S02.E18: Versus Zoom

[Oscirus]

Did Zoom go to Joe's house to kidnap Iris and wind up kidnapping Wally instead? 

 

Another thing that is problematic is that in the same episode where he talked about needing to defeat Zoom to keep the worlds safe, he made Zoom even more powerful for the sake of one person.  Admittedly, it's messed up what happened to Wally, but at that point, just from a hero's point of view, you have to cut your losses and sacrifice Wally for the good of the two worlds that you're trying to protect.

 

Was that ever more apparent than tonight when Iris is watching the two have a moment.  You just know she knows that Joe cares about Barry more than her.

 

The best part was that upon learning that his son wanted to live with him, Joe's first act was to make sure that Barry was ok with it. 

 

So is anybody waiting for the Gotham crossover next year when Barry gets even faster and accidentally winds up over there?

[Grace19]

@ Slayers, reading your posts about joe/barry/wally just made me hate this episode more than i did before. Barry has survived 25years without his speed, even if it wasn't wally's life on the line, nobody's life is worth less than barry's speed. But to have Joe even entertain the idea that barry's speed is too much a price to pay for wally's life is just terrible. The writers love barry so much that they find it hard to balance joe's love for barry and his children. Every time ( not most of the time) it comes across as if iris and wally are not even half as important to joe as barry is.

Iris confession comes across like she is motivated by destiny, but I don't think thats the whole story, so I will wait for iris to shed more light on her feelings. We might get that in episode 20, according to spoilers. I don't think even these writers are crazy enough to make her tell barry she loves him because of destiny.

[nksarmi]

Did Zoom go to Joe's house to kidnap Iris and wind up kidnapping Wally instead? 

 

Another thing that is problematic is that in the same episode where he talked about needing to defeat Zoom to keep the worlds safe, he made Zoom even more powerful for the sake of one person.  Admittedly, it's messed up what happened to Wally, but at that point, just from a hero's point of view, you have to cut your losses and sacrifice Wally for the good of the two worlds that you're trying to protect.

 

The best part was that upon learning that his son wanted to live with him, Joe's first act was to make sure that Barry was ok with it. 

 

So is anybody waiting for the Gotham crossover next year when Barry gets even faster and accidentally winds up over there?

 

Ok no way in hell is it "ok" to sacrifice Wally for the greater good of two worlds.  If anyone even suggested it - I would have turned the show off and never come back.

 

Barry is the moron who just HAD to go after a DYING Zoom to begin with. And I'm sorry - but rather he meant to do it or not - GG played that like it was personal for Barry.  Because he was fooled - he had to take Zoom down.

 

It's bad enough Barry went after a DYING Zoom but he didn't do it on Earth 2 with an arsenal and a damn good plan.  No - he does it on Earth 1 with a little pop psychology and an ankle bracelet. Come on show!  What happened to the gun that would slow Zoom down?  Why didn't they use that? Hell, why didn't they OD him with velocity nine?  It actually would be OK to kill the creep you know!??!

 

But no - Barry went in with a bad plan, brought Zoom to Earth 1 where he could hurt people Barry cares about, and then gibber gabbered too long and Zoom got loose (seriously, why didn't Barry run him into a containment cell?). Oh yea - because the show wants me to think Barry is a moron with a capital M!

 

So of course Zoom gets loose and kidnaps Wally and takes him back to Earth 2 (Not really sure how the hell he got back to Earth 2 but I'll ignore that big huge gaping plot hole for now). Wally sure as hell deserved to be rescued at that point.  If they didn't rescue him - I'd put Barry in the villain category.  Even Cold doesn't leave a friend behind!

 

Now if we want to critique the rescue strategy - I'm down with that.  Like if Barry is supposedly faster and you have a meta like Cisco and really smart people like Wells and Caitlyn - why don't you go to Earth 2 and rescue Wally?  You did it for Jesse. Sure I know you got Earth 2 Joe killed last time, but let's still call that a victory. And you said you'd go back for the man in the iron mask anyway!  So go team go to Earth 2!

 

Oh you're going to stay on Earth 1 and give Zoom your speed? Ok yea that makes sense.  Good job team.

 

Seriously?  Nobody was tricking Zoom?  And Barry's speed is really gone?  I'm so bored now.

[benteen]

Why do superheroes on TV feel like they have to keep their end of the bargain with villains? I will never understand that.

 

THIS.  It's okay to break your word when dealing with an evil and homicidal man.

[BkWurm1]

Going back in time and murdering your own "remnant", eh? Playing fast and loose and nonsensical and this isn't possible according to every well written time travel story ever. They better stop playing and give us the real story.

 

I can't make this time remnant thing work without also involving Zoom traveling between parallel worlds, but if I do, I think I have it figured out. 

 

The idea is say you go back in time and accidentally kill your grandfather.  By all logic, that should be the end of you as well, but if you didn't exist then you couldn't have come back and killed your grandfather which would mean you would still exist which would have led you to go back in time and accidently kill your grand father so that means you wouldn't exist and couldn't have killed grandfather so with him alive you do exist and so on forever and ever amen. 

 

The solution offered is that the moment you came back in time, you created a new parallel timeline to the one that existed before. Basically another AU world pops into existence.  That means that even if you go back and kill your grandfather, you still exist because in the timeline that you came from, your grandfather lived a long and happy life and beget many progeny.  That doesn't change BUT if you travel forward in time now, you are traveling in the new parallel world where there would be no record of you.  Going forward you won't be able to return to the future as you knew it UNLESS you can pop between universes.   

 

Zoom could go back into the past, pluck out his past self and drop him on E1.  That action would automatically create a world where going forward there is no Zoom.  Consider it E2-B.  That world continues on it's merry way and Joe the musician lives to annoy his son in law for a long time.  But after Zoom drops his younger self on E1, he returns not to E2-B but his original world E2-A.

 

Strictly traveling back and forward in time would make preserving the present timeline with you in it  impossible if you killed your younger self.   But since the instant you traveled back in time, you created a new parallel universe, the you that you remove from the timeline wouldn't affect your original time line and if you have a way of returning to your exact original universe (basically going sideways instead of just forward and backward) then yes, you could kill off your younger self even though technically you are now killing off your doppelganger from another universe.  

 

The trickiest part is how Zoom gets his doppelganger from the past to E1.   If he brought Reverb with him in the past and then they (Zoom, Reverb, and Hunter) popped from that moment over to E1 and then Zoom brought all of them forward in time, then Zoom and Reverb could just step through the portal connected to E2 and they would skip all the repercussions of time travel changing his future since Hunter would technically have been a different AU that had been newly created when Zoom went back in the past, but the portals between E1 and E2 would only connect to the universe where Zoom was still around. 

 

 But if Zoom just went back in the past and then brought Hunter forward in time, Zoom would still be stuck in the new AU timeline where Hunter vanished from the world before Zoom could exist.  But since they did have Reverb, they could technically make it work. 

 

Twins would have been WAY easier. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by BkWurm1

[mac123x]

Maybe Grodd will pop out onto Earth-1, manhandle Zoom for threatening Caitlin, and shake his head dismissively at Barry's stupidity and next season the show will be changed to Grodd and Friends. :D

 

When Grodd returned in S2 I honestly thought they were setting up a potential ally against Zoom.  Grodd's mental abilities sure seem like a good weapon against a speedster, considering how many times he's whupped Barry. 

 

Maybe Grodd is only effective on dimwits.

 

It bugs the crap out of me that the only answer to fighting is speedster is "I need to be faster!"  Given the number of non-speedsters that have at least temporarily taken Barry out, maybe try some of their techniques?  Grodd, Pied Piper, etc.

 

Or something simpler:  Zoom is chasing Barry, Barry puts on a respirator and runs into a room that's been pumped full of carbon monoxide.  Zoom's high metabolism should guarantee that he'd be down instantly.

[KirkB]

Okay, I've been thinking about it, and I believe I may have figured out where the issue I'm having is. Cisco saw Jay's face under Zoom's mask so he and everyone else assumed Jay was Zoom. Before that, no one knew who he was. Then Caitlin, who had been with Jay when he introduced her to Hunter Zolomon, mentioned his name and Wells perked up, saying "Hunter Zololmon?" in recognition because Zolomon was an infamous serial killer on Earth 2. It wasn't him realizing Zolomon was Zoom but recognizing the name, though apparently not the face. What I'm still a bit confused about is Jay. Was Jay Garrick a real person (in which case he might be the guy in the mask) or was he Zoom's time remnant all along, playing the role of hero for...reasons.

 

On a separate note, Cisco opened a portal and Zoom came through. Barry was an idiot, lost his speed and Caitlin, and Zoom took her back to Earth 2 and...wait. How did he do that, exactly? Get back to Earth 2? 

Edited April 21, 2016 by KirkB

[slayer2]

When Grodd returned in S2 I honestly thought they were setting up a potential ally against Zoom. Grodd's mental abilities sure seem like a good weapon against a speedster, considering how many times he's whupped Barry.

Maybe Grodd is only effective on dimwits.

It bugs the crap out of me that the only answer to fighting is speedster is "I need to be faster!" Given the number of non-speedsters that have at least temporarily taken Barry out, maybe try some of their techniques? Grodd, Pied Piper, etc.

Or something simpler: Zoom is chasing Barry, Barry puts on a respirator and runs into a room that's been pumped full of carbon monoxide. Zoom's high metabolism should guarantee that he'd be down instantly.

Oh no! Logic! Barry Allen's arch-nemesis. Don't make him fight that, he lost his speed.

[CletusMusashi]

Questions I can answer:

Zoom (God, no matter how many times I type that stupid name, I will always feel stupid!) intended to kidnap Iris, but when only Wally was there he had to settle for the booby (or lack thereof) prize.

Wells is using the deep raspy voice to symbolize that his character is toughening up. He seems to be emulating Wesley, from "Angel," except that in this case they forgot to explain it by including a traumatic throat injury

The reason Barry didn't just wait for Zoom to die is that Barry is an idiot.

The reason that they had the fight on Earth 1 is that Barry is an idiot.

The reason for the long conversation is that Barry is an idiot.

The reason they didn't double-cross Zoom is that Barry is an idiot.

 

Questions I can not answer: 

If Barry was like four times as fast as Zoom at the beginning of the episode, then how on either earth was even Barry idiot enough for Zoom to not only escape, but to outrun him, go to his house, write a message on the wall, kidnap somebody, and escape with them?

If the Zoom we see now is not the Jay or "Jay" that was interacting with Caitlin, then why does this one apparently have a thing for her? I mean, wasn't there a way more interesting version of her over on his world?

Is there some kind of a law that nothing associated with comic books can be fun any more? I swear, if "The Tick" were made today, they would probably kill off Arthur in the first episode. Another week of this incoherent gloom and I'm going to start hoping that King Shark comes back and eats the whole stupid lot of them.

Edited April 21, 2016 by CletusMusashi

[slayer2]

Questions I can answer:

Zoom (God, no matter how many times I type that stupid name, I will always feel stupid!) intended to kidnap Iris, but when only Wally was there he had to settle for the booby (or lack thereof) prize.

Wells is using the deep raspy voice to symbolize that his character is toughening up. He seems to be emulating Wesley, from "Angel," except that in this case they forgot to explain it by including a traumatic throat injury

The reason Barry didn't just wait for Zoom to die is that Barry is an idiot.

The reason that they had the fight on Earth 1 is that Barry is an idiot.

The reason for the long conversation is that Barry is an idiot.

The reason they didn't double-cross Zoom is that Barry is an idiot.

Questions I can not answer:

If Barry was like four times as fast as Zoom at the beginning of the episode, then how on either earth was even Barry idiot enough for Zoom to not only escape, but to outrun him, go to his house, write a message on the wall, kidnap somebody, and escape with them?

If the Zoom we see now is not the Jay or "Jay" that was interacting with Caitlin, then why does this one apparently have a thing for her? I mean, wasn't there a way more interesting version of her over on his world?

Is there some kind of a law that nothing associated with comic books can be fun any more? I swear, if "The Tick" were made today, they would probably kill off Arthur in the first episode. Another week of this incoherent gloom and I'm going to start hoping that King Shark comes back and eats the whole stupid lot of them.

I'm satisfied with these answers.

[twoods]

I don't know why the writers make a pretty likable superhero that we root for become really dumb to further the plot. Can't they write really good stories without dumbing down the characters? It's lazy story telling. I hope they rectify it soon and explain why Barry was a dumbass who gave up his speed.

[Cthulhudrew]

I think he is, too. Isn't Jay a scientist? How the hell does this Hunter guy know all this science crap?

 

I guess it explains why he always seemed to be conveniently out of the room when they needed to do anything remotely scientific (I remember being bugged by that all season).

 

If I'm mistaken and they ever did show him doing something scientific, or if they referenced him participating in something off-screen, I think you could fanwank it that he did the whole "fast reading" trick that Barry sometimes does, and had all the necessary scientific knowledge ready at hand, at least for a short period of time. Still, shouldn't have to fanwank things like that; show us, even if only in flashbacks, the character doing so.

[CletusMusashi]

I wouldn't even  complain about the story being dumb if at least it were still as enjoyable as it used to be.

First of all, they're trying way too hard to wow us with how brilliantly they can pull things out of their ass by using 'time travel" and "alternate realities," without actually putting any thought into all the complications and ramifications involved. Count me as one of those people who are still not over how they erased Thawne, yet he and Star labs and everyone's memories of him still existed. Stuff like that's gonna be the main plot of the show? Yech.

And second, I can still forgive stuff that doesn't make sense as long as it's a good ride along the way. Why doesn't Barry have to poop 200 times a day? Because it would get in the way of him having zany adventures every week? OK, no problem. But what happened to all the "zany?" I honestly don't think anyone, not even Cisco, made a single joke this week.

Edited April 21, 2016 by CletusMusashi

[Cthulhudrew]

The best part was that upon learning that his son wanted to live with him, Joe's first act was to make sure that Barry was ok with it. 

 

I thought that was primarily because it came up while the two of them were talking and Barry is still living with Joe; Iris isn't. I assume he asked her about it off-screen (which seems to be the only place Iris has anything to do with anyone most of the time.)

[Aeryn13]

 

The best part was that upon learning that his son wanted to live with him, Joe's first act was to make sure that Barry was ok with it.

 

Does Iris still live at home? Barry moved back in so IMO it`s natural to talk to him about someone else moving in. Especially with his secret, it concerns him more directly.

 

 

@ Slayers, reading your posts about joe/barry/wally just made me hate this episode more than i did before. Barry has survived 25years without his speed, even if it wasn't wally's life on the line, nobody's life is worth less than barry's speed.

 

I didn`t think Joe saying Barry couldn`t give up his speed was about Barry having speed at his leisure per se but not giving an already superpowered and dangerous sociopath something that makes him even more dangerous while at the same time disarming your own superpowered guy. That Barry would do it regardless was a predictable move but strategically, it was a big no-no.. And that they did it after Zoom had already handed Wally over and at a point where Barry could still try to fight was beyond insane.

 

Even if they feared Hunter would immediately grab someone else or speed out and re-take Wally, what they did end up doing was the worst thing possible.

 

I can get with the initial idea of going after Zoom. Whispery!Wells isn`t the king of Earth 2, he doesn`t get to decide if all the people over there should be left at Zoom`s mercy. Which, the answwer is no. If someone CAN do something about it, they have the responsibility to try IMO. But they also have to do it responsibly. Make an actual plan. The breaches were closed and they could decide on the time-table in opening one so make a workeable Zoom-trap. For example, the containment ring Barry put on him should have been some sort of speed-force leaching device. Make him human.  

[Ruby25]

I thought Iris did still live at home too.

[johntfs]

- Reverse Flash is Faster than Zoom? Jay/Hunter said doing a speed mirage was beyond him, but Thawne did it more than once. But Thawne couldn't get up enough Speed Force to time travel, which Barry can do and Barry's slower than Zoom. I can't keep up. The Speed Force has no rules!

 

It's the difference between sprinting and doing a marathon.  Thawne's problem was that he couldn't sustain the speed needed to travel through time.  Short bursts to do a speed mirage he could do.  Also, Zoom didn't say he couldn't do a speed mirage.  He stated that a spped mirage was not what other Jay was.

[Aeryn13]

 

Also, Zoom didn't say he couldn't do a speed mirage.

 

He said "even I`m not that fast". Which I took to mean, he can`t do it.

[bettername2come]

I think he meant not fast enough to make it look like he murdered himself and was on 2 earths at once.

[driedfruit]

I thought that was primarily because it came up while the two of them were talking and Barry is still living with Joe; Iris isn't. I assume he asked her about it off-screen (which seems to be the only place Iris has anything to do with anyone most of the time.)

 

I think we're supposed to assume she lives at home too, given the many times she has "come home" at nights and no reference to her living elsewhere. From what I recall, Joe has never discussed Wally with Iris (not unless she initiated the conversation). ~guy stuff 

[TwistedandBored]

This episode really proved to me that the writers really had to change who they wanted to reveal as Zoom. Initially they wanted Earth-2 Barry to be Zoom but had to change that cause literally most people guessed that. Really, if you look at Hunter/Zoom and Barry/The Flash's story, they are soo similar. Hunter's story parallel's with Barry's story. I am just saying it would explain a lot of things. 

[Cthulhudrew]

I think we're supposed to assume she lives at home too, given the many times she has "come home" at nights and no reference to her living elsewhere. From what I recall, Joe has never discussed Wally with Iris (not unless she initiated the conversation). ~guy stuff 

 

Could be. Maybe she moved back in after Eddie's death, but if so, I don't recall them ever mentioning it.

[KirkB]

I know she left home and moved in with Eddie, and Barry moved back. Since then, at least as far as I know, the show hasn't specifically said one way or the other but I was under the impression she still lives in the apartment she shared with Eddie.

[catrice2]

I thought there was an episode where they addressed that she moved home? 

[ottoDbusdriver]

On a separate note, Cisco opened a portal and Zoom came through. Barry was an idiot, lost his speed and Caitlin, and Zoom took her back to Earth 2 and...wait. How did he do that, exactly? Get back to Earth 2? 

 

I think you mean how did Zoom get back to Earth 2 ..... again ?

 

Because after he kidnapped Wally BUT before he stole Barry's speedforce, Zoom managed to take Wally back to Earth-2 to his lair -- since Wally was caged beside the Man in the Iron Mask.  Then Zoom took Wally back from Earth-2 to Earth-1 for the exchange.

 

So how was Zoom unable to create a portal between worlds and had to use the portal the Cisco created, but then could do it himself throughout the rest of the episode ?

 

And if Barry was "4 times" faster than Zoom thanks to the tachyon device, how come he could barely outrace Zoom ?  The writers on this show are SO inconsistent -- do they even have a show bible to kind of keep track of all the shit they pull out their collective asses ?

[tennisgurl]

There had to have been an easier way to explain the Zoom thing. There HAD to be. Just...what? His remnant? From a different time? Or something? I just watched the episode, and now I have officially gone cross eyed. 

[Whodunnit]

Audienceofone, now I need to work "give me your tall" into a conversation.

[Aeryn13]

 

And if Barry was "4 times" faster than Zoom thanks to the tachyon device, how come he could barely outrace Zoom ?  The writers on this show are SO inconsistent -- do they even have a show bible to kind of keep track of all the shit they pull out their collective asses ?

 

Didn`t they say Barry was now 4-times faster than his own previous record. Whereas Zoom was roughly at that point before so now Barry was slightly faster than even Zoom but not that much. 

 

 

So how was Zoom unable to create a portal between worlds and had to use the portal the Cisco created, but then could do it himself throughout the rest of the episode ?

 

I figured once Cisco was done creating a portal, the breach was again open for good so Zoom could use it at his leisure. 

[mac123x]

Is there some kind of a law that nothing associated with comic books can be fun any more?

 

Man of Steel, Batman V Superman... I guess "DC" stands for "Dark Comics".

 

And if Barry was "4 times" faster than Zoom thanks to the tachyon device, how come he could barely outrace Zoom ?

 

Barry was 4x faster than he used to be without the tachyon thingy.  Zoom was considerably faster than original-recipe Barry, so when Barry got the tachyon booster he might have just barely caught up to Zoom's existing level.

 

I'm fanwanking this, but maybe Zoom and Barry were equal when they originally got their powers.  Zoom boosted his with Velocity 6 drugs, and Barry boosted his with the tachyon thingy.   So maybe they're roughly equal now?

 

Alternatively, Barry is much faster than Zoom now, but since he wanted Zoom to chase him to a specific location, he didn't just leave Zoom in the dust.  Then when Zoom escaped after Barry's gloat-athon, Barry didn't use his superior speed to catch him because drama.

 

My head hurts.

[KirkB]

I think you mean how did Zoom get back to Earth 2 ..... again ?

Because after he kidnapped Wally BUT before he stole Barry's speedforce, Zoom managed to take Wally back to Earth-2 to his lair -- since Wally was caged beside the Man in the Iron Mask.  Then Zoom took Wally back from Earth-2 to Earth-1 for the exchange.

So how was Zoom unable to create a portal between worlds and had to use the portal the Cisco created, but then could do it himself throughout the rest of the episode ?

 

 

Good point. I suppose the breach Cisco opened could be open until they close it, they just didn't say that.

 

Barry being four times faster and still not that much faster than Zoom might be intended to show just how fast Zoom really is. 

 

I was curious about how when Zoom got up after Barry was being an idiot and gloated that he was able to get away. I figure even if Barry is faster, once Zoom was out of the building he could literally have gone in any direction and Barry had no idea which way to look.

[Oscirus]

Ok no way in hell is it "ok" to sacrifice Wally for the greater good of two worlds.  If anyone even suggested it - I would have turned the show off and never come back.

 

Barry is the moron who just HAD to go after a DYING Zoom to begin with. And I'm sorry - but rather he meant to do it or not - GG played that like it was personal for Barry.  Because he was fooled - he had to take Zoom down.

 

It's bad enough Barry went after a DYING Zoom but he didn't do it on Earth 2 with an arsenal and a damn good plan.  No - he does it on Earth 1 with a little pop psychology and an ankle bracelet. Come on show!  What happened to the gun that would slow Zoom down?  Why didn't they use that? Hell, why didn't they OD him with velocity nine?  It actually would be OK to kill the creep you know!??!

 

But no - Barry went in with a bad plan, brought Zoom to Earth 1 where he could hurt people Barry cares about, and then gibber gabbered too long and Zoom got loose (seriously, why didn't Barry run him into a containment cell?). Oh yea - because the show wants me to think Barry is a moron with a capital M!

 

So of course Zoom gets loose and kidnaps Wally and takes him back to Earth 2 (Not really sure how the hell he got back to Earth 2 but I'll ignore that big huge gaping plot hole for now). Wally sure as hell deserved to be rescued at that point.  If they didn't rescue him - I'd put Barry in the villain category.  Even Cold doesn't leave a friend behind!

 

Now if we want to critique the rescue strategy - I'm down with that.  Like if Barry is supposedly faster and you have a meta like Cisco and really smart people like Wells and Caitlyn - why don't you go to Earth 2 and rescue Wally?  You did it for Jesse. Sure I know you got Earth 2 Joe killed last time, but let's still call that a victory. And you said you'd go back for the man in the iron mask anyway!  So go team go to Earth 2!

 

Oh you're going to stay on Earth 1 and give Zoom your speed? Ok yea that makes sense.  Good job team.

 

Seriously?  Nobody was tricking Zoom?  And Barry's speed is really gone?  I'm so bored now.

I agree with everything you said and if Barry losing his powers only affected Barry, I'd say give them up. But in this case, the needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. Since Barry's the only thing standing between this city and other evil metahumans, there' no way he should be giving up his powers. 

 

I thought that was primarily because it came up while the two of them were talking and Barry is still living with Joe; Iris isn't. I assume he asked her about it off-screen (which seems to be the only place Iris has anything to do with anyone most of the time.)

 

That was my fault as I replied to that statement in a strange way. What I was complaining about was the fact that Joe is basically asking Barry for permission to let his son come live with him in his house. What if Barry would've said no?

 

As for Iris's living situation, it's always been fluid. She moved in with Eddie, moved back with her dad when she broke up with Eddie the first time,  moved back in with him when they made up, likely moved out again when they broke up again and was in the process of moving back in with Eddie when he died.  I'm pretty sure she's currently living at the west house.

[CabotCove]

I don't fault Barry for opening the portal to go after Zoom.  The people of Earth-2 are still people.  Leaving them to Zoom's non-existent mercy is just wrong.

 

Exactly this, a true hero would not just let people suffer, just because they are not on his earth. And he made a promise to rescue that  man in the mask, Zoom was coming for Flash anyway, why wait for the inevitable.

 

The Flash is doint a lot of stupid this season but this is not one of them.

 

Why doesn't Barry have to poop 200 times a day? Because it would get in the way of him having zany adventures every week?

 

LOL is this a serious question

 

Really, if you look at Hunter/Zoom and Barry/The Flash's story, they are soo similar. Hunter's story parallel's with Barry's story. I am just saying it would explain a lot of things.

 

Most heroes and their arch nemesis have parallels, I think it makes for a more complex story and characters. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by WildcardC

[CabotCove]

As for the "fault" issue: Yes, Wally getting kidnapped is mostly Barry's fault however it's a lot like the, "Into the Woods" song, "Your Fault." Barry didn't put a gun to anyone's head to help him. They all chose to, foolishly. That includes Joe who convinced Wells that he should let Barry do what he wanted and help him bring Zoom over when Wells was smartly against it. That includes Wells who built a machine which helped CIsco "vibe" a portal. That includes Cisco who eventually helped created the portal. They're all accessories to the "crime" except for Wally who doesn't know a damn thing. So I can't say this is all Barry's fault when these super smart "scientists" and a police officer all said, "Ugh! Fine! We'll help but we're gonna be protesty about it for a few minutes then go along with your halfcocked plan!"

 

Exactly right. 

The real culprit in all this, are the writers who planned this season. All the characters and the plot, have so many dumb moments this season.

[millennium]

A very disappointing episode.   Every now and then a victory with no strings attached would be nice.   Instead Zoom wins and we have to suffer through two or three weeks of Barry trying to adjust to life without powers that no sane person would have freely given away.  

 

It's a pity Wally was returned.   I was hoping Zoom would kill him.

[romantic idiot]

Aside: the show needs a Xander Harris the kind of truth teller that will threaten to cut a bitch if Caitlin doesn't come home safely, 'cause that boy and his ego are out of control.

 

Amen. Most show runners forget they that. They remember wise mentor Giles and smart tech magicker Willow who can also double as the innocent but they never remember to have a Xander and he is always needed. Here for example. Xander would have protested loudly. Of course, Buffy wouldn't have been that stupid.

[CletusMusashi]

Unless we remember Season 7. Which I choose not to.

[diebartdie]

Wells is using the deep raspy voice to symbolize that his character is toughening up. [it reminds me more of Lucy Lawless' voice the final season of Xena, she had destroyed her vocal cords by then from using a lower voice than normal]

Is there some kind of a law that nothing associated with comic books can be fun any more?

All the "fun" got allocated to Legends of Tomorrow, sorry!

[Irishmaple]

I don't normally comment on this show because I'm here solely for the Harrison Wells hotness, raspy voice and all. This episode though? Holy crap, that was bad. Barry, barely done cleaning up the mess that resulted from his last ill-advised misadventure, dives completely unprepared into the confrontation. One Zoom seemed fully prepared for. Clearly Zoom can read a room. He expected Barry to seek him out, he knew Cisco would be pulled in, and he was ready. Barry completely overestimated his own readiness. Fast wasn't enough; smart and ruthless were required too and Barry stopped at smug.

I hated how Joe and Harrison Wells had to get involved because Joe knew Barry would go ahead anyway, and they'd have to clean up the mess and live with the guilt unless they helped.

I think kidnapping Caitlyn was clever. Once Hunter gave in to her plea, he recognized Caitlyn as a weakness that could be used against him. Better to take her off the board. But, damn, evil Teddy Sears had charisma to spare. For a moment, I was all Harrison Who?

[ParadoxLost]

 if "The Tick" were made today, they would probably kill off Arthur in the first episode.

 

They are remaking the Tick.  Do not put that out into the universe:)

[KirkB]

I don't normally comment on this show because I'm here solely for the Harrison Wells hotness, raspy voice and all. This episode though? Holy crap, that was bad. Barry, barely done cleaning up the mess that resulted from his last ill-advised misadventure, dives completely unprepared into the confrontation. One Zoom seemed fully prepared for. Clearly Zoom can read a room. He expected Barry to seek him out, he knew Cisco would be pulled in, and he was ready. Barry completely overestimated his own readiness. Fast wasn't enough; smart and ruthless were required too and Barry stopped at smug.

 

 

It's worse than that. Smug as Barry was, his plan actually worked. He distracted Zoom enough to get him down and won their fight. It could have ended then and there. But no. Barry had to show off and gave Zoom time to recover.

 

I hated how Joe and Harrison Wells had to get involved because Joe knew Barry would go ahead anyway, and they'd have to clean up the mess and live with the guilt unless they helped.

 

 

As Joe pointed out, there is really no talking Barry out of anything once he mind is made up. Good or bad. He was going to open the portal and fight Zoom no matter what, so they had little choice but to help. Of course, their help mostly amounted to coming up with Cisco's new glasses and hiding in the safe room where Zoom couldn't reach them, but at least the latter was smart.

 

 

I think kidnapping Caitlyn was clever. Once Hunter gave in to her plea, he recognized Caitlyn as a weakness that could be used against him. Better to take her off the board. But, damn, evil Teddy Sears had charisma to spare. For a moment, I was all Harrison Who?

 

 

I can't disagree. Jay was dull. Hunter is kind of creepy. Maybe not as scary as when it was masked and mysterious, Tony Todd voiced Zoom, but still....

Edited April 24, 2016 by KirkB

[blugirlami21]

The more we talk about it, the dumber the episode becomes in retrospect.  I'm still mad that they stood around and had a nice chat about Zoom's motives while making the gadget that would transfer Barry's speed to Zoom.  Why didn't they attack him once Wally was "safe"?  I know Barry's a nice guy but I at least expected Harry to try something.  Why didn't he shoot Zoom when he wanted to?  I just don't understand the plan.  You gave a murderous villain even more power than he had before for seemingly no reason.  And there's nothing stopping him from killing you after he gets it.  What's the plan guys?  Why didn't Zoom kill everyone once he got what he wanted?  He sure didn't have any problem effing Barry up before.  Where was that Zoom?

 

Zoom is supposed to be super fast and ruthless even more than the reverse flash.  You needed two other superheroes and speed slowing nanites to help you just catch the reverse flash, not kill but catch.  You were also smart enough to lock him up in your superhero proof pipeline before even attempting to have a chat.  But the guy who almost paralyzed you and terrorized a whole city for months, all you need is a leg shackle and some cardboard cutouts to psych him out?  Really?  

 

I'm not upset that Barry wanted to save Earth 2 from Zoom.  I don't think a lot of people could sleep good every night knowing that you left a whole city of people to be terrorized by a serial killer literally on speed when there was something that you could do to help them.  I'm just upset that all of his plans were half-assed.  All of them.  When he tried to get Cisco to open the portal the first time, he didn't even look he was ready to fight Zoom let alone think that Zoom would be waiting for him when the portal opened.  He tried to catch him with the leg shackle thing but just because it held Barry for a couple of minutes doesn't mean it was going to work long term on someone faster and more devious.  Especially not with you monologuing like a villain.  Do that after you have him in the pipeline Barry.

 

Did Wally see that Barry was the flash?  I was too upset by the stupid things that happened to pay attention to what he saw.  I too don't think Iris lives at him anymore.  We've seen her at family dinners sure but I've seen no evidence to support the idea that she lives there like Barry and now Wally does.  I also didn't have a problem with Joe clearing Wally's living situation with Barry first.  Barry is his son too and he prob feels like it's Barry's house too.  Barry might even pay rent.  I think it was mostly to be nice.  I know that if my sister wanted to move back home, my Mom would prob run it by me first to see how I felt about it in vice versa.  I like that Wally is almost officially a part of the family now (Not being in the know about Barry being the flash not withstanding).  Growing pains are usually always annoying to watch on screen.

 

I'm not that concerned about Caitlin's kidnapping to be honest.  Hunter seems to have some affection for her and if he wanted to hurt her he would have done it already.  

Edited April 24, 2016 by blugirlami21

[AudienceofOne]

I think the problem is that the writers aren't ready for Wally to know that Barry is the Flash. So they had to find a way to get him out of there before Barry's mask came off. But the way it was framed just made everybody look stupid. Because the minute that Wally was safe, why wouldn't you just take Zoom out? You know the gun works - at least for the ten minutes before you monologue him free.

[CletusMusashi]

If I were Wally, I would move the hell out of there immediately. 

And, yeah, if necessary, take some of that damned money that Joe offered.

Pay it back when you can, if that makes you feel better.

But here's the thing to remember:

Being in normal people's houses does not involve being attacked by Kool Aid Sharks and Evil Gonzalez.

[zannej]

I know some of these points have already been made, but, I have quite a few nitpicks about the episode.

* Zoom was able to sense the portals opening up how? That made no sense.

* They know Zoom is dying, so why not wait it out? Why not just get the goggles to work for Cisco to check up on Earth2 so he can tell them what is going on with Zoom?

* Zoom somehow went back to Earth2 and then to Earth1 again with no explanation. Someone suggested that the new portal was permanent-- but they never stated that in the episode.

* I have to agree with pretty much everyone that said Barry standing around monologueing like a moron was asinine. His plan was just idiotic. He should have knocked him out and locked him in the pipeline before whipping out his proverbial penis and waving it in Hunter's face.

* I know some people suggested that it was wrong of Joe to want to give Barry a choice-- but Joe is not the most trusting person. And yeah, he was worried about Wally, but honestly, he should have realized that there was a chance that Zoom wouldn't hold up his end of the bargain. IMO, he should have suggested stalling and trying to find another way to save Wally.

* Harry was concerned that if Zoom got back to Earth1 that he would go after Jesse and everyone Barry and his team loved. He's proven he is quite uncouth and didn't seem to have much of a problem murdering Turtle. This is someone who kidnapped and tortured Harry's only daughter. Why would he actually go along with stealing Barry's speed to give to Zoom? ESPECIALLY after Zoom had led him on that he was going to let Jesse go if he complied but then said he was going to kill her anyway once he got what he wanted-- indicating that he could not be trusted. Once he got the speed he could have just wrecked everyone in the room.

* Even if Barry agreed to give up his speed, it doesn't mean that Wells and Caitlin had to go along with it. Wells could have said "F*** you!" and shot Zoom in the back or something. He and Caitlin could have tried to find some way to make it look like they were taking Barry's speed and then pull some switcheroo to knock Zoom out or take his speed away.

* As we've seen on other shows in this same 'verse, the heroes don't always hold up their ends of the bargain. Hell, Barry didn't actually hold up his end of the bargain with Eobard. He reneged at the last minute and didn't let Eobard return home. And letting Zoom have his speed was even worse than Wells giving V9 to Trajectory. I really hope Jesse bitch-slaps Barry when she sees him because he just gave Zoom even more power without knowing whether or not he would just kill everyone. He gave his speed to a freaking serial killer who had been lying to him from day 1!

* In addition to the plot-stupidity, I also had a problem with the pacing and setup for some of the scenes. Some things really seemed to drag and it just didn't seem right to me. There was something off.

* I can actually get why Wells might not have recognized Jay as Hunter Zolomon if he had only heard the stories but not actually paid attention to his looks, so I give him a pass on that one-- but I do give side-eye to the idea that nobody else on Earth2 figured out that "Jay Garrick" looked like Hunter.

* I can also buy that Wells was just speculating about how Hunter became Zoom-- although, I admit that I was surprised that electroshock was a thing on Earth2 given that a lot of things there seem to be more advanced. Electroshock seems a bit too cruel and archaic. It can also do irreversible brain damage. Hunter should have been wearing diapers and drooling-- although I suppose they will say the speedforce completely healed all of that.

* Unlike some others, I didn't find Teddy Sears as Zoom compelling at all. He was still bland and boring to me. I literally yawned while watching some of his scenes.

* I really hope that in a later episode they say that Harry actually did do something to screw Zoom over when he gave him Barry's speed.

* I still can't get over how stupid it was that they all allowed Zoom to get Barry's speed. Like, seriously, they got Wally back and then they just sat around and chatted. /facepalm

* I don't even care that Caitlin was taken.

* I hope that we get to see Iris letting Barry know about her feelings for him and that he doesn't act like a mopey idiot when she tells him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The ONLY thing I liked about this episode was when Barry was asking Iris where she was going, and she hemmed and hawed over her date with Scott (CLEAR she didn't want to go) and Barry's reaction to it. I FINALLY saw that Barry still loves Iris. And then, when Iris was walking away, the look on her face--looked like going to the dentist for a root canal. I loved it! And it made me happy she broke the date.

 

I don't think anyone has pointed this out-but Caitlin--the "Jay" that cared about you? Was the REMNANT and not Zoom. That is, it was Zoom, but it was his earlier self, who the future and present Zoom killed. So the current Zoom having a bit of a human moment, was so not believable for me. So what did I do? I naturally pulled out, well, okay, didn't pull it out, because it's on Netflix: watched JL: Flashpoint Paradox. Yes, I did. Even though I DETEST what happens with Diana and Arthur and the animation for them SUCKS. Especially Arthur.

 

Ahem The point I was going to make was, this was done so much better, even if it did leave me confused as to who Barry's nemesis was, because they referred to him as both Zoom and Thawne. Well, the Closed Captioning did anyway. But, that's a rant NOT for this thread.

[nksarmi]

Exactly this, a true hero would not just let people suffer, just because they are not on his earth. And he made a promise to rescue that  man in the mask, Zoom was coming for Flash anyway, why wait for the inevitable.

 

The Flash is doint a lot of stupid this season but this is not one of them.

 

LOL is this a serious question

 

Most heroes and their arch nemesis have parallels, I think it makes for a more complex story and characters. 

 

Actually I disagree with the idea that this wasn't one of Barry's dumbest moves ever because of course a hero would go save the city - even if it wasn't on his Earth.  And why? Because ZOOM was dying!!!!!!!!!

 

It would all be different if they didn't know that one crucial fact, but they did know it. And they knew he was going to die soon.  They also knew that Zoom wanted Barry's speed to cure him.  So let's think about this for just a minute.  What are the chances that you are going to make shit a whole lot worse if you put the ONE thing that can cure a dying villain within his reach to grab at? Yes, that's right about 100%!

 

(Please note - I'm not being snarky with you - I just really hated this episode/plot. I wish the writers could have had Caitlyn help with the V9 without revealing that Zoom was dying because that really changes so much in my head in regards to what Barry should have done.)

 

So if you are going to risk putting Zoom within reach of the ONE thing he wants more than anything else - Barry's speed - you darn well better have a good plan to stop him.  And what I saw play out as Barry gibber gabbered with Zoom while Zoom only had some kind of ankle bracelet on to stop him was not a good plan. This was a colossal mistake. And the worst part is that it was a mistake that could have been avoided.

 

Maybe if Barry could learn to separate Earth 2 from his Earth he would stop screwing things up so badly for people over there.  He got Earth 2 Joe killed because instead of carrying out his mission to save Harry's daughter, he had to go hang with Iris.  Then he got himself captured because he had to take away Earth 2 Barry's rightful place by his wife's bedside as Earth 2 Joe was in the hospital.  Then freaking Earth 2 Barry who has NO super powers had to give Barry a pep talk to rescue himself - holy crap!  And now the people of Earth 2 have to endure a fully powered Zoom (rather than one who was going to DIE soon) because Barry couldn't leave well enough alone.  Yea people of Earth 2 have good reason to hate Barry as far as I'm concerned but they'll probably throw him a Flash Day at the end of season two because the writers don't get how bad they are making Barry look.

Edited April 24, 2016 by nksarmi

[Ruby25]

I sometimes wonder if these Berlanti shows are so indebted to the Buffy formula of having a new Big Bad from the start of every season, that they commit to one without thinking it through all the way and then just have to half-ass it when it comes time to start tying things together. Maybe they should go back a step and just do more of a 90's style villain of the week type of show, but keep focusing instead on the character relationships, and then bring in the villain with his fully formed plan halfway through the season instead.

 

Before that you could maybe build him up with occasional, little scenes that show him doing or planning something that we don't get to see yet, but that the group doesn't know about at all. Honestly, that was kind of the way Reverse Flash worked last season, since Wells was fully part of the team as far as they knew, until about halfway in.

 

And I think that worked better because it allowed the show and Barry specifically, to have that light, fun, happy go lucky kind of feeling instead of keeping him in the dumps this entire year. The lightness was the charm of the show that people praised, and his adorable puppy dog attitude that's been missing this whole season.

 

And Buffy didn't always have the Scooby gang know about the Big Bad from the beginning either- for example, Angel didn't emerge as Season 2's villain until the second half, and while the Mayor was established in Season 3, they didn't become aware of his evilness until later on.

 

I just think setting up Zoom as the villain they're all aware of from the very beginning has really made it seem like a drag on this season when he kept showing up and then disappearing, but they had to keep talking about him anyway. I know the 23 episode season is a struggle, but I think structuring your villain story to maybe not ramp up until the second half, and then just devoting the rest to great individual episodes (while keeping the focus on continuity by developing the characters you have, like for example Caitlin and Cisco, or even having different characters interact with each other and not just Barry) will help sustain the show overall.

 

I also think they just really need to bring Happy Barry back somehow for the next season, because that really was one of the most appealing, key parts of the show (the contrast between "sunny" Central City and Arrow) and they've kind of let that go this year, which I think was a big mistake.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Ruby25

[BkWurm1]

As Joe pointed out, there is really no talking Barry out of anything once he mind is made up. Good or bad. He was going to open the portal and fight Zoom no matter what, so they had little choice but to help. Of course, their help mostly amounted to coming up with Cisco's new glasses and hiding in the safe room where Zoom couldn't reach them, but at least the latter was smart.

 

But without Wells' help, Barry could set his mind all he liked but his stubbornness wouldn't have opened the portal.

[ACW]

Forgive me if this was mentioned in a previous episode's forum:

So, why couldn't Barry (and Zoom) have gone back in time to when the rifts were open, crossed over then, and then gone back to the present (or just messed around in the past)? Sure, horribly risky, but probably not moreso than the go-back-for-help-from-Thawne plan.

And I know, the answer will be "Barry is an idiot," but is Zoom?

[Trini]

This episode had a whole lot of idiot plot, but one thing that was good was Barry's pep talk to Cisco about not turning into Vader.

And the fact that the two women in the cast had a meaningful conversation was good too. (But it still failed the Bedchel Test, though.)