S06.E15: East

[ShadowSixx]

I have to agree, Carol killing David and Karen wasn't just because she felt like killing them. She hoped that it would stop the spread of the virus that was going on even though she had no proof. Carol's killings have reasons behind them whether or not we agree with them. She kills enemies (Wolves, Terminus, & Saviors) that threaten to harm her group, she killed David & Karen because she thought she could stop the virus from spreading, she killed Lizzie because Lizzie had gone insane and there was no coming back for her and killing those before they reanimate into zombies because they're already dead and prevent deaths of other people. Carol isn't doing it without cause.

 

While Carol is suffering from some form of PTSD, I do hope she realizes that all her kills had to be done, maybe with the exception of David and Karen. Everyone has their way of grieving in different ways with the way Rick was hallucinating after Lori died and Sasha acting reckless after Tyreese and Bob's deaths. 

 

I also have to agree with a poster upthread about Carol and Daryl being selfish and what their actions are causing people. It's causing people of ASZ to go out and put themselves in danger and possibly be killed just to look for them. If Daryl hadn't gone out Michonne, Rosita, and Glenn wouldn't be captured and if Daryl went by himself, he more than likely would have been killed by Dwight or held hostage and Dwight probably would have had Daryl show them where ASZ is. Daryl and Carol have to know that they're a prime asset to the group and needed severely especially when they're expecting an attack from Negan's crew. Yes they're plenty of capable fighters and shooters in Rick, Michonne, Sasha, Abe, & Rosita but the more the merrier.

 

Another thing that I mentioned last week, we had another group of men just TALK once again instead of just possibly hurrying up and grabbing Carol and taking her back to ASZ to be let in. Just wasted time once again. 

[Pete Martell]

Rick certainly didn't see it that way at the time. That he claims to see it that way now is proof of his hypocrisy. Own your shit, Rick. If you hadn't been as "weak" as Morgan supposedly is at the prison, you'd be dead.

 

Is it proof of hypocrisy or proof of lazy writing? 

 

This isn't the first time they've thrown Rick's personality around to suit the plot. I guess I should be happy Morgan isn't wearing a blonde wig and carving owls. 

[slf]

The Wolves made the choice to murder people to literally accomplish nothing.  Carol was trying to accomplish something, even if it ended up accomplishing nothing.

 

 

Carol's killings have reasons behind them whether or not we agree with them.

 

 

Carol's reasoning doesn't mean anything, the Wolves had reasons. They were stupid-ass reasons but so was Carol's understanding of how to contain an outbreak. There was never a point, from conception to outcome, where Carol's plan was remotely intelligent or reasonable. I'm not arguing whether or not Morgan was right. I'm just pointing out that Carol butchered two people for nothing. Her "reason" having an air of legitimacy doesn't make it legitimate.

 

Morgan's point, such as it is, is that people can come back from going off the deep end. Carol went behind everyone's back, behind the back of their council that they had selected to make decisions, and murdered two innocent people who had become sick simply because she decided they should die. That group prided itself on taking care of its own; the point of belonging to a group is to live, to have others to lean on, to be able to be vulnerable and sick safely. They saw themselves as a family. Carol violated that, killed two of their own, made them (briefly) into a group that callously and selfishly murdered its own. And rather than kill her, Rick banished her. And Carol came back and she protected that group and saved them. Carol became a butcher and then a savior (I don't think he knows about Lizzie).

 

Again, Morgan's taken his ideology a little too far for me. For me it would come down to several factors: what the person was like before going off the deep end, what their grasp on reality was, how they acted while committing their murders/'crimes'. Why I would never try to rehab a Wolf is because of how gleeful they were, how it was fun for them. Right off the bat you could tell they killed because they enjoyed it. Lizzie was probably a goner no matter what because she lost all sense of reality. Morgan and Carol both were clearly anguished about their actions, and while Morgan was confused I wouldn't say he lost his grasp on reality. Both of their spirals followed great loss and they were both good people before. So I would make the effort to save them.

 

So I don't think Morgan's completely off the mark with the jail cell, and if they're going to try to rebuild society then this is something they actually have to do. They can't run around with electricity and home-baked cookies and shit but then go all Dark Ages when it comes to justice. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by slf

[GreyBunny]

Even if Carol felt justified killing Karen and David, that she didn't immediately tell someone else what happened and why, and let everyone worry that there might be a serial killer in their midst was reprehensible and she should have been sent away for that alone.

Carol (and Morgan) should be less concerned about her killing when it's her secret-keeping that causes problems.

[Bryce Lynch]

Carol's character is really slipping. So she leaves in the middle of the night to "protect" her friends because she knows she can't kill for them anymore, knowing full well that they would look for her and endanger themselves and the entire ASZ.

Then she kills to save herself?

She has become worse than Morgan. At least he has a consistent philosophy and isn't a hypocrite. Totally out of character and terrible writing, IMHO.

[CletusMusashi]

I wonder who told Morgan about Carol being banished, how that happened, what precipitated it.  Maybe it was Carol herself.  

Sort of. Carol told Tyreese, and then Tyreese died, and then after a while the writers decided to just keep writing lines for him anyway and make Morgan say them.

[Bryce Lynch]

"The moral of the story is: I chose a half-measure, when I should have gone all the way...I'll never make that mistake again. No more half measures." -will say everyone after next week's episode.

Mike Ehrmantraut would be the ultimate ZA survivor. :)

[mandolin]

This episode for me demonstrates the issues I'm having the last few seasons with the whole show. I love this show. It's my favorite! BUT, I watch up to Season 3, and things happened. The plot advanced. People did stupid things, but it's because they were in a NEW apocalypse, not two years in.

 

Very little happened this episode. There were callbacks (protein bar), and I love me some continuity, but we spend so much of our 43 minutes being artsy, and going over a period of time that we have already seen (Carol's note to Tobin). It drives me crazy. We have two month off-screen time jumps just to spend the next 6 episodes on 24 hours. (exaggeration in this case, but you get the point.) Less time, please, show, on being artsy and having Carol cry, more having people make smart decisions. When 90% of the characters that have been with us for ages leave the walls, that is just bad decision making. It's plot contrivance at its very finest, and TWD ought to get an award for it.

 

I'm frustrated at how Gimple is running the show. More realistic (yes, with zombies) stuff, and less artsy, fartsy, WHAT DOES IT ALLL MEEEEAAAAAN??? crap. 

 

Also, who wakes up and immediately wants to eat an apple?

[Bryce Lynch]

Sort of. Carol told Tyreese, and then Tyreese died, and then after a while the writers decided to just keep writing lines for him anyway and make Morgan say them.

I think Carol's killings were common knowledge in CDB. Obviously Rick knew and I think he told Daryl at the time. IIRC, Tyrese said something to the effect that the rest of the group would have to accept what she did because he forgave her.

[Anela]

I tuned out the talking of the bad guys in the scene with Carol, and played a bit of Bubble Mania. I only started to pay attention when Carol pleaded with them to go. 

How many bad guys are out there, anyway?? I wonder how many good ones were out there, before the ones we've seen throughout the series, decided they had to go.

 

Daryl. :( I wonder if Dwight was given instructions to wound, not kill, so that Negan might "take care" of him later. And Glenn: after all of the comments about how Maggie should have stayed home before, I was thinking, "Glenn, you should be home with your pregnant wife!" I thought it was silly to get pregnant at the time, but now the baby is on the way, I want it to survive. 

 

After seeing that preview for next week, I want them all to be wearing bicycle helmets. And body armour. I don't want anyone else to die. I also sobbed after Hershel's death, and wasn't sure that I would be back for the next part of the season. 

 

I didn't like Rick's arrogance, at the beginning of the episode, either. I'm scrolling through posts, and just saw someone else mention that. I thought, "Stop it, Rick! You know better than that." 

[NorthstarATL]

Even if Carol felt justified killing Karen and David, that she didn't immediately tell someone else what happened and why, and let everyone worry that there might be a serial killer in their midst was reprehensible and she should have been sent away for that alone.

Carol (and Morgan) should be less concerned about her killing when it's her secret-keeping that causes problems.

Absolutely. IIRC Carol was a part of the governing council at the prison, and should not have had to go behind anyone's backs to teach the kids about how to defend themselves, and, yet, presumably a holdover from her pre-ZA life, she instinctively had the kids lie about it. OTOH, Carol's ability to secret-keep has been beneficial as well, as she went "undercover" into Alexandria, and has, on more than one occasion, including this episode, feigned terror and/or helplessness to lull her adversaries into thinking they were dealing with someone less than capable of wiping them out.

Carol's character is really slipping. So she leaves in the middle of the night to "protect" her friends because she knows she can't kill for them anymore, knowing full well that they would look for her and endanger themselves and the entire ASZ.

Then she kills to save herself?

She has become worse than Morgan. At least he has a consistent philosophy and isn't a hypocrite. Totally out of character and terrible writing, IMHO.

Carol is not their prisoner. She has every right to leave when and if she feels like it. Rick and Morgan chose to go after her. That is on them. (As for leaving in the middle of the night, that is totally in character for her. See my previous post.)

[JackONeill]

My quote-thingy isn't working. I've seen a lot of people commenting on Daryl walking into a trap. And a few of you have mentioned Rosita. I don't know if we know for sure she has a military background, but she did come with Abe, who did. I find it even more upsetting that she allowed herself to get caught. I mean she was standing right behind Daryl. I would think if you have only two people going on a rescue mission, you would be flanking each other. Not walking in the same footsteps.

[SimoneS]

Even if Carol felt justified killing Karen and David, that she didn't immediately tell someone else what happened and why, and let everyone worry that there might be a serial killer in their midst was reprehensible and she should have been sent away for that alone.

Not to mention Carol stood there while Rick almost beat a distraught Tyreese to death rather than confessing that she had murdered helpless ill Karen and David.

If Carole had murdered Glenn when he was ill with the virus, she would have been lucky to have gotten out of that prison alive.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[CletusMusashi]

If you build a wall around your community, kick out anyone that looks at you a little funny, and take a kill first ask questions later foreign policy stance you might find yourself emulating some embarrassing real world figures that in other contexts you might normally dismiss. 

The reason Morgan doesn't get to complain about that is that he does very little except look at people funny, and in exchange they give him food, housing, electricity, free medical care for his entire household, including for his pets, and unlimited building supplies for whatever he wants. I should be so opressed!

Edited March 28, 2016 by CletusMusashi

[SimoneS]

My quote-thingy isn't working. I've seen a lot of people commenting on Daryl walking into a trap. And a few of you have mentioned Rosita. I don't know if we know for sure she has a military background, but she did come with Abe, who did. I find it even more upsetting that she allowed herself to get caught. I mean she was standing right behind Daryl. I would think if you have only two people going on a rescue mission, you would be flanking each other. Not walking in the same footsteps.

It isn't only Rosita and Daryl. It is all of them. This is a sparse forest, not the thick covered Amazon rain forest. These people have nowhere to camouflage themselves so how come none of our people see or hear them coming? Usually Daryl can hear a walker or person a mile away, yet the Saviors are always sneaking up on him. Even Rick and Morgan, they are walking across an open field looking for Carol, yet they miss the Savior following them? Talk about dumbing down characters to further the plot.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[bosawks]

Is it proof of hypocrisy or proof of lazy writing? 

 

This isn't the first time they've thrown Rick's personality around to suit the plot. I guess I should be happy Morgan isn't wearing a blonde wig and carving owls. 

 

I think Rick keeping the fact that all the dead come back, especially in the face of having his wife oversee his mortally wounded son who could've reanimated and made a nosh of his mother, just to keep team spirit alive and well is still one of the biggest WTF the show has pulled.  Dude was a cop, if anyone knows how quickly things can go south it'd be a first responder. c'mon man.

 

However, this happening early in the series has made it really easy for me to hand wave any writing and character development (or lack there of) that I find iffy.  So, thanks show, I guess.........

[Bryce Lynch]

Absolutely. IIRC Carol was a part of the governing council at the prison, and should not have had to go behind anyone's backs to teach the kids about how to defend themselves, and, yet, presumably a holdover from her pre-ZA life, she instinctively had the kids lie about it. OTOH, Carol's ability to secret-keep has been beneficial as well, as she went "undercover" into Alexandria, and has, on more than one occasion, including this episode, feigned terror and/or helplessness to lull her adversaries into thinking they were dealing with someone less than capable of wiping them out.

Carol is not their prisoner. She has every right to leave when and if she feels like it. Rick and Morgan chose to go after her. That is on them. (As for leaving in the middle of the night, that is totally in character for her. See my previous post.)

Leaving in the middle of the night was in character. Doing so knowing her friends would come looking for her and put themselves and the whole community in danger was out of character.

Killing to save herself when she claimed she couldn't kill for her friends was ridiculously out of character. If she had become Morgan and died rather than killing the Saviors that would have made more sense.

[SevenStars]

Slf,

I'm totally with you on Carol. I might argue that what Carol did was worst than the wolves actions because unlike Carol, these wolves never claimed to be something they weren't. Unlike Carol, these wolves didn't kill someone at their most vulnerable time in their lives. Unlike Carol, these wolves didn't know for sure that if they killed this person, there be would loves one mourning them. Carol did all this. She knew these people had people who loved them and would have willingly left with them if it had been a choice between killikg them or going away.

People acting like Carol killed some random people. Carol killed people who were part of their group. Whether they were as close to her as TF, doesn't matter, because the moment Rick and Co. accepted them into their group, the implications was that you are safe with us. That you don't have to fear being sick, being weak in our presence because we are your people now.

Carol action was a great violation of trust that nothing can excuse. So the wolves killed innocent people, for their own stupid ass reasons, just like Carol. But they didn't violate the type of trust Carol did. The type of a trust that is so necessary in this world in order for a group to survive together.

[SimoneS]

WE CAN COME BACK, RICK, WE CAN COME BACK FROM THIS !!!!

 

Seriously, how often has the show debated whether someone can come back from the dark side of the apocalypse? Everything about Morgan's and Rick's confrontation felt like a repeat. They put so much effort into bringing Morgan back, with all the scenes in season five, but in the end he's pretty much a wasted character who doesn't fill the role of the conscience and moral compass as well as Hershel  (or even Tyreese) did.

To the worse part of this story direction is how Lennie James' talent and Morgan's potential as a character been wasted. Morgan has become nothing, but a plot device to rehash this ongoing debate. Morgan should have been a valued member of the group and a good friend to Rick. Morgan could have still been the voice of reason and build the jail cell without making him sound like and behave like an irrational wackjob.

[ghoulina]

Am I the only one who thinks this ep was just packed with fillers? So much walking and driving and long closeups of people saying nothing.

 

They have long been doing in this in the episodes leading up to the season (or mid season) finale. It's like they've given up trying to plan out interesting episodes that can stand on their own, and are just building half of the episodes around other episodes. It's so obvious, and frankly, kind of insulting. 

 

Here is the thing. I don't think that Morgan is wrong about being cautious and killing not being the first option, but he is acting as if the Saviors did not kill that boy at the Hilltop and were not about to kill Daryl, Sasha or Abraham. The Saviors are the aggressors here, not Rick's people.

 

Exactly. Like that guy in the farm yard. They had no idea what his story was, and I think killing him while he was running away may have been a bit too ruthless. But the freaking Wolves? Who just leaped over the wall and began slaughtering everyone they saw? That Wolf he spared could have gotten loose and killed Carl or Judith. Does he feel no obligation to protect other people, especially children? And those three he DID actually let go, they literally almost killed Rick. The Saviors, while cleaner and perhaps more sane, are just as bad. There ARE times when you don't resort to killing, but there are times when you just have to. If Morgan is going to keep insisting that "All life is precious", he should pull a Carol and go off on his own. 

 

I was also amused that Tobin didn't try to join the find Carol quest.   Not that he would be the best out there but still she is in a relationship with him and he supposedly does care about her.

 

Maybe it's because Tobin actually respects what Carol said in her letter - don't come after me. 

 

Great post! Also glad that Rosita has gotten over Abe but I'd prefer that she spend her time with Spencer instead of running thru the woods with Daryl.

 

The cynic in me thinks that the writers had Rosita go after Daryl so she could die and stop mean mugging Sasha when she brings Abe cigars. 

[SevenStars]

Maybe it's because Tobin actually respects what Carol said in her letter - don't come after me.

I agree with this. The worst part is I have no idea why they went after Carol. I get that they love her but she made her reasoning clear in that letter. They know she can take care of herself, because even Rick said she is a force of.

Edited March 28, 2016 by SevenStars

[Helena Dax]

Carol is now Bruce Banner/The Hulk! She knows she's got that killing machine inside her and doesn't want to go there, but when there's no other choice...BANG! And like he does from time to time, she looks for solitude, trying to avoid situations where she would be forced to unleash the Z-Hulk.

 

(Although, tbh, I think she's seriously injured or worse this time and that's why she didn't make sure everybody was dead).

 

Carol's character is really slipping. So she leaves in the middle of the night to "protect" her friends because she knows she can't kill for them anymore, knowing full well that they would look for her and endanger themselves and the entire ASZ.

Then she kills to save herself?

She has become worse than Morgan. At least he has a consistent philosophy and isn't a hypocrite. Totally out of character and terrible writing, IMHO.

 

She begged them not to come after her in her letter. And I don't think she killed those guys to save herself; she killed them because they were a threat to all her friends in Alexandria. 

 

When Morgan told Rick about the Wolf and Rick said "I don't take chances anymore", I swear, I thought he was going to shoot Morgan right there.

 

Ugh, I'm so worried for Daryl, Michonne and the others... Next episode's going to be devastating. 

[wait.what]

Hasn't Dwight missed his intended target several times now? Maybe he missed Daryl and hit another saviour (or the camera man), hence the "you'll be alright."

Or he hit Rosita......

[JackONeill]

You know, it's funny. When Abe and Rick talked at the end of the episode last night, I had this mad urge to introduce them. "Abe, this is Rick." "Rick, this is Abe, aka Dolphin smooth." Honestly, when's the last time these two charcaters said something (more than a grunt) to one another?

Not to be Mr. Negative, but that's a problem with this show. There are so many characters most of them never get to interact. Then, when all of a sudden they do, the audience starts looking for the hidden reason, i e, are they going to die?

[Haleth]

I can't find if this has been mentioned before but since Maggie is not full term, I'm guessing she's about 4 months along? If everyone alive has the zombie virus (dormant until death), and Maggie suffers a miscarriage, wouldn't the dead fetus/baby turn into a zombie inside of her? I would think that would have crossed someone's mind???? So if she's having pains right now, she may miscarry. If she does, and I truly hope she doesn't, and does not spontaneously abort then logic follows that she will have a zombie in her belly that needs removing.

That is something that I'd been curious about too.  I can't imagine why anyone would want to either risk a pregnancy or bring a child into this world anyway.

 

I still like Morgan despite everything (or maybe it's Lennie James I love).  It's good to have a character that tempers the impulse to shoot anything that moves without question.  "Right" is somewhere between the two extremes and situation dependent.  I think Rick has learned that he should not judge the motives of others on the kill/pacifist spectrum, which is why he has come to terms with Carol killing David and Karen.

 

I wonder how the Wolves were able to evade the Saviours who seem to pop up everywhere.

 

I couldn't believe it when I looked up and 45 minutes had passed but nothing really had happened.  Carol's scene was incredible as always but the idea that all the best fighters would abandon Alexandria to search for Carol and Daryl had me yelling "What's the matter with you people??"

Killing to save herself when she claimed she couldn't kill for her friends was ridiculously out of character.

Carol left Alexandria because she wasn't sure if she'd be able to kill anymore.  Each confrontation is a test and she's afraid if she can't do it it might endanger her friends.  This time she could, next time she might hesitate.  I don't see this as out of character.

 

Worst thing?  I'm not going to be able to watch the finale until nearly a week after it airs. ARGH!

Edited March 28, 2016 by Haleth

[ghoulina]

Is it proof of hypocrisy or proof of lazy writing?

This isn't the first time they've thrown Rick's personality around to suit the plot. I guess I should be happy Morgan isn't wearing a blonde wig and carving owls.

 

 

Yea, it's crappy writing. I don't buy for one second that Rick would all of a sudden be on board with Carol killing Karvid. (Just like I've never been on board with Carol actually killing Karvid - more bad writing to push the plot where they want it to.) This was such a big deal to him that he said he didn't trust her around his children! Now, I think the point is, Carol herself realized it was a mistake and was not happy about it. And I think Rick realized she is someone he can count on. So they've moved past it. Fine. Understandable. But to act like Rick thinks Carol is some saint who's never done wrong is doing a horrible disservice to both of their characters and the relationship they've built over the years.

 

 

Also, who wakes up and immediately wants to eat an apple?

 

 

That moment was so awkward and weird to me. I couldn't focus on what Richonne were saying because I kept wondering who just keeps apples on their bedside table. It was like they thought it would be some big, sexy moment - Rick and Michonne share an apple. Juices running down their chins, forbidden fruit - Garden of Eden shit. But it just seemed really cheesy to me.

 

 

To the worse part of this story direction is how Lennie James' talent and Morgan's potential as a character been wasted. Morgan has become nothing, but a plot device to rehash this ongoing debate. Morgan should have been a valued member of the group and a good friend to Rick. Morgan could have still been the voice of reason and build the jail cell without making him sound like and behave like an irrational wackjob.

 

 

THANK YOU! Lennie James is a brilliant actor and I absolutely loved Morgan's character in the early seasons. I was hoping when he came back he would kick CDB's collective ass into gear - show them how to make some real awesome walker-defenses, instead of just letting the dead walk right up to their gates. But no, instead they have him whining and carrying a big stick. It's just so annoying.

[Sparger Springs]

This episode for me demonstrates the issues I'm having the last few seasons with the whole show. I love this show. It's my favorite! BUT, I watch up to Season 3, and things happened. The plot advanced. People did stupid things, but it's because they were in a NEW apocalypse, not two years in.

 

Very little happened this episode. There were callbacks (protein bar), and I love me some continuity, but we spend so much of our 43 minutes being artsy, and going over a period of time that we have already seen (Carol's note to Tobin). It drives me crazy. We have two month off-screen time jumps just to spend the next 6 episodes on 24 hours. (exaggeration in this case, but you get the point.) Less time, please, show, on being artsy and having Carol cry, more having people make smart decisions. When 90% of the characters that have been with us for ages leave the walls, that is just bad decision making. It's plot contrivance at its very finest, and TWD ought to get an award for it.

 

I'm frustrated at how Gimple is running the show. More realistic (yes, with zombies) stuff, and less artsy, fartsy, WHAT DOES IT ALLL MEEEEAAAAAN??? crap. 

 

Also, who wakes up and immediately wants to eat an apple?

Its good for your breath.

[MissScarlett]

Morgan isn't wise, and whatever "wisdom" he has is the result of a past full of fuckups; I think he acknowledges that. His stance has always been not "Do what I say because I'm wiser and better than you" but "Do what I say so that you don't suffer the way I suffered, because I've been there and it sucks." Also, I like that he isn't Rick's meek lackey, and that he has his own philosophy and agenda that he stubbornly maintains. It saves him from being a Magical Black Negro stereotype who exists only to enlighten and serve the white hero.

 

I agree with this 100%.  In the episode, he basically says that he doesn't think that his philosophy is right or that Rick's is right either.  He is just choosing the philosophy that causes him the least amount of psychological pain.  So, the "all life is precious" philosophy is bringing him peace for now.

 

Morgan is also a man who has lost everything and went from one extreme to the other.  He went from "kill everyone" to "all life is precious".  I believe that there has to be a balance in there somewhere.  Eventually, Morgan will have something worth fighting for again.  For now, he has himself only and because of that I believe it is easier for him to go with the "all life is precious" philosophy.  He has already lost everything that ever meant anything to him.  

 

Also, Morgan has made this entire apocalypse journey by himself for the most part (until now).  He was never part of a group.  He was always somewhat of a lone wolf.  Rick on the other hand has always been part of a group and has seen first-hand that mistakes cost lives.  I'm not saying that Rick is 100% right in his philosophy either, but I can say that his mission has always been to protect his people.  So, I think both are acting in the principle of "for the greater good", even though Morgan's philosophy is a little more global than Rick's at the moment.

[ghoulina]

She begged them not to come after her in her letter. And I don't think she killed those guys to save herself; she killed them because they were a threat to all her friends in Alexandria.

 

I disagree. Before she shot them up, she told them they didn't have to do this, and begged them to leave. She was putting her desire not to kill over the safety of anyone else that ran across these dudes. And only killed them to save herself when she realized they weren't going to just drive off. Very hypocritical, and totally Un-Carol like, if you ask me.

[SevenStars]

That moment was so awkward and weird to me. I couldn't focus on what Richonne were saying because I kept wondering who just keeps apples on their bedside table. It was like they thought it would be some big, sexy moment - Rick and Michonne share an apple. Juices running down their chins, forbidden fruit - Garden of Eden shit. But it just seemed really cheesy to me.

This is actually a continuation of Michonne's dedication towards having good dental hygiene. Apples are suppose to be something that help you have good smelling breath and help keep your teeth health. Since they don't seems to have toothpaste, I think this is Michonne's way of making sure their breath don't stink and their teeth are healthy.

But I think that will be lost on most of the audience because we eat apple for other health reasons, since we have toothpast.

I disagree. Before she shot them up, she told them they didn't have to do this, and begged them to leave. She was putting her desire not to kill over the safety of anyone else that ran across these dudes. And only killed them to save herself when she realized they weren't going to just drive off. Very hypocritical, and totally Un-Carol like, if you ask me.

This sounds totally like Morgan, but because Carol killed them to savd herslef, it's all good that if they left her alone, she would have been willing to let them go and kill others.

I honestly don't have a problem with this and her reasoning but I'm not going to act like Carol did something great and selfless.

[Bad Example]

Am I the only one who thinks this ep was just packed with fillers? So much walking and driving and long closeups of people saying nothing. How long was that Johnny Cash song anyway? I thought it would never end.  

 

 

 

I loved the song, mostly because of all the romantic pairings it reflected:  Rick & Michonne, Glenn & Maggie, Sasha & Abraham... Daryl and his motorcycle.

 

I was also amused that Tobin didn't try to join the find Carol quest.   Not that he would be the best out there but still she is in a relationship with him and he supposedly does care about her.   

 

There's another level with Tobin to Carol leaving: even though he seems level-headed land seemed to understand her reasons, she still left HIS warm bed.  Chasing after her has a slightly different meaning.  (I don't think this is why he didn't go.  Just throwing it out there.  Tobin didn't go because of plot reasons and stuff and thangs.)

 

Really the whole thing is just so much hoo-haa anyway because the way this show is written we never really meet anyone worth sparing. Or they're not around for very long.

 

The thing that bothers me about that is that I'm sure a lot of the people with the Saviors/other groups are only there because that was the first safe haven they found early on in the ZA. We saw some of that with Woodbury. There are probably a lot of them who would have fit in with CDB just fine.  Now they're stuck where they are, not necessarily liking the situation they're in, but they've stayed alive the only way they can.  

[riverheightsnancy]

This is a classic example of how I can understand where Carol is coming from and can't in Morgan's case. This is 100% predicated on the fact that we have seen more about Carol and know more about her and know little about Morgan. That is a problem with the writing, IMO.  I think that Carol has always viewed herself as a victim (and she was). She is innocent in that abuse by Ed. The domestic violence changed her. Once Ed was gone, she was FREE to be who she always thought she could be. It was heady and liberating, but also scary.  That is the downside. She is realizing that she is more like Ed than she thought. Given the right circumstances, she is just like the way that she perceived Ed. THAT scares her. It rocks her to her core. She always believed that she was better than Ed and is an innocent victim, when in reality, she is no better. She can hurt others too, if given the right circumstance.  If this is Carol's mindset, then I can see how disorienting that is to her and how dangerous she believes that she is to others. She can kill without blinking an eye, that scares her. Now that she has started to see it and understand it, it scares her. That self-reflection time she has had at Alexandria has highlighted this for her and why she feels that she must leave. She is afraid of what she can and will do. 

[Helena Dax]

I disagree. Before she shot them up, she told them they didn't have to do this, and begged them to leave. She was putting her desire not to kill over the safety of anyone else that ran across these dudes. And only killed them to save herself when she realized they weren't going to just drive off. Very hypocritical, and totally Un-Carol like, if you ask me.

 

I hadn't seen it that way, but yes, you're right she was willing to let them go. But I don't think that's hypocritical; she left Alexandria because she wanted to leave the responsability behind too. She was trying the "not my problem anymore", but when she saw they were going to make it her problem anyway, she did what she had to do. 

[ghoulina]

This is actually a continuation of Michonne's dedication towards having good dental hygiene. Apples are suppose to be something that help you have good smelling breath and help keep your teeth health. Since they don't seems to have toothpaste, I think this is Michonne's way of making sure their breath don't stink and their teeth are healthy.

But I think that will be lost on most of the audience because we eat apple for other health reasons, since we have toothpast.

 

That could be interesting, but I really don't see the writers putting that much thought into it. 

 

Also, why wouldn't they have toothpaste? They're not out on the road. They're all living in homes that have nice bathrooms, soap in the shower, etc. Tubes of toothpaste can last a long time, and if people are going out on runs, I'm assuming they would grab some. Also, they ostensibly have baking soda - Carol has been baking a lot. You can make your own toothpaste with baking baking soda. 

 

I really just think the writers were trying to create some sexy, apple sharing moment...but it fell flat for me. 

[ghoulina]

I hadn't seen it that way, but yes, you're right she was willing to let them go. But I don't think that's hypocritical; she left Alexandria because she wanted to leave the responsability behind too. She was trying the "not my problem anymore", but when she saw they were going to make it her problem anyway, she did what she had to do.

 

And she's just going to keep on having to do what she has to do - because there's no shortage of homicidal maniacs in the ZA. That's why her reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. She can't kill to protect people she loves, but she can kill to protect herself? Wouldn't the former be more meaningful? If you're going to have end up killing anyhow, why not do it as part of a group, part of a family? It just doesn't make any sense to me, and I hate that the writers are fucking Carol up. Once again. I feel like they just came up with some contrived reason to get her outside the gates so she could come to the rescue - once again. Watch the blood not be from Dwight shooting Daryl, but Carol shooting Dwight. 

[Enigma X]

I am about 12-hours behind on reading the comments. Seeing as so I just arrived at work, and my day looks to be a busy one, I probably won't get through the comments.

 

I just wanted to say that Morgan posits valid questions whether you agree with him or not. His viewpoint is needed in this world (as I argued that this world needed a Tyrese and a Hershel). The problem with Morgan is that he is the victim of bad writing. I am not saying if his character was written well that many would like him. (I like the character but don't always agree with him.) I am saying that his valid points don't make sense because the writers are not as deep as they think they are.  

 

I really like the show, but it is hit and miss with writing. I think many overlook the atrocious writing when someone is considered badass. many of those characters are written poorly too.

[seacliffsal]

I was surprised that so many people felt the need to go after Daryl. I think it's been pretty consistent that he often goes off by himself, and, thus far, always returns. Why they felt the need THIS TIME to go after him boggles my mind. The most endangered he has been is when he went after Sophia and was shot by a member of CDB (Andrea). I get that they were all 'he feels responsible...' but it seems like he always feels responsible for the group. Their own idiocy got them all captured. Just on his own, he may have been able to take out Dwight and the others. Instead, he has to listen to all of their speeches (Glenn!) instead of listening for danger. Then, he finds Glenn and Michonne tied up and gets distracted from his original mission. When Daryl is on his own he does fine.

Also, I have not been able to figure out why Dwight hates Daryl so much as Daryl was trying to help them and they took Daryl's belongings....

[SevenStars]

That could be interesting, but I really don't see the writers putting that much thought into it.

Also, why wouldn't they have toothpaste? They're not out on the road. They're all living in homes that have nice bathrooms, soap in the shower, etc. Tubes of toothpaste can last a long time, and if people are going out on runs, I'm assuming they would grab some. Also, they ostensibly have baking soda - Carol has been baking a lot. You can make your own toothpaste with baking baking soda.

I really just think the writers were trying to create some sexy, apple sharing moment...but it fell flat for me.

Yep, it is unbelievable that they wouldn't have toothpaste when it is something they would most likely find in any house or store they enter. So you might be right or they might have been going for story continuation and a sexy moment between Rick and Michonne.

[peach]

I guess if Rick didn't kill Carol at the prison, he should just agree with Morgan and start taking in stray psychopaths.  Daryl should just stop fighting and tell Dwight to come on back to Alexandria and sit a spell.  Maybe they'll all change.  Morgan can teach them Aikido.

[SevenStars]

And she's just going to keep on having to do what she has to do - because there's no shortage of homicidal maniacs in the ZA. That's why her reasoning just doesn't make sense to me. She can't kill to protect people she loves, but she can kill to protect herself? Wouldn't the former be more meaningful? If you're going to have end up killing anyhow, why not do it as part of a group, part of a family? It just doesn't make any sense to me, and I hate that the writers are fucking Carol up. Once again. I feel like they just came up with some contrived reason to get her outside the gates so she could come to the rescue - once again.

I guess she has decided that she is willing to kill for herself but not for those she loves.

[SimoneS]

Another thing, it isn't like Rick and his people haven't tried to negotiate and reason with the groups they encountered. He tried with Phillip at the silos and once again when Phillip came to prison with the tank. Daryl tried to reason with Joe and his raping buddies. Bob tried with Gareth and his cannibalistic peeps. Rick and Daryl tried with Dawn at the hospital. None this worked because these people were violent psychopaths who only wanted to plunder and destroy. However, RIck was successful with the Vatos and now with the Hilltop group. Notice both these groups had seemingly sane reasonable leaders (although Gregory is an ass). 

 

While this episode made me give up understanding the writers' intentions, I think that Carol is having a breakdown and it is impossible to rationalize her reasons for leaving Alexandria. She is clearly not thinking clearly at the moment. 

 

They have long been doing in this in the episodes leading up to the season (or mid season) finale. It's like they've given up trying to plan out interesting episodes that can stand on their own, and are just building half of the episodes around other episodes. It's so obvious, and frankly, kind of insulting. 

 

I usually go easy on the writers when they do this, but last night they were so obviously lowering the characters' intelligence and experience to put them in place (i.e., outside of Alexandria) like chess pieces for the finale that I had to roll my eyes. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[Primetimer]

Safety in numbers? Seek shelter? Nah, this is characters acting with no regard for anybody's welfare. Enjoy!

Read the story

[TattleTeeny]

Go with that version ... although there is a Montclair, VA.

Which, I assume, is what she's talking about. If you're in the South, you'd add a "New Jersey" to your answer. because why would you assume anyone would know you meant? (And if you're talking about our Montclair up here in North Jersey, you might even add the words "expensive" and "hipster," ahahhahhaaaaaa!) 

 

I SOBBED over Hershel's death. I mean, that seriously messed me up. I'm anticipating, but not looking forward to, something similar for the season finale.

 

Me too. And by some mean trick of the universe, every single time I catch a TWD marathon, I always seem to come in just in time to see that damn scene!

Edited March 28, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[cincivic]

Me to the tv last night:  " Glenn and Michonne, why are you walking so casually through the woods? " " Daryl, Glenn was shaking his head no!" "You are a tracker, Daryl!. How in the world did you not see or most importanly HEAR them behind you!!!! ".  " Hey Rick, maybe you should look around the car area a bit more." You guys (Rick and Morgan) are just walking through fields without a glance behind you?"  I did say Oh crap when Carol blasted away the Saviors.

 

I liked this episode but I wasn't enthralled by it. Like many of you, I couldn't understand the need to go after Carol or Daryl. Glenn didn't want Maggie to go in the episode from 2 weeks ago so why did he just jump right into the van to go after Daryl? Didn't make sense.

[SimoneS]

Yep, it is unbelievable that they wouldn't have toothpaste when it is something they would most likely find in any house or store they enter. 

 

Especially since Rick seems able to find an endless supply of waxing product for his chest. Ha.

[peach]

I was surprised that so many people felt the need to go after Daryl. I think it's been pretty consistent that he often goes off by himself, and, thus far, always returns. Why they felt the need THIS TIME to go after him boggles my mind. .

Especially after being treated to half a season of none of the ZA BAMF team being able to find a way out of ASZ to look for Glenn.  Somehow they all trusted that Glenn would arrive alive, in the nick of time, of course.  Daryl Dixon leaves this week, and everyone panics.

 

The writing is all over the place on everyone this season, and it's also just....not good.  Part of the issue with the "moral dilemma" debate being repeated ad nauseum was how it was just so heavy handed, expository, and kind of dumb.  Like, Season 6 Rick would have killed Season 4 Carol instead of sparing her, but now Season 6 Rick agrees with Season 4 Carol, so actually he would not have killed her. .... Wut?

 

Vikings is a lot better at exploring how you can love people who still sometimes do no good, terrible, very bad things, and also how you can have moral standards within your own group, but be generally merciless to people outside the group.  This show makes everything black or white, and it's getting boring.

[SevenStars]

This is a classic example of how I can understand where Carol is coming from and can't in Morgan's case. This is 100% predicated on the fact that we have seen more about Carol and know more about her and know little about Morgan. That is a problem with the writing, IMO. I think that Carol has always viewed herself as a victim (and she was). She is innocent in that abuse by Ed. The domestic violence changed her. Once Ed was gone, she was FREE to be who she always thought she could be. It was heady and liberating, but also scary. That is the downside. She is realizing that she is more like Ed than she thought. Given the right circumstances, she is just like the way that she perceived Ed. THAT scares her. It rocks her to her core. She always believed that she was better than Ed and is an innocent victim, when in reality, she is no better. She can hurt others too, if given the right circumstance. If this is Carol's mindset, then I can see how disorienting that is to her and how dangerous she believes that she is to others. She can kill without blinking an eye, that scares her. Now that she has started to see it and understand it, it scares her. That self-reflection time she has had at Alexandria has highlighted this for her and why she feels that she must leave. She is afraid of what she can and will do.

And I'm the opposite. Depsite the amount of screen time they gave Carol and lack that Morgan have, I understand him and his point of view more than I understand Carol's.

We were witness to him unwilling to kill his wife, even after she died. As a result he lost his son, causing him to lose his mind. He blame himself for not being strong enough to kill his wife, causing his son's death. I think a part of him also blame his son for bot being strong enough to kill his mother when he needed too. Because I remember Carl apologizing to him for trying to kill him and he told Carl to never apologize for doing whatever it takes to protect himself.

We witness his insanity and his actions doing that time. So to me, it make perfect sense that he would go from one extreme to another. Because he hasn't learned yet how to cope with killing people. So he fears that if he ever do it again, he will lose his mind. He doesn't want to risk that because this time there will most likely not be anyone to bring back.

Carol doesn't want to kill because she feels guilty. Morgan doesn't want to kill because he fears he will lose his sanity.

So while I don't agree with everything Morgan have said and done, I get where he is coming from. And unlike with Carol, I'm actually rooting for him to find a medium away from these two extremes. I'm just tired of Carol, which has a lot to do with the amount of screen time the writers are giving her because it make her story seems boring and repetitive.

[SimoneS]

The writing is all over the place on everyone this season, and it's also just....not good.  Part of the issue with the "moral dilemma" debate being repeated ad nauseum was how it was just so heavy handed, expository, and kind of dumb.  Like, Season 6 Rick would have killed Season 4 Carol instead of sparing her, but now Season 6 Rick agrees with Season 4 Carol, so actually he would not have killed her. .... Wut?

 

 

I think that season 6 has been pretty strong overall. Yes, there have been a few blimps, but it has been entertaining as hell. I do agree that the main weakness in the writing has been using Morgan to make the ongoing argument about the morality of killing instead of integrating him into the group in a substantial way. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by SimoneS

[Enigma X]

I stick with this show, the same reason I stuck with LOST (my favorite show but ended up being a convoluted showcase) and that is because I really like (most) of the characters (and that includes Morgan). Even the characters that I don't like individually, I like when they are part of the "family."  I like that they have become family in this crazy new world. But as the seasons wear on, I notice that character motivation and plotlines don't stay consistent, don't organically evolve or devolve, or just flat out make no sense.

[ghoulina]

I was surprised that so many people felt the need to go after Daryl. I think it's been pretty consistent that he often goes off by himself, and, thus far, always returns. Why they felt the need THIS TIME to go after him boggles my mind.

 

I thought the same thing! Everyone was freaking out - "Daryl left the compound! Oh no!" Um.....so?