S01.E06: Samson and Delilah

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Pros And Khans In The Latest The Night Of

Legal process, detective work, accurate boozing, the politics of courtroom fashion, and more awesome moments from 'Samson And Delilah.'

[JJWatt]

1 hour ago, The Hound Lives said:

That deer head...dammit. I am with you that there will be some tie-in with it. 
And your last statement, I fear this. I can see that playing out but I have a pit in my stomach thinking about it. Or, Naz is released but is killed in retaliation for something that happened behind bars. Maybe that is why we keep seeing the deer head. Naz is currently the hunted and becomes someones trophy kill. 
My God...that reads like fan-fiction. Ignore me. :)

That deer head was shown in the promos, before the show even aired. I really think it has  to have something to do with the outcome too, like maybe it has a camera or something to that effect in it. 

[AuntiePam]

I like the idea of a camera in the deer head, but even if there isn't, it seems like there should be more video surveillance in high-end neighborhoods like Andrea's. 

The pacing/structure of this series has been quite different from what we're accustomed to.  There have been so many quick shots, blended with long scenes that don't seem to mean much until later on.  I think when it's over, we'll be satisfied that we've seen something different, but worth our time.  But I hope there aren't a bunch of copycats, because it's discomfiting and jangly, not being able to figure out what's going on.  Not to mention watching the "experts" who don't seem to be doing a very good job. 

[bagatelle]

3 hours ago, Drogo said:

Also, Petey's mom smuggles those individually-wrapped marshmallows into visitation for Freddy in exchange for Petey being "protected." 

Freddy would probably be none-too-thrilled at Vic's "urges" compromising his marshmallow imports. 

Does Petey even know what's going on?  That kid looks half brain dead to me.

I thought the show jumped the shark this episode. We had no follow up to the cliffhanger from last week. Stone's feet seem to have miraculously cleared up over night, without so much as some red skin or flakiness left behind. Without warning, Chandra is getting drunk. Naz's father just happens to knock at her door.  Is NYC that small that he would be in the delivery takeout area?

Stone didn't tell Naz or his mother, to wear a plain suit. Don't we see all those bad boy celebrity types going to trial, not only in a button down shirt, but suddenly wearing horn rim glasses for the first time. And Stone didn't think to mention it to the mother?

Finally, since Stone seems to have had  this eureka moment, wondering if the stepfather had a financial motive to kill Andrea and with so many new leads to follow, shouldn't he have filed some continuances to investigate all these leads?

[Kiss my mutt]

I'm betting that Stone will let the cat out of the room in the end.  Maybe he can't free Naz but he can free the cat.  And yes, he should hit up the Chinese doctor for something for allergies too. I almost cried tears of joy when I saw his eczema had cleared up. It was such a needed victory and should put some pep into his step. I loved when he put on those new shoes. I was just so happy for him!

[humbleopinion]

I'll play Devil's Advocate...

Naz is convicted and sent to the The Big House.

Stone takes cat back to the Kill Shelter.

At home, Stone reaches for a chopstick to absentmindedly scratch foot, apparently eczema has returned.....and scene... fade to black.

[Gobi]

Did anyone recognize the kid spray painting the lockers? Was it Stone's son? Naz's brother?

[clb1016]

Naz's brother.

[BetyBee]

9 hours ago, preeya said:

As I've stated previously, I've been an eczema sufferer for most of my life (still are). Just wondering if a trip to Chinatown is in the offing. Anyone with real life knowledge, jump in here.

I've dealt with it for the last 10 years and I've tried almost everything.  Like the people in the meeting, I'm envious/intrigued with this miracle cure!

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, bagatelle said:

Is NYC that small that he would be in the delivery takeout area?

Actually, the answer is yes.  I use Fresh Direct a lot, and I have seen the same delivery people, so yes, it's possible.

I don't think the show has jumped the shark.  I know that I am old and I have watched a lot of TV in my time, but not everybody has.  I also know a show like this works better when you binge watch it.  I really think it's interesting and is telling a story that you can't tell too may times.  

Our system says, "innocent until proven guilty" meaning the state has the burden of proof.  But in most cases, the state has the resources.  Naz's mother was let go from her job because of what happened to Naz, which is fucking immoral and now she's cleaning floors, and his father is delivering food.  It's not just Naz who is in jail now.  And if Naz is innocent, should he even be in Rikers?  The idea of Rikers is people like serial killers or people who will probably flee the country should stay there before trial.  How many wealthy defendants have made bail and flown the coup?  

The thing that ticked me off about Box, was that when he talked to Naz's teacher, the TEACHER didn't even mention that what Naz did happened after 9/11, which to me was like, duh, the other boy probably said some racist shit and got thrown down the stairs for it.  It wasn't right, but the coach didn't even mention 9/11 and neither did Box which I thought was stupid and shows that Box probably should retire.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, bagatelle said:

Finally, since Stone seems to have had  this eureka moment, wondering if the stepfather had a financial motive to kill Andrea and with so many new leads to follow, shouldn't he have filed some continuances to investigate all these leads?

No court in the land would allow it. Beyond the jury considerations if defense counsel could get away with that... trials would go on forever. I see Scott Rudin is a consultant but man the legal stuff on this show is not right. First, what lawyer, even pro bono doesn't BUY the suit for the def't to insure it is what they want. Most attorneys bring the clothing to the def't so they can talk with him before trial.

Chandra broke the number one rule.. don't ask a snarky question you don't know the answer to. That cop made her look pretty foolish.

Also if this trial is so big that Nancy Grace is covering it... why was Chandra worried about undertaker guy having her card. Obviously wouldn't be too hard to find her. Likely she would have been on TV one or two times if just leaving the courthouse.

[Ellaria]

8 hours ago, Neurochick said:

The police seemed both overworked and ineffective, the motive 95% of the time is always $$$.  I'm surprised Box, for all his smarts didn't wonder who stood to gain from Andrea's death?  And why didn't that lawyer say anything?  The Step Dad wasn't his client...

...The DA is so fucking off putting, she's fucking annoying me. 

Yes, the money angle is huge and someone other than Stone should have/would have looked into. Was their a will? Was the brownstone a probate asset? Did the estate have an executor? I don't care that it looks like Naz is guilty. You have a victim with a history of drug problems living alone in a highly valued piece of real estate after the death of her mother who had recently married a much younger man. Come on...

And agree with the complaint about Helen. Completely off-putting. No nuance with her character at all. 

7 hours ago, patty1h said:

With clues now pointing to the step father, it will be VERY convenient if he picked the night that Naz hooked up with Andrea to go in and kill her.   So, I wonder...

1) Was it pre-planned...

2) Did he hire some thugs (Duane Reade, etc.) and pay them off for their silence?

3) Did he sneak in himself, not even realizing that Naz was there, kill Andrea and sneak out?...

Yes, very convenient. Regardless, neither Box or Helen thought it important to investigate him a bit further. The problem is that they have exhibited little interest in the victim or her circle of friends, etc. Some due diligence is in order if, for no other reason, the defense comes up with something that the prosecution hasn't considered. (Which seems appears to be the direction this is headed.)

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And I still feel like there's a big chunk of the story that's too convenient in its absence: more info about Andrea. We are constantly seeing Nancy Grace and her ilk talking about the case on television - so much so that you'd think it was the biggest story since the OJ trial. And yet, what little we know about Andrea makes her seem like a very sketchy person, and now we learn the circumstances of her death proved to be very convenient for someone who would benefit from it. Why aren't the TV people talking about that, and why is Stone only now finding out about it? And just now stopping to wonder how Andrea could afford an expensive home like that? 

A great choice of words in this post: "big chunk of the story that's too convenient in its absence."  I think that they want us to focus on the effects of "the night" on Naz, his family, Stone, Chandra and the inequities/harshness of the criminal justice system. However, it shouldn't come entirely at the expense of a logic. In an effort to demonstrate the broad reaching effects of this crime, we get two nearly identical scenes of Salim and his co-cab owners discussing the possibility of grand theft charge. But nothing ever comes of it.

If Naz didn't do it - and I don't think that he did - then there will be an unusual number of coincidences that allowed the killer to show up at exactly the right moment, enter the brownstone, commit the crime and leave undetected. Frankly, I think that they may have dropped the ball on this aspect of the story. Alternatively, they have delivered on tension, dread and, of course, eczema.

[Haiti D]

I love this show.

To those saying it could've been the Hearse Driver to Chandra's door: I doubt the card she gave him would have had her home address.

The show is great but this episode was flawed in that the financial motive for the death should have become apparent a lot earlier in the series.  

Watching Nas descent has been gripping, and every time it seems he is in control (initially refusing Freddy's request), he seems to do something that pulls him further down (becoming a mule).  I think that entire scene with Stone and Chandra questioning him about the Adderall while he swallowed the drugs was fantastic.  Chandra and Stone were dumb-founded by what he was doing but couldn't say anything for fear of bringing attention to him.  

I also have a suspicion that Box won't play along with Helen's elaborate conspiracy theory.

I'm also surprised no one has mentioned the dead man's dong on the autopsy table.  That was wholly unnecessary and gratuitous.  

EDITED TO ADD: Sorry those last comments were in reference to the previous episode, I just mini-binged two episodes and got them jumbled into one.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Haiti D
correction

[scrb]

I wonder if Price and Zaillian are too clever -- and too much in love with critical acclaim -- to have a conventional happy ending.

That is why you get the sense that the show won't just end with Naz being proven innocent.  There will be some bittersweet ending like him changing for the worse in prison or something like that.

[humbleopinion]

In response to the gratuitous close up shot of the deceased's penis:

It's not TV, It's HBO.

[djsunyc]

i wasn't a fan of the episode that much either.  they threw alot of stuff at us...stuff that should've been talked about way before it even reached trial.  not to mention the absolute lack of interaction between stone and nas to get him ready for the trial.  kind of took me out of it.

when stone brought his forensic expert, they made a point to show him take a picture from the stairs and you could tell the kitchen wasn't that visible from there.  so i think that will come back at some point.

but we saw so much of the broken door, if the killer got in that way, wouldn't he be coming up from the basement on the other side of the staircase which would be next to the kitchen therefore the killer would actually see nas there asleep?

 

i thought nas called chandra and not his parents b/c he got horny.  he was on drugs and saw a sex act being performed so he called a young attractive woman.  i thought he was going to start yanking while talking to her but he couldn't since he was so drugged out.

[kieyra]

Lots of good posts so far, and you've all beaten me to the big WTF moments. (Stone just now realizes there might be a financial motive? Really?)

I understood by episodes 2/3 that they weren't going run the show like a normal procedural or murder mystery, so I buckled in for a different take on the story. But pretending the procedural template doesn't exist and that people can completely forget about it doesn't work either.

I mean, forget television procedurals, I'm pretty sure from the posts that a lot of us know how trials work in the real world. (I just got done following a three month murder trial--Google Dellen Millard, pretty crazy stuff.)  All these missed/overlooked/erroneous investigative beats just drop you right out of the story. 

Did anyone ever question why he wasn't covered in blood, or check the bathroom?

The show feels like it can't decide what it wants to be. I guess part of the problem is that since it was intended as a Gandolfini vehicle, we're getting two separate shows: the Stone show and the Nas/Freddy show. Turturro has a lot of charisma, but the eczema adventures aren't worthy of carrying a whole show. 

[beaker73]

I don't think Naz's father just happened to be her delivery guy. I think he brought her food on his own. It's the night before the start of the trial, he knows she's likely home working and they like her. That's why she answered the door with no money and why he left her the food without taking any.  

I'm with everyone else regarding the deer head. It's been far too prominent not to mean anything. Maybe Andrea didn't trust dear, old stepdad and had a nanny cam in there. 

[BusyOctober]

Cannot stand the prosecutor's voice!  When Helen first showed up, I thought the actor was Mercedes Rhuel, (and that she didn't age well).  But then I realized it was a different actor.  After hearing that voice I was wondering if either the actress or the character was recovering from a speech debilitating stroke. Aside from the very thick NY accent and the nasal tone, she barely moves her lips when she speaks.

I wish we could get a feeling on how much time has past.  The trial seems to have come up pretty quickly when lined up with how long Stone has had the cat.  Trials take months so has Stone kept that cat in solitary that long? On the flip side, if Stone rescued the cat 10-14 days after the murder, ( cat found 1-3 days after murder + shelter said 10 days to get it adopted), and he gets food and toys and develops a pet owner routine in say 2-3 more weeks; the trial is under way within 5-6 weeks?  Not to mention how quickly Naz has gone from wide eyed innocent to become the valedictorian in Freddy's Thug Life University.

At this point i just want Naz's parents & brother to be OK. Dad gets his cab back, mom gets her job back and little bro gets his laptop back.

[Dogberry]

47 minutes ago, beaker73 said:

I don't think Naz's father just happened to be her delivery guy. I think he brought her food on his own. It's the night before the start of the trial, he knows she's likely home working and they like her. That's why she answered the door with no money and why he left her the food without taking any.  

I'm with everyone else regarding the deer head. It's been far too prominent not to mean anything. Maybe Andrea didn't trust dear, old stepdad and had a nanny cam in there. 

If Naz's father intended to bring her food on his own, he wouldn't have asked for payment after she opened the door. He would have just given it to her and said, "Here... a little token of gratitude for defending my son."

 

As for Chandra answering the door with no money... no one's volunteered a theory yet, so I'll throw one out there.  She whips the door open without looking through the peephole, and her expression (before she recognizes Naz's father) is clearly happy.  Given that the last conversation she'd had in the episode was a phone conversation with Stone, I think she was expecting Stone to be at the door.  He'd said no when she asked if he would get together to help plan the opening argument, and they were bonding for the first time earlier that day, so maybe she thought he was surprising her by giving in to her request and dropping in for a visit.  That might also explain her rather cold rebuff when, the next morning, he wanted to show off his new shoes and she said, essentially, "Leave me alone... I'm writing this argument."

 

She might also have been expecting her ex-boyfriend to be at the door, in the hope that they might get back together again.

[kieyra]

I think the simple answer is that we were supposed to note that she was trying to give him $40 for an $18 check (she grabs two $20s) and they wanted us to see that. But they also needed time for him to get away from her front door before she could offer him what I think already he suspected was going to be charity. The only way he has time to duck out is if they write her going back inside for the money. 

[ganesh]

5 hours ago, The Hound Lives said:

That deer head...dammit. I am with you that there will be some tie-in with it. 

I think it's got a camera in it. I thought that last night with E5.

3 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

There have been so many quick shots, blended with long scenes that don't seem to mean much until later on.  I think when it's over, we'll be satisfied that we've seen something different, but worth our time. 

I'm ok with weird shows. I liked True Detective S2. It got a bad rap. I have faith in HBO. It just annoys me that only now Box is looking at Naz's facebook page, or that no one is raising questions about his appearance when he was arrested. Or now they're just asking how she was living in a house that was so expensive. That was brought up here during the first episode. People not doing sensible, obvious things that we would do normally bothers me. Naz got a little too prison too quick for me too.

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

The thing that ticked me off about Box, was that when he talked to Naz's teacher, the TEACHER didn't even mention that what Naz did happened after 9/11, which to me was like, duh, the other boy probably said some racist shit and got thrown down the stairs for it.  It wasn't right, but the coach didn't even mention 9/11 and neither did Box which I thought was stupid and shows that Box probably should retire.

I suppose I'm expecting Box to be doing his job because no one could work murders for 30+ years and be this stupid. I can buy that's he's mentally checked out and just wants and easy win and that's it. I'm guess on tv I'm used to good po-lice like Bunk who will go out drinking till 2 am and work the scene the next morning to figure out where and how someone was shot in their kitchen.

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

However, it shouldn't come entirely at the expense of a logic.

Or people behaving stupid because plot.

1 hour ago, scrb said:

That is why you get the sense that the show won't just end with Naz being proven innocent.  There will be some bittersweet ending like him changing for the worse in prison or something like that.

I don't actually mind that as long as the show is one complete story. It seems like, if this is the case, this could have been achieved in a 4 to 6 episode show. 

Quote

The show feels like it can't decide what it wants to be.

I've been a few weeks behind, but I said as much as well. 

[AuntiePam]

Maybe the investigation was sloppy because they're so sure they have the killer.  Plus, we've seen that the experts are willing to say whatever the DA wants them to say, and however they want it to be said -- like the coroner last week, delivering his opinion in just the right tone to suit the DA. 

The defense doesn't have any money for their own experts, except for that one guy who found a drop of blood on some leaves.  So maybe that's also why the trial is happening so quickly -- nobody's spending any time with pretrial motions, change of venue, etc. -- both sides are doing a quick and dirty job.  And since there's unrest among the public, they want to get it over with asap.

[Brooklynista]

Are we still waiting for Naz to pass that fourth?? balloon?

[LittleIggy]

On 8/14/2016 at 11:05 PM, saoirse said:

Oh, forgot to say - cleaning the cat litter box on the kitchen counter???? Admittedly, I'm not the greatest of housekeepers, but that really had me yelling at the tv.

Yuck! I was also saying "Get clumping litter!" at the TV. Loved Stone playing with the kitty under the door. Hope he finds out that he isn't allergic to cats.

I didn't realize that was Naz's dad delivering the groceries either. I was just relieved it wasn't the Undertaker! That guy was f*cking creepy. What a misogynist.

Getting "sin" tattooed on your knuckles? Not a smart move right before your trial, Naz! 

And why no sailors?

 

21 hours ago, patty1h said:

Anyone else find it odd that Freddy's crew member was so deadly intent on Naz not saying anything about his gay tryst?  

Because the kid on his knees is under Freddie's protection. Remember his mom smuggled in the drugs as payment.

[Refresh]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

Getting "sin" tattooed on your knuckles? Not a smart move right before your trial, Naz! 

I read on another site (and I somehow missed this even with HD) that Naz got "Sin" "Bad" tattooed on his fingers. Sinbad as reference from the earlier Freddy conversation "Are you Sinbad or Alladin?". But also two words that, you know, innocent and good people often think to tattoo on their fingers.  I'm not anti-tattoo, I sort of like the coyote thing on his arm but dude, finger tattoos? *head on desk*

[Magic]

Quote

I thought they isolated suspects in high-profile cases.

I did too, and considering I haven't seen any high profile cases come to trail in a few months, they are lucky if they come to trial under a year, I'm beginning to think their point is that Naz and his entire family are ruined by his being accused of murder.  His mom is forced to be a janitor, his dad is delivering food plus his partners will likely do something about the cab, and his brother is committing vandalism.  Naz has his prison tattoos, and like someone mentioned perhaps the gifts that keep on giving like hepatitis and/or HIV from prison needles, his starting to do harder drugs, he's been a mule, he's been burned, he's been cut a few times, and probably some sex scenario is going to be thrown in by the end.

If you can end up in a place like Rikers BEFORE you are even proved guilty, I don't see where the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty comes in.  You should either be isolated or in a different type of prison.  You may as well be guilty if this is what is going to happen over the entire time it takes to get to trail and make it through the trial.  More than anything, like what the cops etc. have overlooked, the fact an innocent person could have to live in this system is - words fail me.

Not that I am certain that Naz is innocent.  It seems like Naz, Duane, the step dad, and the hearse driver all have been highlighted in one way or another as a possible murderer given what was revealed about them. 

I still feel that only a drugged or psycho person (Naz), a very angry person (the step father?? but then I would guess he was abusing Andrea or something, because if it was just the money I don't see all the stabbing), or I am adding a religious fanatic (like the hearse driver although he could also fall into the psycho camp), would stab someone as many times as Andrea was stabbed.  I don't see Duane in a burglary scenario stabbing her so many times, although he has been made to look a possible suspect.  I guess the financial advisor guy could be another suspect.

And likely there are many cases where someone like the stepdad, who has a total motive if he was going to get at least half the estate if not all the estate if Andrea wasn't around to contest him, still might have had nothing to do with the murder, it was someone else, but he ends up totally benefiting from it.

I did think it was interesting that the stepdad seemed to be "working" at the gym even though the financial guy said he never worked a day in his life after he married Andrea's mother.

Overall the series is somewhat going downhill for me.  Chandra seems too naive all around than I think someone working at Allison's firm would be,  including in her personal life not looking through the peephole, and plus wouldn't Allison care more about how Chandra was doing on this case considering her name is somewhat tied to it?

There are just so many details starting to pile up that don't seem plausible.

And I am still kind of left with the growing feeling that who gives a damn if you are proven innocent, assuming Naz ends up being proven innocent, if the person you used to be, and your family, are ruined at end anyway.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

So....are we just to assume that Stone gave up while chasing Duane Reed at the end of the last episode and went home?

Are we sure that what was going on with Petey and the guy who put the knife up to Nas's throat (I forget his name) wasn't consensual on Petey's part? Like maybe Petey and the guy have a thing going on? I'm not sure if Petey's being forced to do that or what. 

I felt grossed out when Nas called Chandra after that. I felt like he was hitting on her and making her uncomfortable on purpose. For some reason it skeeved me out.

Was it coke/crack Freddie & co were smoking or heroin? I keep seeing people reference coke/crack but I think it was heroin. They all looked way more glazed over/zonked out than I'd think a cocaine high would give you. I wish Nas wouldn't have smoked it, whatever it was. Same for the tats. 

[meisje]

Quote

So....are we just to assume that Stone gave up while chasing Duane Reed at the end of the last episode and went home?

Yeah, I was definitely surprised that this episode didn't open on that (apparent) cliffhanger from last week. It was especially humorous given that Stone was basically risking his life to track the guy down, find him at work, break up his game and basically to call him out as a witness in front of his friends, and then to chase him through unfamiliar territory like a dope... only to give up once he made it into the tunnel and then go home? The investigating skills of the police and lawyers here are a little like a game of musical chairs, where they just drop whatever they were doing and go into some kind of fugue state and never pick the threads up again.

Quote

Was it coke/crack Freddie & co were smoking or heroin? I keep seeing people reference coke/crack but I think it was heroin. They all looked way more glazed over/zonked out than I'd think a cocaine high would give you. I wish Nas wouldn't have smoked it, whatever it was.

I watched Intervention at some point after this episode and wondered if we were supposed to think they were smoking meth, because apparently all drugs look the same now...? The meaningfulness of watching Naz choose the drugs by the end was sort of blunted by the fact that it seemed like if 3 or 4 guys in a tiny, mostly-airtight prison cell were all smoking it - and how much of the smoke just went into the room versus what little went into the straw/pipe? thing (unless I'm missing something) - it would be one hell of a contact high no matter what, hour after hour and day after day. 

[Brooklynista]

I dunno. Freddie getting high just doesn't ring true for me. Can he really run the kind of operation he has going on inside and outside while high? It's the first rule of the Crack Commandments. Never get high on your own supply.  Would the guards and inmates respect/fear a guy who's in the middle of a nod?

[Milburn Stone]

8 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

Maybe the investigation was sloppy because they're so sure they have the killer.  Plus, we've seen that the experts are willing to say whatever the DA wants them to say, and however they want it to be said -- like the coroner last week, delivering his opinion in just the right tone to suit the DA. 

The defense doesn't have any money for their own experts, except for that one guy who found a drop of blood on some leaves.  So maybe that's also why the trial is happening so quickly -- nobody's spending any time with pretrial motions, change of venue, etc. -- both sides are doing a quick and dirty job.  And since there's unrest among the public, they want to get it over with asap.

Exactly. This is why I don't have a problem with the logic of the show. The point of the show seems to be to demonstrate that the criminal justice system isn't about discovering the truth, it's about discovering a plausible story a jury will believe so that cases can be disposed of and the general public will feel safer now that the "killer" has been convicted and the D.A.'s office and police department can declare a win. I keep feeling we may see an attack of conscience from Box but barring that, the story seems on track for the government to achieve all its goals.

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, kieyra said:

I think the simple answer is that we were supposed to note that she was trying to give him $40 for an $18 check (she grabs two $20s) and they wanted us to see that. But they also needed time for him to get away from her front door before she could offer him what I think already he suspected was going to be charity. The only way he has time to duck out is if they write her going back inside for the money. 

That scene was just poorly staged. The contrivance is too much to begin with-it doesn't make much sense that Chandra, a lawyer at a fancy Manhattan firm, would live in Jackson Heights, nor that Naz's father would be delivering food for a restaurant in a neighborhood far from home. Put that on top of the astronomically low odds of him being her delivery guy even if the neighborhoods matched up, given just how many restaurants and residents there are in this city-I rolled my eyes. Then the way it played out was so confusing that a lot of people didn't even realize who he was or what Chandra was doing. This show doesn't do well with the details.

[benteen]

I didn't realize that was Naz's father either.

Quote

I'm ok with weird shows. I liked True Detective S2. It got a bad rap. I have faith in HBO. It just annoys me that only now Box is looking at Naz's facebook page, or that no one is raising questions about his appearance when he was arrested. Or now they're just asking how she was living in a house that was so expensive. That was brought up here during the first episode. People not doing sensible, obvious things that we would do normally bothers me. Naz got a little too prison too quick for me too.

Yeah, this bugged me too.  They're only NOW looking at Naz's FB page?  Wasn't it only last episode that they started looking at video footage of Naz driving the car?  Questions about the house are only being raised now?

[Drogo]

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

And why no sailors?

If he meant "sailors" as in former members of the U.S. Navy, it's because he'd already said military and law enforcement vets and families were out.  If he meant "sailors" as in people who own sailboats and go sailing for fun, it's because they fall in with the other "white hobbies" he'd mentioned like bowling and golf. 

Truly, Stone and Chandra's dream jurors would be the hearse driver or anyone kooky enough to hang out with him.  They'd see Andrea for the destroyer she was. 

9 hours ago, kieyra said:

I think the simple answer is that we were supposed to note that she was trying to give him $40 for an $18 check (she grabs two $20s) and they wanted us to see that. But they also needed time for him to get away from her front door before she could offer him what I think already he suspected was going to be charity. The only way he has time to duck out is if they write her going back inside for the money. 

I thought this too, but she took out two twenties from her wallet when she went inside, so either she (a) didn't have any money on her when she opened the door or (b) she had the $20-25 in her hand and went back to get an additional $40 when she saw it was him.  Or we may be overestimating her philanthropy and she only had twenties from an ATM and was going to ask for change.  I have to agree with @stagmania that the scene was poorly staged. 

[Happytobehere]

On August 14, 2016 at 11:50 PM, The Hound Lives said:

I don't think that means anything other than he is a teenager who has, in his teen brain, has better things to do that hang with Dad. I think it was a great parallel with Naz calling Chandra, instead of calling home. 

I thought it was in response to Stone embarrassing his son at school.

i too missed that Nazir's father was the delivery-man, I thought it was just a random scene to break the tension. I will recheck on demand.  

I'm still hoping that the black guys are red herrings and not actually guilty, such typical race-baiting would ruin the show.

 

On August 15, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Superpole2000 said:

That's two retcons on Naz's background. Three would start feeling really cheap to me.

How is anything we find out about Naz a retcon?  A retconn changes established character facts. We know nothing about Naz prior to that night. The only possible retcons would be of things we know to be established from the moment the show started.  

Chandra showed herself to be less than capable as an attorney when she stupidly asked the cop if Naz's question seemed like something the murderer would say.  She opened the door for the story about the rapist, which removed a potential area of doubt from the minds of the jury.  Legal 101 says you never ask a question you don't know the answer to, so that mistake was beyond the pale.  

I did the rewatch.  It was indeed Naz's dad making the delivery. I don't think Chandra's face reflected anything per se.  Before answering the door, she was clearly deeply in thought in regards to what she was writing -- her presentation to the jury?  I think she simply answered the door, saw Naz's dad, started to smile and realized the implication of what she was seeing.  To me the biggest WTF was not her face, but her not questioning who was at the door.  The same thing could have been accomplished with this sensible act. Chandra wouldn't recognize the voice, she could have said something like, "Damn, I forgot," or , "That was quick,"  (thus explaining why she had no money if she was expecting a delivery), opened the door and had the same interaction we witnessed, but sans the confusion.

As for Naz's attire and why Freddy failed to have him dress properly. Right after the scene with Chandra and Nazir's dad, we see that Feddy does in fact give Naz a new white shirt and tie. Naz returns them to Freddy because his mother is bringing him clothes.  Freddy tells Naz that his mother won't bring the right clothes, but Naz insists on going with what his mother will bring him.  Freddy them tells Naz that, "It's your funeral." So Freddy was on point and Naz was the screw-up in this matter.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Happytobehere
Rewatched scenes.

[teddysmom]

Quote

The show is great but this episode was flawed in that the financial motive for the death should have become apparent a lot earlier in the series.  

Agree in hindsight the cops/DA should have looked into the stepfather, but they had a guy who was there, partied and had sex with the vic, cuts on his hand, to them he's their guy.  

NYPD isn't Columbo, they get a suspect, the ADA says she can build the case on him on the evidence, they aren't going to snoop around looking for someone else. 

When they brought up the fight in high school, any one with half a brain could have figured out it was from bullying.  Of course Naz has some buried rage, what Muslim teenager or adult,  living in NYC after 9/11 wouldn't?  Their lives had to be hell.  

What galls me is how she went to the coroner and coached him on the cut. That knife on the table couldn't have been the murder weapon could it?  Did anyone check the wounds to that knife? 

The end of this episode was so claustrophobic, Naz in there smoking crack and getting tattoos, I felt like the walls were closing in.

Then when he called Chandra it just broke my heart. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by teddysmom

[kieyra]

9 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Agree in hindsight the cops/DA should have looked into the stepfather, but they had a guy who was there, partied and had sex with the vic, cuts on his hand, to them he's their guy.  

NYPD isn't Columbo, they get a suspect, the ADA says she can build the case on him on the evidence, they aren't going to snoop around looking for someone else. 

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I talk about other suspects/motives being overlooked, I'm referring to the defense only. If nothing else, I understand that the gov't side probably doesn't have the resources to chase other leads, because bureaucracy. 

[clb1016]

6 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I talk about other suspects/motives being overlooked, I'm referring to the defense only. If nothing else, I understand that the gov't side probably doesn't have the resources to chase other leads, because bureaucracy. 

Exactly.  If you have no exculpatory evidence, at least present an alternative theory of the crime.

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, clb1016 said:

If you have no exculpatory evidence, at least present an alternative theory of the crime.

 

12 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I talk about other suspects/motives being overlooked, I'm referring to the defense only.

Right from his first meeting with Naz, Stone made it clear that this is not about The Truth, it's about presenting an appealing and believable story to the jury:  "They come up with their story. We come up with ours. The jury gets to decide which they like best. Now, the good news is we get to hear what their story is first before we have to tell them ours, so we keep our mouth shut until we know what they're doing."

As far as not providing an alternative theory of the crime or overlooking other suspects, I don't see that.  Stone has been working on possible "stories" since the beginning.  From people-watching at Andrea's funeral to visiting the rehab center from her selfie, checking out Trevor and Duane's background, talking to her drug dealer and the family's financial advisor to spying on the stepfather-- he's been gathering as much information as he can so that when the time comes and the prosecution rests, the defense can pick which story they think "the jury will like best" to cast reasonable doubt.  Stone doesn't need to care about finding Andrea's killer, he only needs to care that Naz isn't sent to prison for the murder. 

[Neurochick]

8 hours ago, Magic said:

I did too, and considering I haven't seen any high profile cases come to trail in a few months, they are lucky if they come to trial under a year, I'm beginning to think their point is that Naz and his entire family are ruined by his being accused of murder.  His mom is forced to be a janitor, his dad is delivering food plus his partners will likely do something about the cab, and his brother is committing vandalism.  Naz has his prison tattoos, and like someone mentioned perhaps the gifts that keep on giving like hepatitis and/or HIV from prison needles, his starting to do harder drugs, he's been a mule, he's been burned, he's been cut a few times, and probably some sex scenario is going to be thrown in by the end.

If you can end up in a place like Rikers BEFORE you are even proved guilty, I don't see where the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty comes in.  You should either be isolated or in a different type of prison.  You may as well be guilty if this is what is going to happen over the entire time it takes to get to trail and make it through the trial.  More than anything, like what the cops etc. have overlooked, the fact an innocent person could have to live in this system is - words fail me.

Yes, this is exactly how I see the show too.  Naz hasn't been proven guilty; yet he's become a full inmate, his family is ruined and, yes I'll say it again, he has NOT been proven guilty yet.  It kind of makes a mockery of the justice system that says "innocent until proven guilty."

 

Quote

Exactly. This is why I don't have a problem with the logic of the show. The point of the show seems to be to demonstrate that the criminal justice system isn't about discovering the truth, it's about discovering a plausible story a jury will believe so that cases can be disposed of and the general public will feel safer now that the "killer" has been convicted and the D.A.'s office and police department can declare a win. I keep feeling we may see an attack of conscience from Box but barring that, the story seems on track for the government to achieve all its goals.

Very, very true.  The case of the Central Park Five really illustrated that.  The police went after five children (and they were children, all under 18)  for no other reason than they were in the park that night.  The only reason the police were so overzealous, in their rush to judgement was because of who the victim was, and because people, like the Republican nominee for president were calling for the death penalty (I'm serious, he took out a full page ad) for whomever violated her.  I doubt anybody would have given five shits if the victim were a single mother from the Bronx.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Neurochick

[A Boston Gal]

23 hours ago, MaggieG said:

That could be possible. Since Naz was in the kitchen, the Step Dad ( who will always be Mickey from Boardwalk Empire to me) could have walked through the front door and not seen him, gone upstairs, killed Andrea and then left without even knowing Naz was in the house.

What, what, what?? Mickey with the stupid bowler hat and stupider laugh who wouldn't die no matter how much we all prayed for it? THAT Boardwalk Empire Mickey?

Serves me right for watching most of this series on an iPhone. <sigh>

[teddysmom]

3 minutes ago, A Boston Gal said:

Mickey with the stupid bowler hat and stupider laugh who wouldn't die no matter how much we all prayed for it? THAT Boardwalk Empire Mickey?

AND the author writing a book on the Underwoods and sleeping with Claire on House of Cards. 

Yep, that guy.  He's everywhere!!! 

[A Boston Gal]

2 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

AND the author writing a book on the Underwoods and sleeping with Claire on House of Cards. 

Yep, that guy.  He's everywhere!!! 

You think he knows Naz is under Chalky White's protection?

[PetuniaP]

Quote

And has no money if she is indeed expecting a food delivery. Not like any New Yorker I know.

Why would she have money if she ordered Seamless? If I'm expecting a delivery, I also open the door without looking and with no money in hand. As a native New Yorker, that was fairly accurate. The chances that Naz's dad would be the delivery person when he lives in Queens is far less likely. I think I missed that scene so I need to go back and watch it more carefully. 

On 8/15/2016 at 0:09 PM, Neurochick said:

I laughed when Stone said the best jurors were young, urban women because they don't care about anybody's opinion but their own. 

I laughed as well. Was this a proxy for young black women or just millennials in general? I thought the statement was applicable to both.

I remember when listening to Serial, Sarah talking about how most police investigations go exactly the way that Naz's is going. Police just don't have time to chase all leads. They tend to go by confirmation bias....once they think they have their man, all of their investigation centers around proving their case. They are not trying to find reasons why he might NOT be guilty. So I think this show is doing a fantastic job of showing how things really go down. 

Quote

If you can end up in a place like Rikers BEFORE you are even proved guilty, I don't see where the benefit of being innocent until proven guilty comes in.  You should either be isolated or in a different type of prison.

THIS. I remember reading a story about Rikers and what a hellhole it is and how long people have to stay there under horrific conditions. Which is a nightmare since technically, Rikers is a jail, not a prison. You might be completely innocent of any crimes but end up spending a year and a half to two years of your life in that place. I think Naz's descent is happening rather quickly, guess it has to be sped up for TV purposes, but is probably also incredibly reflective of what happens in real life. 

Edited August 16, 2016 by PetuniaP

[meep.meep]

38 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

AND the author writing a book on the Underwoods and sleeping with Claire on House of Cards. 

Yep, that guy.  He's everywhere!!! 

AND the hot shot attorney who slept with the crazy intern on The Girlfriend Experience.

He is everywhere!

I find Naz's descent into criminal life very depressing.

[Dogberry]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

What galls me is how she went to the coroner and coached him on the cut. 

Yes, I wondered about that too.  The hierarchical relationship between her and the coroner isn't clear, but it seemed improbable at best, and unethical at worst, for her to practically bully him with a glare until he voiced her theory with a tone that satisfied her.  He seemed too willing to go along with it.  Dunno what his motivation there was.

[Neurochick]

40 minutes ago, PetuniaP said:

I laughed as well. Was this a proxy for young black women or just millennials in general? I thought the statement was applicable to both.

I remember when listening to Serial, Sarah talking about how most police investigations go exactly the way that Naz's is going. Police just don't have time to chase all leads. They tend to go by confirmation bias....once they think they have their man, all of their investigation centers around proving their case. They are not trying to find reasons why he might NOT be guilty. So I think this show is doing a fantastic job of showing how things really go down. 

Stone wasn't talking about just millennials or about black women, he was speaking generally.  Even when I was in my 20's that was true of young urban women, white and black.

[ganesh]

10 hours ago, Magic said:

And I am still kind of left with the growing feeling that who gives a damn if you are proven innocent, assuming Naz ends up being proven innocent, if the person you used to be, and your family, are ruined at end anyway.

I don't mind if the show ends like that. But then don't bother showing much of the DA/defense work and focus more on the family. They're trying to kind of have it both ways. 

The investigation being sloppy because they're convinced they got the right guy due to the ton of evidence is a false equivalency. The investigation isn't sloppy. They're doing it now: checking his FB page, rewatching the interviews, etc. I don't think anyone disputes that the evidence is overwhelming. If they're going after Naz because of the evidence then ok, but they (or Box talking to the DA) should have indicated to the viewers that he knows there's a few things that don't add up but they're going with it anyway. That's tragic and makes sense in the context of what it seems like the show is going for. As it stands from what I'm watching, they're just not smart detectives and "oh this is going trial? We should check out some stuff." 

Even if you're a lazy detective in his final month, you're called to the crime scene at three in the morning, and you're looking around the house. You don't think "huh, this is an awfully fancy house for a 25 y/o to be living in on her own?" Come on. Box missing that the guy was lying on can understand. 

The scene with the coroner and the DA talking about the knife, and him fitting his analysis to her narrative; I can buy that because at least they're showing us that there is some uncertainty there. 

The show might have been better off keeping the detective and DA more vague and detached from the viewers.

[teddysmom]

Quote

You think he knows Naz is under Chalky White's protection?

Sh** I forgot about Chalky/Freddy!  Crossover to end all crossovers!!! 

Quote

I find Naz's descent into criminal life very depressing.

Me too. That last few minutes of this episode were just awful to watch. 

We also have a double The Wire/The Night Of crossover.

Michael K Williams as Freddy/Omar and JD Williams as Bodie/Trevor. 

[Magic]

It doesn't surprise me that there are things that cannot be tied up in a case like this.  Everyone seems to have serendipitous things happen, or wrong place at wrong time, or hidden things like Naz taking Adderall, even "stealing" his dad and business partner's cab, etc.  There are things that make a person look guilty that are just due to circumstance, and perhaps things that make someone look innocent for the same reasons.  Really in some ways you could imagine that Naz "could" have done this murder.  For one thing he was there, he was drugged up, they were playing with a knife, he admits to rage and not feeling anything after pushing that kid down the stairs etc.  When you look into the details of any event or any life there are all kinds of things that come out that confuse the issue.

In terms of the filmmakers sloppiness, I'm guessing that Stone quit chasing Duane because he decided to just subpoena him, that is one of his MOs.  Still to have chase scene as a cliffhanger, and then just start the next episode as if it never happened, is questionable filming, in my mind.

Other sloppy details, why did Boz know to call the stepdad, when the financial guy said that he and Andrea were in an estate battle. There is no way the stepdad would be bailing her out if she was trying to keep him from getting any of her mom's money.

Chandra is getting some pretty sloppy treatment, she looks pretty inept in many instances, which you wouldn't expect from someone hired by Allison.  And from one I can tell of all these famewhore lawyers, are they really going to give up on being in the limelight for a high profile case like this and put an ineffective lawyer in charge, when it is their firm that is going to get the bad PR? 

Those kind of mismatched details bug me but there is enough that is interesting to make the series enjoyable and worthwhile to watch, including the cat.  I remain curious if the deer head comes into play.  And why did Andrea have a camera in there if she did (and wouldn't it have already filmed over anything it had recorded by now if it is one of those that keeps recording over as it fills up the memory).  And how is the blood on Naz get explained since does not match what the killer would have been splattered with given what the walls were splattered with.  And Naz did not take a shower if you go back and look and see some of the blood smudge marks on his back.  And why did Andrea say she could not be alone that night?  And now, with the descent of Naz, and his family, what is going to be come of him, and them.  Perhaps the worst is yet to come.  That would be depressing.