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S01.E06: Samson and Delilah


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Oh my shit, this episode was packed!
More on Naz slipping into the inmate "role" in a moment. So much jumped out. Red herrings left and right...but maybe not so red? 

Freddy's conversation with Naz, before he decided to smoke crack (WHY?!!! NAZ! NO!!!), about "What's another murder charge?" feels like the biggest anvil to the head yet. Why...why do I feel like Freddy is going to take the heat on behalf of Naz? Please tell me I am not the only one who listened to that conversation and thought that? He may be behind bars but Freddy has connections on the outside. Who is to say that he couldn't say he ordered a "hit"? 
Yeah...it could be a stretch to end all stretches but I wonder if Freddy won't be the savior. Just as Stone closes in, finds the real culprit (Stepdad?), a "confession" from behind bars is what frees Naz. Bittersweet, I guess. 
I gotta say, the eczema clearing up actually felt like a victory. For a show that has next to none, I was really excited. 

This is also the first episode that had me burst into tears. When Mr. Khan showed up as the delivery guy for Chandra's take-out. Wow. My God, I didn't expect it but I actually cried as the desperation in that moment. 

Back to Naz. I don't see him as angry. I don't see him as a bad guy. I am torn about his adopting attitudes and behaviors of an inmate but his call to Chandra felt so desperate. Scared for a moment, then the guy comes in to use his phone and the mask goes back on. He is learning, faster than I hoped but the mask is all he has right now. 

I know I will have a ton more to say. This episode was just fantastic. 


 

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This was a powerful hour of television. I enjoy the interaction between Chandra and Stone, and agree with you, Sarah, that it seems to be more paternal than flirtatious. Stone with the cat = adorable.

His father delivering food to Chandra was heartbreaking. How humiliating for the poor man.

And I just want to shake Naz as he descends into life in prison.

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4 minutes ago, saoirse said:

This was a powerful hour of television. I enjoy the interaction between Chandra and Stone, and agree with you, Sarah, that it seems to be more paternal than flirtatious. Stone with the cat = adorable.

I was hoping and praying that the writers weren't going to "go there". PHEW! When he was drinking the herbal viagra concoction while talking to her, I was so afraid he was going to go over to her place. The rapport between them does feel paternal. They are polar opposites but damn if it doesn't work. 

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 Funny as Stone sits smug in his black socks and leather shoes and the members of the eczema support group riveted on his every word.

 Chinese herbal medicine to the rescue.

What is the deal with his son not answering Stone's calls?

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I actually saw Stone's advertisement in a NYC subway car which they showed in this episode! I cringed when they showed Naz's feet in the shower, I was waiting for an assault. And he has no shoes for traction!!! I wonder if Naz is thinking if he actually committed the crime? I feel he's doubting himself during those flashbacks. Great episode! And two more left! 

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I totally missed that it was Naz's dad delivering the food.  I really appreciate this board!  

Does anybody else feel bad for that poor cat, locked up in the room with no interaction?  I know that Stone is being as affectionate as he can but I can't help but feel for the poor thing.

Naz is certainly becoming acclimated to prison life, huh?  The tattoos and crack smoking are not smart.  But I guess you do what you gotta do.

This whole show is so well acted and the pacing is perfect.  I'm going to be depressed when it's over.

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I always get my fashion advice from the crack-smoking HappyMeal-eating lifer two cells down, so I don't ever have to hear those dreaded words "You look like an extra from West Side Story."

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I missed that the delivery guy was Naz father too.  I was so scared that the creepy hearse driver was going to show up.  Plus, I didn't understand why she would go to the door without her money if she were expecting a food delivery.

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1 hour ago, humbleopinion said:

What is the deal with his son not answering Stone's calls?

I don't think that means anything other than he is a teenager who has, in his teen brain, has better things to do that hang with Dad. I think it was a great parallel with Naz calling Chandra, instead of calling home. 

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Plus, I didn't understand why she would go to the door without her money if she were expecting a food delivery.

She seemed really happy when the doorbell rang, so I figured she was thinking perhaps her boyfriend had returned? She genuinely didn't seem to want Stone to come over. It is weird that she wasn't more terrified to answer the door given that mortuary guy had her card though.

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Does anybody else feel bad for that poor cat, locked up in the room with no interaction?  I know that Stone is being as affectionate as he can but I can't help but feel for the poor thing.

Whomever is doing the writing hasn't spent much time around a cat! After the ordeal of being locked out and hungry, and then at the shelter, and then put in the room with the door closed, it would have been howling and terrified. It's hilarious to me that after he puts food in, we immediately hear eating noises; he dumps several toys in and the cat immediately goes into play mode; and then tonight he shoves the clean litter in and we immediately hear the scratching of litter. So, I feel badly for kitty, but that kitty is a robot! 

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Oh, forgot to say - cleaning the cat litter box on the kitchen counter????

No one, not even hoarders! It was grotesque watching the used litter spill all over the counter among dishes! And why would a person with such allergies drag it into a main living area and put it up where their hands are used to get drink and food? Yech. 

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 Chinese herbal medicine to the rescue.

TCM to the rescue; as soon as I saw the herbs being mixed, I knew things were looking up. Not sure if they'd work at all with room temp or cold tap water though just stirred in though... guess tonight had as many odd errors as it did action for me. How did his new tattoo go unnoticed by counsel? I thought for sure we'd get a reaction shot. Naz is just a factory of bad ideas right now - and who gets a SIN tattoo across their fingers at the start of their trial when they're hoping to be acquitted?

Nice to see Evan R. Lawson as playing something other than a lovable, neutered terrier.

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Seems like too early to point to a more likely victim.

Will they have the final twist in the next episode or the final one?

Or he's exonerated but he gets messed up in prison before he's freed.

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7 hours ago, scrb said:

Seems like too early to point to a more likely victim.

Will they have the final twist in the next episode or the final one?

Or he's exonerated but he gets messed up in prison before he's freed.

 

Spoiler

From what I have read, episode 8 has a "twist". Maybe not the typical reveal but I am sort of expecting something that will kind of have us going "WHATTHEHELL?!" I am still leaning towards my speculation up thread, Freddy taking the fall, because it would kind of blow shit up for Stone at the 11th hour. Not that I would like it but I am expecting to not love the end result, even if it makes sense. 
I can't help but think that your last statement could play into it, too. Even if he walks, he is changed in a way and is down a path he might not be able to return from. Or Freddy's crew on the outside might not let him return from. 

 

7 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Perhaps  Naz's call to Chandra was his way of catching himself before he totally falls into the rabbit hole of full inmate institutionalization.

Yes! Yes! He is walking that thin line and he knows it. 

Edited by saoirse
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That's two retcons on Naz's background. Three would start feeling really cheap to me.

At this point, I would love to see a conversation between Naz's lawyers about various scenarios they think could have happened, or at least some trial strategy sessions. Right now, their defence seems to be, "The prosecution has to prove Naz is guilty," which, from what we've seen, will not be difficult to do. Do they have some evidence to counter what looks like a stacked deck against Naz? Can we see some of that too? I really hope they aren't just sitting there, waiting for the writers to bail them out with a twist.

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3 hours ago, DrivingSideways said:

Does anybody else feel bad for that poor cat, locked up in the room with no interaction?  I know that Stone is being as affectionate as he can but I can't help but feel for the poor thing.

You're not alone.

Strong episode. That mortuary dude made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I understand how prosecutors work but it's painful to watch her painting Naz as a killer without fully investigating the circumstances. And Naz laughing in his cell was odd. What was that about?

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I thought they isolated suspects in high-profile cases.

If Naz got killed in prison while waiting trial, even the DA and the cops would probably not be pleased, because it would deny them a big victory.

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9 hours ago, DrivingSideways said:

Does anybody else feel bad for that poor cat, locked up in the room with no interaction?  I know that Stone is being as affectionate as he can but I can't help but feel for the poor thing.

Yes...poor kitty needs a hug.

5 hours ago, numbnut said:

I understand how prosecutors work but it's painful to watch her painting Naz as a killer without fully investigating the circumstances.

Agree. We know that there is a mountain of evidence that points to Naz as the killer. However, the prosecutor is so sure that she is right that she isn't looking beyond the obvious, even as a way to support her own case. At the very least, she would have spoken with Stepdad. Separately, she also would have learned that the brownstone may have been part of an estate administration dispute. Frankly, a skilled prosecutor could still paint Naz as the killer even with more complete investigation of the circumstances.

I completely understand that the prosecutor's behavior is not be so unusual in the "real world." We are, however, watching a TV show. Clues are being dropped and suspicions exist and its frustrating to see that some of it is being ignored. This would be a high profile case in NYC and a lot of eyes/ears would be focused on it.

Edited by Ellaria Sand
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It takes a photograph of the victim’s brownstone for Stone to question how she could afford it even though he had already visited the house TWICE.

Freddy has already demonstrated knowledge of proper court appearance for a defendant (e.g., blue instead of orange jumpsuit) but he doesn’t advise Naz that it might not be a great idea to have the word “sin” tattooed across his fingers.

On the same note, Naz’s parents (clueless yet again) don’t ask his lawyers how he should dress for court—wear a suit perhaps?— to make a good impression on the jury.  Do they have more important things on their plate than communicating with the lawyer who’s trying to keep their son from life imprisonment?

Richard Price must have watched a Law & Order marathon before he wrote this.  Relatively little time seems to have passed (a couple of months) between the crime and the trial when IRL it probably wouldn’t get on the docket for at least a year; one of the reasons so many defendants are encouraged to take a plea is because of the very crowded court calendar.

Which of course means that really important (possibly exculpatory) evidence isn’t discovered until the trial has already begun (see point 1 above).

This show has become so disappointing, given its provenance.  The only thing keeping me here at this point is the terrific cast and the fact that we’re 3/4 done.

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On 8/15/2016 at 8:30 AM, saoirse said:

Please remember to stick to episode discussion, and spoiler tag anything from previews or future episode descriptions. Thank you!

Sorry! I am guilty. Will remember to cover the goodies. 

 

On 8/15/2016 at 8:10 AM, clb1016 said:

It takes a photograph of the victim’s brownstone for Stone to question how she could afford it even though he had already visited the house TWICE.

Freddy has already demonstrated knowledge of proper court appearance for a defendant (e.g., blue instead of orange jumpsuit) but he doesn’t advise Naz that it might not be a great idea to have the word “sin” tattooed across his fingers.

On the same note, Naz’s parents (clueless yet again) don’t ask his lawyers how he should dress for court—wear a suit perhaps?— to make a good impression on the jury.  Do they have more important things on their plate than communicating with the lawyer who’s trying to keep their son from life imprisonment?

For the Freddy comment, the whole party in his cell was high as kites so I don't think at that moment he gave a shit. But agree about his parents and the shirt Mom brought. Possibly they were told simply he needs a dress shirt and tie, no specifics about color or style. 

I do wish that they gave us more of an idea of a timeline. I assume that Naz has been in prison a couple of months, maybe longer, but I wish we had a comment from someone "He has/I've been in Riker's for 3 months...". Timelines bug me on a lot of shows (Game Of Thrones is a big pot of confusion when it comes to time elapse) but I can usually go with it if the story holds. 

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Sex and money...the two issues that spin many of the Law and Order episodes. I have been waiting for Stone to focus on the money...stepdad affects to have no interest, yet dead stepdaughter lives alone, without a job, in a townhouse worth multi-millions. Really? And it takes him until now to wonder about how much money is involved, and who inherits? He knows Andrea's mom is dead. I would have figures a NY defense lawyer would have been on that in a heartbeat.

The mortuary guy was freaking terrifying...but probably just a red herring. And yes, Chandra gave him her card...and she opens the door without checking thru the peep-hole to see who is actually there. And has no money if she is indeed expecting a food delivery. Not like any New Yorker I know.

Stone last week gave his judgement on Naz...'we don't know him". So, this ep gave us more info...a kid bullied after 9/11, with plenty of internal rage, and a history of violence...throwing a kid down a staircase. Though it looks like the prosecutors aren't on to that yet. Still, he looks every day more the thug.

Freddy may spring him...but he will owe Freddy big time.

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I feel so bad for Naz's parents. His dad at the door with the food broke my heart. Also, was that his brother using the spray-paint in the school? It was a very fast scene.

The scene at the eczema meeting cracked me up! 

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As I've stated previously, I've been an eczema sufferer for most of my life (still are). Just wondering if a trip to Chinatown is in the offing. Anyone with real life knowledge, jump in here.

Edited by preeya
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12 hours ago, The Hound Lives said:

This is also the first episode that had me burst into tears. When Mr. Khan showed up as the delivery guy for Chandra's take-out. Wow. My God, I didn't expect it but I actually cried as the desperation in that moment. 

Oh shit, I didn't even realize that!  I was wondering why he left without taking the money.  My heart also sank for Naz's mother cleaning floors. 

The police seemed both overworked and ineffective, the motive 95% of the time is always $$$.  I'm surprised Box, for all his smarts didn't wonder who stood to gain from Andrea's death?  And why didn't that lawyer say anything?  The Step Dad wasn't his client. 

The only thing I didn't like was the mortician, it seemed too silly.  Of course a guy driving a hearse has to be creepy.

I bet the cat knows who the killer is. 

The DA is so fucking off putting, she's fucking annoying me. 

Edited by Neurochick
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Nothing like contracting HIV/Hepatitis from jailhouse tattooing equipment, Naz.

It will be a gift that keeps on giving.

Naz doesn't want to know/face the reality that his family is crumbling emotionally and financially so avoids calling home with his cellphone.

Naz doesn't wear shoes in the shower because under Freddy's protection he doesn't need "traction" to escape attacks.

Note to self: Wear a white shirt to court as a defendant.

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With clues now pointing to the step father, it will be VERY convenient if he picked the night that Naz hooked up with Andrea to go in and kill her.   So, I wonder...

1) Was it pre-planned, with him watching and waiting for Andrea to have "company" so he could do the deed amd have a patsy?  That would be an iffy plan, though - what if the guy Andrea brought home refused the drugs/booze and had all his faculties?  How would that play out?   

2) Did he hire some thugs (Duane Reade, etc.) and pay them off for their silence?

3) Did he sneak in himself, not even realizing that Naz was there, kill Andrea and sneak out?   That would not provide someone to take the rap, and leave him open for scrutiny... maybe.  

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Is it clear that the stepdad inherits if Andrea dies?  If Andrea's mother left everything to Andrea, and nothing for the stepfather, then wouldn't the estate go to other relatives, not the stepdad? 

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18 minutes ago, patty1h said:

3) Did he sneak in himself, not even realizing that Naz was there, kill Andrea and sneak out?   That would not provide someone to take the rap, and leave him open for scrutiny... maybe.  

That could be possible. Since Naz was in the kitchen, the Step Dad ( who will always be Mickey from Boardwalk Empire to me) could have walked through the front door and not seen him, gone upstairs, killed Andrea and then left without even knowing Naz was in the house.

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1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

The DA is so fucking off putting, she's fucking annoying me. 

The DA's presence is so distinctive and...different (her cadence, styling, she looks frail and fragile) that it kind of takes me out of scenes that she's in. 

Edited by CouchTater
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This was such a great episode.  I loved the scene with Stone and Chandra talking about who they want on a jury.  I laughed when Stone said the best jurors were young, urban women because they don't care about anybody's opinion but their own. 

What's so off putting, to me about the DA, is she sounds like someone making fun of a New York accent.  If I were on the jury, I'd feel as if she were talking down to me.

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17 minutes ago, patty1h said:

Anyone else find it odd that Freddy's crew member was so deadly intent on Naz not saying anything about his gay tryst?  

nothing really surprising about that

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24 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

nothing really surprising about that

 

43 minutes ago, patty1h said:

Anyone else find it odd that Freddy's crew member was so deadly intent on Naz not saying anything about his gay tryst?  

My guess is because It wasn't sanctioned by Freddy, who may have  other plans  for the victim.

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4 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Does anybody else feel bad for that poor cat, locked up in the room with no interaction?  I know that Stone is being as affectionate as he can but I can't help but feel for the poor thing.

I admit the cat is my main concern now (followed by Chandra).  But after a week in a cage at the pound, a bedroom with lots of space, a bed, toys, and food would be a big relief.  Our cat always investigated anything new on the floor ASAP so it's not completely unlikely that  this cat would immediately check out the ball, litter box, etc.

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I liked how Chandra fretted so much over her opening statement, then apparently dumped most of it and took her lead from the DA.  And I liked that she listened closely to Stone on jury selection:  "Why sailors?"  I wanted an answer to that.

infomofo, ??  Chandra's not behaving like a typical New Yorker? 

I was also puzzled about the guy not wanting Freddy to know about the tryst.  If he didn't want anyone to see, they should have been out of the line of sight from that window, where anyone walking by could watch them. 

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14 minutes ago, infomofo said:

Chandra- I get that you are endearingly scatterbrained, but please learn to seamless like everyone else in the city. It makes these doorway encounters that much less awkward.

Yes, Seamless or Fresh Direct.

Stone made my mouth water when he called his son and mentioned Dinosaur Bar-B-Que.

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Does anybody else feel bad for that poor cat, locked up in the room with no interaction?  I know that Stone is being as affectionate as he can but I can't help but feel for the poor thing.

Me too. I'm feel worse for that cat than for Naz, so sue me if you must. Even though he/she was rescued from the pound and imminent euthanization, it's locked up in a room and has no interaction with anyone. It was also used to being an outdoor cat so it seems unlikely it wouldn't be howling to be let out.

Then again the cat is probably a metaphor for Naz. This show seems rife with metaphors. Naz was about to get killed, was saved by Freddy; cat was about to get killed, was saved by Stone. Get it? Get it? Get it?

And I still feel like there's a big chunk of the story that's too convenient in its absence: more info about Andrea. We are constantly seeing Nancy Grace and her ilk talking about the case on television - so much so that you'd think it was the biggest story since the OJ trial. And yet, what little we know about Andrea makes her seem like a very sketchy person, and now we learn the circumstances of her death proved to be very convenient for someone who would benefit from it. Why aren't the TV people talking about that, and why is Stone only now finding out about it? And just now stopping to wonder how Andrea could afford an expensive home like that? 

If I were on the jury I'd have to rule in favor of the defendant simply because I couldn't stand the sound of the prosecutor's voice. Honestly - she should have someone else argue the case. I have a hard time believing she'd be in this position instead of working behind the scenes. She's got a voice like nails on a chalkboard.

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7 hours ago, clb1016 said:

This show has become so disappointing, given its provenance.  The only thing keeping me here at this point is the terrific cast and the fact that we’re 3/4 done.

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling this way; I was surprised by the mostly positive reviews of this episode. It all just feels so haphazard to me. This week we jumped right into the trial with very little fanfare, and are apparently going to just be skipping through big chunks of it. But somehow the investigation is still on a level that I would expect to happen before trial starts, and it looks like the cops/DA did not bother to do their due diligence in investigating other leads. I don't think that's unrealistic, but it sure makes me think less of characters like Box, and I think I'm supposed to respect him and believe he's good at his job.

I'm also frustrated by the rotation of red herring suspects and the lack of follow up on the Duane Reade stuff from last week. If that's really the end of the skin rash plot, I don't know what plot function it actually served or why we had to spend so much time on it (and if it isn't, ugh enough already). Chandra is underwritten and unbelievably naive for a professional woman who lives in NYC, and Naz is just a complete cipher to me at this point-I don't know what I'm supposed to think about who he is, which makes me increasingly less invested in the outcome of his trial and the battle for his soul. And here we are six episodes in and I still feel I know next to nothing about Andrea or what might have really happened the night she died. 

None of this is really working for me.

Edited by stagmania
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46 minutes ago, Gobi said:

 

My guess is because It wasn't sanctioned by Freddy, who may have  other plans  for the victim.

I agree! I don't think Freddy is a sexual predator and wants the guy for himself sexually but I think uses for those in his "crew" are reserved for him to decide. He's smart, he knows that this goes on, but he could consider it off-limits for those under his thumb. 

I am a bit indifferent about Helen. She speaks so slowly, with such purpose, that it comes off as condescending. She does come off as frail but I think that is such an act for the jury. I think the DA is relying too heavily on evidence, some of it circumstantial. Evidence obviously can be an ace-in-the-hole but they need to be able to paint Andrea in a positive light, otherwise any attack on her character from the defense could give them an edge. I am hoping the Stepdad takes the stand because I want to see Stone take over the questioning and go after him. It might be way too easy to point all fingers at the Stepdad but if the defense can instill some doubt, this could be a little victory for them. 

Chandra is from Minnesota right? She isn't a native NYer, though even I know the check the peephole. 

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15 minutes ago, The Hound Lives said:

I agree! I don't think Freddy is a sexual predator and wants the guy for himself sexually but I think uses for those in his "crew" are reserved for him to decide. He's smart, he knows that this goes on, but he could consider it off-limits for those under his thumb. 

Also, Petey's mom smuggles those individually-wrapped marshmallows into visitation for Freddy in exchange for Petey being "protected." 

Freddy would probably be none-too-thrilled at Vic's "urges" compromising his marshmallow imports. 

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51 minutes ago, stagmania said:

 But somehow the investigation is still on a level that I would expect to happen before trial starts, and it looks like the cops/DA did not bother to do their due diligence in investigating other leads. I don't think that's unrealistic, but it sure makes me think less of characters like Box, and I think I'm supposed to respect him and believe he's good at his job.

I don't know if we're supposed to respect Box or not.  I keep thinking about "The Central Park Five" and how the police REALLY rushed to judgement and they only did so because of who the victim was.

Nancy Grace isn't even acting, she's just doing what she normally does. 

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The police did a less than exhaustive investigation from what we've been shown. Granted  the evidence against Naz looks overwhelming, but even so they should have been working to eliminate any other possible suspects, or at least investigate as to whether Naz was acting alone. For example, the DA showed how Naz wanted the first two passengers out of his cab, only to have Andrea immediately get in it. "Was he waiting for her?" seems like something  they should have wondered about. Then, there's Dwayne Reed (whom the DA might not know about yet), a man with a violent criminal record with an MO that matches this crime and was at the scene. It'll look bad for the prosecution when Stone springs this and points out that the prosecution not only didn't investigate it, they didn't even call his companion as a witness. And, of course, the stepdad's motivation  for wanting Andrea dead. The show hasn't connected them yet, but I wonder if the stepdad was  the brains and Dwayne was the brawn in the killing. I don't think stepdad would have done it himself, as he would need an airtight alibi since he couldn't possibly know that Naz would show up and he is otherwise the prime suspect.

And that effing deer's head that was shown again (on Stone's phone). I'm convinced that is going to figure in the outcome.

I wonder if we're being set up for Naz to beat the rap, only to have  to kill one of the inmates (the one he caught having sex) and going to prison for that.

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One of the things that amazes me about the series is how action is stitched together with a visual image or a sound effect between scenes, like the sound of Stone walking in his new shoes shift to Chandra's high-heeled walk.

The seeming success of the Chinese herbalist's prescription made me think that he should go back and get something additional to relieve his cat allergies, so the poor thing could be released from "prison", and Stone could have an affectionate influence in his life.

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1 hour ago, Gobi said:

And that effing deer's head that was shown again (on Stone's phone). I'm convinced that is going to figure in the outcome.

I wonder if we're being set up for Naz to beat the rap, only to have  to kill one of the inmates (the one he caught having sex) and going to prison for that.

That deer head...dammit. I am with you that there will be some tie-in with it. 
And your last statement, I fear this. I can see that playing out but I have a pit in my stomach thinking about it. Or, Naz is released but is killed in retaliation for something that happened behind bars. Maybe that is why we keep seeing the deer head. Naz is currently the hunted and becomes someones trophy kill. 
My God...that reads like fan-fiction. Ignore me. :)

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