Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Gianthambeast]

I hope this scandal permanently dismantles the Duggar franchise that has been pushed in our faces as a model of wholesome family values for so many years despite its blatant misogyny, disdain for education, and fanatical devotion to the warped ethos of a known pervert (Gothard).  Even more, I hope now the girls who were victimized (and all the kids) can get out from under the thumb of these people and get to lead normal lives and proper education. 

[CherryAmes]

If none of them have medical  insurance (I don't know if they do), then their counseling will no doubt, be free, thanks to Obamacare.

 

I'm Canadian so forgive me for asking but I've always understood Obamacare is about making sure people have health insurance not that people get free health care.  Have I got that wrong?

[MrsMommy]

I thought one of the girls wrote a letter and stuck it in a book when it all happened back in the day, and the book was just loaned out and the person who borrowed the book is the one who brought it to the cops? Am I wrong?

[VioletNevermind]

The show is still featured on the TLC website, but no longer on the landing page.  That coveted spot is occupied by "The Willis Family," a.k.a. Duggars-lite.  

 

Insignificant factoid: 19K&C is still on Comcast OnDemand.  One of the available episodes is the one from 2011 where the kids are learning Spanish from Analucia Jackson- Marjorie's mom.  Also available is "Emotional Goodbye," when Josh leaves for DC.  I wonder when these episodes will be pulled.

Edited May 22, 2015 by SuzyLee

[MrsMommy]

I hope this scandal permanently dismantles the Duggar franchise that has been pushed in our faces as a model of wholesome family values for so many years despite its blatant misogyny,

Nothing was pushed in our faces, we chose to watch them, they didn't make us.

[dillpickles]

http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=26083

Pretty interesting, don't y'all think?

[Cherrio]

"Effective immediately, TLC has pulled all episodes of 19 Kids and Counting currently from the air. We are deeply saddened and troubled by this heartbreaking situation, and our thoughts and prayers are with the family and victims at this difficult time."

https://www.facebook.com/TLC/posts/10155626312840173

They waited too long, but finally some network righteous fulfillment !            A reporter on MSNBC just called the family the Doogars.    

[Pete Martell]

Nothing was pushed in our faces, we chose to watch them, they didn't make us.

 

I didn't choose to have to see them staring back at me on People every time I went into a store.

[RainbowBrite]

The parents are hypocites who brought it on to themselves. The kids are not. The kids didn't choose this.

 

I believe this is a tragedy for everyone in the family including JB and Michelle.

 

 

 

 

I often have differing opinions from posters on this forum, but I can usually at least understand and respect where they're coming from. Can you explain how you feel this way about JB and Michelle in this situation? It seems as though this is so much their doing.

[Rhondinella]

Let's not get into a discussion of Obamacare or American health care in general in here please.  It's everything the mods can do today to keep up with this forum as it is.  Thanks.

[Jellybeans]

 

Yes, Josh was a victim to some degree, given the ultra-repressive atmosphere JB and Michelle have created. But, in the end, his actions were his own; he was old enough to have some concept that what he was doing was wrong, but he did it anyway.

This is what I am conflicted by. How was Josh supposed to know he was doing something wrong when his parents were very open about how they get to have sex but no masturbation (but let your parents dry hump, so much fun!) no dating, no outlets, no genuine talks.... he is 14!!!!

[BitterApple]

I think the older girls (obviously), JD and maybe Joseph knew what happened, but the Howlers and the Littles didn't know. There may have been vague references to an "incident" several years back but I don't think they were aware of the dirty details. Grandma for sure knew what was going on and her moving into the TTH makes sense.

Edited May 22, 2015 by BitterApple

[JennyMominFL]

This is what I am conflicted by. How was Josh supposed to know he was doing something wrong when his parents were very open about how they get to have sex but no masturbation (but let your parents dry hump, so much fun!) no dating, no outlets, no genuine talks.... he is 14!!!!

I think he clearly knew  it was wrong because he hid it, and he did it when the girls were isolated or asleep.

[cereality]

I know they won't do it because they don't think anything is wrong in their family structure -- but if I were the parents today, I'd be calling a meeting to specifically talk to the kids about what Josh did. None of this "he made a mistake and we're all imperfect beings and God forgives," but specifically saying "Josh touched the vag and breasts of 5 of the girls in this room and that is never acceptable. He's still our brother and son and we love him, but he and Anna need to work through whatever counseling they may need and decide where there will be living/working etc." In the meantime, I'd enforce some strict standards re normal life around that house. Every kid in that house better be working or going to school -- regular public school. JB should get his ass down to the district and enroll the 10 or so school aged kids for the fall. Get them all assessed and if it means that a 16 yr old is at 8th grade level -- well I guess he'll be plenty busy all summer doing tutoring and classes with someone other than the Querys to catch up. If the kids over 18 aren't going to school -- get a job; doesn't matter if it's at the grocery store or digging ditches. These kids are entirely too separated from society and have learned nothing from anyone but their parents -- and obviously their parents didn't get it right.

 

I'm not saying that Josh wouldn't have done this if he went to regular school, but if he had had regular interaction with guys his age -- he would have learned how big of a deal it is to touch any female. He would have known that so-and-so are holding hands in 5th grade, he would have heard guys talk about "going around the bases" in middle school and high school and how much the guys want to and many/most girls don't allow it. It would have occurred to him that touching a boob is a big freaking deal -- you don't just go grab your sisters' cause you're curious, you're not a 4 yr old playing dr. 

[Jellybeans]

I think he clearly knew  it was wrong because he hid it, and he did it when the girls were isolated or asleep.

But his parents did it "while the kids were sleeping". You have to think like a 14year old...

[Gianthambeast]

Nothing was pushed in our faces, we chose to watch them, they didn't make us.

I don't mean shoved in our faces as in  "forced to watch," I mean that they are  constantly being touted as an example by politicos, other fundies, People magazine, as well as the advertisers that latched onto their bullshit wholesome all-American-Christian family narrative.

 

For those who do watch TLC regularly, yeah, they are kind of forced to watch when that channel is running its constant Duggar marathons. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[CofCinci]

http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=26083

Pretty interesting, don't y'all think?

Ducking Hobby Lobby.

[galax-arena]

But his parents did it "while the kids were sleeping". You have to think like a 14year old...

I think you're underestimating 14-year-olds. And yeah, I know Josh's growth was stunted in certain ways because of his environment, but I still believe he was past the kind of little kid logic that you're talking about. That's something I'd expect from a 6- or 7-year-old. A look at the earliest Duggar documentaries - when Josh was what, 16 years old? - shows him to be fairly articulate and on his age level (or at least, not demonstrably younger/immature), IMO. 

[CherryAmes]

But his parents did it "while the kids were sleeping". You have to think like a 14year old...

 

Most 14 yr olds know their parents have sex and that this doesn't mean it's ok for them.  The Duggars may have taken "purity" for the unmarried to an extreme but I really don't fault them for drawing a line between what is acceptable behavior for a married couple and what is acceptable for a teenager, that's not so very different from the way most unDuggar families are after all.

[dillpickles]

But his parents did it "while the kids were sleeping". You have to think like a 14year old...

Thats more on par with a 5 year olds logic. Josh knew his sisters wouldn't be okay with getting touched, but he wanted to grab and feel, so, he did it while they where asleep.

[cereality]

I always wondered why Josh was never close with any of his siblings and why the siblings generally seem so uncomfortable or formal with each other. The 4 older girls are close and you hear them interact in casual ways that you'd expect of siblings, and JD and Joseph seem to hang out some. But I always thought that it was odd that Josh as the oldest son was left out of the sibling relationships; I mean the only sibling we've seen him interact with in a fun way is Josiah -- and that's a pretty big age difference of probably 8-10 years who has probably heard over the years re an "incident" that Josh repented for but didn't know the details.

 

Contrast that to Zach Bates -- he seems to interact with all of the siblings in his age group and has substantive things to say about them in a way that an oldest brother would.

[JennyMominFL]

Yeah, I raised 4 teens. They were homeschooled  although not anywhere near as isolated as the Duggars. They knew that was wrong at 14. Even if Josh was immature that's still thinking along the lines of a 7 year old 

[wanderwoman]

I'm late to this discussion and I've tried to read all the posts. I want to point out one thing- often, molestation is a learned behavior. The statistics suggest that molesters were often molested themselves. I'm not defending Josh's transgressions or the manner in which they handled it. I suspect a lot of the old rumors were true and I think there were more victims of this patriarchal regime who were afraid to come forward due, in part, to the political tunes, network ties, and money involved in the ATI System. I know I'm rethinking my assesment of certain people. Josh was and is responsible for his choices. However, I suspect he's not the only boy raised in this system who molested a sibling. Whenever you pair patriarchy with a "blame the victim for her appearance" , you get a kid with messed up ideas regarding sex. The natural curiosity and exploration is pushed to the dark recesses of a home and the shame involved is enough to silence the victim. There have been, now completely believable, rumors surrounding Gothard, Quiverful families for years. My hope is that this exposure leads to a deeper investigation of the organization.

What concerns me most about this is the report stating that two lawyers refused to take on the Josh as a client. Lawyers get the inside scoop and Jim Bob retaining counsel for Josh and postponing the interview says more about Jim Bob than Josh. Add to that the admission that Josh was sent to a "program in Little Rock" that wasn't really an incorporated program and the fact that Josh's warden wasn't a certified counsellor or therapist, but a "mentor" (source: police report) and we can infer that Josh really didn't get help. Neither did his victims.

This is what happens when you isolate your children in a sexually repressive environment and cede parenting to children. I'm not saying Jim Bob and Michelle should've casted their teenage son out into the streets, but I think we cab safely assume Michelle isn't mother if the year and that this show should've never been allowed to start. And, the family motto....? "Never raise a hand to hit..."? Well, hands are bad, but rods are perfectly fine, apparently.

Edited May 22, 2015 by wanderwoman

[JoanArc]

Josh & Anna, Benessa, and Jerrick are still listed as speakers at the Alive festival this summer:

 

http://alive.org/speakers/

 

I think it's safe to say that gig is....dead.

Edit: I emailed them.

 

 

Josh is still on that college's board's website, too.

Edited May 22, 2015 by JoanArc

[Darknight]

The thumpers are horrible people. How can anyone defend his actions

[roamyn]

The thumpers are horrible people. How can anyone defend his actions

It makes me ill, all these 'holier than thou', 'what about forgiveness', assholes complaining abt TLC pulling the plug. Really? Seriously? what about the victims , you ....I can't think of a name bad enough to call these ass humpers. Edited May 22, 2015 by roamyn

[Jellybeans]

You can't throw Josh in jail for something he did at 14. That is not how our system works. I am not a fan of Josh but I am a fan of our legal system.

[SoSueMe]

This is what I am conflicted by. How was Josh supposed to know he was doing something wrong when his parents were very open about how they get to have sex but no masturbation (but let your parents dry hump, so much fun!) no dating, no outlets, no genuine talks.... he is 14!!!!

Yeah well, like you say he was 14. Already had been taught that hugging, kissing and holding hands was not allowed. Quite a stretch to think he felt sexually exploring his sisters was okay. After all, he is of normal intelligence.

[graefin]

They waited too long, but finally some network righteous fulfillment !            A reporter on MSNBC just called the family the Doogars.    

Is it a big deal that TLC is no longer airing reruns? I think the more relevant question is whether they will air future seasons.

[Jellybeans]

Yeah well, like you say he was 14. Already had been taught that hugging, kissing and holding hands was not allowed. Quite a stretch to think he felt sexually exploring his sisters was okay. After all, he is of normal intelligence.

but is it normal for parents to dry hump in all sorts of ways? is that not hmmmm......stimulating a 14 year old hormonal boy's mind? was josh exposed to some sort of parental porn?

[Darknight]

A reminder folks, a waaays back I posted the definitions of molest and pedophilia. Josh molested some girls when he himself was a minor. We don't know if he's a pedophile. Molester =/= pedophile.

Wasn't the youngest girl 4? And Josh 14. I don't know the laws in Arkansas but that's pedophilla

[Saylii]

The thing I don't get is how the statute of limitations has passed for prosecuting Josh for the abuse. I thought (perhaps wrongly) that when it comes to children and molestation and with basically anything under that sexual umbrella there is no statute of limitations. I have definitely heard stories of adults prosecuting their childhood molestors years after everything had stopped. How is Josh avoiding this? Is Arkansas really that backwards?

Basically in Arkansas victims/prosecutors have three years to charge someone after the abuse has been reported. The Springdale Police Department would have had to have felt whatever statement had been made to State Trooper Hutchins started the clock on the three years. Some states even recognize reporting to church officials as starting the clock, so the earlier confession to Gothard and the elders may have come into play as well.

The reason you see a lot of cases prosecuted now after a long length of time is a) it wasn't reported until recently, b) it wasn't remembered until recently, or c) there was physical evidence with rape kits being collected at the time of reporting (depends on the state, not sure if Arkansas makes exceptions for new testing of physical evidence).

It also helped Josh a lot that he was a minor. Aside from the incest stuff which may have added more charges, the sexual assualt charges would have only netted him a class A misdemeanor at the time.

The only way Josh could face charges now is if a new girl comes forward or he performed some of his acts at an ATI conference in Texas which has stronger sexual assualt laws.

[kalamac]

Even if Josh didn't know it was wrong the very first time he did it (which I personally don't believe, no matter how sheltered his upbringing was), it's been clearly stated that he was spoken to about it, and then later did it again. There are no excuses for those incidents.

[3 is enough]

CNN just did a segment about the scandal.  They brought in a psychiatrist, Dr Gail Saltz, and she basically said that confessing to your church, praying, and doing manual labor is NOT therapy, and that Josh was at a risk to repeat this behavior until he understood WHY he did it.  Also the victims needed proper counselling too.  She addressed their culture where women are subservient to men and how the victims may be made to feel guilty.  All stuff that most of us as sane adults already figured out, but reassuring to hear it from an expert on national tv.  She certainly sounded like she was informed about the circumstances, family dynamic, and beliefs.

 

I really think CPS needs to investigate both Jim Bob's and Josh's families.  

 

But with everything falling apart so quickly, I am a little worried about a Jim Jones/Waco scenario.  They are certainly reeling and panicking enough for something really bad to happen.

Edited May 22, 2015 by 3 is enough

[Bella]

Wasn't the youngest girl 4? And Josh 14. I don't know the laws in Arkansas but that's pedophilla

 

We're sticking with "molestation" here. That's the policy.

[natyxg]

"Effective immediately, TLC has pulled all episodes of 19 Kids and Counting currently from the air. We are deeply saddened and troubled by this heartbreaking situation, and our thoughts and prayers are with the family and victims at this difficult time."

https://www.facebook.com/TLC/posts/10155626312840173

 

I am not happy with this. Rather than a firm decision to cancel it seems like they are throwing something out there to see the response and would be willing to wait for the storm to die down and then bring the show back if enough fans said they would want it to. Sort of the A&E  response to the Duck Dynasty controversy, they backtracked as soon as the fans became loud.

 

The comments of support in the link, belittling his actions and completely disregarding the victims feelings and the hypocrisy of the family upset me so, frankly.

 

Another day, another bit of faith in humanity lost.

[farmgal4]

Dr. Phil is on right now which made me think: Who wants to bet that the good doctor has already contacted the Duggars/Josh begging for an exclusive interview?

[Darknight]

I often have differing opinions from posters on this forum, but I can usually at least understand and respect where they're coming from. Can you explain how you feel this way about JB and Michelle in this situation? It seems as though this is so much their doing.

JimChelle chose their lifestyle for their kids. JimChelle knew gothard abused girls but still sent their daughters to JTTH. They knew about the abuse but it wasn't until Harpo got involved that he was forced to go to the police but knew that if he went to his dirty cop friend Josh wouldn't be charged. He lied. JimChelle is just as much to blame as Josh. They didn't get their kids help they probably told their kids to forgive Josh and again swept it under the rug. So screw JimChelle as well.

Also tlc knew. This shit happened during 14kids, 16kids and moving in. That was 2004&2006. So they probably knew if Harpo knew.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Darknight

[What In The]

Here's my take. Yes, it was wrong of Josh to do and it should have been handled AT THE TIME OT FIRST HAPPENED. There should have been extensive counseling and Josh being moved away from his sisters. The parents needed to be looked at as well.

Is hee really sorry? God knows better than anyone andif Josh really repented then that is good. But now his TLC gig and job are probably done for good.

Lastly, Anna's parents should NOT have let her court or mary him at 20 with no skills to fall back on and him not having a decent education.

[Pete Martell]

Is it a big deal that TLC is no longer airing reruns? I think the more relevant question is whether they will air future seasons.

 

It's a shell game. The "currently" is a good bet that they will just wait a few months and then come back with a fresh coat of paint, knowing the media will be more focused on matters like whether Kendall Jenner got a new purse. In the meantime they can whip up fervor from those who feel out of control America-hating liberals are all plotting against the Duggars so you need to watch every TLC marathon and buy every People cover story if you want to show what freedom is all about.

CNN just did a segment about the scandal.  They brought in a psychiatrist, Dr Gail Saltz, and she basically said that confessing to your church, praying, and doing manual labor is NOT therapy, and that Josh was at a risk to repeat this behavior until he understood WHY he did it.  Also the victims needed proper counselling too.  She addressed their culture where women are subservient to men and how the victims may be made to feel guilty.  All stuff that most of us as sane adults already figured out, but reassuring to hear it from an expert on national tv.  She certainly sounded like she was informed about the circumstances, family dynamic, and beliefs.

 

I wonder how she got on CNN talking sense...

[3 is enough]

 

Dr. Phil is on right now which made me think: Who wants to bet that the good doctor has already contacted the Duggars/Josh begging for an exclusive interview?

NO.  Please, Just NO.  Those poor kids have suffered enough already.  Get them help by all means, but not on camera.

[Bella]

Here's my take on TLC pulling from the schedule now and not cancelling it yet.

 

Lawyers move slowly. They also are known to take off early on a 3-day weekend. This is Memorial Day weekend, and I'm betting that the TLC attorneys who were in the office were racing to leave, with annoyed spouses and impatient children wanting to head to the beach, mountains, wherever. This decision very well could have been made by 3 people on smartphones, one in a Costco while buying bulk burgers for a weekend cookout with his/her spouse, one with his/her spouse driving toward a beach house, and the third at home with two whining kids demanding to know when they were going to leave. That's just one fictitious but, to me, plausible scenario for the fast but incomplete decision.

 

I think this show is over, and that will be made official next week.

[RainbowBrite]

JimChelle chose their lifestyle for their kids. JimChelle knew gothard abused girls but still sent their daughters to JTTH. They knew about the abuse but it wasn't until Harpo got involved that he was forced to go to the police but knew that if he went to his dirty cop friend Josh wouldn't be charged. He lied. JimChelle is just as much to blame as Josh. They didn't get their kids help they probably told their kids to forgive Josh and again swept it under the rug. So screw JimChelle as well.

Also tlc knew. This shit happened during 14kids, 16kids and moving in. That was 2004&2006. So they probably knew if Harpo knew.

I totally get that, that's why I was asking the original poster why she felt so terribly for JB & Michelle at this junction.

[MarysWetBar]

There is no way in hell that Pa Seewald is gonna be able to keep his trap shut about all this. I hope the Seewald family and the Dillards circle the wagons around those poor girls and show them what real support is.

Edited May 22, 2015 by MarysWetBar

[Pete Martell]

The comments of support in the link, belittling his actions and completely disregarding the victims feelings and the hypocrisy of the family upset me so, frankly.

 

I think my "favorite" is, "I know I did things I shouldn't have at 15!"

 

You'd think he stayed out an hour late or went to a concert without telling his parents where he was. Then again certain fans would be more upset by this than someone sexually abusing their siblings.

 

"He got counseling! I'm proud of him!"

 

You're proud of him because he learned how to build a deck? Maybe he'll really show his remorse by building a treehouse.

 

"I'm a therapist and I've worked with people and he seems fine to me!"

 

Watching DVDs of Dr. Katz doesn't make you a therapist.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Fatkat]

"Even though I suspect it was because of Josh's severely repressed upbringing and no access to other girls and probably being told any sexual acting out (like healthy masturbation) is sinful"  

 

THIS!!!!  I feel Josh has been a victim in this as well and that the blame falls entirely on his parents' shoulders.  This is all too much "Flowers in the Attic."  

 

(FATKAT COMMENT --- sorry for being tech-un savvy)

I disagree with "This!!!". It's biologically repellant for a healthy teen to be attracted to his sister, no matter how prudish his parents are; It's easier to masturbate than molest your sister.

 

As far as TLC's knowledge goes, from what I read in the police report, Harpo Studios received a fax and then reported it (which instigated the investigation). I have a strong hunch that TLC got that same fax. TLC has a lot of explaining to do.

 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Fatkat

[Wellfleet]

TLC's going to be in dire straits. The Willises aren't cutting it as Duggars 2.0; the newer little-people shows are interchangeable, and the Little Couple isn't adopting any more kids for the time being, presumably. And really, how many more wedding dresses can we sit through?

 

So many of the other shows -- Breaking Amish, the gypsy ones -- are just tawdry. It's going to be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

You just said a mouthful, Literata. I think we should all be afraid - very afraid...

[zenme]

Dr. Phil is on right now which made me think: Who wants to bet that the good doctor has already contacted the Duggars/Josh begging for an exclusive interview?

 

Oh, yeah.  And if that show airs--I'm there! Any books come out? I'm buying those too.

[Bella]

Maybe TLC could go back to being The Learning Channel. Just a thought. 

[3 is enough]

I have to say the bridezillas and their bitchy entourages are looking pretty good to me today...