S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[Helena Dax]

It has to be a ruse. It doesn't seem a smart plan, I agree, but having a Stark delivered to Ramsay is such a big deal that the writers would show us how it happened. Besides, we've just finished a subplot where one Stark had to suffer at Ramsay's hands; it would be too repetitive. Like, who's next? Bran? 

Damn, we didn't get to see Thorne's face when he found out Jon was alive! I'll never forgive the writers for that! And I agree that Jon left because why would he stay? The Wildlings respect him, with or without his position as Lord Commander. The place sucks. And he probably wants to pay Ramsay a visit.

I might be mistaken, but I think the show already said what happened to Dothraki widows back in Season One, when they visited the place.

When Ramsay was trying to look regal he looked like Joffrey trying to be regal; pompous and fake.

[CherryMalotte]

Just to take a moment...I have to say I find the posts here on the GoT portion of PTV to be some of the more intelligent and thoughtful, as well as fun.  I raise a glass of Arbor gold to you all.

 

Quote

F-bombs have flown quite freely in the previous seasons.

 

You should have heard the nuclear sized ones in my house last night after Smalljon exposed the direwolf head.  If it's truly direwolf.  

I'll get back to that.

 

Quote

 He wouldn't provide a lot of details about it because he's participating in a coverup already.

 

Right!  Ned's one failing was that he had honor, and as it's been pointed out several times by several characters honor of his sort got him killed.  He wouldn't tell Cat the true parentage of Jon, and Jon has suffered for it, and Ned knew he did - because of his promise to Lyanna.  So yes, he did technically kill Dayne but had help, and probably because of being wrapped up in Lyanna's promise he never truly commented on the whole of what happened at the ToJ.  Over the years because of his returning of Dayne's sword and his own silence the story 'stretched' shall we say.  

I have to agree with some, Dany's storyline does seem to be dithering.  I suppose with anything else there's filler to get to point Z from P or Q.  I still don't see hordes of Khals pledging themselves to follow her to Westeros, but there must be something coming up, or else GRMM/D&D would have wrapped Dany up as the happy Queen or Dead Queen of the Former Slaveland.  Same with Howland Reed, I suspect he is behind more than just having his children serve as Bran's guides.

This needs a rewatch or two or three.  Then I'll have more on the direwolf or no direwolf.

Edited May 9, 2016 by CherryMalotte

[Black Knight]

5 minutes ago, CherryMalotte said:

I have to agree with some, Dany's storyline does seem to be dithering.  I suppose with anything else there's filler to get to point Z from P or Q.  I still don't see hordes of Khals pledging themselves to follow her to Westeros, but there must be something coming up, or else GRMM/D&D would have wrapped Dany up as the happy Queen or Dead Queen of the Former Slaveland.

I'm thinking Drogon wakes up from his nap (teenagers!) and flies to Dany and she rides him around Vaes Dothrak. Drogon can also torch and eat a few horses for effect. The Dothraki would see the combination of Dany/Drogon as the Stallion That Mounts the World, so I can totally see them going over to Dany in huge numbers after that. It's similar to how she won Drogo's khalasar to her at the end of the first book, but on a greater scale (both in terms of the number of people and the size of the dragon(s) involved).

[RedheadZombie]

5 hours ago, Bannon said:

Here's the issue with a story this vast being portrayed in 10 hours a year. There is no time to portray opposing political forces, or the social context, in Slaver's Bay, in any depth at all. Thus, for years now, we have a few minutes of expository dialogue  a week, from one perspective and now it's really, really, getting forced.

I said years ago that Tywin Lannister was the character that glued this story together on television, especially as well acted as he was,  and the writers would find it very difficult to make things anywhere near as compelling once he was dead. I wish I had been wrong. 

I feel the same way with Cersei and Little Finger.  At least Cersei's suffering has begun with the death's of Joffrey, Tywin, Myrcella, and I'm sure eventually Tommen.  LF is walking around without a care.  I want him alive until near the end, but I want him paying for what he's done.  I want Sansa to know the depth of his treachery.  I want her to know that LF put the downfall of the Starks into action.  I want him to know that she knows.  And I want her to be part of his punishment and/or death.  I wouldn't be too said if LF were the last person Ramsay flays. 

4 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I actually liked the bits at the Wall. Davos is just all kinds of awesome and I loved that he asked Mel to leave. I also liked that she left without complaint. In the books we've seen that she is not a cruel person and does have empathy for others even as she is pursuing her single-minded goals. She keeps Devon? by her side because she doesn't want Davos to lose another son. In the show, it's obvious that Jon is utterly confused and when Davos points out that they need a minute, I think it's her humanity and empathy that we've seen glimpses of coming through. I'm not fond of her lack of conviction in Jon being AA (Stannis wasn't, so someone has to be), but that's minor.

I give the actress a lot of credit.  She's playing a totally different Melisandre since last season finale.  She's unsure, lost her faith, regretful.  Her body language, facial expressions, and voice are completely different.  She's also less pretty, and I'm not talking about when she removed her necklace.  I'm amazed that she's evoked some empathy from me.  I'm ashamed that I'm feeling for her after Shireen, but then I felt for Cersei during her walk of shame.  The actors are that good.

26 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Could make for some interesting dialog.

Sam:  "You broke your vows."

Jon:  "I'm not."

Sam:  "'Night falls, and now my watch begins.  It shall not end until my death.'  You're not dead."

Jon: "I'm not now, but I was."

Sam:  "You were what?"

Jon: "Dead."

Sam:  "You were dead?"

Jon: "I got better."

Jon:  "That little bastard stabbed me in the heart.  It hurt.  Then I woke up and Tormund insulted my pecker."

[huahaha]

14 hours ago, Dewey Decimate said:

Arya's story feels soooo drawn out; the Hound reference was the best part. And now I'm also a little curious about the true origins of her ugly-apron-colleague-in-arms. She seemed to react to Arya's reference to Walder Frey. Could she be one of the bajillions of daughters/granddaughters?

Just rewatched, and I think the reaction to the name Walder Frey is just a confusing cut. 

In one scene, Arya and the other girl are fighting, and Arya is left on the ground bloody. The other girl walks out but turns around surprised when she hears Arya get up. Arya eventually wins the fight.

At the same time, we can hear Arya telling her list to the other girl. When Arya finishes the list, the other girl flatly asks if that's all, but she doesn't otherwise react. Arya's narrative plays as the show cuts back and forth between scenes.

I suppose the show writers could be hinting at the other girl's past, but she doesn't visibly react to what Arya says.

Edited May 9, 2016 by huahaha

[RedheadZombie]

38 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

Well, what do you think Robert Baratheon would have done if he discovered that Lyanna had left intentionally and had married Rhaegar?

I think he'd refuse to believe it, and killed the baby.  He would probably have killed the baby regardless because it was Targaryen.

[lucindabelle]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Regarding Shaggydog being alive--maybe this is grasping at straws but shouldn't Ghost and Summer have been howling? They'd know if their brother was dead. I guess it's probably asking too much for the showrunners to include a mention of the direwolves being disturbed but I'm hoping maybe they weren't shown howling or we didn't get a mention of it because it wasn't really Shaggydog. 

Rickon did look pretty broken up about it, but I haven't given up hope completely. I think some compelling arguments have been made.

very very good point.

Animals know. We had a scare that our old (20 years!) cat had crawled off to die when she wasn't in her usual center-of-couch-facing-tv I sleep all day spot. BUT. The other two cats were all la la, gimme some food, here's a sunny spot, want to play? And from experience I know that when a cat of the household is in trouble they react. Turned out older cat had crawled into closet to take a nap on a camel hair coat that had fallen down and didn't see anyh particular reason to get up. When she did, she had dinner, used the litter box and was all, "what?"

Re Tower of Joy.

For some reason I don't think Lyanna was just kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. I know this puts me out on a limb but I think there are hints that the relationship was mutual. Which would really be something no Stark would want to admit.

Of course, I could be wrong, but the whole "psycho kidnaps woman, thinks it's love, etc." is so... predictable. I want there to be a bigger mystery.

[AnnaMayWong]

                                                                        The Flashbacks are both informative and fascinating (that swordfight choreography was aces❗).      

                                                                          I enjoy Sam and Gilly's Tale.  

                                                                                           A GIRL is still one of my favorite characters. However, A Writer and A Director/Showrunner desperately need to get to steppin' UP on the Arya Storyline.    

 

                                                    With the exception of several episodes in Season 1, Danaerys has bored me. She really has done so. Notwithstanding the dragons, the only aspect of interest is in showing people who possess something other than the considered stereotypical Westeros 'look'--physically, culturally,..

Edited May 9, 2016 by BookElitist
Inept use of format

[Haleth]

12 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Regarding Shaggydog being alive--maybe this is grasping at straws but shouldn't Ghost and Summer have been howling? They'd know if their brother was dead. I guess it's probably asking too much for the showrunners to include a mention of the direwolves being disturbed but I'm hoping maybe they weren't shown howling or we didn't get a mention of it because it wasn't really Shaggydog. 

And maybe it's just bad writing.  (My guess.)

[AnnaMayWong]

I hope the Sparrows peck to death Cersei's smug, sadistic, selfish, sorry-ass (and, Jaime's selfish child-abuse[ing] sanctioning self can join her).           ..........                             So, I shall, indeed, ?"...keep my eyes on the Sparrow...yeah, yeah, yeah."?    

 

 I do believe that it's time for all to call:                       1-800-save-a-STARK.  

 

 Hallooo, Ramsey, your suffering and demise is required. NOW❗  

                                                                                     Ah, Ser Aliser, the rigid sureness of the deliberately intellectually stunted and weak-witted.      

                                                                                       It would behoove The North to ingest some Gingko Biloba, and, then rally around Jon and The Starks et al.

 

 

Please ignore the  HORIZONTAL lines crossing out the statements in my ABOVE⬆ post. Don't know how that occurred.

[glowbug]

2 hours ago, mac123x said:

I think that's open to interpretation.  Varys says "treat them gently".  Not sure how having their tongues removed could be considered "gentle".  "If they kept their tongues" could mean "if they hold their tongues" i.e., didn't talk.  Plus it's a fractured conversation overheard by a 10 year old who didn't know the context. 

ETA:

Bronn was on the ship with Jaime that left Dorne.  They had that godawful scene with the Sand Snakes where Tyene told him what he needed.  I didn't see if he was on the boat with Jaime when he was bring Myrcella's corpse to shore.

Just to be clear I wasn't saying it was definitive proof. I was just quoting what led people to believe that Varys cut out their tongues. I agree that it's ambiguous with regard to cutting out their tongues but it's less ambiguous on the point of them knowing how to read and write.

[Neko]

I thought the fight at the Tower of Joy was okay.  Not great, not terrible, just okay. *shrugs*

I love comparing the King's Landing scenes from the earlier seasons and the KL scenes from this season.  The aftermath of Joffrey's reign, Tywin's death, and Cersei's dumbass decisions is evident; it's not as safe to be in the capital as it was during Robert's reign, and the place is practically dead compared to the way it was before.  It used to be a bustling, busy city, now it's practically a graveyard. 

Jon leaving the Night's Watch was a beautiful thing, but I couldn't help but feel a little bad for Sam, who knows nothing about it and still believes he is going to the Citadel in part to help Jon.  I have a soft spot for Sam and Gilly, I want those two crazy kids to make it.  Oh, well, it's not like Sam becoming a maester is a bad thing, by any means.  Even with Jon no longer at the Wall, it's a good move for him.

I think Howland Reed was finally introduced not because Jon and Meera are twins (too "Star Wars" for this series), but so Bran can find him and learn the truth about what went down at the Tower of Joy.  I don't think Bloodraven is going to tell him or show him with a flashback, I think that's something Bran will have to discover on his own.  And Howland Reed is the only person still living who can tell him about what happened, so there you go.

I have nothing to say about Tyrion in Meereen.  It's disappointing that Peter Dinklage has been reduced to the comic relief character.  Give him something to do.

[kittykat]

1 hour ago, mac123x said:

Could make for some interesting dialog.

Sam:  "You broke your vows."

Jon:  "I'm not."

Sam:  "'Night falls, and now my watch begins.  It shall not end until my death.'  You're not dead."

Jon: "I'm not now, but I was."

Sam:  "You were what?"

Jon: "Dead."

Sam:  "You were dead?"

Jon: "I got better."

Hee!  Any response of "I got better" when referring to mortal wounds will never stop being funny.

Quote

Just to take a moment...I have to say I find the posts here on the GoT portion of PTV to be some of the more intelligent and thoughtful, as well as fun.  I raise a glass of Arbor gold to you all.

I raise a glass of Summerwine as well.  It's well articulate posters like you all (and those from the TWoP days of yore) that make me avoid Facebook and Buzzfeed comments like the Red Death.

With rumors of the Tullys and Freys to make an appearence, I'm hopeful that we will still get Jaime to go to the Riverlands.  Kevan and Olenna clearly want to break the Twinlliance apart so Kevan may be the one to send Jaime if/when the Blackfish resurfaces as a way to split them up.  But there still needs to be a way for Jaime to turn on Cersei, maybe a scene with Lancel.  Tyrion was the catalyst in the book with his "she's fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleback and Moon Boy for all I know."  But that got cut out of the show probably because Moon Boy and the Kettleblacks were cut as well.  The problem is that THAT is the moment that haunts Jamie when he finally splits from her running that line in his head hundreds of times.  It's his "where do whores go."   Then again, we have seven episodes to go this season so we have time to set this all up.

I too am wondering about the wolves not howling if it truly was Shaggy.  With Bran learning about the Stark past and present I'm wondering if he'll get a vision of Rickon at Winterfell as Ramsay's hostage and that will compel him to go back South of the wall believing that it's his fault for sending him away.  Part of just really really wants Jon, Sansa, Bran and Rickon ending up together having taken back Winterfell

[jcin617]

Thinking about it some more, I'm wondering whether the real set-up is Osha, not Rickon.   Smalljon bringing only Osha would mean nothing to Ramsay, but bringing Rickon does.   So while Ramsay is distracted by Rickon, Osha has been snuck in as the real threat.   At least, something like that is what I'm hoping.

[Dev F]

35 minutes ago, Haleth said:

And maybe it's just bad writing.  (My guess.)

Why is it bad writing? The show has portrayed the direwolves as being sensitive to the distress of their owners, but I don't recall them showing particular sensitivity to each other's distress. They don't react when Ned kills Lady or when Grey Wind is shot down, and Summer only reacts to Ghost being trapped by the mutineers at Craster's keep when Bran is warged into him and he literally hears Ghost cry out. So why would we expect the wolves to react when Shaggydog is beheaded hundreds of miles away?

I'm highly skeptical of the notion that this is some sort of trick on the Umbers' part. First of all, even if the prop the show uses doesn't look big enough to be a direwolf head, clearly within the story Ramsey is supposed to be convinced, and I doubt that he would fail to notice if they substituted a regular wolf's head for a giant direwolf head. And what sort of ridiculous 3-D chess must the Umbers be playing if their secret plan involves handing the young and vulnerable heir to the Stark legacy over to the vicious usurper they're supposed to be protecting him from?

I think it's much more likely that the Umbers are doing exactly what they say they're doing: handing Rickon over to the Boltons to demonstrate that they're not playing any treacherous games, so the Boltons will help them beat back the new hordes of wildlings.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Dev F

[jcin617]

I think the problem is this sort of double-cross / betrayal has become de rigeur for the story.  It would be nice if for once someone was actually a step ahead of the bad guys.  Especially since the story should be starting to reach some climaxes.

[Haleth]

5 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Why is it bad writing?

I mean the whole storyline is bad writing.  Super Ramsey's Stark hostage escapes and a mustache twirling henchman conveniently pops up with a New! and Improved! Stark hostage.  I'll be very surprised if this is how it plays out in the book.  (That is, if we ever see the book.)

[Avaleigh]

8 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Why is it bad writing? The show has portrayed the direwolves as being sensitive to the distress of their owners, but I don't recall them showing particular sensitivity to each other's distress. They don't react when Ned kills Lady or when Grey Wind is shot down, and Summer only reacts to Ghost being trapped by the mutineers at Craster's keep when Bran is warged into him and he literally hears Ghost cry out. So why would we expect the wolves to react when Shaggydog is beheaded hundreds of miles away?

Now you have me doubting whether or not the wolves howled when Lady and Grey Wind died in the books. I can't recall but I thought that Summer and Shaggydog knew when Lady had been killed. I can't recall if Ghost howled after Lady but I remember Jon wondering if Ghost would howl when he died and him thinking back to the wolves howling after Bran's fall. 

I was hopeful but acknowledged that I might be grasping. 

I just really like the idea of Sansa inheriting Shaggydog if Rickon ends up not making it out of this season alive.

[kittykat]

The wolves did howl after Lady and Grey Wind died.  They had gotten word of Lady's death by raven but when Grey Wind and the RW had happened Bran was stowed away in the Nightfort and when Summer started howling, Bran had noted that Summer had not howled that way since Lady had been killed and thus he assumed that one of the other wolves had been killed.  I believe he hears one of the other wolves in the distance, either Ghost or Shaggy, which leads him to assume that Grey Wind was the likely victim.

Edited May 9, 2016 by kittykat

[Mya Stone]

Never have I cheered for the death of a child like this. 

[Pogojoco]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Rhaegar using his best fighter to guard a woman that was never in any really danger shows just how stupid/arrogant that he was. I really want them to hurry up with the reveal so we can find out what the real importance of his parentage is. I hope it's not just something crown related.

The thing about Rhaeger is he had visions about three dragon riders being his children. His wife could only have two children, and Lyanna had the third. So there are spiritual/faith based reasons why he would have his guards protecting Lyanna (and presumably their child.) In addition to other, affection/love based reasons, if you believe that. (Which I pretty much do.) 

Quote

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

Tywin Lannister had Rhaeger's other children killed and Robert Baratheon rejoiced in their deaths. Robert hates Targaryens. He is still trying to kill the last ones in the first book, 13/14 years (more in the show) after he "won" the war. The threat to Lyanna's child was very real. I don't think he was that dumb or that arrogant. Protecting this child was something Lyanna believed in, too and it, in many ways, defined the rest of Ned's life.

Jon Snow, kind of a big deal. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Pogojoco
just added a thought

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

No, every time the visions get really revealing and interesting, the Raven has to say, "Time to go Bran, we can not be under the waves too long...".

I mean what the heck did we really find out here, that Ned lied to his son about his sword skills?  Next, we will learn that Ned caught a fish that is not nearly as big as he said it was.

I think what we found out is that Ned of the impeccable honor, was not as honorable as his sons thought - taking full credit for Dayne's death. Even with all the lies he was spinning about Lyanna, surely being honest about the fight wouldn't have made much difference.  Bran seeing this not only changes his perspective on his father, but also helps him grow up and question.

Come to think of it, the idea of seeing things from different perspectives is threaded through the episode. Varys says it explicitly; the lead Kal's widow schools Dany; the small court decides to leave instead of suffer Cersei's present (and Cersei is reminded she's not actually the queen); the religious leader spins a reasonable sounding yet warped perspective to Tommen. To Arya literally gives up her own perspective.

And then there's Ollie, who participated in a despicable thing, and yet - I can't hate him. From his perspective, which isn't particularly difficult to understand, it was entirely justified. Did he deserve his punishment - yeah, probably. But I didn't cheer like I did when Joffery died.

For a second, I thought perhaps there would be further punishment of the hanged men - that their bodies would be tossed on the other side of the wall and not burned, so they'd become wights. But then, that would just make more to fight, wouldn't it?

[Dev F]

25 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Now you have me doubting whether or not the wolves howled when Lady and Grey Wind died in the books. I can't recall but I thought that Summer and Shaggydog knew when Lady had been killed. I can't recall if Ghost howled after Lady but I remember Jon wondering if Ghost would howl when he died and him thinking back to the wolves howling after Bran's fall.

I believe that in the books the wolves are shown to be telepathically connected to one another and upset by their siblings' distress, but I don't think it's something that was carried over into the show.

[lucindabelle]

Apart from everything else, the bleakness is so unrelenting it's boring. A clever trick on Ramsay and Shaggydog being alive would be much, much more interesting!

[Dev F]

52 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I mean the whole storyline is bad writing.  Super Ramsey's Stark hostage escapes and a mustache twirling henchman conveniently pops up with a New! and Improved! Stark hostage.  I'll be very surprised if this is how it plays out in the book.  (That is, if we ever see the book.)

Well, like I mentioned upthread, I thought this episode did a good job of characterizing the Smalljon so he didn't seem like just a mustache twirler. Though there are other aspects of the Bolton story line I would be less eager to defend. :p

I agree that this is probably not what's going to happen in the books -- I assume that in the show Rickon is there to streamline the elaborate "I have Mance Rayder and I want my wife back" scenario from Dance. But the fact GRRM named Rickon's direwolf Shaggydog has always left me with the suspicion that his will be a long, complicated journey that ultimately amounts to nothing.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Dev F

[Black Knight]

34 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

I think what we found out is that Ned of the impeccable honor, was not as honorable as his sons thought - taking full credit for Dayne's death. Even with all the lies he was spinning about Lyanna, surely being honest about the fight wouldn't have made much difference.  Bran seeing this not only changes his perspective on his father, but also helps him grow up and question.

In the books, I remember Ned saying that he wouldn't have survived against Dayne if not for Howland Reed. I don't remember who he said it to, although I have a vague impression that it was Bran. But I do remember that he said it, and so I wasn't at all surprised when Reed stabbed Dayne in the back. But, I guess BookNed is a little different from ShowNed. (And BookNed may not have wanted to be more clear, outside of his own family, on the details for Reed's own sake - maybe he was worried another Dayne would go after Reed, who doesn't have Ned's rank or close friendship with the king to protect him.)

I liked the Tower of Joy scene mainly because it had dialogue from the books, and one thing that has really been lacking this season, in the wake of the TV show passing the books, is the dialogue.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Black Knight

[polyhymnia]

I have to watch this episode again because Mr. Poly was too chatty during parts of it and I missed dialogue in KL and on the ship of barf.  But as that really only seemed to be about Sam telling Gilly she was going to live with his family, probably not worth rewatching.  I wonder what his brother will think about it?  He might not be too keen on a bastard "nephew."  At least Gilly was smart enough to realize that was the lie they were going with.

The only scene I really hated was Tyrion + Missandei + GW.  They are all decent actors, give them a decent script.

I will just try and wait to see how the Rickon/Osha/Shaggydog plot develops.  It would certainly be playing against type if Ramsay was just nice to them both.  That could be the creepiest thing he has ever done.  I would love it if it were some deep plot by the Umbers but this show doesn't seem to like the tricky plots (see Dorne) in these later seasons.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

I have nothing to say about Tyrion in Meereen.  It's disappointing that Peter Dinklage has been reduced to the comic relief character.  Give him something to do.

Since this is the book talk thread, I'd take good-natured and optimistic Tyrion over the bitter, hateful, and abusive nightmare he was in ADWD any day. I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop and TV Tyrion to have some kind of psychotic break to get him on track with his Book Tyrion characterization, but given the way things are going I don't think Tyrion's going to have the luxury of having a total meltdown any time soon.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Eyes High

[Cherpumple]

3 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

Damn, we didn't get to see Thorne's face when he found out Jon was alive! I'll never forgive the writers for that!

I totally agree! This show really fails when it comes to the big reaction shots. We didn't see Sansa find out about the Red Wedding, nor Davos find out what really happened to Shireen, and now we didn't get to see the conspirators see Jon alive for the first time. That's what I was waiting for, and his whole resurrection was decidedly underwhelming for me.

I did love the name drop of the Hound in Arya's scene, and hope it means what we think it means. Can't wait to see him again!

I didn't really get anything out of the Tower of Joy scene in regards to Ned's character. I haven't read the books in a while, but I seem to recall that he was never particularly proud of the fact that he killed Arthur Dayne, and it certainly wasn't a badge of honour to him. This was a man he respected and admired, and if the circumstances were different he would have been proud to fight alongside him. To him, the death of this good man was another tragic example of all the destruction and casualties caused by the rebellion (and the Mad King's reign), and the tough choices they all had to make to get through it. And as leader of the rescue party to the Tower, I can see how he would feel responsible for Dayne's death, no matter how the actual swordplay panned out. With this in my head, I really didn't see where they were going with the whole "Ned lied to protect his honor" idea. 

[Arnella]

The scene that bothered me (yeah, not the hanging or Rickon's danger or how boring Arya's story has been) was the small council.  

Ser Kevan is NOT Tywin ( in SO many ways) so how does he think that insulting Cersei is going to go? She has a freakin' monster for a lapdog. 

Olenna got good quips in but what about her grandchildren rotting in prison??  They need to unite against the Faith Militant NOW before they get any stronger and before Margary and Loras are sent out naked.

Like all the stories, this one needs to move faster but this one has been languishing longer with zero developments and yet with so many characters that could be doing SOMETHING.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Arnella

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

I have to watch this episode again because Mr. Poly was too chatty during parts of it and I missed dialogue in KL and on the ship of barf.  But as that really only seemed to be about Sam telling Gilly she was going to live with his family, probably not worth rewatching.  I wonder what his brother will think about it?  He might not be too keen on a bastard "nephew."  At least Gilly was smart enough to realize that was the lie they were going with.

The only scene I really hated was Tyrion + Missandei + GW.  They are all decent actors, give them a decent script.

I will just try and wait to see how the Rickon/Osha/Shaggydog plot develops.  It would certainly be playing against type if Ramsay was just nice to them both.  That could be the creepiest thing he has ever done.  I would love it if it were some deep plot by the Umbers but this show doesn't seem to like the tricky plots (see Dorne) in these later seasons.

I rewatched 4 times already and I forgot if I saw it here or at WOTW but someone brought up the idea that Gilly may be hinting she's pregnant with Sam's child.

I'm leaning that way.

[Alapaki]

Quote

For a second, I thought perhaps there would be further punishment of the hanged men - that their bodies would be tossed on the other side of the wall and not burned, so they'd become wights. But then, that would just make more to fight, wouldn't it?

Funny, because during a particularly tedious drive this afternoon it occurred to me that that's precisely what Jon should have at least threatened after their final words.  If for no other reason than to put the lie to Thorne's phony self-righteous defense of the NW.

"You want 'your rest'? Then you'd better hope I don't toss your bodies over the Wall and consign to being an undead zombie who will never rest."  That would be justice after all, since that's precisely the fate that Thorne was happy to condemn the Wildlings to.  Let him beg to be burned, and then ask why Jon should deny the Wildlings salvation from the Others.

I mean, there's a FUCKING ZOMBIE ARMY that's unstoppable by any mere mortals, and why the entire NW can't see that every group of mortals the Others run into only serve to grow their ranks is something I've never understood.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

I totally agree! This show really fails when it comes to the big reaction shots. We didn't see Sansa find out about the Red Wedding, nor Davos find out what really happened to Shireen, and now we didn't get to see the conspirators see Jon alive for the first time. That's what I was waiting for, and his whole resurrection was decidedly underwhelming for me.

I did love the name drop of the Hound in Arya's scene, and hope it means what we think it means. Can't wait to see him again!

I didn't really get anything out of the Tower of Joy scene in regards to Ned's character. I haven't read the books in a while, but I seem to recall that he was never particularly proud of the fact that he killed Arthur Dayne, and it certainly wasn't a badge of honour to him. This was a man he respected and admired, and if the circumstances were different he would have been proud to fight alongside him. To him, the death of this good man was another tragic example of all the destruction and casualties caused by the rebellion (and the Mad King's reign), and the tough choices they all had to make to get through it. And as leader of the rescue party to the Tower, I can see how he would feel responsible for Dayne's death, no matter how the actual swordplay panned out. With this in my head, I really didn't see where they were going with the whole "Ned lied to protect his honor" idea. 

OK, as for Sansa your eyes and ears had to be closed or covered, Joffery is gloating about Robb and Cat's death and how he is going to present the wolf head or skin to Sansa, Tyrion said Sansa's not Joff's to torment any longer, cut to Sansa in her room by a window Tyrion enters says Sansa! zoom in tears are falling like rain.

A scene Shae is trying to get Sansa to eat, she tells Tyrion she needs to eat, Tyrion trys to talk to her, Sansa describes through tears how she lies awake at night thinking how Robb and her mother died, sewing Greywinds head on his body and cutting her mother's throat to the bone and the body tossed into a river.

Promos show Davos will find out, so your jumping the gun, patience is a virtue; though not many have it when it comes to this series.

Edited May 10, 2016 by GrailKing

[Minneapple]

Quote

I think what we found out is that Ned of the impeccable honor, was not as honorable as his sons thought - taking full credit for Dayne's death. Even with all the lies he was spinning about Lyanna, surely being honest about the fight wouldn't have made much difference.  Bran seeing this not only changes his perspective on his father, but also helps him grow up and question.

My guess is that Ned, not being the chatty sort, told his children something like, "We fought Arthur Dayne and killed him." And the children, eager to make their father into a hero, picked up the story and developed it into Ned killing Arthur himself. Ned is not above lying by omission (see the biggest lie he's told in Jon) if he thinks it's honorable in some way. So he lied to keep Lyanna's promise and perhaps he lied about Reed for...whatever reason. Perhaps Howland didn't want anyone to know his role in killing Dayne. 

I still think Howland Reed is one of the more fascinating book characters just because of what he knows.

[Alapaki]

I can't remember, is this the first time we've heard Melisandre refer to "The Lord" and not "The Lord of Light"?  And, if so, any significance to that vis a vis losing her religion?

[SeanC]

25 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

OK, as for Sansa your eyes and ears had to be closed or covered, Joffery is gloating about Robb and Cat's death and how he is going to present the wolf head or skin to Sansa, Tyrion said Sansa's not Joff's to torment any longer, cut to Sansa in her room by a window Tyrion enters says Sansa! zoom in tears are falling like rain.

A scene Shae is trying to get Sansa to eat, she tells Tyrion she needs to eat, Tyrion trys to talk to her, Sansa describes through tears how she lies awake at night thinking how Robb and her mother died, sewing Greywinds head on his body and cutting her mother's throat to the bone and the body tossed into a river.

They were referring to the moment where she was actually told about it.

[GrailKing]

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

They were referring to the moment where she was actually told about it.

Well then that's all they get, because in book her crying is all behind closed door and I believe she's told off book.

It's a problem for the writers, in this case they followed the book on Sansa, yet it wasn't enough for people.

Kind of hard with a stoic character like Sansa

Edited May 10, 2016 by GrailKing
Add stuff

[Sunnydayman]

34 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

My guess is that Ned, not being the chatty sort, told his children something like, "We fought Arthur Dayne and killed him." And the children, eager to make their father into a hero, picked up the story and developed it into Ned killing Arthur himself. Ned is not above lying by omission (see the biggest lie he's told in Jon) if he thinks it's honorable in some way. So he lied to keep Lyanna's promise and perhaps he lied about Reed for...whatever reason. Perhaps Howland didn't want anyone to know his role in killing Dayne. 

I still think Howland Reed is one of the more fascinating book characters just because of what he knows.

Telling the world you stabbed a great man in the back is not something you want as part of history.  Jamie killed a mad man and was vilified by other so-called honorable men.

We like Howland Reed because he is pretty much a blank slate.  

[Macbeth]

Tyrion's storyline has been sucked into the suckitude that is Dany's.  We all must suffer.  Although he did have a good point re: conversations. He is trying to get Dany's closest advisors to think outside the box of automatically taking up arms and fighting.  In a short period of time, Varys and Tyrion have found answers and corrected Dany's mistake of chaining her dragons.  When the Queen is away, shit gets done.

Osha being with Rickon, means there is a plot afoot.  No reason for her to be there if the Umbers were really trying to win over Ramsey, she would have been killed before hand.  Too much of a wild card.  On rewatch, I thought Osha was closely watching Rickon to see if he  was properly playing his part, and she was definetely eyefucking Ramsey.  Ramsey will die at her hands; the only question is will Osha survive.

Who would think the show would drag out Dany's storyline longer than the books. In the books, She was with Drogon when she meets up again with the Drothaki.   On the show, who will rescue Dany first, Drogon or Patient Zero?  And will Dany's army then be infected?  Of course Jon had to quit NW, he is waiting for Dany  to get her shit together.

[Dewey Decimate]

5 hours ago, BookElitist said:

With the exception of several episodes in Season 1, Danaerys has bored me. She really has done so. Notwithstanding the dragons, the only aspect of interest is in showing people who possess something other than the considered stereotypical Westeros 'look'--physically, culturally,..

Ah, and what a look it is! Bravo to the casting agents who manage to find the hottest damn men to fill the Dothraki ranks.

But then, Sayid was always my favorite Lostie, so maybe I just have a type.

[dr pepper]

so is the Ghost of Westeros Past really teasing Bran about his aunt? Or is he teasing us?

[screamin]

22 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Benjen is not ahead of Ned to be Lord of Winterfell. Ned is the second born son and older than Benjen so he's Lord of the North. 

Ice would've been in Rickard Stark's power, and therefore would have fallen into Aerys' hands when Rickard was executed. I can fanwank that Ned was too impatient after King's Landing fell to wait for King Bob to track down who had Ice and give it back to him. :)

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

My guess is that Ned, not being the chatty sort, told his children something like, "We fought Arthur Dayne and killed him." And the children, eager to make their father into a hero, picked up the story and developed it into Ned killing Arthur himself. Ned is not above lying by omission (see the biggest lie he's told in Jon) if he thinks it's honorable in some way. So he lied to keep Lyanna's promise and perhaps he lied about Reed for...whatever reason. Perhaps Howland didn't want anyone to know his role in killing Dayne. 

I still think Howland Reed is one of the more fascinating book characters just because of what he knows.

My guess is that is about how all legends of war "heroes" go.  The reality is almost always less glory and more gory.

 

I like Howland because of the crannogmen and The Neck.  I've always thought that area would be crucial, but, apparently not.

[SeanC]

Ned in the books always told his children that he would have been killed if not for Howland.

[dr pepper]

Quote

long-overdue process of balancing the show's nudity scales

Not even! It's the frontal balance that needs work.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Ser Davos' counsel to Reanimated Jon Snow was so good.  Even the rhythm of their back and forths was lyrical.  And that message  -- to keep going in the face of failure -- was so precisely what Jon needed to hear.  And strategically sound in these circumstances.

It's also the message of every civil rights rally I've attended, for 40 years.  A highly pragmatic rallying cry for difficult causes, and long struggles.

[Umbelina]

It wasn't a bad episode, and hopefully we will quit spinning in place soon.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Umbelina

[screamin]

7 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

For some reason I don't think Lyanna was just kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. I know this puts me out on a limb but I think there are hints that the relationship was mutual. Which would really be something no Stark would want to admit.

Oh, I'm sure she initially went off with Rhaegar willingly - but to me, the Kingsguard being willing to kill Ned before they'll let him talk to his sister smacks more of them holding her prisoner under Rhaegar's orders than of Lyanna still being willingly a guest at the tower. I'd guess that the bloom went off the romance after the horrid consequences to Lyanna's father and brother, and at some time Rhaegar ordered his KG to keep her in the tower and let no one come near her - regardless of what her wishes might be on either of those points. I can envision charismatic, loony Rhaegar being sweet enough to initially seduce Lyanna and unyielding and obsessive enough in his pursuit of 'the third head of the dragon' not to let Lyanna out of his possession once things started going sour...

[GrailKing]

We may all be very surprised if they actually tell us the truth, we may learn of mom and dad, will we learn the true how?

[Pogojoco]

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

We may all be very surprised if they actually tell us the truth, we may learn of mom and dad, will we learn the true how?

There is no way. They are all dead. All we know is that Ned didn't have ill feelings towards Rhaeger.