S02.E18: Wrath Of The Villains: Pinewood

[formerlyfreedom]

After leaving Arkham Asylum, Barbara attempts to make amends with Gordon. Then, Bruce and Alfred track down one of Thomas Wayne's former friends from Project Chimera, but Hugo Strange disrupts their plans.

 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Welcome back James Frain.

[Primetimer]

The search for the Bruce Wayne's parents' killer gets some unexpected success.

Read the story

[HoodlumSheep]

This thread just ate my entire post. I am not pleased.

Let's try this again:

-good to see Mr. freeze again

-not happy to see Theo in all his 1-dimensional cartoon glory returning to the show. And now he's Azrael? Urgh.

-Harvey continues to be way underused, but it was adorable when he was smashing the pizza box trying to get into Jim's apartment to see if he was alright

-Babs gives me trust anxiety. Her hair and wardrobe were fab this episode, though.

-yay for the alfred/bruce/jim/lucius team up

-poor Karen! I liked her. Her raptor claw was cool too.

-winning scene of the night (by far) was Hugo and Ms. Peabody in those big coats with the giant fur hoods. They are the ultimate, quirky evil duo.

ETA: forgot to mention that it's good to see Butch and Tabby again. I wish Zsaz would reappear soon, though. I miss him and the Zsazettes.

Edited April 19, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Chaos Theory]

I think this might have been my favorite episode in a long time. I love crazy Barbara and her scenes with the Lady in the all women's criminal club was made of win. I wouldn't mind a spin off with Babs being half a good guy and half a bad guy. That would be awesome.

[Spartan Girl]

I'm glad Jim told Babs to go fuck herself. Would have loved for him to add that she was a shitty girlfriend long before she went psycho, but whatever.

Not surprised Dr. Strange is the one that put the hit on the Wayne's.

[Lokiberry]

Oh Victor, Bruce is going to remember that.

 

I loved Barbara tonight. Watching Babs strut around all shady lady, with a plan, makes me sad for what could have been if they hadn't screwed it up so badly in the beginning. If this is what they started with, she could have been awesome, but now she's gone back to Tabitha and the crazy will soon follow.

 

Anyway, when did Bruce get nearly as tall as Jim? I swear they were looking eye to eye at the end.

 

I don't mind Galavan, but I was hoping for Jerome. Dr Strange and Miss Peabody may be the most fun villains this show has ever had. BD Wong is clearly having the time of his life.  

[immortalfrieza]

I'm glad Jim told Babs to go fuck herself. Would have loved for him to add that she was a shitty girlfriend long before she went psycho, but whatever.

Me too, though what's sickening it's clear that the writers want us to pity Barbara and be against Jim if anything.

 

 

Not surprised Dr. Strange is the one that put the hit on the Wayne's.

I'd have been really surprised and pleased if they had brought in some villain we've never seen before as the true mastermind behind the Wayne murders, because that would be a shocking swerve. However yeah, Strange might as well have being running around town screaming "I KILLED THE WAYNES!" over and over for all the subtlety they bothered to put into that revelation.

 

Once again, like all of TV nobody knows what a head shot or disabling shot or any other kind of shot is except a shot to the torso unless the genre involves zombies and even then only rarely. The only way Victor happened to be a threat is because nobody involved even TRIED to go for a head shot.and just kept trying to shoot his very clearly well armored body.

Edited April 19, 2016 by immortalfrieza

[Philbert]

 

Welcome back James Frain.

 

 

Yeah, when he 'died' I was fairly sure we'd see him again eventually. This was pretty quick actually.

[The Wild Sow]

All the time Karen was telling them she could still see the Man in Charge's face?

 

And Bruce or Alfred couldn't say, "OK, what'd he look like?"

 

"Uh.....weird little Asian dude.....pink glasses.....etc., etc....."

[Lantern7]

"I think the man who killed your parents used his real name." "My God. What was it?" "Hugo Strange." "Okay, so we're looking for 'The Philosopher,' then."

 

DVRed this so I could watch the Supergirl finale "live." I'm dumbfounded about why this neck of the woods is as barren as Kris's temporary resting place. As dark and as silly as it can be, Gotham is worth watching. That said, we could have used a little Oswald and Ed this week. I guess they needed a breather. . . particularly Oswald, who fed his father's wife her own kids before killing her.

 

-winning scene of the night (by far) was Hugo and Ms. Peabody in those big coats with the giant fur hoods. They are the ultimate, quirky evil duo.

 

I took it as a nod to the Sixties series, where Mr. Freeze's henchmen would wear parkas. That was funny. Parkas are not badass. Not even Leonard Snart over on Legends of Tomorrow can make that work.

 

Hi, Missy! Bye, Missy! And I can live with the "Is she crazy?" plot with Barbara.

[Jediknight]

I said from the beginning that Oswald was the one that ordered the hit on the Waynes, yep, when you're right 2% of the time you're wrong 98% of the time.  I was way off.

 

Barbara going all crazy evil was sexy.  I need help, I know.

 

Fantastic episode for Bruce's growth.  It's too bad that Mazooz is too young to be Batman, because with the job he's done this season, I'd like to see what he could do as a full fledged Batman.

 

Harvey's reaction to seeing Barbara was hilarious.

[thuganomics85]

Talk about continuing to throw cannon out the window.  Hugo Strange is the one who killed Bruce's parents (unless there is another swerve going on), and Azrael is a Resurrected Theo Galavan.  At least I can safely say that I can never predict that this show is going to do next!

 

Oh, Barbara.  I have no idea what to make of her, but Erin Richards continues to be much better at playing her as unhinged and a nutso, compared to the boring girlfriend from way back in season one.  I have no idea if she was sincere or not, and if throwing back in with Tabitha and Butch was always the plan or she chose to because Jim rightfully pushed her away, but until then, I'm going to enjoy whatever craziness she brings.

 

Bruce and Alfred's adventures ended up being waste, since Kate was obviously being set up to die and Lucius pretty much figured it all out for them in a few seconds. It was really dumb of them to not even ask for a description.  That way, if something did happen, they would at least know to look for a scientist who was bald, kind of creepy, and looks like Dr. Huang from Law & Order: SVU.

 

I see Victor is already rocking the Dr. Freeze look now!

 

Barely any Bullock, although his reaction to Barbara almost made up for the lack of screentime.

 

So, yeah, still not sure if I'm going to like Theo being Azrael, but at least James Frain will no doubt camp it up, which might be fun.

[The Wild Sow]

 

I see Victor is already rocking the Dr. Freeze look now!

We saw he was rocking body armor, and NO head protection.  And Jim & company just kept bouncing bullets off his chest!  While we were sitting there yelling, "Head shot, Jim....HEAD shot!!!!"

[darkestboy]

Great episode. Gordon and Barbara teaming up was oddly fun and Barbara felt pretty unpredictable as a character as well. It's almost a shame she went back to Tabitha and Butch though.

 

The Lady is an interesting character but they could do some more with her, right?

 

Hugo Strange is involved in the Wayne murders? Not sure how I actually feel about that one to be honest. I do like him and Peabody though.

 

Victor emerged too soon as Freeze and I was disappointed we lost Karen as I liked her scenes with Bruce and Alfred this week.

 

Theo as Azrael is not something I saw coming, 8/10

[SoSueMe]

I don't have any real Batman background but I really like this show. I can't believe how into it I am. I've heard of some of the other characters by osmosis, like Penguin (my favorite) and Riddler. Was the Karen character an established character in the comics? Really short gig for that poor actress.

[Lokiberry]

I've got middling knowledge of the comics, and I've never heard of Karen before. She was probably just a one-off for the show. The actress gave a good performance, and I also loved her with Bruce.

 

David Mazouz is fast becoming the MVP of this show. Every storyline that he gets involved with becomes more compelling.

[opus]

"I promise to keep you safe" = "You'll be dead by the end of the show"

[Spartan Girl]

 

Me too, though what's sickening it's clear that the writers want us to pity Barbara and be against Jim if anything.

 

Barbara dumped Jim to screw around with her ex and never even bothered to return his calls.  She went psycho and murdered a whole bunch of people.  She tried to kill Lee over pure sour grapes.  And we're supposed to suddenly feel sorry for her just because she apparently had five minutes of "remorse" and she's all by her lonesome?  

 

Ain't working for me.  Barbara used up her pity party a long time ago.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[Traveller519]

Huge props to both Erin Richards and David Mazouz for how far they've come since the first half of the first season.

 

Erin playing Barbara straight was far more compelling than we have previously seen, and the feeling that unhinged Barbara can be right around the corner only adds to that. She even had pants on when at Butch and Tabitha's!

 

Karen was really interesting. Good at heart, but couldn't be trusting given everything she's been through, and also not wanting to drag more people into her issues.

[Delphi]

See, I actually wouldn't mind having Barbara become a reformed villain. I think that's actually an interesting idea. If course the plot of this show moves at the speed of light so she's already back with Tabitha but I wanna hold on to hope that she could still be good, or at least morally grey.

Bruce is possibly the only reason I'm still enjoying this show as much as I am. David is a fantastic actor and he's growing up very fast.

I'm glad that he and Alfred are finally accomplishing things instead of just reacting to situations.

[Biggie B]

Barbara dumped Jim to screw around with her ex and never even bothered to return his calls.  She went psycho and murdered a whole bunch of people.  She tried to kill Lee over pure sour grapes.  And we're supposed to suddenly feel sorry for her just because she apparently had five minutes of "remorse" and she's all by her lonesome?

 

Agreed. I can't stand the character and wish that Jim had killed her long ago. I didn't like her when the show began, I didn't like her when she was bad, I didn't like her in Arkham, I don't like her now. I find the character wearisome and am not in any way invested in her. I'll throw her a cookie for getting The Philosopher's name out of that other woman - bully for Babs - but now she can be gone.

[blackwing]

Ugh, I am so tired of James Frain and his overacting.  He's very one note and all he seems to do lately is to play villains.  He's like Damien Darhk on "Arrow"... just won't go away.

 

I thought we were going to be on a multiple episode arc looking for "The Philosopher".  Because honestly, Karen is the ONLY person who knows what he looks like, so she conveniently dies.  Here's a tip, Super Detective Gordon:  "Could you identify him?"  "Of course!  I see his face in my dreams"  "Describe him for me."  "He's about 50 years old.  Asian.  Bald.  Wears glasses.  Doctor.  Psychiatrist."

 

Wouldn't that have narrowed things down considerably?  Thank goodness we got that photo with the nicknames otherwise we would have been on the hunt for a long long time.

[Philbert]

 

 

Yest. 11:39 am

"I promise to keep you safe" = "You'll be dead by the end of the show

 

 

^ This post right here.

 

Anyway, when did Bruce get nearly as tall as Jim? I swear they were looking eye to eye at the end.

 

Yeah it's always interesting when the young kids they cast end up being bigger than the stars by the end of the series. I think it's called the Michelle Trachtenberg effect :)

[Danielg342]

That was...a trainwreck. What a waste of 43 minutes. All that meandering...and for what? To be resolved in five minutes with a little computer searching by Lucius Fox.

 

Truth be told, of all the instances where a female character is drawn up just to be killed (an unfortunate all too common occurrence on this show), Karen Jennings' was the worst. She served no actual purpose except to give Bruce Wayne manpain. Seriously...blech. OK, she was needed to show what Pinewood Farms actually was, but beyond that, she wasn't needed. At all. Bruce could have driven her back to Wayne Manor, interviewed her there and set her up with a new identity...and she wouldn't have had to have been killed.

 

...but, I guess women aren't good for anything else, right Bruno?

 

The worst part is that Jennings couldn't have been bothered to fight Victor Fries when he stopped the Blackgate van (I'd love to know how he knew where it was going). All right, so she decided to sacrifice herself so that Fries wouldn't go after Jim, Bruce or Alfred, but it's still a terrible way to go. Couldn't she at least have fought back? Died with dignity? You don't give a character a raptor's arm and don't effectively use it. It's as if the show needed to have an exclamation point that she's just there to be a "tragic death", a character Bruce can pine for and "remember why he's doing what he's doing" without having to actually sacrifice anyone significant. It's sickening, really. Sickening.

 

(Side point- why didn't Mr. Freeze try to kill Jim, Alfred and Bruce? He should have surmised that Jennings would have told them who "The Philosopher" was, because he had no way of knowing at that time they didn't know "The Philosopher" was Hugo Strange. For a guy sent to tie up loose ends, he sure left plenty ropes dangling)

 

The rest of this episode? Call me crazy, but I kind of liked Barbara in this one. I actually believed she'd turned a corner, and I was sad that Jim didn't take her back. I would think that rescuing you from your torturer instead of killing you like you thought would happen would at least strike a chord, but apparently it didn't with Jim. I didn't blame him for what he did though- Barbara is still the one who tried to kill Lee, and who knows if this isn't all still an act anyway. I did get a hint of manipulation behind Barbara, so it looks like Jim made the right decision.

 

(Besides, Barbara merely stunned The Lady- so Jim knows she could come back)

 

I did like Hugo Strange, but when is that news? B.D. Wong is just magnificent. I hate that he orchestrated the Wayne murders, because now I fear he's toast by the end of the season. A villain this good should have staying power.

 

Oh, and Azrael? Well, welcome back Theo Galavan. Glad you're back...not. OK, as the deranged, butt-kicking Azrael he could be fun...he just shouldn't be a mastermind. Leave that to a guy who can actually command, like Strange.

 

The Bullock Meter- 4. Our dear friend Harvey Bullock was in a few scenes and he had some good moments (like being shocked at seeing Barbara, the "Whammy Drawer" and taking potshots at Alvarez's competency), but he really didn't do a whole lot. He was still memorable, but he was still underused tonight.

 

Episode Grade- D-. Pacing was good and few other points, but otherwise, this was a dreadful hour.

[Kathemy]

Truth be told, of all the instances where a female character is drawn up just to be killed (an unfortunate all too common occurrence on this show), Karen Jennings' was the worst. She served no actual purpose except to give Bruce Wayne manpain. Seriously...blech. OK, she was needed to show what Pinewood Farms actually was, but beyond that, she wasn't needed. At all. Bruce could have driven her back to Wayne Manor, interviewed her there and set her up with a new identity...and she wouldn't have had to have been killed.

No, Karen didn't die to give Bruce what sexists refer to as "man pain." She very clearly died to further drive home the misguided point that "Selina can never be a part of this." That's the main reason they bothered including that in the "previously on Gotham..." section: "I will not have you put that little girl's life in danger. It's either the work or it's her."

 

That said I hated Karen's death but that was only the second worst decision of the episode. The worst was how they handled Mr Freeze.

 

My review here: Doux Reviews <> Gotham <> Pinewood

Edited April 21, 2016 by Telepath

[Danielg342]

Semantics, really. It was a ridiculous reason anyway, and Bruce still brooded over her death.

I think the real problem is that this show resorts to death too much as a form of drama. At this point, it's become cheap. They need to come up with something else.

[Chaos Theory]

Wait if Galavan is back this means Jim hasn't actually killed anyone. He is back to boring again. How the hell is the least interesting character on the show the lead?

[Snookums]

Okay, so I FINALLY get to post about this damn episode after Comcast On Demand was offline for three days!

 

I wouldn't mind a spin off with Babs being half a good guy and half a bad guy. That would be awesome.

 

 

Can someone tell me why Erin Richards is not the friggin' lead on this show??? She is HILARIOUS. And frankly, trying to convince me that James Gordon, Theo Galavan murderer/current vigilante is so above her morally ain't working for me, especially when he tries to get all high horse about it. I'm not saying he doesn't have plenty of good reasons to be pissed off at her--trying to kill your baby mama isn't an endearing trait--but the whole "Jim Good Barbara Bad" thing is sophistry at its worst. My husband predicts that they're going to end with Barbara as Harley Quinn and Jim as the Joker, and frankly I'm not so sure he's wrong.

 

The rest of the plots were fun as well, excepting poor Karen's demise, of course. I was rapturously in love with the dainty little velociraptor claw the second I saw it and wish she had a chance to do more with it. When Bruce and Alfred were trying to convince her to come with them I kept waiting for them to go "C'mon! You can hang your claw out the window and slash mailboxes! It'll be fun!"

 

I am glad to see I was not the only one screaming HEAD SHOT at the two ex cop/ex British Army guys during the Freeze episode. Oh, brother.

 

Strange and Peabody all dressed up as Teddy Bears Of Frozen Hell Wastes made me so happy.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Snookums

[Delphi]

The thing that bothers me in the treatment of Barbara is that she was driven insane before she tried to kill Leslie. That's why she was in Arkham and not prison. Because she needed mental care to cure her. Sure she's still crazy but Jim had no way of knowing that. And honestly it's his fault that she was targeted by a psychotic and abused and tortured before she did go crazy. Yet he's all "I can't forgive you" uh, Jim you're not completely in the moral clear here, maybe you should be asking her to forgive you.

[TobinAlbers]

Wee Jim Gordon just beating the crap out of thugs twice his size never gets old to me. Jim's angry and gives no craps. Bullock's whammy drawer and Jim's reaction to the nunchucks were priceless. Jim himself should be in the drawer since he's a whammy weapon with flying fists and feet of fury.

As much as Babs annoys me, I'll give the show props by not simply offing her when she wasn't working and reconceiving her role on the show and gently nudging her in that direction. She's a lot more entertaining and complex and is a legit antagonist for Jim. Girlfriend looked fabulous in that black and white dress. Erin's really come into her own.

Jim at least told her straight that she can't use him as a reason to be a better person as that is her choice to make. And then Babs does what she does when she's put out by Jim, run to another woman. Season 1 it was Montoya, season 2 it was Tabitha.

I liked what we saw of Karen. She would've been a great addition to the BatTeam. Sad she was killed but her purpose of being a 'message from his father' as well as giving example of what Alfred said last week of bringing others into this risking their lives (i.e. Selena) was met. Bruce needed this lesson in that there will be a cost to his pursuit of personal justice and that even the most innocent thing as locating and meeting someone can lead to their deaths. It's teaching him to be careful and realize that he plays a role however indirectly in other people's lives.

Bruce's shocked outrage that a 'friend' betrayed his father was great. 'That's not fair!'

FOX/WB y'all have got have more money and better skilled people to make a better photoshopped picture of Hugo and Thomas than that. Sheesh!

[Camera One]

I liked the scenes with Bruce and Karen, though as said above, it was obvious she was the cannon fodder the writers feasted on this episode.  She could have just given the address for Pinewood. And Lucius wasn't smart enough to do a cryptic search for Karen on the Wayne Enterprises computer system?  

 

Hate Galavan so not looking forward to him back.  I don't care for Barbara as a villain either.  I'm sick of the flip-flopping of any long-term villain on shows.  

 

I still liked this episode because there was so much Bruce and Alfred, and working with Jim.  Harvey was great at the beginning. 

 

Hugo Strange being the one to put the hit out is a little anticlimatic, especially after all this time.  Hopefully, there's more to it.  What about the corrupt as hell Board of Directors?

[driedfruit]

Doesn't seem like Strange is working alone, the Board of Directors must be paying the bills at Indian Hills and while they might not be closely monitoring his experiments I assume there is a larger goal. How much they diverge on those plans could be the next arc. I just never want Hugo or Peabody to leave. They're such a delight.

Bruce is fast becoming the star of the show. He was always for me, but the writers seem to be also recognizing it. I find his shenanigans with Alfred and whoever else the most enjoyable parts. I know origin stories get a bad rep, but if anyone deserves an extended one, it's baby Bats. Even Gordon is more likeable around Bruce.

This Barbs was great. I'm hopeful for her again.

[stuckin60s]

Every episode Alfred is my favorite. 

 

as far as Barbara, people have mentioned that she did try to kill Jims girl.  no one mentions she DID kill her parents

[crowsworks]

Hate Galavan so not looking forward to him back.  I don't care for Barbara as a villain either.  I'm sick of the flip-flopping of any long-term villain on shows.

 

I was taken out of the scene by the foam biceps built into his leotard.

 

as far as Barbara, people have mentioned that she did try to kill Jims girl.  no one mentions she DID kill her parents

 

Picky, picky.... Really I'm just trying to imagine her doing something heroic enough to earn a namesake. Explain that to the kid.

[jhlipton]

On 4/21/2016 at 5:26 PM, Telepath said:

No, Karen didn't die to give Bruce what sexists refer to as "man pain." She very clearly died to further drive home the misguided point that "Selina can never be a part of this." That's the main reason they bothered including that in the "previously on Gotham..." section: "I will not have you put that little girl's life in danger. It's either the work or it's her."

Selina (and Karen, and Leslie) "can't be part of this", but Jim, Alfred and Lucius can.  That's why I for one see it as sexist.

BTW, I totally agree with your review.  I especially like what you said about Karen:
 

Quote

I will not lie, I mourn the death of Karen Jennings. This was Hugo Strange's first patient. A character with a solid, working backstory, a dubious "superpower" which felt Just Right for the atmosphere of Gotham, portrayed by a strong actress and playing perfectly off David - and they killed her in less than one hour. A reasonably sane and likeable female character on a show where - during the maternity leave of Morena Baccarin playing Leslie - those creatures are temporarily extinct.

Well said.

Edited May 1, 2016 by jhlipton
Added comment

[Kathemy]

How to put this... It's not very easy to bone out the details.

Selina "can't be a part of this" because Bruce is in love with Selina and her getting killed would wreck him. Alfred realizes this. Bruce is compelled to keep her out to "protect her", which I find misguided, but nevertheless that's what the show is selling. It attempts to keep the basic Batman mythology of Selina not knowing Bruce's secret identity. Given the unique circumstances of Gotham's canon, which deviates from classic Batman, I feel this is a mistake as well.

Simply put, Karen is a Selina stand-in. She dies to scare Bruce into accepting Alfred's take on it. I hated her dying for a number of reasons none of which have anything to do with sexism.

Leslie "can't be a part of this" because Jim's in love with her. Same reasons apply, only Lee's no fighter and she's got no special skills to offer, and it's not like Bruce has ever contemplated bringing her in. That said... down the line I think that Lee will find out about his extracurricular activities, if the show wants to loosely adhere to Batman canon, which would include her growing closer to both Bruce and especially Alfred.

Of course Alfred is a part of it. He's Bruce's bodyguard, tasked with protecting his life at any cost. Jim's been involved from the very start, he's been the detective in charge of the Wayne investigation, but please note that Jim doesn't know about the Batcave either.

Lucius is a very special animal. Lucius was the one who told Bruce how to find the Batcave. We haven't been given any reason why Lucius would know this, and I frankly feel the show has dropped the ball on that one. Nevertheless Lucius has actually been involved with this, or "in the know", longer than any other character on the show.

What the show is doing right now in this regard is simply establishing various characters' "security clearance" to more-or-less match Batman canon, and that has nothing to do with sexism on its part.

The main sexist trope of this show when it comes to death and dying is what's commonly referred to as the "men are the expendable gender" trope, which states, among other things, that if hordes of faceless nobodies are to be brutally eviscerated they will be male, and if you need a tragic death to motivate the main characters, the victim will be female. Obviously this carries a lot of unfortunate implications for both genders and it's a line of thought that permeates almost every show that ever aired, and Gotham isn't even particularly heavy on it.

If, then, the narrative of a show is male-dominated - which is hard to avoid to some extent if most of your main characters are male - it stands to reason that most of the deaths on the show are in service of the men. This isn't always so on this show. Bridgit "died" in service to Selina. 

There are other things to add but I think that'll suffice for now.

[John Potts]

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 4:39 PM, opus said:

"I promise to keep you safe" = "You'll be dead by the end of the show"

I thought exactly that! I do wish people wouldn't say "I promise I can protect you" instead of "I'll do what I can to protect you" because... don't make promises you can't keep. Bruce could reasonably point out he has a) vast resources (admittedly, she already knew that) and b) has survived previous attempts on his life.

I don't know about anyone else, but if I was planning a jailbreak, I'd keep the talking to a minimum. Maybe the driver will keep shtum, but they've left themselves vulnerable in case they start talking. "Well, it was a guy, and English guy and a kid." And while the GCPD are corrupt as hell, when "A guy, an English guy and a kid" are arrested for breaking into a facility and shooting somebody, maybe the might put the facts together (and even in Gotham, how were they released so quickly!?)

 

On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 2:13 AM, HoodlumSheep said:

Babs gives me trust anxiety. Her hair and wardrobe were fab this episode, though

 

It does look like they will reconcile eventually (and produce BabyBabs), but I'm glad he isn't "Well, you killed your parents and tried to kill my girlfriend, but - well, what relationship doesn't have its ups and downs!"

[Chas411]

Welcome back Theo