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scarynikki12

S01.E14: River Of Time

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You guys, I just can't. I can't believe that there's another two episodes of this utterly contrived, meandering ... nothingness. 

This show really needed to be about 4 episodes shorter. Rip doesn't deserve the title of Fry Cook, much less Captain. 

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I liked several scenes of this episode but it might be the first episode that left me unsatisfied. I don't know if it's because what Ray did with Savage just isn't something I expect from or if it's because Kendra didn't pick up that damn mace and bash Savage's head in when she had the chance. I am just mystified as to why he was left alive - I guess it had something to do with undoing all the damage he had done, but I still say end him now - worry about undoing his other damage later.

I suspect the next two episodes will make me happy again because it will be about Sara and Snart saving the team and then I can only assume they are going to defeat Savage back in 2016 since they can't trust the Time Masters for shit.

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Yep, the heroes are stupid.  Ray allowed Savage to get under his skin, Rip didn't see the Time Masters were evil, and Kendra didn't kill Savage when she had the chance, which led to all of this.

Good news is that Snart and Sara get to be the big damn heroes now.  They are also really playing up the Snart and Sara have a thing for each other angle.  Way to go Snart, you join Oliver as a guy she has a thing for.  I loved seeing Nyssa again.  And I've got to get it out of the way, Caity Lotz looked fantastic in this episode.

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With Killer and Klepto in charge may stuff with get done now. And it looked like Sara kisses Snart in the promo.

Ray and Kendra deserve each other, they are both idiots. It seems to me that Rip only choose two people that are easily manipulated, those two. 

Savage working with the Time Lords wasn't unexpected. They have been shown to be evil. 

I loved that Sara did visit Nyssa in Nanda Parbat, she had stupid reasons for wanting to say imprisoned, but I liked that they someone went to try and rescue her. Since the truest hero of the mall did't care. I guess Sara also still has friends in the league since they let her in and Malcolm didn't know about it. Too bad she didn't go kill Malcolm while she was there. 

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This show will be the death of me. I hated this episode until the last 15 minutes, when they all started working together again. I am sick to death of Vandal Savage and ancient Egyptian flashbacks and Carter and this stupid, stupid romance--and I'm normally ALL about the romance in any show I watch. Even my husband was yelling at the screen, "How stupid ARE you people?"

The few things I did like: As previously mentioned, the Legends working together. Sara taking command. Rip finally not being selfish. Stein saving Jax. Mick getting drunk. And most of all? "LEONARD SNART, ROBBER OF ATMS!" I laughed myself silly over that one.  

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I loved Nyssa telling Sara not to worry about her in that scene. Nyssa had probably already put her plan to overthrow Malcolm into play and she truly just wanted Sara to live and be happy.

Well thank goodness Snart and Sara like to hang out together and that he has a really good nose for trouble. Without them, they'd all be dead.

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12 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I liked several scenes of this episode but it might be the first episode that left me unsatisfied. I don't know if it's because what Ray did with Savage just isn't something I expect from or if it's because Kendra didn't pick up that damn mace and bash Savage's head in when she had the chance. I am just mystified as to why he was left alive - I guess it had something to do with undoing all the damage he had done, but I still say end him now - worry about undoing his other damage later.

I suspect the next two episodes will make me happy again because it will be about Sara and Snart saving the team and then I can only assume they are going to defeat Savage back in 2016 since they can't trust the Time Masters for shit.

The last episode left me unsatisfied it was the first episode that I hated. This one while slow moving was made better by Sara once again showing she's the only consistently competent member of the team that doesn't abandon her mostly idiotic team mates. 

I look forward to Sara and Snart being the big damn heroes I know they are. 

I would love it even more if after all that Gideon decides that Sara is the Captain now.

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Say what you will about Kendra but at least she wasn't stupid enough to fight a villain with thousands of years of combat experience solely due to a jealous rage.  Ray might just grab the stupidest hero title and there's an astounding level of competition for that given what Barry Allen has been up to.

Oh, and once again Carter gets his ass kicked by Savage. It's hard to believe that getting stabbed way back in the second episode is far and away his best showing. 

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1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

The last episode left me unsatisfied it was the first episode that I hated. This one while slow moving was made better by Sara once again showing she's the only consistently competent member of the team that doesn't abandon her mostly idiotic team mates. 

I look forward to Sara and Snart being the big damn heroes I know they are. 

I would love it even more if after all that Gideon decides that Sara is the Captain now.

For some reason, the last episode didn't bother me. I mean, yes, Kendra bothered the hell out of me in it, but the episode didn't bug me. This one did. There are things I loved - Stein NOT making a deal with Savage, but sending Jax back on the jump ship in such a way as to save his life. Now I'm sure the logic of that is going to have holes so big you could drive a mack truck through them - but I will let it go if when Stein gets back to 2016, he finds Jax alive and well and the proper age.

I'm not entirely sure if they have returned their younger selves to their proper timelines or not, but again, I will let that go for now.

I enjoyed killer, pyro, and klepto sitting around drinking and insisting that they needed to off Vandal because they are right - that was always the mission! So WTH?

I enjoyed the setup for what will probably be an awesome episode of Sara and Snart in the next one.

But between Ray being stupid enough to try to take Savage on and end up letting the madman get loose, Savage using Ray's guns against the team, and Kendra just laying there as Savage stabbed Carter - I won't be able to watch this one again I don't think. You know I was kind of hoping that Rip was lying his ass off when he told Kendra Carter was alive so she would just go ahead and kill Savage but then I forgot they wanted to bring him to the Time Masters. I'm still a little unsure what Rip thought they were going to do - but maybe I'll get a better feeling about that in the next episode.

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So, if Rip hadn't tried to kill Savage in ancient Egypt he wouldn't have remembered his face, and if he hadn't gathered the Legends and tried to attack Savage at different points in time Savage wouldn't have realized he was being pursued by time travelers and become one himself. Which apparently led him to the Time Masters, who trained Rip and helped him get into a position to try and kill Savage, which led him to...uggh. Time travel. I love it but if you think about it too hard it makes your head hurt. At this point the fate of Rip, Rory, Ray and Stein, is in the hands of Snart and Sara? Oh man, I kind of feel bad for the Time Masters.

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Okay, first Kendra won't kill Vandal Savage because Stupid Boyfriend #1 won't get his memories back; even though, as Snart pointed out, he's just going to reincarnate later. Then, Stupid Boyfriend #2 flies into a jealous rage over Stupid Boyfriend #1 and lets Savage goad him into a fistfight, which he promptly loses because without his super suit he's less of a fighter then Stupid Boyfriend #1 who Savage has murdered to death 200 times. Can we just toss Kendra and her Stupid Boyfriends, and her Stupid Wannabe Boyfriend Savage out the nearest airlock and just get on with our lives.

On another note: Stein was awesome for being willing to sacrifice himself to save Jax, and Sara was also awesome for knowing that Rip deserved a good, hard beating for sending Jax into danger in the first place, but not abandoning the mission. Also, the Time Lordlings are evil, who'd of guessed it?

Edited by Lokiberry
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 I would've laughed forever if Carter did get killed again. 

The last episode pissed me off so much I couldn't even watch the reaction videos I usually watch. My main reason, there wasn't enough Sara. This one had plenty of Sara and the Rogues those are the scenes I will be watching again. I just love the three of them. My wish still remains for next season to be Captain Lance with Snart and Mick. They can fly around meeting other heroes throughout time and help people. 

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Lance, Snart, and Mick are definitely the best part of the show, but I would keep Stein/Jax and Ray if they never let Ray have another love interest again. Ray is great when he geeking out with Stein about science stuff or playing the innocent straight man to Snart's wordly bad boy. But Ray gets stupid when he's in love so no more of that please. When he is no longer being used in the Flarrowverse, they can tell me he met someone and fell in love and lived happily ever after - but while he's on my television - single Atom is the best Atom.

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I love how everyone in the Flarrowverse introduces themselves. 

Nyssa, Heir to the Demon.
Felicity Smoak, MIT class of '09
Vandal Savage, destroyer of Empires. 
Leonard Snart, robber of ATM's.
Barry Allen, fastest man alive.

and my addition. 

Sara Lance, BAMF!

Edited by Sakura12
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This episode was a laugh riot for all the wrong reasons. These idiots are idiots. I actually paused, reversed, and watched Carter get stabbed again and again and again. I really do HATE the hawks and their dumb epic love story. It would probably help if the actors had any chemistry, but they have none. It really is aastonishing.

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I always figured the Time Masters were evil, because I couldn't ever figure out how Vandal Savage managed to be in Whitechapel at just the right time to kill Miranda and Jonas.  Sure Rip was stupid to have given him their faces and names, but it's not like Vandal had any idea where they were going to turn up.  Over 4000 years, with billions of people on the planet (even granted the virus decimating the population), and he happens to find them?  (Especially considering that three days earlier he was giving speeches in a completely different location.)  I thought he had to have help.

That said, I don't really blame Rip for not seeing it.  I mean sure, they might as well be twirling their mustaches every time we see them and they've personally betrayed him at least twice before this, but we know that they recruit ten year old orphans and basically raise them up isolated from any outside influence.  That's a lot of indoctrination to get past.  (He had seemed so hopeful when he thought the Time Masters would finally have to act.  Poor guy.)

I enjoyed the way the flashbacks were used in this episode.  They were fun.

Edited by squidprincess · Reason: more precise wording
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I like Arthur Darville . . . but if Scott Bakula and Dean Stockwell invaded the set and beat him and the writers up? I'd totally understand.

What was Rip expecting? A parade in his honor at Vanishing Point? It didn't occur to him that the Time Masters would cut Savage loose with little fanfare? What a maroon. Then again, that probably applies to everyone except Sara and Leonard. And Martin and Jax. Speaking of which, I'm hoping that Savage gets killed so Jax can light a fire up Rip's ass. Dare to dream, right?

Ray is a dumbass. Savage has a headstart in fighting for at least three millennia. Put on the ATOM suit and make him dance. Dumbass!

ETA: If Rip had recruited Sara and Nyssa, he probably would've had Savage checkmated in half the time.

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Rip is as bad a captain as he is a time traveler.  Good lord, the ship is literally a clown car fullof idiots.

I’ve had it with the Hawks storyline and would be very happy to see them gone next season.  Carter getting stabbed by Savage again was hysterical and it would have been more so if he had died.  Seriously, 0 for 208 is really pathetic.

Amazingly, I thought this was the best episode for the Savage character but I admit, that’s not saying much.

“How’s that working out for you, Gandhi!”  Mick’s line there was pretty great.

Enjoyed all the flashbacks and great to see Sara and Nyssa together again.  Stein not cutting a deal with Savage was great.  The Vanishing Point at the end looked great. 

It was hard to get past the stupid but I did like how the last few minutes played out.

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I forgot that while I sympathized with most of the stupid decisions made this episode, I was pretty disappointed with Ray falling for Savage's manipulation.  I get that it sucked losing your girl, but seriously?  

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So who gets the trophy for biggest idiot this episode?

My money's on Ray. The immortal psychopath, who damn near out fought the Green Arrow, Speedy and the Flash, at the same time was safely locked in a cage even he didn't seem to be able to get out of and what does Ray do? Go in there with him, without the super suit that might have given him at least a fighting chance.

I can't really fault Rip for being tricked by the Time Masters. It might be obvious to us in the audience, with our omniscience and all, but Rip didn't have access to all the information. And the Time Masters have been doing stuff like this, I imagine, for a very long time. What I CAN fault Rip for is nearly getting Jax killed. forcing Stein to send his way, endangering his own life and weakening the team.

Snart, Sara and Rory were, as usual, the MVP's of the episode. I really wish the show was about them.

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Didn't they do this exact same style of episode a few episodes back with Rory/Heatwave/Kronos ?  Confined to the brig and everyone takes a turn talking to him so that the prisoner can get under their respective skins.

I predict Jax will be back to save the day.

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53 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Snart, Sara and Rory were, as usual, the MVP's of the episode. I really wish the show was about them.

The problem with that idea, to me, is that the reason that Snart, Sara and Rory can stay the MVPs of most episodes is that they're not the centers of the show.

In Snart and Rory's case: that means they're not saddled with the angst, melodrama, and personal motivations that bog down the lead characters.  If the show did shift them to center stage, suddenly we'd have swarms of old enemies, lost loves, and massive weights of guilt and responsibility piling on top of them.   They'd end up unrecognizable.  This way, they get the occasional subplot, but mostly get to snark and burn their way through the episode.

Sara's a little different, because I would say that Sara is probably already the second lead of the show after Rip.  (Kendra has more personal motivation, but it seems like she and her love triangle ends up relegated to the B-plot more often.)   I wouldn't be surprised if next season shifted her even more to the forefront (since Rip's main drama will presumably be resolved.)

Edited by squidprincess
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I didn't think it was possible, but I'm pretty sure every main character got to hold the idiot ball at least once in a single episode.  Including the ship's computer.

Gideon decides to warn the crew that Savage is about to disconnect her 10 seconds before he does. But she can't warn the crew that the prison door is open or Savage has escaped.

Flashbacks ruin narrative momentum.

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Nice to see Nyssa and Felicity- those scenes were a pleasant surprise. What wasn't was Ray letting Savage get in his head. At least Mick called him on his stupidity.

The Stein/Jax scene was very well done. Both of them were selfless and wanted to protect the other. Loved seeing their affection grow for each other with every episode. I hope he's back to save the day.

Cant wait to see Snart and Sara save everyone next week. It was sad hearing Laurel's name being mentioned and Sara having no idea her sister was dead. 

Edited by twoods
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I loved the Sara and Nyssa scene.   To me that was gut wrenching. 

 

Also during the showdown fight on the waverider that showed everyone beaten down I realized that the reason Sara was navigating was because there was no way she'd be taken down as quickly as the other team members.  

I'd like to add "I'm league of assassins, not NASA." to the great quotes database.   I love Sara.   

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4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Ray and Kendra deserve each other, they are both idiots. It seems to me that Rip only choose two people that are easily manipulated, those two.

And Carter.  No, sorry, he's just easily stabbed. Not quite the same.

4 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Carter gets his ass kicked by Savage. It's hard to believe that getting stabbed way back in the second episode is far and away his best showing. 

Yep -- getting stabbed is the only thing he's good at.

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I really do HATE the hawks and their dumb epic love story. It would probably help if the actors had any chemistry, but they have none. It really is aastonishing.

Neither Hawk has any chemistry with anyone.  They are doth so damn dull.

3 hours ago, squidprincess said:

I enjoyed the way the flashbacks were used in this episode.  They were fun.

This is the only show in the "flarrowverse" that I watch, so they really did nothing for me.  The only one I liked was Jax's. 

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SARA PILOTED THE SHIP!!!!!!!!

She really is the everything on this show and it isn't just me.  I love her so much.

Cold's snark while being shot at is why I adore him.  "Robber of ATMS" indeed.  Never change, you sexy, overly dramatic, bastard.

I love that Rip was annoyed that they found his good stash and the bottle was empty by episode's end.  It ended up being a great sign of how strong the relationships between Mick, Sara and Snart are as they passed it back and forth with the ease of lifelong Besties. 

To be honest, I can spend hours talking about how much I love Sara, Mick, and Snart, together and separately (Sara and Snart played cards again!!!  I don't know why that detail appeals to me as strongly as it does but I LOVE IT), so I should move on.

Savage surviving the episode makes me more convinced than ever that he will be defeated in 2016.  And that was before his partnership with the Time Masters was confirmed.  Rip will have to make a choice once Sara and Snart free them and I think he'll sacrifice his family for the good of the world. 

I was so happy when Carter got stabbed and then mad when he didn't die.  Savage, your job on this show is to KILL CARTER!!  I don't like him and could use a little support.  YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIG BAD SO KILL CARTER!! 

I hope Jax isn't gone forever.  I love watching him and Stein.

It was good to see Nyssa and I hope she can guest star again next season.

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I really hope that the Hawkes aren't back for season 2, they and Savage are by far the weakest part of the show.

It seems likely that Savage was the one to create the Time Masters in the first place, or at least be a major influence so they really can't remove him from the timeline without destroying themselves. 

Mick, Sara and Snart are love, together separately or in whatever pairing,  I kind of want Sara/Snart to become a romantic thing but I'm in no rush for it. Especially after an episode that had a Nyssa/Sara flashback. 

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Good things:

  • Ray and Kendra are OVER!!! 
  • Snart's Spidey Sense tingling.
  • Finding proof that will let them turn VS over to the Time Masters that will undo all the damage VS has done.
  • Hard to believe I'm writing this but the Flashbacks
  • Stein drugging Jax and sending him back to save his life.
  • Rip being open with Sara about his fears and faults
  • Rip trusting Sara to make the best choices under pressure
  • Sara refusing to leave her team or captain
  • Sara and Snart playing cards again (now in private, hmm)
  • Snart, Sara, and Mick passing the whiskey around

Bad things

  • Wait, why weren't Ray and Kendra broken up before the episode started??
  • Kendra stringing Ray along still- that was cold girl, begging for another man to love you before telling your fiancé it's not happening.
  • The show confirming that if Carter died he WOULD just reincarnate so him not knowing Kendra this ONE time really had no emotional stakes making Kendra pretty much the worst.  More selfish than Rip IMO. 
  • Ray letting VS goad him.  I started begging Ray not to do it the moment he returned to visit again.  How could you let Savage manipulate you into opening the door?  How could you be so arrogant as to think you COULD beat him?  How could I possibly think BR looked really hot while being so stupid??
  • Carter sounding completely wooden as he said Kendra's name after getting stabbed.  You may be dying and you just remembered the love of all your lives -  Don't say her name like you want to borrow some ketchup. 
  • Flying through time by looking at maps?? 
  • Anyone going to talk to VS.  Why are they asking for trouble? 
  • Snart and Rory planning on using the jump ship and leaving without even asking anyone else to come with them. 
  • Ray again because opening VS's cage was so incredibly dumb that it deserved to be on the list twice.

While I was watching I felt like I was more annoyed with the episode than I am now that I am breaking it down and thinking about it.  I loved how once again Rip couldn't help but be honest with Sara even when he wasn't sure he was being honest with himself.  And I loved that Sara got mad at how he was acting but refused to abandon him, her teammates or the mission. 

I was so happy to get closure FINALLY for Nyssa and Sara.  And that Stein at least got to tell his wife how much he loved her before he left. I was actually totally confused that Jax was having a flashback so I didn't get any emotional reaction to that (cause I thought it a hallucinatory side effect of the time exposure) but I enjoyed Ray's conversation with Felicity a lot. I hated them dating but I love the friendship vibe.

 I also liked that while Ray confessed he would have stayed for Felicity (presumably if she'd returned his feelings,) he told Kendra that Kendra was the one that taught him he could fall in love again after losing his fiancé thus IMO confirming my head canon that Ray was mostly rebounding and projecting his feelings onto Felicity (thus keeping me from finding him a jerk for forgetting about his fiancé that had died less than a year before) 

Ray was an epic idiot but because it felt authentic to his character for him to still have this unchecked arrogance still lingering, I was ultimately ok with how it played out.  He's almost too good to be true with how he is genuinely brilliant, good, noble and won't stoop to hating Kendra or even blaming her despite it being an understandable thing if he did.  His one big flaw remains his hubris.  He lets his ego get in the way of his brilliance.  The show has done a lot to knock him down a bit (like with the Russian scientist that rejected him or going undercover as a janitor) but his arrogance is still a his greatest weakness- that he must be right even at his most emotionally compromised.  Makes him a bit more human. 

The second they were able to tie VS to time travel crimes I knew the Time Masters were in on it but I think it was a valid twist.  

I was surprised at how moved I was when Stein drugged Jax and sent him home to save him.  I actually teared up, but that's the power of Victor Garber.  Not sure why he couldn't have gone with Jax if staying behind meant his death though.  This team is terrible at communicating with each other.

Can't wait for Sara and Snart to save the day next week.   

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Good grief!  I give up.  As far as I'm concerned, Sara, Snart, and Mick are the only three that make any damn sense, and everyone else are just a bunch of fucking idiots.  A great team you formed here, Rip.

After weeks of enjoying him way more then I ever did on Arrow, Ray reminded he how much of a stupid jackass he can be.  And what do you know, it happens because of issues with his love life.  I swear, this really does seem to bring the worst out of him.  First, all that bullshit drama he had with Felicity, and now this.  I can't believe he really let his emotions so get the best out of him, that he decided to throw down with Savage.  Way to fucking go, Ray.  Not a good episode for you, buddy.

Meanwhile, Kendra continues to be a deadweight to this show.  She continues to keep denying that Ray isn't just a replacement for Carter, even though it is clearly pure bullshit, and then when Ray finally has enough, she gives the weakest "Ray" ever.  I don't care what she says; I really don't think she ever loved Ray.  Man, I can't believe this show misfired this badly with a pretty popular comic character.

Rip continues to be an idiot, who lets Savage goad him into causing the ship to almost explode, almost gets Jax killed, and be such a useless idiot, that he finally acknowledges that he is lame more or less, and lets Sara pilot the damn ship, because seriously, she really is the best member on this team.

At least Stein finds a way to save Jax from Rip's death sentence, although it would have been nice of him to actually ask the rest of the team if they wanted a right home too.

No surprise, Savage is actually working with the Time Masters.  Guess we have to suffer with him for two more episodes.  I continue to keep comparing him to characters like Damien Dahrk, who I would at least enjoy watching him taunt everyone and laugh in their faces.  But Savage is just so underwhelming, that I can't.  Another major misfire.

Always great seeing Nyssa again.  Especially since Katrina Law can show more facial expressions in a two minute scene compared to Ciara Renee throughout the entire series.

I am looking forward to Snart and Sara saving everyone's asses, hopefully.  I at least have faith that these two can pull it off (I love Mick, but, yeah, his approach would probably just be rushing in and punching people.  They'll probably need a bit more finesse then that.)

I just hope they stay true to their word, and Savage arc will be done this season.  This show has a lot going for it, but they really need to end him and the Hawkpeople as soon as possible.  I still vote for just Mick, Snart, and Sara meeting up with Nyssa, and just running roughshod on a bunch of evil goons.  Maybe had a few other interesting characters like Jonah Hex or John Constantine.  Stein and Jax can stay, and maybe Ray if he pulls his head back out of his ass (and Mick is allowed to give him one smack).  But I am so done with Savage, Kendra, Carter, and, sadly, even Rip despite generally enjoying Arthur Darvill.

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Is the awesomeness that is Caity Lotz enough to keep watching this turgid soporific of a show?

That is actually a genuine question.

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2 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Is the awesomeness that is Caity Lotz enough to keep watching this turgid soporific of a show?

That is actually a genuine question.

Shrug.  For me it is.  Also it may be over blown and silly (and full of plot holes) but it doesn't bore me. Even the stuff that makes me crazy doesn't put me to sleep. 

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So in the final analysis, Kendra really is 100% about her love life, Ray is 100% about his penis issues, and Carter - the most vanilla stalker to ever wax lyrical about destiny - is 100% back on the show.

The best part of the episode was when someone asked "Can we really kill Savage and leave Carter without his memories" and everyone else in the room (and me) yelled YES! He's being reincarnated you myopic boyfriend-obsessed idiot.

As far as I'm concerned, she, Carter and Savage can die horrible deaths soon. And after this episode, I wouldn't be too upset if they took Ray with them.

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5 hours ago, twoods said:

The Stein/Jax scene was very well done. Both of them were selfless and wanted to protect the other. Loved seeing their affection grow for each other with every episode. I hope he's back to save the day.

Yeah, their relationship has had a nice progression.  And speaking of Jefferson, I said it last week, and I'll say it again, it's awesome to see everybody on the team know that Jefferson is smart.  Once again Rip gives him the job of fixing the ship, nobody was worried that he wouldn't be able to fix it, Stein's worry was about the radiation.

I've been thinking about it, and I've got to use a Futurama quote to sum up Carter.  The only thing he does better than anybody is suck and die.

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I like how Rip was worried about what Sara was going to do the whole time. Even he knows that without Sara on the team he's screwed. She is the team. He brought her on to be a killer but has been treating her like his second in command. 

Arrogant Ray probably thinks he is and has proven that he can't make smart decisions under pressure. Savage used that same tactic with Stien and Sara, they knew he was telling the truth and used it to their advantage. They didn't let him get into their heads, they were smarter than that. 

The team is lucky that it's Sara and Snart left to rescue them. Could you imagine if it was Ray and Kendra? They would all be dead while those two talk about their feelings 500 more times while getting killed before they even get to rescuing the team.

Edited by Sakura12
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8 hours ago, squidprincess said:

The problem with that idea, to me, is that the reason that Snart, Sara and Rory can stay the MVPs of most episodes is that they're not the centers of the show.

In Snart and Rory's case: that means they're not saddled with the angst, melodrama, and personal motivations that bog down the lead characters.  If the show did shift them to center stage, suddenly we'd have swarms of old enemies, lost loves, and massive weights of guilt and responsibility piling on top of them.   They'd end up unrecognizable.  This way, they get the occasional subplot, but mostly get to snark and burn their way through the episode.

That's a good point. In a lot of shows I watch I tend to gravitate toward side characters, rarely the actual star, because you don't know as much about them or because they get to have more fun that the ones carrying the plot. And if they ever become the star, like Sylar on Heroes, they are no longer the enigmatic character I liked in the first place. So I guess Sara, Snart and Rory will have to keep supporting the other idiots. Oh well. At least with them aboard we can be reasonably sure everyone will survive. Except for Carter. I want him to be like Kenny from South Park.

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Shrug.  For me it is.  Also it may be over blown and silly (and full of plot holes) but it doesn't bore me. Even the stuff that makes me crazy doesn't put me to sleep. 

I agree. For all the stupid choices and plot holes, this show is still so much damn fun. And for a show like this, that's all I really need. Better writing might help in the long term but for right now? I'm good.

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5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I just hope they stay true to their word, and Savage arc will be done this season.  This show has a lot going for it, but they really need to end him and the Hawkpeople as soon as possible.  I still vote for just Mick, Snart, and Sara meeting up with Nyssa, and just running roughshod on a bunch of evil goons.  Maybe had a few other interesting characters like Jonah Hex or John Constantine.  Stein and Jax can stay, and maybe Ray if he pulls his head back out of his ass (and Mick is allowed to give him one smack).  But I am so done with Savage, Kendra, Carter, and, sadly, even Rip despite generally enjoying Arthur Darvill.

I don't want anyone else from Arrow or Flash on this show. I think they're starting to rely on tie-backs too much (especially Arrow; I'm tired of not knowing what's going on in certain scenes because I don't watch that show. And I don't care to start). I just want Savage and Carter gone for sure, and I'm leaning toward Kendra, too. I believe Ray and Rip can be salvaged with some good writing. The rest, IMO, are untouchable. 

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As long as Sara's not stuck with propping Kendra's love life she's enough for me to watch. She's my favorite chracter. And I love Snart even with the nuanuced way WM delivers his dialogue though it really got to me last week. And I adore Mick too. I like Stein and Jax a lot of the time.

The problem is when Sara gets stuck with characters I don't like. That has been Kendra.  So we need better other characters and I'd be a lot happier viewer. But with The Hawks and Savage being the driving force this season, everything is about them which is the #1 problem with this show.

Edited by tarotx
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Better than last week's episode but Kendra/Carter probably should leave the show when Savage is inevitably taken down. I think their romance has done more to hinder the show than to actually help it.

Savage's OTT gloating, bragging, duping Ray etc was a bit eye rolling. Actually a lot. I did hate that ray was goaded into freeing him though.

Working with the Time Masters, actually didn't see that coming but I should've done though as it seems obvious in retrospect.

I liked the flashbacks with Jax/his mother, Stein/Clarissa, Ray/Felicity, Rip/Savage and of course, Sara/Nyssa.

I loved Stein doing his best to protect Jax and having Sara/Snart being the only one clever enough not to get captured by the Time Masters as well, 7/10

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The best thing about this episode was the preview for next week which promised us that there are only "two episodes left".  Thank the stars.  This episode was awful.  I'm so incredibly tired of Vandal Savage and his all-powerfulness.  I'm beyond tired of Kendra and her love torn across centuries.  I'm tired of Ray and his "but it's ME so this time it will be different despite 4000 years of history" petty jealousy.  I want all three of them gone from the show at the end of the next two episodes.

The cast is too big anyways.  I would also like to lose Victor Garber and Jefferson.  They are useless.  I would gladly watch a show consisting of Rip, Sarah Lance, Leonard Snart, Mick Rory and Jonah Hex.  If it was permanently set in the Old West, all the better.

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Working with the Time Masters, actually didn't see that coming but I should've done though as it seems obvious in retrospect.

I don't know that he's working with the Time Masters so much as they regard him as a necessary component in the timeline.  Maybe in 2231 an alien race of flesh-eaters invade Earth and without the harsh but brilliant military leadership of Vandal Savage the aliens eat all the humans and pick their teeth with our bones.  Sure, Vandal Savage is evil, but maybe he's a necessary evil.

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This season has been such a slog to get through. Like most CW shows, if you had decent writers on board and a showrunner worth his/her salt, this show could be good. There's moments that really work within each episode but they're overpowered by pure stupidity 90% of the time.

I liked seeing Nyssa & Felicity within this timeline but I do wish someone had informed Sara about Laurel's death.

Right now I'd keep Sara, Snart and Rory; take or leave Rip, Ray, Stein and Jackson; and shoot straight into the black hole the Hawks and Savage.

Edited by kdm07

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I love that the general consensus is Team pyro, klepto, and killer good. Rip, Firestorm, and ATOM maybe. Hawks must die.

I almost feel guilty because when show wishlists were going up when it was all first announced - I really and truly wanted Hawkgirl. And now I won't care if she dies or goes off to be a barista with Carter - just as long as I don't have to see her try to be a hero again on any of my shows and they don't tell me anything more about her stupid love life. Sigh.

The showrunners records with kickass female characters from comics is so damn iffy. Sara is their invention and she works as a nod to the real Black Canary - but their actually BC on Arrow sucked. They screwed the pooch on Hawkgirl. Vixen was ok though. I'm almost nervous about what we'll get if they give us another woman - and yet I can't stop myself from wanting one.

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Heh, I think I'm the only outright fan of Rip.  I just find him really interesting. I actually really like that he's a terrible leader.

I think it's because I get so tired of seeing characters who suffer trauma end up the usual hyper competent, yet equally hyperviolent badass who also is a total ass.  That seems like the default portrayal, if the trauma is acknowledged at all.  

Rip though expresses trauma symptoms that I actually recognize: depressive episodes, apathy and recklessness, inability to relate to people, very poor decision making (understatement).  They aren't cool symptoms, they didn't turn him into a badass (if anything, his reputation implies that he was far more competent before.)  I am curious to see what he'll be once the Savage situation is resolved.

That said, essentially making Sara the second in command was the smartest thing he's ever done.

Sadly Ray and Carter are the weakest links for me, but I think Ray is definitely salvageable.  I'd like to see Carter gone. I've never seen a portrayal of Hawkman that I actually liked, and Carter is no different.

Edited by squidprincess
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I know this episode was horribly stupid. Rip was once again terribly incompetent, petulant and selfish. He even bullies his own fucking ship for basically no reason.

The Ray/Kendra/Carter melodrama was so stupid`and contrived, I couldn`t believe my eyes. At the end when Kendra got the faux-hero moment with Rip all "you saved us all", I groaned. Because if she hadn`t been so selfish in the beginning, Savage would be dead already. So really, she doomed all of you. To get back a love interest she`d already had five million relationships with and who would reincarnate. The running snarky commentary of Snart and Mick was much appreciated.

But I kinda don`t care because I`m in ship heaven. It always bothered me so much that everyone left poor Nyssa to rot in that cell. Especially Sara. And nope, she didn`t. She came back for her and it was Nyssa who wanted to remain. Yeeeeesssss.  *fistpump*   I loved that scene.

And of course in present times, does my little eye spy some Sara-Snart action to be had? Pretty-please.  

This crew should consist of Sara, Snart, Mick, Professor Stein and Jax. Ray is simply too goofy, naive and easily manipulated. Jax is also a friendly, easy-going type with some naivety and Professor Stein holds up the morals but neither of them is at Ray`s level of ZOMG, no. 

 

Quote

Heh, I think I'm the only outright fan of Rip.  I just find him really interesting. I actually really like that he's a terrible leader.

I think it's because I get so tired of seeing characters who suffer trauma end up the usual hyper competent, yet equally hyperviolent badass who also is a total ass.  That seems like the default portrayal, if the trauma is acknowledged at all.  

I get that the usual portrayal can veer towards one-note and unrealistic but my problem with this scenario is: if someone - even previously competent - suddenly sucks THAT much, they should step down from leadership. Or be removed. Being sympathetic to trauma is one thing but you don`t keep that person in a position like this if they can no longer hack it.

And that drives me up the walls with Rip. If they would at least make it 50/50 with him, where sometimes you can see him being said competent badass (previous incarnation) and sometimes you see him fumble. Then I could buy that the show would be his journey towards healing and regaining his self. 

But he fumbles all the time. I just see no trace of the man he supposedly was going by his reputation. And if I just never see any evidence that someone can be a good leader, even if they are currently not, then I can`t buy them. The ship`s captain should be a grounding figure on some level. The only time I ever saw a Rip who could be such a figure were the few seconds of his child self stabbing that assassin. In 14 episodes, that is too little for me.    

Edited by Aeryn13

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It occurs to me that sending Jax away in the jumpship is a good way of ending the needlessly expensive Firestorm (I say needlessly because IMO he hasn't done much, isn't really impressive, and as I've said before they already have a fire guy in Rory who is more interesting to watch) while keeping Victor Garber, who a lot of people seem to like. So long as Stein is on the Wave Rider and away from 2016 they can say he and Jax are safe from the whole being apart for too long kills them thing, and if he ever goes home they can go right back to being Firestorm again.

Edited by KirkB

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