S32.E09: It's Psychological Warfare

[Ms Blue Jay]

I know there is a lot of talk/hope about Tai being some secret strategic genius, but I honestly have not seen it. He seems to be fairly straight forward, and he is either naive or simply unwilling to be cutthroat. 

 

I don't think it's so black and white between Tai is a strategic genius or straightforward.  I think there's more nuance there, but with the editing of this show it is hard to read Tai, in my opinion.  Hardest to read Michelle, sort of hard to read the others, and it goes from there all the way until you get to Joe.

 

I'm going to go out on a biased-towards-limb here and say that Tai is dealing with some kind of Stockholm Syndrome that is unique to this game.  The game is for a million dollars and it would be great if someone could stand up and say "Hey, you assholes are bullies, and I can't stand for this!"  But honestly, in this game, I think Tai is (not sure what the word is - scrappy, cutthroat) enough that he has thrown his pride out the window.  

 

I don't know.. in the context of the game I get what he's doing.  I know for a fact I wouldn't be able to do it myself, which is why I maybe not would be successful at this game. It's also too bad that casting on this show seems to prioritize misogynistic bullying assholes over just  anything else.  I just think, given Tai's life history, he's been through much worse than watching some men throw tantrums and water.

 

Speaking of, shout out to the poster that noted Michelle's blase reaction to Scot putting out the fire.  Reminded me of Cydney practically yawning at Scot and Jason's tribal shenanigans.   I know so little of Michelle, but what I do I find fascinating.  The kind of woman that can be strong and not give a hulking bully asshole the reaction that he so desperately wants from her -- just wow.   Although, honestly, if pushed enough, Scot seems totally fucking deranged, so I can understand people cowtowing to him.  Hence, my Stockholm Syndrome thing.  

 

Julia aligning with these guys and Tai putting out the fire -- these are almost impossible for me to reconcile.  I don't know what to say.  "Gameplay" and blah blah blah, but still.  There are things that I won't do for a million dollars.  But I know that Scot/Jason are the worst and I'll be waiting until I tarnish others with the same brush.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[himela]

So if Tai and Julia stay with the guys (which in my opinion will secure their win) things are simple; the three women and Joe leave one by one and the rest fight it out to the final three. I hope this doesn't happen but if Tai and Julia are smart this is what they will do.

[ghoulina]

If Aubry can get to Tai. She can have him convince the fugly twins that he'd combine his idol with their's to use as super idol if one of them gets voted for. Then the girl group can all vote for Cupcake and then when he looks at Tai and says' use the super idol' Tai can say 'nah'. And if Cupcake actually hands him his idol like he did last time, then Tai will walk away with the super idol. Oh, please please please let this happen. I bet it doesn't though and I bet Aubry or Cydney goes home.

 

This is the only scenario in which I will like that stupid Super Idol - if one of the asshat twins thinks they'll be able to play it after the vote, but Tai holds onto his, and one of them goes home. Otherwise I hate that stupid thing. 

[Archery]

I wonder if the SuperIdol was designed with secrecy in mind.  IOW, maybe the producers didn't expect the guys to announce, hey! we have this! The only way that powerful idol makes sense is if have to have the SI in your possession before the voting, and you play it after the votes are read (which would be the step up from the HII getting played after the votes but before they're read).  So, you're sitting there with the (hidden) SI, the opposite alliance votes for you, you pull it out and negate the votes, next guy up goes home.  But that works optimally only if the other alliance doesn't know you have the weapon.  Instead it becomes a shell game to figure out who has the SI.  And it's just not strategic as a game rule to allow the SI to be passed after the votes are read, so if that's allowed, then it's a rare Survivor rule fail.  My impression is that the Survivor producers want to introduce elements that require ninja strategizing, not a free pass.  That's not interesting or hashtag worthy at all.   

[Jobiska]

In addition to the tool-hiding and fire-dousing, we were also treated to the scene of Debbie asking for help steadying (her? communal?) glass bottle while she poured water into it, and Jason holding it but then taking a huge swig of it and offering it to Scot with just pure, as Debbie called them, wanker-ishness.

[peachmangosteen]

In addition to the tool-hiding and fire-dousing, we were also treated to the scene of Debbie asking for help steadying (her? communal?) glass bottle while she poured water into it, and Jason holding it but then taking a huge swig of it and offering it to Scot with just pure, as Debbie called them, wanker-ishness.

 

This was hilarious. And to me it was further proof that Scot is actually more of a dick than Jason. Jason comes off more run-of-the-mill douchebag to me, but Scot, quite frankly, comes off a bit scary imo.

Edited April 16, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[cooksdelight]

In addition to the tool-hiding and fire-dousing, we were also treated to the scene of Debbie asking for help steadying (her? communal?) glass bottle while she poured water into it, and Jason holding it but then taking a huge swig of it and offering it to Scot with just pure, as Debbie called them, wanker-ishness.

I don't like those guys, but that was one of my favorite scenes. The look on her face... and the two of them beginning their asshattery.

[Wings]

Khaleesi was none-too-happy about the falling-aparts of the Girl Power Alliance.  Her hatred (as much hatred as one can have at 9) for Scot and Cupcake is reaching an all-time high, and Tai is in her sights to be hated as well. 

 

Scot sits pouting about not being in on the plan

Scot looks like a gigantic baby.  Like a baby who smells bad but his diaper's clean, so he's just a big baby who naturally smells bad, sitting on a log and almost crying.  

 

Cupcake discusses psychological warfare (I almost spit out my drink laughing at this one, as first of all hiding shared property is not psychological warfare but rather unsportsmanlike conduct- and I firmly believe the only combat he's seen is in Call of Duty- and I also believe the only warfare he uses during bounty-hunting is going to the nearest seedy motel and showing a photo to the desk clerk)

You know when psychological warfare would make sense?  During a war. 

 

Tai sits with Cupcake and Scot while everyone hates them elsewhere

You know what, Tai?!  Don't tell them it's going to be "hard to watch" them starve the rest of the tribe.  Tell them to stop or you're going to leave their alliance and take your idol with you.  Their whole master plan involves your idol, so you're the boss of this group. 

 

Julia volunteers to go with the guys

Julia should have volunteered to go with the guys, make them lose the reward by messing up the ropes, then waited until she was alone with the guys after the challenge to tell them she might be willing to work with them and this was her way to talk to them in private without making everyone suspicious.  She's a dummy. 

 

Julia basically offers up her allegiance on a silver platter

Not super good at playing hard to get there, Julia.  These messes need you more than you need them, have some respect for yourself.

 

Aubry decides that Debbie is the biggest problem out there, Cydney agrees

Aubry thinks she's really smart, and Cydney doesn't like anyone who disagrees with Cydney.  Debbie is only a problem because she trusts Julia and Julia can't be trusted. So... instead of making the group Julia is going with weaker, they want to get rid of Debbie?   Not great, ladies.   

 

Brilliant!  

[Wings]

This irritated me just as much if not more than their antics. 

 

Joe, why did you sabotage the fire?

Scot, why would you sabotage us?

Joe, it's a game.  

 

This man was a professional athlete who does not understand sportsmanship or the nature of a competition?   Khaleesi is correct, he is a big baby.  

 

Beside my point but Joe and Scot were never aligned!  It would have been just as ignorant had he said it to Cydney but would make a little sense in his numbskull way of thinking.  

[Blissfool]

Tai: the boys are taking it too far. I am not that kind of person. I am caring and compassionate. (Then he pours 5 gallons of water over the fire.)

I seem to think he did something similar earlier in the game; after going on and on about how much he loved nature, he did something very anti-nature.

I thought joe was going to play martyr, volunteer to be on the boys team, and sabotage their game so that the girls could have the chinese dinner.

[Wings]

Tai: the boys are taking it too far. I am not that kind of person. I am caring and compassionate. (Then he pours 5 gallons of water over the fire.)

I seem to think he did something similar earlier in the game; after going on and on about how much he loved nature, he did something very anti-nature.

I thought joe was going to play martyr, volunteer to be on the boys team, and sabotage their game so that the girls could have the chinese dinner.

 

 

What did he do?

[Blissfool]

What did he do?

I don't remember, but i seem to remember that i have thought of him as a hypocrite before.

[backformore]

Ok i might have it wrong but I think the following is right: The girls & Joe vote 3 for Scot and 3 for Jason. The guys vote 3 for Cydney. We are not sure whether Julia will vote with the girls or the guys. Before the Debbie plan happened, I remember her saying "I have the option to vote out Cydney but I am not sure yet". So if Julia votes with the girls and Jason uses the super idol after the votes, there is a tie and Scot is out at the revote. Isn't this right?

 

Yes, and I have no idea why the women didn't see this as obvious .  They needed to get rid of one of the guys this week, and they needed to do it while also forcing them to use the SuperIdol. 

 

Though best case scenario, to me, would be Scott getting the most votes, and Tai REFUSING to use his idol to save him.  If only Tai could see his way to do something like that, he'd practically be guaranteed the win.   

[Ms Blue Jay]

I don't remember, but i seem to remember that i have thought of him as a hypocrite before.

 

When Tai was digging up planted trees to find an idol, a bunch of people freaked out that he was a hypocrite that suddenly doesn't like nature.  But I thought it was confirmed that those were recently planted trees that could easily be put back without harm?

[allboys]

 Are you thinking about when Tail pulled up a bunch of trees looking for the idol?

[dkb]

this to me is different. Maybe because I loathe them - but it just seemed like whiny bitch face. "They voted Nick out, let's make them suffer." Scot even said it. "they were bragging about how they were able to do things without the stuff they (Brotherhood of the Ugly Tattoos), had hid. and then for Scot to have the unmitigated gall to stand up over everyone and drown out the fire? Honestly - it's things like that which show why I couldn't be on Survivor, because I would have done something to Scot. Kicked him, hit him, I don't know, but i would have been thrown out of the game. (and honestly at this point I would have gone - if y'all want to be douchecanoes - fine.) and then I would have gone and made shelter somewhere else, and taken the flint. Let those morons figure out how to survive without the fire. Jeff wouldn't have provided it, and it only takes a day to get a new shelter. they could live without the Mango, and obviously they aren't eating the chicken, so i would have taken that with me too. 

 

 

 

 

Agreed with your entire post, but this part spoke to me. You hid the machetes---your a giant douchebag baby- but fine. But the fact that he couldn't handle the others not breaking down and begging  them for forgiveness, and just going about their day like mature adults makes soooooo mad.

 

When he picked up the water and threw out on the fire, I would have punched him so hard. There are many reasons why I wouldn't be on Survivor but this is one.

I am not a confrontational person but if he did that to me, after being away from my family, not eating, sleeping on bambo(with strangers), being dirty, dealing with infections and the heat, I would have totally flipped out. I'm sorry that we aren't providing you with the reaction you wanted but screw you!

[Black Knight]

I wonder if the SuperIdol was designed with secrecy in mind.  IOW, maybe the producers didn't expect the guys to announce, hey! we have this!

Yes, I think that was exactly the intention. The producers wanted an epic shocking moment where an alliance thinks they're in the clear because no immunity idols were played before the votes were read, and then pow, their just-voted-off target whips out the Super Idol after all the votes have been read! And really, the reactions would have been priceless. It can only be done one time, but that one time, the reactions would have been priceless.

[Tasya]

 

Ok i might have it wrong but I think the following is right: The girls & Joe vote 3 for Scot and 3 for Jason. The guys vote 3 for Cydney. We are not sure whether Julia will vote with the girls or the guys. Before the Debbie plan happened, I remember her saying "I have the option to vote out Cydney but I am not sure yet". So if Julia votes with the girls and Jason uses the super idol after the votes, there is a tie and Scot is out at the revote. Isn't this right?

This is wrong because in this scenario everyone has 3 votes and they do not have to use the super idol. You only have to use the idol if you're going home for sure. In a tie vote it doesn't happen like that. The revote would happen with the idol still in play. Add that to the fact that Julia only went with the girls because they said that they would vote for Debbie. If they hadn't suggested Debbie, does anyone actually think that Julia wouldn't have flipped to the guys and voted out Cydney? All of the game play rested on what Julia would do. In the end they went with getting Debbie out because they didn't trust that Julia wouldn't vote with the guys. Otherwise you definitely split the votes because on the revote you would have 3 each for Cyd, Jason and Scott. On the revote those three can not vote and you have to restrict your vote to those three. So on the revote you have Tai, Julia, Joe, Aubry, Debbie and Michelle voting. In theory it goes like this: 

 

Tai votes for Cyd

Joe/Debbie/Aubry vote for Jason

Michelle/Julie vote for Scott 

 

One of the beastly brothers goes home because the idol can only save one of them. But again that relies on Julia not going for Cyd the first time and also not going for Cyd the second time. I think that they just didn't - and are wise in my opinion - trust Julia to vote for anyone on the girls side except for Debbie. In fact I think that Julia would have voted for any of the girls alliance that had been suggested because she is already playing the end game. She wants to make it to the end with those two bullies so she knows she has to get out of the girls alliance sooner rather than later. 

[ForeverAlone]

The Super Idol may have lost any secrecy factor, but it almost makes for more interesting strategic decisions for everyone to know about it (though it can be frustrating). The reaction to it so far has been more like the reaction to Yul's idol (which is basically the same thing, except this one can be used on anyone). We'll have to see if that continues next week, but we have already seen it affect voting patterns, where the women were more willing to vote out a member of their own alliance rather than risk sending one of their stronger players home. To counteract the Super Idol, you either have to be willing to sacrifice one of your own stronger players or you have to lure Tai away from the men, either which could make for some interesting game play. 

[henripootel]

To counteract the Super Idol, you either have to be willing to sacrifice one of your own stronger players or you have to lure Tai away from the men, either which could make for some interesting game play.

I'm gonna have to disagree here - I'm not sure it's 'game play' at all in the conventional sense.  I mean it's part of the game now cuz the producers made it so, but it changes everything about we think playing the game really amounts to.  If you're right that the SI can be played for anyone, then any alliance with it is pretty much invulnerable, if they stick together.  This sets up huge collective action problem for anyone not in the SI group - they all want it flushed, but nobody wants to sacrifice themselves to do it.  The only real move is to try and break up the SI alliance, which could be difficult if you can't convince whomever is actually holding the SI that they'd be better off at FTC sitting next to you.  Absent that, you're all fucked.

 

At the same time, the SI Alliance has a huge advantage for busting the other alliances.  All they have to do is say 'first one (or ones) to join the SI Alliance get to live', and some will, because it's the smart move.  Folks'd be fools not to take that offer, and when the SI alliance has a majority, the pagonging begins.  

 

Worth noting that, contrary to idea of keeping it a secret, this only works if everybody knows about the SI, and that your group has it.  Keeping it secret may give your group a single crushing victory (a cheap-ass blindside since it magically undoes proper gameplay), but playing it smart pretty much guarantees someone in your group wins.

 

This is the problem with an SI that can be used after the votes are read - played properly, it's unassailable.  If you're not in that alliance you have to hope one of the folks in it does something stupid.  It's just too big an advantage.  You don't even have to figure out who the non-SI alliance is planning to vote out, just promise to undo any vote that they make.  

Edited April 16, 2016 by henripootel

[millennium]

Lantern7, on 13 Apr 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

    Damn. That sucked. I wonder if the Brotherhood Of The Ugly Tattoos jerked off after their grandstanding play, or if they did that to each other.

 

Mark the chicken ;-)

 

Maybe they should have named it Choke.

[KimberStormer]

Regarding the super idol: I think it only makes sense as a thing if you can play it on anyone.  After the votes are read.  Otherwise, the big jan-ken-pon (sorry I mean roshambo) show tonight would have been a crazy risk--indeed the super idol itself would just never be worth it, because you give away your idol and then just have to hope you gave it to the right person, exactly like a regular idol, if not worse.  I figure even the original Yul/Terry idol worked this way, because Yul couldn't have used it to make his entire alliance invincible the way he did if not; Jonathan could have just said "guys Yul has the idol, vote for Becky instead" or whatever.

 

laurakaye, on 15 Apr 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

I can't figure out why on earth Tai didn't keep it.  What recourse could Bounty/Lurch have against Tai if he kept it?  I guess they could've killed his chicken...and now that I think it through, that's probably exactly what they would've done. 

 

Well their recourse could be to vote for him.  At that point Tai would have literally no allies at all.  He could save himself once, but that would be it.

 

Archery, on 15 Apr 2016 - 2:19 PM, said:

I wonder if the SuperIdol was designed with secrecy in mind.  IOW, maybe the producers didn't expect the guys to announce, hey! we have this! The only way that powerful idol makes sense is if have to have the SI in your possession before the voting, and you play it after the votes are read (which would be the step up from the HII getting played after the votes but before they're read).  So, you're sitting there with the (hidden) SI, the opposite alliance votes for you, you pull it out and negate the votes, next guy up goes home.  But that works optimally only if the other alliance doesn't know you have the weapon.  Instead it becomes a shell game to figure out who has the SI.  And it's just not strategic as a game rule to allow the SI to be passed after the votes are read, so if that's allowed, then it's a rare Survivor rule fail.  My impression is that the Survivor producers want to introduce elements that require ninja strategizing, not a free pass.  That's not interesting or hashtag worthy at all.   

 

I think they did think this at first, back in Panama/Cooks, but then along came Yul, who, being smarter than Terry (no great feat) realized that the idol as he had it was vastly more powerful if you told people about it beforehand.  Then they changed the idol rules to the classical perfection of balance that they have now.  Then time passed and people (like Tyler Perry) forgot how fucking stupid and game-ruining the Yul idol was, so we got the stupid fucking thing again in Cagayan, but in the hands of Tony who was not in the minority alliance and so had no real reason to use it that way.  (As Cochran, I think, pointed out, Tony instead used it as a sort of magic feather parachute so he could make the craziest of moves without ever having to worry about it blowing up in his face, so Cagayan was more wacky than it would have been otherwise.)  Now, perhaps, they have remembered why they got rid of it in the first place, since it didn't show up in Second Chances, which is good, because it's the worst thing ever.  (I will always consider both Yul and Tony's wins tainted by this piece of garbage idol.)

 

Tasya, on 15 Apr 2016 - 8:43 PM, said:

This is wrong because in this scenario everyone has 3 votes and they do not have to use the super idol. You only have to use the idol if you're going home for sure. In a tie vote it doesn't happen like that. The revote would happen with the idol still in play. Add that to the fact that Julia only went with the girls because they said that they would vote for Debbie. If they hadn't suggested Debbie, does anyone actually think that Julia wouldn't have flipped to the guys and voted out Cydney?

 

I think maybe.  It's hard to say, but I think she might like a scenario where the heinous dudes stay and the idols go to Idol Ponderosa.  (Because idols are trouble if they're not in your hands.)  Possible she was originally hoping, by telling them who the split votes were going on, that they would use the idols on those two and Cydney (or whoever--someone who is not Julia is the number one thing) goes home with no blood on her hands?  If she wasn't clear on or didn't believe the super idol stuff?  I mean I would say it's probably more likely she would vote for Cydney, but that would be an open declaration of flipping which I believe she would prefer to avoid, so I could see it going either way.

 

The question whether the super idol can be used after a revote is an interesting one.  In the very first split-vote plan, devised by Cao Boi in a dream (Plan Voodoo), he assumed the idol would be played after the votes but before any revote, and Yul (no fool and unbeknownst to Cao Boi, the actual possessor of the idol so the person who would know the rules) called it "ingenious".  But you've got me wondering now.

 

henripootel, on 15 Apr 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

This is the problem with an SI that can be used after the votes are read - played properly, it's unassailable.  If you're not in that alliance you have to hope one of the folks in it does something stupid.  It's just too big an advantage.  You don't even have to figure out who the non-SI alliance is planning to vote out, just promise to undo any vote that they make.  

 

Exactly this.  It's the worst thing they've ever come up with on Survivor, IMO.  And if Tasya is right you can't even Plan Voodoo it out.  Grrrahhh I hate it so much.  This is one reason I am rooting for Julia, actually, because someone riding two assholes and their super-idol surfboard to F4, and immunity-winning herself (if all else fails) to FTC where she of course beats them, is probably the best story possible with this dumb idol in the game.

[hyukx3]

you have to sacrifice one of your own to flush out the idol becoz voting one of your own out just becoz you cant oust the boys for ONE TRIBAL becoz they have the super idol is a worse decision to make. it's a numbers game. well, now it's not so clear if the girls still have the numbers. and of course, they wouldnt court tai in last week's episode becoz they dont know about the super idol. so u had to sacrifice one while you still have the numbers.

Edited April 16, 2016 by hyukx3

[azshadowwalker]

Yes, and I have no idea why the women didn't see this as obvious .  They needed to get rid of one of the guys this week, and they needed to do it while also forcing them to use the SuperIdol. 

 

I'm  not sure why any of the women should fall on her proverbial sword to save Debbie and flush the idol. It's all well and good to say they should get rid of the idol, but that means the guys get to choose who goes home. Instead, get rid of the big mouth who's running around yapping about the plans and can't figure out that 2 is less than 3. The women and Joe get three more days to figure something else out without having to sacrifice someone who might actually be useful. I think they'll be perfectly happy to sacrifice Joe, too, as they should be. Frankly, I'm glad they saw it that way. I'd much rather watch Cydney play her game than listen to Debbie run her yap and act like she's a mastermind.

 

On another note, Debbie's post-show interviews show that she's not much of a player. If she can't figure out that splitting votes 2-2-2 would lose to the three guys voting together, she's even more hopeless than I thought. I guess lying about things to put herself in a good light is a tried and true mode of behavior for Debbie, though.

Edited April 16, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[hyukx3]

let the boys chose who to go home as long as you still have the numbers. if u willingly sacrifice debbie, you will effectively sacrifice the whole lot of the alliance now that they are at a disadvantage against the boys.

 

sacrifice one to save many. if u dont sacrifice, now all will perish

Edited April 16, 2016 by hyukx3

[Lamima]

I thought joe was going to play martyr, volunteer to be on the boys team, and sabotage their game so that the girls could have the chinese dinner.

When Joe chose which team to root for in the reward challenge- had Julia already volunteered to be on the guys' team? If so, he should have went with the guys' team too so he could hear what they talked about during the Chinese meal (whether they won or not they'd be separate from the girls team and talking with Julia).

Edited April 16, 2016 by Lamima

[Drogo]

I believe Joe volunteered to sit out before Jeff said they could choose between a schoolyard pick and choosing their own teams. But I really like where your head is at.

[hyukx3]

joe sitout first, then julia volunteered to be on the boys team. it'll be smart to pick the boys, that gives you the chance to keep tabs on the boys and julia, but of course we all know joe is not very strategically smart, for a former fbi agent.

[Lamima]

Yeah, I think he volunteered to sit out, then Julia volunteered to go with the boys and the teams were divided and THEN Jeff asked what team Joe would root for...Joe should have said Julia's and then the boys couldn't have talked strategy with her or at least Joe would have heard exactly what.

[peachmangosteen]

joe sitout first, then julia volunteered to be on the boys team. it'll be smart to pick the boys, that gives you the chance to keep tabs on the boys and julia, but of course we all know joe is not very strategically smart, for a former fbi agent.

 

Joe's entire game is strictly about loyalty. Every single one of his decisions is based on his loyalty to Debbie and Aubry. It's deeply stupid and at times annoying, but it's sorta weirdly admirable and sweet at the same time.

[hyukx3]

if he's loyal, then he should vote along with the alliance, not always just vote for whoever he wants. plus he's not jockeying for position. julia, aubrey and cydney are. he's not doing the work when it comes to the social game. maybe it's just editing, who knows? i dont see his type of game can win the millionz. loyalty didnt get woo anywhere. joe wont have the resume when final tribal comes.

Edited April 16, 2016 by hyukx3

[Daisy]

Agreed with your entire post, but this part spoke to me. You hid the machetes---your a giant douchebag baby- but fine. But the fact that he couldn't handle the others not breaking down and begging  them for forgiveness, and just going about their day like mature adults makes soooooo mad.

 

When he picked up the water and threw out on the fire, I would have punched him so hard. There are many reasons why I wouldn't be on Survivor but this is one.

I am not a confrontational person but if he did that to me, after being away from my family, not eating, sleeping on bambo(with strangers), being dirty, dealing with infections and the heat, I would have totally flipped out. I'm sorry that we aren't providing you with the reaction you wanted but screw you!

 

 

Right? Someone said it too - (I think it was PeachMangoSteen) - Cydney + Michelle acted very zen like there. I just know i would have flipped out (and probably have given Scot the reaction they wanted). but I do think Debbie said it best. screw with us with the game mechanics (and honestly - I DO include any "island foods" - fish, fruit, veggies, etc, game mechanics), but basic survival? (the axe/machete, water, rice/beans, fire (other than acts of God) needs to be OFF limits, Show. I get it's drama, but people shouldn't be scared that someone is going to pee in the rice (B. Hantz), DUMP the rice (J'Tia), or destroy the things that help them stay warm/cook food, etc (Scot). that's outside the game to me

 

(which is why Sandra tossing the fish - doesn't bug me (as so much). which again, by her reasoning - they never helped Rupert get fish, Rupert kept their butt fed, and then the blindsided him, and then crowed how they blindsided him AND got the fish. Sandra was like. oh no you blindsided him, but you ain't gettin the fish! - - then her next confessional  (and she's said this post show too) she realised she couldn't go all kamikaze because she could easily be there the next day and she'd have suffered. (and then Crista got blamed for the fish). had. Sandra actually started removing the basic survival tools, I'd be not so happy with her either). 

 

 

Honestly i wish someone had just said. we're living down the beach, we're taking the flint, bye, Felecia. 

[needschocolate]

This was hilarious. And to me it was further proof like Scot is actually more of a dick than Jason. Jason comes off more run-of-the-mill douchebag to me, but Scot, quite frankly, comes off a bit scary imo.

 

 It is like Jason wants to be a bully and and acts like a bully, but Scot is actually a bully and probably the kind who doesn't think he is a bully.

 

if he's loyal, then he should vote along with the alliance, not always just vote for whoever he wants. plus he's not jockeying for position. julia, aubrey and cydney are. he's not doing the work when it comes to the social game. maybe it's just editing, who knows? i dont see his type of game can win the millionz. loyalty didnt get woo anywhere. joe wont have the resume when final tribal comes.

 

I think to Joe, his alliance is only with Debbie and maybe Aubry (now that she has not voted with him twice, he may not include her anymore).  It will be interesting to see what Joe does now that Debbie is gone, and this is a first, as I never been interested in what Joe does before.  

 

Since Julia wasn't planning to vote with them against one of the guys (and many of the girls knew it) that wouldn't have been a good idea this week.  Julia would have probably thrown her vote in with the guys and taken Cydney out.

I meant that the best hope the Women + Joe alliance had was if the votes split 3-3-3 and one of the guys goes home and the superidol is used up, I didn't mean to say it was likely to happen.  I can see why they would get rid of Debbie to save Cydney. 

[Guest]

let the boys chose who to go home as long as you still have the numbers. if u willingly sacrifice debbie, you will effectively sacrifice the whole lot of the alliance now that they are at a disadvantage against the boys.

 

sacrifice one to save many. if u dont sacrifice, now all will perish

I'm with you.  Assuming they know how the super idol works, the best choice is to flush it now, even though it costs them someone today.  So 5 (Cyd, Deb, Aubrey, Michelle and Joe) could target Jason, the bros+Julia would be 4 and whoever they voted for would go home.  But after that they have 4 (assuming Julia sticks with them, and I'm not sure she would without their idols) and the other side has 4.  It's even but no one has idols.  If they don't burn that idol, the other side prances to the end with it, anyway, and the other 5 all have no shot.  

 

Under that scenario, next week starts and it's 4:4, worst case scenario if Julia remains with the guys, and there is no idol.  The way it is now, it's 4:4 and the bros still have the super idol.  I'd much rather have Debbie and not Cyd and have that idol gone.  No idol means no reason for Tai to stick with the bros, too.  So then they just need to flip Tai or Julia and they're back in the majority.  

[hyukx3]

you have to wait and see if which side julia is gonna vote for next week and will tai switch alliance? personally, i think tai is in the same position as julia, but he has the super idol. if he can believe that he has a good chance for the million against the two boys, then he shouldnt switch. tho still switching wouldnt destroy his game. u just dont know which way he'll go becoz he needs someone to pull him type of person.

Edited April 16, 2016 by hyukx3

[Hera]

Honestly i wish someone had just said. we're living down the beach, we're taking the flint, bye, Felecia.

Same here, though that doesn't really stop Scot, Jason, and Tai from being able to put out their fires or steal their equipment when nobody's looking. It would have been satisfying, though.

 

I had never considered the possibility that the super idol could be played after a revote. Whoever wrote the Survivor Wikia doesn't seem to think that it's allowed (links: hidden immunity idol and tie-breakers), so if that's accurate, then Plan Voodoo would still work. Unfortunately, the time to attempt it has passed, unless Tai flips on Scot and Jason and Julia doesn't flip on Cydney, Aubry, Michele, and Joe. However, if Tai flips on Scot and Jason, then Plan Voodoo isn't needed anyway.

 

 

Tasya, on 15 Apr 2016 - 8:43 PM, said:

This is wrong because in this scenario everyone has 3 votes and they do not have to use the super idol. You only have to use the idol if you're going home for sure. In a tie vote it doesn't happen like that. The revote would happen with the idol still in play. Add that to the fact that Julia only went with the girls because they said that they would vote for Debbie. If they hadn't suggested Debbie, does anyone actually think that Julia wouldn't have flipped to the guys and voted out Cydney?

I think maybe.  It's hard to say, but I think she might like a scenario where the heinous dudes stay and the idols go to Idol Ponderosa.  (Because idols are trouble if they're not in your hands.)  Possible she was originally hoping, by telling them who the split votes were going on, that they would use the idols on those two and Cydney (or whoever--someone who is not Julia is the number one thing) goes home with no blood on her hands?  If she wasn't clear on or didn't believe the super idol stuff?  I mean I would say it's probably more likely she would vote for Cydney, but that would be an open declaration of flipping which I believe she would prefer to avoid, so I could see it going either way.

 

The question whether the super idol can be used after a revote is an interesting one.  In the very first split-vote plan, devised by Cao Boi in a dream (Plan Voodoo), he assumed the idol would be played after the votes but before any revote, and Yul (no fool and unbeknownst to Cao Boi, the actual possessor of the idol so the person who would know the rules) called it "ingenious".  But you've got me wondering now.

The fact that Yul then got Cao Boi voted out suggests to me that Cao Boi's assumption was correct. I realize there were a number of reasons for it, but I'm convinced that the main ones were that Cao Boi was completely right about how it would work and that it would have outed him as the idol holder before he was ready to announce it. I think at that point, it was known that somebody had the idol and the candidates were Jonathan, Candice, or Yul. If Cao Boi had pulled off Plan Voodoo that round, and neither Jonathan nor Candice pulled out an idol, then the only person left who could have found it was Yul, who would then (along with probably Becky) be vulnerable to the same split-vote strategy. However, just because the idol couldn't be used on a revote in Cook Islands doesn't mean that it's true this seasons—but I do think it's unlikely.

 

I'm not at all convinced that Julia or anyone in Cydney's alliance knew about Tai's idol, which means that even with perfect knowledge about how super idols work, they would not have considered it a factor in their plans. I think their split vote plan was an attempt to flush Jason's hidden immunity idol. Think about it: if they had known about the two hidden immunity idols (but didn't know/didn't factor in the super idol), then there was a 1/3 chance that all the votes they cast would be nullified and the three votes against Cydney would be enough to boot her. I can't imagine that alliance would be okay with that level of risk (and even if they were, a better way to enact that plan would be to deliberately leak one wrong name, so that an idol is wasted one someone who receives no votes). Plus, after Tai's performance in the last tribal council, they would have known that two regular idols can be combined, and I don't think it would have been lost on any of them that a 6/3 split is the last time they'd be able to do anything about a super idol without losing one of their own. The only way their move makes sense from their point of view is if they thought they were dealing with one hidden immunity idol, where splitting the vote is smart, but less urgent—you can sometimes convince people to waste a hidden immunity idol. An idol that can be played after the vote is much more serious, because it's impossible to waste it, leaving vote-splitting as pretty much the only way to deal with it.

 

As for Julia, it's certainly possible she told Scot and Jason the plan because she thought she could get them to burn a hidden immunity idol, but I doubt that was her only reason. She was pretty clear that she's looking to keep her options open for working with them down the line. She said in her confessional that Scot and Jason obvious goats and that she'd like to be sitting with them at the end. Telling them the voting plan when she knows they have an idol means that if the plan works, then Scot gets saved by Jason's idol, and Tai gets the boot, making room for her in a their Final 3, all without her having to signal that she's flipped by voting with them. Unfortunately for her, she lacked the finesse to do this without raising suspicions, but the plan to vote for Debbie ended up working for her in a very similar way: her goats are safe, and she hasn't had to vote against Michele, Cydney, or Aubry yet.

[hyukx3]

it would be nice if they could flush out the super idol, becoz i always enjoy watching the whole lot scrambling to look for idols on the next episode.

Edited April 16, 2016 by hyukx3

[henripootel]

Assuming they know how the super idol works, the best choice is to flush it now, even though it costs them someone today.

This is the essence of the classic collective action problem - everyone agrees what should be done, but nobody wants to be the one to do it.  It's why, for instance, we have pollution even though nobody wants to live in a polluted world.  We all agree what needs to be done and it's pretty simple to fix, but I think you should pay to clean it up and you think I should.  So nobody cleans it up and we all live in a polluted world, even though we all agree that it's terrible that there's trash everywhere.

 

In this case it's worse because the penalty for being the one who 'pays' is you go home.  If there's five in the 'no SI alliance', your chances of getting voted out are 1 in 5, right?  Nobody wants to risk that so instead, you make a deal to vote with the SI alliance.  Now your chances are 100% that you'll survive tonight's vote.  I'd take that deal, I mean who knows, maybe next round you'll win immunity outright and you'll be safe anyway.

 

So 'the group' (the alliance without the SI idol) might be better off if they all stick together and flush out the Super-Immunity Idol, but it's never gonna actually happen.  In truth there's no such thing as 'the group' interest, only a bunch of individual interests that are in 'a group' for the moment.  The first people to do the math jump ship and live, the one's who stay with the fiction that 'the group' matters get picked off.  Individual interest trumps 'group interest' every time. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by henripootel

[hyukx3]

in a game, it's easier to make sacrifices for the betterment of the group since it doesnt affect your real life. still, a 4 to 5 chance to keep your alliance strong the next day is better than saving your own skin for one tribal and be the inferior alliance the next day. i would take that chance if im a contestant. it's just that we can see the girls need to do the sacrifice. maybe the girls were looking from a different perspective, becoz they dont know what we know.. the girls dont know that the boys have a super idol and it's not clear if the girls knew what it can do.

 

still, there may be a hint of aubrey saving her own skin, becoz if u dont trust julia and suspect her spilling the voting secrets to the boys, aubrey wont think the 3-3-3 vote plan will work, it's not a guaranteed plan anymore.

 

and pollution, you cannot save pollution by telling people to stop using plastic, buying plastic, companies to stop manufacturing plastic, stop driving, littering ect. it's just not viable for convenience sake in day to day lives. for plastic, you need scientific advancements. littering, you need societal change. tell people to stop buying petroleum engine vehicles, you need societal change. campaigns, education, governments.

 

wasnt there a news that they could manufacture petroleum instead of drilling then refining?

[Guest]

Societies make decisions for the group good all the time.  There is not trash all over the US or a major pollution problem because there are emissions requirements, industrial requirements, littering laws, etc. We all pay extra for everything to cover the costs of environmental protection.  We all pay for police, government, roads, utilities, parks, laws, national defense, etc.  Even the taxes to pay for these public goods are approved by the voters, not imposed on them by above, usually.  It's very primitive to think humans don't think about the good of the group.  

 

If all players played for just "one more week" regardless of how it set up the entire game, we'd never see "big moves" or any end-game strategizing.  

 

I think these people just didn't know the power of this idol.  

[azshadowwalker]

This is a game that you get one chance of winning. It's not the real world. The repercussions are immediate and irreversible if it's you who gets sent home. In the game, I would take being 100% safe tonight with a chance to fight again tomorrow every single time. It's only 39 days you need to get through, not forever. Getting three days--one-thirteenth each time--closer would always be preferable to risking not getting to make another stand. You aren't playing for your alliance to win, just yourself. Tomorrow someone else in your alliance may go because of the decision today, but you have another chance for it not to be you, and that's all that matters. "Anyone but me," as the Greatest Survivor Ever said. You have a chance to win immunity, as mentioned above. You have a chance to work on the SI alliance. If you are the one who goes, you have a piddly jury placement and check. And, in this case, even survival means you have the baggage of an alliance member exposing every plan you make, anyway.

Speaking of Sandra, I didn't have a problem with the fish for reasons already listed. I also thought Scot was an asshole for dousing the fire, but doing it openly didn't bother me as much as Tai not having the guts to do the same and claiming to have such a pristine soul. Sandra didn't really claim to be a lover of all life. My biggest problem there was letting Christa take the fall. It was taking the tools that really pissed me off this time. Fire and fish can be replaced. The tools to get those things cannot. That's reprehensible and not part of the game, IMO.

[peachmangosteen]

It is like Jason wants to be a bully and and acts like a bully, but Scot is actually a bully and probably the kind who doesn't think he is a bully.

 

This is exactly it.

Edited April 16, 2016 by peachmangosteen

[henripootel]

Societies make decisions for the group good all the time.  There is not trash all over the US or a major pollution problem because there are emissions requirements, industrial requirements, littering laws, etc. We all pay extra for everything to cover the costs of environmental protection.

Yeah, but Winston, you're just describing the one solution we've found for collective action problems: cops.  If you set up guidelines and pay a guild of professionals to make sure people stick to them (and fine those who don't) you can ameliorate collective action problems.  It can actually be made more expensive to pollute, so people will forgo polluting.  

 

The problem is that we have no such thing in this game.  I mean we have Jeff who enforces the rules of the game (to the extent they do, but that's another story) but he doesn't make people stick to their alliances.  Far from it, he lionizes people who screw over their own friends (sometimes) as 'big move' types.  

 

Without cops, you have to police yourselves.  That doesn't work here, not really.  I mean people get pissed when they're on the jury and refuse to vote for someone who screwed them over, but that's after.  The guy on the jury is already out, and the threat of retaliation didn't stop the guy who's still in and is trying to get votes for the million.  

Edited April 17, 2016 by henripootel

[Guest]

This is a game that you get one chance of winning. It's not the real world. The repercussions are immediate and irreversible if it's you who gets sent home. In the game, I would take being 100% safe tonight with a chance to fight again tomorrow every single time. 

 

I'd play to win, every single time.  Usually that involves some risks and 'big moves'.  Not many people win on the UTR platform.  

 

Aubrey probably even knew Cydney would be their target so she really wasn't risking much, nor were Joe or Michelle or Debbie, if they forced an idol play.  They'd be in the exact same position now numbers-wise, but with the idols gone.  How can that possibly not be the better outcome?  

[KimberStormer]

So the thing that makes Survivor beautiful to me is exactly its tension between team and individual game.  You can't play alone; you can't win together.  Playing only to "live one more day" is (IMO!!!) as wrong as playing to "keep the tribe strong"; though we see both things being done, every season.  Thus I think, for example, it was right for Cirie to vote out Courtney, which weakened her tribe in favor of her own personal goals, and it was right for Parvati to use her idols on Sandra and Jerri and strengthen her alliance at the cost of leaving herself vulnerable.  But the thing is that ultimately, fundamentally, it's an individual game and you have to put yourself first.  So Parvati was right to save Jerri not because if helped the Villains per se but rather because it helped Parvati herself--in the long run, if the Heroes came out on top in that merge, she was toast guaranteed.  So, that's a roundabout way of saying there are many situations where I wouldn't take the "anyone but me" strategy, and would risk it for the apparent good of my alliance/tribe, but only because it helped me, eventually.  I've argued that Tai using his idol on Anna would have been one such moment this season.

 

But with the Super Idol it's a whole different thing.  It's not taking a risk like going to rocks, for example, is.  It's a guarantee that for someone in that alliance, they are going home; they're not risking something to help themselves, they're risking something to help the others.  Phillip Sheppard took that deal in Caramoan, accepting certain elimination for the good of Stealth R Us--noble perhaps, but most people, I think we can safely say, are not Phillip Sheppard.  And in this case you need five Phillip Sheppards, all willing to sacrifice themselves.  It's not "maybe one of you will be eliminated but maybe not", it's not even "there's a 1% chance that all of you will survive", it's a 0% chance.

 

I just think it's way too strong.  It's sort of lucky, in fact, that it's in the hands of beatable goats, because if it's someone likeable like Yul who has it, he's almost guaranteed to win.  He can even go down in history as a Survivor genius for it.  Blech, I hate this idol.

[henripootel]

I just think it's way too strong.  It's sort of lucky, in fact, that it's in the hands of beatable goats, because if it's someone likeable like Yul who has it, he's almost guaranteed to win.  He can even go down in history as a Survivor genius for it.  Blech, I hate this idol.

Agreed.  It's so strong that it pretty much changes everything, and 'strategy' becomes A) get this idol, or failing that, B) scramble to appease the person(s) who did get this idol.  You can flash up '#blindside' all you want, but you're not seeing a blindside so much as a straight-up pagonging of the group B guys.  Pretty sure they introduced the HII in order to break up pagongings, cuz it's a bit boring to watch for weeks on end when you know who's going home next.  The Super HII puts us right back to it.

 

And in this case, it's kinda 'christmas for assholes', cuz the guys who got it are being dicks about it.  No fun watching dicks succeed by being dicks, nor a winner crowned because they're slightly less of a dick than others at FTC.  

[Guest]

I totally agree with playing for your own win and hating the super idols.  But I don't understand this part-

 

It's not "maybe one of you will be eliminated but maybe not", it's not even "there's a 1% chance that all of you will survive", it's a 0% chance.

 

Say Michelle knew how the idol worked.  She's close to Julia, who's somewhat playing double agent.  I would think Julia would know who the boys were voting for.  So then for everyone but Cydney on the "no idol" side, they have a play that burns the idol AND spares themselves.  They lose an alliance mate is all.  

 

But I think Aubrey is smart enough and unemotional enough to have played that way, if her edit is right, IF she'd known how the super idol could be played.  Though it's odd the men advertised it at tribal.  The others could've put the plan together at tribal, though maybe it'd be too hard with a few whispers.  Though if they can get Julia to vote with them next week, they'll have the same chance.  

[Superpole2000]

Anyone who is still friends with Scott, Jason, or Tai after watching this season needs to have their head examined. I am really glad the Tai bandwagon is emptying out. He's not as nice and wholesome as he thinks he is.

 

I am pretty sure Aubrey broke a mirror in the past seven years because she so rarely gets things to go her way. And yet, she's still alive on this show and way off of anyone's radar.

 

I liked seeing Debbie's cockiness cost her her torch. She pushed her luck a little too far with her dictatorial way of playing.

 

But man, that Scott/Jason shit show of smugness at the vote was painful to watch! They must not have been raised properly because good parents/teachers/friends would have knocked that shit right out of them at an early age.

[plurie]

If your name isn't Cydney or Julia, the decision made by the women+Joe was clearly not in their best interest. But Julia thinks she's found a way to make it to the end with two goats, and Cydney knows she's going home if they don't sacrifice someone else (Debbie), because Julia cannot be trusted to go along with the vote split. Both Debbie and Joe are too stubbornly wed to their "alliance" to vote out one of their own or not trust the other members.

 

I see zero chance that they'll be able to flip Tai next week. There is no reason for him to leave his current alliance with the two biggest goats of the season, and two idols (or one superidol). He's clearly #3 in that alliance, and as long as he stays there, he will most likely win the whole thing. Only Julia could realistically oust him, and I don't think that's particularly likely.

[laurakaye]

At this point, with Tai blabbing nearly everything regarding the Super Idol two TC's ago, does everyone in the non-SII group understand what happens if the idols are combined?  Or are they still in the dark?  And do we know what happens if/when the pieces to the Super Idol are played?  Will two more idols be hid at camp?

 

I really dislike the whole SII aspect of this game.  I don't know if I'd feel this way if anyone else were holding the pieces besides the douchecanoe twins, but I hold out hope that somehow, those two are sent packing to Ponderosa with the idols still in their pockets.  Is there a scenario where this could happen?  Is it all up to Tai?