S06.E09: Battle Of The Bastards

[WearyTraveler]

There's also this conversation between Lady Dustin and Theon:

Quote

Barbrey: The bride weeps … Dressing her in grey and white serves no good if the girl is left to sob. The Freys might not care, but the northmen … they fear the Dreadfort, but they love the Starks.
Theon: Not you.
Barbrey: Not me, but the rest, yes. Old Whoresbane is only here because the Freys hold the Greatjon captive. And do you imagine the Hornwood men have forgotten the Bastard's last marriage, and how his lady wife was left to starve, chewing her own fingers? What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl. Lady Arya's sobs do us more harm than all of Lord Stannis's swords and spears.[2]

And this entry in Jayne Poole's bio:

Quote

 It is the presence of "Arya" in Winterfell that rouses the northern mountain clans and some other northern lords to fight with Stannis Baratheon to free "The Ned's girl."[7]

Edited June 20, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Statman]

1 minute ago, WearyTraveler said:

There's also this conversation between Lady Dustin and Theon:

And this entry in Jayne Poole's bio:

Again, House Dustin does absolutely nothing in the book to support the Starks.  In fact, their soldiers are on the side of House Bolton and she herself is an adviser to Roose.  It is SUSPECTED that Lady Dustin is playing a long game due to her overly enthusiastic hatred of Ned and her weird desire to tour the Stark crypts, but there is nothing in the books that indicate that she or her House has done anything to undermine the Boltons and the Freys presently at Winterfell.

The constant quotes to "Ned's girl" from a open source wiki still don't reference any overt action to support the Starks.  Yeah, the Wulls, Liddles and other Mountain Clans provide support, but it's to Stannis, not the Starks.  If the clans were so intent on doing something to save "Ned's girl" then they are as heck didn't show it because it took a Southerner in Stannis to get them mobilized to fight.  

[PatsyandEddie]

8 minutes ago, scottiB said:

Absolutley. Who's a good dog? You're a good dog. I'm trying to discern of it's a mastiff or Cane Corso.

That big beautiful baby is actually both. A Cane Corso is the Italian Mastiff. 

[scottiB]

2 minutes ago, PatsyandEddie said:

That big beautiful baby is actually both. A Cane Corso is the Italian Mastiff. 

Ah, thank you. Such a stunning dog with a slobbery disposition.

[Pogojoco]

Just for the record, wights only happen North of the Wall. Otherwise, there would be no crypt at Winterfell or anywhere.

I asked that Ramsey die spectacularly, and he did. So I am a satisfied customer. Jon wailing on his face for a bit was fun, too.

I was finally annoyed by Ramsey one last time by being such a great shot on poor Rickon. Serpentine, kid! I was still hoping Umber was a double agent, but whatever. I'm glad Tormund went full Street Fighter on him. I was worried for Rickon, Tormund and Wun Wun and I got two of three. Ramsey killing Wun Wun, just urgh. So do the remaining Umber/Karstark loyalists hang out? Do the other big houses (Manderleys?) show up?

The battle was beautifully shot, especially the pincer shield wall and Jon being squished. You'd have to imagine that's how a lot of people died in ancient warfare- trampled. He was a bit of an idiot, letting Ramsey play him in the exact way Sansa described,  but I also guess Ramsey was an idiot for leaving the castle, even with a bigger army. Ramsey was dumb for picking this fight in the first place.

The opening scenes with the dragons and the Greyjoys. I thought Tyrion was a bit of a bitch to Theon- I know Theon was a jerk back in the day but all of Westeros (or close to it) had to have known he's been a prisoner of Ramsey since Winterfell was taken over. Does Theon need to take his armour off so Tyrion can see all the missing bits? I'm sort of happy Theon is now with a whole army of badasses who are also missing bits.

[WearyTraveler]

25 minutes ago, Statman said:

Again, House Dustin does absolutely nothing in the book to support the Starks.  In fact, their soldiers are on the side of House Bolton and she herself is an adviser to Roose.  It is SUSPECTED that Lady Dustin is playing a long game due to her overly enthusiastic hatred of Ned and her weird desire to tour the Stark crypts, but there is nothing in the books that indicate that she or her House has done anything to undermine the Boltons and the Freys presently at Winterfell.

The constant quotes to "Ned's girl" from a open source wiki still don't reference any overt action to support the Starks.  Yeah, the Wulls, Liddles and other Mountain Clans provide support, but it's to Stannis, not the Starks.  If the clans were so intent on doing something to save "Ned's girl" then they are as heck didn't show it because it took a Southerner in Stannis to get them mobilized to fight.  

1) It's not just any open source wiki.  These guys are so thorough that Martin invited them to write the Worldbook with him.  They are obsessive to the point of sickness (which has caused many a rift in fandom, but that's neither here, nor there).  In any case, if you follow the number to the footnote in the wiki, you can get the exact chapter in the books where they mentioned Ned's girl and all the other references in the quotes I posted.

2) The mountain clans in the North were isolated.  They had no idea "Arya" was being married to the Boltons.  They didn't support a Southerner, they supported the guy who brought them the information and was willing to fight for Ned's girl.  As a matter of fact, that's the deciding point for them.  They don't support Stannis because they think he's great and the saviour of the North, they supported Stannis, because he mentioned the Arya situation.  Otherwise, he would have got nothing.  And that is made very clear in the books.  The mountain clans provided 3,000 men (all their strength) to go rescue Ned's girl, not to help Stannis gain his kingdom back.  That's an important difference, IMO.

In ASOS, Bran is helped by a Liddle, who pretty much guesses who he is because of the direwolf.  In that chapter we learn about the isolation of the mountain clans and how they barely ever got involved in Northern politics, but we also learn how Ned used to go visit them and honor them.  All of which we are reminded of when Jon advises Stannis.  It is for Ned and the loyalty they feel to him that the mountain clans come down to fight, not for the Southern Lord.  They didn't before because they had no idea that "Arya" was a prisoner.

3) I didn't include the quote from Lady Dustin to say she supported the Starks, but to give you the assessment of someone who supports Roose and is saying that the support of the other houses is still with Ned.  She's extremely bitter about that. And as the quote before that says, even Roose is suspicious that the support he has from the Northern houses is tenuous.  The whole reason for marrying Ramsay to "Arya" is to quench the winds of insurgency that Roose knows are rising.  The only thing keeping the other houses at bay are the hostages the Freys have.

One gets the feeling when reading that the Northern houses are just waiting for an opportunity to strike, which is why Roose is so adamant in marrying Ramsay to a "Stark".  Roose is not stupid.  He knows he doesn't really have the support of all those Northern houses.  He knows that they are only pretending to be with him but secretly still honor bound to the Starks.  As to what else they could have done, well, Manderly explains it very well to Davos:  until they have a Stark to rally around and the proper opportunity, they won't risk it.  They may be loyal to the Starks, but they are not stupid.

The point is, in the books, the Northmen were not the fervent Bolton supporters we saw on the show.

Edited June 20, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[lorbeer]

Loved episode even though it was quite predictable. Love Jon in this season. Yara and Danerys  also liked. Can't wait to see what will happen next in the North. I hope Sansa won't betray Jon and I hope she's not prgnant with Ramsay's child.

Edited June 20, 2016 by lorbeer

[liza0111]

Totally loved the Dany/Yara moments! Yes!

I also agree that Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale's Knights because she wasn't sure if they are going to show up. There was no way for her to be 100% confident that LF will come to their rescue. It could have ended badly if Jon counts on the Vale and they end up not showing. 

[Statman]

8 minutes ago, liza0111 said:

Totally loved the Dany/Yara moments! Yes!

I also agree that Sansa didn't tell Jon about the Vale's Knights because she wasn't sure if they are going to show up. There was no way for her to be 100% confident that LF will come to their rescue. It could have ended badly if Jon counts on the Vale and they end up not showing. 

I totally agree.

Keep in mind that Littlefinger has, among other things,:

1.  Betrayed Ned and caused him to end up getting beheaded despite telling Catelyn that he's going to aid the Starks;

2.  Married her off to a psychopathic rapist;

3.  Participated in a plot to poison Joffrey; and

4.  Pushed her aunt Lysa out of the moon door and then convinced Sansa to lie about.

With regard to #3 and #4, it's not the result that matters as Sansa is likely 100% on board with those actions, but Littlefinger clearly reveals himself to be a devious backstabber and Sansa knows it.  What makes Sansa think that Littlefinger will actually bring the Vale army to support her when his actions historically has shown her that he is not a man of his word.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Statman said:

Again, House Dustin does absolutely nothing in the book to support the Starks.  In fact, their soldiers are on the side of House Bolton and she herself is an adviser to Roose.  It is SUSPECTED that Lady Dustin is playing a long game due to her overly enthusiastic hatred of Ned and her weird desire to tour the Stark crypts, but there is nothing in the books that indicate that she or her House has done anything to undermine the Boltons and the Freys presently at Winterfell.

The constant quotes to "Ned's girl" from a open source wiki still don't reference any overt action to support the Starks.  Yeah, the Wulls, Liddles and other Mountain Clans provide support, but it's to Stannis, not the Starks.  If the clans were so intent on doing something to save "Ned's girl" then they are as heck didn't show it because it took a Southerner in Stannis to get them mobilized to fight.  

I always found it odd that despite how much the Mountain Clans loved "The Ned" that they didn't send anyone South to join Robb's army and attempt to rescue Ned.  Still, this was another Northern storyline I was sorry that they cut out.

I was annoyed too at Tyrion's attitude toward Theon.  The one time they spoke on the show in episode four it was Tyrion who verbally dressed down Theon and made a fool of him.  Though some of his anger seemed to believe he was still under the impression that Theon killed the Stark boys so that made it more understandable.

[WearyTraveler]

5 minutes ago, benteen said:

I always found it odd that despite how much the Mountain Clans loved "The Ned" that they didn't send anyone South to join Robb's army and attempt to rescue Ned.  Still, this was another Northern storyline I was sorry that they cut out.

They did send people south with Robb in ASOS:

Quote

The clans send some men south to fight alongside King Robb Stark in the War of the Five Kings. Norreys and Burleys participate in the fighting at the fords of the Trident.[13] Arya Stark notes men of the mountain clans in the camps outside the Twins.[14] Owen Norrey is slain at the Red Wedding.[15]

[WatchrTina]

Okay I just re-watched with headphones on (Blessed Seven! the sound design for the dragon attack is AMAZING) and here are a few random thoughts on topics that I don't think I've seen discussed.

Can we just talk about the pre-battle convo between Jon and Melisandre?  Jon asks for advice: she says "Don't lose."  He tells her not to bring him back if he dies: she doesn't even pretend that she will obey him.  The only comfort she can give him is that it might not work a second time because the Lord of Light may have only brought him back so that he could die in THIS battle.  Jon says "What kind of god would do that?" and she replies "The one we've got."  Damn.  For a religion based around fire imagery, that shit is COLD.

Did you notice that Wun Wun is actually the first person who seems to realize the danger when the "cauldron" is being formed.  He's inarticulate, but he ain't dumb.

I got confused by the geography of the battle at one point.  The aerial shot of the "cauldron" showed, I thought, the wall of bodies as the back wall (furthest from Ramsey) but when John climbs up out of the cauldron to look for Ramsey he seems to be looking over the wall and back in the direction from which HIS troops originated.  I'm sure that's just my confusion but I had the same reaction on both viewings.  Sight-lines, I understand, are one of the trickiest things to keep straight in editing a scene with lots of players.  

And speaking of that wall of bodies, did anyone else see the guy clawing his way up the wall with no lower legs?  Damn.

I had forgotten that Ramsey struck the final blow that killed Wun Wun.  Gosh I'm glad he's dead and in many little bitty pieces.

When Jon was beating Ramsey and then stopped when he saw Sansa I wanted one of two things to happen:

1. I wanted Sansa to say "Finish him!" or
2. I wanted Jon to step away and hand her a blade so that she could finish him.

But now I think a poster up-thread had a much better take on the situation.  Jon comes out of this battle looking like a hero (well, he IS a hero -- that was some dauntless fighting on his part and the fact that he emerged alive suggests that a divine power MAY have plans for him) and Sansa (who I assume will be installed as the Lady of Winterfell) does not murder her husband in public.  Most people don't know what a sick fuck Ramsey was and most people probably do know that she said the words in front of a Heart Tree so Sansa murdering her husband publicly would not, in the end, have been in her best interest.  It's much better that he "succumbed to his wounds" out of sight.

So, when Ramsey said "Hello Sansa" from his prison cell, did anyone else hear echoes of "Hello Clarice."

I watched the "Behind the Episode" special and the show runners said the encircling maneuver was based on the Battle of Cannae

Quote

The Romans were enclosed in a pocket with no means of escape. The Carthaginians created a wall and began destroying them. Polybius wrote, "as their outer ranks were continually cut down, and the survivors forced to pull back and huddle together, they were finally all killed where they stood.

Edited June 20, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Gertrude]

Yeah, I don't have the heart to put into arguing about this episode. It was a spectacle, and yes, it was fun to watch. I wasn't enthralled by the story beats. Mereen was probably the best thing in this episode (I know, right?)

Nothing anyone says will convince me that Sansa was anything but silly to not mention the possibility of a large force. It was silly and selfish and I thought Sansa came across as whiny and I hated seeing it. I didn't like that she gave up on Rickon so easily. It's not the fact that she knew he was as good as dead already in Ramsey's hands, that was a given and she knew it. However, the show already had her arguing to Jon that they had to take back WF and save Rickon when the letter came. I might have swallowed it better if the conversation had her say 'Look, he's as good as dead and don't fall for Ramsey's games. I am heartbroken to think of him in Ramsey's hands, but this is the truth of the situation.' She just came off as cold and inconsistent.

Sansa smiling after watching Ramsey being eaten by his dogs? I get it - revenge is sweet, but he just brought her down to his level. Not entirely happy with that. Would have preferred her to watch, and then as she turns away, take a deep breath and make it seem like she was putting this behind her, relief that it was finally and decisively over. Not a smirk. That's ... that's just disturbing. I hate the way they've written show Sansa and that's a shame.

And as fun as it was to watch Dany wreck shit with dragons, the smaller two breaking out at just that time ... come on. I rolled my eyes. The story is lazy and obvious and gives me little joy these days. That makes me really sad.

[Unknown poster]

2 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Okay I just re-watched with headphones on (Blessed Seven! the sound design for the dragon attack is AMAZING) and here are a few random thoughts on topics that I don't think I've seen discussed.

Can we just talk about the pre-battle convo between Jon and Melisandre?  Jon asks for advice: she says "Don't lose."  He tells her not to bring him back if he dies: she doesn't even pretend that she will obey him.  The only comfort she can give him is that it might not work a second time because the Lord of Light may have only brought him back so that he could die in THIS battle.  Jon says "What kind of god would do that?" and she replies "The one we've got."  Damn.  For a religion based around fire imagery, that shit is COLD.

Did you notice that Wun Wun is actually the first person who seems to realize the danger when the "cauldron" is being formed.  He's inarticulate, but he ain't dumb.

I got confused by the geography of the battle at one point.  The aerial shot of the "cauldron" showed, I thought, the wall of bodies as the back wall (furthest from Ramsey) but when John climbs up out of the cauldron to look for Ramsey he seems to be looking over the wall and back in the direction from which HIS troops originated to see Ramsey.  I'm sure that's just my confusion but I had the same reaction on both viewings.  Sight-lines, I understand, are one of the trickiest things to keep straight in editing a scene with lots of players.  

And speaking of that wall of bodies, did anyone else see the guys clawing his way up the wall with no lower legs?  Damn.

I had forgotten that Ramsey struck the final blow that killed Wun Wun.  Gosh I'm glad he's dead and in many little bitty pieces.

When Jon was beating Ramsey and then stopped when he saw Sansa I wanted one of two things to happen:

1. I wanted Sansa to say "Finish him!" or
2. I wanted Jon to step away and hand her a blade so that she could finish him.

But now I think a poster up-thread had a much better take on the situation.  Jon comes out of this battle looking like a hero (well, he IS a hero -- that was some dauntless fighting on his part and the fact that he emerged alive suggests that a divine power MAY have plans for him) and Sansa (who I assume will be installed as the Lady of Winterfell) does not murder her husband in public.  Most people don't know what a sick fuck Ramsey was and most people probably do know that she said the words in front of a Heart Tree so Sansa killing Ramsey publicly would not, in the end, been in her best interest.  It's much better that he "succumbed to his wounds" out of sight.

So, when Ramsey said "Hello Sansa" did anyone else hear echoes of "Hello Clarice."

I watched the "Behind the Episode" special and the show runners said the encircling maneuver was based on the Battle of Cannae

I'd say Jon looks anything BUT a hero, really. He completely torpedoed the plan, and would have gotten his entire army wiped out if it wasn't for the Knights of the Vale. He's a bold fighter, to be sure, but even by Stark standards he's pretty foolish. At least Robb had military acumen to counter his lack of good sense.

[lorbeer]

Just now, Unknown poster said:

I'd say Jon looks anything BUT a hero, really. He completely torpedoed the plan, and would have gotten his entire army wiped out if it wasn't for the Knights of the Vale. He's a bold fighter, to be sure, but even by Stark standards he's pretty foolish. At least Robb had military acumen to counter his lack of good sense.

That. I agree. It's sweet and charming that his so emotional and loves his family very much despite all odds, like Sansa doesn't trust him and still consider him as the-bastard-son-not-really-family. But in this situation it was deadly - they would all die horrible dead, slaughtered with no chance to survive. But I think it was important that he tried to rescue Rickon. I'm come on - who wouldn't? (normal "who", not "ramsay who)

[Ambrosefolly]

Really, at the end of the day it was some kid used as a pawn, and it was his kid in a sense. Even Tywin Lannister lost his cool for a split when his favorite, Jaime was captured.   Even Robb, who hated the Lannisters, was pretty horrified when Kastark went after 14 &15 year Lannisters for vengeance for his own kids.

And Ramsay was super Ramsay. On another forum, it was mentioned how even the most skilled sniper would have trouble getting a heart shot into Rickon, who was a moving target. Be eaten by his dogs was too good for him. 

[WatchrTina]

If you have HBO GO, go watch the "extra": Game of Thrones: Anatomy of a Scene: The Battle of Winterfell.  It's cool.  My favorite bit was learning that the scene where Jon faces the incoming cavalry charge -- that moment after his horse has been killed and he's all alone in the middle of the battle ground -- that was NOT shot using a green screen.  Kit Harrington was really there, staring into the face of 80 galloping horses.  Now I'm pretty sure they used a depth perception camera trick to make the horses seem a lot closer to Kit than they were but still . . . damn.

[AshleyN]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

I was totally waiting for Jon to call him a bastard and he didn't.  Which made it even more bizarre when he said he was trying to make Ramsay angry. 

The inability of the writers to allow Jon to verbally defend himself is really annoying.

Yeah, I was really hoping he'd do a Harry Potter and keep referring to him as Ramsay Snow. It would particularly fitting as a callback to Tyrion's advice way back in the pilot and how Jon has learned to accept his bastard status.

Edited June 20, 2016 by AshleyN

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, PatsyandEddie said:

That big beautiful baby is actually both. A Cane Corso is the Italian Mastiff. 

oh that's fascinating. i didn't realize they were the same dog. i thought it was an Italian Mastiff then someone posted a picture of a Cane Corso and I thought oh maybe it's that breed.

[Umbelina]

I'm very glad Ramsay is dead, and that Sansa had a hand in that, and frankly, that Jon gave her that.

Still, I have to think this was all a complete set up for those boffo moments, and yes, that does bother me.

IF the writers had a reason for Sansa keeping the information about the Littlefinger/Vale last minute rescue, I believe they would have shown that.  A tiny scene would have been all that was needed to justify or at least explain Sansa's actions.  They didn't give us that, and I think it's because they had nothing.  They wanted both boffo moments and they threw away logic or even feelings or common sense to get them.

I agree with those who've said they sacrificed Jon's character for Sansa, in much the same way they've sacrificed Jamie's character to build up Cersei's.  I think it's for very different reasons though.  In Cersei's case, they are obviously in love with the actress.  In Sansa's?  Three possible reasons, probably a bit of each.  They wanted the last minute rescue, and they wanted her to feed Ramsay to the dogs, they also wanted to justify her rapes.

Worth it all?  I guess, for people who like epic battle scenes over character complexity, or especially for those who love the Starks and really wanted Sansa to have her revenge.

[Dewey Decimate]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Their leader?  Maybe they've been waiting for Dany and Drogon to return.  They seem like followers.  

Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion, peacefully circling a sunny field.

Drogon: Hey, guys, let's hit up that village for some take-out. I'm hungry!

Rhaegal: Errr, but mom said we're only allowed to eat furry and four-legged...

D: Oh, come on. Try it, you'll LIKE it! DoitdoitdoitdoitdoitDOIT!

D folds his wings and turns into a nosedive towards the nearest daycare center. R/V look at each other, shrug, and dive.

[BooBear]

3 hours ago, domina89 said:

Jon has a new hairstyle this season.  Jon has not been making the best decisions this season.  Coincidence?  You decide. 

I'm not sure if it is deliberate, but I find it interesting that since Sansa first appeared at Castle Black, we have had a very subdued, if not subservient, Jon.  This may be written as a reaction to his "death" (PTSD) or, possibly, it is a reaction to being around a trueborn sibling that has dismissed him and made him feel inferior most of his life.  I think as a result we have gotten a much less confident Jon this season.  It will be interesting to see how that changes if/when he discovers his true parentage, or if/when he reunites with Arya.

I am not sure what is going on with Jon but he does seem different. Can't tell if it is bad writing or Sansa or coming back from the dead or the fact he doesn't have Samwell Tarley or his friends on the Knight's Watch around.  I do remember the show runners saying that Jon's discovery that there was nothing after death informs his attitude this year.  I hope he gets back to more of a fully rounded leader rather than a mope who likes to tell Sansa they are going with the army they have.

Edited June 21, 2016 by BooBear

[bunnyblue]

3 hours ago, lmsweb said:

I don't think it was a budget or CGI issue. I think the show realized there is no conceivable way they could explain Ghost living through that battle except by keeping him out of it. Between the arrows, charging horses, etc - he would have been killed right off the bat. I fanwanked it in my own head that Jon knew Ghost would sacrifice himself for Jon and didn't want him to do that, so he left him behind with instructions to free him if Jon should die. 

I agree. Before BOB, I wanted Ghost fighting right by Jon's side (like Robb & Grey Wind did), but after seeing the absolute mayhem I realized there was absolutely no believable way Ghost would have survived. For the first time ever, I am A-OK with Ghost being MIA. I also totally agree with your fanwank that Jon left instructions to free Ghost in the event of his death. I hope we get to see him one more time next week - walking around Winterfell at Jon's side would be great!

Edited June 21, 2016 by bunnyblue

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

And here's the thing about that... They were ALWAYS going to lose a lot of men. 

But nobody is saying they weren't going to lose a lot of men if Sansa had told Jon about the Valley forces. What some people are saying, myself included, is that had Sansa told Jon, maybe things could have been different and the final number of dead men would have been different. Let's say Sansa tells Jons that the Valley is coming and he is able to delay the face to face with Ramsay for, say, two hours. We all know Jon would still try to save Rickon and would still lose it after Ramsay kills Rickon. Davos and Tormund would still follow him and all that happened, but the Valley would have arrived two hours earlier. Less people would have died. Some of those deaths are on Sansa, just like some of those are on Jon, on Ramsay, on Davos (for following Jon).

 I don't know how it can be justified Sansa not telling Jon about LF coming to help. She says 'we should wait for a larger army', and Jon replies 'that is the army we have'. As it was written, they don't have other options, except they do but Sansa never tells him. Someone mentioned she thought she was Clausewitz and Shun Tzu (I'm paraphrasing here), and yeah, that is the main point: she thought she could decide by herself. Sorry, she cannot. That is not how a team work, that is not someone who wants to lead - or be part of the leadership group - acts. 

I would love to see Sansa finally trusting Jon in the next episode, and realizing that, yes, Sansa, he will do anything to protect you - see how he tried to save Rickon. Now that the D&D had their precious Littlefinger save the day, ruining the entire North plot in the process and also making Jon and Sansa look like idiots,  maybe the plotholes will diminish.

I rewatched the episode and the battle scenes are really a thing of beauty, as horrifying as they were. EW has an interview with Miguel Sapochnik and he said the scene were Jon wgetting tramped by the dead bodies was 'improvised' because they had a few rainy days and it ruined their original plans. Amazing. Oh, and it was really a 'rebirth'. Worth reading.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Raachel2008

[Pogojoco]

I would also like to mention Miss Yara was rocking those leather pants. And was shot in such a way to show that she was rocking those leather pants.

And yeah, I don't think Ghost should've been fighting. He would've been torn up. If anywhere, Ghost should've been up on the hill with Sansa and Lyanna Mormont or loping alongside Jon when he faced Ramsey pre-battle.  He's much better as backup than in open battle.

But they blew their direwolf budget on dragons.

[Macbeth]

5 hours ago, domina89 said:

Jon has a new hairstyle this season.  Jon has not been making the best decisions this season.  Coincidence?  You decide.

I am not a fan of the man bun.  That's a major no.  Free your locks Jon Snow. 

Show - please remember to change the Sigil on Winterfell in the opening credits.  Sometimes they forget.  Once they forgot to include the Vale when it came back on the show.  And this week Bravos was still in the opening credits. In this case I think the show was just fucking with us.

The Iron born need a new motto.  I don't think "We do sow" will work.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Macbeth

[GrailKing]

20 hours ago, FemmyV said:

That was satisfying.

Sansa, Sansa, Sansa! Six years into the show, six years, to get to the smart, sharp young woman we saw tonight. Talk about a fucking character arc, but one thing was still missing: Sansa figured out that Ramsey was going to kill Rickon no matter what — that was good. A little emotion over the impending murder of said brother would more weight to the insight. And, the Wolf Princess got her first kill. It was a good one.

I think she is going to marry LF, did you see that smile on her face when the Vale troops came in? She's getting a taste of power and knows Petyr can offer her more.

Dany and the Wise Masters: I loved everything about Mereen tonight, from Tyrion coaching Dany against killing everything in sight, to the confrontation with the Masters ("My reign has just begun"), the dragons - all three. I also liked that it DIDN'T turn out to be a case of Yara ex machina, and that Dany, the Dothraki (whose arrival was pretty much on time), and the Dragons got the job done on their own. I loved Grey Worm slice & dice. And I really, really, really liked Dany/Tyrion/Yara/Theon, and their idealism in the notion they can do better than all their fathers. Oh, yeah, Happy Fathers Day, y'all.

The actual fighting of the Bastard Bowl battle was the least interesting part for me, except strategy parts, like how Ramsey (Sansa was right!) pissed Jon off enough to abandon their plans and let his troops get surrounded, and get himself virtually undefended in front (the Red God must like Snow a WHOLE lot to keep him free from injury). Also the part where the cinematography went strobe. Ooh. Arty.

Ramsey, what an asshole and coward. And true to form, he's up for one-on-one with Jon as long as he's got a ranged weapon.

Another nice touch: the changing of the banners to match last week, at River Run.

Things I look forward to learning when Dany hits Westeros: Who, besides the Ironborn, will join the cause? Who will refuse? And who will change their initial sides?

My guess is: Dorne and Highgarden will go with Dany immediately. In the cases of Starks, the Vale, Lannister and Frey, if there are any left by Season 7 ep 02, I expect all kinds of switching back and forth among people who don't want to be allied to each other, but marriage demands it.

I think PTSD would take away emotions, when she gets time to her self she may shed some, but like in the books, it probably hurts too much.

[lmsweb]

7 hours ago, zulualpha said:

Great post Anamika.  What would have been a really good empowerment storyline, imo, would have been Sansa not sinking to Ramsay's level of brutality.  Sansa watching Ramsay get eaten by his dogs and apparently enjoying it puts her right there with him in terms of moral character.  Ramsay should have been tried and executed (or Jon should have been allowed to beat him to death in the one on one battle that Ramsay invited), but no the show had to have Sansa get her own brand of justice.

No. Just no. The man raped her, every night. And I don't get the impression it was "just" rape (and I am cringing even as I type that, because ALL rape is horrible, period). He tortured her. And then he killed her little brother.
Had that been me, I would have done the same, even knowing that getting grim satisfaction out of watching it would have left me with wounds on my soul. But it still would have been worth it. And I don't feel that affects my moral character at all. There are some things in life that demand an eye for an eye.

[Tikichick]

Such a tense episode for me.  I expected early on in the season we would have dead Ramsay by last week, this week at the latest, but it was anxious all the same.  For a few moments when Jon was trapped in the scrum I wondered if we were seeing his end as well, despite knowing he has story to play out yet.

Don't understand Sansa's reasoning about keeping Jon in the dark and hope it won't result in a rift between them.  I am hoping Sansa is prepared to do a major end run around Littlefinger, major end run resulting in her laying claim to the Vale and Riverrun in addition to Winterfell.  I think it's likely that for the first time she will engineer her own marriage, to her cousin Robyn, and I suspect she needs to do so very quickly, very quickly.

Sansa was a young girl with big dreams not very long ago who wound up seeing her father killed, almost wound up raped, was abused by a sociopathic king, was married off to someone who repelled her physically and she hated for his family ties, wound up treated well by husband number one, accepted help from her mother's old friend to reach the safety of family, found out her aunt wasn't a safe sanctuary but was bonkers, watched the protective friend marry and murder her aunt and show creepy interest in Sansa, creepy friend then marries Sansa off to another sick and demented sociopath who rapes and tortures her.  Girl has a reason to accept her dead brother with grim reality, because to her that's how life works.

Have a crazy, off the wall idea brewing that the prince who was promised may be revealed to be someone no one expects, although it would only make sense onscreen, not as a book plot.

[benteen]

It was mentioned by Kevan Lannister during Robb's first battle that it was reported that "his wolf killed a dozen men and horses."  So Ghost could have been in the fight, maybe fighting stealthy as his name suggests.  I would have been fine with a mention that he was protecting Sansa and Lady Mormont.

[Tikichick]

Just now, benteen said:

It was mentioned by Kevan Lannister during Robb's first battle that it was reported that "his wolf killed a dozen men and horses."  So Ghost could have been in the fight, maybe fighting stealthy as his name suggests.  I would have been fine with a mention that he was protecting Sansa and Lady Mormont.

I would recommend consulting Lady Mormont first and asking permission.   In an odd way it seems to me Ghost would enjoy her company.

I kept looking for sightings of her, but I realized the reality of the actress' age and the complexities of filming this episode and realized it was a bit too much and even the aftermath at Winterfell was simply too much and too graphic. 

[lmsweb]

4 hours ago, scottiB said:

Absolutley. Who's a good dog? You're a good dog. I'm trying to discern if it's a mastiff or Cane Corso.

I was thinking either Cane Corso or Presa Canario. Both breeds are truly vicious looking animals. There is an article out there with an interview with Iwan where he says that they didn't film and scenes that close with the dogs because they were highly trained guard dogs. No eye contact with them, no sudden movements, etc.

[bunnyblue]

The more I think about this episode the more I grow to love it. Yes, Jon was reckless and his sister should've told him about the Vale army, but that was not enough to ruin what was quite possibly the best episode of the entire series. I mean, my God!, I even loved every minute spent in Meereen!!

Miguel Sapochnik deserves every directing award out there. Kit Harrington, Kristofer Hivju, Dean Jagger, Liam Cunningham, and all the extras deserve all the kudos for making me feel the desperation and brutality of war. I was literally talking to my TV, begging Tormund to live.

And it is about damn time Ramin Djawadi receive some award recognition for his beautiful music. I keep replaying the scenes of Dany flying over Meereen, Jon facing down the cavalry, and the Vale army riding to the rescue because the music was epically amazing. I need the S6 soundtrack to come out yesterday. Ramin has outdone himself this season. 

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

but the Valley would have arrived two hours earlier. Less people would have died. Some of those deaths are on Sansa, just like some of those are on Jon, on Ramsay, on Davos (for following Jon).

Actually, I think the opposite would be true. If the Knights of the Vale were there before Jon got whacked with the stupid stick they would have gone into battle along with the rest of Jon's calvery and ended up as part of the wall. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.

[Pogojoco]

9 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I would recommend consulting Lady Mormont first and asking permission.   In an odd way it seems to me Ghost would enjoy her company.

I kept looking for sightings of her, but I realized the reality of the actress' age and the complexities of filming this episode and realized it was a bit too much and even the aftermath at Winterfell was simply too much and too graphic. 

She was at the little pre-battle meeting. She was not that into Ramsey.

[Raachel2008]

13 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Actually, I think the opposite would be true. If the Knights of the Vale were there before Jon got whacked with the stupid stick they would have gone into battle along with the rest of Jon's calvery and ended up as part of the wall. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.

Yes, you are, but then I'm probably not explaining myself right. I'm not talking about the Vale arriving before Ramsay killed Rickon and thus following Jon into battle, but the Vale arriving after Jon and his men were screwed but before the moment they did arrive. Do I make sense? I just think that Sansa telling Jon could have spared some lives there. 

[paigow]

6 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

He also does things nobody else would like order arrows shot at the two cavalries skirmishing even though he would kill his own men.

Since Braveheart is one of the yardsticks for battlefield gore, Longshanks gave the same order to his archers. Whether that actually happened or not, this is not a unique dramatic situation.

[Morrigan2575]

9 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Yes, you are, but then I'm probably not explaining myself right. I'm not talking about the Vale arriving before Ramsay killed Rickon and thus following Jon into battle, but the Vale arriving after Jon and his men were screwed but before the moment they did arrive. Do I make sense? I just think that Sansa telling Jon could have spared some lives there. 

Ok but, why?  

If Sansa knew for a fact that The Vale was coming and, she told Jon hey, more troops are coming, why would he go into battle without them?  Why would he delay only a couple of hours and not until they actually arrived? 

[Minneapple]

22 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Yes, you are, but then I'm probably not explaining myself right. I'm not talking about the Vale arriving before Ramsay killed Rickon and thus following Jon into battle, but the Vale arriving after Jon and his men were screwed but before the moment they did arrive. Do I make sense? I just think that Sansa telling Jon could have spared some lives there. 

Yes, but Sansa telling Jon what? That maybe some troops would arrive, but maybe not, and she doesn't know when or how many?

I think there are a number of factors that played into Sansa's choice. She's afraid of being rejected again, she doesn't want to give Jon false hope, she's not sure exactly what she should be telling Jon. Plus she doesn't trust Littlefinger -- rightfully so. What if he showed up and was all, "Hey Sansa, how about you and I hook up before these here troops lay waste to Bolton?" Sansa has been so turned around by everybody that she doesn't trust anybody, perhaps most of all herself. 

[nksarmi]

I really don't understand why people are so upset about Sansa and the Vale troops. Sansa is damaged every single bit - if not more so - than Jon (and we are talking about a character who actually DIED!). She gets a pass from me on being unsure enough of what LF will do to not tell Jon, "Wait. I can get troops from the Vale."

I have loved her all season and I thought she was wonderful in this episode. I loved her telling Ramsey he would die the next day and then telling him he would be forgotten from history. Loved it. She deserved this moment and her little smirk at the end didn't bother me one damn bit. I don't think it was a matter of going down to his level - I think it was her "I'm Sansa Stark and this is my home" moment coming to fruition for her.

I know Jon made a huge mistake and it almost cost him the battle, but I found myself able to understand his mistake far better than Ned's (hello Ned, if you must give Cersei warning - get your daughters out of King's Landing first you fool) or Robb's marriage that lost him the Twins (no matter what the motivation was - love or honor). I wanted Jon to pick up Rickon's corpse and gallop back to his men, but I also understood that this man was just resurrected from the dead and felt like an utter failure. It was only word of Rickon that made him go to war and he watched the brother/cousin he considered the rightful Lord of Winterfell die because HE failed to save the boy. The weight of that had to just about break him. He probably never expected his men to follow. He just knew he had to charge.

Everything Jon did made perfect sense under the circumstances. That isn't something I can say for Ned, Caitlyn, or Robb. So he still rates at the top of my hero list for the show.

I was SO very pleased that this episode also let me feel pretty damn good about Dany, Tyrion, Yara, and Theon. I wasn't sure how that was going to shake out, but with Tyrion guiding Dany to reason - I have hope that Jon and Dany might meet and work toward a happy ending after all.

Oh and since I just rewatched the episode with my S.O. - another thought occurred to me. This is the first time ever, I found myself thinking Dany might make a good queen for the Seven Kingdoms.

[kittykat]

1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:

She was at the little pre-battle meeting. She was not that into Ramsey.

That face is everything.  It may be time for a new avatar.

Quote

9 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

 

I really don't understand why people are so upset about Sansa and the Vale troops. Sansa is damaged every single bit - if not more so - than Jon (and we are talking about a character who actually DIED!). She gets a pass from me on being unsure enough of what LF will do to not tell Jon, "Wait. I can get troops from the Vale."

I have loved her all season and I thought she was wonderful in this episode. I loved her telling Ramsey he would die the next day and then telling him he would be forgotten from history. Loved it. She deserved this moment and her little smirk at the end didn't bother me one damn bit. I don't think it was a matter of going down to his level - I think it was her "I'm Sansa Stark and this is my home" moment coming to fruition for her.

 

 

Yes.  This.  Sure the plan didn't play out perfectly but sometimes plot holes or no plot holes it satisfying to see the good guys win.  It's the anti-Blackwater, because this time the good guys got the 11th hour rescue.  

I don't remember Blackwater getting this much flack for Tywins big rescue but I'm assuming that's because it was book source material.  I hadnt read the books yet and I remember going "OH COME ON!" when Tywin saved the day.  But again, straight from the books.

And I agree about Sansa.  Considering how much shit this show has gotten for its portrayal of rape and the after effects, or lack thereof ( for good reason) think they writers (and Sophie) has done a great job exploring the traumatic side of what she still feels.  The sickening feeling she gets just knowing he's near and having to look at him.  She's free from him physically but not mentally or emotionally and the writers and Sophie have done that well.  And I'm sure it's because D&D got thrown through the ringer  (deservedly) for last season but it's been a great arc of overcoming a horrifying experience.  The writers have dropped the ball on many things this season but not Sansa.

The theme for the Starks the season has been the episode 2 title: home.  And all the trials they have to overcome to find it once again.

[lmsweb]

I'm going to go with the assumption that we will find out next week that we will at least find out some of the "why didn't Sansa tell Jon" reasons.

I've now watched three times. The part where Sansa, at the dick-waving mini meeting between the two forces, interjects to Ramsay "how do we know you have our brother?" and he casually tosses out Shaggydog's head....I think she knew then, with absolute certainty, that 1) Rickon was going to die no matter what and 2) that Rickon's death was going to be how he would get Jon to make a mistake. Because right at that point, she abruptly tells Ramsay he's going to die tomorrow and rides off, which leaves Jon and Ramsay to almost awkwardly say "so, um, yeah....see ya tomorrow". I think she was hoping her riding off would signal to Jon to shut up and leave.
Having said that - she knew Jon was going to fuck up. She knew he would fall for whatever trick Ramsay was going to play. She probably already put 2 and 2 together and figured it would involve their brother somehow. At that point she knew her only option was the Vale army. Now - if she had said to Jon, "btw, LF has kind of a big army that might be headed this way that we could maybe borrow for a day?" - JON would have continued to fuck it up. He would have delayed the fight in the morning (alerting Ramsay). Or he would have left with her to go meet the Vale army (also alerting Ramsay). Or he may have gone into battle all cock-sure that the Vale would be there shortly to bail his ass out, and men who think they have a backup option coming to rescue them do not fight the same as men who are desperate and with no other option than to get themselves out.
I truly believe the difference in numbers of lives lost would not have been overly significant. Even with the Vale there, Jon would STILL have fucked it up with Rickon, forcing the Vale to ride in with them, resulting in an even larger mountain of dead bodies.

Now, I do not give Sansa credit to have worked out all those details on her own (she has admitted she is not a military strategist) but she KNOWS Ramsay. And she KNOWS Jon. Sometimes insight into human nature is just as important as knowing how to do battlefield maneuvers.

[Colorful Mess]

Is it possible to be both a hero and a failure? I think the show is asking us to consider this, in light of the theme of the Starks, aka "quick tempers, slow minds." Maybe Jon is different in that he constantly fails upward, and gets rewarded after each loss. Davos' line to Jon: "good that you failed...go ahead and fail again" seems to be his modus operandi now?

Also I'm wondering if Sansa withheld info about the Vale on purpose, sacrificing her own troops for an ambush? Is this why Ramsay said "You're part of me now," because they both killed their own men for a coupe de grace?

[Chris24601]

16 minutes ago, kittykat said:

And I agree about Sansa.  Considering how much shit this show has gotten for its portrayal of rape and the after effects, or lack thereof ( for good reason) think they writers (and Sophie) has done a great job exploring the traumatic side of what she still feels.  The sickening feeling she gets just knowing he's near and having to look at him.  She's free from him physically but not mentally or emotionally and the writers and Sophie have done that well.  And I'm sure it's because D&D got thrown through the ringer  (deservedly) for last season but it's been a great arc of overcoming a horrifying experience.  The writers have dropped the ball on many things this season but not Sansa.

Both Sansa and Jon have been showing classic signs of PTSD all season long. Its one of the most realistic things in this series that so many other shows just don't bother to depict... the way traumatic experiences eat away at people and do affect their behavior and decision making and do have to give kudos to both the writers and actors for their portrayal in that regard. Frankly, its a miracle they both can get out of bed in the morning instead curling up into balls somewhere.

Its the reason I've kept going off the tangent of them taking the Wildlings to some tropical island and that their happy ending would be "and nothing remotely exciting happened for the rest of their days." Because that is seriously what they need to get better (so of course they can't get that... instead they get Army of the Dead).

At least Jon probably won't have to be King of all Westeros or married to Dany because not only did Dany listen to reason, but Yara made the excellent point using Euron that can easily be extended to any husband she might want to take in Westeros... that any man, particularly another "King" would undermine her rule if he became her husband. Frankly, a nice quiet North where nothing of any importance happens for the next 50-60 years would be right up Jon and Sansa's aisle.

One last point on the PTSD... I don't know whether its because she suffered a complete psychotic break somewhere in season four and I've just gotten used to her being completely insane or if its just been bad writing for her, but it sorta annoys me that Arya has not been showing similar signs of PTSD after what she's been through (Bran too, but he hasn't been onscreen enough to make it as noticeable).

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Ok but, why?  

If Sansa knew for a fact that The Vale was coming and, she told Jon hey, more troops are coming, why would he go into battle without them?  Why would he delay only a couple of hours and not until they actually arrived? 

Because Ramsay would still have Rickon and use him as a bait? I'm sorry, there is a hundred scenarios this could have played out. I gave an example, two hours, make it five minutes or five days. My point remains the same: knowing the Vale forces *could* be coming, their strategy would have been another thus making the whole battle shorter - less lives lost.

Yes, but Sansa telling Jon what? That maybe some troops would arrive, but maybe not, and she doesn't know when or how many?

I think there are a number of factors that played into Sansa's choice. She's afraid of being rejected again, she doesn't want to give Jon false hope, she's not sure exactly what she should be telling Jon. Plus she doesn't trust Littlefinger -- rightfully so. What if he showed up and was all, "Hey Sansa, how about you and I hook up before these here troops lay waste to Bolton?" Sansa has been so turned around by everybody that she doesn't trust anybody, perhaps most of all herself. 

Telling him exactly that - the truth, Littlefinger included.

 

Quote

I don't know whether its because she suffered a complete psychotic break somewhere in season four and I've just gotten used to her being completely insane or if its just been bad writing for her, but it sorta annoys me that Arya has not been showing similar signs of PTSD after what she's been through (Bran too, but he hasn't been onscreen enough to make it as noticeable).

But not everyody who goes through traumatic events suffers from PTSD. There are tons of soldiers who go to war and come back home without being affected by PTSD. Arya may be one of those people.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Raachel2008

[FozzyBear]

On June 19, 2016 at 7:07 PM, anamika said:

So what was the point of Sansa keeping the info about the Vale army a secret leading the death of all those men and Wun Wun? Why could she not have let Jon in on that info instead of preaching to him about Ramsay?

Jon was a total idiot this episode and that sucks. Book Jon is so much more measured and a clever general. But of course, they had to write him as making bad decisions so that LF/Sansa can save the day and we get boss ass bitch Sansa. Jon has been a mess this season.

Not all that impressed with the Battle. It was basically the Starks losing miserably and dying all over. Meereen was good and so was Dany/Yara. At least we are getting somewhere there with some story progression.

I'm confused about this too (although it made for a cool episode). Did John not know or did the audience not know that John knew. Was the plan for John to try and stall the battle until Sansa got there with reinforcements, but John lost his shit when Rickon was murdered and charged too soon? Or did Sansa just not tell anyone she was working on reinforcements for some reason? I'm honestly pretty confused about what that was about. 

[lawless]

I was blown away by this episode, even as I recognized there were some story and character flaws -- but the direction and filming of the battle scenes was just incredible, so flaws and all, I just loved it.  Watched it again after reading all these posts and had some thoughts:

Secretive Sansa: She was obviously deeply worried about their situation and frustrated that Jon seemed resolutely committed to attacking with only about half the troops that Ramsey had and with no understanding of Ramsey's skills at psychological warfare, but she admitted herself that she was not able to offer other suggestions or plans because she doesn't know anything about battle strategy -- yet her intuition was right on that they were in serious, deadly trouble.  She may also have been picking up on Jon's extreme moroseness/maybe death-wish, and started to freak, particularly after actually seeing Ramsey in person again.  I don't think she was hypocritical about the chances of saving poor Rickon -- when she first talked about saving him, things were looking up for her for the first time in ages -- she'd escaped Ramsey, Brienne appeared out of no where and saved her and took her safely to Castle Black where Jon was Lord Commander, he received her warmly, they were envisioning lots of support from northern houses. . .  I think at that point, she genuinely believed saving Rickon was possible, and that Jon would figure it out if he just tried, and she just had to motivate him and help rally the North to his side.  After the massive failure of their rally-the-troops-tour, the Blackfish's unexpected demise, Brienne's continued absence, actually encountering Ramsey again, and the realization that Jon had no plan as to how to save Rickon other than to somehow miraculously beat Ramsey in battle with half the number of troops, and most of them horseless wildings -- she got the score.  I don't think her change in expectations was hypocritical so much as the hardened realism her experiences have given her.  And she was right.  She didn't know how Ramsey would bait Jon, but that he would, and successfully, because Ramsey's obscene sadism and indecency give him an enormous advantage, especially when he is in possession of a kid that you love.  Which, thanks to the fucking SmallJon, he was.

Upon re-watch I noticed that when she and Littlefinger arrive with the Knights of the Vale, Sansa initially looks very grim and unhappy, while Littlefinger looks gleeful and smug, as usual.  When the battle starts to turn, Sansa then smiles triumphantly, but my best interpretation of her looks and behavior is that Sansa did not want to ask for Littlefinger's help unless there was absolutely no chance they could prevail without it.  I think that's why she said nothing to Jon, got increasingly frustrated with him, and did not contact Littlefinger until after they'd had so much failure getting supporters and yet Jon insisted on engaging Ramsey in battle anyway.  I think she still held out hope that Jon could figure out a way to prevail, maybe even right up to the moment Ramsey forced Jon into the field in that futile attempt to save Rickon.  I would even guess that Littlefinger and Sansa mutually agreed the Knights of the Vale would enter the battle to turn the tide and ensure a Stark win, but only if it appeared really necessary.  This would minimize the losses to the Vale, which is good for Littlefinger, and maybe in Sansa's mind reduce their obligation to him as well as the credit he'd take for the win.  We suspect that Littlefinger will want Sansa to marry him, sleep with him, or who knows.  I think Sansa fears that as well, but by now she probably also worries that whatever Littlefinger wants from them, it may be much worse than that, in ways they can't yet fathom.  So she avoided taking him up on his offer until it appeared there was no possible other way.

Alternatively, maybe the show is planting seeds of a conflict over Winterfell between true-born, but female, Sansa, and male-but-a-bastard, Jon. If so, that would be a reason to keep things secret from Jon, and to allow troops loyal specifically to him to serve as cannon fodder, while preserving the support from the Vale for herself, and it would also reduce the number of wildlings, solving the problem of feeding and housing them, and getting the North to accept them.  Very cynical, Tywin-esque move there, if that was the plan. I hope not, because the last thing I want now is Stark family members fighting among themselves, and Sansa becoming that cynical and ruthless.

The Fucking SmallJon and the North that Selectively Remembers:  Boy I really, really hoped they'd have the Umbers turn on the Boltons. The actor who played the SmallJon was kinda hot and charismatic for a second fiddle character, and the dissent in the ranks of the Boltons was a great storyline in the books.  He and his troops bellowing out "Who holds the North? WE DO!  Who holds the North? WE DO! SHOW ME!" was intimidating and impressive, and I am sad for the North to lose such ferocious fighters, who will be missed in the wars to come.  But if the SmallJon could just have talked to Jon about the wildings south of the wall and cut a deal or something, Rickon and Shaggy Dog might still be alive, they could have agreed to fight the Boltons and let the wildings have the former Dreadfort (to be re-named Fort Wun Wun, so far as I'm concerned), getting them out of the Umber's hair, and the SmallJon could have gone back to bear hunting or whatever else Umbers do to amuse themselves while waiting for winter to set in.  Stupid SmallJon -- you know Ramsey was no good and you were so close to being awesome, but ended up being responsible for so much tragedy.  If Ramsey had not had Rickon in his possession, and if the Small Jon had delivered him to Jon Snow instead, so much would have been different -- so many more houses would have felt obligated to support the Starks.  Kind of like the GreatJon, who had the bright idea that Robb should be King in the North, which pitted the North against the real Baratheons and substantially limited their options for dealing with Ned's execution.  Fucking Umbers.  Great fighters, but that's why they're apparently not contenders for Warden of the North I guess.

R.I.P. Rickon and Wun Wun: RIP to them both.  I was very sad we didn't get to see the "wild little brother" Ramsey wrote about and his direwolf Shaggy Dog.  Poor kid, Ramsey really is a monster.  Yet I was equally if not more saddened to see the passing of Wun Wun, last of his kind. He was fantastic. I wish they had thought to have him just barge right through the encircling shield troops and just run through the Bolton troops in a circle, stomping on men and tearing them apart as he ran the perimeter.  That might have been enough of a distraction to break the wall of shields and enable the Stark forces to get out of the trap.  Oh well, easier said than done I guess.  Wun Wun was amazing, and they couldn't have broken into Winterfell without him.  Rest well, Wun Wun. 

Ghost: I agree that there's no way he could realistically have survived that battle.  I hope Jon left him at the Wall with Edd.  Edd's completely trustworthy, owes Ghost, and could use a friend up there, four-footed or otherwise, to watch his back.

[rubyred]

IMO it doesn't matter why Sansa didn't tell Jon (she didn't know, she wasn't sure, she didn't think Jon would accept LF's help, we don't know if she heard from LF etc.) but just the fact that she deliberately didn't tell him. Maybe telling him would have changed his strategy, maybe not. Maybe he would have blown her off again. But she lied by omission about something vitally important, and that shows a lack of trust that could/should have some repercussions in the foundation of their relationship. Great, she bitched that Jon didn't ask her opinion (an outburst which I found weirdly anachronistic), and she had a point, but saying things like "he's a sneaky snake" and "he'll get in your head" are not exactly bursting with intel. How about "he raped me on our wedding night and forced Theon to watch" -- now that's a vivid word picture that encapsulates Ramsay's pathology.

But the Battle was the Battle it was because of PLOT, and everything else came in service to that. Of course Jon Snow was going to try to save his brother. Of course he was going to blow his own battle plans. Those actions were completely in character, which made it even easier for the writers to make Ramsay's cruel strategies seem even more brilliant and commanding. 

That battle scene was brutal. It took me an hour to get through it, I kept pausing every 10 seconds because the violence was so nuts. Effective but dang, hard to watch.

On a more poignant note...I'm actually kind of dreading Jon & Arya's reunion, because she is just not that person anymore, I can't picture today's Arya jumping in his arms like she did the day he left Winterfell. (Assuming there is a reunion, just spec.)

[FozzyBear]

23 hours ago, Oscirus said:

So what's Theon's point at this juncture? Yara could've done the negotiations by herself and as a matter of fact, he seemed to be a bit of a distraction. Storywise, I get it he's needed to connect the Starks to Dany but why does Yara feel that she needs him?

Maybe because he's the male heir? Maybe she thinks she'll have a better shot of getting support if he's there supporting her too.

[lawless]

5 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

Maybe because he's the male heir? Maybe she thinks she'll have a better shot of getting support if he's there supporting her too.

I think his primary purpose is to vouch for Yara, for what that's worth to other people.  Also, he had actually met Tyrion, maybe that helped get them an audience with Dany?  While Tyrion's grudge against Theon seemed unfair and petty given all we've seen Theon go through, I had to remind myself that Tyrion knows nothing about it, and may not realize Theon's imprisonment with the Boltons was nearly so bad as it was.  Theon was quite an arrogant prick back in the day, it's amazing how much has changed.  Which Tyrion wouldn't know about of course, so it was a nice opportunity to remind us of the contrast.

I think Dany was amused by Yara's moxie, and delighted at the unexpected and unsolicited help from Westeros.  If I were them I would take it as a good sign.  I wonder if she'll have to enroll the Dothraki and Ironborn in some kind of no more raping and enslaving sensitivity classes or something.  I don't know that I would necessarily have agreed to give the Iron Islands total autonomy though, I would have made them more like Dorne.  After all, Yara and Theon have some ships that they need, but Yara and Theon don't really have anywhere else to go where they will be safe from Euron.  They need Dany as much or more than she needs them.

Maybe this is the first step in how the Greyjoy words will go from "We do not sow" to "Eight arms to hug you with."

Edited June 21, 2016 by lawless