Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[satrunrose]

49 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I don't have any sympathy for her, but I feel like I should.

She was raised in a bizarro-world where right is wrong and up is down. Thinking for yourself is bad and wrong. Reading and learning have to be closely monitored and are completely unacceptable outside of a small set of approved material.  Art, music. literature, and science are evil and must be avoided at all costs.

In her world, she has absolutely no value except as Josh's wife. Her children are supposed to be secondary to caring for her husband. He is everything and without him, she's really, literally, nothing. I think she 100% believes that "the government" hates Christians and is actively out to persecute good people. I think that she 100% believes that "the government" would make up all sorts of "evidence" that they would use in their persecution of Jesus-loving Josh.

I don't think Anna is very smart (and, hey, she's smarter than Priscilla! is a low bar), and she has had much less exposure to the outside world than her in-laws. so I'm not convinced by the "she's an adult and she should know" arguments.

All that being said, I just find her completely unsympathetic. I find her really unpleasant as a person. I find her voice cloying and unpleasant; her "countenance" is pinched and smug. She never comes across as being simply nice, or pleasant, or helpful -- she just seems like someone who is making a show of being "good."

 

This is petty much exactly where I am. My sympathy for her begins and ends with feeling sad about how trapped she is. It sucks for her that her community sees her only value is in being a wife and pumping out children that look good-ish on social media (Jill Rod shows how low that bar is). Even if she wanders into the Barbie movie by mistake tomorrow and a switch flips in her head, though, she's still got 7 kids and no source of income. Being a dependant on JB has got to suck, but it's probably better than a lot of the alternatives. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by satrunrose

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

She never comes across as being simply nice, or pleasant, or helpful --

NONE of these fundies do.   They are all judgmental and self-righteous but would cross the street rather than help someone out.   They wouldn't even say have a nice day to someone in case its "wasted" on a "heathen."  They are all performative, loudly and publicly proclaiming their love of God just like Jesus preached against.

[Salacious Kitty]

I can't seem to link it (from TikTok), but it appears that FF's 5th molestation victim has come forward via a written statement. She says she wasn't a babysitter, and that she only knew the Duggars via the conferences. She didn't say where the incidents happened, only that she knew it was not right. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[peppergal]

If anyone is interested, Ian Runkle, a defense attorney friend of Emily Baker, did a rundown of the appeal ruling on his youtube channel, Runkle of the Bailey, this week.   As someone who has had his fair share of stupid and/or unappealing clients working as a public defender, he has a good take on the arguments and why they were doomed to fail due to Josh's own actions and the failures of his defense team.

[satrunrose]

I'll have to check that out. I seem to remember that J'Inmate's legal team advertised themselves as a high profile firm that got people off no matter how damning the evidence, but then they seemed fairly sucky. I'd be interested to see how this guy breaks down the division between the defence messing up and Josh being an epic idiot. 

[quarks]

I'm inclined to just blame Josh. I'm honestly not sure what even the very best legal team in world could have done with Josh's initial "So are you here to investigate child porn?" comment. 

 

[Zella]

By all accounts, they specialize in the charges Josh had (among other things) and they tout a lot of successes at it. I think the problem was he was likely advised to do a plea deal because the evidence was overwhelming, but he was too arrogant to accept that. They can advise, but if he doesn't want to listen, they don't really have options other than bullshit together the best defense they can with as little as Josh gave them to work with. 

[Jeeves]

12 hours ago, satrunrose said:

I'll have to check that out. I seem to remember that J'Inmate's legal team advertised themselves as a high profile firm that got people off no matter how damning the evidence, but then they seemed fairly sucky. I'd be interested to see how this guy breaks down the division between the defence messing up and Josh being an epic idiot. 

I doubt the law firm would claim to achieve acquittals no matter what. That's not possible, and making that claim in an ad would violate the disciplinary rules and bring down the hammer on their law licenses. 

6 hours ago, Zella said:

By all accounts, they specialize in the charges Josh had (among other things) and they tout a lot of successes at it. I think the problem was he was likely advised to do a plea deal because the evidence was overwhelming, but he was too arrogant to accept that. They can advise, but if he doesn't want to listen, they don't really have options other than bullshit together the best defense they can with as little as Josh gave them to work with. 

I think that they advertise their specialized experience and note their successful cases. If they do that accurately, it's not false advertising. I also believe they advised J'inmate to take a plea deal and he was too arrogant to do it. If he refuses the deal, his lawyer's obliged to go to trial and do their best, even if the case is a real dog for the defense.

If in the pretrial phase there was some publicity touting how fab the defense lawyers were at defending these cases? At the end of the day, in relation to the actual court proceedings, that stuff is just extraneous noise. Under other circumstances, that kind of pro-defense publicity could shake the confidence of a prosecutor. But not in that case, not with those prosecutors. It probably served to buck up the Duggars who were backing their Crown Prince, but that was just false hope. You can brag all day - and get some press - about how you've hired this big swinging **** to win your case, but it means zilch when court convenes. As JB, Anna, J'inmate, and others found out.

[GeeGolly]

All this discussion about the FF's lawyers makes me think what the Duggars have 'taught' us.

Wouldn't this all be God's will? Weren't the Duggars made to walk through this season of life in His timing?

Why hire lawyers at all?

[satrunrose]

Well, according to some of the rumours we heard, Anna and JB were saying that he, like Paul, was chosen (by God, naturally) to proselytise to his fellow inmates. You'd think if they believed that before the trial that he would have just pled guilty. Just another example of fundie hypocrisy.

[ozziemom]

It must have been Satan that told JB to hire lawyers for J’inmate, ya know, testing him and all that. But god wanted J’inmate to spread the word more or some such nonsense. The truth of him just being guilty isn’t something JB or Anna can accept.

[Meow Mix]

I've wondered about Anna and what she truly is thinking here about his guilt or innocence.  Given what we have seen of her over the years and how fundies operate within their churches, I think she knows he did something wrong.  Fundie churches are big on saying that stuff should be handled within the church rather than bringing in law enforcement.  I am sure she thought that the feds should have stayed out of it and let the church handle it.  You know, since they have done such a great job so far.  I also think she believes that he got a harsher sentence simply because he is such a great Christian.  You know, the evil liberals are always out to get people like the Duggars.  The fact that she purposely shielded herself from seeing what he was looking at, just allows her to continue with this delusion.  I feel sorry for her kids, but not for her.

[GeeGolly]

Well gee, if Josh was chosen to preach to prisoners, he could have skipped the crime and just volunteered. But, oh yea, Duggars do things a little differently. 

[AstridM]

42 minutes ago, Meow Mix said:

I've wondered about Anna and what she truly is thinking here about his guilt or innocence.  Given what we have seen of her over the years and how fundies operate within their churches, I think she knows he did something wrong.  Fundie churches are big on saying that stuff should be handled within the church rather than bringing in law enforcement.  I am sure she thought that the feds should have stayed out of it and let the church handle it.  You know, since they have done such a great job so far.  I also think she believes that he got a harsher sentence simply because he is such a great Christian.  You know, the evil liberals are always out to get people like the Duggars.  The fact that she purposely shielded herself from seeing what he was looking at, just allows her to continue with this delusion.  I feel sorry for her kids, but not for her.

What church does Anna even attend?

[Teriacky]

Church of the Hopelessly Delusional?

[Laura Holt]

2 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

Given what we have seen of her over the years and how fundies operate within their churches, I think she knows he did something wrong.  Fundie churches are big on saying that stuff should be handled within the church rather than bringing in law enforcement. 

They also have a tendency to at least pretend that they believe all sins are equal.  So if Josh would go to Jesus jail for viewing regular porn why would he be treated any differently for child porn?  To someone like Anna they wouldn't even be pretending, to her it's all the same.  

[Stevie Nicks]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

All this discussion about the FF's lawyers makes me think what the Duggars have 'taught' us.

Wouldn't this all be God's will? Weren't the Duggars made to walk through this season of life in His timing?

Why hire lawyers at all?

They probably believe that God is testing their faith or some shit. 

[Salacious Kitty]

4 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

They also have a tendency to at least pretend that they believe all sins are equal.  So if Josh would go to Jesus jail for viewing regular porn why would he be treated any differently for child porn?  To someone like Anna they wouldn't even be pretending, to her it's all the same.  

Unfortunately for FF, that's not how the law works. If he hadn't been publicly caught, but caught nonetheless somehow, I bet he would have gone to Jesus Jail again. Not that it worked the first time. 🙄

[oliviabenson]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

What church does Anna even attend?

At least I have a (jail bird) husband 

[merylinkid]

34 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

They also have a tendency to at least pretend that they believe all sins are equal.  So if Josh would go to Jesus jail for viewing regular porn why would he be treated any differently for child porn?  To someone like Anna they wouldn't even be pretending, to her it's all the same.  

Worse, having a beer or allowing the 7-11 down the street to sell beer is as bad as what FF did in their world.   Which is why the "punishment" does nothing.  He would get the same punishment if he said a bad word.   

[AstridM]

3 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

I am sure she thought that the feds should have stayed out of it and let the church handle it. 

Yet when Boob ran for office, he ran on a platform of putting rapists to death.

[Salacious Kitty]

8 minutes ago, AstridM said:

Yet when Boob ran for office, he ran on a platform of putting rapists to death.

I thought it was child abusers or CP viewers. It's been a minute, so I might be misremembering. But I thought it had to do with kids.

[jcbrown]

38 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I thought it was child abusers or CP viewers. It's been a minute, so I might be misremembering. But I thought it had to do with kids.

Hypocrites gotta hypocrite.

[ginger90]

An article from 2015:

 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemcneal/here-are-jim-bob-duggars-political-stances-on-sexual-assault

[Salacious Kitty]

Oh, incest. So it could involve a child. JB didn't elaborate. 

[AstridM]

4 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I thought it was child abusers or CP viewers. It's been a minute, so I might be misremembering. But I thought it had to do with kids.

One of those, I think. 

[Meow Mix]

21 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

They also have a tendency to at least pretend that they believe all sins are equal.  So if Josh would go to Jesus jail for viewing regular porn why would he be treated any differently for child porn?  To someone like Anna they wouldn't even be pretending, to her it's all the same.  

I remember Jessa in her statement implied this.  She equated what the felon was looking at to legal adult porn, which it is not.

[xwordfanatik]

This thinking of "all sins are equal" really pisses me off.  Is this more IBLP bullshit?  

4 hours ago, Meow Mix said:

I remember Jessa in her statement implied this.  She equated what the felon was looking at to legal adult porn, which it is not.

This is beyond fucked up!  😡  I would never forgive J-Inmate for what he's done.  

[CalicoKitty]

1 hour ago, xwordfanatik said:

This thinking of "all sins are equal" really pisses me off.  Is this more IBLP bullshit?  

This is beyond fucked up!  😡  I would never forgive J-Inmate for what he's done.  

But I thought watching porn was very, very wrong.  Don't they have Covenant Eyes for this very purpose?  Wasn't it in the wedding vows that some wife would make sure to monitor her new husband's phone?  So if watching porn is so, so horrible, and "all sins are equal", shouldn't they be horrified with J'inmate?  Maybe all sins are equal for everyone EXCEPT the first-born son.

[P-Fat]

7 hours ago, xwordfanatik said:

This thinking of "all sins are equal" really pisses me off.  Is this more IBLP bullshit?  

This is beyond fucked up!  😡  I would never forgive J-Inmate for what he's done.  

Nah my ex-husband was in a different fundie cult and they said the same thing. I used to make him mad when I would question it. Excuses were made, goal posts were moved, and that's one of the reasons he is now an "ex"!

[Notabug]

On 8/13/2023 at 5:21 PM, CalicoKitty said:

But I thought watching porn was very, very wrong.  Don't they have Covenant Eyes for this very purpose?  Wasn't it in the wedding vows that some wife would make sure to monitor her new husband's phone?  So if watching porn is so, so horrible, and "all sins are equal", shouldn't they be horrified with J'inmate?  Maybe all sins are equal for everyone EXCEPT the first-born son.

The whole cult is focused on the sinner.  All sins are equally bad in the eyes of their lord.  There is no consideration given to those who might've been hurt by the sin.  As a matter of fact, there is a fair amount of victim blaming which is why the Duggar girls ended up sleeping in their clothes in a locked bedroom at night.  And why they couldn't let a boy see their collarbones or knees.  They were given the message that they were also sinners for having tempted the men to sin.

So, being involved with CSAM is no worse than stealing a candy bar from the 7-11.  A little kid forced to perform sex acts is no different than an adult who chooses to perform those same acts voluntarily.  They're both leading men to sin.  It's a very sick way of thinking about right and wrong.

You will also notice that, in almost all cases, it is the male sinner who gets cut the slack while it is the women and children who are really at fault for leading them astray.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Notabug

[Jeeves]

11 hours ago, P-Fat said:

Nah my ex-husband was in a different fundie cult and they said the same thing.

That's always been my understanding about the prevalence of the "all sins are equal" idea - it's pretty widespread. We know - although we've had to kind of piece it all together from different sources over the years - that when J'inmate was a teenager, he molested five very young girls ("Case 1") and at least a year or two later it was discovered that he also had watched (adult) porn on a computer ("Case 2"). In both cases, as I understand it, he was brought before the church elders. I think that in Case 2 he may have also been brought before the entire church, as the podcaster named Justin described witnessing as a kid in that church. 

For Case 1 - J'inmate was sent to work on the ATI's Little Rock building/remodeling project. And had a stern "talking-to" from a law enforcement officer - who these days is serving a long prison sentence for possessing CSAM. 

For Case 2 - J'inmate's head was shaved and he was sent to spend a hot Arkansas summer digging out an irrigation pond. Living out in fairly isolated conditions doing literally filthy work. (And brought back to Tontitown as required when TLC's crews were there shooting footage, of course). 

That ^^ is my understanding of what happened, based on information made available over the years online, and I don't offer it as absolute truth. Corrections welcomed, but I'm going with it as truthful until reliably corrected.

So the message is:

1. Molest children: go hammer some nails for awhile and chat with a friendly cop. Amy said she was told that J'inmate was just away from home helping people build houses.
2. Look at adult porn: undergo a shaming before the church congregation with a shaved head, then spend a sweltering summer shoveling mud and sh*t out on an isolated farm, living alone in a shack with your meals brought to you. 

Not to drag this conversation way off topic, but I will say this. I watch a lot of true crime on TV. The deets of the cases tend to drift into and out of my mind, but offhand without any searching I can name at least three cases where religious folk murdered their spouses [themselves or had someone else do it] to be free to live happily ever after with their side piece. These were (nominal) Christians of the conservative-to-fundie flavor. Of course those perps were not good people no matter what doctrines they espoused, but the "I've already sinned by committing adultery so what's another one like murder?" idea no doubt fed into their evil acts. In fact, one of them actually used that idea, among others, in persuading his mistress to kill his wife. (Brian Hood, whose mistress Jennifer Reali shot his wife Dianne Hood to death, Colorado Springs, 1990). 

[ginger90]

CSAM not porn.

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, ginger90 said:

CSAM not porn.

What was CSAM? I never heard that teenaged J'inmate's porn viewing was CSAM.

[ginger90]

9 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

What was CSAM? I never heard that teenaged J'inmate's porn viewing was CSAM.

Child porn was referenced in a post. It is often used and I personally find it incorrect.

[GeeGolly]

Most believe getting into heaven is still an option no matter the sin, but they all know with punishments, including the legal system, the differences in sins matter.

So I don't believe they look at sins equally in regard to the egregiousness of them, just that God or Jesus forgives all sins.

[Salacious Kitty]

They may intellectually k ow there's a difference, but spiritually, they believe all ain is the same. And spiritual belief grumps the secular world in their narrow views.

[GeeGolly]

9 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

They may intellectually k ow there's a difference, but spiritually, they believe all ain is the same. And spiritual belief grumps the secular world in their narrow views.

Yea, I agree, but again the sins are the same in regard to God's forgiveness.

A kid teasing a sibling is different than a kid hitting their sibling and/or pushing their sibling into on coming traffic. God will forgive them equally for these sins if they repent, but the parent, even the Fundy parent, will punish each sin differently.

[Salacious Kitty]

True. If they really believed all sins were the same, they wouldn't have sent FF away to build hotels and dig ditches. 

[AstridM]

1 minute ago, Salacious Kitty said:

True. If they really believed all sins were the same, they wouldn't have sent FF away to build hotels and dig ditches. 

And Boob wouldn’t have campaigned on a platform of supporting the death penalty for sex crimes. 

[Gemma Violet]

Take this with a block of salt, but today I heard on a Youtube video by a Duggar vlogger (not WOACB) that a cellmate in the prison (who has contacted her with reliable info in the past) told her Anna and Josh are no longer together.  She says that Josh allegedly told him "My wife is done with me.  That is her New Year's resolution.  She is not happy with me."  The guy also said Josh does not read the bible although his nickname is Bible Boy.  Like I said, block of salt.  It would be great if true, though.

[Albanyguy]

30 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Take this with a block of salt, but today I heard on a Youtube video by a Duggar vlogger (not WOACB) that a cellmate in the prison (who has contacted her with reliable info in the past) told her Anna and Josh are no longer together.  She says that Josh allegedly told him "My wife is done with me.  That is her New Year's resolution.  She is not happy with me."  The guy also said Josh does not read the bible although his nickname is Bible Boy.  Like I said, block of salt.  It would be great if true, though.

The only thing I believe about that is that his prison nickname is “Bible Boy” 

[Salacious Kitty]

Just now, Albanyguy said:

The only thing I believe about that is that his prison nickname is “Bible Boy” 

Was just reading with the same thoughts. If anything, he's done with Anna. 

[SMama]

On 8/14/2023 at 11:03 AM, Jeeves said:

What was CSAM? I never heard that teenaged J'inmate's porn viewing was CSAM.

Child Sexual Abuse Material

[merylinkid]

8 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Was just reading with the same thoughts. If anything, he's done with Anna. 

He's been done with her for a while.

But Anna was hanging in there through the appeal, at least.   Also hasn't she been spotted at the prison in 2023?    if it was a New Year's resolution, she blew it.

[BetyBee]

9 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Take this with a block of salt, but today I heard on a Youtube video by a Duggar vlogger (not WOACB) that a cellmate in the prison (who has contacted her with reliable info in the past) told her Anna and Josh are no longer together.  She says that Josh allegedly told him "My wife is done with me.  That is her New Year's resolution.  She is not happy with me."  The guy also said Josh does not read the bible although his nickname is Bible Boy.  Like I said, block of salt.  It would be great if true, though.

I would like to believe that Anna has come to her senses, but she's a hard core believer in all things Gothard. I do believe Pest has been done with her for some time. What would it even mean if she was done with him, since she still lives with his parents? Her life sucks and her children are doomed. 

[Jeeves]

7 hours ago, SMama said:

Child Sexual Abuse Material

I should have worded my post more clearly. I know what CSAM means. I was asking what the OP was referring to, and did get an answer. (Because that post had followed mine, I wondered if there was some rumor that J'inmate's porn viewing as a teen, was other than adult porn. It turns out that reference was to another post which had used the older and now outdated term for that material, not to my post at all.)

[SMama]

47 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I should have worded my post more clearly. I know what CSAM means. I was asking what the OP was referring to, and did get an answer. (Because that post had followed mine, I wondered if there was some rumor that J'inmate's porn viewing as a teen, was other than adult porn. It turns out that reference was to another post which had used the older and now outdated term for that material, not to my post at all.)

Sorry

[Future Cat Lady]

3 hours ago, BetyBee said:

I would like to believe that Anna has come to her senses, but she's a hard core believer in all things Gothard. I do believe Pest has been done with her for some time. What would it even mean if she was done with him, since she still lives with his parents? Her life sucks and her children are doomed. 

If she divorces him, she loses the Duggar's support. She would also loose part of her own family's support. Even, if she has a few siblings that would like to help her, they can't take her and her seven kids. She doesn't own a house or have any job experience  and I don't think she has that much money in her name.

It would take a lot of courage and determination for Anna to leave everything to start a new life on her own. Even if she was done with him, she's stuck.

[oliviabenson]

Anna will leave if Jim kicks her out/cuts her off. Otherwise she is staying put.