S05.E10: The Day the World Went Away

[CoderLady]

I thought so, too. In the episode where Reese meets Grace, she mentions they had been engaged for a few years before he was "killed." They probably went back there together a few times.

[WearyTraveler]

5 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

That's exactly what I pointed out, the waitress recognized Harold and his order.  Note the waitress never mentioned anything about any system.  My take on that scene was the waitress has worked at the cafe for 10+ years (maybe she was the owner of the cafe) and happened to have very good memory when it comes to her customers, even 10 years later.  Since Harold was there 10 years ago and did place the exact order then, she concluded that Harold had visited the cafe before. 

As Root said, Samaritan was looking at all past and present information to locate Team Machine.  Just like the waitress, Samaritan could piece together a pattern (ie similar looking person with same order on the same day 10 years later) and concluded Harold = Prof. Whistler based on that pattern.  

Two occurrences do not a pattern make, which is why my guess is that Finch had been going to the café on the anniversary of his first date with Grace every year.  Once a year is enough to think that you wouldn't be recognized by the staff at a coffee shop in NYC, which must see millions of customers a year.

As for a system, it's hard to imagine a retail shop with heavy traffic, such as a coffee shop in NYC not having some sort of system to handle orders, their accounting, their payroll, etc. Any device with software (and cash registers count as such) connected to the electric grid can be accessed by the Machine and Samaritan.  I remember one of the episodes where the number was picked because of an anomaly in his pattern, which was paying for gas in a service station that didn't fit with the person's pattern.

So, eventually, Finch put it together that Samaritan could track his patterns before Root installed those servers and that any repetition of one such pattern would immediately cause Samaritan to identify him.

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Two occurrences do not a pattern make, which is why my guess is that Finch had been going to the café on the anniversary of his first date with Grace every year.  Once a year is enough to think that you wouldn't be recognized by the staff at a coffee shop in NYC, which must see millions of customers a year.

As for a system, it's hard to imagine a retail shop with heavy traffic, such as a coffee shop in NYC not having some sort of system to handle orders, their accounting, their payroll, etc. Any device with software (and cash registers count as such) connected to the electric grid can be accessed by the Machine and Samaritan.  I remember one of the episodes where the number was picked because of an anomaly in his pattern, which was paying for gas in a service station that didn't fit with the person's pattern.

So, eventually, Finch put it together that Samaritan could track his patterns before Root installed those servers and that any repetition of one such pattern would immediately cause Samaritan to identify him.

Maybe not for human but enough for a super mega computer to establish connections for a pattern :)

We seemed to post right after each other, so I am going to append the post you quoted with what I posted a few minutes ago:

"Perhaps Harold and Grace became regular customers after their 1st date 10 years ago.  Harold never said he stopped coming 10 years ago, just that he was there for the 10th anniversary of their 1st date.  So maybe Harold and Grace came regularly for a couple of years afterward thus their orders were stuck in the waitress' memory." 

[StarBrand]

I see people now posting their therioes that Root is alive, that her "death" is a ruse to get Finch to act more aggressively. I suppose that could be possible, but for me things felt rather final.  To find out that Root is alive would take away some of the power of this episode-although one could say the same about "If-Than-Else"-we found out Shaw was alive aftewards, but that still doesn't lesson that episode's impact. Again, I don't think it's a trick the showrunners have up their sleeve, but I believe at the time of "The Crossing" they filmed shots of Fusco getting shot, to throw people off-Nolan called it "the big lie". Maybe they're pulling another one, and if so, they're being darn convincing. I don't think things are going to turn out like that. But I wouldn't be all that surprised, either....

[Jipijapa]

Root is dead.  Her body shown unequivocally on a slab in the morgue, with one of our main characters (Fusco) looking down at her, was no doubt the writers' way of signaling that there is no trickery going on here.  Same with Elias lying dead with eyes open, and Reese's removal of his glasses and closing his eyes.  Both Root and Elias' deaths were "attended" by people (Fusco and Reese) we can trust.  

For me, I'm looking forward to the last three episodes to see just how Amy Acker is involved, is she just a voice or will we see some kind of hologram, will the Machine try to adopt a human appearance as well?

I'm glad the writers spared us a Root death scene, with somebody cradling her body and screaming "NOOOOOOO!"  It wasn't necessary.  

I had enjoyed POI from the last half of the first season onward... but really started to love the show when Root came on as a regular and they explored her luminous obsession with the Machine.  I was thinking, "Wow, it will be so cool if at the end of the show, Root actually bonds with the Machine in some kind of inseparable way, if the Machine wants a human avatar and accepts Root as The Interface."  Then during Season 4 I started to feel quietly disappointed that they seemed to be turning it all into another fanservice relationship with Shaw (I did find it an amusing relationship though).  So, I'm just thrilled that Nolan &co. went through with it and allowed Root to reach her true destiny.  F YEAH.

I also felt that by the end of the show Root probably would have to die simply because she did sick things to people in the beginning.  I'm all for redemption, which she went through, but the writer in me also thinks you have to pay for some things.  As with Nina Sharp at the end of Fringe, this conclusion for her character feels very right.  (And Nina was another character - though a minor one - who was truly a strong woman character: a woman of science, a woman of power, capable of affection but not a mother, not a lover, not a seductress: a true witch.)

Edited June 2, 2016 by Jipijapa

[StarBrand]

Like I said-I'm fairly certain Root is dead. Seemed pretty final to me. But yeah, I'd like to see how Root-as-machine's voice will play out

[CoderLady]

I hope She has absorbed some of Root's personality. I've always enjoyed Root's insouciance and well-crafted snark (God, I hate that word but it's appropriate) towards all her fellow team members. The Machine has so far been a nice girl but it's time she took the verbal gloves off.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Finally all caught up. And now I am having withdrawal symptoms - no more episodes to binge on and only three episode to go.

I'm still holding out a tiny bit of hope that the powers that be might be lying liars that lie and Root will make a miraculous return but I know she won't. I understand many people will be extremely upset that another lesbian has bitten the dust, I am a little upset too but mostly because I feel Shaw needs to catch break once in a while. Root chose her own fate and as much I loved Amy Acker's performance and Root's snark, she ruined many lives for fun and profit prior to joining Team Machine. Happy ending would have felt somewhat wrong, though I think these writers could have pulled it off. That said, if they kill Shaw or Bear too, we are going to have a big problem.

Do you think that the Dark Finch speech will net Michael Emerson the Emmy nomination for this role that he so richly deserves? Probably not because these awards are a bigger joke than the marksmanship of Samaritan's minions.

I wonder who is more pissed off now - the Machine, Finch or Shaw? I wouldn't mind if the Machine goes dark for a bit too.

So many thoughts, so little time. PoI is not perfect but I am so pleased that I decided to give it a second chance. I would have missed so much otherwise.

[Terrafamilia]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

Which reminds me, there are three other guys who worked for Root that are also protected by Samaritan.  But those guys are long out of the game.

If I'm thinking of the same people you are I think there was mention of them dying in some lethal 'accidental' car crash.

[Netfoot]

4 hours ago, CoderLady said:

I hope She has absorbed some of Root's personality.

Well, in her talk with Shaw, while dodging bullets behind the car, Root basically suggests that The Machine has built a complete, logical replica of her (Root) and all the others as well, and uses them to run simulations.  That being the case, Root is essentially alive in The Machine, and available when ever The Machine needs her. Therefore, The Machine can adopt/replicate Root's attitudes, opinions, thought processes, etc, as needed.  But there is no reason to think that The Machine must adopt the Root persona, any more than She feels is appropriate.   Yes, she has adopted Root's voice to be her own, but that voice could just as easily express the attitudes of Finch, or Reece, for instance.  Or (more likely) Her very own persona, fashioned from Her own vast collection of experiences, molded by Finch, and by Her interactions with the others on the team, especially Her personal avatar Root.  (At this point my argument disappears up it's own ass...)

[yellowfred]

I have a theory that the code Root gave the Machine to help her defend herself was basically a "what would Root do" protocol (particularly since it was recently established that Samaritan kind of sucked at predicting how Root would react under stress).  Plus, as much as Finch taught the Machine to think and reason, I think Root taught Her to feel.  So, basically, I wouldn't be surprised if She takes on more than just Root's voice.

[Popples]

I don't think anyone pointed it out, but my favorite moment was when Fusco entered the safe-house, everyone pointed their guns at him, and he just says, "Yeah, I love you too."

No Bear. Boo.

I was more shocked at Elias' death than Roots. I thought he'd make it to at least the penultimate episode.

I know it's past time to let Lost go, but damn did I love Finch going all Ben Linus. Michael Emerson totally nails stone cold when he needs to.

[Terrafamilia]

Root seems to have forgotten that only recently the Machine had been stripped down to only it's most essential parts and stuffed in a suitcase. Even now it is operating with only a fraction of the capacity it once had. Even if you believe the whole 'upload by proxy' as a viable sort of personal immortality and not simply a more elaborate metaphor of the "if you still remember them they'll never really be gone" variety, what you are more likely to have is more of a detailed personality description with elaborate associated decision trees (based only on what could be scrounged up online or from personal interaction that the machine still remembers) that are brought up when needed. That is a far, far cry from some sort of 'apotheosis'.

[waving feather]

I love Root so I'm surprised by how much Elias' death affected me more than hers. Just the way he went out, how he was taking care of Finch and cheering him up, even preparing to make dinner for him beforehand... ouch my heart. 

This show finally embraced what I've always wanted: Team Machine is basically a Harold Finch Fan club, where Reese is the president and Elias the VP. Finch's warriors came out to play in a big way. I hope Finch doesn't completely throw away his rulebook though, because it's his rules and principles that got him all those people who are loyal to him and willing to die for him and his cause. 

I'm glad he's talking to the Machine directly again, I'm sure the Machine has missed him. 

Edited June 4, 2016 by waving feather

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

Root seems to have forgotten that only recently the Machine had been stripped down to only it's most essential parts and stuffed in a suitcase. Even now it is operating with only a fraction of the capacity it once had.

It seems to me that once they got the PlayStaions / X-Boxes, the Machine was able to recover itself.  There hasn't been any mention of diminished capacity since then.

[bros402]

1 hour ago, jhlipton said:

It seems to me that once they got the PlayStaions / X-Boxes, the Machine was able to recover itself.  There hasn't been any mention of diminished capacity since then.

The Playstations made it so it could have a very basic thing to run off of.

 

The thing that made it so they don't have to worry about the Machine for now are the 320 or so "next generation GPU blades" they took.

[Sulador]

On 6/2/2016 at 7:29 AM, WearyTraveler said:

Yes, you are right, the waitress recognized him, but she also recognized his order, which would be in the system and show up as a Harold pattern to Samaritan.  Their exchange was as follows:

W: Double shot and cappuccino. Glad to see you back. It's been a while, hasn't it?

H: I'm afraid that you are confusing me with someone else. This is the first time I've been to this establishment

W: Oh, sorry, it's just I thought I recognized your order too.

H: What a coincidence.

42!

Sorry, I just don't buy that the waitress recognized him AND his order after TEN YEARS. My coffeeshop servers barely recognize I'm there when I'm standing right in front of them, even though I go there a lot more often than once a year, or once every decade, or whatever the hell it was. I too live in New York, and just...no. So Samaritan would have to have been tracking Harold and waitress was a tool of same.

[DeepRunner]

2 hours ago, Sulador said:

Sorry, I just don't buy that the waitress recognized him AND his order after TEN YEARS. My coffeeshop servers barely recognize I'm there when I'm standing right in front of them, even though I go there a lot more often than once a year, or once every decade, or whatever the hell it was. I too live in New York, and just...no. So Samaritan would have to have been tracking Harold and waitress was a tool of same.

I agree here. I doubt Finch was a "regular" of the place. Someone who even goes once a year is not a "regular" although he or she may have a regular pattern of doing something. I doubt the waitress would have remembered Finch from so many customers. I can maybe see the possibility that Samaritan pulsed the info to her through the signals that Max Green found. 

[econ07]

Networks ... more shows like this please!

There must be something political for why this show has not won more writing and acting emmy's, maybe because CBS does not own the show?

[tvfanatic13]

econ07- network shows unfortunately can't compete with cable. There should be separate categories. 

I am so sad that this show is ending.

[Dowel Jones]

15 hours ago, Sulador said:

W: Double shot and cappuccino. Glad to see you back. It's been a while, hasn't it?

H: I'm afraid that you are confusing me with someone else. This is the first time I've been to this establishment

W: Oh, sorry, Mr. Linus, it's just I thought I recognized your order too.

H: What a coincidence.

Now that would have been a conversation.

[StarBrand]

Parts of the POI fandom have collectively lost their minds over this episode, it seems. It's certainly a divisive one-people either loved it or absolutely hated it, there seems to be no in between. Mostly noise about Root dying. Yes, the rug was pulled out from under us, and most people did not expect the show to kill of such a major character well before the finale. Considering all the mayhem in this episode, it's a surprise ANYONE lived the see the end of it.

It does speak to the character, and the actor, though, if people are that upset. Hell, I was upset. Is it fair? No.  Did I want Root and Shaw to have more playful banter? Yeah. Was it a cheap stunt? Hell no. How many times has even Root cheated death already? How many times has she said the Machine, Harold, Shaw, everybody, means more to her than her own life? So I can accept that eventually it would happen in the most heartbreaking way. Is it going to impact all the characters going forward? I would hope so-I don't want to go three more episodes without characters acknowledging Root's passing, how it affects them.

In fact, I praise the showrunners for having the balls to go through with it. They must have known how upset part of the fandom would be, yet they didn't shy away from this.

[stealinghome]

Hm. I have to confess that as I've been processing, I've become less and less enchanted with the episode. This post is more eloquent on the subject than I can be right now, but essentially, while Root's death is saddening and disappointing, I've long thought Root would die, so that's not what's making me cranky. What's making me cranky is that I feel the execution of her death (no pun intended) was poor. I'm REALLY pissed they fridged Root and subordinated her death and "transcendence" to Finch's manpain; those should have been game-changing events all on their own, not just steps toward Darth Finch. I'm irritated they killed her off-screen and alone to facilitate the "Machine taking Root's voice" reveal--I didn't need her to die in Shaw's/Finch's/Reese's/Fusco's arms, but come on, just compare it to Carter's final moments. I'm really underwhelmed because, frankly, it wasn't as epic a death as Root deserved--talk about super anticlimactic, Root was always larger than life and that's how she goes out? I'm really, REALLY irritated that it basically fucked over Shoot and Shaw's storyline this season, insofar as losing her tether to reality should have big consequences for Shaw but there's no time left now to show/explore that (also the show needed to get Shaw back to Team Machine way earlier than it did if they wanted to off Root in this episode, because Shoot just got zero payoff, it's like one writer wrote all the Shoot stuff this season in isolation and no one else knew what was going on). And I'm disappointed because I felt like they should have made this move in 5x12, not this episode, as it feels to me like they went "well, we need a major character death in the 100th episode! And we want Root to 'transcend!' So we'll do it then!" It's clear from showrunner interviews that this is something they always wanted to do, which is on some level fine (though I think they didn't do a good job of adjusting for how Shaw and Shoot changed the original plan for Root, as I said above), but I feel like they forced it in inorganically early to serve other plot demands, and didn't really consider what the death itself would warrant, if that makes sense.

So, yeah. Had Shaw died for real in If-Then-Else, I would have been super sad, but also been like "but what a way to fucking go out like a champ!" Root's death? Does not elicit any sort of "damn, what a way to go" reaction from me, which is...really disappointing, because if Root HAD to go out, you better believe that's the reaction I really wanted to have to her death.

Edited June 4, 2016 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

Root's death was more like a two-fold shocker twist at the end, first her death and then the reveal that The Machine took her voice.  In that sense, her death emotionally became secondary.  Perhaps the Writers felt that Root was going to "live on" as The Machine, so she didn't need that finality or closure.

[tessaray]

Root saved Harold, I'm sure that she would have counted that as a "good death" no matter how epic/not epic it was on screen.   

I didn't feel cheated - in fact, the first time watching I thought Root had died in the car and was teary-eyed when Harold was forced away with her alone  and motionless in the drivers seat.  Then when they said one person was in critical condition/surgery, there was that brief flare of hope that Root had survived.  So the writers definitely had me on the hook, mission accomplished for the "voice" reveal.   

I do agree that Root's death should not be the kick in the pants that Harold needs to finally unleash the Machine. That should have been John, IMO.   

ETA:  I guess I'm not a big Shoot shipper, so their getting short shrift doesn't bother me too much.  War time romances are always doomed. I can see why others might be more upset about it though.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by tessaray

[Agent Dark]

6 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Hm. I have to confess that as I've been processing, I've become less and less enchanted with the episode. This post is more eloquent on the subject than I can be right now, but essentially, while Root's death is saddening and disappointing, I've long thought Root would die, so that's not what's making me cranky. What's making me cranky is that I feel the execution of her death (no pun intended) was poor. I'm REALLY pissed they fridged Root and subordinated her death and "transcendence" to Finch's manpain; those should have been game-changing events all on their own, not just steps toward Darth Finch. I'm irritated they killed her off-screen and alone to facilitate the "Machine taking Root's voice" reveal--I didn't need her to die in Shaw's/Finch's/Reese's/Fusco's arms, but come on, just compare it to Carter's final moments. I'm really underwhelmed because, frankly, it wasn't as epic a death as Root deserved--talk about super anticlimactic, Root was always larger than life and that's how she goes out? I'm really, REALLY irritated that it basically fucked over Shoot and Shaw's storyline this season, insofar as losing her tether to reality should have big consequences for Shaw but there's no time left now to show/explore that (also the show needed to get Shaw back to Team Machine way earlier than it did if they wanted to off Root in this episode, because Shoot just got zero payoff, it's like one writer wrote all the Shoot stuff this season in isolation and no one else knew what was going on). And I'm disappointed because I felt like they should have made this move in 5x12, not this episode, as it feels to me like they went "well, we need a major character death in the 100th episode! And we want Root to 'transcend!' So we'll do it then!" It's clear from showrunner interviews that this is something they always wanted to do, which is on some level fine (though I think they didn't do a good job of adjusting for how Shaw and Shoot changed the original plan for Root, as I said above), but I feel like they forced it in inorganically early to serve other plot demands, and didn't really consider what the death itself would warrant, if that makes sense.

So, yeah. Had Shaw died for real in If-Then-Else, I would have been super sad, but also been like "but what a way to fucking go out like a champ!" Root's death? Does not elicit any sort of "damn, what a way to go" reaction from me, which is...really disappointing, because if Root HAD to go out, you better believe that's the reaction I really wanted to have to her death.

I don't think we can quite compare it Carter's death yet, because the true impact of Carter's death wasn't felt until the following episode.  And aside from the literal dying in John's arms, the scenes play out relatively similar - suddenly shot, Harold watches helplessly, exact fate is left hanging (if not for the interviews that went up immediately after, I would have thought Carter might have made it.  The Devil's Share even opens with a moment of a fake-out - you hear the beeping of a heart rate monitor, the camera pans down... but its Reese).  I do agree though that they miscalculated a bit on waiting for the reveal to show us her fate but, while I wouldn't say I'm completely fine with this, I do believe that The Machine was there for Root at the end.  It only need a little "Can you hear me?" or something from Root as talks to The Machine in her final moments to completely turn that around (ie make it explicit that she dies in The Machine's 'arms').  That's what I'm OK with accepting as my head canon anyway.

 

I completely disagree that she didn't go out like a boss though.  That "sniper rifle out sunroof whilst driving backwards with her foot" scene was amazing, and I definitely don't feel it was anti-climatic.  Plus, while action!Root is super awesome, I've always found philosophical!Root to be my favourite and this episode had some great scenes of that.  I also disagree with the notion that there's no payoff for Root/Shaw either and that's mainly because the show isn't over yet, but I am going to reserve full judgement until the final episode airs.  I am in the 'Root Transcended' camp though, which probably makes it easier to deal with if you don't consider that she really "died".  I just think there's so many amazing possibilities that arise from that, and it would be a shame if the show doesn't go fully there.  Maybe I'm a bit like what Root talked about in the season 3 finale - finding myself at the bottom of Pandora's Box, with only hope left heh.

[ppl]

I feel like there are three ways of looking at Root's death. One is to argue that her death was to save Harold and service his manpain, another is that she died protecting The Machine and the last one is that it is both. I believe all viewpoints are valid but I have not seen much discussion on the last way.

When Root swerved to take the bullet for Harold, she knew that she would be protecting The Machine by extension of Harold. In fact, I feel that this death was in some ways a lot more satisfying than both Carter's death and Shaw's fakeout. She died protecting her objective and a friend. I think that speaks to her evolution and redemption that in the end, she did not choose either, she chose both. If you look back, a few moments earlier, she was driving with the back of her boot while sniping the car behind her. She got her badass moment before her death, just like Carter, just like Shaw and it really enhanced her death scene.

Did Root die alone? I'm not so sure. How do we know that Fusco didn't show up at the hospital in time while she was still in critical condition? There was no timeline presented so he could have gotten to the hospital while she was still in the operating room.

Something else that I noticed is that Fusco gives a little look to Shaw before he blurts out that one of them is in critical condition. I suspect that he knew by that time and decided it would be best if Shaw and Reese went to look for Harold instead of going to the hospital. When Root's death was revealed, Fusco was sombre but not crying with tears streaming down his face. If Shaw or Reese went in his place, they might have gone on a rampage blowing their cover to Samaritan. At least this way, he is the most detached from the team so a loss won't hit him as hard as it would with Shaw or Reese.

Edited June 5, 2016 by ppl

[DeepRunner]

1 hour ago, ppl said:

 

Something else that I noticed is that Fusco gives a little look to Shaw before he blurts out that one of them is in critical condition. I suspect that he knew by that time and decided it would be best if Shaw and Reese went to look for Harold instead of going to the hospital. When Root's death was revealed, Fusco was sombre but not crying with tears streaming down his face. If Shaw or Reese went in his place, they might have gone on a rampage blowing their cover to Samaritan. At least this way, he is the most detached from the team so a loss won't hit him as hard as it would with Shaw or Reese.

I believe Fusco knew Root was dead when he told Reese and Shaw she was in critical condition (and said as much in my original posting on this episode). He likely wanted to spare Shaw until he could get to the hospital, which he offered to go to when Reese said they should split up to save Finch. Fusco has earned a lot of stripes over the course of this series, turning from a dirty cop who betrayed Reese early on, to a full member of Team Machine's Justice League.

Elias was due to die, as his story had come to its logical conclusion. He was good with a gun (to my recollection, this was the first episode where he actually fired a gun as an older man...Scarface or one of Elias's henchmen always did the killing).

But his death was expected. Root's death was shock value, and it seems to have hit its mark. I don't have as sure a footing about her transcendence to being the voice of The Machine, but, hey, we're reaching the end of the road, anyway, so, why not? 

[Agent Dark]

17 minutes ago, DeepRunner said:

I don't have as sure a footing about her transcendence to being the voice of The Machine, but, hey, we're reaching the end of the road, anyway, so, why not? 

The reason I like it is because it has everything to do with playing up the fact that The Machine has consistently been described as an Artificial Super Intelligence - that's not a made-up term the show uses, but a real concept that scientists use to describe an AI that is superior to human beings.  That can be a pretty far-fetched concept to wrap your head around, because we're used to thinking of ourselves as the dominant lifeform on this planet.  It also gets murky because the term "AI" gets saturated in various forms of entertainment, where it becomes just another sci-fi thing to go along with your laser guns and aliens.  Something that belongs in a movie, not real life.

But Artificial Intelligences are a very real thing.  Our current world is full of Artificial Narrow Intelligences (or Weak AI's) - they're your GPS navigation software, chess playing computers, targeted advertising on websites, the high-frequency stock trading algorithms, computer games and so on.  The next step is to build Artificial General Intelligences (or Strong AI); an AI that can match a human in broad intelligence.  We're still aways off that (but probably not as far as you think), if its even possible, but once we hit that step its commonly accepted amongst the leading AI experts that its only a matter of time before an ASI emerges.

If you can imagine that an ASI would be at least to human beings as we humans are to a chimpanzee then the implications of what The Machine is capable of are amazing.  Chimps are pretty smart - they use tools, are capable of performing altruistic actions and have complex social structures - but you're not going to able to explain Nuclear Physics to one.  Their brains are simply incapable of comprehending it.  Now imagine all the things that The Machine might be able to comprehend that our lesser human brains simply cant.  What is the meaning of life then?  What might it mean for the very future of humanity with such a being sitting above us on the evolutionary ladder?

That kind of stuff is fascinating to me, and I think the potential of having Root open those ideas up in the show is brilliant.  I'm not saying that downplays her death at all (it hit me hard because I fucking love Root and Amy Acker's portrayal of her), but then I think of the possibilities.  What could an ASI that chooses to merge a human identity be like?  What could that mean for someone who loved Root, and what could a relationship with a merged Root/ASI be like?

[DeepRunner]

1 minute ago, Agent Dark said:

The reason I like it is because it has everything to do with playing up the fact that The Machine has consistently been described as an Artificial Super Intelligence - that's not a made-up term the show uses, but a real concept that scientists use to describe an AI that is superior to human beings.  That can be a pretty far-fetched concept to wrap your head around, because we're used to thinking of ourselves as the dominant lifeform on this planet.  It also gets murky because the term "AI" gets saturated in various forms of entertainment, where it becomes just another sci-fi thing to go along with your laser guns and aliens.  Something that belongs in a movie, not real life.

But Artificial Intelligences are a very real thing.  Our current world is full of Artificial Narrow Intelligences (or Weak AI's) - they're your GPS navigation software, chess playing computers, targeted advertising on websites, the high-frequency stock trading algorithms, computer games and so on.  The next step is to build Artificial General Intelligences (or Strong AI); an AI that can match a human in broad intelligence.  We're still aways off that (but probably not as far as you think), if its even possible, but once we hit that step its commonly accepted amongst the leading AI experts that its only a matter of time before an ASI emerges.

If you can imagine that an ASI would be at least to human beings as we humans are to a chimpanzee then the implications of what The Machine is capable of are amazing.  Chimps are pretty smart - they use tools, are capable of performing altruistic actions and have complex social structures - but you're not going to able to explain Nuclear Physics to one.  Their brains are simply incapable of comprehending it.  Now imagine all the things that The Machine might be able to comprehend that our lesser human brains simply cant.  What is the meaning of life then?  What might it mean for the very future of humanity with such a being sitting above us on the evolutionary ladder?

That kind of stuff is fascinating to me, and I think the potential of having Root open those ideas up in the show is brilliant.  I'm not saying that downplays her death at all (it hit me hard because I fucking love Root and Amy Acker's portrayal of her), but then I think of the possibilities.  What could an ASI that chooses to merge a human identity be like?  What could that mean for someone who loved Root, and what could a relationship with a merged Root/ASI be like?

I wasn't necessarily speaking against it, @AgentDark. I only said that my footing was a bit unsure on it, and, indeed, I am willing to accept it because I am love PoI as the p-e-r-f-e-c-t show. When I heard Root's voice when Harold answered the phone, asking,"Can you hear me?", I knew The Machine had chosen hers as its voice, since she was its constant champion. FWIW, I like the journey Root has had, from sociopathic stalker to full-on sacrificing member of Team Machine. I will miss her corporeal presence; she had excellent scenes with the various members of TM.

[SharonH58]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 4:05 PM, SierraMist said:

Oh, so he was lying to the waitress when he said he'd never been there.  But is it likely she would remember his order from the last time?  Something still seems off to me about the setup.  Or was the waitress supposed to be Samaritan?

He hadn't been there in years and she remembers his order?  It was just 2 ordinary drinks, not something off the wall.  I could she her recognizing him or his voice more than his order.

[waving feather]

I don't think they downplayed her death at all. Root had the majority of the screentime this episode aside from Harold. She had quite a few lengthy conversations with both Shaw and Harold... big anvils so I wasn't very shocked by her death. I was more shocked by Elias'. All episode long I thought the writers did a good job in explaining what Root thinks is her purpose in life. It's to protect the Machine and allow it to live fully. That's why she also protected and respected Finch so much because he's the Machine's creator.

To service Finch's manpain? I don't think Root had to die for that to trigger it. Elias' death alone should be enough for Finch to have his manpain. ;-)

I actually like the non dramatic way she went out. It's all very fitting with her character. And she had such a badass boots to steering wheel moment in the car beforehand. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by waving feather

[tessaray]

32 minutes ago, waving feather said:

I don't think they downplayed her death at all. Root had the majority of the screentime this episode aside from Harold. She had quite a few lengthy conversations with both Shaw and Harold... big anvils so I wasn't very shocked by her death. I was more shocked by Elias'. All episode long I thought the writers did a good job in explaining what Root thinks is her purpose in life. It's to protect the Machine and allow it to live fully. That's why she also protected and respected Finch so much because he's the Machine's creator.

To service Finch's manpain? I don't think Root had to die for that to trigger it. Elias' death alone should be enough for Finch to have his manpain. ;-)

I actually like the non dramatic way she went out. It's all very fitting with her character. And she had such a badass boots to steering wheel moment in the car beforehand. 

Don't forget the big gun and hair scrunchie - something I'm pretty sure will end up on a t-shirt at some point. 

I've always kind of expected Root to die, though I did reserve a tiny percentage for the possibility that Harold would die and Root would take his place as Admin.  But unleashing the Machine means that Admin is no longer necessary, so I'm just going to assume everyone dies and then be glad when there's anyone left standing. (I haven't read any spoilers, so for all I know...) 

[basiltherat]

Can you teach a dog to run a computer?

[Gigi43]

3 minutes ago, basiltherat said:

Can you teach a dog to run a computer?

Bear can do anything. He already has a Twitter account after all ;-)

 

Aside from this being  one of the last episodes, this was the 100th which is always treated as a big deal. Root had a bigger role in the episode before she died than Reese did. I will never be a firm believer that Root cared about any person more than she cared about the Machine. She killed people for money, had fun hurting people (yes I see a big difference in that that than doing it for your country like Reese/Shaw, even Fusco, as a dirty cop he killed gang members /cop killers and such he was going to kill Reese because he was a threat to the cops which he should not have done but he  didn't go searching for people to kill.) She tortured and kidnapped other members of the team, including Finch in pursuit of the Machine and they actually let her in after. She said in season 4 a heroic ending would be a privilege. This was how it should have ended for her (IMO.)

 

I think Fusco lied about Root so Shaw would go help Finch.

 

I don't consider Finch having manpain in the usual sense. Reese has manpain. Finch is dealing with the results of having made something that changed the world. We saw him freak out when Nathan built the back door (side note: I would have loved an episode about how Nathan saved any of those people if there could have been more time) but he changed his view and now even more people are dying in his crusade regarding what he created and the chaos it's existence has caused.

[stealinghome]

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Root saved Harold, I'm sure that she would have counted that as a "good death" no matter how epic/not epic it was on screen.   

Oh, I'm sure Root would have considered that a good death, absolutely (and I agree with @ppl's point that Root died both for Harold and the mission/The Machine). That is totally how Root wanted to go out. But that fact doesn't change my assessment that, as a viewer, I found Root's death underwhelming and somewhat unsatisfying.

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I do agree that Root's death should not be the kick in the pants that Harold needs to finally unleash the Machine. That should have been John, IMO.   

This I do agree with. Dying via bullet meant for Finch should absolutely have been John's death.

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I don't think we can quite compare it Carter's death yet, because the true impact of Carter's death wasn't felt until the following episode.  And aside from the literal dying in John's arms, the scenes play out relatively similar - suddenly shot, Harold watches helplessly, exact fate is left hanging (if not for the interviews that went up immediately after, I would have thought Carter might have made it.

I'm just picking this comment out to say that I'm unimpressed that both Carter and Root died, not by stray bullet exactly, but by taking a bullet meant for someone else (a straight white guy...stunningly).

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 also disagree with the notion that there's no payoff for Root/Shaw either and that's mainly because the show isn't over yet, but I am going to reserve full judgement until the final episode airs.  I am in the 'Root Transcended' camp though, which probably makes it easier to deal with if you don't consider that she really "died".  I just think there's so many amazing possibilities that arise from that, and it would be a shame if the show doesn't go fully there.  Maybe I'm a bit like what Root talked about in the season 3 finale - finding myself at the bottom of Pandora's Box, with only hope left heh.

Ha, this may be where we differ, because I think the idea that Root herself transcended is, frankly, crap. ;) (I keep wanting to pull a Princess Bride on Nolan and Plageman: "You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.") Both If-Then-Else and 6,741 are dedicated to the idea that no matter how good an ASI's "template" of us is, no matter how observant they are, the ASIs can't replicate us in all our human, imperfect, unpredictable glory. The Machine can't predict that Shaw would show up at the Stock Exchange; Samaritan can't predict that Root would whip out her gun and have a suicide standoff with Shaw, or that Shaw would rather kill herself than Root. (And I don't think The Machine ever saw Root's game of chicken in 4x21 coming either). If a version of Root transcended, it's only an imperfect, inaccurate copy, a flawed simulacrum. What "transcended" is The Machine's perception of who Root was, its prediction of what Root would do, not who Root actually was. That's not the real, true Root. (Especially not Root, whose unpredictability and over the top-ness is like her calling card, heh.)

This isn't an entirely accurate analogy, but to me saying Root transcended is like programming my Siri to use the voice of someone I've lost and then claiming that person has "transcended" into my iPhone.

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Don't forget the big gun and hair scrunchie - something I'm pretty sure will end up on a t-shirt at some point. 

Ha, I will say I got a kick out of the scrunchie. Finally, something that's a big enough deal for Root to put her hair up!

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I don't consider Finch having manpain in the usual sense. Reese has manpain. Finch is dealing with the results of having made something that changed the world. We saw him freak out when Nathan built the back door (side note: I would have loved an episode about how Nathan saved any of those people if there could have been more time) but he changed his view and now even more people are dying in his crusade regarding what he created and the chaos it's existence has caused.

Finch also basically doomed Root and Elias to death by sitting on his ass, knows it, and is now all "I am getting everyone I love killed." That's pretty manpain-y. I mean, Finch isn't wrong, he should feel guilty, and I agree that he's in general less manpain-y than Reese, but I would still argue it's manpain.

[GHScorpiosRule]

It will come as no surprise that I am not sad that Root finally bit it. I was shocked that Elias did. I don't know, color me naive, but I didn't expect everyone to die. I'm not expecting happily ever afters with puppies and rainbows, but I wanted Elias to live and go one with his non-computer criminal ways.

What was going through my mind was hearing the voice of Robert DeNiro as Al Capone, saying how he wanted Elliott Ness "DEAD!" His whole family, "DEAD!" Except in my head, in my mind, I'm saying DEAD! Like DeNiro's Capone with respect to Greer. I want him DEAD! DEAD!DEAD!DEAD! And I want it drawn out, for him to SUFFER. If only beause of his smug, supercilious, pompous, arrogant ass behavior. And because Nolan and Plageman thought it would be cool or whatever they thought, when the inserted his voice into the opening credits, making me have to suffer to listen to him.

I don't want Reese to die. Or Finch. Or Fusco. And yes, even Shaw. Or BEAR! Basically, I don't want anyone from our team to die. Just Greer and Samaritan.

And I cetainly don't as FUCK want  Blackwell to be the new "Reese" if Reese...doesn't make it. He doesn't deserve it.  He knows what he's doing is wrong and he isn't military or even fucking works for the government.  He just doesn't want to go back to jail, so he'll continue to murder, which makes him better, how?

I wouldn't put anything past Nolan and Plageman. I mean why should Shaw survive (if she does) and not Reese? The show may have been telegraphing it with him breaking up with Iris, which was the SMARTEST thing the show did; and calling and thinking of Fusco as his friend and partner. Doesn't mean it has to end that way. And I'm not saying he and Iris should get back together. UGH. No. Just NO. Just have the team continue saving people after they annihilate the danger and bad guys that are Greer, his minions and Samaritan.

But I'm not allowed to have nice things. Or a horsie.

[ABay]

When Root showed up. I was not keen on her or the idea of her. To be more specific, I was not keen on the idea of Amy Acker being on a show I love. I despised Fred on Angel. Flames on the side of my face hate. Superwaifs make me sick. But over the course of the last couple of seasons, Acker et al changed my mind-not about Fred and Superwaifs, I'll loathe them to the end of time--but about Root. While she was not my favorite character and I could not possibly care less about her and Shaw as a couple, I was saddened by Root's sudden but inevitable death. Going forward, I won't dread Acker's appearance on other shows I love. 

[Snarkette]

I don't see anyone making it out of this alive other than Fusco (because kid) and Finch (because the cycle never ends, and he deals in redemption but never his own).

[Rumsy4]

The reaction to Root's death has certainly been variable. I'm still bitter over Carter's death, even if she did have an epic on-screen death. It didn't seem to mean much in the long-term. Root may not have gotten an epic death on-screen, but in some ways, her legacy is more lasting. I see the Machine taking on Root's personality and voice as more of a tribute than as any real transcendence or apotheosis of the character. 

I too loved the hair scrunchie moment. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

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I'm just picking this comment out to say that I'm unimpressed that both Carter and Root died, not by stray bullet exactly, but by taking a bullet meant for someone else (a straight white guy...stunningly).

 

Carter shot at Simmons and he shot at her at the same time. Sure, his main goal was to kill Reese but I wouldn't say that particular bullet was meant for Reese. If she had done nothing Simmons would have shot her anyway. And I think Root swerved to avoid the shot, not to draw it to himself instead of Finch. In both cases the female characters were very active participants in the struggle, they weren't some random innocents caught in a crossfire. I am not entirely satisfied by the way Root's demise was portrayed but taking bullet meant for someone else, regardless of their skin colour, sexuality and whatever is really not among my complaints. If it had been say Shaw, instead of Finch, many people would have complained anyway.

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If a version of Root transcended, it's only an imperfect, inaccurate copy, a flawed simulacrum. What "transcended" is The Machine's perception of who Root was, its prediction of what Root would do, not who Root actually was. That's not the real, true Root. (Especially not Root, whose unpredictability and over the top-ness is like her calling card, heh.)

Yes, unless they reveal that The Machine now has the ability to literally read minds, this transcendence thing is not going to work for me. And if they do, it would still feel like a cheat.

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I will never be a firm believer that Root cared about any person more than she cared about the Machine.

I am a Root/Shaw shipper and I still very much agree. I suspect only really hardcore shippers would disagree with that.

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I don't consider Finch having manpain in the usual sense. Reese has manpain. Finch is dealing with the results of having made something that changed the world

I agree. Finch finally having enough is something that has been building up even before the start of the show. Just about any traumatic event could have been the straw that broke the camel's back. Technically, he couldn't even be sure Root was dead when he snapped.

[FormerMod-a1]

I think Finch's decision had been building up all day (or 2 days? however long this ep played out), and Root pushed him way over the line into action.  All day he was looking "wide eyed" at all death going on around him.  When he was caught "he said kill me now because I'll never tell you the location of my friends or the machine". he voluntarily turned himself in to the police and so on. And at every step, when he was rescued (by Elias, by Team Machine) when he saw the body count he looked more and more in a state of shock, what I'm calling "wide eyed".  So I think it had been building up and somewhere along that crazy day he probably already had decided he'd have to do something, change something, but as he said when he was in that interrogation room he was deciding how far to go and how many of his rules to break.  I think Root's death not only pushed him over the edge into action, but also way over the edge in terms of how many rules he's willing to break and for how long.  Taking down Samaritan is the greater good, but at what cost, and now he's decided it can be a high cost.  Look at him allowing all those prisoners to go free just so he could escape.  He's at a point where this means all out war, including substantial "collateral damage".

[mtlchick]

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 And I think Root swerved to avoid the shot, not to draw it to himself instead of Finch.

I'm convinced she swerved inward to take the bullet. She had the option to swerve outward but that could mean Finch would still be shot since the shooter's (whose name I'm still forgetting) had a better line of sight with no tree in the way.  Speeding up would have had a similar outcome.  Since the goal was to protect Finch and she was already shot and bleeding, I feel that Root knew she wasn't long for the world and did what she had to make sure he was still alive.

[Agent Dark]

6 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Ha, this may be where we differ, because I think the idea that Root herself transcended is, frankly, crap. ;) (I keep wanting to pull a Princess Bride on Nolan and Plageman: "You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means.") Both If-Then-Else and 6,741 are dedicated to the idea that no matter how good an ASI's "template" of us is, no matter how observant they are, the ASIs can't replicate us in all our human, imperfect, unpredictable glory. The Machine can't predict that Shaw would show up at the Stock Exchange; Samaritan can't predict that Root would whip out her gun and have a suicide standoff with Shaw, or that Shaw would rather kill herself than Root. (And I don't think The Machine ever saw Root's game of chicken in 4x21 coming either). If a version of Root transcended, it's only an imperfect, inaccurate copy, a flawed simulacrum. What "transcended" is The Machine's perception of who Root was, its prediction of what Root would do, not who Root actually was. That's not the real, true Root. (Especially not Root, whose unpredictability and over the top-ness is like her calling card, heh.)

This isn't an entirely accurate analogy, but to me saying Root transcended is like programming my Siri to use the voice of someone I've lost and then claiming that person has "transcended" into my iPhone.

Yeah I get and respect that, but I do think it seriously downplays exactly what The Machine is.  There are massive, evolutionary, leaps between Siri (a good example of a real-world Artificial Narrow Intelligence) and what an Artificial Super Intelligence such as The Machine could be capable of.  The mistake is thinking of The Machine as just a really fancy computer, when actually She is so far above us evolutionary speaking that She may as well be God as far as our limited human brains can comprehend.  Essentially my point comes down to terms like 'simulations', 'copies' and 'predictions' not really being relevant because that is putting a limited human perception on existence.  That's why Root is such a fascinating character to me, since she was the first and one of the very few characters on the show to grasp that concept (Greer being the notable other).  "I don't mind when people call me crazy, because I know I'm right" is what she said in QSO, and that's such a perfect description of her character.  I don't even think Harold quite gets it, and he was the one that built it.

 

It's interesting you point out the failure of Samaritan to accurately predict Root and Shaw's actions in 6,741, especially when you contrast that with The Machine in If-Then-Else.  One of the things I thought that episode made pretty clear was just how accurate The Machine is, right down to little details like Harold's despair at the artwork being destroyed to the connection between Root and Shaw ("yeah sure, maybe someday") and even Her abbreviated dialogue perfectly depicting the characters.  I also don't get a read that The Machine couldn't predict Shaw showing up (She was simulating Shaw defusing the suicide bomber situation after all, which only makes sense if She is factoring in Shaw's contribution to the Stock Exchange scenario).  Samaritan on the other hand wasn't built from the ground-up with the same sort of values on human life that Harold made sure the The Machine had, and so it never evolved with that same intrinsic understanding of humans like The Machine did.  Clearly, not all Super Intelligences are created equal and differences between them is most certainly what the show's finale will be dealing with.

 

Anyway, I don't mean to bore anyone with philosophical discussions on Existence which don't really change the fact that Root died as far as human comprehension goes, but I just find this stuff so fascinating :)

[Camera One]

I see some references to "Dark Finch" and comparisons to Ben Linus on "Lost", but when I watched this episode, I saw no similarity to Ben in Michael Emerson's acting at all.  Ben was a total sociopath.  This "new" Harold was still Harold, but harder and more realistic and single-minded.  It's not like he's evil now.  Is that moniker part of the marketing?

Edited June 6, 2016 by Camera One

[waving feather]

50 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I see some references to "Dark Finch" and comparisons to Ben Linus on "Lost", but when I watched this episode, I saw no similarity to Ben in Michael Emerson's acting at all.  Ben was a total sociopath.  This "new" Harold was still Harold, but harder and more realistic and single-minded.  It's not like he's evil now.  Is that moniker part of the marketing?

Yeah I agree. I don't see crazy in his eyes like I did in Ben Linus. I see hardening in a person who has been pushed too far.

[tessaray]

Most of the philosophical discussions about transcendence and apotheosis are beyond me but I do think that Root is now part of the Machine in the same way that our loved ones are when they live on in our memories after they die.  The interesting aspect for me is - does the Machine understand it on the same level?  She knew Root intimately, in her head 24/7 for so long and now she's gone. She honors her analog interface by taking on her voice, which for a machine (lower case intentional) is mind blowing. Root's non-stop hectoring of Harold about the Machine as his child... well, as a parent I can relate to that point when your child shows true empathy for others, not just rote "act this way because Mom/Dad told you to" as a huge step in their development.   

Not really sure if that makes sense but I haven't been able to stop thinking about this stuff since the episode aired.  In fact, the last time I thought about some of this was when Caprica was airing.  They broached a lot of the same questions but I do appreciate that PoI does it without the heavy handed religiosity.      

[mad_typist]

8 hours ago, mtlchick said:

I'm convinced she swerved inward to take the bullet. She had the option to swerve outward but that could mean Finch would still be shot since the shooter's (whose name I'm still forgetting) had a better line of sight with no tree in the way.  Speeding up would have had a similar outcome.  Since the goal was to protect Finch and she was already shot and bleeding, I feel that Root knew she wasn't long for the world and did what she had to make sure he was still alive.

I assumed she swerved inward for two reasons: one, to move Finch out of the line of fire, obviously. Two, in order to line up her own return shot at the sniper. She narrowly misses him.

[mtlchick]

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Yeah I agree. I don't see crazy in his eyes like I did in Ben Linus. I see hardening in a person who has been pushed too far.

I think it's more "WOOT!  Shades of Ben Linus!" for me.  Mind you I didn't watch a lot of Lost but maybe it's tapping into some elements of Linus and translate it on how Finch must act.  (coughEmmyreelcough)

[ABay]

Yeah, mostly what I mean by "embrace his inner Ben Linus" is kicking serious ass but in the kind of way that Samaritan doesn't see coming until the trap snaps shut.  Something like "Alt Control Delete." Or "The Fix" when he's explaining that he shorted the company.

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Ben was a total sociopath. 

Hey, you try growing up on Craphole Island  and being manipulated by a  smoke monster and let’s see how stable you turn out. Heh. Poor Ben.

Michael Emerson has done a fantastic job differentiating Harold from Ben, right from the beginning, even when he was still wearing the round glasses, sharing scenes with Goodwin/Nathan, and dealing  with another cryptic unseen entity on an island. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by ABay