S05.E21: Last Rites

[OnceUponAJen]

Honestly, the CS reunion has nothing to do with Regina. It doesn't mean that noone appreciates her pain at losing Robin. However,  both Mills sisters have always been very "you got what should have been mine" or " you ruined my life," so I really don't expect anything different here. Regina and Zelena have a hard time being gracious at others' happiness in comparison to their own. That's usually a lesson we all learn at a much younger age.

[InsertWordHere]

I've been assuming Smee and the rest of Hook's crew had a funeral for him. Emma must not have informed anyone that she was trying to bring him back, otherwise I would think they would have waited to bury him.  

[Serena]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

 

The problem with having him return after Robin's funeral is that in a way, it makes it about Regina even though it has nothing to do with Regina and Regina wasn't even there to have their joy rubbed into her face at her lost. It parallels more directly with Emma getting her boyfriend back while Regina loses hers, and kind of makes Hook's return about Regina's pain. At least, that's the way they seem to have framed it, and they're just inviting comparisons.

You mean, like Snow and Emma's return to SB in S2 was framed as being about Regina's pain? Yeah...

[AudienceofOne]

17 minutes ago, Serena said:

You mean, like Snow and Emma's return to SB in S2 was framed as being about Regina's pain? Yeah...

God I'd forgotten about that. Please do not give me a Season 6 with Zelena and Regina going dark together over losing their "Happy Endings" while Emma gets hers. I'm tired of this conflation. Emma and Hook deserve every happiness they can get. Regina and Zelena should just be happy they're alive and being tolerated.

[Watt]

The "Regina can't have anything nice because she's always getting fucked by Emma and Hook" has started already on Instagram and Twitter.  Proceed at your own risk. 

I can't even comprehend how anyone could even a little bit blame Emma and Hook for anything. 

[Bishop]

I know I may catch flak for this, but I really have no reaction to Robin's death beyond that I felt bad for Regina.  Robin, as a character, has been bland since he arrived, and he hasn't been given any real story or maybe the character is just boring.  I haven't decided which, but I'm not sorry he's gone because when he wasn't on, I didn't miss him.  I also didn't feel in that death scene that Regina was devastated by his loss or maybe it was just too underplayed.  I get that Hades was trying to kill her but once Robin was dead, she just got up and went over to Hades and Zelena and started to try to convince her sister that Hades was bad.  When I contrast that reaction with Emma losing Killian, it was a striking difference.  I was happy that after Zelena killed Hades that Regina went back to Robin's body to grieve, but at that point . . . meh.

I love how Charming is with Emma, and he knows his daughter so well.  She can't fool him with her "My anger has nothing to do with Hook."  Yeah right.  The new season needs LOTS and LOTS more of Charming with Emma - and Snow and even Hook.  

I have to say that I enjoyed the Hook/Arthur bromance.  Throw in Cruella, and those three together could have been really funny, but I get that they didn't want to make the episode or the journey some slapstick roadshow.  I liked how Arthur redeemed himself (a bit) by being willing to sacrifice himself so that Killian could get to the book while that wrath-thing almost pulled him into the RIver of Souls.  Kudos to Killian too for going back for Arthur.  I was surprised that Killian was shown ACTUALLY walking into the light.  I thought he'd get zapped out of the Underworld, but I wasn't expecting him to actually pass on, and I realized I really liked that idea because he kept his word to Emma and also was willing to see what was on the other side.  

Finally, the CS reunion.  I had no problem with Killian showing up at Robin's grave.  Zeus sent Killian back to exactly where Emma was presently, and that happened to be at Robin's grave.  Kudos to Jennifer Morrison for her scene at Killian's grave.  THAT is how you play grief.  I thought that Emma's reaction to Killian being there all of a sudden was perfect, and I think Colin and Jen played it just right.  Emma was so happy to see him, she couldn't stop kissing him or hugging him, and he ended up laughing and smiling because he can't believe he's back either.  I have a feeling some of that scene was ad-libbed. I also like that Hook earned his "miracle."  I have no problem with Hook being brought back from the dead because everything that happened to him was because of someone else.  Emma chose to make him a Dark One, and then Gold had Hook sacrifice himself to infuse him with darkness (because Gold knew it was going to be either Emma or Hook dying).  Considering how many losses Hook has also suffered, he deserved some happily-ever-after too.

I just hope to God that we aren't going back to the Evil Queen.  We already have Gold fully embracing his darkness, and so I don't need to see Regina completely regress too.  No thanks.  I want to see forward movement with the main core characters now.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Bishop

[Camera One]

What was the rush in "rescuing" Robin's baby?  I know they were worried, but Zelena wouldn't let anything happen to her.  Until they found out how to defend themselves against Hades, that shouldn't even be on the agenda.

[AudienceofOne]

18 minutes ago, Bishop said:

I know I may catch flak for this, but I really have no reaction to Robin's death beyond that I felt bad for Regina.

As long as you didn't start laughing, you reacted better than me.

[Scovies]

The direction/editing for Robin's death was terrible, unfortunately. The slow motion, extreme close-ups, and iffy CGI just didn't work and really took away from the moment.

[Daisy]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What was the rush in "rescuing" Robin's baby?  I know they were worried, but Zelena wouldn't let anything happen to her.  Until they found out how to defend themselves against Hades, that shouldn't even be on the agenda.

 

I don't know. it's like. I get that they were like "Hades is evil" and that the Baby was with Hades... but the baby was also with Zelena. And since Regina trusted Zelena (and never even thought for a moment that Zelena was team kill the Charming Gang) I never understood that rush. it really just seemed like Robin just needed to have the baby back because he hated Zelena. (which, to be fair, as she raped him he had every right to be not team Zelena at all)

but I think everyone was just soo, we gotta move! we gotta END THIS. (even hades) like it just felt. so rushed.
Hades comes back and he HAD to connect the thing that would "end him" right then and there
Robin HAD to get his daughter 
Emma HAD to get Hades. 

and it was like.... like it or not Emma, it wasn't Hades fault that Hook was gone. He manipulated the situation, but it wasn't his fault. 
Robin you didn't have to get Pistachio right then and there
Hades, you didn't even need to make the uber-duber killer thing. you're a god, pretty sure if you put your mind to it, you could kill Emma and everyone without even blinking. 

 

But someone wrote abouve that Hades was treated like a level 1 up wizard from Regina/Emma. (and that Zelena basically forgot she had magic).

[Chaos Theory]

I can't explain how much I hate this episode and outright resent Hook living and Robin Hood dying and I don't even like Robin Hood.  I think my resentment comes from the show giving Regina redemption plots and slowing making her a better person and not giving her any credit for it while everyone else get happiness.  That is basically the plot of the show now.  Regina suffers and everyone else celebrates victory.   When she was the evil queen that was one thing big she isn't anymore.  If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

I think I am done.  

[Curio]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

Part of being a hero is also going through pain. No one is saying Regina isn't a hero, but just because you're a hero doesn't mean you don't suffer. The best heroes suffer but keep fighting the good fight. And that's always seemed to be Regina's biggest flaw, she thinks being a hero automatically means she should be rewarded with a good life. Emma—the show's biggest hero—has suffered nearly 20 full episodes this season, and just now she got 40 seconds of bliss with Hook that had to be cut short because they realized they were standing in a cemetery. That's not a huge victory.

And to your point about Hook vs. Regina, it's because (According to Adam & Eddy, don't shoot the messenger.) Regina hasn't paid her karmic debt yet. And honestly, I agree with that statement. If you compare Hook's evil deeds to Regina's, Regina is by far the worse villain. (Again, that's another Adam & Eddy statement. They list Regina and Rumple as this show's ultimate Big Bad Villains, not Hook.) If OUAT looks to stay on the air for longer than another year, they need to keep finding ways to roadblock Regina and her happy ending. And for someone who has slaughtered villages with a smile on her face, she's lucky she's still breathing at this point, let alone finding herself in a discussion about getting a happily ever after. It's TS;TW so of course Regina is going to get a happy ending, but it probably won't be until the very end of the series.

[Bishop]

11 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I can't explain how much I hate this episode and outright resent Hook living and Robin Hood dying and I don't even like Robin Hood.  I think my resentment comes from the show giving Regina redemption plots and slowing making her a better person and not giving her any credit for it while everyone else get happiness.  That is basically the plot of the show now.  Regina suffers and everyone else celebrates victory.   When she was the evil queen that was one thing big she isn't anymore.  If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

 

How hasn't Regina been a hero?  Isn't the entire reason that Emma took on the Dark One mantle was because she felt Regina didn't deserve to become the Dark One because of all the progress she had made?  It was the main reason that Emma sacrificed herself for Regina.  Hook absolutely, imo, deserved to live, and that doesn't mean that Robin deserved to die, but I don't see how if one died, then the other must die also.  Frankly, I have never felt that Regina and Robin were true loves.  They were cute and sweet, but I never got the true love, epic romance vibe from them.  I get it from Hook and Emma, from Charming and Snow, and even from Belle and Rumple.  Granted, the latter one is a twisted relationship, but she is the one person he absolutely loves and adores and she can't help herself in loving him too.  I never got a sense of true love from Robin and Regina, and maybe that was the writers fault because they seemed to drop the Robin/Regina romance in favor of the Regina/Zelena relationship.  

[Scovies]

4 minutes ago, Curio said:

Part of being a hero is also going through pain. No one is saying Regina isn't a hero, but just because you're a hero doesn't mean you don't suffer. The best heroes suffer but keep fighting the good fight. And that's always seemed to be Regina's biggest flaw, she thinks being a hero automatically means she should be rewarded with a good life. Emma—the show's biggest hero—has suffered nearly 20 full episodes this season, and just now she got 40 seconds of bliss with Hook that had to be cut short because they realized they were standing in a cemetery. That's not a huge victory.

And to your point about Hook vs. Regina, it's because (According to Adam & Eddy, don't shoot the messenger.) Regina hasn't paid her karmic debt yet. And honestly, I agree with that statement. If you compare Hook's evil deeds to Regina's, Regina is by far the worse villain. (Again, that's another Adam & Eddy statement. They list Regina and Rumple as this show's ultimate Big Bad Villains, not Hook.) If OUAT looks to stay on the air for longer than another year, they need to keep finding ways to roadblock Regina and her happy ending. And for someone who has slaughtered villages with a smile on her face, she's lucky she's still breathing at this point, let alone finding herself in a discussion about getting a happily ever after. It's TS;TW so of course Regina is going to get a happy ending, but it probably won't be until the very end of the series.

Exactly. I mean, Regina's working with the heroes now and not actively killing anyone, but we've never even seen her feel bad about any of the shit she's done, save killing her father. And how did they resolve that? With her father saying that he failed her. She's got a lot to atone for, and it would sure as hell help if they would let her show remorse for the person she used to be and stop blaming everybody else for her problems. That's why her redemption arc has fallen so flat with me (I felt the same about Rumple before he went full-on villain again after S3).

S4 was a huge misfire as far the writing went for Regina (among other things). She simply decided that she deserved a happy ending and wanted to find the Author to create one for her, regardless of whether or not she deserves it. I've liked Regina a lot more in 5B than I have previously and feel like she's been written a lot better, and I hope that trend continues. Maybe we'll get it in the finale.

[Rumsy4]

35 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What was the rush in "rescuing" Robin's baby?  I know they were worried, but Zelena wouldn't let anything happen to her.  Until they found out how to defend themselves against Hades, that shouldn't even be on the agenda.

Yeah. That was very shortsighted. Pistachio was not in any immediate danger. They all should have taken a chill pill and thought through a proper strategy to separate Zelena from Hades instead of rushing in without a plan. Maybe they were blindly worried Hades would harm the baby. 

Quote

Hook absolutely, imo, deserved to live, and that doesn't mean that Robin deserved to die, but I don't see how if one died, then the other must die also. 

 

Quote

 If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

It's not Regina who died. Robin's death is about Regina. Hook's death was about both Hook and Emma, and even Henry. Comparing Robin to Hook is really like comparing apples to oranges. Robin barely had any screentime this season. Hook has been an integral member of the main action for several seasons now. I do think it's a shame the way the writers killed off Robin, but  I don't see how Hook had to die just becasue Robin did. 

[Mockingbird]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The problem with having him return after Robin's funeral is that in a way, it makes it about Regina even though it has nothing to do with Regina and Regina wasn't even there to have their joy rubbed into her face at her lost. It parallels more directly with Emma getting her boyfriend back while Regina loses hers, and kind of makes Hook's return about Regina's pain. At least, that's the way they seem to have framed it, and they're just inviting comparisons.

I was convinced the first time I watched that scene that Regina was going to show up mid embrace and lose it when she saw them. I couldn't really enjoy that scene until I watched it again knowing that they weren't going to be interrupted. 

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I think my resentment comes from the show giving Regina redemption plots and slowing making her a better person and not giving her any credit for it while everyone else get happiness.  That is basically the plot of the show now.  Regina suffers and everyone else celebrates victory.

This is where you lost me.  How is Regina not given any credit for it?  If anything, she gets too much credit, with every single hero whose lives she has damaged in irreparable ways considering her family, coddling her, repeating that "she's come so far", "she's changed", "she deserves a happy ending". Remember 4B, the story arc where literally everyone else suffered trying to get Regina her own happiness?  Only for it to be pointless since - big surprise! - Regina controls her own story, thus her own happiness?  And in the end, Emma becomes the Dark One, leading to the misery she has suffered for this entire season, in order to save Regina and ensure she keeps her happy ending?

Edited May 10, 2016 by Mathius

[Mabinogia]

Robin bored me to tears so I'm not sorry to see him go. I am, however, upset that we probably won't get Cruella again. I LOVED her. I would watch the Underbrooke Chronicals, focused on Arthur trying, ineptly as always, to make Underbrooke a better place while Cruella undermines him at every turn just because it's more fun. lol

I could care less about Hook and Emma as a couple, I like them both better on their own, but yay for them and the most predictable "twist" ever. Was that supposed to be a twist? Was anyone genuinely surprised that Zeus send him back for his "good dead"? If so, I kind of envy you because that was damned boring because it was so painfully obvious I was just sitting there waiting for them to get it over with already.

22 hours ago, Eolivet said:

Every time Zelena said Hades was a god, it sounded like she wanted to add "in bed." The phallic weapon didn't help matters either.

hahaha, so true and so icky. The crystal sex toy was...well, two sided. How romantic. lol

I did like Arthur and Killian Jones and the Temple of Doom. That was fun and reminded me of back when I actually loved Hook, before he was domesticated.

Glad Hades is dead. Glad this whole underworld storyline is dead. Hope the next storyline doesn't drag quite as much.

[ParadoxLost]

36 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I can't explain how much I hate this episode and outright resent Hook living and Robin Hood dying and I don't even like Robin Hood.  I think my resentment comes from the show giving Regina redemption plots and slowing making her a better person and not giving her any credit for it while everyone else get happiness.  That is basically the plot of the show now.  Regina suffers and everyone else celebrates victory.   When she was the evil queen that was one thing big she isn't anymore.  If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

I think I am done.  

I try not to resent other characters, just the writers.  Frankly, the writing for Hook is leagues better than Regina.  Side by side, its really strange that they are better at writing Hook's redemption that Regina's.  I think that if they had made a few different decisions with Regina's storyline, it would have made a huge difference.

I'm a firm believer in viewer equity, that the audience evens it out when a character gets little credit in show for their good deeds or no punishment for their bad deeds.  They played this game right with Hook.  They made him doubt his worthiness.  They had Snowing trying to protect their daughter from the pirate and take time warming up to him.  They made him confront people he had wronged like Ursula and Ariel.  They gave both Emma and Hook issues that made their relationship a slow build that they had to fight internal struggles to hold together.  And the audience responded with oh woobie don't be so hard on yourself.

With Regina, they made the Charmings her 'family' too fast. Had Snow resented Regina and given her no credit when credit was due, I think the audience would have been more inclined to give Regina more support.  It was also incredibly short sighted to have Regina not encounter anyone she wronged in the UW and help them move on.  Instead she is reunited with both parents that needed to fix that they had wronged her.  They also somehow managed to twist Regina doubting deserving a happy ending into some thematic idea that the universe is out to get villains because of a label placed on them in a story out of their control.  I have no idea how they managed that, but again it takes away Regina's ownership of her deeds in the past and cheapens what it takes to change.  Then you add Robin Hood seeing himself as a common thief to put him on equal footing with Regina and well that's enough of that.  Lets just say that while Regina hasn't done anything wrong at all in current timeline for a very long time and I think she is acting like a redeemed character, I still get annoyed sometimes that it wasn't 'earned' and for some reason shoveling misery upon misery on her isn't making me think that its been retroactively earned.

This is actually as hopeful as I've been for Regina as a character for a long time for two reasons.  The first is that Regina has a chance to definitively demonstrate that she changed by not leveling Storybrooke over Robin's death.  Second, this show has proven that they can't write for characters they don't love (and sometimes even for those they do).  And they love Zelena, Regina, Rumple, Hook, Emma, and half of Snowing (depending who is more available to shoot).  They could really care less about Robin and Belle.  I think putting any of these characters in a relationship with a character that doesn't inspire them is doom.  So Regina getting out of Outlaw Queen and spending most of her time with other screen partners and maybe an inspired new love interest can only help,

[3dog]

Rewatching the scene with Zeus and Hook. Zeus is such a casting misfire. And not even necessary in his only scene. He tells Hook, "I'm here to escort you onward.... It's time to take you where you belong." Then he stands there, neither escorting nor taking anyone anywhere, and Hook walks off alone. Um, thanks?

[Tiger]

If they do make Regina The Evil Queen again, I feel like it'll only be done to have a bitchy witch spar with Emma.

It'd be far more interesting if they brought Cruella & The Blind Witch back to do that.  Have Jafar get them out of the underworld somehow. Heck, the three of then wrecking havoc would be far more interesting than anything Rump or EQ could possibly do.

[Shanna Marie]

I'd feel a lot more sympathetic for Regina's loss if:

1. It wasn't so obviously a case of fridging Robin so they can do a story about Regina's pain.
2. We'd seen Robin and Regina together for more than about five minutes all season and if he hadn't been missing for entire episodes recently with Regina not acting like she missed him at all.
3. We'd ever seen Robin and Regina interacting in a way that they talked about anything other than their own relationship.
4. Regina hadn't just been taking the side of the woman who murdered Robin's wife and raped him, which made it look like he was lower on her priority list than her sister, and she acted like he was being unreasonable for protesting.
5. Regina had run into some of victims in the Underworld and helped them in some way rather than just running into people who had wronged her. It's hard to feel too sympathetic for her loss when she gleefully murdered a groom on his wedding day in front of his bride, and we haven't seen her have any self awareness about that sort of thing.
6. Regina had shown any sense of self-awareness or guilt for the fact that Robin was wounded and nearly killed earlier because he was defending her against one of her victims.

As it is, it kind of feels like karma is finally catching up.

[dr pepper]

and again, Killian is back on Earth in a new body, so why doesn't he have two hands?

[Rumsy4]

11 minutes ago, dr pepper said:

and again, Killian is back on Earth in a new body, so why doesn't he have two hands?

Maybe because the writers think it's good to not "cure" a character's disability. Plus they want to maintain the Hook-iconography. 

[shipperx]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I can't explain how much I hate this episode and outright resent Hook living and Robin Hood dying and I don't even like Robin Hood.  I think my resentment comes from the show giving Regina redemption plots and slowing making her a better person and not giving her any credit for it while everyone else get happiness.  That is basically the plot of the show now.  Regina suffers and everyone else celebrates victory.   When she was the evil queen that was one thing big she isn't anymore.  If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

I think I am done.  

Unlike many in this forum, I like Regina redemption and root for her happy ending.  I was also sad that Robin died and Regina lost her love interest.  That said, I don't think the story has been about Hook and Emma stealing Reginas happy ending.  Emma went 'Dark One' to give Regina a shot at her Happy e

E ding. And Hook died because of the Dark One plot (and Rumple).  

 

 

This isnt a zero sum game.  One character's 'happy end' doesn't preclude another's.  And Regina has had several happy and heroic moments ( and hook and Emma have had multiple angst arcs in a row).  

 

Itll ok balance in the end .  And I bet Regina eventually does get a happy ending as an ending.  It actually isn't a contest.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I just watched the ep, and am only half way through all the comments (since I waited to read until I'd seen the ep.)  but a few things on which I wanted to go ahead and comment.

On 5/9/2016 at 9:00 PM, Curio said:

And sorry, but that baby’s name is forever Pistachio in my heart.

I haven't seen anyone else mention this (yet), so was it just me, or did it seem like Lana stuttered in the tunnel on the way to city hall when she was talking to Robin and said "your daughter"?  Looked to me like she very nearly said Pistachio.

Talk about convenient plot points.  Was this the first we've heard of/seen the secret underground tunnel to the Evil Queen's lair?

On 5/9/2016 at 9:10 PM, AmandaPanda said:

That was the wimpiest Zeus ever. He didn't look like the god of anything. 

Thank goodness I'm not the only one who thought so.

22 hours ago, scenicbyway said:

Poor Belle, maybe her baby will wake her?

When Mo refused to wake Belle, all I could wonder about was what would happen with the baby.  Would she stay in pregnancy stasis forever?  Or will she be like the real Sleeping Beauty fairy tale who gave birth while still under the curse?

21 hours ago, kili said:

When Rumple came into Regina's office, I was hoping it was the maid with a dust buster.

I actually expected Rumple to pull out a dust buster.  Didn't he say something about how magic never disappears, traces of it are still left when he gathered all the ashes of Elsa's prison vase?

[InsertWordHere]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

If Hook is allowed to become a hero why isn't Regina?  

Post Season 3A Regina is a hero* and I honestly think this is her final test, just like working with Arthur was Hook's final test and Zelena killing Hades was hers. We need to see what she'll do without her love and if she'll become evil again. I think she will choose to handle her pain in a more productive way. Once that's sorted, they can all band together against the show's true villain, Rumpelstiltskin. 

IMO, Regina's redemption counterpart isn't Hook, it's Zelena, and look what the show has done with her in just half a season. 

*Backsliding may occur, but it would honestly be pointless for the show to end with Regina evil. That's not a good story. 

[KAOS Agent]

I'm very confused about why Hades kept the pages and didn't destroy them immediately. Was it because he was obsessed with Zelena and they represented the memories of that magical bike ride? Or maybe it was because as long as the original pages existed, Henry could not rewrite them. It was dumb of him to go to all that trouble to have Liam find and destroy them and then keep them himself.

[Camera One]

He could have kept the pages with that magical bike ride and destroyed everything else.  I still think it's stupid that no Greek myth books discussed the crystal that suddenly made its appearance in this episode.  Any other season, Belle would have waltzed in last minute, "I just found out you can kill gods with that crystal!"

And Dumbass Zeus let Hades keep the broken crystal because...?  He was okay with letting Hades torment the dead who had unfinished business?  They shouldn't have given him that aura of light and goodness.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Dumbass Zeus is probably the guy who gave the holy grail to Merlin and then did nothing to fix the mess that caused. Zeus seems like a real winner.

Edited May 10, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[justmythoughts]

I forgot to mention the crystal dildo... Yeah, sex toy and mortal weapon, two in one, really handy! Zeus was odd! Too young, too useless... Just a white light with some deep voice like "move on Kilkian, you deserve to be where you belong" would have sufice.

And when Hades talked to King Arthur he said "I am the god of death". Well... Others bei g confused is ok... But he should be aware of the difference between death and managing the underworld.

Lastly... I love Regina. I do. Her story with Robin was boring, poorly written. As well ad her redemption. I am not even a mother and I cant imagine the pain of having to send your baby daughter off to prevent her from a curse and meet her only 28 years later. Snowing and Emma lost a life together because of Regina (not even mentioning the villages and guards she killed just because). Yes, she is changing (although her facing some of these souls in the underworld would have helped) but she does not really seem to ubderstand the consequences of HER actions. It is always someone elses fault... Sure, Hades killed Robin. But it is childish to face against the world or Emma. Emma didnt force anyone. Zelena was blindfolded about Hades intentions. Robin and Regina broke into the town house with no plan, no safety concern. It was a chain of events. While Regina dont undetstand that one good deed does not make you a hero deserving the happy forever life (as well as one bad deed does not make you a villain, Charmings, that is for you!) she is going to suffer more and more. Real life is made of moments, some good some bad... So, take this opportunity A&E to show us that Regina is really changing for good. I hope so.

[BoPeeps]

Fun with Captains and Kings was quite enjoyable. Stubble Sandwich indeed! Emma and Hook were genuinely super sweet in their oddly placed reunion. David's dad moment with Emma was a plus. 

The original players hit their dramatic marks very well even surrounded by supremely inept writing, weirdly goofy side characters (THAT was Zeus????) and regurgitate plot themes.

SOOO glad this very mediocre and disjointed arc is over but I have no hopes that A&E or the writers will ever improve.  They are out of originality, laughably poor at details and continuity and continue to run on plot hole riddled, circular paths.  The charisma and talent of some of the actors is the saving grace of this show.  

...So, we lost another man after they pretty much emasculated him and gained another sappy-named blanket-wrapped infant to hinder the advancement of grown-ups' adventure.

On the brighter side, they won't have the iconic Robin Hood legend to totally fuck with anymore.

but of course there is always the laughably obscene dildo crystal to continue in the "fuck with" Dept.

[YaddaYadda]

About Zeus, I didn't really mind him so much just because he was so very different from Hades. I expected him to have a larger role after the casting call went out for him, and they called him "Prince Marcus". I would have wanted a showdown between Hades and Zeus, but at the same time, I thought one line calling Hades misguided explained why he stopped his heart from beating. 

I thought Zeus came off as benevolent, kind and grateful, which was the complete opposite of who Hades. Let's not kid around, if the holy Grail hadn't been "gifted" to humans, none of this would have happened, since we're playing the blame game and all. 

The costume though? Roman? I don't know about that. 

[adam807]

20 hours ago, Curio said:

Did I miss something Cruella said about the story book? I thought she mentioned that she threw the book in the River of Lost Souls, but then it just happened to be sitting in the gargoyle's hands. Why would she put it in a spot so reachable? Why not throw the entire book into the water? Wouldn't that be a much more difficult place to retrieve it from? Then we could have had an epic scene where Hook had to dive into the water to grab the book, having to trust that shady Arthur would pull him back up with the rope, and then he could run into Milah underwater who helps give him the book. The whole staging where Hook awkwardly stood frozen on the stairs while looking at Arthur getting dragged into the water was bad directing.

I decided, based on when we saw that location before, that that's the source of the river of souls, or the observation deck or something. And it's not that easy to get to, what with procuring a boat and the risk of touching the water. So when she said "in the river of souls" she meant "AT the river of souls." But it makes no sense; why not just toss it off the pier?

[LaChavalina]

On May 9, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Arkay said:

I really disliked the entire underworld arc. I thought the "gods" were so underwhelming, for one thing. Some sweet young thing in a toga (looked more Roman than Greek) is Zeus? Hades waits for millennia for an ice crystal that looks like a plastic Christmas icicle decoration from the 99 cent store? And then this trinket is the supremely powerful weapon that can kill an immortal? Come on, props department, you can create a more worthy weapon.

 

I had such a problem with the pacing this entire half season. The idea of bringing a whole bunch of deceased characters back, plus adding new characters, was too much. As a result, some characters that could have had really interesting, multi-episode arcs (like Ruby/Dorothy) got shortchanged and major points (like the ultimate fate of the souls) were left unresolved. What was the point of having one episode on Hercules? And I totally agree about the Olympian crystal. A supposedly powerful weapon that works across realms, and no one's ever heard of it and it lasts one episode (maybe two, now that Rumple has it). OK, then. It would have been better if this was a whole season, and really if it were saved for the final season of the show.

I lost the quote above about Harry Potter, but I totally agree that parts of this episode felt ripped from the Potter films.

When I watched this, I was with my parents. They watched the show back in seasons 1 & 2 but not since. My dad was watching the Zelena/Hades scenes and said, "where did they cast these two? Overactors Anonymous?" :D

Edited May 10, 2016 by LaChavalina

[Camera One]

Not that Zeus would have answered any questions, but it would have been nice to ask some.

ZEUS: I am here to guide you blah blah blah.

HOOK: So............. that was a really ineffective way of dealing with your brother, wasn't it?  

ZEUS: I need time to work out to look this good.

HOOK: And if I hadn't gotten the pages to Emma, what would have happened?

ZEUS: Who cares.  What happens in Storybrooke doesn't affect me.  I was just worried he'd get up here with that crystal thingymajig.

BLUE: Hook!  What are you doing here?

ZEUS: Oh good, you're here, Blue.  The Useless Wise Sages Club Meeting is starting soon.

[KingOfHearts]

Is Hades actually the god of death in Greek mythology, or just god of the Underworld?

[Mari]

Underworld and the dead, I believe, not actually death itself.  He was not in charge of making sure people died, but of the realms their soul went to.   He actually didn't even do the judging, usually--there were others appointed for that.  In certain cases, he would decide punishment or reward.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Mari said:

Underworld and the dead, I believe, not actually death itself.  He was not in charge of making sure people died, but of the realms their soul went to.   He actually didn't even do the judging, usually--there were others appointed for that.  In certain cases, he would decide punishment or reward.

Ok, thanks. Hades mentioned in this episode he was the god of death. Thought that sounded off.

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, shipperx said:

This isnt a zero sum game.  One character's 'happy end' doesn't preclude another's.

Exactly. Emma's happiness is not related to Regina's unhappiness. Her happiness was not bought with Regina's pain. Robin didn't die so that Hook would come back to life. The idea that no one else could be happy while Regina was unhappy was a big part of Regina's problem -- how dare someone have a wedding on the anniversary of Daniel's death. The idea of the curse came from wanting everyone else to be miserable since she was unhappy. She couldn't bear that Snow was happy and falling in love, in spite of everything she'd done to Snow, while she was unhappy, without realizing that Snow is the kind of person who can find happiness in any circumstance, while Regina wallows in her misery and avoids her opportunities to be happy. Regina seemed to have learned last season that she's responsible for writing her own happy ending. This will be a test of that.

Not to mention that Regina actually killed one guy Emma was getting involved with and Regina's sister (whom Regina herself sided with against Robin, even though Zelena killed Robin's wife and raped him) was largely responsible for the death of another man Emma loved, who had fathered her child. Regina doesn't have a lot of room to complain about Emma being happy.

I've been thinking about the Moe and Belle situation, and while his attitude is a little heavy-handed, I can kind of see his point because if anyone needs an intervention, it's Belle. Putting it in real-world terms, if your daughter was in love with an addict, and although he'd never directly hurt her, he was known to be violent and had hurt other people in her life (including you) and she was often in danger because his pursuit of his addiction tended to leave him with enemies who targeted her. And if the addict was willing to do absolutely anything in pursuit of his addiction, and if he'd shown that he would always put his addiction first, and if he'd lied about having changed while still pursuing his addiction behind her back, and she had a bad habit of leaving him and then taking him back when he lied to her about changing, and if he'd been clean and had chosen to go back to using, and if he'd recently announced that he was never going to stop using and she would have to accept him as he is. Well, then if she had gone into hiding because she was targeted by yet another person going after the addict, I as her father might be really reluctant to tell her it was all over and she was safe while the addict was still around and in her life. In Moe's case, the fact that Rumple couldn't wake her was a sign that it wasn't true love, that he wasn't willing to put her first ahead of his desire for power, and the fact that Rumple tried threatening him was a really bad sign. It would be a test of Rumple's love for her vs. his desire to possess her if he was willing to get out of her life in order to give her a chance to live. If all he wants is to have her back, regardless of the harm that might do to her, then it's not love, it's possession.

[Mathius]

I feel I need to give some kudos to Merida in this episode.  This is the second time she's been decent on this show (first one being "The Bear King").  Her giggling line about drowning in books was funny, and I really liked her line when seeing Arthur's corpse: "Always thought I'd be the one to put 'im in 'is grave, but seein' 'im now, I can' help but feel sorry for 'im".  Though...really, Merida? Wearing blue at a funeral?

Edited May 10, 2016 by Mathius

[RadioGirl27]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

Is Hades actually the god of death in Greek mythology, or just god of the Underworld?

Hades is the god of the Underworld, and Thanatos is the personification of death.

[Mitch]

Good episode as far as this season goes. They used the supporting "fictional" supporting characters as just that, supporting and adding to the movement of the plot without stopping things to see a boring back story, etc. This is how the show should have handled it all along...I have no idea whey they gave poor Cruella and Ursula that stupid back story of "falling" into a vortex like Lucy and Ethel.. both of them should have been there all along, as the rest of the villains semi villains instead of inventing more ridiculous vortex, etc. to get them to Storybrooke..I would have been funny to see Cruella's car in the back of a scene driving down a street or Rump on his phone "Yes, Cruella, I have your furs in the shop...I don't think you would need them at the Animal Shelter...ah, you quit after the curse broke did ya, well you have to pay 25 years rent on the furs to get em back...While that is quite a stimulating offer, I think I will pass, I need cold hard cash, you can take that to the wharf I am sure there are some lonely sailors willing to spare a buck for her dubious charms" Speaking of Cruella, I want her back, sitting in Granny's drinking a martini and commenting on the stupid plot points taking place.

As usual they have no idea how magic works in their universe. Emma has been the boss lately, even zapping Rump off..but off all a sudden, Zelena is more powerful? How many protection spells have been broken, but Zelena's cant be..even by the savior? And what did Emma do while Zelena went back inside...sat there with that sad confused bewildered mug on? That doesnt seem like Emma, who truth be told, is one of the worst saviors around. 

The problems with this show is that they have to show everything, even if it involves ridiculous CGI and bad casting ala Zeus.  I think they should have left it more ambiguous...Hook walks into the light, a voice says, "You shall go to the place you truly belong.. and zap...he gets popped back into the cemetary.

And I know they have a very vocal fan base but really, I think Hook did indeed have more chemistry with Arthur..and I liked their little adventure and I liked that Arthur had a semi reform....(lol at Cruella..."A meat in a stubble sandwich" family show indeed, where are the protests on that!!!)  Zelena on the other hand had to be the quickest reform on earth. She is all of a sudden calling Regina her "Sista!" ..this show doesn't really know how to moderate...you are eihter a stupid ineffectual "hero" or a snide villain. Speaking of family names...why in the world is dimbulb Henry calling Rump "Grand dad?" Do they have a realtionship? Yes, I know he is your grandfather Henry, but its not like he took you to the petting zoo when you were three.

Henry "I destroyed magic," if only Henry, if only.

 

 

[kili]

Quote

ZEUS: Oh good, you're here, Blue.  The Useless Wise Sages Club Meeting is starting soon.

BLUE: Merlin should be here any second. He just stopped to pick up some donuts. 

Quote

I've been thinking about the Moe and Belle situation, and while his attitude is a little heavy-handed, I can kind of see his point because if anyone needs an intervention, it's Belle.

I always think of those people who used to kidnap their kids from those scary cults (like Jonestown) and reprogram them. He is being controlling, but it must be so hard for him to watch. And the way Rumple threatened him with that cane makes it very clear that he's not reformed at all. That he would have no problem harming everybody and everyone to get what he wants.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

As usual they have no idea how magic works in their universe. Emma has been the boss lately, even zapping Rump off..but off all a sudden, Zelena is more powerful? How many protection spells have been broken, but Zelena's cant be..even by the savior? 

Usually with strong protection spells, it has taken Emma and Regina's combined magic to break through. Emma had no intentions of fighting or hurting Zelena. She only wanted to get her attention and hand her the pages that showed how Hades could be killed. 

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The costume though? Roman? I don't know about that. 

Even the gods get with changing fashions. I presume Mt. Olympus hasn't proceeded beyond the Roman era, where the Underworld has caught up to the modern 1980s. ;-) 

[maryle]

I watched again  and somes conclusion.

1) lt will definitively a rare episode I will love  to rewatch.

2 Except,  for the Zades and Regina  scene on the second rewatch it is really cheesy and the emotion should be high.
But, I do not know if it the acting or the direction but, the scene seem more from a campy soap!
I realized the only time I felt something was for Zelena. Maybe it is because I like her character better, do not really know.

3) I also understand that the final arc for Emma (similar 3b) will probably just  be about not to feel guilty for everything that happen and do really enjoy life without feeling so responsable.
After feeling guilty again (Robin) and for everything that happened she will still accept to be happy with KillIan ( the famous Kiss lift scene ) and not put her live on hold. 

But for me this Emma was never responsible for people  coming with her in the Underworld.

I mean, if  my friend lost her husband in the desert and me and my boyfriend volonteer  to look for him with her despite a storm is coming up.  My boyfriend died while searching it is not my friend's fault and I should not make her feel guilty. We choose to go in a desert in dangerous condition after all.

I hope it is the last time we see Emma feeling guilty of this kind of consequence. A   hero and leader who always feel guilt is a weak leader.
 A captain cannot feel guilt everytime he lost a soldier .

[Mitch]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Usually with strong protection spells, it has taken Emma and Regina's combined magic to break through. Emma had no intentions of fighting or hurting Zelena. She only wanted to get her attention and hand her the pages that showed how Hades could be killed. 

Even the gods get with changing fashions. I presume Mt. Olympus hasn't proceeded beyond the Roman era, where the Underworld has caught up to the modern 1980s. ;-) 

Okay, that makes sense. I liked Emma being a bad ass and throwing Rump back and him taking it...(lol on her breaking up Moe and Rump's fight..."You, get out of here!") so thought it was weird that Zelena could get the best of her....(but why didn't Regina leave directions to the undeground tunnel in case the rest of the group needed it? Also who has been taking care of those "secret" tunnels all these years. I can't see Regina going down and changing light bulbs.

[AudienceofOne]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Exactly. Emma's happiness is not related to Regina's unhappiness. Her happiness was not bought with Regina's pain. Robin didn't die so that Hook would come back to life. The idea that no one else could be happy while Regina was unhappy was a big part of Regina's problem -- how dare someone have a wedding on the anniversary of Daniel's death. The idea of the curse came from wanting everyone else to be miserable since she was unhappy.

I have a things for kid's shows. I probably shouldn't admit it but I watched House of Anubis (I also watched all of Het Huis Anubis, apropos of nothing). Regina reminds me of this character in it called Joy. Joy's thing is that something bad happened to her and she had to be gone from school. When she comes back, her best friend is rooming with a new girl and the guy she likes is dating her. The new girl is also the protagonist of the show. So suddenly she comes back and everything's different and she feels excluded and insecure. And the writers want us to empathise with her - if only the gang let Joy in then she'd be better. Everything she's doing is because they've excluded her.

The problem is that Joy is the type of person who cannot feel good about themselves until they drag somebody else down first. She doesn't want to just be included, she needs somebody else to be excluded first. She needs to feel as though she's better and more popular than somebody else. And she never ever apologises for her actions. In the last episode of Season 2, she instinctively does something brave. And everybody starts gushing about how heroic she was and how brave she was and how amazing she is. Meanwhile, our protagonist who's done nothing but be heroic and selfless and self-sacrificing for two years thanks her for being so brave and heroic and never gets an apology from her for her past behaviour. Ever.

I loathed that character and actively rooted for her to die. And I often feel the same way about Regina. Her motivations are similar - she wants to be the centre, the focus. And she's never really shown contrition for her past actions. She made a big grand bold decision to be better from now on but never gave other people credit for not becoming a supervillian first. Because in Regina's eyes, she has to be the hero now and other characters are forced to actively recognise her heroism.

It's why Hook will always work for me so much better. Because no matter what good he does, Hook will always believe that Emma's the real hero because she's always been the hero. Even when she was the Dark One, she was still a hero. (And I love that no matter what actually happens on screen he always credits it to Emma, every time). And he gets that it takes a lifetime to be the hero, not a couple of grand gestures and people stroking your ego. Regina wakes up and says "I'm redeemed now and am a hero". Hook wakes up and says, "I will strive today to be a hero like I did yesterday and like I will tomorrow. And I may not succeed. But I will keep trying."

And that's why I find Regina's 'redemption' arc tiresome. And why I find the writers giving those beats to her over Emma tiresome.

[MedievalGirl]

8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

About Zeus, I didn't really mind him so much just because he was so very different from Hades. I expected him to have a larger role after the casting call went out for him, and they called him "Prince Marcus". I would have wanted a showdown between Hades and Zeus, but at the same time, I thought one line calling Hades misguided explained why he stopped his heart from beating. 

I thought Zeus came off as benevolent, kind and grateful, which was the complete opposite of who Hades. Let's not kid around, if the holy Grail hadn't been "gifted" to humans, none of this would have happened, since we're playing the blame game and all. 

The costume though? Roman? I don't know about that. 

Zeus's clothing was an odd combination. It looked like a Greek chiton with a Roman military belt. 
The offness of the columns where Zeus met Killian worked for me though. It needed to look unreal. 

[Helena Dax]

I only felt indifference for this Robin, but he didn't deserve such a cruel fate. I mean, being dead is bad, but having your soul destroyed for good is too much. He wasn't a villain, after all. 

But omg, Hook and Emma! Loved, loved, loved that moment! Their kisses, their joy! I think Emma's going to be more open with her feelings for him now. The way she was kissing him... Until now, I've always had the impression that Emma was still holding herself back a little bit. That she was a bit afraid of loving him so much, of needing him so much. But in this scene, Emma wasn't afraid at all, she was embracing that love without reservations, with all her soul. And it was beautiful.

The show's villains should start thinking bigger than ruling Storybrooke, js. 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Helena Dax