S06.E01: The Red Woman

[WindyNights]

One change I have to admit liking is Cersei telling Jaime about the prophecy. I believe that the prophecy was a retcon and it never made any sense to me that Cersei wouldn't share that with her twin especially at that age. I could believe her keeping it to herself if we didn't see her talk to not one but two characters who are virtual strangers to her. I could just about buy her telling Qyburn but to tell Taena too? That struck me as ridiculously unbelievable so I thought having Cersei finally tell Jaime about it in this episode now that she's down to one kid made a lot of sense.

Another thing that occurred to me is that Jaime doesn't look at Cersei's hair with any curiosity. I'm not expecting her hair to be the first thing on his mind since they're dealing with the death of their daughter, but it did strike me as odd that Jaime doesn't seem to have been told about the walk yet. I'm curious as to whether or not this is going to be on his mind during that visit with the High Sparrow.

I think Loras has a date with Lancel and Lancel will surprise everyone by being the winner.

I agree that there's every reason to think that Melisandre will be part of Jon's resurrection.

I believe there's an interview saying that GRRM had the prophecy in mind for Cersek from the beginning.

Although if he didn't, I suppose GRRM wanted to deconstruct the Evil Queen from Snow White using Cersei.

[Chris24601]

Really?!?!?! I feel like Davos would be useless amidst real players. Inspiring people is all well and good, but I feel like the Onion Knight would be cut into pieces if he had to get into the political ring with just about anyone in Kings Landing. LF, Varys, Olenna, Tywin, Margaery, Tyrion. Ned Stark was honorable but he didn't know how to deal with dishonorable people. And it doesn't mean just slaughtering villages, I consider the Tyrells dishonorable, secret assasinations, switching sides left and right. LF can teach her how to deal with people like himself much better then Davos Seaworth IMO.

In addition to the previously mentioned "grew up in Fleabottom and was a good smuggler so is probably pretty good at reading people and sniffing out BS there's also one critically important factor to consider...

i.e. Just how many of those 'real players' do you think are even remotely equipped to survive the coming Ice Zombie Apocalypse on one side and Fire and Blood of Dothraki hordes backed by living WMD's that already have wingspans of over a hundred feet (and will probably double again for next season like they have every one before) on the other side?

That's the whole irony of it all. These power hungery jackasses have wasted so many lives and resources on their stupid power games that they are now completely unprepared for the coming existential threat that can't be outschemed, bribed or blackmailed.

No, the need for inspiring leaders to rally the people to fight together (instead of against each other as all the 'real players' keep doing) is going to critical for Westeros, not just during the battles against the armies of the dead from the North and the Fire and Blood conqueror from the East, but to rebuild from the wreckage left in its wake.

The world (and Sansa) needs Davos a heck of a lot more than it needs Littlefinger.

[meep.meep]

I was also amused by the "It is known".  It annoyed me in the books when Jhiqui and Irri repeated it over and over but it was a nice touch to the Dothraki scene.

 

No love for Khal Moro and the greatest things in life?  I laughed the first time I saw it, and I counted the second time.

[MrWhyt]

No love for Khal Moro and the greatest things in life?  I laughed the first time I saw it, and I counted the second time.

I loved it his "it's in the top 5" was great.

[Eyes High]

I think Moro having two chatty wives was likely a callback from the writers to Irri and Jhiqui. I think having the wives casually insult Dany and call for her execution while using their "It is known" catchphrase was the writers pointing to how far Dany has come (or fallen, depending on how you look at it) from her time with the Dothraki.

 

The world (and Sansa) needs Davos a heck of a lot more than it needs Littlefinger.

Davos has shown an ability to take a lot of wild shit in stride. However, Littlefinger prides himself on being supremely adaptable. Who's to say he would completely fall apart in the face of a supernatural curveball, when so far he's been able to handle everything thrown at him? Tyrion didn't when there was a living weapon of mass destruction burning people alive right in front of him, and Littlefinger is even more adept at improvising than Tyrion.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[Clanstarling]

Yes, thank you. I kept waiting for Sansa to say "Pod? What are you doing here?" or something to acknowledge that she knows him. Wouldn't she be wondering why and how in the hell Pod got there? And what happened to Tyrion?

I just figured it's like how you know someone in a specific context, and then you see them in a grocery store and you're like "oh, he looks familiar. Who the hell is he?", only, you know, in far more harrowing circumstances where you've just escaped from a monster, been recaptured, been rescued via a terrible, bloody battle and just accepted an oath of fealty by a giant woman. You might not be able to give your full attention on her sidekick.

I thought about waiting to watch the show until the new book came out (whenever that will be). There are a number of shows I watch only once they're out on Netflix or Amazon, so I figured waiting wouldn't hurt.

Ultimately I decided to watch. I was surprised at how freeing it was, to watch the show without any idea where they were going with the story, what anyone's fate would be - and whether it will be anything like GRRM's vision. I just sat back and enjoyed (well, not so much the Dorne part - I'm with most of you on that one.)

Edited April 25, 2016 by clanstarling

[stillshimpy]

I'm trying to think, other than Cersei's saying Myrcella was sweet, do we have any reason to believe she was right?  I mean, Cersei's not known to have the keenest insight into the nature of her children.  She barely got to do anything before the Dorne plot where they SORAS'd her into adolescence and young love.  The only thing I remember her from other than that was when she was listening to Joffrey taunt Sansa about serving her Rob's head on a platter.  Myrcella thought that was pretty cool and it was Tommen who realized that maybe enthusing about her brother's murder wasn't exactly being kind to Sansa. 

 

I know Book Myrcella is sweet and kind, but in the show the only sweet thing she did was tell Jaime she was proud that he is her father, which I admit was both sweet and kind.  Then, of course, she dropped dead because that's how warm pronouncements generally go down in the Seven Kingdoms.  Worse still if you tell your daughter you love her, as it turns out, Shireen. 

 

I assume that Jaime is going to find out about Lancel at long last and that he'll finally start off down his redemptive path away from her, for good. 

 

Then he'll say something sweet, kind and loving to someone who deserves it and it will be like the two  minute warning for him to get his shit together and pack for the afterlife. 

 

 

 

I totally believe that Sansa wouldn't remember the oath word for word.  She's running away from flesh eating dogs, presumably suffering from PTSD and FREEZING (although I wonder if Starks don't freeze the same way certain Targaryens don't burn) yeah she's gonna miss a couple of words.  Luckily she had Podrick the ever-so-loyal.

 

Not only that, unlike the audience, Sansa had no reason to  know that Brienne was nearby so can you even imagine the mindfuck on top of all of that?  "Oh god, I'd rather die than go back!!"  *baying girl-eating-dogs, savage-sword wielding men, still more mortal peril than is even usual in her life*  and Brienne appears as if shot up from the roots of the trees and starts kicking ass and taking zero prisoners.  

 

She may have forgotten the words because she was too busy thinking, "Am I dead?  I thought heaven would smell better.  Also, have fewer disemboweled bodies.  What the hell just happened, where did you even come from?  How did you know I was here?!?"  and that's on top of the leaping and the freezing and the fleeing and the fear of flaying.  

 

Girlfriend was doing well just to have the power of speech. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Shanna Marie]

I'm trying to think, other than Cersei's saying Myrcella was sweet, do we have any reason to believe she was right?

Was it her or Tommen who showed some compassion and concern about Bran's injury way back at the beginning? That's the only thing I can think of. She's mostly been offscreen since Tyrion sent her to Dorne early in season 2 (wasn't that when she left?).

[Alapaki]

No love for Khal Moro and the greatest things in life?  I laughed the first time I saw it, and I counted the second time.

Nice to know that even Khals get their balls busted by middle-management

[ChromaKelly]

Not to mention (IIRC) this is the first and only oath of fealty she has ever had to accept.

 

She may have been taught the words, or heard her father, mother or brother say them, but hearing and learning something and doing it are different things. Some people just go blank when things are real.

Ooh! Just thought of something. Sansa is from The North, where they don't have knights, so maybe she doesn't know it from in-person observance.

OK, and to an earlier point, I totally forgot about Sansa running into Brienne and Pod at the inn.

[NeelyOh]

I was wondering why John's allies are guarding his body at the risk of death? I understand that they might want to treat his body with respect and burn it themselves but it's not like any of them know what viewers/readers know in terms of supernatural possibilities, do they? So far, I think Davos has only mentioned the Red Woman in terms of helping them keep the assassins from John's corpse. His allies must know they have to burn him at some point so is it just that they want to do it themselves and not let his assassins dispose of him? If so, why not just tell them that -- that they'll burn John themselves.

[Statman]

I was wondering why John's allies are guarding his body at the risk of death? I understand that they might want to treat his body with respect and burn it themselves but it's not like any of them know what viewers/readers know in terms of supernatural possibilities, do they? So far, I think Davos has only mentioned the Red Woman in terms of helping them keep the assassins from John's corpse. His allies must know they have to burn him at some point so is it just that they want to do it themselves and not let his assassins dispose of him? If so, why not just tell them that -- that they'll burn John themselves.

 

I don't get the sense that they were guarding his body at all. 

 

From my perspective, they took his body inside not yet realizing the extent of the injuries Jon had suffered and only realized he was dead after they saw in light how many times he had been stabbed.  Then they realized that Thorne and his cronies and had done the deed and probably thought that they were next in line because they were Jon's friends (Edd probably believed this in particular).  Once the lightbulb went off, common sense dictates that staying in a locked room with only one entrance was probably conducive to them surviving as they had no idea if Thorne was going to kill them next.

[ParadoxLost]

I don't get the sense that they were guarding his body at all. 

 

From my perspective, they took his body inside not yet realizing the extent of the injuries Jon had suffered and only realized he was dead after they saw in light how many times he had been stabbed.  Then they realized that Thorne and his cronies and had done the deed and probably thought that they were next in line because they were Jon's friends (Edd probably believed this in particular).  Once the lightbulb went off, common sense dictates that staying in a locked room with only one entrance was probably conducive to them surviving as they had no idea if Thorne was going to kill them next.

 

Edd said flat out that everyone in the room with Jon was going to die and they might as well try to take Thorne with them.  And I agree, that the reason for this is not protecting his body.  They are just flat out loyal to Jon and unwilling to let Jon's assassination go unrevenged.  Edd left to get help, I presume the Wildings.

[NeelyOh]

I don't get the sense that they were guarding his body at all. 

 

From my perspective, they took his body inside not yet realizing the extent of the injuries Jon had suffered and only realized he was dead after they saw in light how many times he had been stabbed.  Then they realized that Thorne and his cronies and had done the deed and probably thought that they were next in line because they were Jon's friends (Edd probably believed this in particular).  Once the lightbulb went off, common sense dictates that staying in a locked room with only one entrance was probably conducive to them surviving as they had no idea if Thorne was going to kill them next.

Oh, of course you're right Thanks for reminding me of that. 

Edd said flat out that everyone in the room with Jon was going to die and they might as well try to take Thorne with them.  And I agree, that the reason for this is not protecting his body.  They are just flat out loyal to Jon and unwilling to let Jon's assassination go unrevenged.  Edd left to get help, I presume the Wildings.

Thanks for your reply!

[Honeybee]

Interesting

[The Mormegil]

and how Trystane is still free after Marcella dies. Possibly he's on "boat arrest" in the Kings Landing Harbor?

 

 

 

Jaime's note to Doran explains that he is sending Trystane back to Dorne for his own safety but he wants the heads of Elleria and the Sand Snakes for murdering Myrcella.

[ParadoxLost]

Have the timelines in various plots always moved at different paces?  Or is this just more noticeable because Jon is dead and the clock is ticking on rising as a White Walker.

[WatchrTina]

I'm sure we won't see it but I'd love to see a conversation in which Sansa asks Podrick what happened to Tyrion after the Purple Wedding.  Sansa didn't hate Tyrion and it would be natural for her to ask his former squire about his status.  I'd like to hear Podrick's response.  Or did he leave Kings Landing before the Purple Wedding?

[Eyes High]

I'm sure we won't see it but I'd love to see a conversation in which Sansa asks Podrick what happened to Tyrion after the Purple Wedding.  Sansa didn't hate Tyrion and it would be natural for her to ask his former squire about his status.  I'd like to hear Podrick's response.  Or did he leave Kings Landing before the Purple Wedding?

 

In the show and in the books, Pod left KL after the PW. In the show, however, Pod left KL before Tyrion had been found guilty. With the trial looming, TV Jaime arranged for Pod to go with Brienne as her squire to get him out of KL (as a favour to Tyrion). TV Pod hasn't talked about Tyrion after being sent away except to tell Brienne that Tyrion was always very good to him (in response to Brienne characterizing Pod being sent to squire for Tyrion as a punishment).

 

I don't think there is any dialogue in the show as to whether Pod found out what happened to Tyrion after Pod left KL. He didn't leave long after Sansa did, after all. If Sansa did ask him on the show about Tyrion, probably all Pod could tell her was that Tyrion was facing trial when Pod left.

 

In the books, Pod feels abandoned by Tyrion since Tyrion escaped and left him behind. Pod is determined to find Tyrion, thus his accompanying Brienne in her Sansa quest in the hopes that this will lead him to Tyrion. Pod does not join Brienne on her quest until after Tyrion's escape from KL.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[tennisgurl]

I swear, this Dorne stuff...its like the writers heard that people hated the Dorne story, and hated how many awful changes were made from the book, and how the female characters were all turned into stupid, sex obsessed murderers, and thought "Yeah, all this stuff was hated last season...but what if we DOUBLED DOWN on all the stuff people hated about that plot, and got rid of the only characters that people liked?!?!" 

 

What is even the hell. 

[Eyes High]

I swear, this Dorne stuff...its like the writers heard that people hated the Dorne story, and hated how many awful changes were made from the book, and how the female characters were all turned into stupid, sex obsessed murderers, and thought "Yeah, all this stuff was hated last season...but what if we DOUBLED DOWN on all the stuff people hated about that plot, and got rid of the only characters that people liked?!?!" 

 

What is even the hell. 

 

I believe D&D when they say they do whatever they want and don't change the writing in the face of fan displeasure.

 

TV Doran was an anemic nobody in Season 5 compared to his book characterization, leaving fans baffled as to his lack of Book Doran's intelligence, insight and planning, and now we know why. He was always meant to be a glorified redshirt whose death would pave the way for the psychopathic Sand Snakes to wreak havoc. The same goes for the Sand Snakes. The TV Sand Snakes were even more cartoonishly villainous and sadistic than their book selves in Season 5 (they're pretty much lady versions of Rast), and now we know why. They were always meant to be villains whom we're rooting to get taken down, probably because they're going against the real heroes of GOT in D&D's eyes, D&D's faves (at least as a collective family): the Lannisters.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[mac123x]

Jaime's note to Doran explains that he is sending Trystane back to Dorne for his own safety but he wants the heads of Elleria and the Sand Snakes for murdering Myrcella.

 

I'm hoping that a package arrives in KL with the following note attached:

 

To: Tommen, First of his name, etc.

From:  Anders Yronwood, Warden of the Stoneway

 

We have taken control of Sunspear, and summoned Arianne Dayne nee Martell (2nd cousin once removed from Doran Martell) from her home at Starfall in order to take up governance of Dorne.  Enclosed please find 4 severed heads.  We apologize for any inconvenience.

 

Sincerely,

Various Non-Insane Lords in Dorne

 

PS:  Please omit us from future plotlines as Show!Dorne is the worst.

 

 

I'm sure we won't see it but I'd love to see a conversation in which Sansa asks Podrick what happened to Tyrion after the Purple Wedding.  Sansa didn't hate Tyrion and it would be natural for her to ask his former squire about his status.  I'd like to hear Podrick's response.  Or did he leave Kings Landing before the Purple Wedding?

 

Pod left KL after the Purple Wedding but before Tyrion killed Tywin and fled.  Sansa had been living in the Vale during this timeframe, so she probably got the news of Tyrion's fate already.  She might ask Pod what he's been up to since Tyrion's arrest.

[benteen]

Did Tyrion give Pod the heads up to leave King's Landing in the book?  I can't quite remember but I think that he did.

 

Eyes High, I never even thought about that but yeah, D&D are probably trying to make the Sand Snakes look bad to make Cersei, who they don't consider to be evil or a villain but just a "concerned mom" to be good and sympathetic by comparison.

[nksarmi]

Did Tyrion give Pod the heads up to leave King's Landing in the book?  I can't quite remember but I think that he did.

 

Eyes High, I never even thought about that but yeah, D&D are probably trying to make the Sand Snakes look bad to make Cersei, who they don't consider to be evil or a villain but just a "concerned mom" to be good and sympathetic by comparison.

 

That was definitely the impression I got.  I also mentally dug my heels in and said "hell no, I will not fall for it.  I will just hate all of them."

[MarySNJ]

Only death can pay for life.  I'm hoping if Jon resurrects on the funeral pyre in a parallel to Dany's Mother of Dragons moment, that Ollie will be filling the role of Mirri Maaz Dhur.  I'm afraid it might be Ghost though.

 

I thought it was weird that a group of NW were guarding Jon's body trying to keep it from Thorne.  None of them know that Jon is going to be brought back to life, so it seemed odd.  I then fan-wanked that they weren't guarding his body, they were just gathered in a room where Jon's body happened to be.  By grabbing Jon's body (maybe they initially hoped he was only injured) they've self-identified as "loyal to Jon" so Alliser wants to kill them.  No one ever said it, but I'm guessing that these were the survivors of Hardhome.

I can't help wondering if Shireen is the death that will pay for Jon's life. 

[AnnaMayWong]

As Jon Snow lay dying with his blood pouring from his body, did it not form the silhouette of The (nightwatch) Wall❓

[OhOkayWhat]

I disagree about Show-Cercei being just a victim. The thing is that she is a very complex character in TV. And she does really abominable things in the show.

Edited April 26, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Knuckles]

A poster a while back asked about the snow under Jon's body appearing burned. I rewatched and Davos definitely was intrigued by something in the snow but I could not tell what. Jon's blood looked dark and frozen, which seems ordinary enough. Anyone know?

[DigitalCount]

I was wondering what Davos saw as well. That was an intriguing moment and after watching it again I still don't know what the deal is with that. I wonder if he was just amazed at how much blood Jon had lost and thinking that he was probably already dead but it was best to let the other watchmen learn this on their own?

[Eyes High]

There were a few really nitpicky things that bothered me about this episode:

 

1. "Mhysa" is not Valyrian. It's old Ghiscari, which we knew from 3x10 because Dany didn't know what "Mhysa" meant, despite Valyrian being her mother tongue. Mother in Valyrian is munya or munyus.

2. It's really dumb to have things written in the Roman alphabet that are supposedly in the Common Tongue on the sign where Jon Snow was to be executed ("Traitor") while using the Roman alphabet to represent words in other languages ("Kill the masters" in this one).

3. You'd think someone newly blinded would choose a less complicated hairstyle than having two braids off her face.

4. Isn't Tyrion the least bit worried about being recognized? Dressing up like a "common merchant" is not a cloaking device, and hundreds of people saw him with Dany in the fighting pits before all hell broke loose.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

Was it her or Tommen who showed some compassion and concern about Bran's injury way back at the beginning? That's the only thing I can think of. She's mostly been offscreen since Tyrion sent her to Dorne early in season 2 (wasn't that when she left?).

 

 

Both Tommen and Myrcella expressed concern and sympathy for Bran. Tommen cried his eyes out when Myrcella went to Dorne, probably because she was the only one who cared when Joffrey bullied him, and because two such siblings usually become very, very close.

 

I don't remember Myrcella being in King's Landing at all, when Joffrey promised to serve Sansa Robb's head on a platter. I think she was shipped off to Dorne earlier in the season. I know that she was around during Ned's execution, but she was younger than Sansa, and the implications of the whole thing probably went right over her head. Some people thought that Myrcella was unfeeling for asking Sansa about her wedding dress, but Myrcella had no idea that Sansa no longer wanted to marry Joffrey. Sansa hid that from the Lannisters. I think Myrcella was just trying to change the subject to one she knew Sansa enjoyed--pretty dresses. Myrcella left King's Landing in Season 2, and was not seen at all during season 3, and so I think you're mixing her up with someone else.

 

Interestingly, Cersei actually does know her children pretty well. Although she was in denial about Joffrey's awfulness, she knew he was a "monster." She knew he was cruel and bullied his siblings and his uncle, and that he more or less had it coming, when someone finally killed him. She knew he was the most like her, of all of her children. She didn't protect and smother him because she thought he was a little angel. She was overprotective because she knew his cruel nature would win him enemies. She didn't know the extent of his cruelty to Sansa, or anything about Joffrey's sexual behavior, because she didn't want to know. What mother would? But she did know he wasn't well liked.

   

She also knew that Tommen was sensitive, impressionable, kind, and would be easily seduced by Margaery. She knew he had none of his brother's ruthlessness in him. I think she considers him weak, and thinks that his kindness makes him a sitting duck for predators like "stags."

 

Cersei knew that Myrcella was nothing at all like her mother. Myrcella had not one mean bone in her body. She was so sweet that she had only kind words for everyone--she didn't even condemn Jaime for incest or for being such a neglectful father. She was glad that he, not the drunken, womanizing, wife punching Robert Baratheon, was her father. Now, bear in  mind Myrcella didn't have any clue that Jaime threw Bran out a window--if she had, she might have slightly different words for him. But she was very kind, so much so that it is absolutely monstrous that the Sand Snakes could find it in their hearts to kill her. Cersei deserves the loss of Myrcella, but Myrcella never deserved anything from the Martells but kindness. It's like Snow White being murdered on her wedding night, here.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

I was wondering what Davos saw as well. That was an intriguing moment and after watching it again I still don't know what the deal is with that. I wonder if he was just amazed at how much blood Jon had lost and thinking that he was probably already dead but it was best to let the other watchmen learn this on their own?

 

 

That would depress him, not amaze him. He saw something unusual.

[Chris24601]

Have the timelines in various plots always moved at different paces?  Or is this just more noticeable because Jon is dead and the clock is ticking on rising as a White Walker.

Yes, they've always moved at different paces.

 

A prime example for this would be that the Sansa/Theon/Brienne/Pod scenes from this week would have taken place weeks before the final scenes of season five where Melisandre arrived and then Jon was murdered. Heck, they probably happened before Davos even got to Castle Black himself because its hundreds of miles (weeks of travel) from Winterfell to Castle Black.

 

Based on how Stannis, without significant stores or provisions, was able to reach Winterfell on foot from his camp and Ramsey was able to reach that camp with his "twenty good men" He had to be relatively close to Winterfell already when it all fell to crap and Melisandre abandoned Stannis to his fate. That means the Battle at Winterfell during which Sansa and Theon escaped occurred within days of Melisandre leaving to return to The Wall.

 

So while we may see some scenes of them on the road to Castle Black while the very tight events at the Wall resolve (it's been less than 24 hours since Jon was murdered at The Wall and it will probably be resolved the following night with Jon's funeral/resurrection happening the following day), those events actually happened weeks ago relative to the Castle Black scenes and Sansa and Brienne are probably only a couple of days behind Melisandre in terms of traveling to reach Castle Black.

[ElizaD]

So while we may see some scenes of them on the road to Castle Black while the very tight events at the Wall resolve (it's been less than 24 hours since Jon was murdered at The Wall and it will probably be resolved the following night with Jon's funeral/resurrection happening the following day), those events actually happened weeks ago relative to the Castle Black scenes and Sansa and Brienne are probably only a couple of days behind Melisandre in terms of traveling to reach Castle Black.

 

I hadn't really thought about it like this. Of course "screen time" (the pacing that's established by what episodes/seasons invite viewers to assume about distances) has priority over "logical time" (how long something should take and where characters should be), but now I really hope that in two episodes, three at most, Sansa & friends will end up arriving at the Wall: that way their timeline would kinda be logical since they'd arrive shortly after Melisandre, even though in this episode we see them still outside Winterfell and Mel is already caught up in the Jon-related events that will probably be settled over the course of only a few days.

[AuntieMame]

In addition to the previously mentioned "grew up in Fleabottom and was a good smuggler so is probably pretty good at reading people and sniffing out BS there's also one critically important factor to consider...

i.e. Just how many of those 'real players' do you think are even remotely equipped to survive the coming Ice Zombie Apocalypse on one side and Fire and Blood of Dothraki hordes backed by living WMD's that already have wingspans of over a hundred feet (and will probably double again for next season like they have every one before) on the other side?

That's the whole irony of it all. These power hungery jackasses have wasted so many lives and resources on their stupid power games that they are now completely unprepared for the coming existential threat that can't be outschemed, bribed or blackmailed.

No, the need for inspiring leaders to rally the people to fight together (instead of against each other as all the 'real players' keep doing) is going to critical for Westeros, not just during the battles against the armies of the dead from the North and the Fire and Blood conqueror from the East, but to rebuild from the wreckage left in its wake.

The world (and Sansa) needs Davos a heck of a lot more than it needs Littlefinger.

This has always been one of the most poignant themes of GoT for me. It so closely echoes our own world, how we ignore environmental degradation to gear up for another religious war, driven through the cycles of history by our shortsighted need to survive or thrive in the near term. If I recall correctly, there was a minor character in the books who railed against st the War of the Five Kings and its waste when Winter is Coming.

[Oscirus]

I'm trying to think, other than Cersei's saying Myrcella was sweet, do we have any reason to believe she was right?

 

Well, she did tell her uncle that she was glad that he wasn't dead.

 

I'm sure we won't see it but I'd love to see a conversation in which Sansa asks Podrick what happened to Tyrion after the Purple Wedding.  Sansa didn't hate Tyrion and it would be natural for her to ask his former squire about his status.  I'd like to hear Podrick's response.  Or did he leave Kings Landing before the Purple Wedding?

 

Despite my support of the Sansa/ Tyrion political pairing, I don't think I'd want to see such a thing happen. Mostly because it would come off as shipper bait and it feels inessential to the story in general.  Besides I'd be shocked if she didn't know what Pod does, he killed the King's hand and escaped to part's unknown.

Eyes High, I never even thought about that but yeah, D&D are probably trying to make the Sand Snakes look bad to make Cersei, who they don't consider to be evil or a villain but just a "concerned mom" to be good and sympathetic by comparison.

 

 

I think that they're actually trying to make the Sand snakes look like bad asses. Hopefully they're also trying to insert some commentary on how revenge can warp somebody and cause them to do things they normally wouldn't.  Sadly, I just think they're just inserting an amazon storyline where it's not needed. Especially when the Tyrells have a similar storyline and pull it off so much better.

[mrspidey]

I can't help wondering if Shireen is the death that will pay for Jon's life. 

In a way it does already. As a result of the sacrifice, the snow melted and Stannis' campaign ended, freeing up Mel to return to the Wall just in time to do whatever she will do with Jon's corpse.

[darkestboy]

Didn't see the reveal with Melisandre coming so that's a good thing.
Surprised they didn't revive Jon in this episode but hopefully it won't be dragged out for the rest of the season. Also hoping Ghost gets to kill a few of the backstabbers too. Davos was great in this one.
Sansa and Theon, glad Brienne and Pod came to their rescue. Roose is going to have a lot more problems on his hands if he doesn't find a way to control Ramsay though.
Jamie and Cersei's scenes were interesting but the latter will get vengeance.
I hated Ellaria and the Sand Snakes last season and even more so this season too. Terrible characters.
Dany saved herself some time but being stuck with the widows of the Khals clearly wasn't something she was anticipating though. Khal Moro seems okay, character wise. Good scenes with Daario/Jorah and Tyrion/Varys in this one too.
I really want Arya in her current state to take the Waif down a few notches.
How much longer is Margaery going to rot in that cell? Loras is as good as dead though. Overall a great premiere though, 8/10

[SeanC]

On 4/26/2016 at 10:37 PM, Eyes High said:

I'm sure we won't see it but I'd love to see a conversation in which Sansa asks Podrick what happened to Tyrion after the Purple Wedding.  Sansa didn't hate Tyrion and it would be natural for her to ask his former squire about his status.  I'd like to hear Podrick's response.  Or did he leave Kings Landing before the Purple Wedding?

In the show and in the books, Pod left KL after the PW. In the show, however, Pod left KL before Tyrion had been found guilty. With the trial looming, TV Jaime arranged for Pod to go with Brienne as her squire to get him out of KL (as a favour to Tyrion). TV Pod hasn't talked about Tyrion after being sent away except to tell Brienne that Tyrion was always very good to him (in response to Brienne characterizing Pod being sent to squire for Tyrion as a punishment).

I don't think there is any dialogue in the show as to whether Pod found out what happened to Tyrion after Pod left KL. He didn't leave long after Sansa did, after all. If Sansa did ask him on the show about Tyrion, probably all Pod could tell her was that Tyrion was facing trial when Pod left.

In the books, Pod feels abandoned by Tyrion since Tyrion escaped and left him behind. Pod is determined to find Tyrion, thus his accompanying Brienne in her Sansa quest in the hopes that this will lead him to Tyrion. Pod does not join Brienne on her quest until after Tyrion's escape from KL.

If anything, Sansa would be much more likely to know about Tyrion's status (prior to Essos, obviously) than Podrick would.  She was chilling at Runestone in 5x01, seemingly for some time; while we didn't see it, there's no reason to think she hadn't heard of the latest events in the Seven Kingdoms, and Tyrion's escape would surely be a hot news item.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

If anything, Sansa would be much more likely to know about Tyrion's status (prior to Essos, obviously) than Podrick would.  She was chilling at Runestone in 5x01, seemingly for some time; while we didn't see it, there's no reason to think she hadn't heard of the latest events in the Seven Kingdoms, and Tyrion's escape would surely be a hot news item.

Also, in the books Sansa while in the Vale in AFFC went from believing that Tyrion had been executed in an earlier chapter to knowing that Tyrion was still alive as of her last AFFC chapter, so clearly she's up to date on what happened as well. 

[IntrovertGal]

I agree with most of you here re the Dorne storyline, it is absolutely astounding how much D&D managed to screw that up. And it got even worse in the season 6 premiere! I did not think that was possible after season 5. Someone needs to kill off the Sand Snakes pronto, they are beyond cartoonish at this point. Some of the dialogue also really bugged me in 6.01, not just in the Dorne storyline (although that was the worst offender) but, as some of you have mentioned, some of Tyrion's lines felt off as well. It's painfully obvious that D&D can no longer rely on GRRM's great dialogue and what they come up with pales in comparison. I was also really disappointed that we still have no answers with respect to Jon Snow's fate. Although I guess it is a good sign that they did not burn his body and maybe the last scene of the episode means that Melisandre will sacrifice herself for Jon. I'd prefer it though if Jon Snow resurrected himself thereby revealing his Targaryen heritage. Ghost's howls of grief at the beginning of the episode were really upsetting. Still, I liked the storyline at the Wall (even if seeing Jon Snow lie dead on the table was very upsetting) and I cannot wait for Tormund and the other Wildlings to show up.

My favourite scenes revolved around Sansa and Theon and their escape and then Brienne and Pod swooping in and rescuing them from the Bolton men. Sansa has been through so much since season 1 so it was nice to see her finally out of harm's way (for the time being at least) and having Brienne protect her. When Brienne and Pod first showed up, I actually cheered and I was very moved by Brienne and Sansa's oath. Also, yay for Theon finally seeming to come back to his old self and even killing a Bolton lackey and saving Pod's life. I used to really hate Theon but after everything he has suffered and been put through, he really deserves something good coming his way. Sansa obviously changed her mind about Theon as well. I loved the little look she gave him before accepting Brienne, she really trusted his judgment in that moment.

I continue to be let down by what the writers are doing to Jaime's character. At this point, he should be far far away from Cersei and not making vows about staying together and taking their revenge. I finally want Jaime to be out of this toxic relationship and continue his path to redemption, which D&D apparently have forgotten.

Let's hope that episode 6.02 will be less about showing the viewers where every character left off at the end of last season and more about actually moving some storylines forward. But then again GoT season premieres are never the most exciting episodes so I try to remain hopeful.

[qtpye]

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I continue to be let down by what the writers are doing to Jaime's character. At this point, he should be far far away from Cersei and not making vows about staying together and taking their revenge. I finally want Jaime to be out of this toxic relationship and continue his path to redemption, which D&D apparently have forgotten.

The fact that he even said that nothing matters except them shows his narcissism is as bad as hers.  What about the kingdom, that is in shambles, mostly because of Cersei decision to arm religious fanatics?  What about the people of King's Landing, who have had nothing but constant suffering.  Or here is a good one...their one surviving child, Tommen...who happens to be the King?

 

I know he was telling Cersei, not to be a slave to prophecy, because she is making it self fulfilling, but he should also make her own up to her bad decisions and selfishness.

I hated that Myrcella died the way she did, but I barely knew the character (at least from the show).  I remember how horribly Cersei treated Sansa and allowed Joffrey to torture her with glee.  Cersei did not want Myrcella to go to Dorne (even though it was the right decision at the time to keep her safe), because it never occurred to her that anyone would treat her daughter with kindness, because she would never treat anyone else's daughter (or child) that well, herself.

[Tikichick]

I've had a couple more thoughts after thinking a few days on the episode. 

Anyone think there's any likelihood that Melisandre is suddenly cold because she touched Jon's cheek?  I'm wondering if any of Sam's studies in Oldtown will prove useful to his best friend's potential future?

[Sunnydayman]

On April 25, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Maximum Taco said:

The only reason I wasn't shocked was because I'd read speculation about Mel really being ancient.  Nothing in the books had led me to think it myself.  I do think that her scene was marvelously well done, though.

The only reason I thought it in the books was because she uses glamours in the books. In particular she uses a glamour to make the Lord of Bones look like Mance Rayder and vice versa (and Mance is even given a ruby to maintain his glamour when he's away from Meli.)

They don't do that in the show though, so I wasn't sure if she had this power.

Maybe the people that have been sacrificed replenish Mel's necklace.  She can't be that long-lived without a catch.  That necklace has to contain some kind of life essence.   She moved like an old person after removing it.

[Avaleigh]

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I assume that Jaime is going to find out about Lancel at long last and that he'll finally start off down his redemptive path away from her, for good. 

I'm hoping that this is where they're going with it although I'd like for him to be even more irritated with things like Cersei's dumbass decision to have the Faith rearmed in the first place and not having the common sense and decency to not treat Tommen's wife and brother in law like shit.  

If her affair with Lancel is going to be the thing to get Jaime to finally see Cersei for what she is, it makes me sort of wish that they'd introduced the character of Pia for one episode. Maybe they could have had Jaime be helpful to Pia in some small way so she comes back to "reward" him. To see him be tempted by another woman only to say to Pia that he already has a woman waiting for him--I always thought that said a lot about the character of Jaime. He hasn't had sex in around a year or so and is emotionally vulnerable; he could have what would be the equivalent of an anonymous sexual encounter that is unlikely to result in negative consequences, but he's willing to wait for the woman he loves. It perfectly demonstrates the difference in the level of loyalty between the twins and how Cersei has never shown the same sort of sacrifice and devotion. I know Jaime didn't say anything to Pia and only thought to himself that Cersei would be waiting for him but I still feel like this would have been a decent way to get how huge of a betrayal it would feel like to him. 

[qtpye]

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It perfectly demonstrates the difference in the level of loyalty between the twins and how Cersei has never shown the same sort of sacrifice and devotion. I know Jaime didn't say anything to Pia and only thought to himself that Cersei would be waiting for him but I still feel like this would have been a decent way to get how huge of a betrayal it would feel like to him. 

Jamie loves Cersei, despite her being a horrible person and would sacrifice everything her.

Cersei loves Jamie as an extension of her own narcissism.  Its like Jamie loves and adores Cersei and Cersei loves and adores that Jamie loves and adores Cersei.

[mac123x]

The show runners have a habit of compressing and flattening characters / story lines in order to fit TV, not have to have a cast of thousands, etc.  Sometimes it works (Dany's multiple political troubles with neighbors and Meereen's citizens became a simple armed insurrection), sometimes it doesn't (I'm looking at you, Loras).  I think that's what they're doing with Dorne.

In the books, we've got (f)Aegon, Jon Connington, and the Golden Company invading the Stormlands.  Jon Con wants to get Dorne on his side.  Basically, its another military threat for the Lannisters to have to deal with.  Since the show excised (f)Aegon entirely, they might have compressed the threat into "Dorne attacks".  And instead of "complex political and military maneuvering in an attempt to win allies and seat a Targaryen (who might be an imposter) on the Iron Throne", they flattened it into "Revenge!!!!"

Whether this works or not is up to the viewer to determine.  (Hint:  It won't)

Edited April 27, 2016 by mac123x
trying to correct italics

[WearyTraveler]

I'm so worried for Ghost it's not even funny! I want to see Jon's resurrection, not so much for seeing Jon coming back to life, but just to have the relief that Ghost continues to live too!

[Tikichick]

15 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I'm so worried for Ghost it's not even funny! I want to see Jon's resurrection, not so much for seeing Jon coming back to life, but just to have the relief that Ghost continues to live too!

I know what you mean.  I've been invested in those pups since the first few pages of book one too many years ago.  I've been waiting patiently for my Nymeria to find the right moment to present herself on the screen.  I want to see her reunited with Arya, and with Ghost too. 

[qtpye]

I just got this from a yahoo article on what is wrong with Dorne.

.

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They're the TV version of Kate Beaton's Strong Female Characters, the kind of violent, scantily clad women that emerge when creators want to pay lip service to feminism, but don't have the time or inclination to create actual three-dimensional female characters. 

The Sand Snakes are a joke.  We first meet them and one of course does a strip tease and talks about how beautiful her body is.  They have cast three women who can barely hold up their weapons, yet are the most lethal killing force in Dorne?  I do not even want to get into the bad pussy line

They seem only to exist to counter the sexism and misogyny on the show, but are nothing but cartoon versions of true female warriors.

Compare to Michonne on Walking Dead.  Michonne is a bad ass female warrior.  However, she is attractive and feminine and does not have to resort to taking off her clothes for male attention.

I just can hardly believe that in 2016 these writer's are so clueless about how to portray women.  I think the awesome female characters we do have on the show are owed more to GRRM, then to the show runners.