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Tara Ariano

S02.E16: Chapter Thirty-Eight

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Okay, I'm way too old to use the term "all the feels," but that's exactly what this episode gave me. I aww-ed out loud so many times tonight I'd have to rewatch it to list them all. But I can tell you first and second place.

 

Second is Rogelio re-creating the Villanueva house for Jane's wedding. I choked up when Jane did.

 

And first and foremost is Petra, pretty much from beginning to end this evening. Sticking up for Jane, believing her awful mother, buying the house so Jane and Michael could get it.

 

I tell you, she is killing me; she is becoming such a nuanced character. She makes me laugh, she breaks my heart. Brava to Yael Grobglas--and to the writers and show for using her so well.

Edited by kirinan
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Great episode. I love Petra so so so much.

 

But yeah, Michael is so dead. There is no way they're getting married AND moving out. I mean, man that will be a dark turn for the show. I'm not sure how that will work for it. And I don't want Brett to go as he's excellent(will he have a look alike cousin who comes onto the show?) But I'll be shocked if Michael survives.

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Petra! Do not listen to your awful mom! She has no idea what she is talking about, you are a much better person than she is. Finding Jane and Michael the house was so sweet I cannot deal with it. She is just killing me. 

 

I can totally understand Rogelio wanting to throw Jane a big wedding party. Its like when he bought her a fancy car. He missed out on so much of Janes life, and this is how he is making up for it. I think what they ended up with was a nice compromise. I am just so glad the kidnapping plot is done, and Rogelio is able to be with everything else again. I love him and Jane, and I am glad that he and Xo are getting to a better point. I am still hoping they can make it work, even though that is very unlikely. 

 

All of this pre wedded bliss, combined with Michael working this case with Rafael, makes it look like things might go badly for Michael. Maybe he will just be in a coma? Anything but real death! 

Edited by tennisgurl
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Jane's such a neurotic worrier that was kind of surprised she didn't immediately think about postpartum depression when observing Petra.  It was my first thought from her demeanour.

 

Maybe it was the hair, but the actress playing the young Alba reminded me a bit of Jane in some of the shots.

 

It's a mark of the quality of storytelling here that at no time during the episode did I think "wait, Jane and Michael can't move that far away from the rest of the cast; it would impede storytelling".  Though seriously, I found the attitude toward Rafael's offer to pay a bit unsatisfying.  I get that for Michael it's a bit awkward, but Rafael is Mateo's dad and by law Jane would be entitled to significant child support.  I also thought it was slightly implausible that Jane would be so fine with moving that far away from her family -- even apart from how little sense that makes, frankly, given that they have a young baby and close proximity to so many relatives would be a huge advantage.  I know from comparing my own experience (raised fairly distant from most of the extended family) versus those of my cousins and their children who were a lot more closely knit.

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This is the most brilliantly produced show on tv. Season one was great, but this season is taking it to a whole new level

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I loved this episode!

 

So much "awww's". Mateo crawling, Jane and Michael's house hunting, Rogelio building a replica of the house. Most of all Petra, her buying the house for them and especially her telling off selfish Rafael to get over it and let them buy which house they wanted.

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This was great.

 

Ok, so I know that Rafael is worried about the commute, but...45 minutes away? I mean, I was expecting it to be, like, an hour and a half or something. I am glad Rafael and Jane were talking it out, though. He does have to be considered in this, because of Mateo. I do appreciate his concerns as well. But at least they talked it out like reasonable adults, and Jane's right. Michael still has work in Miami, so he has to commute during the week anyway. And Jane has her own family there, plus school and work. So it really could have been worse.

 

I really want to see someone else hold Mateo that isn't Jane. Or to really interact with Mateo. We've seen very little with Rafael, who should get more interactions, and I would imagine Xo and Alba would be taking care of Mateo, but there's also Rogelio and Michael, who have only been shown to interact with Mateo once or twice. 

 

Petra was great. I've really grown to like her this season. I can see why Jane might not have jumped to post partum. She never veered into that territory, and maybe she was aware of it, but maybe she never had to do that research after Mateo was born. After all, Jane has a family who's been very supportive and helpful, and Jane never was depressed or feeling that way. Also, Petra standing up for Jane to Rafael? LOVE IT. That was epic and so needed. Someone other than Jane needed to tell him off. 

 

Rogelio's great, and I can see why he's overcompensating with the wedding for Jane. I just think him and Jane need to have more talks. Jane gets stuck in her bubble with Mateo and her mom and grandmother sometimes that her father gets left out.

 

I don't want anything to happen to Michael. But if something does happen, at least just leave him in a coma. You can leave him in a coma for half of next season, if you must! Just don't kill him off! Brett Dier is too good to let go of. I also don't want a faked death because that's too much of a cop out...but if it goes that way, just let the audience in on it right away. 

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Aw, Petra... don't believe your evil mother!

 

Did anyone else have Wonderfalls flashbacks during this episode?

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Petra is amazing. Loved that she bought the house, but boo to her mom for furthering her postpartum depression. Loved her for sticking up for Jane- their bonding scenes are so good.

Please don't let Michael die. Jane can't be allowed to be this happy, right? Raph's brother is definitely bad news. I just don't want to give up this great show if they go that depressing route.

Mateo cruising was so cute. I really miss that age. I don't understand why Jabe would wheel him up and die the hotel hall when people are sleeping. Have some courtesy!

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Nicest detail in a show that's very attentive to detail: the way the lighting was just slightly off on that last shot of the porch - which of course was not actually their porch (though certainly was the same porch set they always shoot on).

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I love this show so much. I love so many things about it. This was a terrific episode.

 

It's a small thing, but I love how Rogelio's friendship with Charo is genuine-- she's going to play a song, she's not "on" all the time, he is brutally honest and also vulnerable in front of her. I expected it to be a purely for show kind of thing, but it wasn't.

 

I love how everybody compromises, and they work together like adults even when it hurts (like Michael and Rafael working together re his brother, or Xo and Ro coping with their break up). You can have drama without being petty.

 

I love how they somehow made me love Petra, not just as a character to love to hate, but as a character I have genuine affection for.

 

I love how the show is bilingual and makes no apologies.

 

I actually feel heartbroken about Jane moving out of Abuela's house. I realize it makes sense but I love them together. I also love Jane and Petra. It's great how this show manages to make so many different characters magical together. And they can't kill Michael! We haven't seen him and Rogelio bro-out together again since Jane and Michael got back together!

 

And I love how the show is unabashedly pro female sexuality, at any age and without reducing the participants to objects. Sexuality is portrayed as positive, important, and without in any way distracting from the rest of life. THREE DIMENSIONAL FEMALE CHARACTERS. I have to pinch myself to make sure I'm not dreaming.

 

And the narrator is perfect.

Edited by possibilities
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I hate to offer criticism for an episode that was so good and gave me all the feels, but it's just bugging me.  I'm glad that postpartum depression is being discussed in media a whole lot more which helps with lifting the shame people can feel about it.  But I'm also at the point where I'm getting so tired of these storylines.  The number of characters on tv who've experience PPD is astronomical compared to the real life stats.  And I always get annoyed with how it's portrayed.  Jane and Rafael are looking at Petra while she's at working discussing how she's already back at work and yet Rafael is also standing there in his office back at work after very recently becoming a father to twins.  It would be great if a woman can simply decide she wants to go back to work immediately while the other parent (or nannies!) stay home with the child.  

 

That's not to say that Petra's PPD doesn't make sense.  It works with this story because she had tons of risk factors.  I just wish they'd have portrayed it a little differently.

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I kiiiiind of lost it when Petra was revealed to be the house's owner. It's amazing: she's gone from the worst to the best character on this show, and I absolutely love her and Jane's friendship(?). I'm trying ignore the doomsday predictions for Michael. I love him and Jane together so much, and Brett Dier is just wonderful.

Edited by NUguy514
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If I know anything about Telenovelas, and I mostly don't... it's that if Michael were to die, he would probably be killed by his secret, evil mystery twin, who has a horrible mustache.

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Jane and Rafael are looking at Petra while she's at working discussing how she's already back at work and yet Rafael is also standing there in his office back at work after very recently becoming a father

That really is annoying. And they didn't need it-- there were plenty of ways Petra was showing her PPD, and working really wasn't one of them. Gratutious sexism in a show so consciously anti-sexist is disappointing, and just shows how deeply ingrained these kinds of attitudes are, even among people who generally are committed to thinking in other ways.

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The Jane moving plot definitely gets me in the feels as I'm moving out of home next week! So when Jane officially moves, I'll probably be moving too. SO MANY FEELINGS WILL BE HAD!

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Did anyone else have Wonderfalls flashbacks during this episode?

 

I came here to post that very thing! Yes, yes, yes, all those talking inanimate animals.

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I don't get this show.  Petra lectures Rafael and I'm supposed to be happy about that?  Even though, by the end of the episode, everyone acknowledges that Mateo not being that far from Rafael is the best thing for him so Raf was right to not want to be that far away?  And the only reason that it didn't happen earlier was because Jane and Michael had some weird pride thing about accepting money to create a situation that's best for Mateo.  And that money, like the earlier child support Rafael offered, is meant for Mateo even if Jane benefits from it by being his mom. 

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I don't get this show.  Petra lectures Rafael and I'm supposed to be happy about that?  Even though, by the end of the episode, everyone acknowledges that Mateo not being that far from Rafael is the best thing for him so Raf was right to not want to be that far away?  And the only reason that it didn't happen earlier was because Jane and Michael had some weird pride thing about accepting money to create a situation that's best for Mateo.  And that money, like the earlier child support Rafael offered, is meant for Mateo even if Jane benefits from it by being his mom. 

 

It was an odd way to go about things, that's for sure. For me, the thing that didn't make much sense is the fact that Jane decided to find a closer place because of Mateo walking. The thought process there is that Rafael would miss out on those moments if they aren't closer. Yet....he could miss out on those moments regardless of the 40 minute distance or not. Neither parent can be right there for all those moments. What happens if Rafael is in a meeting and can't get out to see Mateo walking? What happens if Jane is working at Mateo says his first word with Rafael? Sure, the distance is better since Rafael and Jane can easily see each Mateo when the other has him, but it's odd with the way they went about it, as if missing those milestones is only due to the distance. 

 

And again, I don't find 40 minutes THAT bad? But maybe it's because I lived in the country before university, so it took about half an hour to just get to school for me. And I don't think it's wrong to not accept the money from Rafael. It may be for Mateo, but I think they both know it's also benefiting Rafael. Which is fine, I guess, but I wouldn't want to accept money from a family member or close friend because then there's a need to owe them, or something. I feel that way whenever I accept money from my parents (and as a twenty two year old unemployed almost graduate student, I always feel that way). 

 

Also, I was fine with Petra lecturing Rafael (the quick switch around right after aside) because Rafael was kind of freaking out. I mean, she's not wrong in telling Rafael that Jane's life got turned upside down unexpectedly as well. Also, I am still stuck on the point that the commute is not that bad. I mean, if you got in traffic, then yes it can be challenging. But a 40 minute commute is actually pretty good. But I guess that point is moot anyway, because Jane and Michael are staying in Miami. 

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I didn't see the show depicting Petra being back at work as evidence of PPD. In fact, I'm pretty sure Raf called her out on returning so soon after pregnancy (that was the prev. episode, I think) and Petra(voice of the show here) corrected him about that & his comments back when she was still pregnant, I thought. Raf and Jane(to an extent) were concerned that she wasn't bonding with the babies and was walking around looking pale and not sleeping, in a daze like. I dunno, I had a friend who had risk factors for PPD and would confide in me so maybe I'm viewing it through that lens...? I thought it was handled well and in keeping with Petra's personality. She tends to already doubt her maternal abilities, but I don't think she's ever been villainized for working since more of the character has been fleshed out.

We have the backstory for why working and having financial security is super important to her. And she's said repeatedly that she's not Jane...who balances both school and work with a young baby, who the show would never malign. My 2 cents tho.

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And again, I don't find 40 minutes THAT bad? But maybe it's because I lived in the country before university, so it took about half an hour to just get to school for me. And I don't think it's wrong to not accept the money from Rafael. It may be for Mateo, but I think they both know it's also benefiting Rafael. Which is fine, I guess, but I wouldn't want to accept money from a family member or close friend....

40 minutes isn't like moving across country and it's not prohibitive but it's also not ideal. Those moments where both parents get to be at their son's swim class? Won't happen. It would probably create a more rigid custody scenario which probably wouldn't be satisfying to anyone in the long run.

And the difference in quality of life when my commute is 5 minutes vs. an hour both ways is significant.

But I'm kind of surprised at Jane thinking she didn't need her mother and grandmother near by any longer. Their proximity also has been an enormous help to Jane with raising mateo. Moving 40 minutes away will likely involve child care she has to find more of.

And feeling obligated to someone who gives you money is a mentality....a mentality that they prioritized over what was best for Mateo. It's not that I don't understand it, I just don't think it makes Raf the selfish monster for offering to help create that scenario. Sure, it benefits him. And Mateo. And if they can get past their pride, it's also a more convenient location for Jane and Michael too given school/jobs. They need to think of it in terms of child support.

And I hated the implication that the woman, who set this all in motion, can lecture Raf about how he should back down on what he'd like as a parent just because jane didn't have an abortion. That was her choice and he let her make it.

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And again, I don't find 40 minutes THAT bad? But maybe it's because I lived in the country before university, so it took about half an hour to just get to school for me. And I don't think it's wrong to not accept the money from Rafael. It may be for Mateo, but I think they both know it's also benefiting Rafael. Which is fine, I guess, but I wouldn't want to accept money from a family member or close friend because then there's a need to owe them, or something. I feel that way whenever I accept money from my parents (and as a twenty two year old unemployed almost graduate student, I always feel that way). 

 

I think it's a lot different when it's a child.  I wouldn't accept money from someone I dated in the past, but I'd accept it if that relationship resulted in a child simply because the money is to benefit the child.  It's called child support and it isn't just something used to buy the kid clothes and food.  I think it was a good decision for Jane and Rafael to agree that they'd raise Mateo more outside the confines of wealth, but refusing to allow Mateo good housing in an area that is ideal for both parents simply due to pride is a problem.  It would be one thing if Michael and Jane had reasons like work, school or family to move further away, but the only reason they had is they didn't want to accept a token amount of child support from Rafael.  

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I am such a sucker for this show - I love it.   Rogelio has always been my favorite - and I never expected Charo!   Are Oprah and Gloria next????

 

But my favorite part of last night's show was Petra and the house - I never saw it coming.  One of the good things about this show is that the characters have so many facets.

 

And the announcer - love him too!

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The surprise when Petra was behind the house that worked out was such a delight. Sad that she's doubting herself so much when she does these things that show she's very different from her own mother. I hope she's packing that bag to go for medical treatment and therapy for her depression and other issues.

 

I agree that it's way better for Jane and Michael to be living close. I think a 40 minute commute each way, and that's only when the traffic ISN'T terrible, would be hellish and degrade their lifestyle. But I was also glad Petra snapped at Rafael for his selfishness over not wanting to make the drive now and then when Jane's life has been completely upended by Mateo. But also also, they should work out a regular child support deal instead of Jane always balking at taking any money. Rafael should be allowed to support his son. Food, clothing, medical care, housing, babysitter, whatever. There should be a regular amount that Jane gets to use for whatever they need and she should stop treating Rafael like his money is the plague. It's child support, not romantic lover gifts, so Michael should get over it, too.

 

I don't think Raf and Jane would be so concerned about Petra working again so soon if it were just that there was work to be done or she was simply ready to work again right away. But she was clearly working to avoid her babies. That's the troubling part. But it was also funny when Raf was surprised that she showed up with the babies in their stroller and she was all "well they can hardly fend for themselves!" I love her pragmatism.

 

Pablo Alonso Segura, what a skunk. Is that the end of that?

Nitpicky question: why did the house have a water pipe running through the attic? What would such pipe serve?

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I don't think Rafael told Petra he had offered to pay for part of the rent. He was sitting at his desk looking extremely gloomy and all he told her is that Jane and Michael wanted to move 40 minutes away because they couldn't afford a decent place closer, and that he was writing to say he wasn't OK with it.

 

So when she yelled at him, it made total sense to me-- it's like he's putting them in an impossible situation, and it's so unfair and unrealistic etc. If they had chosen a shithole nearby because that's all they could afford, he could have also complained that they are letting Mateo live in a dump and that's not good for him. What are they supposed to do? I think we were supposed to identify with her anger because it's just a fact that most people can't have everything they want and need to make reasonable compromises and Rafael was in Petra's mind completely ignoring that reality.

 

Also, I think we were being shown that she really truly did get the message that Jane and the new mothers were trying to send her, about solidarity, and how hard it is for moms, and she was defending Jane the way Jane was trying to protect her-- there's something on this show about female bonding that I think is rare and wonderful in the media, where the women will stick up for and value each other even when it might bother the males around them. Petra would never openly say to either Jane or Rafael how much it meant to her that Jane was showing her kindness and concern, but she would make a big scene on Jane's behalf that people could maybe play off as a pissy outburst, and play it off like righteous indignation instead of any kind of softness.

 

I think they also needed that scene in order to set up Petra getting them the house close by. Otherwise it would have been totally out of no where, and felt unearned.

 

Nitpicky question: why did the house have a water pipe running through the attic? What would such pipe serve?

I wondered that, too. It makes no sense. I have never seen anything like that in an actual house.

Edited by possibilities
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why did the house have a water pipe running through the attic?

A second floor bathroom serving the second floor bedrooms? We found it difficult to find a one storey house when we were looking for our retirement home, so I think two stories and a basement is the norm.

 

I'm also not clear why a 40 minute drive was such a barrier. That's what? 30 miles from Abuela's house/the Marbella/ the police station/ the university?

 

The Marbella and Abuela's house are already far enough apart that Jane has to have her own car to get there. Not biking distance, nevermind walking, evidently.

 

And now I'm off to catch a 20 minute bus ride to go thrifting for my home business.

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I know nothing about Miami area traffic, having never been down that way, but a long commute can also seem longer depending on where in the country you are and what kind of transportation you're taking. But still, Rafael and Jane both seem pretty well-acquainted with the concept and operation of a car, so I'm not sure what the big deal is. I'm in the Detroit, Michigan suburbs, and I drive close to an hour (40 miles) to work each way, freeway all the way. Some parts of my drive are fast, some are spent caught in heavy traffic. Forty minutes to me seems pretty much like next door. But I suppose if you're used to public transportation, and if you're in a population-dense area like NYC or LA or Chicago, it would be a deal-breaker. Can someone educate me on what a commute in Miami would really be like?

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Forty minutes driving in a car, assuming zero traffic, is a bit different than taking a 20 minute bus.  The 20 minute bus ride implies that the place is still reasonably close and can be driven in a short period as a car wouldn't be stopping and starting at bus stops.

 

The 40 minute barrier seemed clear.  There was no reason for them to move.  They weren't buying a house to be in a certain school district, they weren't moving to be closer to work or school or family.  They were wanting to move that far simply because they didn't want Rafael paying even a token amount of child support.  That's ridiculous, imo, especially when Jane and Rafael have had a long standing agreement about how much each will be available in Mateo's life.  That 40 minutes limits the amount of time Rafael can be there to put Mateo to sleep, or eat dinner with him, etc.  Forty minutes to go to work all day might seem like no big deal, but what if you had reason to drive that back and forth multiple times a day?  That starts seeming a lot more like a serious barrier.  Obviously, other families deal with distance, but this family we're watching has made certain parenting decisions and to stick with it, they are going to need to be in closer proximity meaning that one parent is going to have to get over herself and accept child support (though, it turned out that didn't end up happening, but whatever).

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Forty minutes driving in a car, assuming zero traffic, is a bit different than taking a 20 minute bus.  The 20 minute bus ride implies that the place is still reasonably close and can be driven in a short period as a car wouldn't be stopping and starting at bus stops.

 

The 40 minute barrier seemed clear.  There was no reason for them to move.  They weren't buying a house to be in a certain school district, they weren't moving to be closer to work or school or family.  They were wanting to move that far simply because they didn't want Rafael paying even a token amount of child support.  That's ridiculous, imo, especially when Jane and Rafael have had a long standing agreement about how much each will be available in Mateo's life.  That 40 minutes limits the amount of time Rafael can be there to put Mateo to sleep, or eat dinner with him, etc.  Forty minutes to go to work all day might seem like no big deal, but what if you had reason to drive that back and forth multiple times a day?  That starts seeming a lot more like a serious barrier.  Obviously, other families deal with distance, but this family we're watching has made certain parenting decisions and to stick with it, they are going to need to be in closer proximity meaning that one parent is going to have to get over herself and accept child support (though, it turned out that didn't end up happening, but whatever).

 

I partially disagree with this. They wanted to move out there because that particular house fit their requirements. At that point in time, they couldn't find anything closer that had the things that they wanted. They don't have to take Rafael's money to help pay their rent for a closer place that might have been a bit more money. At least, that's how I understood it? I could be wrong in what the money being offered was for. 40 minutes is not that bad, it really isn't. I know that Mateo is still very young, so he needs both of his parents. But they can't both be there all the time for him. There are going to always be times where Mateo's with Rafael and Jane can't put him to sleep, or hold him or read him a book. I assume that Jane and Rafael would have had an arrangement where Rafael would have Mateo for weekends, or during the week (where it seems like Michael would be able to drive in and pick up when needed). Jane and Michael would still be downtown often because they still have their lives there as well. They would just be living in their home, which means they wouldn't be able to stay late in town (and Mateo could sleep in the car anyway, if he had to). 

 

Also, can I just point out that Rafael doesn't get Mateo much anyway? Which I absolutely think is a problem, and if they had continued their current arrangement of Jane only giving Rafael his son when she's busy or on only certain days (it's hard to tell what their arrangement is, because we see Jane asking other people to babysit so many times), then it would become a problem. But this way, they would have been forced to find an arrangement that works best for them. Honestly, this would have actually put them in a predicament due to them having to figure out actual custody arrangements, but they would have worked it out. Like Michael said, he still has a job as a detective so he would have had to commute quite a few times a week (depending on if he works weekends). Jane would have been down on weekends to visit her family, plus she still has work and school. Rafael could have driven there on weekends to spend some time and take Mateo for a few days. It's not that big of a deal, and as much as I side with Rafael on some of his concerns, Petra rightfully called him out on being stubborn and not initially compromising. 

 

They were only giving it a try for a year anyway. It's not like Jane, or Rafael, have any obligations to stay right by each other for the next seventeen years. They're both going to miss moments in their son's lives due to other commitments. Sure, missing out on these particular moments suck, especially so early in Mateo's development. I know that is why Jane changed her mind, which I can see and agree with partially (and it all worked out). But if things hadn't have worked out, I wouldn't have wanted Jane and Michael to sacrifice their dream home just so Rafael was happy. Basically, I do think something in their custody arrangement needs to change. They need to have days where one gets Mateo, especially for Rafael. Because, as of right now, it seems like Rafael only gets Mateo when Jane says he can, or if Rafael asks. 

 

BUT, I absolutely agree with you on the child support. Rafael deserves to help out in some way, and Jane needs to stop being stubborn and accept it. This is all for Mateo, after all, and it's not shameful to accept support from the father. It would help her a lot with paying for Mateo's things, and it's great that Rafael keeps offering the help. Some single moms don't get that (and I guess even moms who are remarried/dating again). 

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Love this show.  My life would seem so much more interesting - even to me - if I had that narrator.  God - I just love him.  I've done my best not to look him up on Imdb because I actually don't want to see a photo of him; I like imagining how he looks in my head - to go with the voice.

 

Getting married seems too fast (meaning, early in the series) so I have assumed all along that something would happen to derail it happening but I really do hope it's not him being dead/gone.  That would seem odd for this show to go in such a dark direction - he's not just Jane's fella, he's Rogelio's best friend!  He can't go! - it would be too heartbreaking.  But, anything is possible.  I mean, if you have a show called Jane the Virgin, it will be a tad of a misnomer if she gets married sooner than later....

 

I love how they do the unexpected on the show - could never have imagined earlier that Petra and Jane would come to this place and the wonderful changes in Petra - 

Edited by roomtorome

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Do we know for sure that Jane is not getting any child support at all for Mateo? I know there have been money disagreements, but I can't believe that Rafael is covering none of his expenses. That makes no sense. I was thinking that Jane and Michael didn't want rent help *in addition* to whatever support Rafael is paying. I don't blame them. It should be a matter of pride to not have someone else pay your rent, especially if that person is your fiancée's ex.

I cheered when Petra told Rafael off because I was having the same thought - he's lucky Jane even had the baby. I felt bad for thinking that, so I felt a bit vindicated when Petra said it.

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Michael and Jane are so cute. I so hope he doesn't die.

 

I wasn't expecting Petra to be the one who got Jane the house, but I fucking loved it. I too have grown to love her and I'm looking forward to see her having a good relationship with her kids.

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why did the house have a water pipe running through the attic?

A second floor bathroom serving the second floor bedrooms?

I don't think they have a second floor, though. And also, I've never seen water pipes in the attic for plumbing on floor below. But your guess is as logical as any other, because they really didn't give us anything to go on. The water burst into the first floor. If they had had a second floor, that would have flooded long before the first floor ceiling caved in. I guess it was just "the curse"-- and supernatural things don't need a logical explanation.

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They wanted to move out there because that particular house fit their requirements. At that point in time, they couldn't find anything closer that had the things that they wanted. They don't have to take Rafael's money to help pay their rent for a closer place that might have been a bit more money. At least, that's how I understood it?

There's always a budget in house hunting.  Rafael offered to cover the difference.  So I suspected they found what they wanted within their price range 45 minutes out of town within their budget.  Rafael offering to cover the difference would let them look closer to find what they wanted even if it meant going over their set budget.  They'd still be paying for the house. (Or did we just say the same thing?  I may have misunderstood what you were saying and we actually don't disagree what the money was for.)

 

Also, can I just point out that Rafael doesn't get Mateo much anyway?

Given how many exchanges we've seen, I get the impression that he does have him, we just don't see them together.  I get it...this show is about Jane and Jane's POV.  And the show strongly links Jane with motherhood which is why they make that choice but it's kind of annoying.

 

Which I absolutely think is a problem, and if they had continued their current arrangement of Jane only giving Rafael his son when she's busy or on only certain days (it's hard to tell what their arrangement is, because we see Jane asking other people to babysit so many times), then it would become a problem. But this way, they would have been forced to find an arrangement that works best for them. Honestly, this would have actually put them in a predicament due to them having to figure out actual custody arrangements, but they would have worked it out.

I think they have a formal agreement because of their fight over Christmas, a Thursday which is usually Raf's day but he was willing to let her have it because the holiday meant more to her than it did to him.

 

Do we know for sure that Jane is not getting any child support at all for Mateo? I know there have been money disagreements, but I can't believe that Rafael is covering none of his expenses.

Oh I'm sure he's covering some of Mateo's expenses. Probably a lot of them. But child support is also about providing lifestyle equivalency which is why some child support judgments can seem astronomical.  I'm not sure if it's true but It's to help mitigate the child liking one parent's house more than another parent's and the totals are usually based on percentage of income. 

 

I cheered when Petra told Rafael off because I was having the same thought - he's lucky Jane even had the baby. I felt bad for thinking that, so I felt a bit vindicated when Petra said it.

I don't like the notion that he's "lucky" that Jane had the baby.  It strikes me as defining motherhood as a gift to him rather than a choice she made.  And she did make choices.  First not to have an abortion.  And the second choice was to raise the baby.  Rafael was more than willing to raise the baby by himself.  If "doing it for Raf" ever played into her mind, it was because Petra had Luisa call and tell Jane about his cancer.  That wasn't him.

What's next?  Is Petra going to yell at him that he should be grateful that she stole his sperm (again) and impregnated herself.  Can he be allowed to love his kids and still not agree with that choice?

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I can't speak for anyone else, but from personal experience, 20-40 minutes isn't bad, especially when you are familiar with traffic patterns and what roads to take. 

 

I don't honestly even think it's bad for a kid either or even a kid Mateo's age. 

 

Besides traveling a bit further, it's not like the relationship dynamics are all that different other than Rafael not having instant access to them. She's not moving five hours away or even out of the country. There was even a huge accommodation for him about dropping and/or Mateo off. Both parents are going to miss things whether or not they are in a relationship together--it wasn't really a huge issue.

 

Rafael is lucky that Jane had the baby because, although Petra tried to impregnate herself, Jane was an innocent bystander in that mess which could've played out a thousand ways. Whether or not she decided to keep the baby for him is somewhat irrelevant due to the fact that she actively tried to work with and be accommodating for Rafael regardless of how she feels more than he has with her. Jane had more to lose and postponed a lot due to an unplanned pregnancy. It wasn't Rafael's fault, of course, but she's treated him like a partner and tries to keep him in mind for many decisions all while he makes decisions based on non parental factors.

 

Also, I think Jane and Michel had laid reasons to not wanting to take the money, despite it also being for Mateo. The three of them are working to have a better relationship, but there are still some ill feelings in there somewhere and they don't want to owe Rafael for anything if something does happen. Also, despite the money keeping Mateo closer to his dad, he isn't wanting for anything. It's not like he needs clothes and their refusing to take money. 

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Nitpicky question: why did the house have a water pipe running through the attic? What would such pipe serve?

 

I just looked this up and apparently if you need the water pipes that were set in your foundation slab replaced, they sometimes will reroute the water through the attic rather than pretty much destroy the foundation of your house to replace the pipes there. It doesn't seem to be too common, but it does happen. It seems to be more acceptable in warmer climates than ones where pipes might freeze. It goes through the attic so it can reach all the rooms where water is needed, such as the kitchen, bathrooms, and laundry.

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IMO a 40 minute commute is a lifestyle change, especially when they are children involved. On the rare days I have to do a 45-1 hour commute each way, it's time taken away from being at home and getting stuff done, picking up the kids at school, and it's just irritating and tiring sitting in traffic. I'm much happier doing the 5 minute commute most of the other days, so their dilemma makes sense. Plus, I don't know why Jane wasn't thinking how far her family was because they are always helping out with Mateo while she's at class or working.

Gloria Estefan would be amazing on this show. Please make it happen!

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Whether or not she decided to keep the baby for him is somewhat irrelevant due to the fact that she actively tried to work with and be accommodating for Rafael regardless of how she feels more than he has with her. Jane had more to lose and postponed a lot due to an unplanned pregnancy. It wasn't Rafael's fault, of course, but she's treated him like a partner and tries to keep him in mind for many decisions all while he makes decisions based on non parental factors.

Jane is accommodating?  Really?  Those two times when she threatened/considering suing him for full custody due to non-parental factors? Or that tender moment early in the season where she reluctantly realized that she should really reach out to Mateo's father first if she needs someone to watch him while he's with her?  I don't know what she postponed either.  She went to grad school pretty early on after she gave birth during which Rafael spent a lot of time with Mateo, including going to the doctor to fix the flat head.  

 

This wasn't Rafael's choice to have a baby either.  Both of them are making the best of their situations and both should make decisions based on what they think is best for Mateo not out of some sense of balancing some invisible scales.

The three of them are working to have a better relationship, but there are still some ill feelings in there somewhere and they don't want to owe Rafael for anything if something does happen.

Easy.  Create a contract stating that it's a gift so if things go south, it won't matter.  It's not an insurmountable obstacle.

Edited by Irlandesa
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Rafael's brother should have moved to New York, where there would be at least the slightest chance that his scarf could maybe be considered weather appropriate. In Miami it is apparently sundress season, but here he is swanning about it a jacket and a goddamn scarf.  Michael and Raf are right to be suspicious-- no one who makes such a misguided sartorial choices can truly be on the up and up.

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There's always a budget in house hunting.  Rafael offered to cover the difference.  So I suspected they found what they wanted within their price range 45 minutes out of town within their budget.  Rafael offering to cover the difference would let them look closer to find what they wanted even if it meant going over their set budget.  They'd still be paying for the house. (Or did we just say the same thing?  I may have misunderstood what you were saying and we actually don't disagree what the money was for.)

 

I think we're both trying to make the same point, just on different levels! Oh yeah, I know they'll still be paying for the house. It sounds like they had planned to just rent, judging by a one year lease that they had planned to sign. And now that Petra has bought the house, I wonder if she's going to tell them that she's the owner. But I guess it sounds like Rafael is offering to chip in with whatever the difference is, and I can see why they didn't want to jump on that. It's just awkward to have some other guy chip in to help pay for the house. 

 

Looking at Rafael's point of view, I'm sure he sees it as a nice gesture to help them stay close by, but it's also so he doesn't have to worry about not seeing Mateo. It's definitely a two way street. He's also fulfilling his own needs when he offered this, which does not make him a bad guy. He has the money, he has the means and he thinks it'll benefit all of them. 

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but from personal experience, 20-40 minutes isn't bad, especially when you are familiar with traffic patterns and what roads to take.

I don't honestly even think it's bad for a kid either or even a kid Mateo's age.

Besides traveling a bit further, it's not like the relationship dynamics are all that different other than Rafael not having instant access to them. She's not moving five hours away or even out of the country. There was even a huge accommodation for him about dropping and/or Mateo off. Both parents are going to miss things whether or not they are in a relationship together--it wasn't really a huge issue.

 

 

I agree with this too. If the show had let them go through with this, they would have found ways to make it work. My sister drives 45 minutes to an hour to work four times a week. Yes, she doesn't have a kid, but she makes it work with her other responsibilities. Jane and Michael would have found alternate, faster routes to get to the city, and they would have made it work. Rafael found a way to compromise because of Petra, oddly enough, except Jane changed her mind, Michael agreed with her and they managed to work out a better arrangement. I think the fact is that all three were willing to compromise by the end, even if Rafael had to take a little more convincing to see things from Jane's POV, and that's really the lesson here. 

 

I'm just saying that they could have chosen the commute to be an hour or an hour and a half. That actually would have made more sense, because then you could have factored in traffic and then there could have been more issues. But 45 minutes? That's adding on extra time; I believe Jane said it would be 39 minutes. To be quite frank, there could be traffic anywhere at any time. Look at how Rafael missed the birth of the twins because of traffic, and that was a short distance away. 

 

Actually....this show could be making a subtle parallel between that and this predicament. And if the show was trying to do that, kudos. It would help to explain Rafael being insistent that a 40 minute commute is too much, even with the knowledge that Jane and Michael would be in town constantly, and Mateo would actually get to spend more days and nights with Rafael. 

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BUT, I absolutely agree with you on the child support. Rafael deserves to help out in some way, and Jane needs to stop being stubborn and accept it.

 

I haven't seen every episode, but does Rafael's sister have any financial responsibility here?  It seems like support should be coming from her as well.

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I haven't seen every episode, but does Rafael's sister have any financial responsibility here? It seems like support should be coming from her as well.

Her responsibility would likely not be child support related. It'd come from malpractice and Jane did, indeed, Sue her. (Although it turned out that Raf had offered up his hotel as collateral on insurance since Luisa was such a risk to insure so Jane, unknowingly, was suing him by suing Luisa.) However, at the time Alba was still an undocumented/illegal immigrant. She was afraid that going forward in a court case could expose her. So Jane ended up dropping the lawsuit so Albany wouldn't be afraid.

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As much as I'm loving Petra this season, I also have to disagree with the argument that Raf is "lucky" that Jane had the baby and that he owes her something for that "gift." Jane made her choices as a mother. She also made choices in conjunction with the father. Yes, it was definitely an odd circumstance that got them into this situation, but once the choice was made to keep the baby, that was that. At this point, the only thing Raf owes Jane is a legally acceptable amount of child support and a healthy co-parenting relationship. Every thing else is just icing on the cake (IMO, of course!)

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I hate driving and think it is stupid to move away from family and jobs to get a nicer home when it requires wasting an extra 1.5 - 2 hours a day in a car.

 

If Raphael wanted to pay the difference so that he didn't have to waste all that time in a car whenever he wanted to see Mateo, I don't see what the problem is.  He has plenty of money and I could see how it would be totally worth it to him.  It was silly for Jane and Michael to be too proud to accept it, preferring to make Raphael's life much more difficult because of their misguided pride.

 

Then again, there's nothing wrong with renting a "starter" house for a year, in the better location.  Jane doesn't really need the HGTV trifecta of open concept, granite and stainless steel appliances or whatever else the cheaper home far out in the suburbs had.  Priorities.

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And first and foremost is Petra, pretty much from beginning to end this evening. Sticking up for Jane, believing her awful mother, buying the house so Jane and Michael could get it.

 

I tell you, she is killing me; she is becoming such a nuanced character. She makes me laugh, she breaks my heart. Brava to Yael Grobglas--and to the writers and show for using her so well.

 

I can't believe how much she's changed since the beginning of the season. I hated this plotline at first but they've actually made it work.

 

To my mind, Petra's problems with Jane have always been that she thought Jane was better than her - nicer, happier, more lovable. But they were complicated by the fact that she also really liked her. I find it kind of beautiful that she's gotten to this place where she can put the former behind her and embrace the latter. And that she can bitch slap some sense into Rafael.

 

And since we're on the subject of depression - albeit in this case post-partum - I think Rafael is severely depressed as well and that's why he's acting the way he is. I was kind of hoping that, between dancing joyfully through their newly-perfect life (well except that Michael, in one way or another, is toast) that Jane would see it like she saw Petra's problem. But I guess it's so longstanding she hasn't noticed it.

 

I also really loved the resolution to the Pablo/Abuela situation in terms of Abuela's growth as a character. In fact, between Raf and Michael talking sensibly to each other, Abuela admitting her iron-rod morality is too inflexible, Petra being fucking awesome and Rogelio and Xo reconciling, this episode was pretty much perfect.

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Loved all the talking inanimate animals - definitely gave me flashbacks to Wonderfalls, especially the parrot on the wallpaper!

Commuting, like many things, is all relative. When I was in college, I lived off campus and without traffic, I could get to campus in 20-30 minutes (it was all surface streets so it depended on how many red lights I hit) but that was considered normal. I lived in a good location so just about everything (the airport, downtown, the beach) were 20 minutes away (each in a different direction). After college, I moved to another city. One of my jobs was less than four miles away and took only 10 minutes to drive there. I was like THIS IS AMAZING!!! Then I got a second job that was downtown. Even though it was only about 15 miles away, I had to leave an hour beforehand to make sure I had enough time to sit in traffic and find a parking space. On weekends when there was a baseball or football game, it could take me two hours to get home. But at night when there was no traffic, I could get home in about 20 minutes. So on the one hand, I totally understand both Jane and Rafael being concerned about a 40 minute commute. As Rafael pointed out, that means if one of them is going to drive Mateo to the other person's place, that's 80 minutes round trip. Right now it's not a big deal if one of them forgets something and needs to drop something off to the other, but it's a much bigger deal if it means you will be gone over an hour just to bring Mateo his favorite blanket or something.

On the other hand, I think that Jane's concern was that she doesn't want Rafael to miss out on important moments in Mateo's life, like when he was walking around the rental house. I totally understand that, but the reality is that even if Jane and Rafael lived together, one or both of them could still miss things like that because they both work and they aren't spending 24/7 with Mateo (which is totally okay - parents shouldn't feel bad about working!).

My larger concern was that Jane is used to getting free childcare from Xiomara and Alba. It's not so much the free part, but that she totally trusts them and they are very accommodating, especially when last minute things come up. Being 40 minutes away would change that. My grandparents lived about 40 minutes away when I was a kid and they almost never babysat us unless it was an overnight stay. Mr. EB's grandparents, on the other hand, lived 10 minutes away when he was a kid so they often picked him up from school and babysat him until his parents got home from work. I know that it's all a moot point now (or a moo point, according to Joey Tribiani) since Petra found that house for Jane and Michael, but it's still something to consider as Mateo gets older.

And in that vein, I think that Jane/Michael and Rafael need to consider being more flexible with each other. Each party was only thinking about how it would make them feel. Rafael was really against Jane and Mateo being so far away, but did he ever consider moving closer to them? I totally understand that Jane and Michael are proud so they don't want to accept money from Rafael, but they need to consider what's best for Mateo, not just their pride. Staying in Miami means Mateo is closer to Rafael, Xiomara, Alba, Rogelio, and the Frozen twins. No, it's not the end of the world if he's half an hour away but the point is that he doesn't HAVE to be half an hour away if Jane and Michael are willing to accept Rafael's financial assistance. Both parties were being stubborn so I'm glad they have realized that they should try to be more open.

Love Petra sticking up for Jane AND secretly getting that house for them. I really hope she's just going to get some postpartum treatment, not abandoning her babies.

Part of me understands Rogelio wanting to throw Jane a big wedding, but I feel that if Jane wants a small wedding then Rogelio should have respected that. He can be proud of her and pay for a wedding and still not invite 100 of his friends who she's never met. Yes, a wedding is about family but Rogelio is her family, not all of his friends. My husband and I paid for our own wedding and although it meant we had a much more limited budget, it also meant that we got to make all of the decisions and we didn't have to worry about our parents inviting a bunch of their friends/coworkers/people we'd never met. We actually had the same rule for our guest list as Jane originally did - we didn't want anyone there who we didn't already know and love. We had a small guest list and I have no regrets. We had time to sit and talk with every single person who came, and not just "hi, thanks for coming, bye!" I'm glad that Jane and Rogelio were able to compromise, and it was very sweet that he had a replica of the Villanueva house built for the wedding.

I agree that Rafael is probably depressed and I can't blame him. In the last two years, his best friend was killed, he found out his wife was having an affair with said best friend, his father was murdered, his sister went off the rails, he found out that his stepmother was the one who killed his father and that his real mother abandoned him for $10 million, Jane broke up with him, his business was in trouble, his baby was kidnapped, he found out that his mother was a crime lord, his ex-wife stole his sperm and impregnated herself (I know he's happy about the babies but still), Jane dumped him again, and he just found out he has a brother. That's a lot for one person to take in.

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo

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why did the house have a water pipe running through the attic?

My parents just moved to Southern Georgia so I can answer this. Most houses down south do not have basements because of the high water table - you could be digging a hole to put in a mailbox and hit water. To maximize the living area, a lot of times the water heater is put in the attic. My parents attic isn't very big, maybe the size of a small room, but the water heater is up there and the pipes travel down to the bathrooms and kitchen from there.

Edited by cmahorror

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