Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

AFAIK he wasn't on the prosecution's witness list, but Justin, the guy who did the "I Pray You Put This Journal Away" podcasts, knew Josh when they were both kids. He's younger than Josh; his family started attending JB's home church when they were in the little house by that church. He said in one podcast that the other kids had a bunch of cobbled-together PCs that were assembled from a bunch of old computers a local college was throwing out and JB hauled home. But JOSH had his own brand new iMac, and Justin talks about that and how the guys gathered round while Josh showed off his nice iMac. He also mentioned that Josh AS A TEENAGER talked about LInux partitions.

I thought about him too in relation to Josh's tech savvy. He actually popped back up on Reddit today and indicated that he had contacted the prosecution and offered any assistance they needed, but they apparently didn't take him up on it and felt they already had everything covered. It wouldn't surprise me if they already have plans for countering any defense claims that this sort of technical wizardry was beyond Josh. This agent's testimony certainly doesn't help further that claim. 

[Westiepeach]

Y’all, this trial is killing my work productivity. I jump on “for a second” to see what is going on and it moves so fast I am on it for like an hour… or two. To all of my clients… so sorry!

[all fall down]

Josh was always labled as the family's tech guy back in the early specials. He spent lots of time in the digital room of the house (not sure what they officially called it) and did video editing and web design or whatever. So no, I don't buy that he wouldn't know about a Linux partition or how to install it. It's easy enough to find that info. 

What does astonish me, is that he had all this stuff to evade Covenant Eyes, but didn't use a VPN! If you're installing a partition and using a torrent program, using a VPN is like step 1 in the handbook. 

So either, he had one but forgot to connect to it on those days, or, he was more concerned about evading covenant eyes and Anna than he was about evading the law. 

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Oh Anna left on purpose.   She has a built in excuse to bail -- she is breastfeeding.   She just conveniently needs to do it any time something hits too close to the truth.   She just leaves so she can remain blissfully ignorant that her Joshie is still the Chosen One and she will be his Queen.  

I think it's very possible that the courtroom was given a warning before the CSAM was displayed so that visitors could leave if desired. 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, christine falls said:

So either, he had one but forgot to connect to it on those days, or, he was more concerned about evading covenant eyes and Anna than he was about evading the law. 

I've wondered about the lack of a VPN too. Does Covenant Eyes register when a VPN is being used? I also wondered if he couldn't figure out a way to pay for a VPN without it being noticed by either Anna or his parents. I'm not sure they would know what one was, but if his general activities were being monitored, I could see that being a purchase that could be scrutinized.  

[satrunrose]

Wasn't there something on Volderjosh's Linked in about having his own web consultancy business or something back in the FRC era? That'd be a fun bit of evidence to oppose the "Poor stupid Josh" defence (and gotta say, I am looooving that Mother of the Year whose homeschool is soooooo superior to us poor public school heathens spawned a kid whose best defence is "his schooling sucked, therefore he's too much of an idiot to do this.")

[GeeGolly]

27 minutes ago, quarks said:

Sorry, I know this isn't the main point, but I'm just going to have to stay flabbergasted here.

What sort of person supposedly selling used cars tells federal agents that he needs encrypted material to sell the cars?

Like, I get that that agents were there investigating CSA material, and I get that encryption software is standard for online payments, but why the hell would you tell a federal agent that you had to use the dark web/Tor/encrypted material for your used cars? You do realize that sure makes it sound like that on top of everything else, you also might have been selling stolen cars or car parts?

I come from a long line of new and used car dealers. The answer, there is no use for the dark web, for honest or shady dealers. Josh's excuse makes him look like a stupid liar who thinks he's dealing with Feds that are stupider than him.

An apple that didn't fall far from that JB tree.

[crazycatlady58]

38 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

If this were my kid, though, and I truly believed that that was a true or a strong possibility, I'd want to see the stuff in that case, too. I'd want to know, viscerally, how terrible a thing it was that my child might be falsely convicted of. I'd want to know exactly how big an outrage it was.....

Either way, I  think it's chickenshit, ... Either way, there's something very bad here that, one way or another, closely affects their son and the rest of their family.     Yet these people -- who are planning to join Jesus soon to literally battle all the demons of hell to win the universe for their Heavenly Father -- are afraid to even look at this one small stack of serious human evils. Even though these evils are a very large thing in the life of their favorite son.  

All I can conclude is that Jesus is assembling a Chickenshit Coward Army  ☹️

 

I don't think that Jesus wants anything to do with them

[GeeGolly]

Can we make a list of #SayingsfromJosh?

• You here for the porn?
• My wife is pregnant.
• I use it for work.

 

[crazy8s]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

I come from a long line of new and used car dealers. The answer, there is no use for the dark web, for honest or shady dealers. Josh's excuse makes him look like a stupid liar who thinks he's dealing with Feds that are stupider than him.

An apple that didn't fall far from that JB tree.

so if Jed! takes the stand, maybe he will be asked if he needs to use the dark web for his car lot or if he is able to sell cars without that.

the "I need the dark web for my business" while claiming he is too uneducated to understand how that works is ridiculous

[cereality]

35 minutes ago, lilwhitelion said:

There was something Bobye Holt said Monday that I find so unbelievable.  I think it was the second visit she and Jim made to the Duggars.  Of course, they met with Michelle, Jim Bob and Josh in the master bedroom (who wouldn't?) and before Josh told them about what he did to Joy, Jim Holt had fallen asleep.  What the hell!  Maybe you should meet somewhere you can't lie your head down!

I actually laughed out loud. I haven't followed every detail here - more the court/trial procedure stuff as that's what I do professionally. Who are the Holts? Friends? Church elders?Josh was confessing to them when he did stuff to his sisters? Like was that his parents' punishment - you did something bad, you told us now you have to tell the Holts? But seriously who lets strangers or even friends into their master bedroom and then that friend goes into your bedroom, makes himself comfy, takes off his shoes, lies down on your bed and sleeps?? I'm so confused . . . . Like WTH I don't even like others sitting on my bed!?

[Nysha]

31 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think it's very possible that the courtroom was given a warning before the CSAM was displayed so that visitors could leave if desired. 

That doesn't change my opinion that Anna, JB, and Michelle are cowards for not watching the CSAM that their diseased Golden Penis is on trial for. If they're going to deny his guilt and/or the severity of what he did, they should have to see fruits of his actions.

20 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I come from a long line of new and used car dealers. The answer, there is no use for the dark web, for honest or shady dealers. Josh's excuse makes him look like a stupid liar who thinks he's dealing with Feds that are stupider than him.

An apple that didn't fall far from that JB tree.

So, Duggar business as usual?

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Nysha
Apparently the Holt's second interview with Sex Pest was in their master bedroom, not JB & Michelle's.

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Can we make a list of #SayingsfromJosh?

• You here for the porn?
• My wife is pregnant.
• I use it for work.

 

• I'm not denying guilt.

[louannems]

4 hours ago, hathorlive said:

LOL...this could be the biggest FU of all time.  Josh can't demand he move and Josh knows Derrick is NOT there to support. He's probably there to gather first hand information.  Good for him. 

"Derick appeared in court looking dapper"!!!

[cereality]

1 minute ago, crazy8s said:

so if Jed! takes the stand, maybe he will be asked if he needs to use the dark web for his car lot or if he is able to sell cars without that.

the "I need the dark web for my business" while claiming he is too uneducated to understand how that works is ridiculous

Right!? Do him and Jed run the same car lot or different ones? Jed better think hard if he's a defense witness - is it worth having the feds on his tail now and after his business bc he decides to fall in line with daddy and defend Joshie and say yep you need the dark web in the used car business!? And then the feds pursue the Duggars businesses and find shady things there (bc I'm convinced they are doing things like tax fraud etc. though I have no proof - just a lifestyle that doesn't match their businesses or educations). I mean there is ZERO use for the dark web if you're running a business on the up and and up and the only thing you'd need encryption tech for is to safeguard your customers' info - like if they are paying with credit card or bank acct/routing #s - yet businesses have software for that stuff (think along the lines of Paypal but commercially used), they don't just hop onto the dark web and take a gander at some CP while your card goes thru!?

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

• I'm not denying guilt.

I missed that one. Holy wow!

[Quilt Fairy]

43 minutes ago, lilwhitelion said:

There was something Bobye Holt said Monday that I find so unbelievable.  I think it was the second visit she and Jim made to the Duggars.  Of course, they met with Michelle, Jim Bob and Josh in the master bedroom (who wouldn't?) and before Josh told them about what he did to Joy, Jim Holt had fallen asleep.  What the hell!  Maybe you should meet somewhere you can't lie your head down!

The second confession was when Josh was at the Holt's house in their bedroom.

[cereality]

And Josh and Daddy better think REALLY hard about making fools of the feds/acting like they don't understand tech or encryption or whatever. I mean in case you all don't know federal lawyers, the egos are MASSIVE; I've worked at 2 big fed agencies in my career and if someone sought to make a fool of you/pull one over on you, yeah you don't take that lightly AT ALL as you throw every resource your agency has into getting a win.

[GeeGolly]

And just like that, court is done for the day. Maybe People will have a recap. 

[satrunrose]

10 minutes ago, cereality said:

I actually laughed out loud. I haven't followed every detail here - more the court/trial procedure stuff as that's what I do professionally. Who are the Holts? Friends? Church elders?Josh was confessing to them when he did stuff to his sisters? Like was that his parents' punishment - you did something bad, you told us now you have to tell the Holts? But seriously who lets strangers or even friends into their master bedroom and then that friend goes into your bedroom, makes himself comfy, takes off his shoes, lies down on your bed and sleeps?? I'm so confused . . . . Like WTH I don't even like others sitting on my bed!?

Jim Holt is what JB has always desperately wanted to be, a successful politician who's fundy and loves the correct Jesus. The families used to be close (they show up to play broom ball in one or two of the earliest specials) and the rumours, confirmed by the testimony, I guess, were that Josh was betrothed to a Holt daughter (at, like 15). People said that there was some impropriety between Josh and his betrothed long, long before the In Touch story broke, but a lot of folks, seeing how the Duggars dealt with sexuality, thought that they might have been caught making out or something similarly normal. 

I think Josh also might have gotten in trouble for using campaign computers to look up (adult) porn while working on a Holt campaign. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by satrunrose

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I missed that one. Holy wow!

I hadn't seen it before today! I did a double-take when it popped up on the live feed. It's basically How to Sound Totally Guilty 101. Dude really needed to just stick with "I'm calling my attorney." 

[Nysha]

I don't think JB or his Golden Penis have any real say in how the defense is going from today forward. The poor defense is going to to have to present every single stupid angle because Sex Pest gave up so much voluntarily during the HS raid. I'd be surprised that the non-Arkansas lawyers are still around b/c this seems so unwinnable. Hopefully, the paycheck is worth the loss.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Nysha
Loss is not the same as lost.

[Spazamanaz]

I just have a bad feeling that there's a lot more to this and that this is just the tip of the iceberg. That maybe other fundies in their churches are involved in CP as well. I mean, a potential in the making child molester doesn't just wake up one day and know where to access it online, do they? I just feel that there are others in their fundie circle that are doing the same thing.

[lilwhitelion]

3 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

The second confession was when Josh was at the Holt's house in their bedroom.

Thank you Quilt Fairy for clarifying that.  That makes it only a little better that Jim Holt fell asleep.  So that must have been when Josh lived with them so they could rehabilitate him?  As Nysha reminded me, Josh told only the Holts about digitally penetrating Joy (although Jim Holt was asleep during that confession) and Jim Bob and Michelle didn't want to talk about it when Bobye wanted to let them know what Josh said.

I think I was confused because the Holts did meet in Michelle and Jim Bob's bedroom for the first confession.

[emmawoodhouse]

6 minutes ago, cereality said:

Right!? Do him and Jed run the same car lot or different ones? Jed better think hard if he's a defense witness - is it worth having the feds on his tail now and after his business bc he decides to fall in line with daddy and defend Joshie and say yep you need the dark web in the used car business!? And then the feds pursue the Duggars businesses and find shady things there (bc I'm convinced they are doing things like tax fraud etc. though I have no proof - just a lifestyle that doesn't match their businesses or educations). I mean there is ZERO use for the dark web if you're running a business on the up and and up and the only thing you'd need encryption tech for is to safeguard your customers' info - like if they are paying with credit card or bank acct/routing #s - yet businesses have software for that stuff (think along the lines of Paypal but commercially used), they don't just hop onto the dark web and take a gander at some CP while your card goes thru!?

Jed runs Daddy's lot, a much bigger one than Smuggar's roadside, tollbooth operation. He could be cross examined about whether he has a Linux partition or the dark web on his work computer. 

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, Rootbeer said:

 

I would imagine that seeing those images is a lot to process and perhaps Austin just wasn't in the mood for chatting with Anna or Derick at that point.  Everyone deals with things differently, Austin has known Josh since he was a kid, his wife is one of Josh' victims; I would imaging he might be at a loss for words and not really interested in small talk.

I agree with this.  Austin is several years younger than Anna and Derick.  He was friends with the brothers close to his age, not particularly  Josh. He doesn’t really know Derick all that well due to the split between Derick, Jill and her parents. There wouldn’t have been an opportunity to talk in the courtroom and it’s hard to say who is doing what on breaks.  Anna may or may not be talking to many people at this point.  
I also think there is a rotation schedule for the Duggar attendees. They surely didn’t leave enough seats for all the over 18s. 

[Dianaofthehunt]

I’m mad at Fate. Why are the people who most need to be sterile, never are?
oh, what I’d give for a crack at the Duggar water supply.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I also think there is a rotation schedule for the Duggar attendees. They surely didn’t leave enough seats for all the over 18s. 

Maybe it was Austin's turn to be there? 

[Churchhoney]

15 minutes ago, cereality said:

Right!? Do him and Jed run the same car lot or different ones? Jed better think hard if he's a defense witness - is it worth having the feds on his tail now and after his business bc he decides to fall in line with daddy and defend Joshie and say yep you need the dark web in the used car business!? And then the feds pursue the Duggars businesses and find shady things there (bc I'm convinced they are doing things like tax fraud etc. though I have no proof - just a lifestyle that doesn't match their businesses or educations). I mean there is ZERO use for the dark web if you're running a business on the up and and up and the only thing you'd need encryption tech for is to safeguard your customers' info - like if they are paying with credit card or bank acct/routing #s - yet businesses have software for that stuff (think along the lines of Paypal but commercially used), they don't just hop onto the dark web and take a gander at some CP while your card goes thru!?

Jed! and misguided Katey were on the float with JB and M over the weekend, so I'd say he's definitely a defense witness or they wouldn't have let him on. 

 

[iwantcookies]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10264291/Prosecution-Josh-Duggar-case-describes-downloaded-65-images-nude-7-year-old-girl.html

😞

[crazy8s]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Maybe it was Austin's turn to be there? 

possibly Austin doesn't believe everything that JB says and wanted to see and hear things for himself. Possibly he doesn't want the reports of how things are going filtered through JB.  JB 'we just need to keep praying for josh and his legal team, blah, blah...."

[iwantcookies]

From today. Clinging on to Joshua for dear life. 

[libgirl2]

Just now, iwantcookies said:

From today. Clinging on to Joshua for dear life. 

Hey, she wore that dress already! 

[farmgal4]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

All I can figure is that Josh came to the conclusion that he could better accept serving a prison sentence, while maintaining his innocence than admitting guilt or even that there was sufficient evidence to conclude he was guilty.  It’s a hardline to draw, but some mindsets seem incapable of showing their true self.  

You mean he took an Alford plea??

[StaceyNotStacie]

15 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I agree with this.  Austin is several years younger than Anna and Derick.  He was friends with the brothers close to his age, not particularly  Josh. He doesn’t really know Derick all that well due to the split between Derick, Jill and her parents. There wouldn’t have been an opportunity to talk in the courtroom and it’s hard to say who is doing what on breaks.  Anna may or may not be talking to many people at this point.  
I also think there is a rotation schedule for the Duggar attendees. They surely didn’t leave enough seats for all the over 18s. 

I’m hoping that maybe there was a polite hello between the two BILs. The sisters were so close when they were younger, maybe the two husbands can get them together to support each other. 

[quarks]

I just need to go back to the car lot issues again:

1. This car lot was apparently unable to confirm the employment records of at least one employee for several months, though on the bright side, it seems as if we may - MAY - finally have a confirmed employment start date for Randall Barry: May 31, 2019.

2. This car lot, by Josh's own (alleged) admission, employed numerous convicts.

3. The agent of record for the car lot is one of Josh's defense attorneys, and was also the person who responded to the subpoena for the car lot records.

4. The car lot apparently needs to use encrypted materials to sell cars.

I don't know about any of you, but I have some serious questions about this car lot.

[GeeGolly]

Just now, quarks said:

I just need to go back to the car lot issues again:

1. This car lot was apparently unable to confirm the employment records of at least one employee for several months, though on the bright side, it seems as if we may - MAY - finally have a confirmed employment start date for Randall Barry: May 31, 2019.

2. This car lot, by Josh's own (alleged) admission, employed numerous convicts.

3. The agent of record for the car lot is one of Josh's defense attorneys, and was also the person who responded to the subpoena for the car lot records.

4. The car lot apparently needs to use encrypted materials to sell cars.

I don't know about any of you, but I have some serious questions about this car lot.

I think the first misconception is that this was a retail car lot. It was for wholesaling cars. Most fulltime wholesalers don't even have an office. They spend most of their days going to new car dealers, looking at their trade-ins and going to auctions. They spend the rest of their time selling and moving cars from 'purchase place' to 'sale place'. Most only 'employ' others to drive cars from place to place, or occasionally send a buyer to an auction to bid on certain cars. It really is a one man show. As for record keeping, it actually sounds like Josh kept better records than a lot of wholesalers I used to know.

[cereality]

Why would there be a rotation schedule to attend court? Guys this is federal court in America. It's open to all because due process etc. Sure JB likely doesn't want the rest of the family to attend. He wants to be the filter that'll just tell everyone to pray for Joshie and the lawyers and if this goes the other way - that this is just a test from God blah blah. Without ever saying exactly what it is Josh was doing. And sure in their own home/via their defense attorneys they can say - nah you all can't attend or maybe we'll get everyone in for a half day each. And his kids will go with it because they live in his house and are 100% dependent on him financially (and TBH they probably don't even know court is wide open in America and you don't need an invite).

But in reality they are allowed to show up whether JB wants it or not. Someone like Austin or Derick who take nothing from JB don't need JB's permission - either legally nor emotionally - to attend. 

If EVERYONE were to show up all at once, well that happens in court. Courts deal with it. If there isn't room for all (due to a lack of chairs or needing to social distance), it's NBD for a court to put people into an overflow room with a closed connection so you watch from there.

As for Austin ignoring Derick and Anna - he probably wants ZERO to do with Anna at all. But it seems like he arrived in the afternoon, if they were already seated, he was probably relieved to not have to get to them and get to sit alone and not have to chat. TBH he doesn't care about this family at all - he's there for his wife/for himself to confirm that HIS kids are not to be around Uncle Josh or even JB/Michelle alone; I don't think chit chat matters to him. Given that Derick is there for the same reason though it'd be nice if they at least exchange hellos at some point or even a bro nod acknowledging each other.

Edited December 1, 2021 by cereality

[Boston]

1 hour ago, MsJamieDornan said:

According to the Sun  

"Anna Duggar returned to the courtroom after lunch, according to the Sun reporter who attended the trial.

She and Derick Dillard sat together and seemed friendly, according to the reporter."

 

Austin Forsyth, the husband of Joy-Anna Duggar, was in the courtroom for the trial on Wednesday.

He sat in the last row and ignored Derick Dillard and Anna Duggar, who were also present, according to a Sun reporter who was at the trial today.

Just WOW.. smh

14 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

From today. Clinging on to Joshua for dear life. 

WHERE ARE YOUR KIDS, ANNA??

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Boston said:

Just WOW.. smh

Maybe he has nothing against her? Maybe he is playing nice to get some inside dirt? 

[crazy8s]

7 minutes ago, cereality said:

Why would there be a rotation schedule to attend court? Guys this is federal court in America. It's open to all because due process etc. Sure JB likely doesn't want the rest of the family to attend. He wants to be the filter that'll just tell everyone to pray for Joshie and the lawyers and if this goes the other way - that this is just a test from God blah blah. Without ever saying exactly what it is Josh was doing. And sure in their own home/via their defense attorneys they can say - nah you all can't attend or maybe we'll get everyone in for a half day each. And his kids will go with it because they live in his house and are 100% dependent on him financially (and TBH they probably don't even know court is wide open in America and you don't need an invite).

 

it seems the audience was limited each day to a certain number of people in the actual courtroom - covid protocols maybe. then there is the overflow with audio only where the reddit person was yesterday.

JB came out in the last week or so about fake news and cancel culture trying to define his family. so surely they are praying against that as well

[MsJamieDornan]

Um, is there toilet paper on Anna's shoe ?

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, irisheyes said:

Well, the jails are filled with people who thought they were smarter than the cops. Josh will fit right in. 

That's true.  We always say we get the low hanging fruit on the criminal tree.

[GeeGolly]

I really don't know what to make of this - 

From the Sun, Derick said:

"We’re sad for Anna, put yourself in her situation and imagine how you would feel if that happened with your family member.

"I imagine it would be really hard."

Derick can drum up empathy for Anna, but calls Jazz's parents child abusers?

[hathorlive]

49 minutes ago, Zella said:

I hadn't seen it before today! I did a double-take when it popped up on the live feed. It's basically How to Sound Totally Guilty 101. Dude really needed to just stick with "I'm calling my attorney." 

how about "I think I should check with my lawyer before giving you my phone passcode"

[quarks]

19 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I think the first misconception is that this was a retail car lot. It was for wholesaling cars. 

I wasn't under that misconception, but even if I had been, I don't think it matters? I think both a retail car lot and a wholesale used car lot should know the start dates for their employees.

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I've wondered about the lack of a VPN too. Does Covenant Eyes register when a VPN is being used? I also wondered if he couldn't figure out a way to pay for a VPN without it being noticed by either Anna or his parents. I'm not sure they would know what one was, but if his general activities were being monitored, I could see that being a purchase that could be scrutinized.  

To be fair, not all VPN's are created equally.  Two members of Anonymous got caught because their VPN actually kept records.  Unlike mine.  So it's not always total protection.

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

how about "I think I should check with my lawyer before giving you my phone passcode"

If I learned anything from Goodfellas (besides you need to stir the sauce), it's that when cops show up with a search warrant, be polite and call the lawyer. Josh's tactic seems to have been "be smarmy and incriminating." 

[StaceyNotStacie]

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I really don't know what to make of this - 

From the Sun, Derick said:

"We’re sad for Anna, put yourself in her situation and imagine how you would feel if that happened with your family member.

"I imagine it would be really hard."

Derick can drum up empathy for Anna, but calls Jazz's parents child abusers?

Despite his opinions of Josh and JB, Derrick has known Anna for many years. Even if there isn’t a lot of interaction, maybe he (and Jill) genuinely like Anna as a person and is trying to be supportive of her. He might have some empathy for her knowing that her husband is most likely going to prison for a while, or maybe he’s trying to keep a relationship between the cousins. 

2 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I really don't know what to make of this - 

From the Sun, Derick said:

"We’re sad for Anna, put yourself in her situation and imagine how you would feel if that happened with your family member.

"I imagine it would be really hard."

Derick can drum up empathy for Anna, but calls Jazz's parents child abusers?

Despite his opinions of Josh and JB, Derrick has known Anna for many years. Even if there isn’t a lot of interaction, maybe he (and Jill) genuinely like Anna as a person and is trying to be supportive of her. He might have some empathy for her knowing that her husband is most likely going to prison for a while, or maybe he’s trying to keep a relationship between the cousins. 

[ginger90]

Impart your freaking wisdom with a phone call, Amy. Why tag them? Idiot.