S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[DarkRaichu]

Damn it show.  Rickon at Ramsey's ? The only thing I do not want to see is Ramsey converting him to Reek 2.0 (you know this was what Ramsey had in mind).

Methinks Jon Snow is going north to face the WW, not south

The only good thing about KL part was Olenna

I actually liked blind!Arya.  She made it through the stick training blind, why gave her eyesight back?  She was more of a badass without it.  Also, wouldn't it be more poetic when she reunite with her sister but can never see Sansa?

[DrSpaceman73]

I assumed Jon Snow was going to take the Wildlings south to take back Winterfell.  (Which, by the way, is kind of a crap place in terms of a castle or place to live compared to all the other castle and homes we have seen all over Westeros) But maybe he will go attack the White Walkers instead.  A bold move, considering how small their chances are of winning.  Maybe I am just hoping he goes to Winterfell because I really want to see him kill that arrogant psychopath Ramsay Bolton.  Plus it would be interesting to have two bastard son's fighting one another for control. 

 

Not really sure the point of all these Ned flashbacks, though I find them interesting.  I assume we will learn the backstory about his sister and her death.  And potentially more about Jon Snow's mother and his heritage. 

No Dorne this episode, that's a plus. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by DrSpaceman73

[marcee]

I don't really see Arya taking her newly-acquired training and face-wearing talents on the road to pursue revenge because if the training has actually worked and she truly is no one, as evidenced by her non-death-post-fountain-drink then she has no one to take revenge on. She has no history and, therefore, has no enemies. And as far as I can tell, these assassins don't kill for their own ends. I do hope she can use her new skills to protect the people she cares for - but I wonder if she'll even be "allowed" to care for her family since they're technically no longer her family.

[AuntieMame]

52 minutes ago, islandgal140 said:

It is amazing how Cersei's children turned out. One would make Satan look like a saint and the other two are weak, sweet gullible children. You just know Tommen, that sweet summer child, is buying the High Sparrow's shit hook line and sinker. In two weeks Tommen will be bald-headed, beating a tambourine and selling bean pies down at King Landings docks.  

My heart can't take anymore Stark suffering. Here I was thinking that the Starks would stop collecting all these 'Ls' in the Game, and that ass Umber delivers poor Rickon to that psycho Ramsey. 

I would love Umber handing Rickon off to be some kind of ruse but I can't see how it is. Unless either (1) 1,000 soldiers are gonna come tumbling out of him like he is some human Trojan horse; or (2) they trained him and Osha to be two killing machines; I don't see how giving what they believe to be the last remaining male Stark to a man he knows just murdered his own daddy, his stepmom and her minutes out the womb newborn in order to wrest power of the North into his own hands is some kind of strategic move. 

The North remembers my ass. The North has Alzheimers. 

gods, I hate Walder Frey. I do wonder if the killing of his daughter and grandchild severs the alliance. I wouldn't mind if Ramsey's last act of sadism involved giving Frey the flayed man treatment. Please make it so. 

Dany's story continues to disappoint. However, I didn't think the Khalessi retirement home was all that bad. Frankly, I was envisioning the Khalessi's of Great Khal's past were treated like the servants of Egyptian pharaohs - killed and entombed with their husbands or just entombed alive. So really it is just a Khalessi Shady Pines. Could've have been worse.

Too bad Westeros doesn't have the Craiglist version of Missed Connections (something with ravens, I guess?) available for the ever just missing each other Starks. 

I liked the head khaleesi and her telling Dany that they all thought that their husbands would conquer the world. They seem to have some power as advisors to current khals. 

Overall though, I think that the writers have lost the path to the ending. I wrote a long list about this over in book talk, but it seems to me that they have no clue how to get from here to whatever end Martin gave them. 

Seems Arya isn't the only nobody who remembers old enemies.

[Timetoread]

36 minutes ago, shockermolar said:

Actually, the show's been about 500% closer and clearer to foreshadowing Jon Snow's parentage than the books have. 

One of the points of last season was that Dany has little to no control over Drogon, which is the only dragon large enough to ride. And I don't see that she's necessarily being humbled - the Dothraki don't care about her titles. And at this point she has an army that is fast being decimated, has lost all previously conquered cities except Mereen (and has at most a tenuous hold on that one), and she's the daughter of a deposed King of a kingdom that the Dothraki are barely aware of and don't care much about, a kingdom that's currently in tatters.

To the Dothraki the only respect she's earned was when she ate the stallion's heart.

The show hasn't said anything about Jon Snow's parentage other than that he is a "Snow".  And all they have shown of Ned's sister is a girl riding a horse and yet the boards erupted into orgasms over it.  I was like, "oh I guess this character is somebody in the books.".  And now after this episode, I can pretty much stop watching since the board has basically told me what to expect from the girl on the horse and her connection to Jon - even though just watching her ride, I never made that connection.

I was kidding about the dragons.  I'm just tired of this show thinking that four seasons of the same scene is even remotely interesting.  Dany walks through the desert must have been the entirety of her contract.

I wasn't talking about the Dothraki caring about her titles, I was talking about the SHOW's constant need to bring her down, yet forcing Jon Snow down our throat as some uber hero.  I honestly didn't care at all if he stayed dead and he woke up with that same dumb look on his face.

I really am just about done with this show.  I almost think that you HAD to have read the books for it to be interesting at all.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Says: Treat Yo' Self

Walk away from your job! Refuse to kneel! Fart in a meeting! No one's going to judge. (Actually, somebody might.)

[Dobian]

This actually so far is the most engaging season for me in a long time.  It feels like plot threads are actually coming together and you can see potential end games in sight.  The only negative for me, as some people have said, is the Dany plot.  Her whole Moses Wandering the Desert schtick has gone on long enough.  It's time for her damn dragons to rescue her from her latest setback and fly her back to Westeros.  They should have a scene where Dany flies on one dragon, Jorah on another, and Varys and Tyrion on the third one.  Maybe that's the last scene of the season.  That would be cool.

[peggy06]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

It's still speculation at this point. 

It is very clear that many people posting are posting with book knowledge, i.e., when did they ever mention the Tower of Joy in the actual episode? Yet half the commenters here write as if they're anticipating that scene. If this is all speculation, maybe there should be a speculation thread.

[halkatla]

A show is quite boring when "a girl" delivers the most entertaining scene.

Of course seeing the little brother Stark again means that he´s stuck with RB, that´s scary but I´m still hopeful that RB will have his karma delivered soon, in the form of a wilding girl perhaps?

I didn´t see a direwolf get killed, that´s not nice to hear about :( Why does the show have to go there? Why?

I feel like Denaerys´ story of joining a crazy widows club is totally useless and just waists time. I want Tyrion, dragons and a story moving forwards.

[DarkRaichu]

18 minutes ago, Dobian said:

They should have a scene where Dany flies on one dragon, Jorah on another, and Varys and Tyrion on the third one.  Maybe that's the last scene of the season.  That would be cool.

There was barely enough room for Dany on largest dragon. I could see Tyrion riding one, but NOT BOTH Varys and Tyrion, for obvious reason :D

[Stancold]

39 minutes ago, marcee said:

I don't really see Arya taking her newly-acquired training and face-wearing talents on the road to pursue revenge because if the training has actually worked and she truly is no one, as evidenced by her non-death-post-fountain-drink then she has no one to take revenge on. She has no history and, therefore, has no enemies. And as far as I can tell, these assassins don't kill for their own ends. I do hope she can use her new skills to protect the people she cares for - but I wonder if she'll even be "allowed" to care for her family since they're technically no longer her family.

I think it's open ended whether the Faceless want her to get rid of the kill list.  Before Jaqen H'ghar sailed from Westeros, he suggested to Arya that by joining them she could take care of her list, and while it's possible he was selling her a load of BS, I think it's possible the three people on her current list (Ser Gregor, Walder Frey and especially Cersei) are high value targets for an organization that can command huge payments for killing powerful people, as indicated by Littlefinger to Robert back in the first season).

I think it all comes down to how they operate -- do they treat the requests of a poor man to kill a greedy loanshark the same as the bidding of a rich lord to kill a wealthy rival who is threatening to overrun his lands and kill his children?  I'm not convinced they are going to end up carrying equal weight for the Faceless Men.

[Stancold]

In the scene with Tommen, I was glad to see that someone finally brought a big time guard when meeting the High Sparrow, instead of unsuspectingly inserting themselves in the middle of a bunch of armed fanatics without any backup.

On the other hand, I was surprised that Cersei and Jaime didn't make sure Tommen went with someone to keep him on point.  From last episode, Cersei knew that Tommen was champing at the bit to go after the High Sparrow, and she also knows that he is a wily, slippery character, and that Tommen isn't the kind of guy who can deal with someone like him.  Now it's being suggested that the High Sparrow is going to wheedle his way into Tommen's brain, and Tommen will be his tool instead of Cersei's. 

The Cersei of the first season was an enjoyably devious creature, but for quite a while now she seems incapable of hatching a scheme or outmaneuvering anyone.  The fun of Tyrion taking her down a peg when he became the King's Hand was because she was so capable in the first season, although far from perfect.  For a long time now she hasn't had anything close to a plan besides sending Frankenstein's Monster after the villagers.

[Puffaroo]

I could swear I saw Tormond on a TV commercial within the last couple of weeks.  A phone service, maybe?

[Puffaroo]

That One Guy:  "I don't usually get it when people say they'll quit the show after something bad happens, but don't kill Osha, okay? Enough with the gratuitous violence against  women. We get it already. Evil patriarchy, crapsack world, blah blah blah. Please don't go there. Please?"

He doesn't know who he's messing with if he messes with Osha.  She could be his undoing.

[izabella]

27 minutes ago, Stancold said:

I think it's open ended whether the Faceless want her to get rid of the kill list.  Before Jaqen H'ghar sailed from Westeros, he suggested to Arya that by joining them she could take care of her list, and while it's possible he was selling her a load of BS, I think it's possible the three people on her current list (Ser Gregor, Walder Frey and especially Cersei) are high value targets for an organization that can command huge payments for killing powerful people, as indicated by Littlefinger to Robert back in the first season).

Can you refresh my memory on when Littlefinger talked about the Faceless and giving them money for killing powerful people?  I can't remember anyone mentioning the Faceless, like, ever.  They seem to be in a world all their own.

[marcee]

1 hour ago, Timetoread said:

The show hasn't said anything about Jon Snow's parentage other than that he is a "Snow".  And all they have shown of Ned's sister is a girl riding a horse and yet the boards erupted into orgasms over it.  I was like, "oh I guess this character is somebody in the books.".  And now after this episode, I can pretty much stop watching since the board has basically told me what to expect from the girl on the horse and her connection to Jon - even though just watching her ride, I never made that connection.

Actually, depending on how avid a fan you are, there was plenty in the show to make the connection. I'm completely unspoiled and haven't read the books, but I found the thread when they were talking about Lyanna in the crypts (there was a scene where Cersei was complaining about how Robert always loved Lyanna more than her -- even after she was dead -- or something like that). I can't remember the exact conversation or even what season or episode - but when you're a superfan, you remember these things... know the quotes and the scenes and have the screencaps and it makes it easier to make the connections. But anyway, I found the thread in that scene and pulled on it in followup scenes - like when they were searching for all the "Baratheon blood" and were killing all the bastards... You had to wonder if there were any more of them out there... which harkened back to whether or not Robert ever slept with Lyanna and possibly had another bastard we didn't know about... and then there were further scenes during which everyone wondered why Ned cared so much about Jon Snow. And I feel like there were plenty of other side discussions about Ned's loyalty and honor, so it kind of made it hard to believe he would cheat. So yeah, there actually were a lot of dots to connect in the show and plenty of cause for this speculation.

Granted, that's not to say that talking about the "Tower of Joy" isn't an obvious book reference -- because what? I've never heard of the Tower of Joy so, yeah...people should be more careful - but as far as Snow's parentage, that speculation has been out there, with good reason, for a while and I was able to get there without any help.

Edited May 9, 2016 by marcee
grammar and stuff

[Stancold]

2 hours ago, islandgal140 said:

I would love Umber handing Rickon off to be some kind of ruse but I can't see how it is. Unless either (1) 1,000 soldiers are gonna come tumbling out of him like he is some human Trojan horse; or (2) they trained him and Osha to be two killing machines; I don't see how giving what they believe to be the last remaining male Stark to a man he knows just murdered his own daddy, his stepmom and her minutes out the womb newborn in order to wrest power of the North into his own hands is some kind of strategic move. 

The North remembers my ass. The North has Alzheimers. 

 

That's basically my take.  He has to know Ramsey is completely unreliable, and giving up his main bargaining chip at the very beginning of his negotiations is a baffling way to approach a guy he clearly doesn't respect and whose word he explictly doesn't trust.  He has to know Ramsey needs the Umbers to maintain his hold on the North -- why offer the extra gift? 

[izabella]

It seemed like the Umber dude was asking Ramsey for help in fighting the Wildling horde that Jon let through the Wall and that he expects to have to fight off being the northernmost House in the North.  He offered Rickon and Shaggy Dog's head in exchange for Ramsey's alignment against the Wildlings, as proof of his loyalty instead of bending the knee or whatever Ramsey wanted him to do.

These people have not heard of the White Walkers, so have no idea why Jon opened the gates to the Wildlings and are still in Wildling defese mode and thinking the Wildlings are the biggest thing they need to fear coming from beyond the Wall.

Edited May 9, 2016 by izabella

[DarkRaichu]

25 minutes ago, Stancold said:

That's basically my take.  He has to know Ramsey is completely unreliable, and giving up his main bargaining chip at the very beginning of his negotiations is a baffling way to approach a guy he clearly doesn't respect and whose word he explictly doesn't trust.  He has to know Ramsey needs the Umbers to maintain his hold on the North -- why offer the extra gift? 

This is a new generation of North as these lords are of similar age.  They are forging new alliances.  Umber said his dad died of old age before he had the chance to kill him. We knew what Ramsey did when the other lord watched him do it.

Or maybe all of them are just reckless and stupid

ETA: What izabella said

Edited May 9, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[annsterg]

Interesting that Ilyn Payne (tongue-less court executioner who beheaded Ned) used to be on Arya's kill list, but wasn't mentioned in this episode.

The litany used to start "Joffrey. Cersei. Ilyn Payne. The Hound..."

Pretty sure Ilyn Payne is still alive...(although IIRC, the actor is not or is sick or something?) but hasn't been seen for a while.

Edited May 9, 2016 by annsterg
adding stuff

[iMonrey]

I have to say the first two episodes of this season started off with much more action than we usually get at the beginning of the season, whereas this one felt more talky and uneventful, but given how well the season has started off as a whole I'm willing to give it a pass, so long as things start moving somewhere again next week. I'm not down with the idea of sitting through more talking and wandering around until episode nine, which has been the pattern since Season 2. 

As soon as we saw Umber at Winterfell I began wondering about Rikkon and Osha because I remembered that's where they went two seasons ago when they disappeared, and as soon as he brought in the two prisoners I knew that was going to be them. But when he lifted the sack off Rikkon's head I had to look for a minute and decide whether or not that was the same actor. It's been so long and he's grown so much.

Speaking of which, I get that they weren't going to have Sean Bean play Young Ned, and since I actually know what Sean Bean looked like at that age, it wasn't quite right. But I appreciate the effort the show put into finding someone who could maybe pass for a younger Sean Bean rather than just casting anyone and asking us to go for it.

Never in a million years would I have guessed I'd find Bran's scenes the most interesting but I'm really into these flashbacks/trips to the past.

Quote

And another bit of King's Landing business that I still don't understand - why the Lannister army doesn't just kill the Faith Militant.  Are they worried it would anger/incite the people against them?  The people hate them already, what would the murder of a hundred or so guys with shaved heads matter?

I really don't get this either. They don't even need the Lannister Army - don't they control the Kingsguard? Aren't there enough of them to arrest the High Sparrow and de-arm the Faith Militant?

[DarkRaichu]

23 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I really don't get this either. They don't even need the Lannister Army - don't they control the Kingsguard? Aren't there enough of them to arrest the High Sparrow and de-arm the Faith Militant?

High Sparrow & FM help the poor in KL.  If they are attacked head on, the poor would turn against the monarchs.  The poor outnumbers the Kingsguard

[RadiantAerynSun]

Well obviously something important is up in the tower, and since the war is basically over (as they mention the mad king and Rhaegar are dead) one would assume Ned is attempting to rescue his sister, who was being guarded by a last couple of loyal Targaryen guards. We know this attempt wasn't successful based on episode 1, but what we don't know is "why" as it was never said how/why Lyanna died during the kerfuffle for the throne. Based on the scream heard from the up the tower it's not a huge leap to assume Lyanna is what's up there and that she is in distress/danger of some sort.

[AnnaMayWong]

I enjoy Sam's and Gilly's Tale.  

The Flashbacks are both informative and fascinating (that swordfight choreography was aces❗).  

A GIRL is still one of my favorite characters. However, A Writer and A Director/Showrunner desperately need to get to steppin' UP on the Arya Storyline.  

With the exception of several episodes in Season 1, Danaerys has bored me. She really has done so. Notwithstanding the dragons, the only aspect of interest is in showing people who possess something other than the considered stereotypical Westeros 'look'--physically, culturally,...    

I hope that the Sparrows peck to death Cersei's smug, sadistic, selfish, sorry-ass (and, Jaime's selfish child-abuse[ing] sanctioning self can join her).  So, I shall, indeed, ?"...keep my eyes on the Sparrow...yeah yeah yeah.?

Edited May 10, 2016 by BookElitist

[annsterg]

I think the main reason that the king/Lannisters/Tyrells are not attacking the Sparrow and Faith Militant is because they are still holding Margaery and Loras. The fear would be that if the FM's complex were assaulted, that they might kill the prisoners. Tommen sure doesn't want to lose his wife, and the Tyrells surely do not want to lose a daughter/granddaughter, but more importantly, the HEIR to Highgarden. So they have to negotiate and wait for an opportunity to free the prisoners. If/When that happens...all bets are off.

BUT...since Cersei doesn't give a rat's ass about Margaery OR Loras, she might decide to escalate without concern for their safety.

[HumblePi]

3 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I don't understand that either. Imprisoning the Queen would be treason, so they should be able to destroy the FM no problem. Is it that they would be out-numbered? How many of those people are there? 

Tommen is going to totally fall for the High Sparrow's BS.

In the back of my mind I'm hoping that Tommen will emerge as a strong King and annihilate the High Sparrow and his followers. There has to be some justice eventually. And Margary may get a chance to kill the woman with the bell that can only repeat 'repent, repent'.

....an afterthought, why do we get to see a lot of the women full frontal nudity, like Cersei and others yet we're denied seeing Jon Snow full frontal penis? I'll cry sexism.  (Just sayin')

Edited May 9, 2016 by HumblePi

[iMonrey]

Quote

High Sparrow & FM help the poor in KL.  If they are attacked head on, the poor would turn against the monarchs.  The poor outnumbers the Kingsguard

The poor aren't armed, though. And the Faith Militant doesn't need to be disbanded or prevented from helping the poor. Their leader needs to be arrested and the FM need to be de-armed. It was Cersei who allowed them to be armed in the first place so this is a relatively new thing. I'd be interested to know how many members of the FM are armed at any given time, or are guarding wherever the hell Margaery and Loras are being held.

It seems like a relatively simple thing for Tommen, or Jamie, or someone, to march up to this place with the full backing of the Kingsguard (plus additional backup recruits, if necessary), place the High Sparrow under arrest, and demand the release of the Queen and her brother. Would the FM really have the forces necessary to prevent this or stop this? I can imagine there being a skirmish of some kind but it seems to me the FM would be outnumbered and easily out-maneuvered. The Kingsguard are supposed to be trained swordsmen - what kind of training have the FM had? They're supposed to be new at this.

[HumblePi]

3 hours ago, RadiantAerynSun said:

I thought the guy playing young Ned did an awesome job of being a young Sean Bean. His facial expressions and the way he carried himself were spot on (albeit younger). They are such a tease not letting us follow Ned up the tower! UGH!!  BTW, nobody knows Jon Snow's parentage, not even book readers, that's why it is just speculation. A lot of us are hopeful that the flashbacks we are seeing now may finally tell us that story, since Ned never got to have that chat with Jon.

I'm hoping that the Umbers are just conning the Boltons but I could really see it going either way. I was pretty sure it was a ploy until I saw that Direwolf head. I was under the impression Direwolves were pretty rare south of the wall and probably not easy to find a ringer just lying around :(

But Ramsay is going to meet his end somehow this season I bet, whether it be by a Jon Snow/Wildling army marching on Winterfell or some attempt by the Umbers to overthrow him. Roose cautioned that if he behaved like a rabid dog he'd be treated like one and maybe that's what Lord Umber is up to. Either way, I found Lord Umber hilarious so I really hope he's not yet another bad guy conspiring against the Starks. BTW I think Walder Frey may be a bit angry to hear what became of Walda when word gets out... so I do think some hell is ready to rain down on House Bolton any minute now.

I was not happy with the actor that played young Ned but I'm really prejudiced since I have so much admiration for Sean Bean and his portrayal of Ned Stark that I just can't imagine any other actor being him except him. Maybe it was the wig they put on that actor that killed it for me. I wish they could have had Sean Bean play himself and just digitally make him younger somehow.

I think that if Ramsay Bolton is going to meet his end......and he will, it would be divine justice if 'Reek' Theon was the one to end his life. I think Theon deserves some kind of closure and vengeance in order to live with all that Ramsay had put him through. Theon betrayed the family that raised him and now that he and Sansa are on good terms I think it would be only fitting that Theon redeem himself by overthrowing Ramsay Bolton.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Puffaroo said:

I could swear I saw Tormond on a TV commercial within the last couple of weeks.  A phone service, maybe?

You saw him in the commercial for the rewards program for Wyndham Hotels/Resorts.  He's the Rewards Wyzard - there have been other ads and they were quite amusing.  The actor seems to really get into character.

[Conan Troutman]

Really liked the episode, this clicked a lot better than the first two. The only part that dragged on a little was (as usual) Sam and Gilly. A bit too much exposition while they were just sitting on a boat. Though I liked the part about Gilly pestering Sam with tons of question. Just let the man vomit in peace, goddammit. 

The flashback to the tower was interesting and I like how it puts oh-so-honorable Ned a little bit in perspective. Jamie did have a point when they talked in season one. Curios how that shout to Ned worked. What did he hear? Could Bran theoretically change the past, despite what three-eyed raven said? Obviously he isn't going to cause major changes or we'd be undoing the entire show and possibly much more, but maybe he could influence the present in a significant way. There's probably some sort of mechanism in place that caused Ned to not understand or shrug it off as a hallucination, but this may not be the case if it isn't the past. 

I even dug Arya's story this week. It wasn't more of the same, she clearly made progress. Finally we see her getting better at fighting, which is what will really help her. Sweeping floors may be necessary to humble her, but it isn't going to make her a better assassin. Loved the threat against the Waif, who is getting more and more jealous. Watch out girl, now that Arya can see again. I wonder if the Waif will go rogue and try to kill Arya if she rises above the Waif's position. For someone supposed to be no one, she has surprisingly big ego problems. That's some nice irony there. 

I could've done without Tormund's pecker joke. It was funny enough, but felt really out of place. At least that was the only instance of misplaced humor this week. Tyrion trying to turn the Meereenes small council meetings into a drinking game worked much better for me. Over at the other smalI council, I liked the callback to the season three "game of chairs" (one of the best scenes the show has ever done), this time it was Jamie's turn. 

Varys was really great, too. I love how he's able to play the game his way, it's so much more effective than brute force. I always thought she was the chief Harpy, though, so I was surprised to learn how she was just another cog in the machine. It does make sense, though, and turns a supposedly local problem into a full scale guerrilla war/game of whack-a-mole they cannot win. I hope they realize this once Dany makes her way back and at long last get their asses back to Westeros.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[izabella]

43 minutes ago, RadiantAerynSun said:

Well obviously something important is up in the tower, and since the war is basically over (as they mention the mad king and Rhaegar are dead) one would assume Ned is attempting to rescue his sister, who was being guarded by a last couple of loyal Targaryen guards. We know this attempt wasn't successful based on episode 1, but what we don't know is "why" as it was never said how/why Lyanna died during the kerfuffle for the throne. Based on the scream heard from the up the tower it's not a huge leap to assume Lyanna is what's up there and that she is in distress/danger of some sort.

I haven't read the books and know less than Jon Snow, but it seems pretty heavily telegraphed that Lyanna is in that tower.  Young Ned made it clear he was looking for her by repeatedly asking that dude where is his sister, and gee, who could that possibly have been screaming from the tower at the end?    I'm guessing she's in there, is screaming during childbirth, and Ned (now that he and his buddy have killed the guards) gets there just in time for Lyanna to die in his arms after childbirth.  That gives him a "bastard son Snow" to take home and lie about to Cat, as well as Lyanna's body which is entombed at Winterfell (we saw her statue; not sure if her body is actually there, though).   This show is soooooo slow in getting anywhere that you have to make up your own stories during it.

[DarkRaichu]

13 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

The poor aren't armed, though. And the Faith Militant doesn't need to be disbanded or prevented from helping the poor. Their leader needs to be arrested and the FM need to be de-armed. It was Cersei who allowed them to be armed in the first place so this is a relatively new thing. I'd be interested to know how many members of the FM are armed at any given time, or are guarding wherever the hell Margaery and Loras are being held.

It seems like a relatively simple thing for Tommen, or Jamie, or someone, to march up to this place with the full backing of the Kingsguard (plus additional backup recruits, if necessary), place the High Sparrow under arrest, and demand the release of the Queen and her brother. Would the FM really have the forces necessary to prevent this or stop this? I can imagine there being a skirmish of some kind but it seems to me the FM would be outnumbered and easily out-maneuvered. The Kingsguard are supposed to be trained swordsmen - what kind of training have the FM had? They're supposed to be new at this.

Maybe, but if the poor turn on them, they would have to kill their own people plus most FM.  I do not think anyone necessarily want the blood of their own people in their hands, at least not publicly

[proserpina65]

Quote

I really don't get this either. They don't even need the Lannister Army - don't they control the Kingsguard? Aren't there enough of them to arrest the High Sparrow and de-arm the Faith Militant?

The Kingsguard is only a few men, and even the City Guard is probably only a few dozen men.  The Faith Militant has drawn in the large underprivileged and poor population of Kings Landing and greatly outnumbers the pro-Lannister faction.  Now, as to where the Lannister Army is, that I can't answer.

[Timetoread]

Quote

 

Actually, depending on how avid a fan you are, there was plenty in the show to make the connection. I'm completely unspoiled and haven't read the books, but I found the thread when they were talking about Lyanna in the crypts (there was a scene where Cersei was complaining about how Robert always loved Lyanna more than her -- even after she was dead -- or something like that). I can't remember the exact conversation or even what season or episode - but when you're a superfan, you remember these things... know the quotes and the scenes and have the screencaps and it makes it easier to make the connections. But anyway, I found the thread in that scene and pulled on it in followup scenes - like when they were searching for all the "Baratheon blood" and were killing all the bastards... You had to wonder if there were any more of them out there... which harkened back to whether or not Robert ever slept with Lyanna and possibly had another bastard we didn't know about... and then there were further scenes during which everyone wondered why Ned cared so much about Jon Snow. And I feel like there were plenty of other side discussions about Ned's loyalty and honor, so it kind of made it hard to believe he would cheat. So yeah, there actually were a lot of dots to connect in the show and plenty of cause for this speculation.

Granted, that's not to say that talking about the "Tower of Joy" isn't an obvious book reference -- because what? I've never heard of the Tower of Joy so, yeah...people should be more careful - but as far as Snow's parentage, that speculation has been out there, with good reason, for a while and I was able to get there without any help.

 

Sorry but no.  I'll fess up that I am not an avid fan of this show (In fact I chastize myself for still watching.  I guess I want to see if the dragons will ever burn down KL).  I am an avid fan of other shows, though, so I get it in terms of watching and rewatching and following bread crumbs.  That said, there is NOTHING in the last two episodes that spelled out this level of speculation.  There was no deductive exposition that made it clear by Bran watching his teenaged aunt deftly ride a horse in a flashback that the subject matter at hand is the reveal that she is Jon Snow's REAL mother and Robert is his REAL father.  In fact your post is the first time I'd thought to put this together because nothing in the narrative thus far told us to give a good goddamn about WHO gave birth to Jon.  We know that Ned took credit for the sperm donation and his wife hated the kid because of it.  I didn't even see a lot of Ned caring "so much" about Jon Snow.  He never gave him his name and he shipped him off to Oz.  Ned was no indicator of anything special about Jon. This is what I mean about this being a spoilerific forum - the speculation isn't even following the narrative.  It's not like you go, because Young Ned is fighting some guy outside of some random ass castle on some random ass hill and there is some unseen broad inside is screaming, "AHA Jon Snow is the TRUE HEIR to the throne!!!!  Elementary my dear! " Nope, it really isn't!

Seriously, what you wrote makes sense, but I think that a show that needs to you to have committed to memory dialogue from from 5 seasons back so that a chick riding a horse solves a whole mystery that nobody cared about in the first place is piss poor writing.  This show hasn't even told me why I should care about Jon Snow at all, and frankly I don't.  I'll grant you breadcrumbs, but the way people here lose their minds when some obscure character you've never seen before walks down the street or some other such nonsense is nothing but straight up fandom spoiling.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Timetoread
Grammar

[izabella]

Well, Kevan is there and he leads the Lannister Army.  Maybe the army is at the Lannister country home where Kevan took them when he left in the first place, but if he had time to get back to KL, so does the Lannister Army.  Damn, their Queen is locked up by some rabble and no one is lifting a finger to save her.  I need me some haughty Margaery to get on Cersei's nerves!

[Timetoread]

Quote

....an afterthought, why do we get to see a lot of the women full frontal nudity, like Cersei and others yet we're denied seeing Jon Snow full frontal penis? I'll cry sexism.  (Just sayin')

Apparently the audience would need magnifying equipment to see it anyway, so no loss there.

[NeenerNeener]

Quote

Of course seeing the little brother Stark again means that he´s stuck with RB, that´s scary but I´m still hopeful that RB will have his karma delivered soon, in the form of a wilding girl perhaps?

The most karmically satisfying end for Ramsay would be for him to be eaten by his own dogs, but that would be obvious, so it won't happen. 

[SimoneS]

15 hours ago, HumblePi said:

I think that if Ramsay Bolton is going to meet his end......and he will, it would be divine justice if 'Reek' Theon was the one to end his life. I think Theon deserves some kind of closure and vengeance in order to live with all that Ramsay had put him through. Theon betrayed the family that raised him and now that he and Sansa are on good terms I think it would be only fitting that Theon redeem himself by overthrowing Ramsay Bolton.

No way. Theon doesn't deserve one iota of closer or vengeance. He killed two children, and Sir. Rodrick. While Theon earns a measure of redemption for saving Sansa, what he did was unforgivable. He will have to live with what Ramsey did to him. 

Sansa and Jon are the ones who deserve to seek justice from Ramsey's terrible crimes.

Edited May 10, 2016 by SimoneS

[HumblePi]

5 minutes ago, Timetoread said:

Apparently the audience would need magnifying equipment to see it anyway, so no loss there.

Yeah but cold has a shrinkage effect so it stands to reason that being dead must have an ever greater super shrinkage effect, so it's difficult to gauge by that.

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

No way. Theon doesn't deserve one iota of closer or vengeance. He killed two children, and Sir. Rodrick. While Theon earns a measure of redemption for saving Sansa, what he did was unforgivable. He will have to live with what Ramsey did to him. 

Sansa and Jon are the ones who deserve to reign justice upon Ramsey for his terrible crimes.

It's a toss-up for me as to who has more reason to unleash revenge on Ramsay Bolton. The Starks have certainly been victims of his evilness, but losing a penis, being tortured and humiliated would, in my opinion, be more than enough to earn the right to exact more than a little revenge.

[Kbilly]

I enjoyed the Jon eye candy as much as you all, however methinks the view from the back might have been a body double. The upper back seemed very broad and Kit seems a little more wee.

[Cyranetta]

I find the more"talky" eps fascinating because they tend to take a concept and look at it from all angles (and inside out).

Oathbreaker takes a look at how various characters deal with oaths and their importance as rules in the Game.

Main oathbreaker - Jon Snow, it would seem, but the wording of his oath gives him the out.

Alliser Thorne 50/50. His formal oath is to the Night's Watch, and presumably obedience to the Commander, and in his eyes he was keeping his oath to the one by breaking it to the other.

Olly kept his vengeance oath, and the expression on his face after hanging erased it back to innocence.

Glad they addressed the difference between not-dead Snow and a White Walker.

Sam may always be torn between his "professional" oath and his personal oath to GIlly (who has no conflict about oaths whatsoever).

There's no overt oathtaking or breaking in the Bran scene, but who knows what oath the Three-Eyed Raven has taken  or what oath Bran is expected to take?
Dany is confronted by the "group-think" nature of oathbreaking. As an outsider, the agreement that widowed Khaleesi (s?) stay immured in Vaes Dothrak makes no sense, but it's ironic that the Mother of Dragons is now herself caged after caging her "children".
Varys' "little birds" aren't bound by oaths, but by reward, and Vala doesn't appear to be bound by an oath, but by a threat.
King's Landing is dominated by the High Sparrow's oathtakers, opposing those whose only oaths seem to be made to family, with the members of the small council caught in the middle.
By following the training of the Faceless Men Arya is in essence taking a new oath, but that means breaking her vengeance oath (and maybe the insistence of becoming "a girl with no  name" is a way of absolving oathbreaking, the official "out").

It appears that Smalljon Umber is breaking his oath of fealty to the Starks by turning Rickon over to Ramsay Bolton, but maybe it's the first step in a long game, where it will be evident that his oath stands.

 

[AnnaMayWong]

Hallooo, Ramsey ! Your suffering and demise is required. NOW❗ 

 

I do believe that it is time for all to call:                       1-800-save-a-STARK

 

Ah, Ser Aliser. You, suh, exemplify the rigid sureness of the deliberately intellectually stunted and weak-witted.

 

It would behoove The North to ingest some Gingko Biloba then rally around Jon/Starks et al.

[xaxat]

In what may be the strangest nitpick you will ever read. . . execution by hanging is a science! There are charts on how to do it. You don't just throw a noose around someone's neck and hope it works. You want someone to fall far enough so they accelerate to a speed that breaks their neck. Too short of a fall and they just strangle. Too far and their head pops off.

Alliser, big guy. Put him at 200 pounds. Drop of at least five feet.

Olly, put him at 140. Drop of about seven feet.

Not the same!

(Yeah, I know how creepy that rant reads.)

[Conan Troutman]

Who says Jon wanted their necks to break?

[peggy06]

1 hour ago, Timetoread said:

Sorry but no.  I'll fess up that I am not an avid fan of this show (In fact I chastize myself for still watching.  I guess I want to see if the dragons will ever burn down KL).  I am an avid fan of other shows, though, so I get it in terms of watching and rewatching and following bread crumbs.  That said, there is NOTHING in the last two episodes that spelled out this level of speculation.  There was no deductive exposition that made it clear by Bran watching his teenaged aunt deftly ride a horse in a flashback that the subject matter at hand is the reveal that she is Jon Snow's REAL mother and Robert is his REAL father.  In fact your post is the first time I'd thought to put this together because nothing in the narrative thus far told us to give a good goddamn about WHO gave birth to Jon.  We know that Ned took credit for the sperm donation and his wife hated the kid because of it.  I didn't even see a lot of Ned caring "so much" about Jon Snow.  He never gave him his name and he shipped him off to Oz.  Ned was no indicator of anything special about Jon. This is what I mean about this being a spoilerific forum - the speculation isn't even following the narrative.  It's not like you go, because Young Ned is fighting some guy outside of some random ass castle on some random ass hill and there is some unseen broad inside is screaming, "AHA Jon Snow is the TRUE HEIR to the throne!!!!  Elementary my dear! " Nope, it really isn't!

Seriously, what you wrote makes sense, but I think that a show that needs to you to have committed to memory dialogue from from 5 seasons back so that a chick riding a horse solves a whole mystery that nobody cared about in the first place is piss poor writing.  This show hasn't even told me why I should care about Jon Snow at all, and frankly I don't.  I'll grant you breadcrumbs, but the way people here lose their minds when some obscure character you've never seen before walks down the street or some other such nonsense is nothing but straight up fandom spoiling.

This is my personal opinion, but the show to me is all about the plot. This is not a multi-layered thoughtful drama; everything is on the screen. Therefore the element of surprise is what makes it entertaining. Now laying the groundwork in past seasons is good, as long as that's where it happens. What I get from this forum is people who know what's coming up, and post about the current action based on their knowledge. I realize it is tricky with a show based on older source material. When you know something, it can be hard to tell what might be a spoiler to another person who doesn't know it. If you are just saying what you think will happen, based on previous clues, good for you for putting it all together. But to me, that's the subject for a different kind of (speculation) forum.

I thought this season wouldn't be a problem, because the show had caught up to the books. Evidently not.

Edited May 9, 2016 by peggy06

[dramachick]

RIP Shaggy Dog. {resuming composure}

I'm trying to figure out the politics of the situation in the north. 

Roose is dead. 

Power resides where men believe it resides.

Ramsey has no true allies. Killed his father and liege lord, killed Lord Frey's daughter, and has tortured his bannermen. He's a dead man walking.

There is a power vacuum. 

The north cannot be held by an outsider.

All hell's gonna break loose unless military might is consolidated behind one house.  Who will it be?

[izabella]

15 minutes ago, dramachick said:

All hell's gonna break loose unless military might is consolidated behind one house.  Who will it be?

Whoever has the biggest army.  I don't know how big Umber's army is, but he is asking for help from Ramsey to fight the Wildlings, so maybe the Bolton army is bigger.  Plus, it looks like Ramsey has the Karstark forces behind him, so it seems power is consolidating with Ramsey.  Does the Frey army ever leave the Twin Towers? 

Anyway, Ramsey now has a Stark at Winterfell again, and is still married to Sansa despite her not being there (making Rickon his BIL), so it's looking like the Boltons hold the North at this point. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by izabella

[Potanical Pardon]

I'm not a book reader, but I first gleaned on the Jon Snow parentage mystery two seasons ago. Part of it is that sometimes I'd marathon the entire series in the background while doing other stuff too. A lot of it has to do with other characters and completely different plots. I learned quickly that nothing on the show is superfluous or just slice-of-life filler nor chit-chat. So when random scenes or exchanges happen now, I store that in my mind like...that means absolutely nothing, so it must pay off some day. At the very beginning Ned tells Jon Snow when they're all leaving to go do their own things that when they meet again, he'll tell him the truth about his mother. And then there's some picnic scene or whatever when Bobby B is asking Ned about Jon's mother and Ned deflects the question saying it's some bar wench. They also point out how honorable and noble Ned is as a character, even beyond the noblest honorable men in Westeros so this whole spiel about Ned having some moment of weakness, with some random bar maid of all people, and being super secretive about...none of that makes sense. So since then (but granted, possibly on a 4th rewatch) it clicked for me to look out for anything that could play into that. And that's when I noticed in subsequent seasons A TON of clues pointing out that Jon Snow's parentage must definitely be a thing on this show, not something out of nowhere and not some side whatever.

Last season was the first time my observations pointed me towards Lyanna. The show made it a point for Sansa to be staring at her aunt's grave and talk about how rapey Rhaegar Targaryen was and how she hated him for kidnapping her aunt. Barristan Selmy talked about Rhaegar in either the same episode or one nearby to Dany about how the dude sang songs in the streets and was always peaceful. That to me screams: "Someone's a liar, and I don't think it's Barristan Selmy." And Lyanna's name keeps getting dropped WAY too often in every season to be unimportant. Her rapey kidnapper too. Another rewatch of the entire series shows me that Bobby B effing loves the crap out of Lyanna but it's all from out of his own mouth. I even noticed that when he's talking about her fondly and Ned's there, Ned's all like "yeaaaah, man. Uh huh."

All I know is that if the Starks have some resurgence as a House, it's not going to be through street urchin murdery Arya. And it's not going to be clueless Sansa. Bran's gone all supernatural, so it's not going to be him. And the story ends before Rickon is an adult, so for the intents of this story, it's not him either. They all have parts to play and stuff, but narratively, there's only one Stark that fits any criteria near enough to be main protagonist level. You start to get a feel for which characters are untouchable-protagonists until whenever the end of this story are: That's why when Jon Snow died last season, it was like...nope, don't buy it. Ned's death you understand now in retrospect, because enough of the show has aired and enough story exists where you've figured out the patterns and feel. Jon Snow, Danaerys, and Tyrion are the only ones that stick out as untouchable protagonists. And IMO, Littlefinger is the only one that sticks out as untouchable antagonist.

Anyways, I didn't know the name, Tower of Joy, until either here or some Youtube after show, but whatever. I've seen last night's episode three times now and the latest thing I noticed is the two dudes with Targaryen armor. They're kingsguard. KINGSguard. Ned or the other guy even point out that they expected to see them in Kings Landing, but they're way the fuck over here nowhere near a king...to guard. They're guarding what then? This is all totally speculative, but there are a lot of signs pointing a certain way plot-wise, though just not confirmed yet.

As for all the High Sparrow and Faith Militant, I don't get it either. The best I've got is he's supposed to be Constantine-esque. So the Small Council/government is maintaining peace within its people with some semblance of order...even if they sometimes throw poo at you. From what I can tell, there should be enough Lannister army, Tyrell forces, City Guard, and Kingsguard to beat the crap out of the Sparrows. *shrug* I'm guessing the show blows it's wad with budget on all the brown people surrounding Danaerys so there's not much left to display mobs and mobs of citizens and Faith Militant in Westeros to convey danger. That's all I can think of - the show doing a bad job of homaging Constantine's acquisition of power.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[candall]

Game of Thrones is giving me chronic fatigue.  They have about 15 story balls in the air already and they just keep loading more into the hopper.  How much time are we going to spend watching Sam's family be rude to Gilly?  Is anyone excited to see how that power struggle plays out between Yara Greyjoy and her new uncle? 

This is the third year Gendry's been out there rowing--with ten episodes per annum, they could string us along for a decade before we get back to Young Ned on the tower staircase.

I might die of old age before I get to see Tyrion loaded up on a flying dragon--which is all I REALLY, REALLY want.  (Just my ardent hope, nothing realsie.)

******************

For people mourning Shaggydog--which would be everyone--here's a little [non-spoiler] direwolf tidbit from real life to cheer you up: 

Spoiler

Sophie Turner's parents adopted the dog who played Sansa's direwolf, Lady.  Nice.

Edited May 10, 2016 by candall

[wayne67]

I've never cared who John Snow's parents are. I'm more interested in what characters DO than who they are related to. 

That said, Rickon now has his own individual storyline for the first time in 6 seasons. I wonder if he'll distinguish himself somehow. Perhaps he'll kill Ramsay and retake and restore the North. That'd be interesting.

I'm still waiting for Bran to think about warging into Daenrys dragon and marry her to unite old and new 'royal' bloodlines. 

Then again I've been waiting since the first episode for the White Walkers to show up in Westeros. There's a lot of waiting for plots to pay off in this show.