S06.E16: Last Day On Earth

[Iguessnot]

Some of Negan's followers are probably true believers or psychopaths like him, however, by his own admission the way he got most of them to follow him is fear.  And there are other groups that did not play by Negan's rules.  The librarians all ended up dead rather than do things Negan's way.  However, they were not as capable at surviving and killing as Rick's group is.  Negan actually touched on this without realizing the actual significance of it.  "You killed my people so I sent more of my people to kill you, and you killed them to.  Not cool."  What makes Negan think they won't kill him or more of his people the first chance they get?  Negan beats people to death with Lucille while his followers keep the others from interfering.  Glenn took out a walker with no weapons when he was tied to a chair.  Carole took out Terminus, Rick ripped out a man's throat with his teeth, etc.  So far, it seems the people Negan has encountered either fell in line with the program, or weren't capable of effectively fighting back.  Rick's group can fight back, and will.

I don't see it that way. That first group was taken out by RPG. The second and fourth groups were ambushed successfully by CDB and Maggie/Carol. The third group got picked off one by one. They didn't kill Maggie and Carol right off only because they were working on a trade. Otherwise Neegan's group has no problems with killing. It doesn't matter what our group has done before, they are surrounded and defenseless.

 

I didn't find Rick cowardly at all, but he was completely broken. Just earlier in the day he was puffing out his chest about what kind of deal he has for Neegan's group and now he may be wishing for a merciful death. Actually I was so scared that Neegan was going to make Rick choose the person to be beaten.

 

And although many of the others looked Neegan in the eye, I didn't see the bold defiance others saw. I thought they were merely observing this deadly animal in front of them while doing their best not to reveal their inner turmoil. When Neegan announced he was giving a beatdown, Abraham bravely raised up to offer himself and although he looked Neegan in the eye, there was no smart ass cutting of his eyes. He knows what he's dealing with.

 

I wished they had revealed the beating. At least I could deal with and be down with something. I know I will watch the next season, but I have no anticipation for it because the situation is so dire and hopeless and I don't see an out that's believable unless the gravel pit zombies reappear from their blackhole.

[Lyndy]

But was that strategic? I don't think Dwight shot her with that arrow *because* she was a doctor - how would he have known?

I think Dwight was just aiming at taking out one of Daryl's people to mess with Daryl and send a message. That she ended up being the doctor was coincidental.

No, you're probably right. I think it's just accidentally the thing that gives them a huge advantage. Like I'm struck by how essential she was.

[FierceCritter]

I've never done this before. But please, if you've read the comics and you know who gets it, please send me a private message and spoil me.

I don't know if it's my current non-tv-related state of mind, or having had enough anxious anticipation over Glenn's fate with the dumpster. But I just cannot spend months waiting to know the answer.

Thanks much.

Update: I have been spoiled. Thank you.

Edited April 6, 2016 by FierceCritter

[morgankobi]

If I still like a show at the season finale, I will watch the next season with, or without, a cliffhanger. 

If I'm no longer interested in a show that ends in a cliffhanger, I can just look on the internet to find the answer. There is no need to tune in to find out who shot JR. I don't even have to set a VCR or DVR anymore. 

If I'm on the fence, an end-of-season cliffhanger will likely push me away because one with a many month break is nothing but audience manipulation. That long is no longer servicing the story.

 

For purposes of this post, I'm referring to a true cliffhanger that can be answered in a word or two: Who is dead? What is behind that door? Will they fall of the cliff? etc. As opposed to: What will the group do next? How will this change the dynamic? etc. 

[AwesomO4000]

I don't think it's a big leap to say (a) all but the bottommost tier benefit from Negan's strategies in varying degrees of profit-sharing, and (b) Negan has repeatedly demonstrated that employing his tactics with complete, dispassionate ruthlessness pays off BIG - enough so that substantial numbers of his conquered populations petition to join the ranks of their conqueror.

I mean - where do you think all those Saviors came from in the first place?

 

It's not like the entire crew (and pure guesswork on my part, but I'm thinking somewhere in the 200+ range) just dropped into town en masse and started conquering shit left and right. Negan had to have assimilated them from the conquered communities - separated the wolves* from the sheep.

And I also strongly suspect the wolves in question asked to join, which gets to yet another factor: loyalty. They have rules, and consequences for breaking them - but by and large the Saviors are a voluntary army, and those are the most loyal. Maybe not to Negan personally - but definitely to his strategy and tactics, from which all benefit.

Which means as long as his tactics are successful and everybody continues to benefit, their allegiance to Negan is going to be pretty dern near absolute.

 

But the problem, I think, is the size of Negan's group right now. That's an awful lot of "wolves," and how many sheep does he have - well that he hasn't killed? The sheep have to feed themselves and the wolves. And after getting beat down and threatened enough, eventually the sheep here are either going to want to join the ranks of the wolves or they are going to rebel like the Library people did. And the serfs here don't always have the benefit of a potentially protected site. Part of their "duties" are to go out and steal/scavenge for Negan, which puts them in harm's way by coming across walkers or independent people who might be dangerous. Negan doesn't provide them protection from those kinds of things. All he cares about is getting the supplies he needs - which I think was implied in another episode, where it was explained new participants would have to steal enough supplies if they couldn't provide them themselves. As I mentioned before, eventually there isn't going to be any more supplies in the area to get.

 

How long are Negan's people going to remain loyal once the gravy train runs dry? Sure they potentially have Rick's people now... but Rick's group doesn't have much right now. It's going to take months before the group has a garden or anything that will provide food. And Rick's group has other supplies, but you can't eat those. With that large a "wolf" force, either Negan has a whole lot of communities like Hilltop (doubtful in my opinion, based on his strategy and that they never came across the Wolves or Alexandria until now) or Negan's "wolves" also have to do a bunch of leg work... and eventually once supplies get scarce, they are going to grow increasingly disgruntled and wonder why they are doing all of the work and not getting much out of it. They definitely aren't getting "protection." Look how many of them Rick's group killed before Negan finally did something. That his "soldier" group just accepts that and remains so loyal to me seems a bit far-fetched.

 

At this point the sheep have been killed, conquered or are holed up somewhere somewhat safe for the time being.  Rick's group are fighters.  Even Carol and Morgan who are tired of killing will still kill when they have to.  Negan's followers are with him because of fear, and what they can get out of it, not because they are loyal.  I wouldn't be surprised if one of his own killed Negan if they got the chance to.  Negan might make the same mistake so many others have, and meet his own waterloo, or Russian winter.

 

I agree about the loyalty - see my comments above. And another mistake Negan might make is his hubris. Some commenters here are saying that Rick deserved the comeuppance he got here, but Rick's got nothing on Negan in terms of having a big head. Negan thinks he's going to kill one of Risk's group and they are just going to go back and be good little providers? Not even Hilltop was apparently "behaving" the way he wanted, and he thinks Rick's group is going to? Oookay. It's his funeral I guess. Apparently, it's going to take a little while,* but I think Rick will have a long memory.

 

* Though in my opinion, it should happen more quickly. There are sneaky ways to do things rather than force. Poison the supplies for example. Lead a bunch of walkers to Negan's group's area somehow - especially since CDB know how to do that - and then hide behind their walls.

 

I can already tell I'm going to be really bored by the Negan storyline, because I'm going to hate watching him win for a while. His strategy shouldn't work, in my opinion, so having to watch him get away with it, ego in tact and speechifying endlessly, is going to get old really fast for me.

 

Since the Saviors cut off some of Michonne's hair is there any chance they could give haircuts to Daryl, Carl, and Rick.  Maybe Enid will cut off all of Carl's hair in retaliation for locking her in the closet.

 

But I like Carl's hair ; ) ... and to a lesser extent Daryl's. Carl should wear his hair any way he wants to, because it's not like the ZA is full of teen competition or the need to conform. Besides Carl's hair is a nice camouflage. It makes him look less threatening than he is, and that type of thing could definitely work to his advantage I think.

[Milks26]

The episode was as I expected it to be - full of redundant scenes. I would've liked to find out who died but the cliffhanger isn't a big deal...I've been watching television for a few years now.

 

I'm still psyched for S7. Maybe its because I just started watching the show a month ago after I abandoned it at the end of S3. Especially if they do as they claim and pick the story up the very second it left off in S6

[dampfire]

Actually I was so scared that Neegan was going to make Rick choose the person to be beaten.

 

Absolutely.  When Negan said, "I got an idea," I was suddenly convinced he was going to go all Sophie's Choice on Rick.  "I'm gonna let you pick, Rick.  You've got a minute.  No debate.  I want a name.  Nothing more.  And no, Rick.  You can't offer yourself up.  You've got a minute, and if you don't give me a name in that minute, two of you are going to feel the wrath of holy hell.  Then we'll start again.  If you don't give me a name in another minute...two more will feel the wrath.  And so on.  I hope I'm making myself clear, Rick.  Because your minute starts.  Now."  [sNAP TO BLACK.  END SCENE.  END EP.  END SEASON.]

 

THAT could have been the cliffhanger. 

 

Not that I'm arguing that a cliffhanger was called for.  I, like most here, would simply have liked to have seen the scene that we saw play out to its dramatic grisly conclusion.  I don't need all the manipulative #Whoisit? Bullshit TPTB are apparently hoping for over the hiatus.  If we had to be left with such a question though, I just think that Rick's [Gut-Wrenching] Choice would be far more interesting to speculate about for half a year than Negan's [somewhat Arbitrary] Choice.

[magemaud]

I found it kind of ridiculous that they were supposedly reading maps with local street names instead of highway or route numbers. Instead of "We can go North on 18 then pick up Route 3" they were saying things almost like "We can take Honeysuckle then hang a left on Bluebird" as if they were driving through a familiar residential area.

Edited April 6, 2016 by magemaud

[slade3]

But I like Carl's hair ; ) ... and to a lesser extent Daryl's. Carl should wear his hair any way he wants to, because it's not like the ZA is full of teen competition or the need to conform. Besides Carl's hair is a nice camouflage. It makes him look less threatening than he is, and that type of thing could definitely work to his advantage I think.

I really like Carl's hair, too. I would be sad if they cut it.

 

Absolutely.  When Negan said, "I got an idea," I was suddenly convinced he was going to go all Sophie's Choice on Rick.  "I'm gonna let you pick, Rick.  You've got a minute.  No debate.  I want a name.  Nothing more.  And no, Rick.  You can't offer yourself up.  You've got a minute, and if you don't give me a name in that minute, two of you are going to feel the wrath of holy hell.  Then we'll start again.  If you don't give me a name in another minute...two more will feel the wrath.  And so on.  I hope I'm making myself clear, Rick.  Because your minute starts.  Now."  [sNAP TO BLACK.  END SCENE.  END EP.  END SEASON.]

 

Some of the foilers I read weeks before the finale aired said this was going to happen and I'm so glad it didn't. How could a leader come back from that? Rick's people/family would all feel betrayed and mistrustful. Some would come to forgive him because he had been put in an impossible position, but others would not. Others would blame him for putting them in that position. And Rick could never forgive himself. That would take the story and his journey in a direction I don't think the show wants (or needs) to go in. it would have made for a terrific cliffhanger, but I think it would have ruined the storytelling more than this cliffhanger did.

[DEL901]

Yeah, I felt so bad for him. He thought it was going to be his chance to outsmart foes and be a hero and he completely failed.

 

I actually thought he expected to die.  He was going to be a hero by leading Negan's people away from CDB, but he expected to die doing it, hence the bullet recipe for Rick.

 

Also, Kirkman said in an interview that when they filmed Negan bashing in someone's brains, all of the regular cast had left the set.  Even JDM doesn't know who he killed.

[LeeMoon]

Reedus said he knows who died and I think he is the only one that is being honest with the fans. Of course they know who died, that person knows he won't be filming for long next season. Whoever that is, he/she will have to make plans to hit the iron while it's hot and get other acting gigs. The main cast has a detailed contract with AMC, they have to inform that person if his filming schedule is going to include only one or two episodes. Failing to inform the actor probably has a penalty for breaking the contract, and that is going to cost AMC money. Not a big sum, seeing as the actors don't get pay that much, but it's still money.

[Macbeth]

Actually I was so scared that Neegan was going to make Rick choose the person to be beaten.

 

But Rick would have volunteers - You have a child and a pregnant woman there.  Abraham would offer himself.  Daryl probably would.  Michonne would to save Carl. Glenn would to save Maggie.  Sasha has been suicidal -and would look for an opportunity to leave this new world order - I know I would.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Macbeth

[RainOnToosdays]

Ok, let's see what I can guess up regarding the Champ of the Apocalypse:

1. Negan wants productive workers who are docile, or at least controllable; strong enough to work, but no strong enough to give him problems.
2. This immediately lets family members off the hook (Glenn/Maggie, and Rick/Carl - maybe Rick/Carl/Michonne even, depending upon how observant Negan is).  By leaving families intact for the present, Negan always has leverage to maintain control over any one of them by threatening their loved one(s).
3. Probably lets Aaron, Rosita, Sasha and Eugene off the hook as well.  All three came across as nonconfrontational - especially Eugene - and all appear strong enough to work without appearing strong enough to cause any immediate problems.

 

Which leaves us:

1. Daryl: wounded enough at present not to kick up much of a fuss, but will heal up eventually.
2. Abraham: strong as an ox, and just did his level best to stare down this Negan motherdicker....

 

Any guesses who my money's on...?

Taking a response over to the new thread TWD Season 7 Anticipation - Evil Cliffhanger from Hell

[Johnny Dollar]

I just watched the episode after debating whether to skip it all together.  Disappointing as expected.  What a cop-out ending.  At this point, I don't care who Negan killed.  By the time next season rolls around, I will care even less.  Particularly if they consider this episode to be the end of one story arc, and the beginning of the Negan story line.  Are they going to do some kind of a flash forward next year, making the identity of the victim even less meaningful?

 

Nicotero was on Entertainment Weekly radio this morning.  He said that the actors don't know who gets killed, and that the final scene was shot only with JDM, and none of the other actors present on set.  Then why was everyone talking about how upsetting the final script was if they don't even know the result?  I have to wonder if the show runners even know how it's going to turn out yet.  Maybe they'll use it as a negotiating tactic for anyone whose contract is up for renewal.  FWIW, my money is on Abraham, what with his planning for the future and all.

 

Other thoughts:

• Do the Saviors have signs up that say "Only Psychopaths Need Apply"?  Seriously, what's the likelihood that so many crazy people would find each other?
• Negan's real secret to success must be the huge stash of protein powder and free weights that he found somewhere.  Every one of his crew looked like they answered an audition looking for muscled up biker gang types.  You'd think after a few years in the ZA, that they would start to lose some muscle mass.
• If all Negan wants is people's shit, why not overrun the Hilltop Community, kill everyone and take their shit?  And why not send a crew of guys over to Alexandria to do the same, while it's being defended by a priest and some house fraus?  He seems to have an abundance of extra guys that he could spare.
• Both Morgan and Random Savior Dude have some mad tracking skills in the way they were able to find Carol, with no clue what direction she was going in.  And the timing with RSD finding Carol and then Morgan coming upon them just as he was about to kill Carol was impeccable.
• Hey Carol.  You don't have to wait for someone to kill you if you are tired of living in this world.  You do have a gun you know.
• I don't read the comics, so I don't know who that group is that found Morgan and Carol, but it looked like some kind of bizarre guardian angel sequence from a cheesy Christian movie.  I was half expecting Kurt Cameron to come riding up on a white steed.
• Just a minor miscalculation on Rick's part of the strength of the enemy.  Newsflash Rick!  You're not as hot shit as you think.
• Both new groups - the Saviors and the weird angels - have the potential to be much more entertaining and interesting than Rick's sorry ass crew.  That could be a problem for this show as they've mined every possible storyline and angle with the current crop and risk repeating themselves.

[flutist4fun]

I don't want Maggie to die. But the possibilities for Glenn's character development, if she goes, are really...kind of...awesome.

[catrox14]

 

I do wonder what/who they're going to put on the Season 7 poster. I don't know who they're gonna put on the trailer either.

Based on that Negan said, (If anyone moves, take the kids other eye & feed it to his father) he didn't kill Carl or Rick. So they can put Carl, Rick, Morgan, Carol, the new people & their horse on the trailer (as well as the Saviors & Negan.) AMC, Gimple, & Kirkman are such idiots.

 

Taking reply to s7 thread

[Eyes High]

And although many of the others looked Neegan in the eye, I didn't see the bold defiance others saw. I thought they were merely observing this deadly animal in front of them while doing their best not to reveal their inner turmoil. When Neegan announced he was giving a beatdown, Abraham bravely raised up to offer himself and although he looked Neegan in the eye, there was no smart ass cutting of his eyes. He knows what he's dealing with.

 

I'm surprised Abraham didn't mouth off at Negan to attempt to provoke him into killing him to spare the others. It seems like the sort of thing Abraham would do.

[ghoulina]

Lori - Hell no, just bitch whine and complain and possibly fell on Abe's penis.

 

Why? Just because he's a random dude? Nothing I saw ever showed Lori to be a loose woman who slept with every dude she saw. Shane was super close with their family before the fall. They probably both wanted to sleep together for comfort. Also, it's not unheard of for women in dire situations to use sex as a way to get an alpha male to protect her and her child. I don't think this was just about sex for her. And when Rick came back, there was no sign of her wanting to bed anyone else but her husband. 

 

Hershel - Yes as a moral compass only.

 

Hershel had much more uses than just being the voice of reason. He was a vet, who had more medical knowledge than most anyone else. He was also a farmer and knew more than most of them about growing food. 

[lulee]

I keep thinking of the Knights of Tron. I think their introduction parallels Michonne's - character(s) appear out of nowhere and rescue one of our gang (Andrea/ Carol) from a desperate situation. I think the KoT will be trustworthy and an important ally just like Michonne became.

Edited April 6, 2016 by lulee

[ShadowSixx]

But I like Carl's hair ; ) ... and to a lesser extent Daryl's. Carl should wear his hair any way he wants to, because it's not like the ZA is full of teen competition or the need to conform. Besides Carl's hair is a nice camouflage. It makes him look less threatening than he is, and that type of thing could definitely work to his advantage I think.

 

I like Carl's hair as well, it looks washed and cleaned. If his hair looked like a rat's nest and unwashed like Daryl's then I agree it should be cut. Like Carol, Carl has the apperance that he's not threatening when he actually is. So his look really does work in his favor. 

[catcory]

Well I liked the finale, for me I never wanted to see who got killed but I do know that someone died and it will totally suck that I have to wait until October to find out who. But I have a feeling that we will find out who before the season opener, because with the advent of the internet nothing is ever a real secret.

My question is what does Alexandria have to give Negan and his thugs, a few guns and some food. The food they have is barely enough to feed the people there.

Negan is nothing but a big bully and I still don't like him.

No matter what happens Rick will still feel guilty and blame himself for this, that is just the way he is. We all knew this would happen to him. He is totally lose confidence in himself.

[ghoulina]

I actually thought he expected to die.  He was going to be a hero by leading Negan's people away from CDB, but he expected to die doing it, hence the bullet recipe for Rick.

 

Yes, I saw it that way as well - Eugene was sacrificing himself. I was very sad and proud in that moment. But then I got annoyed. I was like, "Eugene may be learning as far as killing goes, but he's smart and knows things that NO ONE else knows. Send Aaron. I like Aaron. But there's nothing special about him. Nothing he does that someone else couldn't do. Keep the bullet maker!"

[Boofish]

My mind always go back to this - what if Rick had been there since the beginning? I wonder what the show would be if Rick had not been in a coma for the first 3 or so months (or however long it was in the hospital) By the time he came to most resources had been depleted, a good portion of the population was dead, the cities were overrun and everyone was scattered trying to pick over anything left. I know the Governor, Negan et al. was organized with guns, tanks, supplies etc. But they were there day 1. That gives you time to prep, plan, gather supplies etc. This is why I don't think Rick is a crappy leader. For the first few weeks all he knew was what he was told. Not sure if he would have had people in an open camp, no walls, no guns had he been there. He has to think on his feet in just about every situation and given their resources and numbers. I don't think he has done too bad a job keeping them alive considering.

[Jel]

Maybe none of the actors know who was killed by Negan because the writers haven't decided yet. And they are monitoring fan predictions and reactions to speculation before they make their final decision.

[Boofish]

I'm very curious as to how many people will tune in next season. I will. I've invested too much time & emotion in this show.

The acting was amazing in this episode. From Rick talking to Maggie to Abraham & Eugene's goodbye to Glenn's outburst when Negan was in front of Maggie. Everytime they were confronted by another roadblock, I felt more & more dread in the pit of my stomach.

I mentioned this on another website- and it's probably an unpopular opinion here too. But on Sunday I loved JDM as Negan. But the more I thought about it, I would have hated anyone that came out of that RV & did what he did. And I hate him.

JDM is a great actor- but now I just don't like him as Negan. I have read the compendiums- so maybe I'm my expectations are just too high. But I just thought Negan would've been bigger & more threatening. If I didn't know who he was, I may not have feared him as much.

I was soooooo happy the horse didn't get torn apart!! Horses don't have the best luck on this show.

I do wonder what/who they're going to put on the Season 7 poster. I don't know who they're gonna put on the trailer either.

Based on that Negan said, (If anyone moves, take the kids other eye & feed it to his father) he didn't kill Carl or Rick. So they can put Carl, Rick, Morgan, Carol, the new people & their horse on the trailer (as well as the Saviors & Negan.) AMC, Gimple, & Kirkman are such idiots.

Like you, I enjoyed the show and didn't mind the cliffhanger. I will be back next season

[catcory]

I always laugh at the people who say they will not return to the show for this reason or that reason, people will be back.

[Eln5]

Maybe none of the actors know who was killed by Negan because the writers haven't decided yet. And they are monitoring fan predictions and reactions to speculation before they make their final decision.

I wish I could give the writer's that kind of credit, and I hope they have some kind of plan. But I have such a bad feeling that they are just blindly following the comics and all of this speculation is going to be for nothing, since they will just do what the comics did. I think Kirkman's had an iron grip on this season. I hope I'm wrong and they surprise us, but I'm already worried.

[AngelaHunter]

Also, it's not unheard of for women in dire situations to use sex as a way to get an alpha male to protect her and her child.

 

Yes. Not only not unheard of, but common/common sense. Many women in occupied countries in WWII took up with German soldiers or officers, not only for food but for protection from other soldiers. I would never judge them. Much as I disliked Lori for other reasons, I think what she did (and really, what did she do that was "bad"? She thought Rick was dead.) I saw nothing wrong with her getting together with Shane. It made sense.

 

I'm pretty sure I'd do the same thing if I were alone in an apolcalypse and had a child to feed and protect.

 

 

[The Mighty Peanut]

Someone on Facebook left this comment and while it doesn't say anything new, I thought it summed things up pretty well:

 

"This is a show where Carl was almost raped by a grown man, and that rape was stopped by Rick tearing out a man's throat with his teeth. That is the bar for me in this show when it comes to dark content, and I was expecting something equally or more dark in the finale. You know, because the producers and actors made it out that way. So there were millions of people on an emotional edge, with each scene causing more and more tension. And then there was no payoff off for all of that."

Edited April 6, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[ghoulina]

Maybe none of the actors know who was killed by Negan because the writers haven't decided yet. And they are monitoring fan predictions and reactions to speculation before they make their final decision.

 

Dear God, I hope not. The writers should be compelled to write a good story, period. They should be handcuffed to the comic, nor should they be trying to appease viewers. If it's good, viewers will be appeased anyhow.

[Boofish]

Someone on Facebook left this comment and while it doesn't say anything new, I thought it summed things up pretty well:

 

"This is a show where Carl was almost raped by a grown man, and that rape was stopped by Rick tearing out a man's throat with his teeth. That is the bar for me in this show when it comes to dark content, and I was expecting something equally or more dark in the finale. You know, because the producers and actors made it out that way. So there were millions of people on an emotional edge, with each scene causing more and more tension. And then there was no payoff off for all of that."

The payoff for me is just knowing for a fact someone was beat to death. I don't know who but I can wait. It doesn't have to be Rick, Carl, Michonne, Glen or Daryl for me to care. The situation they are in and the fact that they are powerless to stop it breaks my heart. He could be beating Tobin to death and I would still care. It's not so much the victim on this show sometimes but the how for me. Didn't like Lori's character but I be dog on if I wasn't weeping for her like it was real!

[catcory]

I am sure there will be tons of theories out there, all these people analyzing the last few minutes to see if they can figure it out. This is going to be the longest 6 months of my life. BOO!!!

[kia112]

Yes. Not only not unheard of, but common/common sense. Many women in occupied countries in WWII took up with German soldiers or officers, not only for food but for protection from other soldiers. I would never judge them. Much as I disliked Lori for other reasons, I think what she did (and really, what did she do that was "bad"? She thought Rick was dead.) I saw nothing wrong with her getting together with Shane. It made sense.

 

I'm pretty sure I'd do the same thing if I were alone in an apolcalypse and had a child to feed and protect.

 

Replying in the relationships thread

[Mu Shu]

Look, I'm supposed to be working but I had to throw this in because I've been in deep thought about it. First of all I always love when AL shows Rick crumbling under pressure. His breakdown over Lori left me in stunned silence, becuase I've never seen a man on tv or movies cry like that. And it was AWESOME. Well now we have this scene and I've loved the point by point explanations of it. I want to add a little something though.

I think Rick really was breaking but I also think that it was strategic breaking. Negan wanted to punish HIM. He didn't care about the others - they are just new slaves. But he was going to make Rick pay for his actions. It was the first thing he said. I think if Rick stared him down like Carl, Michonne and Abe he would have killed every last one of them. He dared Rick to defy him. Just like Joe and the Claimers, Rick was told that his punishment would be to watch the people he loves killed in front of him FIRST. Negan wanted a show of bravado. Rick instead showed him his belly. Why do I think that was calculation? Because in the moment of your death, when you are actually with the people closest to your heart, you look at them. You die with their image in you retinas. That's instinct. That is natural. But notice Rick looked at the ground, he never once looked at Michonne, never once at Carl. He didn't want Negan to know which death would hurt him the most. That was strategy - to make Negan pick rather than showing him who to choose. To the bitter end Rick protected who he could the only way he could.

Which leads me to who I think Negan chose. I think he chose Glenn. The reason is because Negan is a calculating sadist. He knows that Carl's death would hurt Rick the most but there is wisdom in keeping Carl alive. For starters, if he killed the child, NONE of the adults would ever comply and he would lose the whole crop. And knowing that he is going to keep Rick breathing in order to torture him, he knows that he will be most tortured by the POSSIBILITY of harm to Carl. If Carl died, Rick would most likely simply be suicidal and utterly useless and impervious to threats. So knowing that, my guess is that Negan went for the most impact. He needed to SEE somebody devastated by the death of a loved one - not just a friend. Glenn's outburst showed him that Maggie was his woman and most likely this love is reciprocal. He was with three separate couples but he did not know that because our awesome CDB played the poker game to the last card. So my guess is that he wanted to hear somebody really scream and really cry and the best bet would be Maggie for Glenn. Not a spoiler, just my guess.

You make an excellent point. Plus, Rick probably took a page from Carol's book in playing possum.

[anarchyangel84]

Maybe none of the actors know who was killed by Negan because the writers haven't decided yet. And they are monitoring fan predictions and reactions to speculation before they make their final decision.

Chandler Riggs, Norman Reedus, Greg Nicotero, as well as others said that they DON'T know who it is yet.

Then Andrew Lincoln went & said that they DO know.

If I was them & I knew who it was, I'd say that I have no idea. I wouldn't want people to be constantly asking me who Negan killed for the next 6-7 months. It would just be easier to play dumb.

[flutist4fun]

The payoff for me is just knowing for a fact someone was beat to death. I don't know who but I can wait. It doesn't have to be Rick, Carl, Michonne, Glen or Daryl for me to care. The situation they are in and the fact that they are powerless to stop it breaks my heart.

I agree with this (though I wouldn't EXACTLY call it a payoff, sob). I'm horrified by the murder, and the sadism, and scared and sad about the long-term impact on the group, more so than for almost any other death on the show. Who it was, is secondary, for now. Though I did have a moment, when Negan said he was going to kill someone, where I thought, Damn! Why couldn't they have brought Spencer along!

[North of Eden]

Just watched now...man that was tense..you could feel Rick's desperation as all avenues were being closed off literally and figuratively.

 

As far as the death..of course it has to be Aaron. He might have well been wearing a Red Shirt. He's the only one that is expendable.

 

One thing I don't get is why Negan needs the group to give them stuff....based on the amount of his crew it looks like it wouldn't take much to storm the Alexandria Safe Zone and take whatever he wants.

Edited April 7, 2016 by North of Eden

[NorthstarATL]

Just watched now...man that was tense..you could feel Rick's desperation as all avenues were being closed off literally and figuratively.

 

As far as the death..of course it has to be Aaron. He might have well been wearing a Red Shirt. He's the only one that is expendable.

 

One thing I don't get is why Negan needs the group to give them stuff....based on the amount of his crew it looks like it wouldn't take much to storm the Alexandria Safe Zone and take whatever he wants.

And then what? No. Someone like Negan needs people who will not only provide a one-time haul, but will actually produce for him.  And the larger his group gets the more it needs laborers who will supply the ever-growing bullies.

[Sighed I]

Took me a few days to watch the finale a second time, but now, knowing ahead of time I would be left hanging, it made it easier to focus on the rest of the episode. I have to admit I enjoyed it, if that's the right word, given its emotional intensity, much more the second time around.

 

I really have to give props to the cast. Everyone acted their asses off. AL's performance was amazing and very much front and center in my first viewing. It was on the rewatch where I noticed the nuances of everyone's performance, particularly among the RV crew, their dread growing as their options shrank until, to their horror, they found themselves with nowhere to go, neck-deep up shit creek with their mouths wide open (a repulsive visual, Abraham, yet so apropos).

 

Josh McDermitt and especially Michael Cudlitz were particular standouts. The look on Eugene's face the moment he decides to sacrifice himself to play decoy for the group (just before the "rust bucket" comment), his final words with Abraham and their hug, the deep breath and little smile just before he drives off.

 

I never thought I'd put "subtle" and "Abraham" together in one sentence, but I loved how Abe served as a kind of barometer for the group's situation. You can see how rattled Rick's getting, but he still keeps trying to rally the troops even as his control slowly slips away and fear takes over. Abe is a loyal, brave soldier all the way to the end, but he sees the situation for what it is, maybe even before Rick does. It's he who gives Rick a reality check when there is no more back to go to.

 

I find Michael Cudlitz attractive, but have never been attracted to Abraham, largely because I found him crude and the neon orange hair distractingly cartoony (though I do appreciate a man who can rock a handlebar mustache, as not many can ;). I've warmed up to him a lot this half season, but in the finale I finally got why Sasha fell for him. His bravery and courage was incredibly attractive. When the group realized they were done for, completely surrounded, he did not waver. As another poster noted upthread, it wasn't a "I ain't afraid of you; I spit in the face of danger" kind of bravado. His eyes were wide open. He knew they were in deep fucking shit. But he held it together, and I found myself looking to him for strength as they knelt, defeated, in a pathetic row.

 

There are a lot of other things I appreciated much more the second time around, but since I spent so much time squeeing over Abraham and Eugene (I never thought I'd see the day I'd be writing these words), I'll stop here for now.

 

I'm still not happy about the cliffhanger, for reasons I and others have already stated. Upon reflection, though, I acknowledge it is also in no small part because I don't want to be spoiled. By structuring the story in this way, given the intensity of the fandom, the nature of the internet and the assholes which populate it, TPTB have all but guaranteed I will be spoiled in some fashion come October, whether I like it or not. Their whole rationale for the cliffhanger revolves around providing the audience with a particular "experience". If I end up getting spoiled, I'm not likely to have the experience I want, and that sucks. That makes it hard to put my trust in them. But I will try.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sighed I

[slade3]

I find Michael Cudlitz attractive, but have never been attracted to Abraham, largely because I found him crude and the neon orange hair distractingly cartoony (though I do appreciate a man who can rock a handlebar mustache, as not many can ;). I've warmed up to him a lot this half season, but in the finale I finally got why Sasha fell for him. His bravery and courage was incredibly attractive. When the group realized they were done for, completely surrounded, he did not waver. As another poster noted upthread, it wasn't a "I ain't afraid of you; I spit in the face of danger" kind of bravado. His eyes were wide open. He knew they were in deep fucking shit. But he held it together, and I found myself looking to him for strength as they knelt, defeated, in a pathetic row.

 

Thanks for this entire post. I watched the finale, but still haven't watched the last 5 - 6 minutes. And though your post makes me want to watch the finale again, with the full ending, I'm not sure I'm ready. I was crushed by the gang's fear and horror. I was very aware of Abraham's bravery, and I loved what I saw of Carl and Michonne in that scene with Negan. But Rick, Sasha and Glenn crushed me and I don't know that I want to watch again. Kudos to all of them.

 

Like you, I think Michael Cudlitz is attractive. I don't like Abe for the reasons you mention. The hair really bothers me, but it's his crudeness that bothers me more. (I like a handlebar mustache, but only with dark hair.) However, I loved his scene with Rick in East, and the way he tried to make Rick feel better. And I was impressed by him in the finale.

 

I hated the cliffhanger for various storytelling reasons, but I've started to hate it more because it has taken so much away from the actors' performances.

[callmebetty]

I don't know what other thread to put this in so here goes: While Norman Reedus' new show might be entertaining. I would watch the shit out of a show that starred Michael Cudlitz and Josh McDermott driving around in an RV and having adventures talking to regular people. I would even volunteer to clean said RV, if I could just be there for it in all its unedited glory. Thank you for your time.

[lulee]

I'm still not happy about the cliffhanger, for reasons I and others have already stated. Upon reflection, though, I acknowledge it is also in no small part because I don't want to be spoiled. By structuring the story in this way, given the intensity of the fandom, the nature of the internet and the assholes which populate it, TPTB have all but guaranteed I will be spoiled in some fashion come October, whether I like it or not. Their whole rationale for the cliffhanger revolves around providing the audience with a particular "experience". If I end up getting spoiled, I'm not likely to have the experience I want, and that sucks. That makes it hard to put my trust in them. But I will try.

That's what I fear too. I try to avoid spoilers, but a few days before the finale, I was looking at TVGuide.com and saw a link to another TVGuide article that was entitled something like, "About that rumored cliffhanger on The Walking Dead" and I didn't even click on the link but knew that that meant it was very very likely that there would be a cliffhanger ending. So that sort of mentally prepared me for the final scene, but I don't want to stumble across something - on a non-spoiler site -  in July - or sooner - that says, "Actor X has filmed his/her death scene." A cliffhanger only works if the viewer gets to see the resolution, and I don't know that Gimple should have decided not to do one because of social media and it's just reality today, but it's still frustrating.

[ghoulina]

I don't know what other thread to put this in so here goes: While Norman Reedus' new show might be entertaining. I would watch the shit out of a show that starred Michael Cudlitz and Josh McDermott driving around in an RV and having adventures talking to regular people. I would even volunteer to clean said RV, if I could just be there for it in all its unedited glory. Thank you for your time.

 

I totally would as well. Those two are adorable as hell together. And while Abe is a bit OTT for me, Cudlitz is very handsome, from where I'm sitting. 

[Sighed I]

Thanks for this entire post. I watched the finale, but still haven't watched the last 5 - 6 minutes. And though your post makes me want to watch the finale again, with the full ending, I'm not sure I'm ready. I was crushed by the gang's fear and horror. I was very aware of Abraham's bravery, and I loved what I saw of Carl and Michonne in that scene with Negan. But Rick, Sasha and Glenn crushed me and I don't know that I want to watch again. Kudos to all of them.

 

Like you, I think Michael Cudlitz is attractive. I don't like Abe for the reasons you mention. The hair really bothers me, but it's his crudeness that bothers me more. (I like a handlebar mustache, but only with dark hair.) However, I loved his scene with Rick in East, and the way he tried to make Rick feel better. And I was impressed by him in the finale.

I would encourage you to watch it again (and in full if you can, heart-wrenching as it is), but don't do it until you're ready. I needed time to stew, vent and commiserate, and still more time to process and reflect after that before I was ready. I'm glad I waited, because I really would not have been able to appreciate how great so much of the episode truly was, most especially the actors' performances. I was with them this time, I felt their pain and fear, and it was heartbreaking. When it was over I thought, this is why I love this show.

 

 

I hated the cliffhanger for various storytelling reasons, but I've started to hate it more because it has taken so much away from the actors' performances.

I couldn't agree more.

That's what I fear too. I try to avoid spoilers, but a few days before the finale, I was looking at TVGuide.com and saw a link to another TVGuide article that was entitled something like, "About that rumored cliffhanger on The Walking Dead" and I didn't even click on the link but knew that that meant it was very very likely that there would be a cliffhanger ending. So that sort of mentally prepared me for the final scene, but I don't want to stumble across something - on a non-spoiler site -  in July - or sooner - that says, "Actor X has filmed his/her death scene." A cliffhanger only works if the viewer gets to see the resolution, and I don't know that Gimple should have decided not to do one because of social media and it's just reality today, but it's still frustrating.

Yes. Once the first big spoiler hits, it's going to get exponentially worse almost immediately. That's to be expected come, say mid-late August or September, but there's a good chance this time around it's going to start as soon as shooting starts, or even before. This fan base is relentless, and taking into account AMC's notorious stinginess, I just don't think they're going to be able to keep a lid on it.

 

I agree the reality of social media shouldn't be the deciding factor in Gimple's choice. I'm just not sure he fully realized how  stratospherically high he set that bar when he decided this was the best creative choice amongst all the available options.

I don't know what other thread to put this in so here goes: While Norman Reedus' new show might be entertaining. I would watch the shit out of a show that starred Michael Cudlitz and Josh McDermott driving around in an RV and having adventures talking to regular people. I would even volunteer to clean said RV, if I could just be there for it in all its unedited glory. Thank you for your time.

I'm with you. Michael and Josh have great chemistry on and off screen; their behind the scenes clips on TTD, especially this last one, were great. In one segment Josh said something about the work on the episode and ended it with "I love this job" (to which Michael concurred) and I got this huge smile on my face. This cast is so dedicated, and in Josh and Michael's case, their almost childlike enthusiasm is hugely appealing.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Sighed I

[catcory]

I concur about seeing the episode more than once, when I first saw it I was like OMG what just happened and I really did not focus on the cast. The second time I saw it I was seeing it through their eyes and man did they bring it, especially Andy Lincoln, you really could feel his fear and despair with every roadblock and the last 10 minutes is just heart stopping for me. You can see everything from their POV. I was in tears for them, damn I was as scared as they were. At least for me Andy Lincoln really was the true star of this episode, he was amazing. He went from being so happy in the morning to complete despair at the end of the day.

[LadyArcadia]

I just watched the episode after debating whether to skip it all together.  Disappointing as expected.  What a cop-out ending.  At this point, I don't 

Other thoughts:

• Do the Saviors have signs up that say "Only Psychopaths Need Apply"?  Seriously, what's the likelihood that so many crazy people would find each other?

 

I would join Negan's group and I'm a full on, obnoxious bleeding heart liberal.  In fact, I'm an outright socialist. (maybe that does make me crazy after all) I believe we should all take care of each other; particularly the sick, children, and elderly. I believe it's our duty as humans to take care of each other...

 

..and I'd join Negan's group in a heartbeat.

 

It's a kill or be killed world and while I would hold out hope that humanity still lives, I'd join the biggest, baddest group out there. The promise of protection, food, and not dying would be too great to not join.  Sign me up.

[Sighed I]

 

Look, I'm supposed to be working but I had to throw this in because I've been in deep thought about it.  First of all I always love when AL shows Rick crumbling under pressure.  His breakdown over Lori left me in stunned silence, becuase I've never seen a man on tv or movies cry like that.  And it was AWESOME.  Well now we have this scene and I've loved the point by point explanations of it.  I want to add a little something though.

    

    I think Rick really was breaking but I also think that it was strategic breaking.  Negan wanted to punish HIM.  He didn't care about the others - they are just new slaves.  But he was going to make Rick pay for his actions.  It was the first thing he said.  I think if Rick stared him down like Carl, Michonne and Abe he would have killed every last one of them.  He dared Rick to defy him.  Just like Joe and the Claimers, Rick was told that his punishment would be to watch the people he loves killed in front of him FIRST.  Negan wanted a show of bravado.  Rick instead showed him his belly.  Why do I think that was calculation?  Because in the moment of your death, when you are actually with the people closest to your heart, you look at them.  You die with their image in you retinas.  That's instinct.  That is natural.  But notice Rick looked at the ground, he never once looked at Michonne, never once at Carl.  He didn't want Negan to know which death would hurt him the most.  That was strategy - to make Negan pick rather than showing him who to choose.  To the bitter end Rick protected who he could the only way he could.

    

    Which leads me to who I think Negan chose.  I think he chose Glenn.  The reason is because Negan is a calculating sadist.  He knows that Carl's death would hurt Rick the most but there is wisdom in keeping Carl alive.  For starters, if he killed the child, NONE of the adults would ever comply and he would lose the whole crop.  And knowing that he is going to keep Rick breathing in order to torture him, he knows that he will be most tortured by the POSSIBILITY of harm to Carl.  If Carl died, Rick would most likely simply be suicidal and utterly useless and impervious to threats.  So knowing that, my guess is that Negan went for the most impact.  He needed to SEE somebody devastated by the death of a loved one - not just a friend.  Glenn's outburst showed him that Maggie was his woman and most likely this love is reciprocal.  He was with three separate couples but he did not know that because our awesome CDB played the poker game to the last card.  So my guess is that he wanted to hear somebody really scream and really cry and the best bet would be Maggie for Glenn.  Not a spoiler, just my guess.

Taking this to the Season 7 Cliffhanger from Hell thread.

[jackjill89]

I just watched the ending again, and holy crap it really was devastating. I want to watch the entire episode again. I don't think it matters who is dead. If they hadn't played up the "who gets Lucille'd" angle incessantly and just keep talking "Negan, Negan, Negan" I think the episode would have been appreciated more for the absolute comeuppance it was to Rick & Co.

 

However, one thing that really struck me  -- and forgive me if this has already been addressed -- was that here they are, in the woods, looked like at least 100 people, all whistling the Negan death knell song, floodlights, and there isn't one walker? WTF happened to all the zombies on this show? They didn't all die in the Alexandria pond. Also, where do all these Saviors live? Like others, I find it hard to believe Aaron didn't run into them on a recruiting trip. Do they have a few camps? 

[kelslamu]

So, did anyone else hear Negan say pee pee pants?  Really, dude?

[Mattipoo]

I actually really like JDM as Negan. His portrayal reminds me a little of the character he played in "Watchmen" which was also a bad guy with lots of charm and charisma. Speaking of which, I still cannot get over how much he resembles Javier Bardem! Aren't they like carbon copies of each other? I swear I wouldn't be able to tell them apart if they were in a lineup.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Mattipoo