S06.E01: The Red Woman

[cambridgeguy]

So is killing your half cousin classified as kinslaying?  Regardless, I'm pretty sure that "kill my brother and nephew" was not a part of Oberyn's last will and testament.  So now the recognized House Martell is gone, House Baratheon is effectively gone (Tommen is toast at some point), House Lannister has no heirs, House Arryn is reduced to a lunatic child and House Tyrell has its kids rotting in prison.  Who knew the Starks would be in the best shape compared to their fellow Great Houses.

[Dev F]

1) The show gave us the clues about the coup in season 5 episode 2( this is not something the showrunners decide to add just now) :

 

Ellaria:The whole country would have you go to war.

Doran:Then we are lucky the whole country does not decide.

Ellaria:The Sand Snakes are with me. We have the love of their people.....

 

But that's a scene that takes place long before Ellaria and the Sand Snakes even attempt to kidnap Myrcella -- an attempt that completely fails and ends with them being taken into custody by Doran's guards. If they didn't even have the support for a surgical strike at that point, I hardly think it constitutes evidence that they had the support to decapitate the entire regime.

 

3) Remember that it was a Dornish ship and that Myrcella seems to be in a coffin when she arrives to Kings Landing, therefore they made a stop, probably in a big Port city. That gives the Sand Snakes plenty of time to sneak in the ship or something like that.

 

If that were the case, surely they would've sent a raven to Doran earlier. The fact that he didn't get a message until the ship got to King's Landing suggests that they didn't stop till they got there.

 

Also, Myrcella wasn't in a coffin when they landed. She was lying under a shroud.

[stillshimpy]

After reading all the books since last season, I emerged on the other side of it with a new plot favorite:  Dorne! 

 

I must take a great liking to the Boltons in order to have them swiftly dispatched too, it would seem.  Oh Areo GoPro, at least I might still get your personality-free POV in the future, but dude, why would you keep your back turned to the "Hey, we were recently pardoned for treasonous activities!" team?   

 

Although judging by how two managed to teleport onto a ship at sea, clearly the Sand Snakes have mad stealth skillz.  

 

Good to see that since Brienne gave up her life of perpetual candle-watching, she remembered how to swiftly materialize when needed.   Although my husband, who hasn't read the books, did keep urging her to kill Theon because "It's only a matter of time before he betrays the lot of you!  It's his animating force in life!"  Personally I thought it was fun to see him actually come back to life there for a moment.  

 

 

 

She was fantastic, but her monologue about how a dead body decomposes took me out of the scene because, not to be too gross, Myrcella was probably pretty ripe already.  Also, how did WhipSnake and SpearSnake get onto the boat with Trystane?  When last seen, they were on the dock with Ellaria watching that boat sail off.

 

Apparently the writers' room must have been having a contest on who could construct the biggest "oh for fuck's sake" Corpse Talking to, because Ramsay droning on about his love for Myranda was unintentionally hilarious.  Or perhaps it was hilariously funny when he ended his "Oh my love" shit with "Yeah, whatevs, feed her to the pack, plant her in a garden, make a doorstop out of her.  It's all the same to me" parting shot. 

 

Oh goody.  More Dothraki and their alarming idea of pillow-talk. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by stillshimpy

[benteen]

The Martell bloodline is still around, just not the Martell name.  Though I expect the Sand Snakes won't live by the end of this show and hopefully not by the end of this season.

[Lamima]

All of those are older than Chaucer. They are good old Anglo Saxon words. Ancient. They were spelled a bit differently sometimes, for example "fuck" was often spelled "fokke," and meant to strike, hit, or knock, as well as to copulate, but they have been a part of the English language for as long as it has existed.

There were other instances that just didn't jive...like when the sand snakes killed Trystane...I forget what they said but it was out of place for that scene. It's the thing I hate about The Vikings show too...too many modern lines. Last episode in that show one of the sons said 'screw you' and it just doesn't jive. I felt Jamie could have gotten that same speech out and it would have been just as powerful if he didn't say 'eff this' 'eff that' 'eff them all'. Seemed like that was playing up for the fans and a bit cheesy.

[nksarmi]

Ok seriously though, what second cousin twice-removed is going to rule Dorne now because it can't seriously be one of these aweful Sand Snakes the show has given us, can it?

 

But whatever - I might be in total denial but since I basically no longer see the show as any indicator of where the books are going - I can enjoy the ride better (even while mourning what I know Dorne and Alexander S could have been).

[Tikichick]

This episode left me wondering two things most of all.  Wouldn't Sansa be very familiar with Pod already from her time married to Tyrion?  Are we ever going to get a look at Jon's ability to warg on the show?  Just occurred to me, if Arya stumbles into an ability to warg it could give a whole new meaning to the Many Faced God.  

[stillshimpy]

I might be in total denial but since I basically no longer see the show as any indicator of where the books are going

 

Yes, it's at least a little bit amusing that I stopped being Unsullied just in time for everyone else to become Unsullied in terms of plot progression.  

 

I also kept expecting Jorah to high-five Dario with his scaly paw.  Particularly after he took a moment to Scale-Check.  Poor Jorah.  

 

Although, he did grab Dany by the hand last season, so I guess they are going with "Dany, immune, impenetrable, difficult to scorch" ....either that or they don't think anyone noticed because it wasn't in the previews.  

 

Ok seriously though, what second cousin twice-removed is going to rule Dorne now because it can't seriously be one of these aweful Sand Snakes the show has given us, can it?

 

Was I imagining it, or did they recast at least one of the Snakes?   

[benteen]

There were other instances that just didn't jive...like when the sand snakes killed Trystane...I forget what they said but it was out of place for that scene. It's the thing I hate about The Vikings show too...too many modern lines. Last episode in that show one of the sons said 'screw you' and it just doesn't jive. I felt Jamie could have gotten that same speech out and it would have been just as powerful if he didn't say 'eff this' 'eff that' 'eff them all'. Seemed like that was playing up for the fans and a bit cheesy.

 

That "screw you" line in Vikings that you were talking about did throw me off for a moment too when I watched the episode.  It was awkward but I love Vikings and just let it go.

 

The language on Thrones has never bothered me it's not based on Earth (though it is heavily influenced by old European history) and because the colorful language in the books (and adapted to the show) has always been pretty modern.

[nodorothyparker]

There was a lot to like in this episode but the stuff that didn't work really really didn't.

 

This Dorne stuff felt like somebody lost a bet in the writers room.  "Oh, everyone hated Dorne last season and didn't think it or any of its characters made much sense?  Well, watch this.  No really, I bet we can still make it more nonsensical than that."  Or hell, maybe it does make sense in some way.  At the rate they're wiping out great houses and leaving only bastards with nebulous ties to claim them, maybe that's intentionally the end game where despite how it looked in earlier seasons only the Starks will even have any living trueborn heirs left.  Good thing the show hasn't spent any significant amount of time on politics or how succession is supposed to work to muddy those waters.

 

This is also the episode that removed any last bit of doubt how thoroughly tired of Dany and all her assorted misfits and followers I am.  I've been feeling it since last season when she arbitrarily started flambeing Mereenese nobles alive to prove that she could and then went Ramsay Bolton: East Coast edition of You Will Marry Me for Political Reasons Even Though We Invaded Your Home and Murdered Your Family.  The combination of Monte Python level bad dialogue with the exact same people she started out with five full seasons ago and the visual of the burning fleet with "welp, I guess this means we're still not going to Westeros anytime soon ever"  has me at the end of my rope even though I already know in the end none of this will matter either.  While I've always strongly suspected that the Dosh Khaleen are going to be some kind of horrible too like being shut up inside a tomb when they're not needed, we know that the dragons will likely show up eventually to rescue her yet again and she'll probably also end up with a full khalasar for her trouble.

 

I'm going to need Jaime to pick a character, any character, to be and hopefully stop being Cersei's mindless lapdog, preferably sooner than later.  My love for the book character is only going to get me so much further.

[Boilergal]

When the hounds tracked Sansa I was full of dread, thought for sure she was going back to Ramsey and going to PAY big.  So relieved when Brienne and Pod showed up.  Worried that Pod was going to be killed, but soooo glad he made it.  Also loved that Pod fed Sansa the lines she needed, she was was scared to death, freezing, and her adrenaline had to be rushing through her, I could see forgetting something like that.  Plus it's not something she has ever had to do, so needing a little assistance seemed plausible to me.

 

I was really really hoping that when Thorne was in giving his big speech that Jon Snow would walk in and scare the ever living crap out of him.  In my head there was a gap between Melisandre touching Jon's cheek and the Thorne scene where she prayed over him like Thoros did with Beric and brought him back to life.   

[mac123x]

Only death can pay for life.  I'm hoping if Jon resurrects on the funeral pyre in a parallel to Dany's Mother of Dragons moment, that Ollie will be filling the role of Mirri Maaz Dhur.  I'm afraid it might be Ghost though.

 

I thought it was weird that a group of NW were guarding Jon's body trying to keep it from Thorne.  None of them know that Jon is going to be brought back to life, so it seemed odd.  I then fan-wanked that they weren't guarding his body, they were just gathered in a room where Jon's body happened to be.  By grabbing Jon's body (maybe they initially hoped he was only injured) they've self-identified as "loyal to Jon" so Alliser wants to kill them.  No one ever said it, but I'm guessing that these were the survivors of Hardhome.

[Haleth]

It kills me that they have made such a mess of the whole Dorne plot.  Maybe by killing off Doran we won't have to revisit that shitty place again.  The whole bunch of cartoonish characters can die in a volcano eruption or fall into the sea or get BBQed by a dragon for all I care.  I love Dorne/Doran in the books, I love how he's playing a long game, not weak and ineffectual, but patient and calculated.  Apparently that is too subtle for the show.  Such a waste.

 

I love Davos and his dedication to truth and right, but what is the point of having the Wildlings come back and slaughter the NW?  Jon is already dead (as far as he knows) so why the stand off?  Of course the NW and everyone else will be in for a shock when Jon walks out of that room/get up off his pyre.  I did like the speech Thorne gave, showing that killing Jon wasn't out of spite or a personal hatred, but like Bowen Marsh he did feel he was doing the honorable thing for the NW.  He's not the mustache twirling villain of the book.  (Kudos to the actor.) 

Did that [Jon's burned hand] happen before the dragons were born? Because if it did, that could be a plausible explanation.

That's what I was thinking.  Those magical Targ mitochondria didn't kick in until the dragons were hatched.  (Which also explains why Viserys died, pre-dragon.)

Also, Myrcella wasn't in a coffin when they landed. She was lying under a shroud.

 

A shroud of gold.

Apparently the writers' room must have been having a contest on who could construct the biggest "oh for fuck's sake" Corpse Talking to, because Ramsay droning on about his love for Myranda was unintentionally hilarious.  Or perhaps it was hilariously funny when he ended his "Oh my love" shit with "Yeah, whatevs, feed her to the pack, plant her in a garden, make a doorstop out of her.  It's all the same to me" parting shot.

 

Shimpy, this might be the only time dogs receive the benefit of the action, so there's that.

Alfie Allen might be the best actor on the show.

I agree.  Never would have thought I'd be rooting for Theon to survive.

[WatchrTina]

 

In the circumstances I give Sansa a pass at not remembering the oath, she's traumatised to hell, freezing to death and what does she have to offer a knight anyway. I would have liked a moment of recognition for her first husband's squire though.

Oh gosh, you are right.  Of course Sansa knows Podrick.  The marriage to Tyrion had slipped my mind. I had been daydreaming of Sansa rallying the North and lots of Northern lords wanting to marry her for her "claim" and I envisioned her telling them she was not free to marry until someone brought her the head of Ramsey Bolton on a plate (because even though it was done under duress she said the words in front of tree and it was consumated and the old gods know the truth of it.)  Okay, so I STILL would like that scene (and Ramsey's head on a plate) but then Tyrion should show up and claim his place at her side.  True, the marriage was never consummated and didn't take place in front of a tree so the men of the North would probably give Sansa a annulment of sorts by just pretending the Kings Landing wedding never happened . . . hmmmmmm.

 

I must say as a reader I am enjoying having to speculate what is going to happen.

 

 

Only death can pay for life.

Oooooh, maybe the Red Woman (for whom this episode is named) laid herself down in that bed to die, thereby giving up her life force (all of what is left) to Jon and THAT's how he is going to resurrect.

Edited April 25, 2016 by WatchrTina

[nksarmi]

Yes, it's at least a little bit amusing that I stopped being Unsullied just in time for everyone else to become Unsullied in terms of plot progression.  

 

I also kept expecting Jorah to high-five Dario with his scaly paw.  Particularly after he took a moment to Scale-Check.  Poor Jorah.  

 

Although, he did grab Dany by the hand last season, so I guess they are going with "Dany, immune, impenetrable, difficult to scorch" ....either that or they don't think anyone noticed because it wasn't in the previews.  

 

 

 

 

Was I imagining it, or did they recast at least one of the Snakes?   

 

Well they sure as heck paused on his hand long enough in that episode where Dany took it to make you wonder. Heck, if we are looking for clues from show to book - maybe Jon C is going to touch Aegon at some point and prove he's a Targ because of the same invulnerability Dany seems to enjoy on the show?  I have to believe that they gave Jorah the greyscale so he can take on whatever role Jon C is going to play in the books - which means I also believe that they are merging Aegon's story in with Dany's.

 

I was mad enough about Quentyn being introduced in book five just to die - I refuse - refuse I say! - to believe GRRM gave me TWO characters (Quentyn and Aegon) in book five that just aren't going to matter.  I have to believe that Quentyn was being used to specifically move House Martel from supporting Dany to supporting Aegon's fight on Westerous now.  So since the show seems to be determined to wrap anything from Aegon's story into Dany (including moving Jon C over to Jorah) - I suppose they decided to use Dorne to bring war again to Westerous - and probably King's Landing.

 

The only thing I really dislike about this is that they made the Sand Snakes so vile and horrible that it looks like they want you to take Cersei's side and no showrunners - I don't care what you say - I refuse.  I don't know who this pair is that you are calling Cersei and Jamie but they are not from the books and I'm getting bored with them.

[athena22]

On the Sansa speech with help from Pod...I am hoping they made it so bad--her totally forgetting her courtesies--to set up a contrast for when she takes the Stark reins later this season. Like, there will be a callback in episode 9 where she gives some speech to rally the new northmen army, and we'll be thinking "remember in episode 1, when she could barely remember how to swear in a knight? Wow!" That's my dream, anyhow. And then Nymeria will show up and tear Ramsay's throat out and Sansa's horse will step over his corpse and her army will go save the north.

At the wall...I thought it was telling that not only was Melisandra old, but she went to bed very close to the fire, under a bunch of furs. They have always made a big deal about how the cold doesn't bother her--she's been walking around Castle Black in a dressing gown while everyone else is totally bundled up. What I don't know whether its "when I take the glamor off I can feel cold" or "my magic has faded and now I am cold".

[Maximum Taco]

Does anyone think Davos and The Jon's Watch (I'm calling them that from now on) are selling Ser Alliser short by believing he wants to kill all of them?

 

I mean I get that he killed Jon, but Alliser has been, for the most part, largely honorable. I could easily buy him pardoning the men who really didn't do anything wrong yet. I mean all they did was take Jon's body in from the cold and barricade themselves in and missed a meeting. They haven't fought or killed anybody or disobeyed any important orders. And what does Alliser care if Davos (and Meli) leave Castle Black? Nobody seems to care about the business of the Night's Watch, it's not like they could raise an army to fight for the honor of a dead Jon Snow even if they desperately wanted to.

 

I just don't buy that he wants to kill all of them and is completely committed to doing that even if they surrender. It seems like too big of a heel turn.

 

Now if The Jon's Watch wants to fight for Jon's honor because they feel that's what they want/need to do? Fine, but dont play it off like Alliser wants you dead, he needs every sword he can get, I don't think he'd waste 3-4 on a petty grudge against a dead man.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

I love Davos and his dedication to truth and right, but what is the point of having the Wildlings come back and slaughter the NW?

Justice, one assumes.

Edited April 25, 2016 by SeanC

[cred0021]

I see blue eyes in Jon's future when he comes back.  How else would the White Walkers be defeated or controlled unless there is someone on their level to fight them?

 

Blue eyes and a flaming sword would be pretty bad ass...

[mac123x]

Regarding burning Dany's fleet -- that was to deal with a self-inflicted plot hole from season 4.  After Dany and the Unsullied took Meereen, Daario casually mentioned that they'd captured the Meereenese fleet.  People asked "she's got a fleet and an army, why the hell isn't she sailing to Westeros already?"  They had to contrive some silly rationales for her staying, like "How can I rule 7 kingdoms if I can't rule a city?"  (Nevermind that she can't rule the city because of fundamental cultural differences.)

 

Now, if she gets back to Meereen, she can't sail because she has no fleet. 

It's a justification for the Iron Fleet to come to her

[Lamima]

 

Oooooh, maybe the Red Woman (for whom this episode is named) laid herself down in that bed to die, thereby giving up her life force (all of what is left) to Jon and THAT's how he is going to resurrect.

I think you're on to something. Maybe they place her red necklace thing on his neck and then burn him and he rises from the fire.

But there is a scene between the Red Woman and Davos in the season preview clips where she says it was all lies...we didn't see that yet. Maybe it happened and Davos will flash back to that.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Lamima

[Maximum Taco]

Stray thought: How bad of a feeling do we have about Ser Loras?

 

For some reason I get the feeling that he's going to hang himself in his cell or something. It just feels like they're setting Margaery up for a tragedy by her continually asking about him and being rebuffed by Unella and the High Sparrow.

 

They've already destroyed his character absolutely in the show, I wouldn't put it past the writers to just have him give up and go the suicide-route instead of requesting a trial by combat he could probably win with one hand tied behind his back.

[benteen]

Justice, one assumes.

 

Justice.  And maybe to give the Wildlings the duty of guarding the Wall.  The Night's Watch is down to less than fifty men on the show.  Their time is done.  Give them the Wall to protect the North and let Tormund and Edd run things.

[MarySNJ]

After reading all the books since last season, I emerged on the other side of it with a new plot favorite:  Dorne! 

 

I must take a great liking to the Boltons in order to have them swiftly dispatched too, it would seem.  Oh Areo GoPro, at least I might still get your personality-free POV in the future, but dude, why would you keep your back turned to the "Hey, we were recently pardoned for treasonous activities!" team?   

 

Although judging by how two managed to teleport onto a ship at sea, clearly the Sand Snakes have mad stealth skillz.  

 

Good to see that since Brienne gave up her life of perpetual candle-watching, she remembered how to swiftly materialize when needed.   Although my husband, who hasn't read the books, did keep urging her to kill Theon because "It's only a matter of time before he betrays the lot of you!  It's his animating force in life!"  Personally I thought it was fun to see him actually come back to life there for a moment.  

 

 

 

 

Apparently the writers' room must have been having a contest on who could construct the biggest "oh for fuck's sake" Corpse Talking to, because Ramsay droning on about his love for Myranda was unintentionally hilarious.  Or perhaps it was hilariously funny when he ended his "Oh my love" shit with "Yeah, whatevs, feed her to the pack, plant her in a garden, make a doorstop out of her.  It's all the same to me" parting shot. 

 

Oh goody.  More Dothraki and their alarming idea of pillow-talk. 

I've always enjoyed reading your unsullied perspectives in past seasons, and I will enjoy reading your book-sullied perspectives going forward. 

 

Dorne was one of my favorite parts of AFFC and it makes me angry to see how that storyline has been mutilated on the show. I don't have a problem with the show diverging from the books at this point, since GRRM's story is still baking, but what did poor Doran, Areo Hotah and Trystane ever do to D&D to cause the show-runners to treat them in such a sorry manner. 

 

On the upside, we cheered and I was teary-eyed when Brienne pledged to Sansa.  Beautiful scene. And I personally think Theon is doing his best to try to make amends. I don't know how things work out in the Westerosi version of Karma, but I think his betraying days are past him. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by MarySNJ

[Chris24601]

Does anyone think Davos and The Jon's Watch (I'm calling them that from now on) are selling Ser Alliser short by believing he wants to kill all of them?

Now if The Jon's Watch wants to fight for Jon's honor because they feel that's what they want/need to do? Fine, but dont play it off like Alliser wants you dead, he needs every sword he can get, I don't think he'd waste 3-4 on a petty grudge against a dead man.

I think its more the latter. Jon's loyalists aren't going to just go along with a traitor to the Watch (because despite his claims, that's exactly what Alliser is now... he broke his vows to serve the Lord Commander, not them) and would rather die opposing said traitor than give in.

 

Another thing though in favor of them not trusting his offer is that Alliser is a short-sighted fool (the same guy who refused to seal the tunnel when Jon told them that a hundred thousand Wildlings were coming) who probably doesn't believe that the White Walkers and the armies of the dead are coming. I would not be surprised if Alliser views the Wildlings Jon let through the tunnel as the only threat that needs to be dealt with... in which case he's not got any particular reason to let the handful of Jon supporters live. Once you've broken your vows to the Lord Commander you may as well go for broke and take out anyone else who might oppose you.

 

As to Jon's inevitable resurrection. Since I think they have taken Melisandre off the board for resurrecting him, I'm wondering if instead it won't be Bran and/or the Three-Eyed Raven who are behind it (since according to the previews they're showing up next episode). What's the range on blood magic anyway? Could Bran choose to sacrifice someone (Hodor? we've only seen Meera in the previews) to pay for Jon's rebirth (which I think WILL happen while he's on his funeral pyre, the parallel to Dany birthing her dragons is just too strong for anything else)?

It might also explain why we're supposed to be getting some flashback via Bran to Hodor's early life and very likely the point where he suffered severe brain damage... i.e. the Three-Eyes Raven shows Bran something to make Bran believe that Hodor is something more like an animal and therefore expendable for the "greater good" of bringing back Jon to fight the White Walkers.

 

Stray thought: How bad of a feeling do we have about Ser Loras?

 

For some reason I get the feeling that he's going to hang himself in his cell or something. It just feels like they're setting Margaery up for a tragedy by her continually asking about him and being rebuffed by Unella and the High Sparrow.

The promos had a shot of Margery embracing Loras, so we know he at least lasts that long. Beyond that though is anyone's guess (leaning towards him leaving one way or the other since his actor has been cast as the lead in the Iron Fist Marvel Netflix series).

[ChromaKelly]

This episode left me wondering two things most of all.  Wouldn't Sansa be very familiar with Pod already from her time married to Tyrion?  Are we ever going to get a look at Jon's ability to warg on the show?  Just occurred to me, if Arya stumbles into an ability to warg it could give a whole new meaning to the Many Faced God.  

Yes, thank you. I kept waiting for Sansa to say "Pod? What are you doing here?" or something to acknowledge that she knows him. Wouldn't she be wondering why and how in the hell Pod got there? And what happened to Tyrion?

[Haleth]

Stray thought: How bad of a feeling do we have about Ser Loras?

 

For some reason I get the feeling that he's going to hang himself in his cell or something. It just feels like they're setting Margaery up for a tragedy by her continually asking about him and being rebuffed by Unella and the High Sparrow.

 

They've already destroyed his character absolutely in the show, I wouldn't put it past the writers to just have him give up and go the suicide-route instead of requesting a trial by combat he could probably win with one hand tied behind his back.

I think he has a date with Robert Strong that won't go well.

 

As to Jon's inevitable resurrection. Since I think they have taken Melisandre off the board for resurrecting him,

 

What makes you think she's off the board?  I think she's battling a crisis of faith but will come back to herself in time to do the job.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Haleth

[Brn2bwild]

Ok seriously though, what second cousin twice-removed is going to rule Dorne now because it can't seriously be one of these aweful Sand Snakes the show has given us, can it?

 

But whatever - I might be in total denial but since I basically no longer see the show as any indicator of where the books are going - I can enjoy the ride better (even while mourning what I know Dorne and Alexander S could have been).

 

Maybe "Arianne" will be summoned from exile.

[Lamima]

No mention of Littlefinger. I hope Sansa slits his throat.

[SFoster21]

Stray thought: How bad of a feeling do we have about Ser Loras?

For some reason I get the feeling that he's going to hang himself in his cell or something. It just feels like they're setting Margaery up for a tragedy by her continually asking about him and being rebuffed by Unella and the High Sparrow.

They've already destroyed his character absolutely in the show, I wouldn't put it past the writers to just have him give up and go the suicide-route instead of requesting a trial by combat he could probably win with one hand tied behind his back.

Well, in the book, he's been hurt and is an invalid. So, he's pretty much out of the story in both cases.

[elzin]

No mention of Littlefinger. I hope Sansa slits his throat.

That might be the only thing to redeem this season for me in any capacity.

 

I hated this episode.  Didn't like one thing about it. And it's not just WHAT happened but HOW it happened. It was boring and dull. The performances seemed half-assed. The cinematography didn't blow me away. The music wasn't striking. It just didn't work for me, not one second. I used to be sad there were only 10 episodes a season and now I'm relieved.

[Maximum Taco]

Yes, thank you. I kept waiting for Sansa to say "Pod? What are you doing here?" or something to acknowledge that she knows him. Wouldn't she be wondering why and how in the hell Pod got there? And what happened to Tyrion?

 

I don't think she'd wonder too much about Tyrion. Everyone in the kingdoms has probably heard that he killed Joff and then somehow escaped the dungeons. Pod doesn't know any more than that himself.

 

 

I think he has a date with Robert Strong that won't go well.

 

I hope that's the case, Loras dying in glorious battle would be an end befitting him.

 

But I can't help but have the feeling the show is going to just marginalize him again to try and (poorly) make a point.

[OhOkayWhat]

But that's a scene that takes place long before Ellaria and the Sand Snakes even attempt to kidnap Myrcella -- an attempt that completely fails and ends with them being taken into custody by Doran's guards. If they didn't even have the support for a surgical strike at that point, I hardly think it constitutes evidence that they had the support to decapitate the entire regime.

 

 

If that were the case, surely they would've sent a raven to Doran earlier. The fact that he didn't get a message until the ship got to King's Landing suggests that they didn't stop till they got there.

 

Also, Myrcella wasn't in a coffin when they landed. She was lying under a shroud.

I think their failed attempt is not related to the support of the populace, the populace was not going to make the kidnapping anyway, so they did it. Maybe after being taken in custody, probably in their time in prison, they changed their plan to coup. In prison they had access to the guards and how they was thinking about the whole thing. So now they think they had populace+guards.

 

The points you make about the message and the shroud are correct. But of course it does not mean it was impossible for the Sand Snakes to take another boat and follow the ship with Jaime , Myrcella and Tristane.

Edited April 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[proserpina65]

The more I think about Dorne, the more I think that D&D are attempting to write a more, eh, feminist story...and failing miserably.

Yeah, if they'd hemmed closer to the book, they could've used Ariane, Doran's actual heir, in the only kingdom where eldest daughters could inherit rather than only sons.  Okay, she wasn't THAT great in the books, but still much better than the mess we got.

[benteen]

I think its more the latter. Jon's loyalists aren't going to just go along with a traitor to the Watch (because despite his claims, that's exactly what Alliser is now... he broke his vows to serve the Lord Commander, not them) and would rather die opposing said traitor than give in.

 

Another thing though in favor of them not trusting his offer is that Alliser is a short-sighted fool (the same guy who refused to seal the tunnel when Jon told them that a hundred thousand Wildlings were coming) who probably doesn't believe that the White Walkers and the armies of the dead are coming. I would not be surprised if Alliser views the Wildlings Jon let through the tunnel as the only threat that needs to be dealt with... in which case he's not got any particular reason to let the handful of Jon supporters live. Once you've broken your vows to the Lord Commander you may as well go for broke and take out anyone else who might oppose you.

 

As to Jon's inevitable resurrection. Since I think they have taken Melisandre off the board for resurrecting him, I'm wondering if instead it won't be Bran and/or the Three-Eyed Raven who are behind it (since according to the previews they're showing up next episode). What's the range on blood magic anyway? Could Bran choose to sacrifice someone (Hodor? we've only seen Meera in the previews) to pay for Jon's rebirth (which I think WILL happen while he's on his funeral pyre, the parallel to Dany birthing her dragons is just too strong for anything else)?

It might also explain why we're supposed to be getting some flashback via Bran to Hodor's early life and very likely the point where he suffered severe brain damage... i.e. the Three-Eyes Raven shows Bran something to make Bran believe that Hodor is something more like an animal and therefore expendable for the "greater good" of bringing back Jon to fight the White Walkers.

 

 

 

The promos had a shot of Margery embracing Loras, so we know he at least lasts that long. Beyond that though is anyone's guess (leaning towards him leaving one way or the other since his actor has been cast as the lead in the Iron Fist Marvel Netflix series).

 

I'm glad for Finn Jones.  He'll soon be starring on a show where they're appreciate him.

 

I agree about Edd and the Jon-loyalists.  I think they are pretty much done with the Watch at this point.  Their loyalty to it died when Jon was betrayed and killed.

[Eyes High]

This episode left me wondering two things most of all.  Wouldn't Sansa be very familiar with Pod already from her time married to Tyrion?  

 

In Sansa's defence, I don't think she had any dealings with Pod before her marriage to Tyrion, and I think Sansa was married to Tyrion for less than a month in the show before the Purple Wedding rolled around, with most of that period spent in abject despair over the death of her mother and brother.

 

In any event, I think we can give Sansa a pass for not recognizing Pod, what with the hypothermia and the narrow escape from a psychopathic rapist and all.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[proserpina65]

Speaking of Mel, book readers can't be shocked right?

 

The only reason I wasn't shocked was because I'd read speculation about Mel really being ancient.  Nothing in the books had led me to think it myself.  I do think that her scene was marvelously well done, though.

[Rhondinella]

I'm pretty sure he was on the ship that Jaime sailed home in. You see him painting one of those rocks they put on the eyes of dead bodies, so he seemed to think he'd be going to Myrcella's funeral. I wonder if there's a deleted scene in which Jaime makes him wait on the boat until he can make sure that Cersei isn't going to murder him.

 

I can make this Dorne storyline work.  The sandsnakes waited for the prince and everybody else to depart then Obara and her sister quickly got on a smaller faster boat and followed the ship at a safe distance. Once they saw the ship was anchored, they waited for Jaime and Co to depart and then they quickly got on the ship and murdered Trystanne and Voila.

 

 

Eh, maybe?  Still seems a completely unrealistic way for anyone to act in the situation. 1) Even if Jaime doesn't want to take his wrath out on the innocent Trystane (which Cersei would certainly have no problem with), I still don't see how they just calmly sail on home when his daughter is murdered WITHIN SIGHT of the murderers.  I guess maybe he figures he'll sail home and come back with an army since he and Bronn alone can't do anything? But, of course, in the scene we saw between him and Cersei he gives no hint that he even suspects murder, so is it possible he doesn't even KNOW she was murdered?  Jaime is merciful and soft-hearted and times but not usually stupid.  But even if he were in this case you know Cersei would be screaming (literally) bloody murder all over the place because she's never trusted the Martells.  So it just seems weird to me that they're all taking this so calmly.  Of course, next week may prove different.

 

Secondly, if I were the Sand Snakes planning a coup and wanted to get rid of the heir to the throne, I'd put him on a boat with my enemies' princess, right before we assassinated her and dust off my hands.  Let my enemies do the rest. Or at least keep him hostage in exile while we take over.  Seems unnecessary to chase him all the way across a continent to put a spear in the back of his head immediately.

 

So, still, some serious narrative disfluency even if it can be plausibly explained.

[Cherpumple]

I just realized that we didn't get a scene of Melisandre admitting to Davos that she had sacrificed Shireen. I really wanted to see that, and was expecting the ass-kicking of the century when he found out. But they just glossed over it. Shame.

[Happy Harpy]

So is killing your half cousin classified as kinslaying?  Regardless, I'm pretty sure that "kill my brother and nephew" was not a part of Oberyn's last will and testament.  So now the recognized House Martell is gone, House Baratheon is effectively gone (Tommen is toast at some point), House Lannister has no heirs, House Arryn is reduced to a lunatic child and House Tyrell has its kids rotting in prison.  Who knew the Starks would be in the best shape compared to their fellow Great Houses.

House Baratheon (or Baratheon blood, at least) isn't gone, he's still rowing and I want him back this season damnit!

[Eyes High]

I love how the Dothraki guys are all superhot. Nina Gold must have had a great time casting this season.

[plurie]

Dorne was awful, but at least it was (mostly) over quickly. I wasn't a big fan of the whole "Darkstar" plot in the books, but I loved Doran's long plot. If we weren't going to get that, I'm glad they put him out of his misery. I think D&D are trying to prune back the plot lines of the book, so it makes sense in a way.

 

I don't think Mel is out of contention for the resurrection of Jon Snow, she just has to figure out how to do it. And I think she takes off the necklace before bed every night unless she's with someone. Maybe it has to "recharge" periodically?

 

I think Sansa is finally on a (permanent) upward trajectory, so the rapey torturey stuff is probably behind her.

 

I suspect Dani was going to end up on her way to the Dosh Kaleen in the books as well, so I can't complain about that. I'm not sure she'll get there, and, if she does, she'll probably get all the Dothraki to follow her (because DRAGONS). The Meerenese burning the ships is just stupid. If they want the Westerosis to leave, why cut off their way out? Or do they really think they can kill all the unsullied, plus Tyrion, Varys, etc. (and Dani's crew if they return)?

[OhOkayWhat]

After watching Davos tonight I am more convinced that Sansa needs him as Politics teacher and not Petyr. Davos made mistakes of course, some of them very big mistakes, but I think he is a good man and he know how to deal with almost every kind of people. And I think he could help her to inspire people. It seems like Petyr wants teach her how to manipulate and that is wrong.

Edited April 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Maximum Taco]

The only reason I wasn't shocked was because I'd read speculation about Mel really being ancient.  Nothing in the books had led me to think it myself.  I do think that her scene was marvelously well done, though.

 

The only reason I thought it in the books was because she uses glamours in the books. In particular she uses a glamour to make the Lord of Bones look like Mance Rayder and vice versa (and Mance is even given a ruby to maintain his glamour when he's away from Meli.)

 

They don't do that in the show though, so I wasn't sure if she had this power.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Chris24601]

What makes you think she's off the board? I think she's battling a crisis of faith but will come back to herself in time to do the job.

I agree she's suffering a crisis of faith. The issue there is how does she overcome it when she doesn't even trust what she sees in the flames at this point? To recover her faith she needs a sign and I think it makes the most narrative sense if Jon's resurrection is the sign that restores her faith.

Basically, if Mel recovers her faith on her own and rezzes Jon then that's a sign that everyone should be following Mel. But if Jon is restored without her actions then its a sign that Mel and everyone else should be following Jon (because coming back from the dead is one of those things that spawn enduring world religions... two thousand years from now the dominant faith of Westeros will recount how Saints Davos, Edd and Tormund protected the Lord Jon Snow's body during the three days before his resurrection).

[Oscirus]

To be fair to Sansa, she just escaped hell and was participating in a formal ceremony right after. It wasn't the time to go "Hey Podrick, long time."

 

I still don't see how they just calmly sail on home when his daughter is murdered WITHIN SIGHT of the murderers.

 

Because it was two of them against an entire Dorne army at that point.  There wasn't really anything they could do at that point.

 

So, still, some serious narrative disfluency even if it can be plausibly explained

 

Definitely agree with this.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Game Of Thrones Lets It All Hang Out
Come join the party, even if you're already dead!

[Rhondinella]

I just realized that we didn't get a scene of Melisandre admitting to Davos that she had sacrificed Shireen. I really wanted to see that, and was expecting the ass-kicking of the century when he found out. But they just glossed over it. Shame.

 

 

YES! I kept asking through the whole show whether Davos even KNOWS what happened to Shireen? I mean, I suppose he must, because she's not there anymore and he'd surely be asking where she went, and her mother too. But if he learned the truth then why he wouldn't have unleashed his wrath against Melisandre I don't understand. Instead he calmly mentions her as a solution to the Jon problem.  There were definitely some dots that needed connecting there for me.  One of several plot lines with gaping unexplained holes in them. (Unless we're to assume people have lied to him about how Shireen and the Queen died? But it seems unlikely something like that would stay secret with that many people witnessing it).

 

After watching Davos tonight I am more convinced that Sansa needs him as Politics teacher and not Petyr. Davos made mistakes of course, some of them very big mistakes, but I think he is a good man and he know how to deal with almost every kind of people. And I think he could help her to inspire people.

 

 

 

Definitely. Davos has been the Ned Stark of the show almost since Ned Stark himself died.

[dr pepper]

All of those are older than Chaucer. They are good old Anglo Saxon words. Ancient. They were spelled a bit differently sometimes, for example "fuck" was often spelled "fokke," and meant to strike, hit, or knock, as well as to copulate, but they have been a part of the English language for as long as it has existed.

 

Etymologically it's a variant of "poke". and was already a swear back when the angles and the saxons could still tell themselves apart.

[SeanC]

YES! I kept asking through the whole show whether Davos even KNOWS what happened to Shireen? I mean, I suppose he must, because she's not there anymore and he'd surely be asking where she went, and her mother too. 

Davos doesn't know that Shireen was sacrificed.  He asked about Shireen when Mel returned in 510, to which Mel gave the blank "she's dead" stare, but without further details the implication is the Boltons killed her.

 

Because it was two of them against an entire Dorne army at that point.  There wasn't really anything they could do at that point.

It wasn't Jaime's decision, though.  It was Trystane's boat.