Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Hecate7]

1 hour ago, InsertWordHere said:

Young Griff is described as having the Targ silver hair and purple eyes which he has been concealing with blue hair dye. Even if he's a fake, I think we can infer that to be passed off as Aegon he would have to be as close in looks to the real Aegon as possible.

The baby's looks aren't described in the House of the Undying vision, but Kevan Lannister does see the dead Aegon (a fake Aegon according to Varys): "Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegar’s children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy … a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word." Again, even if the baby's not really Aegon, they would want to find a baby that looked like the real Aegon and then conveniently allow his head to get bashed in.

I suspect that Griff is a fake, and that he looks nothing at all like the real original Aegon. The real Aegon was a baby. Most babies have deep blue eyes until the pigment comes in. Most babies are paler than they're going to be, and some brunette people sport blonde hair as infants. Since the person doing the bashing had probably never seen the baby before, any old baby would have done, really, but I don't think they made the switch. My reason is that whoever made the switch would have tried to rescue Rhaenys, too, and Elia, for that matter, and they didn't even try. They'd have to know in advance that bad guys were coming, that Tywin was going to switch sides and send murderers for the kids, and they'd have had to be the one to give the orders to the murderer to bash in the baby's head so thoroughly that he couldn't be recognized. Nobody was going to look very long. The only people who could have made a switch: Varys, Tywin, Elia, or the nurse, either had no reason to do it til it was too late, or reasons not to do it at all. I don't think a swap was made, and I don't think baby Aegon would have grown up to look anything like Griff. A foundling was found after the fact and a convincing tale told that dovetailed with Conington's wishful thinking and survival guilt. Since they didn't know what the baby looked like they found a kid who vaguely resembled Rhaegar.

[Oscirus]

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In terms of playing the game, LF is one of the best allies you can have.

He's one of the worst allies you can have, if anything  you'd want him on the other side since he's extremely flexible. I'd call littlefinger the Russel Hantz of GOT .

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GRRM's depiction of Sansa and Tyrion's time together was pretty clear on their personal incompatibility, even aside from circumstances.  Neither understands or is all that suited for the other.

Show is the show and books are the book. On the show, they got along  well. Probably better then expected given their circumstances.

Onto other stuff. What's the likelihood that Randyll attempts to get back his sword next season? Or will that plot line just be dropped?

I also wonder if we will see Cersei do something really suicidal like try to attack Dorne.

[CofCinci]

33 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Onto other stuff. What's the likelihood that Randyll attempts to get back his sword next season? Or will that plot line just be dropped?

With the books peppered with how he is a great battle commander, I believe Randyll makes it to lead a group in the massive WW battle.  Perhaps Randyll and his son Sam will repair their relationship along the way?  Stealing Heartsbane may have warmed Randyll to his son??? 

[Bill1978]

7 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Jaehaerys is a Targaryen name I would accept for Jon. You know nothing, Jaehaerys. Hmmm. I'm just curious why they cut that audio out and made us focus on Bran's oh-so-shocked face instead. Still leaving some intrigue into the Tower of Joy and the mystery of Lyanna/Rhaegar, I suppose. 

My guess it was purely done to delay the 'OMG' moment of Ned not being Jon's bastard.

My memory is already hazy, but didn't she say his name is... BEFORE the baby was delivered? So if she said his name is Jaehaerys the OMG moment woud have happened half a second before we saw the baby. It also helps for that awesome cutaway to Jon's face to be more Hell Yeah!!

And considering there are people out there still discussing who the father might be and can't believe the HBO blogged spoilt it because saying 'Robert will kill him' apparently isn't obvious enough, I'm guessing there would have been people watching who honestly had no idea who the baby was until it cut to Jon.

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

And considering there are people out there still discussing who the father might be and can't believe the HBO blogged spoilt it because saying 'Robert will kill him' apparently isn't obvious enough, I'm guessing there would have been people watching who honestly had no idea who the baby was until it cut to Jon.

Some people think Ned was the father. I saw others ask why Robert would kill his own son.

[Bean421]

6 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I'm still sticking to my theory that Hot Pie helped or gave Arya some pie-baking tutoring offscreen.

Maybe there will be a deleted scene, or better yet a spin off. The Joy of Cooking with Hot Pie and Arya.

[Audreythe2nd]

6 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I think the point of her time in Braavos is not her new skills, I think the real point is her story of identity crisis and the inner fight inside her heart to reject the growing darkness within. The skills can be used in the Riverlands or even in the North if Jon and Sansa need them to thwart Petyr plans.

I find it odd though that George RR Martin specifically wanted the five year gap so that Arya could be trained as an assassin in a realistic manner. I mean, that's a long time for the purpose to be to simply discover who she is as a Stark and reject the darkness. I don't doubt that one some level that *is* what Arya's story is about (she obviously rejected the Faceless Men for partly that reason), but the call of revenge is obviously strong enough where she didn't even go straight home to Winterfell - the went to the Twins to finish off Walder Frey instead (and don't get me wrong, we're all very grateful, lol). I guess what I'm saying is I go back and forth on whether next season is going to find her at a crossroads where she does indeed abandon revenge and choose to join her family, or if the allure of one last big kill is so great that it causes her to make one last detour before she presumably decides she's satisfied, and decides to go to Winterfell Season 8.

[Hana Chan]

11 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I can see why she isn't very trusting of Jon doing what NEEDS to be done.  If she and LF want the same thing she knows LF won't balk at anything when it comes to getting it.   There are of course lines, that Jon Snow won't cross and maybe Sansa feels more secure aligned with someone who will do anything.   The Battle for Winterfell was won because of Littlefinger, though Jon fought bravely, without LF, Jon would be dead and Sansa would likely be back in Ramsay's custody, if she was unable to kill herself.

This brings us right back to the issue that Jon wasn't even told that the Vale might be an option for obtaining the numbers that they needed. Sansa, if she had anything in tactical thinking, could have suggested that the Knights of the Vale be held in reserve so that Ramsey could be made overconfident and be drawn out. That would have given Jon the freedom to plan a more offensive attack (which ended up happening anyway because he tried to save Rickon) instead of the defensive plans that they were resorting to because they were so badly outnumbered.

As far as Sansa falling prey to Littlefingers blandishments about her deserving the titles and that Jon was just a "bastard born in the south" while she was Ned Stark's eldest trueborn child, what Sansa is failing to grasp is that without the power to really command (the way Dany, Yara and Lady Mormont can), her only value as the holder of these titles (whether we're just talking about Lady of Winterfell or QITN) is as a marriage commodity. The Boltons wanted her because her presence lent them legitimacy over their claim to Winterfell. Littlefinger sees her ascension as a means to help facilitate him to his own goals. She felt that the name Stark alone would rally the support of the Northern Lords, but the council in which Jon was proclaimed KITN should have shown her that bloodline wasn't enough. Jon's connection to Ned Stark lent him a bit of credibility, but it was his own actions and knowledge about what the North was facing. Lady Mormont said it best - it didn't matter that he was only a bastard. He was the one who should be in charge.

Sansa being Lady of Winterfell (because there was no way she was going to be proclaimed QITN simply because she would not be able to unify and lead the armies of the various houses) would have rendered her a figurehead to be married off and her husband would be the one with the real power. She just doesn't have the abilities that the North needs beyond her family name and if she tries to seed dissent against Jon for her own purposes, then someone (Lady Mormont, perhaps) will have little choice but to take her out. The stakes are just too damn high. Jon has proven himself by his willingness to fight and die for those beside him. Sansa surely suffered, but that doesn't mean that she should be given these titles so that she can feel better about her place in the world.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Hana Chan

[benteen]

7 hours ago, GrailKing said:

At least Thoros hasn't been seen burning people.

But he and the Brotherhood sold Gendry to Melisandre.  In Season 3, the Brotherhood was shown as placing more value on being religious fanatics. 

[Advance35]

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Jon's connection to Ned Stark lent him a bit of credibility, but it was his own actions and knowledge about what the Northw was facing. Lady Mormont said it best - it didn't matter that he was only a bastard. He was the one who should be in charge.

Robb Stark was a military wizzo as well.  And he and his bannerman were still slaughtered, not because of superior hand to hand combat skills but because they were outmatched in terms of guile.   Robb counted on everyone in his inner circle telling him the truth, they weren't and he died because of it (so did many others), Jon was counting on Sansa telling him everything and maybe he shouldn't.   Even now, I've know doubt he loves her, but maybe he shouldn't take everything she tells him as gospel.   He made an appeal to her and on the surface she agreed, maybe she even mean't it at the time and maybe ultimately, she'll stand by it BUT I got the impression Jon felt everything was resolved.   His inability to read people could prove very costly when it comes to negotiating with the South in the future.   You can't always count on people to do the right thing or recognize the right thing and I don't think that Jon has learned that yet.  If the Night King were to somehow grab Lady Mormont, would Jon go charging at him, breaking formation and leading to another situation like the BOTB?  I think Sansa has it in her to watch something horrific happen, even to an innocent, if it will serve the greater good or save even more people.

Between the two Jon is without doubt the best military commander but I don't know if I would register him as the best leader, there is a difference IMO.

[Hana Chan]

Sansa actually entertaining the suggestions of a man who sold her to a sadistic rapist doesn't exactly strike me with confidence that she'd be capable of fine political maneuvering. 

[MarySNJ]

11 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Jaehaerys is a Targaryen name I would accept for Jon. You know nothing, Jaehaerys. Hmmm. I'm just curious why they cut that audio out and made us focus on Bran's oh-so-shocked face instead. Still leaving some intrigue into the Tower of Joy and the mystery of Lyanna/Rhaegar, I suppose. 

I always speculated that Jon would have been Jaehaerys and that Ned just substituted one safe J name for the dangerous Targaryen one. One theory I read recently was that maybe Rhaegar chose the name of Jaehaerys in honor of the Conciliator, who made peace after the wars with the Faith Militant between warring factions. 

I wondered if before Rhaegar returned to Kings Landing and going off to battle Robert at the Trident, he may have had in mind that his child would be the one to bring peace between the loyalists in the South and the Rebels in the North in short term, or unite Ice and Fire in the long term. 

[stagmania]

It occurs to me that having Sansa pivot into villainy next season would be the ultimate act of D&D trolling the fandom. Sansa is a divisive character surrounded by fan arguments and disagreement (largely, I think, because she's so inconsistently written on the show and therefore her motivations are wide open to interpretation), and she has a devout fanbase who is always eager to leap to her defense due to the scorn that was (often unfairly) heaped upon her in earlier seasons. Putting her on the wrong side of the next part of the story by having her pursue her own selfish gains to the detriment of the larger goal would really turn that dynamic on its head and create lots of fodder for impassioned fan and critical engagement.

Edited June 30, 2016 by stagmania

[bluvelvet]

I don't think the Sansa vs Jon will amount to much. Jon has bigger things on his mind that fighting over who gets the master bedroom at Winterfell. In the end I can see Jon going and living with the free folk. 

 

So I just realized that Jons real name is Jaehaerys Rivers if he is a bastard or Jaehaerys Targaryen 

[Enigma X]

5 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I don't think the Sansa vs Jon will amount to much. Jon has bigger things on his mind that fighting over who gets the master bedroom at Winterfell. In the end I can see Jon going and living with the free folk. 

 

So I just realized that Jons real name is Jaehaerys Rivers if he is a bastard or Jaehaerys Targaryen 

Now that you say that, I wonder if all of the whispering in the TOJ scene had more to do with his bastard last name than his given Targaryen name.

I am still holding out hope that he is a legitimate Targaryen though.

[MarySNJ]

9 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Now that you say that, I wonder if all of the whispering in the TOJ scene had more to do with his bastard last name than his given Targaryen name.

I am still holding out hope that he is a legitimate Targaryen though.

Wouldn't he be Jaehaerys Waters (Father from the Crownlands) or Sand (born in Dorne), if not Snow? I was always on the fence about whether Jon is a legitimate son, in view of the Kings Guard present at the TOJ, but I'm wondering if being a legitimate heir is part of what makes the prophesy happen. Either way, Jon is a King now in a sort of election or acclamation. 

[stagmania]

24 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

I don't think the Sansa vs Jon will amount to much. Jon has bigger things on his mind that fighting over who gets the master bedroom at Winterfell. In the end I can see Jon going and living with the free folk. 

I was just thinking the same-I don't think Jon cares about ruling at all. I could easily see him walking away from it after the WWs are defeated, or at least stepping back and allowing whatever female character he ends up being connected with to take over.

[Enigma X]

3 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Wouldn't he be Jaehaerys Waters (Father from the Crownlands) or Sand (born in Dorne), if not Snow? I was always on the fence about whether Jon is a legitimate son, in view of the Kings Guard present at the TOJ, but I'm wondering if being a legitimate heir is part of what makes the prophesy happen. Either way, Jon is a King now in a sort of election or acclamation. 

Honestly, the illegitimate surnaming convention has always confused me. I think it goes by where the father was from (hence Jon Snow for Ned born in the North although Jon was born in the South).

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Even now, I've know doubt he loves her, but maybe he shouldn't take everything she tells him as gospel.   He made an appeal to her and on the surface she agreed, maybe she even mean't it at the time and maybe ultimately, she'll stand by it BUT I got the impression Jon felt everything was resolved.   His inability to read people could prove very costly when it comes to negotiating with the South in the future.  

My thing with Jon right now is that he still knows nothing. He really should think back on the reasons why he was killed, and how he trusted some people he shouldn't have trusted. He also thought the issue was resolved with him bringing the Wildlings south of the wall, even though it was far from that.

Sansa is right about one thing, Jon is very naive. And Jon will have to grow out of that if he's going to have half a chance at succeeding and surviving.

44 minutes ago, bluvelvet said:

So I just realized that Jons real name is Jaehaerys Rivers if he is a bastard or Jaehaerys Targaryen 

Jaehaerys Sand? because of Dorne. Regardless, he'll just always be Jon Snow. Because Jon Snow...

I wonder if there are records in Oldtown about a marriage. I can't imagine that Rhaegar who was looking at the prophecy of the PTWP wouldn't have made sure whatever child he had with Lyanna wasn't legitimate, or at least legitimized. 

I've als been wondering how many people alive that might have been and are still loyal to the Targaryens know this secret. (Maybe that's the real reason Ned went to Starfall afterwards. Arthur Dayne was at the tower, and he clearly knew what was going on there, maybe he told his sister). I can't imagine Ned, Howland Reed and Wylla are the only ones in on this.

And there have been hints in season 5 from LF that he might know a lot more than what the popular story says. There was that look he gave Sansa when she was saying how Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but then he kidnapped her and raped her. And he's now at Winterfell which makes me wonder..

Edited June 30, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[SeanC]

51 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Wouldn't he be Jaehaerys Waters (Father from the Crownlands) or Sand (born in Dorne), if not Snow? I was always on the fence about whether Jon is a legitimate son, in view of the Kings Guard present at the TOJ, but I'm wondering if being a legitimate heir is part of what makes the prophesy happen. Either way, Jon is a King now in a sort of election or acclamation. 

 

47 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Honestly, the illegitimate surnaming convention has always confused me. I think it goes by where the father was from (hence Jon Snow for Ned born in the North although Jon was born in the South).

It goes by whichever region the bastard is most associated with.  

So among Robert's bastards, Mya is Mya Stone because she was raised in the Vale, even though her noble father was a Stormlander; Robert's bastard with Delena Florent, a Reach noblewoman, is Edric Storm, because he was raised at Storm's End.

Aegon IV's various bastards have different surnames depending on where they were raised/where their mothers were from, so you have Daemon Waters (later Blackfyre) versus Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers.

[Hana Chan]

Odds are that Rhaeger married Jon's mother since he was determined to have a third heir (as his Martell wife was exceedingly frail and likely wouldn't have more children). But even it Jon's birth really was illegitimate, I can easily see Dany fixing that. Having a young and healthy close male relative would relieve her of the need to marry and still keep her family line going. She could quickly legitimize Jon, name him and his descendants as her heirs and know that the line will be continued. Oddly enough, the only place I don't see any real conflict emerging between Jon and Dany because unlike Robb, he's really got no designs on the Iron Throne. His focus is on the North and he'd happily ally with Dany to deal with the Night King.

Edited June 30, 2016 by Hana Chan

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, SeanC said:

 

It goes by whichever region the bastard is most associated with.  

So among Robert's bastards, Mya is Mya Stone because she was raised in the Vale, even though her noble father was a Stormlander; Robert's bastard with Delena Florent, a Reach noblewoman, is Edric Storm, because he was raised at Storm's End.

Aegon IV's various bastards have different surnames depending on where they were raised/where their mothers were from, so you have Daemon Waters (later Blackfyre) versus Brynden Rivers and Aegor Rivers.

Exactly. So Jon if he remains a bastard would remain Jon/Jaehaerys Snow, because regardless of who his father is he was raised at Winterfell and holds ties to the North more then anywhere else.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

But he and the Brotherhood sold Gendry to Melisandre.  In Season 3, the Brotherhood was shown as placing more value on being religious fanatics. 

No, they were shown placing more value in feeding people and fighting the houses per their conversation with Arya.

Gendry was a means for them to get that, I don't think religion factored into it at all from their POV.

Edited June 30, 2016 by GrailKing

[Oscirus]

The way HBO basically shrugged and revealed his father's name and hasn't even bothered to show anything about his parent's relationship despite having plenty of time to do so, basically tells me his legitimacy  is not important it's the fact that he's half targ/half stark or half wolf /half dragon that's important

[Enigma X]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

The way HBO basically shrugged and revealed his father's name and hasn't even bothered to show anything about his parent's relationship despite having plenty of time to do so, basically tells me his legitimacy  is not important it's the fact that he's half targ/half stark or half wolf /half dragon that's important

No doubt but still does not make me less curious about it.

[shortpplfedup]

We’re in the endgame now and I am fascinated by both the politics, and how they still come into play even with the Long Night approaching. I’m approaching this is terms of the three people who have shaken out to be the major players in the final push: Cersei, Dany and Jon.

 

Cersei: is probably the most vulnerable that she’s ever been. The Lannisters are broke, the Crown is in serious debt to the Iron Bank and the Reach is most definitely going to cut off the food supply after Cersei murdered the Lord Paramount. She’s alienated at least 3 of the Seven Kingdoms, and the rest are shaky. The North, the Reach and Dorne will never back her reign. The Westerlands will, but for how long now that the Lannister money is gone? The Riverlands are in a state of purgatory (depending on how many Freys Arya kills and how the Riverlands respond to any attempt on Edmure’s part to rule, given that he betrayed his own House). The Stormlands haven’t really been part of this tale, so there isn’t a sense of what’s happening there. And the Vale...well the Vale is up for grabs despite ep 6.10, and here’s why…

 

Jon: It can’t be overstated how the War of the Five Kings and its aftermath have decimated the North. They are running low on every kind of resource, and winter is HERE. The Vale, having stayed out of it, is well provisioned and full of fresh fighting men. The Riverlands are in chaos, the Free Folk are also decimated...the North NEEDS the Vale to prepare for the Long Night, including by sending as many reinforcements and supplies as possible to the Night’s Watch, to rebuild and man all the castles along the Wall. But Littlefinger controls the Vale. And a) he does not believe in ‘grumkins and snarks’ and b) his focus is fixed South, on the Iron Throne. What does an alliance with the North gain him if Sansa won’t have him? Remember, Cersei does not yet know LF has switched sides, he could switch back and head south with the Knights of the Vale, in an attempt to swindle or seize the throne from Cersei. But he also isn’t counting on…

 

Danaerys: right now she’s winning. She’ll land in Westeros with an infantry, a cavalry, a navy and a small but effective air force. She has allies on the ground: the Reach, Dorne, and the true heirs to the Iron Islands. She has an extremely competent Small Council. The Reach can provision her forces. The only question really is where on Westeros will she land, and what will she find when she does. Will she land in Dorne, on Dragonstone, or sail right up the Blackwater to King’s Landing? Will there be any resistance at all, or will she meet chaos? GRRM/D&D have spent so much story time building up her forces, and it would be just like GRRM to have Dany spend years building up a giant conquering army only to not have to use it to conquer. But Winter is here...

 

Wildcards:

 

The Iron Islands (Euron): if his rivals to the Salt Throne have ‘stolen’ Danaerys’ backing, he may choose to back Cersei instead, provide her a navy in exchange for the same deal Dany is giving the younger Greyjoys.

 

The Vale (Littlefinger): Will he betray the Starks YET AGAIN? (Side note, why do they keep relying on him for help? He CONTINUOUSLY betrays them!)

 

The BWB and the Red Priests: In Essos they are backing Dany. Mel is backing Jon. The South is clueless re: the Long Night, but the BWB have been spreading the word of R’hollor and with the Faith of the Seven having been essentially blown up, there is a gap they can fill. Jon banishing Mel South may eventually save his bacon.

 

King’s Landing: I honestly think Dany is going to land at the Red Keep and find nothing but corpses and fires, no battles to be had, but I’m dark like that.

 

The Citadel (Sam and the Maesters): This is probably the only Westerosi group we know almost nothing about, and considering their role as keepers of knowledge and history, I can’t help but think they will have a key role to play, even if small.

 

Arya, Bran, Jamie, Brienne: I genuinely don’t think they’re surviving to the end of the story, but will have key roles to play in the endgame. We still don’t know how the Wall comes down, who kills Cersei, which way LF will go etc. But I don’t see a battle between Cersei and Dany. Cersei’s close to the end of her story I think, and it’s more dramatically effective for her to be hoisted on her own petard than to be defeated in battle. Either way, S7 I think will be her last.

 

Matter of fact, I think any character who refused to turn their faces North will not survive Season 7: and that means Cersei and Littlefinger in particular.

[gbbarb]

8 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Sansa actually entertaining the suggestions of a man who sold her to a sadistic rapist doesn't exactly strike me with confidence that she'd be capable of fine political maneuvering. 

One should always listen to Littlefinger to get a handle of what he is doing, agreeing with him and acting on it are separate things.  Sansa is smart to listen.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

The only question really is where on Westeros will she land, and what will she find when she does. Will she land in Dorne, on Dragonstone, or sail right up the Blackwater to King’s Landing? Will there be any resistance at all, or will she meet chaos? GRRM/D&D have spent so much story time building up her forces, and it would be just like GRRM to have Dany spend years building up a giant conquering army only to not have to use it to conquer. But Winter is here...

If Dany sails straight to Kings Landing the city will surrender the minute they see those three dragons.  Cersei would then either be on the run or tossed in the Ned Stark memorial jail cell until Oleanna, Ellaria, and Tyrion work out the details of her execution.  Therefore, there's no way Dany heads straight there.  If she's a fan of history she'll stop at Dragonstone first to rest and give Lena Headey some time to earn her new 500 K per episode as the Mad Queen.

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, stagmania said:

It occurs to me that having Sansa pivot into villainy next season would be the ultimate act of D&D trolling the fandom. Sansa is a divisive character surrounded by fan arguments and disagreement (largely, I think, because she's so inconsistently written on the show and therefore her motivations are wide open to interpretation), and she has a devout fanbase who is always eager to leap to her defense due to the scorn that was (often unfairly) heaped upon her in earlier seasons. Putting her on the wrong side of the next part of the story by having her pursue her own selfish gains to the detriment of the larger goal would really turn that dynamic on its head and create lots of fodder for impassioned fan and critical engagement.

It fits the tried and true "Boy gets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl" story as well.  Sansa with Jon reunion and discussing their daddy and the room?  GETS  Sansa betraying Jon and feeling used and overlooked, possibly teaming with Littlefinger?  LOSES Sansa coming to her senses and sides with Jon?  GETS

It really depends.  I won't care with any story they give Sansa, because right now?  Anything is possible and will make more logical sense than the last two episodes and the commentary on them.  She could die trying to save Jon at the last minute.  She could go full betrayal resentment.  She could be giving Ladyship and control of Winterfell when Jon marries Dany.  She could marry Jon and eliminate the issues that way.  The writing is so deliberately vague, speculation seems fruitless.

6 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Odds are that Rhaeger married Jon's mother since he was determined to have a third heir (as his Martell wife was exceedingly frail and likely wouldn't have more children). But even it Jon's birth really was illegitimate, I can easily see Dany fixing that. Having a young and healthy close male relative would relieve her of the need to marry and still keep her family line going. She could quickly legitimize Jon, name him and his descendants as her heirs and know that the line will be continued. Oddly enough, the only place I don't see any real conflict emerging between Jon and Dany because unlike Robb, he's really got no designs on the Iron Throne. His focus is on the North and he'd happily ally with Dany to deal with the Night King.

Yeah, and Sam just happens to be in the Citadel.  Howland Reed knows, I'm sure Littlefinger wasn't the only one to note Jon's daddy's infatuation with Lyanna, hell the whole court knew when he presented her with those flowers.  Jon will probably prove it in either fire or with the dragons as well.

52 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

If Dany sails straight to Kings Landing the city will surrender the minute they see those three dragons.  Cersei would then either be on the run or tossed in the Ned Stark memorial jail cell until Oleanna, Ellaria, and Tyrion work out the details of her execution.  Therefore, there's no way Dany heads straight there.  If she's a fan of history she'll stop at Dragonstone first to rest and give Lena Headey some time to earn her new 500 K per episode as the Mad Queen.

Yeah, they will drag out Lena's story as long as it is humanly possible.  I hope the books, if they ever come, don't do that.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

If Dany sails straight to [* ] the city will surrender the minute they see those three dragons. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by paigow
Anyone would surrender without resistance. The south will fall quickly.

[Cosmosgravitation]

9 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

My thing with Jon right now is that he still knows nothing. He really should think back on the reasons why he was killed, and how he trusted some people he shouldn't have trusted. He also thought the issue was resolved with him bringing the Wildlings south of the wall, even though it was far from that.

Sansa is right about one thing, Jon is very naive. And Jon will have to grow out of that if he's going to have half a chance at succeeding and surviving.

I think Jon's naivete has been a little overblown by viewers.  The only person post assassination he's trusted that has deceived him is Sansa, and they believe she's his sister, he should be able to trust her.  

In the scene on Winterfell's wall, Jon made a point of saying how many enemies they'll have now, he's fully aware there will be people targeting them.  Between Jon and Sansa, I think Sansa is much more likely to trust someone she shouldn't next season.

"Only a fool would trust Littlefinger," - Sansa Stark.

Sure, Jon risked his life and forces to try and save Rickon, but he almost succeeded.  It took a lucky shot an olympic level archer would miss most of the time (and an arrow at that distance has a near 0% chance of being lethal, but whatever show) for him to fail.  I think the northerners respect that.

As a book fan, the naivete Jon has shown in the series has actually been very frustrating.  Book Jon is cold, analytical, and perceptive.  He's a much deeper thinker then show Jon.  Those are key traits of his personality, a similar change would be like if the show made Littlefinger stupid.  Oh wait, they did. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Cosmosgravitation

[kittykat]

I would think that Sansa would need to keep Littlefinger around to keep tabs on him.  She can't risk sending him to Kings Landing  or back to the Vale or they risk him returning to Cersei.  Best to keep him close.  And at this point Jon and the rest of the North don't give two shits about what's going on in Kings Landing, they're all on the same page about the White Walkers.  If they're going to involve the South in any way it will be to raise awareness.

My guess would be Cersei being Cersei will probably send Jaime and the Lannister not-so-welcome wagon North to get Sansa (still wanted for Joff's murder).  Jaime, already perturbed with Queen of Batshit, finally opens his eyes to the real threat and decides to help just in time for the Essos Brigand to arrive.  I'm sure as said above that D&D will stretch out Cersei's story as long as possible but I can't feasibly see her lasting two seasons.

Bran I'm guessing will head to Winterfell in 7.1 or 7.2 once he gets word that it's Stark-friendly.  Arya?  I know some have said she will go South to finish her list but I'll bet she goes home once she learns that Jon and Sansa are at WF, either finding Brienne or the Brotherhood (I hope it's Brienne just because I want to see her keep that oath all the way and fanfickittykat wants to see Arya play at swords with Pod).

My other wishful theory is that we could possibly see a Lannister on each side.  We have Tyrion on the Essos Brigand, Cersei in Kings Landing but I could imagine Jaime jumping ship and joining the North in the Battle of Winter if Cersei pushes him too far.  I don't know.  Too much time to think about this.

[Love]

Jaime, Bronn (because you know he'd follow his new BFF North), Jon & Davos fighting on the same side.....I want this so bad.  Which means it will likely never happen.

[Colorful Mess]

On 6/29/2016 at 9:25 AM, scottiB said:

Agree fully with your entire post. Jon needs to send Sansa, Cerwyn, Glover, Manderly, et al to The Wall for a 6 week bootcamp. Have Bran fetch Benjen and lay it all out for them. One sight of a wight or a White Walker (or Benjen even) will put everyone on the same page and render LF's machinations petty and meaningless. With 13 episodes left, I'll be pissed if we waste time with some conjured drama between siblings/cousins. Winter is here mothertruckers, and Jon KNOWS what that means.

Heck yes, a bootcamp, like shadow the Night's Watch for a few weeks! I'd also add to Jon's to-do list:

1. Issue a decree that everyone in the North burn their dead (I think someone mentioned this upthread)

2. Start finding ways to mass manufacture dragon glass swords and arrows (Dany!) and train people to use them

3. Purge the North of all political players who distract from the greater goal (Littlefinger's gotta go)

4. Run some experiments on wights - In the books Jon intentionally locked up some dead wildlings and left them unburned. He did this because he wanted to study the process of zombiefication to understand the enemy better.

5. Secure supplies for food and housing for refugees who will no doubt be moving southwards.

6. Reinforce Winterfell so they can at least "give the fuckers a fight."

7. Get a small council together - especially Sam and Bran in the same room - to exchange knowledge and lore about the threat

8. Lastly, make sure that people NEVER NEVER NEVER become complacent and assume the Wall will stand. Assume the WW will get over it at some point. 

As I made this list, I realize he'll be doing pretty much what he was doing anyways as Lord Commander, just with more authority and reach than before as KitN. Let's hope he doesn't get stabbed for it (again) because people think he's destroying their precious institutions.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Colorful Mess

[Umbelina]

I have been thinking about it.  I think Sansa is going to break bad, possibly VERY bad.

[Hecate7]

15 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Sansa actually entertaining the suggestions of a man who sold her to a sadistic rapist doesn't exactly strike me with confidence that she'd be capable of fine political maneuvering. 

Competence isn't the issue. Sansa was born to those titles. Nobody would be arguing about whether she should have them, if she were male, regardless of what her skill level was.

Sansa is still the Lady of Winterfell, and Jon Snow is her champion, the King in the North. I don't think Sansa is entertaining Littlefinger's suggestions. Not at all. I think she's actually a little frightened for Jon, and scared of what Baelish will do next.

[FemmyV]

You know what, tho? If Sansa is going to be the one to do LF in, she's going to have to get close to him. Very close. So close that it may look like she's lost her mind and betraying her own family. 

Just saying ...

[Umbelina]

Narration in English, filming in Croatia? 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Umbelina

[bunnyblue]

I think I spotted Gendry! Nah. How do these people know this is filming for S7?? Unless I missed something, filming hasn't even started. And I don't see any indication that what we're seeing is for GOT and not for some other TV show or movie. 

I just read an interview with Bella Ramsey and realized I will be really disappointed if we don't see Baby Bear Lyanna again in S7. The show must be aware that she's become a huge fan favorite. Surely there's still time to include her in a few scenes, no? I'd hate to think we've seen the last of the coolest little girl in the North. Imagine what an awesome team she and Davos would be in gathering allies for Jon...no one would dare say no.

[Umbelina]

I don't know.  Pretty elaborate hoax if it's fake though.  Anyone notice anything familiar from past seasons?  That's the main reason I posted it, to see if anyone spotted anything familiar.

If not, they main not be filming with the cast right now, but could be getting some battle shipping scenes in the can while the weather is good?  Or it's for a different movie?  I didn't notice a sigil.

[arjumand]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Heck yes, a bootcamp, like shadow the Night's Watch for a few weeks! I'd also add to Jon's to-do list:

1. Issue a decree that everyone in the North burn their dead (I think someone mentioned this upthread)

2. Start finding ways to mass manufacture dragon glass swords and arrows (Dany!) and train people to use them

3. Purge the North of all political players who distract from the greater goal (Littlefinger's gotta go)

4. Run some experiments on wights - In the books Jon intentionally locked up some dead wildlings and left them unburned. He did this because he wanted to study the process of zombiefication to understand the enemy better.

5. Secure supplies for food and housing for refugees who will no doubt be moving southwards.

6. Reinforce Winterfell so they can at least "give the fuckers a fight."

7. Get a small council together - especially Sam and Bran in the same room - to exchange knowledge and lore about the threat

8. Lastly, make sure that people NEVER NEVER NEVER become complacent and assume the Wall will stand. Assume the WW will get over it at some point. 

As I made this list, I realize he'll be doing pretty much what he was doing anyways as Lord Commander, just with more authority and reach than before as KitN. Let's hope he doesn't get stabbed for it (again) because people think he's destroying their precious institutions.

I like all this - also, I've been thinking. 

Surely not all the Umber and Bolton forces were killed in the battle, right? Send them to the Wall. They can't be trusted around Winterfell - let them fortify those abandoned castles along the Wall, or Castle Black itself. 

Re. the Cersei issue - rather than sending Jaime North to get Sansa, I was thinking she might send him back to the Riverlands.

Cersei: "So, did you not notice that Walder Frey's throat was cut and his sons were pies, or what?"

Jaime: "Everyone was obnoxiously fine when I left them!"

Sending Jaime North would directly contradict that conversation she had with Joffrey when she said that as a Southerner, it was impossible for him to control the North, to let the Kings wipe each other out etc. I don't remember the exact wording.

OTOH, if she wants to get rid of Jaime, that's exactly what she might do. Maybe that would be the day Jaime gets his eyes opened about how evil she really is. Or not.

Edited July 1, 2016 by arjumand
A woman should not post from her phone.

[CofCinci]

No sigil, but perhaps they'll later by added in by effects team?

Another filming location (coastline for Zumaia, Spain).  http://www.eitb.eus/es/cultura/detalle/4196854/game-of-thrones-zumaia-flysch-escenario-juego-tronos/

Could be a rest point for the fleets of Dany or Euron?

[Eyes High]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I have been thinking about it.  I think Sansa is going to break bad, possibly VERY bad.

Probably. Sophie Turner in a post-Season 6 airing interview:

Quote

There is definitely room for those two to build on this relationship that they have and I think their trust with each other is going to get stronger and stronger. He betrayed her once I don’t think he’ll do it again after the scolding that she gave him.So we shall see, but I think they’d be a good little duo, a dangerous duo but a good duo.

I think the finale spells it out pretty clearly, for all the discussion about how ambiguous it supposedly is: Sansa doesn't want to trust Littlefinger and wants to trust Jon but remains susceptible to Littlefinger's manipulations and his hints about Jon. If she had been as cold and dismissive in 6x10 towards Littlefinger as she had been in 6x05, that would be one thing, but in 6x10 Sansa is softer towards Littlefinger and for all that she scoffs to Jon that "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger," she is the one who exchanges a long glance with Littlefinger as she is passed over in the KITN scene.

From a dramatic perspective, if the conflict between Jon and Sansa in Season 7 were going to be nonexistent or as insignificant as some have been suggesting, Sansa would have sent LF packing the same way she did in 6x05. Instead, LF sticks around to sow conflict between the siblings, and judging from 6x10, he will be successful.

From a book vs. show perspective, this season maneuvred Sansa to where she appears to be circa AFFC/TWOW: wary of Littlefinger but increasingly inclined to admire him and trust him. Littlefinger rescuing the Stark forces has resolved the conflict between them caused by Littlefinger selling her to the Boltons, and she's once more listening to his advice. I think the hope is from fans that Sansa will turn on LF and send him packing, but the show seems to be going in the opposite direction and positioning Sansa as an antagonist to her brother (who's being framed as a naive, pure type in contrast to his sister) with Littlefinger merrily fanning the flames of their rivalry.

It's important so remember that Sansa was created to be the designated "traitor" Stark and was specifically created because the Starks as originally conceived got along too well. I expect this to factor into Sansa's endgame, especially now that as of the end of Season 6 with 13 episodes remaining she seems to be moving back into Littlefinger's orbit. It seems increasingly likely that she'll die along with LF in some doomed scheme to claim power. Depending on what she does to Jon in Season 7, the audience may not be terribly conflicted at the end to see her go.

Strictly speaking from a meta perspective, if Sansa goes against Jon, the hero and endgame king in all likelihood, it's really, really, really not going to end well for her.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hana Chan]

This whole question about what allows one to be "legitimately" a king is an interesting one here, because we now have three rulers (or rather two acknowledged rulers and three potential rulers) who have different motivations and justifications for seeking (or holding) their titles.

We have Cerci, who has finally dispensed with the conceit of ruling through her children and with so many of the great southern houses in disarray and the destruction of the Faith Militant, has no one to stand in her way to just take the throne for herself. She has not "right" if you look at bloodlines. She was the wife of Robert Baratheon and the mother of two kings, but has not legitimate claim to the throne except the fact that there just isn't anyone now to challenge her. After disposing of the husband that she hated and having squandered the lives of her children, she is now alone in power. But never has anyone's grasp on the Iron Throne been so precarious because while she'd gotten rid of most of her enemies, Cerci has precious few allies.

We have Jon, named KITN by the Northern Lords. He has, at best, a dubious claim based on blood (and it becomes a bit more dubious when his true heritage is considered), but unlike Daeny and Cerci, he really hadn't sought out this position. It was given to him by the Northern Lords who are in a position of desperation. After losing so much on Robb's quest for the Iron Throne (and to avenge Ned Stark), and when the insanity of the Boltons, they are now facing the biggest potential war imaginable. Jon has earned respect for not just his fighting prowess, but because of his willingness to place himself first on the battlefield. He has managed to unify the northerners and the Wildlings, who'd been enemies for centuries. He didn't seek the title, but had it thrust upon him by virtue of perceived merit.

Of the potential rulers, we have Sansa, who like Daenerys feels a sense of entitlement to the titles based on bloodlines. There are a lot of questions if she is really up to the task given what the North is facing, but that doesn't erase the sense of her feeling like she should be named (at least) Lady of Winterfell. She has a stronger claim than Jon, as she is known to be the eldest legitimate child of Ned Stark, but there are huge questions about her abilities to actually deal with the rising threat (or that she even really understands it). 

We have Daenerys, who has been raised her entire life on stories of the Targaryen's being the rightful rulers of Westeros who were unjustly overthrown and all but annihilated by Robert Baratheon. She has never actually lived in Westeros and has no practical knowledge of the people and various cultures of the different regions that she seeks to rule. And her reason for wanting to rule a country that she never lived in is based entirely on bloodline. That as the last (known) Targaryen, she's going to take back the throne that was stolen from her family. And while she has the power to do so (with the various forces she's gathered along with her dragons), she hasn't given a huge amount of consideration to actually ruling once she does so. She is a potential conqueror in the same way that her ancestors were when they first ruled Westeros.

Lastly there is Littlefinger, who is from a minor house and would under most circumstances have no claims to any major power in Westeros, let alone the Iron Throne. But he's been very clever in how he was able to manipulate various people and Houses against one another and managed to eliminate most of his opponents. Right now, he's got a slim but viable path by marrying someone with some prestige (Sansa) and using her position to vault him to his goal. He's like Cersi in that he wants what he has no legitimate right to the throne, but may manage to get there by cunning and ruthlessness and and willingness to manipulate or kill everyone around him to get there.

Of these five, the only one who really doesn't want power is Jon. He's been through enough to see that all this jockeying for power that everyone has been engaging in is meaningless against the threat of the White Walkers and the only reason that he's accepting the position at all is because it will help in dealing with that threat. He's no longer interested in his own glorification, which is a marked contrast with all the others seeking the throne. And it's the major reason why I'm hoping that he's the one who comes out on top in the end, because he's the first to recognize that ruling is not just about himself.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Hana Chan

[Minneapple]

Quote

From a book vs. show perspective, this season maneuvred Sansa to where she appears to be circa AFFC/TWOW: wary of Littlefinger but increasingly inclined to admire him and trust him. 

She straight up said on the show that anyone would be a fool to trust Littlefinger. I don't think she'll go along with him at all.

[Chris24601]

Honestly, my observation on the whole Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger setup is that people are trying to look at it as a political thriller when its not actually that at all.

As some might recall, I've previously made the case that Jon/Sansa is the most likely endgame pairing for the simple reason that its the only one that will have had enough running time to feel satisfactory to general audiences. As of the setups in the finale I definitely hold to that.

Arya's story is still one of vengeance and the rest of her list is to the south, not the north. She might pair up with Sandor and/or Mel in the process, but there's not any reunion with Jon coming in the foreseeable future. If she makes it to Winterfell at all it won't be until the end of the season or even season eight when there's only a half-dozen episodes left in the whole series. There's just not enough time in the midst of the zombie apocalypse to sell it as anything other than a perfunctory hook-up.

The same goes for Dany... her Westerosi allies are in the south (Dorne and the Reach) and her goal is the Iron Throne that is currently in Cersei's hands (also in the south). LH's salary suggests she won't be deposed until episode six or even seven of next year which means Dany doesn't turn her attention north to where Jon is until season eight... once again half a dozen episodes with way too much else going on to present anything that feels like its had a proper build-up and payoff.

Which brings me back to Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger. What are they doing while Arya seeks vengeance and Dany seeks conquest?

Well, strip away the surface details and the conflict comes down to Sansa having to deal with trust issues while choosing between Jon (who is conflicted and needs to grow himself but is basically the good guy) and Littlefinger (the classic bad boy offering the world for the cost of her soul); i.e. the core conflict of a traditional romantic plot line. Heck, its even got its own built-in third act twist (i.e. Bran reveals Jon's parentage) that changes the equation to one where both Jon and Sansa win while Littlefinger loses.

In other words, I think the groundwork has now been laid for the showrunners to give general audiences an endgame coupling with proper build-up and payoff for the audience to be satisfied and that's the reason they had to get Sansa up north ahead of her book counterpart to give it time to feel organic to the story.

As for why I see it coming in season seven vs. something held out to the very end, I think its because creating that coupling will increase the stakes going into the final battles by giving Jon something more personal to fight for than just 'saving the realm.' Instead he's fighting for his future... to return home to a wife and perhaps even a child on the way. Due their current plotlines and how long it will take them to reach Jon at this point, Dany or Arya wouldn't be able provide anything more than the HOPE of those things for Jon if they both survive the fight. That's nowhere as powerful as something already in hand that could be lost.

At least that's my read on it.

[shortpplfedup]

Honestly, I feel like a lot of speculation surrounding Sansa, her motivations and future assume facts simply not in evidence show-wise, or even book-wise. I think her blank canvas status leads fans to imprint their own desires onto her storyline. I'd honestly be surprised if any of the fan theories regarding her come to pass, and doubt that she is crucial in the endgame in the way people expect (through some never-expressed or implied desire to be QITN or of the Seven Kingdoms, or to marry Jon and have Sophie Turner/Kit Harington babies). The text just doesn't read/watch that way for me, neither does the subtext.

[amandawoods]

I thought that Jon and Sansa was going to happen based on the texts in the books too though. There's a small amount of text evidence but I thought the biggest was that in their chapter pov where they both expressed a desire for children.  They also both expressed it the same way, naming the children after their family.  They also made Sansa in the books a bastard, I'm guessing so she would be more sympathetic towards Jon when she would later meet him again.

I do agree that their making her character so ambiguous is making viewers less sympathetic towards her though.  D&D seems to be intent on her attitude toward Littlefinger/Jon being a surprise until the final reveal.   

Edited July 1, 2016 by amandawoods

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

She straight up said on the show that anyone would be a fool to trust Littlefinger. I don't think she'll go along with him at all.

To be fair, though, she was quoting Tyrion. He said the exact same thing to her, long ago.

[Audreythe2nd]

It also was a pretty neat ironic callback to Ned and LF in the throne room: "I did warn you not to trust me." So Sansa is unknowingly calling her father a fool, lol.