadly ignorant of certain facts, but that's not really being stupid--they simply were not exposed to a good education.  My grandmother had a third-grade education and she was far from stupid.

[GeeGolly]

40 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

I respectfully disagree.  Just because a person is uneducated does not make them a stupid person and Derick did not say or imply anyone was stupid.  He was talking about education.  They may be sadly ignorant of certain facts, but that's not really being stupid--they simply were not exposed to a good education.  My grandmother had a third-grade education and she was far from stupid.

You're absolutely right.

It is kind of ironic Derick framed JB&M's thought process as prioritizing the show over education because the kids "can just have this money to support them", when Jill just wrote a book sharing how JB wasn't paying anyone.

[satrunrose]

I think it was all JBs plan. In his idea world, he was going to have a compound full of sons and sons-in-law doing various unskilled and semi-skilled labouring jobs to keep the JB empire rolling while the women pumped out baby after baby, joyfully bringing them along to be featured on A Thousand Grand-Kids and Counting, season 25. JB our holy patriarch, would be benevolently controlling the purse strings for everybody. 

I think JB legitimately did see the money as supporting everybody, without ever wanting them to control a dime of that money independently.

[GeeGolly]

45 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

I think it was all JBs plan. In his idea world, he was going to have a compound full of sons and sons-in-law doing various unskilled and semi-skilled labouring jobs to keep the JB empire rolling while the women pumped out baby after baby, joyfully bringing them along to be featured on A Thousand Grand-Kids and Counting, season 25. JB our holy patriarch, would be benevolently controlling the purse strings for everybody. 

I think JB legitimately did see the money as supporting everybody, without ever wanting them to control a dime of that money independently.

Unfortunately for JB he would have to be Mick Jagger for that plan to work. The average person spends well over a million dollars in a lifetime. He would need much more than single digit millions to support his growing clan. As it is now, depending on how many kidults are still in the fold, JB will likely run out of money, sooner rather than later.

[BetyBee]

On Reddit today, they are discussing JBoob's reaction to Jill's book. Apparently he is still supporting Gothard and IBLP and thinks the kids owe their lives to Gothard. Of course he's so filled with the love of the Lord, that he also threatens to cut any child who speaks out in support of Jill's book that they will lose their inheritance. As if that's not all going towards lawyers for Josh for his actual criming!  I'm beginning to think that JimBob's true god is money and it's galling him that there's no way to get his grubby mitts on Jill's money from the book! I hope she makes a bundle!

[Laura Holt]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

As it is now, depending on how many kidults are still in the fold, JB will likely run out of money, sooner rather than later.

Jill and Jinger are being very wise not to depend on the future inheritance. Partly because JimBob isn't exactly 90 and teetering on the brink but mainly because as you say I would wonder how much money that would actually amount to in the fullness of time.  He may be a shrewd investor sitting on millions - maybe - but even so split 19 ways it still isn't going to amount to an inheritance that would keep any of them on easy street.   

[cmr2014]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:50 AM, crazy8s said:

JB wanted the kids uneducated and dependent on the headship and always to work only toward JB's desire to make money.

I think that this is the most important point. If JB and J'chelle had valued education, they would have found a way to make it happen -- with or without the show. they don't, and it shows.

JB doesn't want his kids to know things he doesn't know, and he absolutely doesn't want them to have employment opportunities outside of his "Umbrella of Authority."

I don't think J'chelle cares, or thinks about it at all. She's told us over and over that she likes babies and "doesn't have a heart for children," and I believe her.

I think Derick's assessment of seventh grade is generous.

[lianau]

I've  just seen Derick described as a slightly nicer version of JB and I think  it really pointed out my problems with the  current Jill and Derick dynamic . How much of this is Jill driving it  and how much of it  is Derick trying to get one over JB , knowing that Free Jinger  Jill is a thing and would get him support? The guy went to law school just to one up his wife's father and most of his beef seems to be centered around money, not religious teachings.  He's on the book cover , sitting in interviews of what's supposed to be Jill's story. I just  hope Jill isn't exchanging one  personal cult leader for another one. 

[Meow Mix]

Regarding the inheritance, I hope more of the kids realize this is an empty threat.  JB is far from dying and he has made it clear the no one is seeing a dime until he and Michelle are both gone.  That's a lot of years and a lot of money down the road particularly if one of them needs a lot of care at some point in the future.  I know from my maternal grandmother that long term care is a huge cost.  

I do hope that down the road, Jill will help with advocacy much like Paul Peterson has done.  I know he has been trying to get laws in place to protect children on reality shows, but I doubt that has gotten very far.  I do agree though, that Derick is full of it when he claims that the Duggar kids education would have been better without the show.  The wisdom books were their education and those are abysmal.  Even Kelly Bates wouldn't use them for education.  

I will say that I am not sure what to believe about filming.  Jill says in the book that school did get pushed to the side for filming.  She also makes it clear the JB farmed the kids out all over the place and they had more film crews than just TLC coming to the house.  Jill says that one South Korean crew kept them working from early in the morning till almost midnight while they were there.  I suspect that the $8M JB made from TLC may have only been part of what he made off the kids' labor.  It's no wonder he had such a huge freak out when Jill and Derick finally pushed back.  He was seeing the possibility of his income and ego boost drying up.

[Laura Holt]

35 minutes ago, lianau said:

The guy went to law school just to one up his wife's father and most of his beef seems to be centered around money, not religious teachings.

I don't know enough about Derick to say why he went to law school but I've got two nieces in law school right now and it's challenging (to say the least).  He may or may not have decided to go to law school to one up his father-in-law but staying in school, graduating, and passing the bar are things I think he needs to get credit for.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Laura Holt

[monkeypox]

Quote

Jill and Jinger are being very wise not to depend on the future inheritance. Partly because JimBob isn't exactly 90 and teetering on the brink but mainly because as you say I would wonder how much money that would actually amount to in the fullness of time.  He may be a shrewd investor sitting on millions - maybe - but even so split 19 ways it still isn't going to amount to an inheritance that would keep any of them on easy street. 

Plus, if MEEEchelle dies at any time before JimBob, he's fathering as many more kids as he can. If God smites her dead tomorrow, JimBob has plenty of time to produce more spawn. They won't be fighting over 1/91th of an inheritance, more like 1/40th. 

[Salacious Kitty]

Well, that won't concern Jill. She was likely written out of the trust the moment her book was announced. 

[monkeypox]

Exactly. I think Jill/Derick made the right choice, for so many reasons.

Edited October 1, 2023 by monkeypox

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, monkeypox said:

Exactly. I think Jill/Derick made the right choice, for so many reasons.

I just imagine Boob popping veins on hearing her news. 😂

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, lianau said:

I've  just seen Derick described as a slightly nicer version of JB and I think  it really pointed out my problems with the  current Jill and Derick dynamic . How much of this is Jill driving it  and how much of it  is Derick trying to get one over JB , knowing that Free Jinger  Jill is a thing and would get him support? The guy went to law school just to one up his wife's father and most of his beef seems to be centered around money, not religious teachings.  He's on the book cover , sitting in interviews of what's supposed to be Jill's story. I just  hope Jill isn't exchanging one  personal cult leader for another one. 

I think it's a stretch to say that Derick went to law school to one-up JB, but I know nothing of his motivations, so this could be the case.

Personally, I think that Derick was a vulnerable young man who was looking for purpose and meaning in his life when he met JB (that's what cults are looking for, after all, is vulnerable young people who can be molded into compliant cult members).

I think that Derick got a rude awakening after he returned to the US and married Jill. He thought that the Duggars were a big, warm, loving family who devoted themselves to Jesus. Instead, he found that JB and J'chelle were completely disengaged, the children in the family were largely feral, and their "religion" was largely devoted to legalism and control and had very little to do with Jesus.

I think that they largely drifted for a couple of years, but they seem to have gotten back on track a few years ago. My guess is that there was someone in the program that Derick took part in when they returned from DA that got him straightened out. Someone was able to make him see that missionary work wasn't right for him, and got him pointed toward law school. That's just a guess, though. I do think it's a lot of work and money to spend three years in law school and take the bar twice tow own JB.

[MaryAnneSpier]

5 hours ago, lianau said:

I've  just seen Derick described as a slightly nicer version of JB and I think  it really pointed out my problems with the  current Jill and Derick dynamic . How much of this is Jill driving it  and how much of it  is Derick trying to get one over JB , knowing that Free Jinger  Jill is a thing and would get him support? The guy went to law school just to one up his wife's father and most of his beef seems to be centered around money, not religious teachings.  He's on the book cover , sitting in interviews of what's supposed to be Jill's story. I just  hope Jill isn't exchanging one  personal cult leader for another one. 

I don't entirely mind having Derick in interviews and the book cover because I do feel he's been supportive of Jill's personal growth. If she'd married someone more controlling who fully wanted a meek, unthinking, simpering wife, she wouldn't be where she is today. I think Derick enjoys the school structure (which I totally understand because I'd be a full-time student forever if I had the money to do so). Since their missionary/ministry plans fell through, he furthered his education to provide for his family, possibly to understand financial law, and even potentially fight for laws protecting minors who bring in family income from TV shows/YouTube channels. 

Jinger on the other hand, I do feel traded in one cult for another when she married Jeremy and moved to CA and MacArthur's church.

[sixlets]

JB&M are in their late 50s.  As each year passes, there are more opportunities for JB to spend the money that is supposedly being set aside for when they're gone.  It also gives the kids more opportunities to break free and tell their own stories.  Come out against Gothard/IBLP/JB, and JB will come up with a reason to spend the money.  Jinger took a different tact & made her story more about Gothard.  Jill said screw it & made her story more about her parents.  Regardless of how you feel about Jill, it's pretty obvious this is her giant FU moment to JB&M, and they deserve everything they have coming.   

[Salacious Kitty]

25 minutes ago, sixlets said:

JB&M are in their late 50s.  As each year passes, there are more opportunities for JB to spend the money that is supposedly being set aside for when they're gone.  It also gives the kids more opportunities to break free and tell their own stories.  Come out against Gothard/IBLP/JB, and JB will come up with a reason to spend the money.  Jinger took a different tact & made her story more about Gothard.  Jill said screw it & made her story more about her parents.  Regardless of how you feel about Jill, it's pretty obvious this is her giant FU moment to JB&M, and they deserve everything they have coming.   

I felt Meech was let off too easily. Jill laid the blame for everything squarely on JB's shoulders. 

[MaryAnneSpier]

7 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I felt Meech was let off too easily. Jill laid the blame for everything squarely on JB's shoulders. 

Because he is the headship.  That’s supposedly part of the burden of being a leader; you reap the benefits and get credit for when things go well, but are responsible for consequences your decisions as leader caused.  That’s theoretically how it’s supposed to work.  Michelle was JB’s helpmeet, a supportive person to help JB accomplish his goals and implement his plans for the family.  

[Salacious Kitty]

1 minute ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Because he is the headship.  That’s supposedly part of the burden of being a leader; you reap the benefits and get credit for when things go well, but are responsible for consequences your decisions as leader caused.  That’s theoretically how it’s supposed to work.  Michelle was JB’s helpmeet, a supportive person to help JB accomplish his goals and implement his plans for the family.  

You are absolutely correct. But we know that Michelle has more power in that household than the regular fundie helpmeet ( not named Jill Rodrigues).

[woodscommaelle]

7 hours ago, monkeypox said:

Plus, if MEEEchelle dies at any time before JimBob, he's fathering as many more kids as he can. 

Who would want him?

[Salacious Kitty]

31 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Who would want him?

Some young godly girl raised in the IBLP may not have a choice. I can see Boob brokering a deal with some poor girl's father.

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

You are absolutely correct. But we know that Michelle has more power in that household than the regular fundie helpmeet ( not named Jill Rodrigues).

Yeah, I wish Jill and really all the siblings would see that Michelle's just as responsible as JB. She was happy to use her daughters to do all the stuff she should have been doing. She was part of the Megyn interview denying downplaying what Josh did while insisting they did everything correct. She is just as terrible as JB.

[GeeGolly]

I wouldn't go as far as saying Jinger traded cults. It looks to me Jinger's LA Grace church community believes very much the same thing as the Dillard's AR Cross church community. I also believe members of both churches are free to cherry pick beliefs much like the Catholic community.

I think the sisters are likely in the same place. They both took baby steps away from their family culture and Gothard indoctrination. Their motivations were different which shows in their books. Jinger said from the beginning her book wasn't a tell-all and Jill's is. It seems to me Jinger's book reflects a spiritual journey and Jill's exposes unhealthy family dynamics and drama. The books were written for two different audiences - Jinger's, for the spiritually confused and Jill's, for Duggar haters.

I think both Jill and Jinger have a long way to go to 'break free' from all they went through. I would argue Jill is not ahead of Jinger in this game and neither Derick nor Jeremy are heroes.

[satrunrose]

I don't think there are any absolute heroes or villains in the Duggar story (with the very possible exceptions of JB and Gothard in the villain roles). 

Michelle: Her religion literally teaches that if she started having a headache every night post baby #5 or sided with the kids against JB that she could be attacked by Satan in this world and the next. On the other hand, Gothardism never said she had to let the kids grow up feral/sister momed because their mother "didn't have a heart for children". Like-wise, I don't think it was JB who was keeping a public calendar to track prime baby-making season. 

Jeremy: Seems loving and supportive towards Jinger. Was the first to start tiptoeing away from the Duggar insanity. On the other hand, he's openly anti-social justice, he's totally tied into a church that is fervently against women in authority, he wanted a meek wife, he talks over Jinger and doesn't seem to value her opinions, he only seems to value her for her looks and occasional cooking ability, is about as deep as a puddle no matter how much he preaches. 

Derrick: He supports Jill. They do seem to love each other. He seems less attached to the whole headship vibe than a lot of his in-laws (I'm including Jeremy, Austin, Jed! and Anna in this). More progressive than Jill in some ways (evolution). His support helped to get Jill compensated for the fact that her parents made a lot of money from selling her childhood. He's not gaslighting her about the abuse she suffered. If that excerpt from the book is too be believed, he took Jill's cues and let her handle a really tough conversation with her dad independently (and honestly, I do give Derrick a fair bit of credit for this. Independence is not a word that can be applied to a single Duggar except for Jill, IMO). On the other hand: He attacked a teenaged girl and loving parents of young children on social media and there's no indication, including in Jill's book, that he has any misgivings about that. We know, at least at some points, that dubious elements of Duggar parenting have been copied by the Dillards. We don't know where the needle lies between Jill needing to write this book to heal and Derrick wanting to write this book for $$$. 

[GeeGolly]

IMO, both Jeremy and Derick likely treat their wives well. To me the difference is Jill and more so Derick try very hard to control the narrative. They very much care what is written about them and try to combat that. The Vuolos, who likely read the same stuff, don't come back with explanations to defend themselves.

I'm certain Jeremy would never be believed if he explained the word meek in a different context than a negative one. And I, for one, will not give Derick the benefit of the doubt after he has publicly told many conflicting versions of the same story.

But again, neither Jill or Jinger have given any indication they are less than happy in their marriages.

[AstridM]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I wouldn't go as far as saying Jinger traded cults. It looks to me Jinger's LA Grace church community believes very much the same thing as the Dillard's AR Cross church community. I also believe members of both churches are free to cherry pick beliefs much like the Catholic community.

I think the sisters are likely in the same place. They both took baby steps away from their family culture and Gothard indoctrination. Their motivations were different which shows in their books. Jinger said from the beginning her book wasn't a tell-all and Jill's is. It seems to me Jinger's book reflects a spiritual journey and Jill's exposes unhealthy family dynamics and drama. The books were written for two different audiences - Jinger's, for the spiritually confused and Jill's, for Duggar haters.

I think both Jill and Jinger have a long way to go to 'break free' from all they went through. I would argue Jill is not ahead of Jinger in this game and neither Derick nor Jeremy are heroes.

Neither are heroes, certainly, but you should look deeper into the rot that is Mcarthur. 🤷‍♀️

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, AstridM said:

Neither are heroes, certainly, but you should look deeper into the rot that is Mcarthur. 🤷‍♀️

For sure. The same can be said for Cross Church.