Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Loves2Dance]

We cannot forget the extreme patriarchy they live by. Part of their belief system centers around "umbrellas of authority" and protection. Women ALWAYS need to be under male authority, father and later husband. Because Josh is not currently able to meet their standards as her authority, she must live with either her father or Boob. Living alone with the kids is simply not an option. And I'm guessing she prefers all the hustle and bustle of the busy house, which might help take her mind off things, the friendship of Jana, Jinger and Joy, and all the free childcare.

This is also why I think John David made the statement he did in the special about his brother and how that was the hardest thing for him to say. In the Duggar family, Josh was the man of the family and if anything were to happen to JB, it would be him sliding into his shoes. Now that he's fallen from Grace a few too many times, that role shifts to John David. 

[DangerousMinds]

If JB had passed away while Josh still had the cushy DC job, does anyone really think he would have quit his job to rush home to Arkansas?

[Saylii]

If JB had passed away while Josh still had the cushy DC job, does anyone really think he would have quit his job to rush home to Arkansas?

If he was the executor of Jim Bob's estate, you bet he would. No middling father to deal with, holding all the purse strings of your entire family, and the ability to negotiate directly with TLC? We would be watching 19 Kids & Grieving right now. I also think he would have hired a good enough lawyer to suppress the molestation documents before they got out. He would have become an extra heaping of Smuggar, but I think he would have done it happily to control the empire.

Now if Jim Bob was going to make a lawyer the executor of his estate and let Michelle have the money, Josh would have sulked away to the nearest tabloid to spill as many beans as he could without besmirching his name.

[Wishing Well]

This is exactly what hit me. What unbelievable arrogance. Honestly the whole family's "We're so betrayed because our family stands for a belief in marriage" shtick is annoying. Anna, for pity's sake, a whole lot of the godless heathens are doing "marriage" much better than you and Josh have managed.

I'm living the single life and I'm doing better at marriage than those two.

[DangerousMinds]

Since Anna has always been so sheltered, I wonder if she is even aware of the many, many marriage/sex scandals that have become public over the years involving "Christians?" So so many.

[GeeGolly]

Since Anna has always been so sheltered, I wonder if she is even aware of the many, many marriage/sex scandals that have become public over the years involving "Christians?" So so many.

I wonder that too.

At least Anna has the insight to know that they were holding themselves up as an example of Christian marriage (whatever that is) and because of Josh they failed miserably.

[Loves2Dance]

I wonder that too.

At least Anna has the insight to know that they were holding themselves up as an example of Christian marriage (whatever that is) and because of Josh they failed miserably.

 

Given that their image was being used by the FRC for the young Christians of today, I'm not surprised that Anna understood how badly this looked. However, being completely honest, I think some of it is also likely embarrassment---whether she knows it or not. In her shoes, I would be embarrassed and I wasn't raised to believe it would have been my fault. 

[floridamom]

My opinion on Anna's current address is this: She is living with the Duggars because they can pay her bills for her. This girl does NOT KNOW HOW to live by herself and manage the economics of a simple household. I doubt that she knows much more than how to swipe a debit card at Aldi's, let alone pay bils, balance check registers, etc. I think Pa Keller and Pa Duggar spoke on the phone as to "who was to assume Anna + 4" and Pa Keller said that he couldn't afford 5 more in his household. Since it is JB'S SON'S FAULT that he screwed Anna's situation up, it was JB who should accept responsibility for his son's actions. Why they are treating Anna as an unmarried child, is beyond me. This grown woman WITH 4 CHILDREN of her own shouldn't be sleeping in the girl' dormitory. It is just "sick" IMO to do so. It goes to show you how this family, just piles them in like sardines in a can with little regard for anything else...except, of course, for King James Robert and Queen Michelle Annette.,.who have a suite AND A BATHROOM all to themselves..with a lock on the door, ON THE INSIDE.

[kokapetl]

I can only hope Anna gets to live in the pool house with her family as a "caretaker".

Edited December 19, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Muffyn]

Happy Holidays and New Years to everyone.   I took a little break from the Duggars.

 

So, since I attended a few Friday night sermons I was wondering if someone could tell me where Josh is.  Did he actually leave there?

 Just a little update.

 Thanks !

Cherrio, almost no one was watching last night.  I only saw the first half hour.  They switched up the format, so Cisco spoke first.  He had practiced up to tell us which bible verses to use to convert our heathen friends and relatives.  That's what Christmas is for - proselytizing!  he also subtly addressed some of the issues we had brought up on prior chats, such as why do actions not count/why is being saved enough, to heck with what you do (a.k.a. damn Catholics and their belief in good works) and we know we keep talking up how we are all sinners and god hates sinners, but god really is all about the love so forget our glee when bad things happen to people who sin, No defense of their sham counseling without trained counselors.  Another of our people signed on later.  I didn;t see the crowd at all so I had no potential Smuggar sighting.  

 

No middling father to deal with, holding all the purse strings of your entire family, 

And the typo of the day goes to SAYLII!  

Edited December 19, 2015 by Muffyn

[Cherrio]

Cherrio, almost no one was watching last night.  I only saw the first half hour.  They switched up the format, so Cisco spoke first.  He had practiced up to tell us which bible verses to use to convert our heathen friends and relatives.  That's what Christmas is for - proselytizing!  he also subtly addressed some of the issues we had brought up on prior chats, such as why do actions not count/why is being saved enough, to heck with what you do (a.k.a. damn Catholics and their belief in good works) and we know we keep talking up how we are all sinners and god hates sinners, but god really is all about the love so forget our glee when bad things happen to people who sin, No defense of their sham counseling without trained counselors.  Another of our people signed on later.  I didn;t see the crowd at all so I had no potential Smuggar sighting.  

 

And the typo of the day goes to SAYLII!  

Thanks Wescott and Muffyn.      I am tempted to sign on as Tub of Butter to try and seduce Cisco.

[Micks Picks]

All this time, and I am still trying to understand this "saved" business.  I really do not understand how you are saved and then all is good from then on.  If you belong to one of these churches, are there no real efforts at helping the poor and sick?  The New Testament is full of examples of Jesus doing good works.  I mean doing something, not praying over somebody.  When I think of the religious people I know who actually help others, not pray over them, it is hard to imagine churches or groups who feel no need to do so.

[Vaysh]

All this time, and I am still trying to understand this "saved" business.  I really do not understand how you are saved and then all is good from then on.  If you belong to one of these churches, are there no real efforts at helping the poor and sick?  The New Testament is full of examples of Jesus doing good works.  I mean doing something, not praying over somebody.  When I think of the religious people I know who actually help others, not pray over them, it is hard to imagine churches or groups who feel no need to do so.

 

Same here. I've never been able to understand the mindset that good works have no meaning when it comes to your faith or whether you'll go to heaven or not. Especially since the Bible is actually pretty clear that faith without accompanying works is a dead faith. (James 2:14-26 if I understand the passage correctly).

 

And it doesn't even make sense in their own context. Because it clearly matters what Josh did. His actions, or "works" or whatever you want to call it is why he was disgraced and sent to Jesus Jail for prayer and repentance and finding Jesus. But if you've been saved once and accepted Jesus as your saviour (which in Josh's case appears to have happened at least twice), isn't that enough? And if works are not important, why all the legalism? Why are the Duggars and their ilk so anxiously following all these petty, arbitrary rules if, in the end, they have no impact on their salvation?

 

Or is faith not enough to be saved if you do bad things but is enough to be saved when you just fail to do good things? It all sounds like a peculiar mix of control and cop out and it's very confusing to me.

[Churchhoney]

All this time, and I am still trying to understand this "saved" business.  I really do not understand how you are saved and then all is good from then on.  If you belong to one of these churches, are there no real efforts at helping the poor and sick?  The New Testament is full of examples of Jesus doing good works.  I mean doing something, not praying over somebody.  When I think of the religious people I know who actually help others, not pray over them, it is hard to imagine churches or groups who feel no need to do so.

 

Martin Luther: "The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us "

 

The idea is that once you're saved you will do good works, tons of them actually, on Luther's account. But the multiple good works you'll be doing all the time are a sign of your faith and your salvation. If you have faith and are saved, you'll be impelled from within to do good works. However, they aren't the means by which you get saved.

 

Aaaaaand .... judging by how many actual "good works" we've seen the Duggars do, what do we conclude about their state of faith and their salvation (from Luther's point of view anyway)? I don't think the giant bags of dum dums cut it.... Must say this makes me laugh.

 

(Of course, other Protestant theologians, such as Calvin, have somewhat different takes. Luther's was more or less the founding view for Protestants, though, and the other churches tend to have variations of what he said -- Of course, what actual present-day people do when they claim to be in accord with fundamental Protestant belief often varies wildly from what the founding documents said. Wildly, and without logical basis, just whatever strikes people's fancy -- whether that fancy is to be bigoted or lazy or whatever.... Much of religion as she is actually practiced is pure wishful thinking, as far as I'm concerned.)

Edited December 19, 2015 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

Good answer, Churchie, and also that helpful verse in Ephesians 2, 8-9:

 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

The Old Testament was clearer and better at "lest any man should boast", I feel - but it's the faith that comes first and brings the salvation.  The faith is not supposed to be tied to works, because tying it to works is like saying you can earn your way into heaven.  Otherwise, the belief goes, people would spend all their time worrying about whether or not they had "done enough" to earn salvation - which is a problem, in a world where God exists as an inchoate entity.  "God sees and knows the heart".  There's no "rescue 6 dogs from a burning building and also 2 marriages", blah de blah, because how would you ever "know" that this equals "salvation"?

 

in short, your salvation is not contingent on units you toll off on some mental abacus.  You don't have to earn your way.  Salvation is a free gift.  The salvation is supposed to inspire you to help the widows and orphans.  Merely building an orphanage, won't do doodly in reverse for salvation, if your heart isn't "right with God."

Edited December 20, 2015 by queenanne

[Micks Picks]

Something still doesn't feel right with this salvation business.  How would you know you are saved in the special way they seem to think they are saved.  Everybody apparently is saved.  If everybody is saved, that's it, all this special rules is unnecessary.  And a saved person would not be doing big sins like Josh has or a serial murderer or a man who starts fist fights with everybody.  Then again, all sins are the same to them, so that doesn't make any sense to me either.  To me if you loved God you'd want to help others.  You'd want their lives to improve in ways that improve access to food, health, and education and sanitation--that sort of thing.  People who don't love God because they say they don't believe manage to exhibit that behavior.  Why don't they?

Edited December 20, 2015 by Micks Picks

[GeeGolly]

Replying and asking questions related to the above discussion in the religion thread.

Edited December 20, 2015 by GeeGolly

[Churchhoney]

Something still doesn't feel right with this salvation business.  How would you know you are saved in the special way they seem to think they are saved.  Everybody apparently is saved.  If everybody is saved, that's it, all this special rules is unnecessary.  And a saved person would not be doing big sins like Josh has or a serial murderer or a man who starts fist fights with everybody.  Then again, all sins are the same to them, so that doesn't make any sense to me either.  To me if you loved God you'd want to help others.  You'd want their lives to improve in ways that improve access to food, health, and education and sanitation--that sort of thing.  People who don't love God because they say they don't believe manage to exhibit that behavior.  Why don't they?

 

But this is the wishful thinking part. You can't pin the way stupid, ignorant, venal, mean and, in the case of some of the Duggars, possibly insane people interpret a religion on the religion, or its scriptures or its theologians. These are very minor beings who want things in a certain way the way a tantrumming two-year-old does and they grab onto a "faith" (or a philosophy or a political ideology) and pretend that it means exactly what they want. 

 

They aren't interpreting theology accurately or consistently or with benign intent. They're just wanting to have their own way -- a stupid, psycho way, in this case -- and are grabbing onto bits and pieces of theology that they can toss together to make it seem (to them as well as to others) that their way is the right way and the best way. You can't look at their "theological interpretations" as being anything except the wishful thinking and arguing of a kid whose dog ate his homework or who swears he saw a burglar taking the cookies from the cookie jar. Except their excuses supposedly come from a revered book and a longstanding religious tradition, so they manage to convince some people that the excuses are accurate. 

 

We just can't conclude that the religion itself makes no sense because its interpretation by Josh, Anna, Jim Bob, Michelle and Gothard -- to cover their own heinies and make themselves feel good -- because these people are wishfully thinking, true dumb-asses who have no logic or reason at all but are mad with desire for rationalizations for their wants and behaviors. (which often boil down to -- I want everything I do to be right and everything anyone else does to be wrong.) What you're describing and naming isn't the Protestant faith as laid out by its theologians and serious adherents but as laid out by a bunch of idiots who grab onto it as a cover for doing whatever the hell they want. 

 

It's the misfortune of theologians and philosophers that there are way more people who'll do that kind of thing than there are people who will take ideas seriously and try to do right things rather than doing just what they want. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

[queenanne]

I also realized I wasn't very Joshy in my discussion, and have responded in Religion thread. :)

[Maizie131]

Must admit I watched the 2nd installment last night and, as others have said, I'm pissed I lost that hour of my life & want it back!  Every time one of them used that ridiculous phrase, "walking through...", I said to the TV -  "a pile of shit!"  Anyhow, this article on front page of FoxNews.com today.  Poor, poor Anna.  smh

 

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/12/21/no-duggar-divorce-anna-vows-to-stand-by-cheating-hubby-josh/?intcmp=hpff

[kokapetl]

Must admit I watched the 2nd installment last night and, as others have said, I'm pissed I lost that hour of my life & want it back! Every time one of them used that ridiculous phrase, "walking through...", I said to the TV - "a pile of shit!" Anyhow, this article on front page of FoxNews.com today. Poor, poor Anna. smh

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2015/12/21/no-duggar-divorce-anna-vows-to-stand-by-cheating-hubby-josh/?intcmp=hpff

No Duggar divorce! Anna vows to stand by cheating hubby Josh

(Spoiler alert! The following contains spoilers from "Jill & Jessa: Counting On")

Fox News lying like the Rupert Murdoch owned piece of garbage it is. Anna standing by Josh was apparently the only remotely spoiler worthy thing in the show.

Fun Fact!: Rupert Murdoch lost his Australian citizenship in 1985 when he acquired, through murky machinations, American citizenship to purchase the New York Post.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Kokapetl

[JoanArc]

I haven't watched the show yet, but I'm glad she addressed the marrying a molester thing. Now I can be free to hate her, without guilt. I do kinda doubt she knew right away, but she knew before the marriage. F anyone who does that, even if they think he's cured, or that you can put a positive spin on things. I don't envy her life situation, but she made this bed, in the Duggar girls dorm, he can lie in it. My infinite sympathy o the M'kids. They deserve nothing they've gotten in life.

[Tabbygirl521]

I haven't watched the show yet, but I'm glad she addressed the marrying a molester thing. Now I can be free to hate her, without guilt. I do kinda doubt she knew right away, but she knew before the marriage. F anyone who does that, even if they think he's cured, or that you can put a positive spin on things. I don't envy her life situation, but she made this bed, in the Duggar girls dorm, he can lie in it. My infinite sympathy o the M'kids. They deserve nothing they've gotten in life.

Who knows what she was actually told, though? Maybe it was described as non-invasive "curious" touching with the girls not protesting. And if the victims really were saying, "Oh, it was no big deal, and he has repent d anyway, and he hasn't done it again," Anna (the sheltered virgin) really might have had a very limited or accurate understanding of what this all entailed. Didn't she say something like she was extra shocked when she actually read the police report? (I may have that wrong.) More succinctly, she may have been lied to by people she has been conditioned to trust without question.

Couple all this with their very rigid belief system, and unquestioning obedience to parents who say you MUST forgive when a perp claims to be sorry, and it is a disaster.

This illustrates so clearly why it is wrong, wrong, wrong to perpetrate willful ignorance and "innocence" and to discourage critical thinking and independence, or acknowledging your true feelings. And Mommy and Daddy said he was The One and it was all OK with Jesus so that's that. My real question is whether her parents are equally simple and effed up due to their own upbringing. They pick sketchy spouses all the way around.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Tabbygirl521

[sometimesy]

Pity the M and M's, particularly the girls, because their parents, mother and father, are setting them up for a bleak future.

[Missy Vixen]

One has to wonder if Anna Smuggar has any idea at all how many people think she is deluding herself if she believes Joshley Madison has any ability to change. One also has to wonder what it is he's going to have to do that would be the last straw for her.

[Tabbygirl521]

One has to wonder if Anna Smuggar has any idea at all how many people think she is deluding herself if she believes Joshley Madison has any ability to change. One also has to wonder what it is he's going to have to do that would be the last straw for her.

I hate to think what that last straw would be. I am sure he will be on a very short leash. Will he rebel, sneak away, and do his thing? Will Anna ever be able to trust him off leash? Can he possibly be a changed person?

[JoanArc]

 

More succinctly, she may have been lied to by people she has been conditioned to trust without question.

I get what you're saying, and I believe it's possible, but at some point the responsibility falls to Anna. That point would be going on national TV, for a paycheck, and minimizing/defending/staying with Josh. She has to own it. That said, I'd like to kick Mister Keller right in the holiness sack, too. A molester and a gay guy, 'God' sure can pick 'em.

[Sew Sumi]

I get what you're saying, and I believe it's possible, but at some point the responsibility falls to Anna. That point would be going on national TV, for a paycheck, and minimizing/defending/staying with Josh. She has to own it. That said, I'd like to kick Mister Keller right in the holiness sack, too. A molester and a gay guy, 'God' sure can pick 'em.

Don't forget John Shrader, who forced Anna's sister and their (at the time) 6 or 7 kids to live in a pop up trailer. They're the ones now in Zambia where Esther is pregnant with her 9th or 10th kid, and John's conversion rate is not even a full handful. 

 

Anna's other sister is divorcing what was at first set up as another ATI relationship (although they both later denounced Gothard). The only successful relationships the Keller kids have are the two that weren't set up by the parents: Daniel/Candace and Suze/her boyfriend. So yeah, pretty grim batting average there, champ. 

[JoanArc]

 

Don't forget John Shrader, who forced Anna's sister and their (at the time) 6 or 7 kids to live in a pop up trailer. They're the ones now in Zambia where Esther is pregnant with her 9th or 10th kid, and John's conversion rate is not even a full handful.

I smell a 'Dillards do Africa' crossover mission plotline coming.

 

Re: The bad matches, yes, the Kellers sucked. I think the Duggars will, too. We've seen the best. Even pre-scandal their idea of hooking up a 17 and 18 year old in eternal bonds was the best they could do.

[BitterApple]

If I'm not mistaken, Suze got kicked to the curb when her boyfriend found out she was pregnant. Is she with someone new now?

My belief is that Anna was not told the full extent of Josh's crimes. Boob may have sold it as "Josh had inappropriate contact with a girl" however Anna took that to mean he got caught making out in the church's broom closet, not that he forcibly fondled five minors, including a five year-old.

Edited December 21, 2015 by BitterApple

[Tabbygirl521]

My belief is that Anna was not told the full extent of Josh's crimes. Boob may have sold it as "Josh had inappropriate contact with a girl" however Anna took that to mean he got caught making out in the church's broom closet, not that he forcibly fondled five minors, including a five year-old.

I'll bet you're right. I remember when tumors started swirling back in TWOP days. We gathered that something had happened, but most assumed it was something that typical people would have regarded as pretty normal.

I smell a 'Dillards do Africa' crossover mission plotline coming.

Re: The bad matches, yes, the Kellers sucked. I think the Duggars will, too. We've seen the best. Even pre-scandal their idea of hooking up a 17 and 18 year old in eternal bonds was the best they could do.

The beauty part is, Ma and Pa don't even have to feel guilty, since this was all God's will - for some incomprehensible reason.

[whydoiwatch]

My belief is that Anna was not told the full extent of Josh's crimes. Boob may have sold it as "Josh had inappropriate contact with a girl" however Anna took that to mean he got caught making out in the church's broom closet, not that he forcibly fondled five minors, including a five year-old.

 

Unless I misheard Anna last night (entirely possible as I only stopped on TLC briefly while channel surfing), she said again that she knew of what Josh had done and when the police report was released it did not provide any new details. All along, I too, thought she was given a cleaned up version of the ugly truth, but now I am not so sure.

[queenanne]

I'm a great believer in believing what people say, but I think Anna would have said "Oh yeah, sure, I knew it all", regardless of what actually fell from the explainers' lips.  Many a secular person would have sworn similarly.  The primary people I would think would not make this polite lie, would be people who actually wanted to leave their spouses.  She wants to stay with him, for whatever her reasons; she'll throw herself under the bus to make him look better.

[Sew Sumi]

If I'm not mistaken, Suze got kicked to the curb when her boyfriend found out she was pregnant. Is she with someone new now?

My belief is that Anna was not told the full extent of Josh's crimes. Boob may have sold it as "Josh had inappropriate contact with a girl" however Anna took that to mean he got caught making out in the church's broom closet, not that he forcibly fondled five minors, including a five year-old.

Yes, Suze has a new boyfriend who has a daughter of his own (about 6). Still unmarried, bit living in sin AFAIK. 

 

I also believe that Anna *might* have been told there was "sin in the camp," but she never learned the full extent of what really happened until she read the police report. Boob might not have told her parents much beyond that, aside from adding in the "porn addiction" from the campaign. making it appear that his transgressions were completely different than what they truly were. 

 

If she married the asshole knowing EVERYTHING, then I really can't feel that sorry for her. Reaping what you sow and all that... (see Derick, we heathens can throw that shit right back at you, dumbass!).

[poopchute]

Unless I misheard Anna last night (entirely possible as I only stopped on TLC briefly while channel surfing), she said again that she knew of what Josh had done and when the police report was released it did not provide any new details. All along, I too, thought she was given a cleaned up version of the ugly truth, but now I am not so sure.

Yes, she said the police report didn't reveal anything she didn't already know. Which is absolutely absurd. I will never believe that someone would say, upon first meeting your future wife's parents, "i molested 4 of my sisters and one other person too." I just cannot believe that he would say that, and that after learning that information that any sane person would say "yes I think this is the person you should spend the rest of your life with." I have no idea why she is telling this preposterous story but it can't possible true.

[MarysWetBar]

I bet i know her "last straw". But if she waits till then, there will be even more agony and guilt for her to live with for the rest of her life.

He was what? 14/15 years old when he "touched" his sisters, including a FIVE YEAR OLD?

I had sons. They knew better at that age and even younger. Smuggs was raised by two negligent morons with the belief that the world was his oyster, by virtue of the dangler in his nether region.

Women are inferior to him and any other man. Their bodies are not their own. He was well aware of that and acted on it. And was never treated for it. Ever.

So, let that sink in when thinking about Anna's last straw.

Edited December 22, 2015 by MarysWetBar

[GeeGolly]

I'm gonna give Anna a pass on marrying Josh and knowing about the molestations and then being shocked that Josh cheated on her. It's rare that someone marries anyone without a past. And while some pasts are more egregious than others, men & women do it all the time. Just look at all the "Other Women" who marry the cheating spouse they were hooking up with and then are surprised their husband cheats on them. Woman even marry men who are in jail. I'm not saying these are wise choices, but Anna is not alone in making poor marriage choices. And she is not alone in staying in unhealthy marriages either.

 

Anna was young, naive and had the blessings of adults she thought she could trust, adults that may also believed that Josh was a redeemed man. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

Funny how we never hear about Josh giving away Pieces of His Heart™. I guess it doesn't apply to Smugly. Can you imagine how Jim Bob et al would react if it were one of his daughters who cheated on their spouse?

[NEGirl]

Hi everyone, I had to take a break from the Duggars.

Watching that interview with Anna last night was so sad. It seemed obvious she was saying what she felt she should say and not what she wanted to say. Her pain was obvious as she was talking.

Did  Anna say she was surprised by the police report and that it went into much more detail than she was ever told?

I thinks Anna takes her marriage vows seriously and is determined to stay and work things out.  It will be interesting to see what happens if Josh cheats again, which I think he will. I also think she was doing a lot of acting last night: oh I love staying here with the girls etc, etc. After having a taste of life and freedom in DC, I think she hates her life now. She may be close to the girls but that does not mean she is happy living in a dorm. Meridith is adorable as are the other M's and she appears to be a good mother who loves her kids.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

I get what you're saying, and I believe it's possible, but at some point the responsibility falls to Anna. That point would be going on national TV, for a paycheck, and minimizing/defending/staying with Josh. She has to own it. That said, I'd like to kick Mister Keller right in the holiness sack, too. A molester and a gay guy, 'God' sure can pick 'em.

Let's not forget the King of Grifters he married poor Esther off to, John Schrader. Esther and most of the kids will probably die in Zambia. Before their missionary trip to convert Christians to Christianity, their massive brood was living in a pop up camper. The Keller women certainly married no blue ribbon prizes.

Edited December 22, 2015 by FakeJoshDuggar

[Wellfleet]

I hate to think what that last straw would be. I am sure he will be on a very short leash. Will he rebel, sneak away, and do his thing? Will Anna ever be able to trust him off leash? Can he possibly be a changed person?

 

My question as well. Just what would the last straw be? I think they will be back together for a while, maybe a few years, maybe not quite that long. But I just don't think Josh can do the upright-Christian, Dudley Do-Right husband and father bit. Not for long stretches of time. I think he loved living in Washington, out from under Boob's control [and pursestrings], away from the car lot and all the travel and opportunities the FRC position offered him. Like the proverbial traveling salesman, he could easily live a double life having that kind of job. Anna at home taking care of his kids - and himself - away from home for nights at a time - sitting in a hotel bar waiting for whatever. I think he's truly kicking himself for wrecking that situation. For what he wanted, he had it made.

[Anne Elk]

I think Anna was told what happened, but she was told the version that the Duggars claimed in their Megyn Kelly interview -- Josh was too curious about girls, he cried and confessed, he repented and gave his heart to Jesus. And then imagine the guilt they would have laid on her to accept this story. Both her parents and the Duggars (who were probably considered Gothardite roaylty at the time) were telling her that it was God's will that she marry Josh. By the tenets of her own religion, she has to believe him unquestioningly when he says he's repented. She's been raised to believe authority unconditionally, period. I'm sure she was told she had a "choice" but just like everything else in these religious cults, there were a lot of unspoken pressures on her to make the choice they wanted her to make.

 

Anna is the perfect result of cult education -- she's never going to choose anything other than the cult way. She absolutely believes that Jesus's plan is for her to be a doormat. I think even if Josh told her he didn't believe in Jesus and wanted to live the rest of his life as an atheist, she still wouldn't leave him. It would be her cross to bear, and if she prayed hard enough then Jesus would surely change his heart.

[GeeGolly]

I'm wondering if, when Josh was praying for a wife, he and his parents figured he should pray low. In other words, did they truly believe he found Jesus and was living a Christian life, or did they think he was damaged goods. And did Josh think he was damaged goods?

 

Are/were the Kellers bottom shelf Gothardites? And is that the highest Joshie and his parents thought he could reach? 

[RazzleberryPie]

I'll volunteer to do it. Im sure there is a dull rusty knife somewhere in the house here.

They're in the big out building. Remember when one of the Howlers bought bucket full and he and Jim bob gloated about how people would buy anything and hey could resell the junk knives.

[Marigold]

I have a 15 year old son and a 4 year old daughter. (and other children).

If my 15 year old son ever touched my 4 year old daughter, he would be in so much couseling etc. How Michelle and Jim Bob tossed this up to "curiosity" is really very ignorant and sick. NEVER EVER would i let that behavior go like it's no big deal. Just looking at my 6'2" son and my 4 year old daughter and thinking that Josh did that to little girls????? Really scary.

Jess and jill were young when this happened and they were told that it was no big deal and it was just kid stuff. As married women with a baby, they are fully processing (as much as they can) what Josh did and what his sick behavior lead up to. I'm sure Ben and Dereck aren't too impressed with a family that lets a brother finger up your wife when she was a child.

Maybe that's why Ben is so aloof? I wonder if he just hates Josh and how jim Bob handled it? I don't think ben is smart enough to think of all that but you don't know. Michael Seewald...didn't he write a harsh blog post about Josh? Who knows what Ben's hidden opinion is. Dereck is smart enough to smile for the cameras.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I'm wondering if, when Josh was praying for a wife, he and his parents figured he should pray low. In other words, did they truly believe he found Jesus and was living a Christian life, or did they think he was damaged goods. And did Josh think he was damaged goods?

 

Are/were the Kellers bottom shelf Gothardites? And is that the highest Joshie and his parents thought he could reach?

I'm sure that since the whole Gothard/Duggar belief system is full of shame and blame I'm sure a good many of their adherents feel like damaged goods.

[Ljohnson1987]

If forcibly touching your siblings isn't a problem... I wonder what the Duggars' think are? Dancing, showing your knees? Wow! Those are HORRIBLE compared to what Josh did. *Eye Roll*

[BitterApple]

If forcibly touching your siblings isn't a problem... I wonder what the Duggars' think are? Dancing, showing your knees? Wow! Those are HORRIBLE compared to what Josh did. *Eye Roll*

Remember the scene from one of the old epis where Jackson was very young and started dancing in the thrift shop? Jana flew over to him and stopped him at warp speed, because a six year-old having fun was the REAL danger in that family. Never mind Josh and his "busy hands."

[DangerousMinds]

I thought Michael Seewald's blog defended Josh? Who can remember these people's BS.

[Guest]

Remember the scene from one of the old epis where Jackson was very young and started dancing in the thrift shop? Jana flew over to him and stopped him at warp speed, because a six year-old having fun was the REAL danger in that family. Never mind Josh and his "busy hands."

 

Jana was placed into an awkward position by the camera crew who pointed out Jackson's dancing to her as something violating their beliefs. She said, "Oh, he's just jumping for joy," and then quietly redirected him, because she knew her parents would see the footage...