S05.E21: Last Rites

[Jul 68]

55 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I only felt indifference for this Robin, but he didn't deserve such a cruel fate. I mean, being dead is bad, but having your soul destroyed for good is too much. He wasn't a villain, after all.

Unless you are one of the rich people he stole from.

I tease. Yes, he wasn't a villain, but they had to find a way to make him dead-dead so that OQers wouldn't jump up and down for the writers to find a way to resurrect him.

[Camera One]

I don't watch any promos, so I'm going into next episode with no preconceptions.  But if I was a casual viewer, I don't know if I would be too motivated to tune in next week.  There's no pending threat, except Rumple picking up that piece of the crystal, but we have no idea what his plan is from here on out, except to wake up Belle.  Yes, Regina and Zelena will be grieving or reacting, but hardly must-see-TV.  The arc was basically resolved, and we still have 2 hours left.  

I don't want to know what happens next week, but I just find it interesting how understated the "cliffhanger" was.

[Randomosity]

Wow, remind me not to make the mistake of reading other recap sites and their comment threads. Yikes. You'd think Regina was Mother Teresa.

I get that the writers favor her redemption or whatever, but where "Wicked" (both the novel and the show, because they're very different) managed to really put a different spin on the backstory and make Elphaba/the Wicked Witch a truly sympathetic and misunderstood version of a classic character, they've not managed to do that with Regina here. As has been said many times above, she performed some downright evil acts and has shown little to no actual remorse, rather just a desire to be a 'hero' with a 'happy ending'. I just don't see how people are SO in her favor and are so indignant about the things that haven't quite worked out her way. Nevermind that on top of that, they see Emma as some greedy, selfish child who never has anything go wrong for her (?!).

I just don't get it. Are they watching a different show? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I don't watch any promos, so I'm going into next episode with no preconceptions.  But if I was a casual viewer, I don't know if I would be too motivated to tune in next week.  There's no pending threat, except Rumple picking up that piece of the crystal, but we have no idea what his plan is from here on out, except to wake up Belle.  Yes, Regina and Zelena will be grieving or reacting, but hardly must-see-TV.  The arc was basically resolved, and we still have 2 hours left.  

I don't want to know what happens next week, but I just find it interesting how understated the "cliffhanger" was.

That's kind of the case for most of their arcs. I'm definitely more interested to see Regina's and Zelena's reactions to what happened in this episode than I was for Hook and Swan's time adventure or the reversed personalities at the end of 4B.

Oh, and your post about Zeus is pretty accurate to how the gods felt about mortals even in the myths. They don't care about the average person's problems. Maybe a hero or devoted who worshipped them, but otherwise they couldn't care less.

[Camera One]

That is certainly true of the Greek Gods.  I read a story about the Trojan War and they were basically watching from above and meddling based on their own self interests.  Though you'd think if they were threatened by Hades, they could easily have appeared as a vision to simply tell them that Hades has that crystal without the complication with the "missing pages".

I was frustrated for a moment when they had Emma put aside the Storybook that appeared beside her suddenly.  (Unless it was already there before?)

Edited May 11, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

21 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Although I really did love the Emma and Hook parts of the episode, they didn't treat Outlaw Queen very well. It made no sense at all that Emma needed to stay behind alone at Robin's grave.  That should have been Regina's moment and their fans were robbed of it because the writers suck. A lot.  We cheer mediocrity because most of the time they are reaching for subpar.  All they had to do was have Regina stay with Robin's casket and Emma go to Hook's grave and then they get to have Regina part from Robin as Emma is reunited with Hook and parallel that. 

I never thought about that, but I suppose it is a little strange that after Robin's funeral, Regina goes off-screen and we're left with Emma at Robin's grave and then Hook appears.  I suppose thinking about that from an OQ perspective, they should have given Regina a moment alone there.  As many people suggested, Emma's reunion with Hook could have occurred in a scene at Hook's own grave.

On another note, Hades had no problem using a phone, which was weird.  They could have cut that pointless scene where Hades refuses a deal with Rumple, to include the deleted scene when Robin sees Roland after he comes back, and has a talk with Little John.  Emma going to Rumple for help and Rumple blaming her for the predicament could have been cut too.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

I am completely and utterly baffled by all the poor little woobie Woegina bullshit out there, and the corresponding Emma hate that goes along with it. I dunno if it's got something to do with the rise of so-called "Reality" TV, or too much lead in the water, or what. Regina has been the cause of so much suffering, including Emma's, that she's got to face some kind of justice/retribution/karmic payback eventually. As much as I despise her, I'd still like to see her finally make the connection between the pain she feels and the pain she's caused, when other people's suffering becomes as real to her as her own. Then and only then will I truly buy her redemption.

[KAOS Agent]

I have to say that no matter what I thought about the overall episode or how easily I can cut the entire storyline to ribbons, the scene of Emma & Hook being reunited was full of such joy and just so damn happy (a rarity in this show recently) that it genuinely brightened my day. It made me happy to watch. It's not even so much that I care about which characters were involved, but that such joy is infectious and it made me feel good. The last time the show had a scene that contained this much joy was the Elsa & Anna reunion. I don't even particularly care for Anna, but I've watched that scene several times when I needed a pick me up and it always worked. 

[Camera One]

I liked Emma coming home and getting to talk briefly with Snow, and I also liked Emma talking to Charming.  I think each of them got 2 short convos with Emma separately, and that's a pretty big deal for this show.  Of course, it's nothing compared to the amount of time that other couplings like Regina/Zelena have gotten in the last few episodes, but still... you have to take the crumbs when you get them.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Looks like Killian came back to life right on top of his grave, after all.

[Camera One]

I was actually half expecting his hand to come out of the soil or the gravestone to fall over when Emma was standing in front of it.  

So Gods have the power to re-constitute a dead body?  It's a case where you really don't want to think too deeply.  Would it have killed them to say Hook's body had been preserved?

Edited May 11, 2016 by Camera One

[Randomosity]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Looks like Killian came back to life right on top of his grave, after all.

Good catch by whoever runs that site! I just went back and watched the two cemetery scenes; there is further confirmation. When Emma crouches down with the rum, behind her there are wreathes of white flowers visible in the distance (before Robin is dead!). They are off to the side of Robin's grave later when Snow is walking away and in the background of Emma and Killian's smooches (right behind them in the view with the camera behind Killian). I also think that the scenes were possibly originally meant to be closer together or just poorly orchestrated in filming, because if you look behind Emma at the very end of the scene at Killian's grave, there is a flurry of blurry movement off in the distance. I even noticed it the first time around, because I thought it might be Killian alive behind her already. When it wasn't, I wrote it off as wind moving trees or something. But now going back, it certainly looks like there are mourners for Robin before he is even dead off in the distance behind Emma.  I get there are filming schedules/constraints, but... Silly OUAT :P Or maybe she originally said her final goodbye after he'd helped with the pages, as she was on her way to Robin's funeral, but scenes were rearranged?

Also of note in re-watching... there is no way Snow (and possibly others from before that as well, but at the very least her) was out of earshot/view already when the magic whoosh startled Emma and brought Killian back. She should have a) felt the magic, b) even if she didn't because of *hand wave* only the pair of true loves can feel it, she should have HEARD Emma being all squeaky/yelpy/giggly and a man's voice. Should we just imagine that she saw the reunion and just lurked behind a tree saying "D'aww..."?

[darkestboy]

This almost felt like a finale. Arthur died. Robin died. Hades died. Hook came back to life and reunited with Emma. Quite a lot happened here.

Robin's death was okay but as I was never attached to him and Regina as a couple, it wasn't quite as impactful as it was trying to be but it did have it's moments.

I was happy for Hades to kill off Arthur early in the episode and I actually didn't mind the Arthur/Hook team up as well. Maybe Arthur can do some good in the underworld or whatever.

I knew Hook was coming back, so having Zeus be the one to do it worked well enough.

Also knew that Zelena was going to be the one to take down Hades. As for Rumple getting an advantage at the end, well that was business as usual though.

Overall a very strong and engaging episode though, 8/10

[InsertWordHere]

3 hours ago, Randomosity said:

Also of note in re-watching... there is no way Snow (and possibly others from before that as well, but at the very least her) was out of earshot/view already when the magic whoosh startled Emma and brought Killian back. She should have a) felt the magic, b) even if she didn't because of *hand wave* only the pair of true loves can feel it, she should have HEARD Emma being all squeaky/yelpy/giggly and a man's voice. Should we just imagine that she saw the reunion and just lurked behind a tree saying "D'aww..."?

That's what I've been imagining.

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

So Gods have the power to re-constitute a dead body?  It's a case where you really don't want to think too deeply.  Would it have killed them to say Hook's body had been preserved?

If they had done that, then they would have still had to explain the healing of both the throat wound and the gut wound though, and that's the type of thing they just don't want to take the time to explain.

[Scovies]

19 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

That's what I've been imagining.

If they had done that, then they would have still had to explain the healing of both the throat wound and the gut wound though, and that's the type of thing they just don't want to take the time to explain.

Also, if Zeus is so all-powerful and can restore someone's life like that, why exactly did he need the help of a couple of mortals to defeat Hades?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, Scovies said:

Also, if Zeus is so all-powerful and can restore someone's life like that, why exactly did he need the help of a couple of mortals to defeat Hades?

How did Rumple put it?  Your questions are irrelevant, or something like that.  ;)

[InsertWordHere]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Your questions are irrelevant, or something like that.  ;)

Pointless. It's all pointless.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, InsertWordHere said:

Pointless. It's all pointless.

Thank you.  And so true!  Lol.

[Delphi]

16 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I only felt indifference for this Robin, but he didn't deserve such a cruel fate. I mean, being dead is bad, but having your soul destroyed for good is too much. 

It took me awhile to recall where I saw that before,  but it just clicked.  On Angel when Fred became Illyria.  Basically they could have just killed her,  heroes die all the time,  but no,  they had to drive the point home with the whole "her soul was consumed by the fire of resurrection,  there's nothing left to come back. "  I personally never cared about Fred but the whole thing seemed way over the top and overly cruel and unnecessary.   Just say their dead, the character doesn't deserve to be wiped from existence. 

[kili]

Quote

Also, if Zeus is so all-powerful and can restore someone's life like that, why exactly did he need the help of a couple of mortals to defeat Hades?

Fanwank: When Hades had no heart, he could not be killed - he was a heartless god (maybe all gods are inherently heartless - it would certainly explain their actions). Gods cannot die. Once he had a heart, he could not be killed by a god for the same reason he could not kill mortals when he did not have his heart (gods can't kill mortals? Or maybe they don't kill at all).

I firmly of the believe that Zelena and Hades did not have a true love kiss (he was playing her the entire time, so no way does that count) so I'm running with the 'Beast"-like theory that Hades had to get a mortal to fall in love with him and kiss him to turn him into a god-mortal hybrid with magic. Once he was this god-mortal hybrid, he could kill people and gods, but gods still could not kill him

Killing is dark magic and we learned from useless Merlin, that he could not kill without going dark. Killing somebody with the magic the gods have is a binary switch from good to bad. So, perhaps Zeus would really have liked to do something about Hades, but he doesn't like wearing black so he never did. Zeus is Merlin in a skirt.

[Bishop]

On 5/10/2016 at 8:55 PM, XrystalPond said:

If you ever write fiction professionally, you will get notes that say you need to torture your characters. You have to have characters go through internal and external conflict. And you have to give a character what they want in the worst way. 

I agree on that point.  I'm not really a "Why can't we just watch them be happy?" kind of person. Yes, I can take it for an episode or two, but then I want right back to the drama because the Charmings were shown to be blissfully happy, cuddling, having babies, and they have been written to be boring because of it.  I like them in adventure mode.  Torture and pain breeds drama which for me, breeds interest.  I can take a little bit of the quiet times, but then I want things to get dicey again.

On 5/10/2016 at 8:59 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I try not to resent other characters, just the writers.  Frankly, the writing for Hook is leagues better than Regina.  Side by side, its really strange that they are better at writing Hook's redemption that Regina's.  I think that if they had made a few different decisions with Regina's storyline, it would have made a huge difference.

I couldn't quote your entire post, but you made excellent points.  Hook's redemption story has been fantastic, imo, because it took YEARS to tell.  Since he first arrived in season two until the end of season five, the audience has watched him be a villain, soften, want to change, try to change, change, fall in love, receive respect, etc.  We also saw him take responsibility for his actions, even admitting that HE was the villain regarding Rumple and how he treated him and not the other way around.  That was a huge statement.  Throw in the fact that he told Emma about the rings he wears for the lives he took, first as trophies, and now to remind him of what he once did.  Then there is also his episode of not feeling worthy to get a second chance at life.  The audience was able to watch his growth and struggle and then cheer him on.  The writers tend to regress constantly with Regina, and she doesn't show regret or sympathy for her past evil crimes which are CONSIDERABLE.  She gets snarky and sarcastic and is a bit of the spoiled child.  Yes, she had an evil mother who killed her first love, but she took 28 years(!!) of Emma's life, tried to murder her family and cursed an entire town and all the people in it for years.  That's just three things off the top of my head.  Forget that she murdered her father in order to have power and enact her revenge.  Counter that with Hook killing his father.  He, at first, was there to help his father escape and to forgive him until he realized that his father was going to do the exact same thing to his new son that was done to him, and he reacted in a fit of emotional pain and rage.  (I'm wondering if Hook's step brother will ever show up again.)  

The idea of watching ANOTHER round of Poor Me Regina, and "I resent everyone else's happiness" is going to be tiresome.  The writers need to show some growth and take the time to actually SHOW the growth.  Show not tell.

On 5/10/2016 at 8:59 PM, 3dog said:

Rewatching the scene with Zeus and Hook. Zeus is such a casting misfire. And not even necessary in his only scene. He tells Hook, "I'm here to escort you onward.... It's time to take you where you belong." Then he stands there, neither escorting nor taking anyone anywhere, and Hook walks off alone. Um, thanks?

See, I don't see it that way.  I'll admit that I thought Zeus was young when I first saw him, but he had a commanding and confident way of talking with Hook, very old world.  It makes more sense to me that Zeus would be young and handsome, although I can see him being a bit older.  That being said, I didn't think the actor was bad at all.  As for him escorting Hook, I realized after a second watching that he basically walked Hook a few feet forward, and then Hook was zapped straight down to earth.  If you notice, Hook was as stunned to see Emma as she was to see him.  In the instant that that beam came down behind Emma, it was the exact same moment when Hook was zapped from Zeus' presence and down to earth.  Zeus basically said, "I am sending you where you belong," Hook took a step forward into a light and was zapped down to Emma.  He had no idea that's where he was going, and he looked stunned to see her.  That's why he said "I guess Zeus rewarded me by sending me back."  

On 5/10/2016 at 10:18 PM, dr pepper said:

and again, Killian is back on Earth in a new body, so why doesn't he have two hands?

I think Killian is in the same body as always; the casket in his grave is empty.  If Zeus can zap Killian back down to earth with a beating heart, he can certainly reanimate his body as well.  As for his hand, someone else a few pages back made a good point of saying that the hook should be a reminder of his past misdeeds.  I, too, would have preferred two hands rather than the hook, but I can live with it.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Bishop

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Scovies said:

Also, if Zeus is so all-powerful and can restore someone's life like that, why exactly did he need the help of a couple of mortals to defeat Hades?

On my end, I don't think it had anything to do with him not being able to kill/defeat Hades, but had to do with him not wanting to kill his brother. Cursing him, and stopping his heart was the best he could do without having to kill him. That took away his ability to drag anyone to the UW against their will, he couldn't harm anyone in the Above World, and it seemed to limit his power. Plus who could ever love someone like Hades enough to give him a TLK?

Zeus called Hades his misguided brother, so it seemed there was still some affection there.

It's when he regained what Zeus took from him, that letting him live was no longer an option.

Total headcanon, but it works in my head.

[Rumsy4]

A fan was able to get more of Hades's backstory from the storybook. It's pretty cool of them. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Spoiler Thread TheGreenKnight said:

Quote

I agree. I don't even mind Hook and Emma, but Regina's reaction isn't surprising at all considering the ball started rolling because Emma wanted to bring her love interest back from the dead. In 4B, Regina has to accept that you can't go against fate and give yourself a happy ending, and yet Emma has one of the most basic rules about life (that you die) broken in her favor.

IMO, Emma didn't go against Fate to get her happy ending.  She tried.  She failed.  She left the Underworld without her love.  She was prepared to move on without him.  And Hook was prepared to move on without her.  

Furthermore, one of the most basic rules of life (that you die) wasn't broken in Emma's favor.  It's just coincidence that she benefits.  It was broken in Hook's favor.  Because of what HE did.  Not because of anything Emma did.  

Robin died because of what HE did.  Maybe this is another life lesson Regina should learn to accept.

[TheGreenKnight]

Well, the only reason Hook would've wanted to come back is for Emma's sake, so the rule being broken is just as much for her as for him.

And whether or not Emma actually succeeded in trying to change fate doesn't make much difference.

[Randomosity]

Emma's ball started rolling when Emma decided to go get Hook back. Regina's (and Robin's) ball started rolling when they decided of their own volition to go with Emma.

Perhaps Regina's lesson this time needs to be that trying to be heroic/helpful doesn't automatically mean 'happily ever after'. Choices have consequences.

[Rumsy4]

Regina already had more time with Robin because she cheated Fate in 5A twice. The first time when she asked Emma to use Dark Magic to save him. The second time with the hand-hold of friendship. Other people don't need to be miserable because it didn't last for her. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Who is asking for other people to be miserable? All I'm saying is Regina's bitter and/or angry reaction to his revival at her True Love's funeral would not be undeserved. Voicing her emotions would be a natural occurrence in this situation? Of course, others will say she has no right to feel any way about it because XYZ, but anything Emma might hold against her about the past she apparently forgave her for seasons ago.

Edited May 11, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Serena]

Voicing her emotions is normal. Being upset, angry at fate, etc. is also normal.

Spoiler

But when her emotions are, "This makes me want to murder.", and she thinks it's appropriate to express them to her "friend" and wants cookies for not acting on her impulse

, that makes her a psychopath.

Emma spent all of 5A basically knowing Hook was living on borrowed time, and all of 5B with Hook dead while Robin was just fine. And she was upset, sad, etc. But she didn't take it out on others.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Serena

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

but anything Emma might hold against her about the past she apparently forgave her for seasons ago.

Right.  So if Emma's forgiven Regina, what gives Regina the right to hold any grudge against Emma for anything?

Spoiler

Wanting to rip out her boyfriend's throat, even if she didn't act on it, is the sign of a BIG grudge!

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Right.  So if Emma's forgiven Regina, what gives Regina the right to hold any grudge against Emma for anything?

  Reveal hidden contents

Wanting to rip out her boyfriend's throat, even if she didn't act on it, is the sign of a BIG grudge!

A grudge implies she's bringing up something from the past, when she's reacting to the present plot developments.

Spoiler

As for her feeling like she could murder Hook, let's be honest that it is a normal psychopathic reaction for a character struggling with a history of being a psychopath.

[pezgirl7]

I think this episode would have been great, if I hadn't of been so spoiled. Some of the super emotional, surprising scenes fell a bit flat for me because I knew what was going to happen. I still enjoyed the episode though. I still don't like how they killed Robin, and seeing little Roland at the funeral was sad. That's probably the last we'll see of that cutie. 

I also didn't like the casting for Zeus. I was expecting someone older, and more impressive looking. Everything from his hair, to his slim build, to his costume felt wrong to me. At least he didn't have Zeus' cheesy costume from The Immortals movie. Although if he looked like Luke Evans, I wouldn't complain.

I was hoping they would explain that Hades somehow faked the TRL kiss with Zelena, but since it was apparently real, even though he was deceiving Zelena, and because she was able to kill him so easily, I couldn't care less if Hook and Emma ever get a TRL. That might change next season. :P

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

A grudge implies she's bringing up something from the past, when she's reacting to the present plot developments.

  Reveal hidden contents

As for her feeling like she could murder Hook, let's be honest that it is a normal psychopathic reaction for a character struggling with a history of being a psychopath.

A grudge is not always about something that happened in the distant past.  It could be due to a recent development.  Like this.  And anyway, isn't something always from the past as soon as it happens?  ;) (Hakuna Matata!)

As for the other -

Spoiler

yeah, I always like my heroes with a side of psychopathic tendencies.

[Bishop]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From the Spoiler Thread TheGreenKnight said:

IMO, Emma didn't go against Fate to get her happy ending.  She tried.  She failed.  She left the Underworld without her love.  She was prepared to move on without him.  And Hook was prepared to move on without her.  

Furthermore, one of the most basic rules of life (that you die) wasn't broken in Emma's favor.  It's just coincidence that she benefits.  It was broken in Hook's favor.  Because of what HE did.  Not because of anything Emma did.  

Exactly.  Hook was resurrected NOT because of anything Emma did but because of what Hook did in the end. Zeus said exactly that to Hook after he stepped into the light - because of Hook's actions, the people above were able to defeat Hades.  Hook couldn't move on from the Underworld as long as he knew Hades had gotten out and that Emma and her family were at risk.  Instead of thinking of himself, he put Emma first.  So his reward was his actions AND Hook should never have been in the UW to begin with considering he never chose to be a Dark One.  I think that played into Zeus' decision as well (jmo of course).  Regina has more work to do in that her first reaction to her own pain is to hurt someone else.  That was not Emma's reaction when Hook died.  Even when she confronted Gold, it wasn't "I'm going to kill you," It was "You're going to help me."  

I think I would feel more loss for Regina if I felt she and Robin were a true love pairing, and I just never got that vibe from them.  Even Regina's reaction to his death was "okay."  I mean she left his body to go talk to Zelena and Hades - and no sobbing either.  I do think Regina deserves a true love, but if the writers want me to believe it, then they need to devote way more time to the audience in selling it.  I think the reason CS works so damn well is because theirs has been a slow-burn romance fraught with drama, tragedy, joy, heroism, all of it.  Robin and Regina haven't had any of that, imo,, and the writers wasted a huge storyline by giving Zelena the "mother-of-his-child" plot twist.  I always felt the Regina/Robin story was more about Zelena/Regina because the character of Zelena was inserted into their love story.

1 hour ago, Randomosity said:

Emma's ball started rolling when Emma decided to go get Hook back. Regina's (and Robin's) ball started rolling when they decided of their own volition to go with Emma.

Perhaps Regina's lesson this time needs to be that trying to be heroic/helpful doesn't automatically mean 'happily ever after'. Choices have consequences.

Agreed.  Emma did not ask anyone to come with her into hte UW to get Hook back, and she failed at that mission.  She was fully willing to accept his death and live a life without him.  Hook garnered his own freedom in the end, but Emma HAD lost him and was willing to move on, and she never blamed Regina or anyone else for Hook's death.  Heck, Hook didn't even blame Arthur in the UW for him slicing his neck with Excalibur which doomed him to death in the first place.  

53 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

Who is asking for other people to be miserable? All I'm saying is Regina's bitter and/or angry reaction to his revival at her True Love's funeral would not be undeserved. Voicing her emotions would be a natural occurrence in this situation? Of course, others will say she has no right to feel any way about it because XYZ, but anything Emma might hold against her about the past she apparently forgave her for seasons ago.

It's okay for Regina to be angry and even resentful, but to wish that she could rip his heart out is a bit much.  I wonder now if she's going to be all pissy everytime she sees Hook because that will tick me off.  I'm hoping the writers will build some real character growth for Regina this coming season and not spend episode after episode rehashing the past or regressing the character.  I don't want to see anymore "one-step forward and two steps back" with Regina anymore.  She IS a better person now.  The writers should build on that for next season.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Bishop

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Regina already had more time with Robin because she cheated Fate in 5A twice. The first time when she asked Emma to use Dark Magic to save him. The second time with the hand-hold of friendship. Other people don't need to be miserable because it didn't last for her. 

And we've already seen the shoe on the other foot -- during all the present-day parts of 5A, Emma knew that she'd saved Robin's life, at risk to her own soul, and knew that Robin had been saved from fate again, while Hook was more or less already dead and lost to her unless she managed to find a way to separate him from the Darkness and heal his unhealable wound. Even so, in spite of being the Dark One, she wasn't all pissy and resentful of Regina for getting to have her back-from-the-dead boyfriend while her own boyfriend was lost to her.

[Mari]

37 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

 Even so, in spite of being the Dark One, she wasn't all pissy and resentful of Regina for getting to have her back-from-the-dead boyfriend while her own boyfriend was lost to her.

Well, yes, but Regina feels things deeply.  In her soul.  

Emma just has regular feelings.  You can't expect Emma to react the same way someone who feels things deeply in her soul would feel.

[OnceUponAJen]

Feeling strongly is one thing, punishing people because you feel strongly is something else.

[KAOS Agent]

So I was watching the Arthur/Hook questing part again and Hook talks about how the last time he'd been in Hades chamber it was spent "at the end of a lash" which I caught in my original viewing and thought it was interesting that they described some of the torture Hook had suffered from Hades. What I missed was that Arthur then picked up and spent several seconds looking at said lash, which incidentally wasn't simply a one tailed whip, but a cat o' nine tails. It's interesting that the show spent a tiny bit of time reminding the audience that Hook suffered greatly under Hades even though we haven't seen the physical effects of that since the fourth episode of 5B.

Edited May 12, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[YaddaYadda]

4 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

So I was watching the Arthur/Hook questing part again and Hook talks about how the last time he'd been in Hades chamber it was spent "at the end of a lash" which I caught in my original viewing and thought it was interesting that they described some of the torture Hook had suffered from Hades. What I missed was that Arthur then picked up and spent several seconds looking at said lash, which incidentally wasn't simply a one tailed whip, but a cat o' nine tails. It's interesting that the show spent a tiny bit of time reminding the audience that Hook suffered greatly under Hades even though we haven't seen the physical effects of that since the fourth episode of 5B.

And they basically confirmed that Hades himself did some of the torturing in his throne room which doubled as torture chamber depending on Hades' moods.

I was actually surprised they even confirmed any of this.

Arthur called Cruella a two tone witch which made me laugh.

[YaddaYadda]

4 minutes ago, XrystalPond said:

I'm still laughing that other than Henry saying they thought Gold brought back Belle. Nobody went to check? Way to be heroes guys. You don't leave a man/woman behind. Do they know she is under a sleeping curse? Has Zelena shared that bit of information?

When Belle shows up again, I dare one of the characters to say that they thought she was just some place reading.

I thought that showed how very little fucks everyone gives about Rumple, and sadly by extension Belle. We think they got back, but we're not sure. Henry didn't even seem to be sad about it either.

My reaction to that was "wow" because while I get why no one really cares about Rumple, and even hates him, Henry has always been a little different. Plus Henry called Belle to tell her what happened after she left, and that's the reason she came back, and decided that she wanted to be with her husband. So that phone call threw her right back into a warped relationship.

Henry needs to stay the fuck out of grown up business. 

Can I just say though that I understand Rumple's motivation in helping when there's a crisis a bit better now? He said that Storybrooke is his kingdom not once, but twice in the same episode. It was the first time he ever voiced that feeling. 

[Camera One]

"Grandpa put Belle inside Pandora's Box".... that one I'd love to hear.  

Emma didn't ask where Belle was when she went to the Shop.  I'm surprised the others weren't trying to find her to help with the book research.

[Bishop]

On 5/12/2016 at 3:17 AM, KAOS Agent said:

So I was watching the Arthur/Hook questing part again and Hook talks about how the last time he'd been in Hades chamber it was spent "at the end of a lash" which I caught in my original viewing and thought it was interesting that they described some of the torture Hook had suffered from Hades. What I missed was that Arthur then picked up and spent several seconds looking at said lash, which incidentally wasn't simply a one tailed whip, but a cat o' nine tails. It's interesting that the show spent a tiny bit of time reminding the audience that Hook suffered greatly under Hades even though we haven't seen the physical effects of that since the fourth episode of 5B.

Yeah, I was surprised the writers touched on that again in the episode, and it may explain why Hook was in so much pain and favoring his back or his side whenever we saw him.  I would have liked a more final scene between Hades and Hook before Hades left the underworld.  It just seemed weird to me how much time Hades devoted to torturing Hook and then when he was rescued, Hades didn't seem to have much of an interest anymore.  Then again, I do recall Hades' wanting to harm Hook in that scene with Hook and his brother Liam in the fire pit room and Liam gave his life to protect his brother, and then something made Hades' frightened or angry (I'm guessing it was Zeus), and he left them unharmed.  I think Zeus was watching even at that point.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Bishop

[KAOS Agent]

I've been very lax in my theme word count this half season, but I figured I should give an update since it seems like we're done with the Underworld. Unlike in previous seasons, "Unfinished business" wasn't used to hit us over the head as the theme of 5B. It was used just three times in this episode and the most it was used in any episode was six (Firebird & Souls of the Departed). Thus far in 5B, unfinished business has been used 30 times. Compared to 5A's extreme use of "Darkness" (105 uses), they were positively frugal in its usage.

I was also tracking the use of "hope" for the half season. After a couple of weeks off from hope, we got three mentions in this episode, which is a bit amusing considering what happened to Robin - not much hope there. Still, so far this season we got 19 uses of hope (used as a noun, not a verb). The writers are still interested in telling us that this is a show about hope, even if Milah, Gaston, Auntie Em & Robin would like to remind us that it kind of isn't.

[Camera One]

That's the good thing with 5B overall... I really didn't feel like the buzzwords were hitting me on the head.

This episode had 5 uses of the word "changed", especially from Zelena (also 5 times for "change" in "Firebird").  

"Last Rites" did have 12 uses of the word "love", though less than "Sisters", which used it 17 times.  And that was less than "Ruby Slippers", which used it 25 times ("Our Decay", 21 times).  

[KingOfHearts]

Arthur's send-off was fine for him, but it didn't do justice for the Camelot arc. It threw his relationship with Guinevere, anger with Merlin and quest for Excalibur under the water. After everything that happened in 5A, Arthur was killed by accidentally running into Hades. Merida's intent on vengeance amounted to nothing, even though it was a cliffhanger for 5x09. While giving him a broken kingdom to fix was justice for his character, it didn't amount to much payoff for 5A.

Edited May 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kingshearte]

Yeah, I haven't watched the finale yet, but I hope it includes a little more closure for the rest of them. I didn't mind how things went down for Arthur after he'd died, but his actual death just seemed kind of weirdly abrupt and contrived.

I guess Arthur's death leaves the door open for Guin and Lance to get together, though.

[Hecate7]

On 5/8/2016 at 8:19 PM, Arnella said:

I am liking the way that Rumple is going.  I can't believe that Moe truly loves Belle enough for TLK - he is still the same douche from the mines.  BUT that means no Belle for awhile - YAY!  Thanks for getting pregnant Emilie!

Now Rumple is free to go super Dark One without any whining about it!  YAY YAY!

I'm finally looking forward to a Rumple story line.

We have had that, and had it, and had it. It gets boring. It's too one-dimensional. The problem is that noble Rumple is no longer possible (unless there's some amazing retcon in store), and conflicted Rumple is only sustainable for so long. I hate the way Rumple is going, because it makes everyone look like idiots for putting up with him at all, especially Belle. Eventually Emma, Regina, Hook, and every other character who's ever had magic, ought to find a way to stick him in the hat or put him in a box or whatever, and let Carlyle go on to do something else. I like Robert Carlyle too much to watch him twirl a moustache for all eternity. It's halfway interesting that now he's not the only one running around who's been a Dark One, and that in fact Hook was a worse one in most ways.

 

I don't buy Rumple because I simply don't believe that with a pure heart, which he had, a newly awakened heroism, and true love by his side, anyone, even Rumple, would choose to suck up all the darkness, UNLESS he was pulling an Emma and making a sacrifice motivated by that same new pure heart and heroism, and had a plan to defeat the darkness. I could even buy that he started out with good intentions but fell victim to his own addiction. But I cannot buy that anyone with a pure heart and courage and true love would throw all that away just to become the Dark One again. It makes no sense in any reality.

[Rumsy4]

55 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

But I cannot buy that anyone with a pure heart and courage and true love would throw all that away just to become the Dark One again.

It kinda makes sense because it was too much too soon. He didn't choose to have the Darkness sucked out of him. He was exploiting and manipulating everyone, including his wife, the minute before he collapsed. His wife keeps throwing herself back at him no matter how badly he treats her. And to top it all, Dark Hook taunted him about him losing all that Dark Power after centuries being addicted to it. So, if course he relapsed. I just don't buy the BS that he and Belle are True Love.

[Camera One]

The pure heart stuff was difficult to buy, and the relapse was stupid and a usual "big twist".  I don't give them points for the relapse or the pure heart crap.

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

It kinda makes sense because it was too much too soon. He didn't choose to have the Darkness sucked out of him. He was exploiting and manipulating everyone, including his wife, the minute before he collapsed. His wife keeps throwing herself back at him no matter how badly he treats her. And to top it all, Dark Hook taunted him about him losing all that Dark Power after centuries being addicted to it. So, if course he relapsed. I just don't buy the BS that he and Belle are True Love.

It only makes sense if the whole concept of pure hearts isn't real, but we all saw the white glowing heart he had. He was revolted by his former self, and so it makes no sense that he'd go back to roll in the mud. There's nothing worse than a reformed smoker, you know? I realized what he'd done when the wound from Excalibur in his arm didn't turn into a huge deal, but I was mystified about why and when it could have happened. It really makes no sense. He should have expressed pity and disdain for Hook and Emma being Dark Ones, not hungered after it again. Especially after his weird ordeal with Emma, where he warned her that making him into a hero was something she'd regret. That remark ought to tie in more with what happened.