S03.E16: Dawn's Early Light

[HunterHunted]

Abbie never has chemistry with any of the love interests that show insists upon. Season one the show insisted that Luke was her love interest, but she had much better chemistry with Ichabod and nearly headless Andy (John Cho's character). Season two she had decent chemistry with Hawley, but much better chemistry with Ichabod. Now in season three, she has terrible chemistry with Danny and fantastic chemistry with Ichabod.

[blugirlami21]

I agree with Miss Almond. This season was not the right time for a relationship with Danny. This season wasn't the right time for a relationship with Zoe. It was a waste of time for a show with such an uncertain future.

The third episode from the likely series finale is not the best time to try to make Dabnie happen. I honestly don't understand Danny's appeal to Abbie. He's very passive aggressive, angry person and I've seen no evidence that she cares about him. If she loved him it's him she would have been thinking about while in the catacombs.

It's like the show wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to celebrate Ichabbie's so very special bond with each other but then they want us to believe that they would have room in their hearts to be in love with other people. People who will always come second to their witness counterpart. Katrina and Zoe found that out the hard way. I have no doubt that Danny will as well.

I also agree with Cynic who talked about Abbie being a darker, less fun character this time around. It's understandable considering what she went through but it changes her dynamic on the show. Abbie was always able to push through and still be Abbie. I wish we had seen more of that this season.

[TaurusRose]

Plus her teeth are way too white.

ROTFLMAO You say that like it's a bad thing.

[cynic]

...

The Betsy Ross voiceover was so bad that it took me out of the moment.

I watched it again this morning and egads, it was so bad. "As always, I shall... (breath)...count on that." Really? Who the hell takes a breath there? Why didn't she just pause at the comma like a normal person? There were all kinds of weird pauses and oddly placed stresses in that reading. It was like she was reading it blind off cue cards.

...

I'm not at all surprised. This is Bones 101 (and later Castle 101). Drag out the UST, because it means people will impose subtext on even your hackiest episodes, and then throw the shippers a bone by hooking up the B couple with way less chemistry in season 3 while throwing up obstacles to the A team.

This actually doesn't surprise or upset me, because frankly I think the actors are doing so much of the heavy lifting in the successful moments that I bluntly don't trust the writers with Ichabod and Abbie. Honestly, does watching Jenny/Joe, Danny/Abbie, and Betsy Ross/the entire world make you want to see this group put words in the mouths of Ichabbie? ...

Dragging things out are SOP, but I think the difference between SH and shows like Castle is that those shows typically telegraph from the very start that the lead couple is endgame. The certainty of it and the nods to it along the way earns them a lot of patience. SH has a history of actively working against this ship, so things like this don't necessarily feel like just an obstacle to delay what they're carefully building. They feel like the story is possibly just going in another direction, which makes even the people who have tied themselves in knots trying to find subtext in these episodes doubt there is actually anything there at all. Plus, there's the issue that Castle and the like weren't living under the threat of cancellation in their third seasons, so of course their fans were more okay with waiting.

But yeah, seeing how pedestrian the writing for the romances has been this season, I do have my doubts that they could really do justice to Ichabbie.

...

Also - Add me to the list of people who think Danny dies in the finale. After revealing to Abbie that he was really spying on her, not in love with her? Or maybe, started out as a 'job' to romance her and becomes real just as he dies and reveals all? That will rock her in several ways for next season in a good way.

Abbie is only now starting to lower her walls. If Danny is revealed as having betrayed her trust, I think that will set her back. That's not something I want to see the series possibly end on. This is stuff that should have happened in the first half of this season if anything. Abbie's time in the catacombs and the aftermath of that should have been what brought her to the point of opening up again and growing closer to CRANE. Even if we didnt see them actually getting together, the set up and promise of that would be an okay way to go out. But no, now there's Danny. Even if we get a fourth season, it will almost certainly be the last. I don't think I want to spend time on Abbie either mourning Danny or her regressing emotionally due to his betrayal. Edited March 26, 2016 by cynic

[Enero]

I am surprised more people haven't commented on Pandora's comparison of IchAbbie and her relationship with THO.  P+THO is/was clearly a romantic/sexual relationship, a marriage she even calls it.  So the fact she uses IchAbbie as the model of a real, strong powerful relationship, and comes right out and states that they love one another, is huge for long term story. 

.

I think more people would've been excited about Pandora's comments if it didn't seem more like shipper baiting than anything to do with what the show is building towards onscreen between Crane and Abbie. There were numerous opportunities in this episode as well as the last 2-3 to show that there are deeper feelings than friendship between Crane and Abbie, especially from Abbie's perspective ( i.e. her and Jenny's talk about men, her and Crane's talk about not leaving things unsaid, the brief, anemic hug between her and Crane in the last episode etc.) but the writers deliberately focused most of these moments that organically should've led to Ichabbie on SBR and/or Danny.

As I said before, I'm not completely against Dabbie, but I'm against it at this point in the story. She should've already been involved with him when Crane returned from Scotland. They could've built the story from there and then after the Catacombs we could've dealt with the fall out of Danny learning the truth and Abbie and Crane realizing what they feel for each other but not necessarily acting on it due to all that was happening.

Right now, I'm not understanding Abbe's motivation for getting involved with Danny. As been stated, Crane was the one who was with her heart, soul and mind and kept her sane for that year she was in isolation, but she comes out wanting to be with Danny? Huh? The only reason I can see why she would pursue this is because Danny told her he loved her and she hasn't heard those words in a while from a man she cared about and was involved with. I know that sounds horrible but nothing else seems to make sense. IMHO. She's ready to have a real relationship and Danny is her best option, at this point, so she's taking it.

[blixie]

 

This was the third to the last episode and I expect more from a showrunner who personally went through heartache himself over a show he wasn't given the chance to properly end the way he wanted to.

 

Exactly it's reasonable for people to question how this Ichabbie can come to fruition, when Dannbie is being introduced so late in a season, where no further seasons have been guaranteed. Three episodes does not a full arc make. While I concur that I'm glad that Abbie deserved a full fledged relationship, I merely wish it had been with Hawley, and they had never insinuated that he hooked up with Jenny, because Nikki had perfectly good chemistry with that actor and not a whole bunch with this guy.

Edited March 26, 2016 by blixie

[DearEvette]

I am gonna actually say something nice about Betsy.  I know, I know... someone hold me.  But outside of the terrible v.o. Betsy was well integrated in the flashback and worked really well for the mythology.  Plus... she wasn't all tits out.  I am no prude, but he show got waaaay off on the wrong foot by making her this supposed bad-ass spy who could infiltrate enemy lines wearing nothing but a bustier & a smirk.  In last night's show she had a credibility that she was lacking in the earlier episodes.

[vanarnd1]

Like other people, I don't have as much of a problem with the idea of Danny/Abbie as I do with the execution and timing of it. i mean earlier in the season they seemed to be clear that Abbie had past feelings for Danny but that she wanted to move on and not complicate their working relationship. Then starting from the midseason premiere after Abbie came back from the catacombs, they began to tease Ichabbie, and now out of nowhere Abbie definitively wants to start a relationship again with Danny. The timeline and pacing doesn't add up, and to do this in what could be the last few episodes of series is just misguided when TPTB knows how invested their audience is in Ichabbie. And it is further compounded by the lack of screen time and dialogue Danny has gotten. If they wanted to go this route, why didn't they do it earlier and give more backstory on their relationship in Quantico so the audience could become invested in them? It seems like they are doing what every other shows does, using the main character's chemistry to tease the viewers, but not being willing to actually put them together.

 

And it is a shame because a lot of the episode was good. Pandora was great separating herself from HO, Joe/Jenny were better with more reasonable screen time, I actually liked the Betsy Ross tie in with the plot in what ironically could be the last episode we see her, and it was more fast paced action/supernatural than we have seen for much of the season. I am not sure what to make of  Erza Mills yet, it is odd how he shows up uninvited constantly but at least they are trying to give more backstory on the Mills family.

 

I am not sure what their plans are with Danny/Abbie  to end the season, like others have said, it will prob involve the evil FBI guy and maybe they are going for the emotional beat by killing off Danny in the finale, but either way the writers are sending a clear signal that Ichabbie isn't going to happen. And if they really felt so strongly about not going there that is fine, but to write the season the way they have and to get everyone's hopes up just to do a sudden U-turn right at the end is very disappointing to say the least.

Edited March 26, 2016 by vanarnd1

[Eun Soo]

I think Abbie's attempt to reconnect with Danny, even though he admits that he has secrets he isn't willing to share, is a symptom of her PTSD. In much the same way she was used the symbol to maintain her sanity, I think she's using Danny as her touchstone to normalcy. Otherwise, she would have expected him to share his secrets before that kiss. Abbie's taking a huge gamble on Danny's love/integrity, and she's usually not reckless like that. It's a gamble that won't pay off because Danny doesn't love her - he can't, because he has no idea who she is. I thought he would have asked all sorts of questions before going in for that kiss, but all he seemed interested in was Crane. He showed no real interest in that part of her life, which makes me think that he doesn't and won't get it.

 

The fact that Danny is her supervisor makes the relationship questionable, but I WILL BE EXTREMELY IRRITATED IF ABBIE QUITS HER DREAM JOB TO PURSUE A DOOMED PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP. Don't get me wrong, I prefer Abbie as a cop and would be happy to see the FBI go away, but not because of a guy.

 

I was upset that TPTB went there with Danabbie, but for the same reasons I was upset with zzzzZoe - BORING. I think Zoe and Danny were/are passive aggressive time wasters, so I'm hoping TPTB did so because they know they have the time. It will be worth it if it allows Abbie to be open to a romantic future with Crane, and we get time to see it play out. 

 

So happy that Pandora played THO, and I think her comments about Ichabbie is TPTB acknowledgment of Ichabbie as end game. Probably a pipe dream, but the Ichabbie shipper in me refuses to believe otherwise. 

 

I don't see the point of Ezra Mills. It looks more like a set up for next season - hopefully.

[HalcyonDays]

And if they really felt so strongly about not going there that is fine, but to do the write the season the way they and to get everyone's hopes up just to do a sudden U-turn right at the end is very disappointing to say the least.

 

Funnily enough, this is the exact complaint some of us have been making for the entire three seasons. Don't ship-tease if you are not going there. Why do we get Crane losing his mind to get Abbie back, forgetting his citizenship interview, cooking her romantic dinners, Abbie 'talking' to Crane to keep her sane, her freaking out to rescue Crane from THO, and Pandora stating that they "love each other" and then it's just friends.

 

That's what's so frustrating about the show. Don't include stuff like this for the last three years, then claim platonic.

[roomtorome]

Well, I must be an island of one because I just don't see romantic chemistry between Ich and Abbie - chemistry as friends and partners, yeah, but not romance.  Guess it is subjective as usual.  So, ultimately, I don't personally care who she or he winds up with or if they wind up with no one at all.

 

What I did like, even though I was bored through much of this is that they finally had them working together in the same scenes throughout the episode and I have missed that.  

 

Has this been renewed?  Are ratings good enough for its renewal?   I'd be surprised if it was.

[tennisgurl]

I suppose this is the last we see of Betsy Ross...finally. She just never worked on this show, and I still have no idea why she was here at all. Its not like she is a viable love interest for Crane in the current plot, and most of her flashbacks were just about random lessons that Crane learned. Plus, as pretty much everyone has noted, she just comes off as too modern for the time period. As much as it pains me to say something nice about Katrina, at least I bought she was from the past. Besty seemed like a modern day action girl type, not even a old timey action girl type. She just did not work. 

 

As for Abbie/Crane...to me it comes down to timing. If they had written the new romance for Abbie a while ago, I would be behind it. But, even though I have no real problem with Danny, he hardly seems like an End Game sort of guy. Even if Abbie didn't end up with Crane, I would prefer she got with a guy (if she has to end up with anyone) who is a little more interesting. We have no idea where the show goes from here, or if it goes at all, and it would be nice if we could get some kind of resolution that does not feel forced. I personally feel conflicted by Abbie/Crane. On the one hand, its nice to see a show where men and woman can be friends. On the other hand, ignoring great chemistry just to prove that point isn't good story telling either (looking at you, Joss Whedon) and it cant be denied how much chemistry is between Abbie and Crane, and their extremely close relationship. If you looked at this show, and looked at these characters, it seems like its leading to Abbie/Crane, but now? Who knows if we even have the time. 

[CooperTV]

Well, I must be an island of one because I just don't see romantic chemistry between Ich and Abbie - chemistry as friends and partners, yeah, but not romance.  Guess it is subjective as usual.  So, ultimately, I don't personally care who she or he winds up with or if they wind up with no one at all.

They are indeed platonic friends. I was just wondering how Danny will now cope with Abbie living with her close platonic friend, with whom she shares a special supernatural bond, who will always be there because Abbie and him have destiny with the capital D together, who makes her candlelit very platonic dinners and gives her emotional support she can only take from him. I'm pretty sure Danny is going to be totally fine with it. As should anyone, really.

 

ETA: I'm obviously snarking at TPTBs here.

Edited March 26, 2016 by CooperTV

[MissAlmond]

I am gonna actually say something nice about Betsy.  I know, I know... someone hold me.  But outside of the terrible v.o. Betsy was well integrated in the flashback and worked really well for the mythology.  Plus... she wasn't all tits out.  I am no prude, but he show got waaaay off on the wrong foot by making her this supposed bad-ass spy who could infiltrate enemy lines wearing nothing but a bustier & a smirk.  In last night's show she had a credibility that she was lacking in the earlier episodes.

 

Oh, I agree Betsy was much better in the second half of the season.  I don't know what they did with NR but she was much better (or as better as the woman can get for playing a woman from a different time period).  But the reading of that letter was all sorts of bad and not, I'm sure, the way Nikki Reed wanted to exit, stage left. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by MissAlmond

[cynic]

Is this really the end of her though? I'm curious why the writers felt the need to include the "someone I love" bit in the goodbye letter. It seemed kinda random since they pretty much backed off of the idea of any romance plot between Betsy and Crane after encountering all the pitchforks. Why include that line if it's not closing a chapter on something that was explored and it's not going to come to fruition in the future?

If I thought the writers were either really trollish or very stupid, I would suspect that Betsy was going to show up in the present.

[snarktini]

I am NOT HAPPY ABOUT ABBIE AND DANNY.  I don't trust him. I think he is trying to find out the scoop on Ichabod. Like I wonder if Ichabod has been on someone's radar for some time. I could also be very wrong.

 

I don't trust him either, which isn't a stretch since we know he's up to something. His wide-eyed reaction read to me like he was playing dumb. Especially when he was asking Sophie who else knew, who all was involved. Intel gathering.

 

Second, Ezra Mills. What is the point of this character?

 

I have some faith that Papa Mills will come into play, although I could be giving the writers too much credit. I think there's something supernatural in his past that will explain why he left and set up him to do something heroic in the present. 

 

Am surprised Danny hasn't read the story/legend of Sleepy Hollow and the Headless Horseman, complete with the tales of Ichabod Crane. 

 

In the show, the Sleepy Hollow legend doesn't exist. Otherwise everyone would know who Crane is.

[Sparkling Beth]

 

I have some faith that Papa Mills will come into play, although I could be giving the writers too much credit. I think there's something supernatural in his past that will explain why he left and set up him to do something heroic in the present.

I was going to say the same thing.  I'm reminded of the show Chuck, in which it turned out that his father was deeply involved in the spy business but Chuck didn't know it until well after he was involved himself.  Or Alias, when Sydney discovered that SD6 was working against the CIA, not as part of it, and that her father was part of the CIA while pretending to be part of SD6.  This could be a similar example of the children not being aware that a parent has known for quite some time about the perils they've been facing.

[Julia]

Well, given the fact that being a witness has a genetic component, and his involvement with artifacts, it seems to make sense that Papa Mills was something like a witness himself. Maybe he made the same choice as Abbie did not to endanger anyone by being in their life.

[catrox14]

Okay, I think I missed something or my DVR freaked out.

 

The beginning of the episode had Ichabod and Abbie and Jenny and Ezra meeting. Then it immediately jumps to Ichabod confronting Pandora. And then goes to Abbie talking to Danny at the gym.

 

So WTF happened between the scene at the house and  Ichabod meeting Pandora...Help?

[Enero]

Well, given the fact that being a witness has a genetic component, and his involvement with artifacts, it seems to make sense that Papa Mills was something like a witness himself. Maybe he made the same choice as Abbie did not to endanger anyone by being in their life.

 

But hasn't it been made pretty clear that Abbie's Witness heritage comes from her mother's side? Though I guess it's not out of the realm of possibility that it can be on both sides of the family.

 

Okay, I think I missed something or my DVR freaked out.

 

The beginning of the episode had Ichabod and Abbie and Jenny and Ezra meeting. Then it immediately jumps to Ichabod confronting Pandora. And then goes to Abbie talking to Danny at the gym.

 

So WTF happened between the scene at the house and  Ichabod meeting Pandora...Help?

 

Nothing. Unfortunately, that's how the story played out and was edited. 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Enero

[catrice2]

I liked that Pandora stood up to the Mr. All Powerful.  Ironically, my sister and I watched and discussed the show all the time the first season.  She did not watch Season 2, and she was visiting from out of town last night while I watched it on DVR.  After about 10 minutes, she asked me why the show had not been canceled and said that she was glad she had not wasted last year or this one watching it! 

 

I can't explain it, but for me this show (along with the Flash) has gone from "must see tv," to watching it just to discover where it all went wrong!  I went from loving Jennie to disliking her screen time because it includes boring Joe with whom she has no chemistry.

 

Arthur Fancy is so miscast in this role...or since I am such an NYPD Blue fan I can't see him as anyone else.  They have yet to reveal his purpose. 

 

This is also no chemistry between Abbie and Danny.  I went from wondering what the purpose of the other agent was to sorely missing her this episode. 

[catrox14]

 

Nothing. Unfortunately, that's how the story played out and was edited.

 

Good grief. That's ....terrible storytelling and editing. Like how hard would it have been to show like even a text message Pandora sent summoning Ichabod..just to explain why he was there.

 

Thanks...sigh.

[vanarnd1]

Funnily enough, this is the exact complaint some of us have been making for the entire three seasons. Don't ship-tease if you are not going there. Why do we get Crane losing his mind to get Abbie back, forgetting his citizenship interview, cooking her romantic dinners, Abbie 'talking' to Crane to keep her sane, her freaking out to rescue Crane from THO, and Pandora stating that they "love each other" and then it's just friends.

 

That's what's so frustrating about the show. Don't include stuff like this for the last three years, then claim platonic.

Yeah exactly. Unfortunately I think TPTB have been opportunistic and used the potential of Ichabbie to try and draw in viewers during the middle part of the season while never intending to get them together. It is a shame they would do that to the fans especially after what everyone went through in Season 2, but either they have some creative aversion to bringing them together, or they want to stretch it out as much as possible for financial gain, which are both bad reasons. I am not sure about anyone else, but when Abbie told Ichabod in the museum she needed to tell Danny so they could be in a relationship, I was really caught off guard. It came out of nowhere and for her to say it casually in front of him, makes me wonder if I was watching the same show the writers were all this time.

[Sportsgal324]

Yeah exactly. Unfortunately I think TPTB have been opportunistic and used the potential of Ichabbie to try and draw in viewers during the middle part of the season while never intending to get them together. It is a shame they would do that to the fans especially after what everyone went through in Season 2, but either they have some creative aversion to bringing them together, or they want to stretch it out as much as possible for financial gain, which are both bad reasons. I am not sure about anyone else, but when Abbie told Ichabod in the museum she needed to tell Danny so they could be in a relationship, I was really caught off guard. It came out of nowhere and for her to say it casually in front of him, makes me wonder if I was watching the same show the writers were all this time.

 

Exactly, vanardt1! (I have yet to figure out how to quote posts in my replies, but that's what I was trying to do above!) I spent all the Abbie/Danny scenes this episode yelling at my tv! When Abbie told Ichabod that she needed to be truthful with Danny to have a future with him, I shouted, "WHAT!!?!?" And then when Danny asked Abbie if he could kiss her, I screamed, "Nooooooooo!" even before he planted one on her. I hate the two of them together, I don't buy at all that Abbie has feelings for him, I think their chemistry is nonexistent ... I just want to throw rotten tomatoes at the writers!

 

And why have so many moments where Ichabod says things like talking about not leaving things unsaid ... Only to have both characters share NOTHING!? Annoying.

 

I agree with something the poster Cynic said about not wanting to endure Abbie mourning Danny if he dies or moping if he betrays her, although I think I'd rather have him betray her and her be angry. I still don't trust him, and think he might be using her. (ITA with everyone wondering where the "bad" FBI guy went. And why is Danny pulling out decanters of alcohol in his office during the workday!? Unprofessional doofus.)

 

I agree that someone's going to get bumped off soon, but I think, judging from the previews, it could be next week. (Isn't there one more show after next week?). From Ichabod's comment about "Victory comes with a price," it seems a reflection upon death, but he doesn't seem choked up enough for it to be Abbie, Jenny, or even Joe. I think the writers brought Ezra Mills in for more than just a family reunion, but I don't know if it's to save his daughters, sacrifice for them, die for them ... Still don't have a feel for that.

 

And off-topic, the pink taffy scene was sooooooo predictable! Bah.

 

I've now watched this episode three times, and as much as I love the story-weaving about the flag, the Star-Spangled Banner, more hidden undergrounds, etc, it's tarnished by the confounding relationship developments or lack thereof.

 

Lastly, thanks to everyone for the warm welcome on my first post last week! I love these message boards, and hope we find out soon that there's a fourth season on which to ruminate!

[TaurusRose]

Oh, I agree Betsy was much better in the second half of the season.  I don't know what they did with NR but she was much better (or as better as the woman can get for playing a woman from a different time period).  But the reading of that letter was all sorts of bad and not, I'm sure, the way Nikki Reed wanted to exit, stage left.

I will only concede to the fact that NR's portrayal of Betsy Ross was okay in this episode and this episode only.

[Sportsgal324]

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/horror/new-promo-stills-for-sleepy-hollow-season-3-episode-17-delaware-a132628

 

Couldn't figure out how to post pictures, so I just copied the link, but the above website has stills from next week's episode.  One of them shows the archives with Ichabbie, Joenny, Pandora, Danny, and Sophie all working together.  Interesting summit.  Wonder how many glares Ich will shoot Danny in that scene!  LOL.

 

[CalamityBoPeep]

I cried foul at the Orpheus statue door opening. Unless that statue is well-ventilated and has some airflow,  it's hundreds of years old and the air when the door slid open would be quite foul. Like opening a pyramid door after it's been sealed for thousands of years. Both Ich and Abbie should have been wearing some sort of medical mask and had a small oxygen tank.

 

In our house, we've decided that the founders must have been hella ventilation pros. As well as having secret cleaning crews that continued to hand down the maid service job through the centuries. Because that place was clean! Not a spec of dust anywhere. The founders must have invented electrostatic air filters long before the modern technology came around, and also made them self-cleaning. Impressive tech. ;-)

 

Or... writing hole. It's really ridiculous, the things television writers just do not question. I'm starting to think every television show should employ on the writing staff: 1 engineer, 1 police officer, 1 lawyer, and 1 doctor (remember Ichabod recovering at home when he nearly died of a puncture/major blood loss?)... to maintain any sense of credibility. 

[Frozendiva]

The founders must have sealed that place tight as a drum. No spiders or other insects, probably snakes and rodents and their remains and bodily excretions, animals finding a way in. Enough to make you gag or worse. The secret chamber seemed perfectly sealed.

 

Ichabod should have been in the hospital when he got his puncture wound. Unlike the rest of us, he hasn't been exposed to various bacteria and our environmental sludge and pollution. He may have had the regular childhood diseases and built up some antibodies, but they may have mutated a bit in 200 years.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Frozendiva

[The Wild Sow]

 

First, I liked the use of history in this episode.  It felt very much grounded in reality but with the Sleepy Hollow twist.

Except for all those lovely green leaves on the trees.  On frickin' Christmas Eve!!!  Which was the date of the actual crossing.

 

At least in the one scene they had a little fake snow around the trees.  And light jackets, no blankets wrapped around them, no shivering, no seeing their breath......

[catrox14]

In a show with 200 year old Colonial spies in the present day, headless horseman that can throw fireballs, Ben Franklin that totally believes in Time Travel and actual Pandora, I'll never nit pick BSC historical/science shit in this show. It's all a mess and that's what I love about it.

But bad acting, ship baiting, and OOC stuff..Those are bridges too far for me.

ETA: I'm not say anyone else is nitpicking....that was probably a poor choice of words. SORRY!

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[Indi]

Like other people, I don't have as much of a problem with the idea of Danny/Abbie as I do with the execution and timing of it. i mean earlier in the season they seemed to be clear that Abbie had past feelings for Danny but that she wanted to move on and not complicate their working relationship.

 

Exactly! Abbie clearly showed she still had feelings for Danny in the first half of the season, that's when the chemistry between the characters was evident and that's when the show should have taken full advantage of it. There is no lack of chemistry between the actors, because, as per a previous movie they did together, they don't just have good chemistry, they have SCORCHING HOT chemistry. However, right now the only good reasons I have to be happy about the kiss are: 1. Abbie has been kissed! FINALLY!!!! 2. The guy who kissed her is the hottest in the show and even though he is shady and could even be a villain, as of now he is the most decent guy in the show next to Joe. 

 

Unfortunately, and as always, the writers have done their worst developing this relationship. They're simply talentless incompetent hacks on a good day. There is no good reason for Abbie/Danny to happen at this point, particularly after a bunch of episodes with few questionable interactions between them. They must know this, but who cares about good writing and character development, when they can sacrifice those in favor of more bait and switch? Because that's what this was all about, the endless Ichabbie baiting throughout the episode, only to switch it with Danabbie at the end. At least, for once in a lifetime, Abbie was the winner.

 

Well, I must be an island of one because I just don't see romantic chemistry between Ich and Abbie - chemistry as friends and partners, yeah, but not romance. Guess it is subjective as usual. So, ultimately, I don't personally care who she or he winds up with or if they wind up with no one at all.

I think that, whatever romantic chemistry Abbie and Ichy may have had in the past, it has waned to lukewarm buddy-cop chemistry at best. We are talking about two people, who live together and the most they have achieved is ever increasingly chemistry-free hugs, fist-bumps and chess games. But they lurve each other according to everyone around them *rolls eyes*

[jhlipton]

Did they just erase Katrina from the record?

Who?

 

Answers are not important because I am not interested in grown ass women allowing a loser father back into their lives. Sorry.

The Mills Sisters could learn a thing or two in that regard from Annalese Keating!

 

Did Katrina and Ichabod have a shipper name?

#vomit

 

Well, given the fact that being a witness has a genetic component, and his involvement with artifacts, it seems to make sense that Papa Mills was something like a witness himself. Maybe he made the same choice as Abbie did not to endanger anyone by being in their life.

It's my head-cannon that the Mills line is matrilinear and the Crane line is patrilinear.

[thuganomics85]

I did enjoy how the crossing of the Delaware river ended up being a huge moment in the entire story, because it was back to what I enjoy about this show, which is randomly taking historical moments from America and somehow twisting to them to be involved in the batshit insanity (still love the Boston Tea Party one.)  And then they even put both the Star Spangle Banner and even Betsy Ross' flag into it as well!  Ha!  History is so wacky!

 

Besides that, eh.  I guess it's nice that Daniel finally knows, but I'm not sure why I should care about him and Abbie as a couple.  I was too busy distracted that they were kissing right in the middle of the office, surrounded by glass.  At the very least, I was expecting Sophie to show up, and then slowly back away.  And I just don't know where they are going with all these members.  We've now got Ichabod and Abbie of course, but now we have Jenny, Joe, Sophie, and Daniel tagging along.  Just so many characters, serving similar purposes.  I have to think someone is going to go.

 

Also not sure what the point of Papa Mills is.

 

I actually thought Nikki Reed was better in the flashback compared to the norm, but then came the voiceover.  That was the worst.  And Betsy and Ichabod's "love" is making me feel dirty, because it's making almost feel bad for Katrina.  I mean, yeah, I was relieved when they finally killed her off, but to just do a memory wipe seems like an overkill.  Especially since it's not like Betsy is any better.

 

But, hey!  Pandora finally kicked The Hidden One to the curve, so all is well!  Go Pandora!  I'm glad Shannyn Sossamon is killing it here (and being one of the best things about Wayward Pines), and making me relive the crush I had on her in A Knight's Tale.

[Happytobehere]

 

Do wonder if Katrina was a replacement for the unattainable Betsy.

 

No, the showrunners just hope we are either too stupid, or so thrilled not to be subjected to struggle with that we forget. When Ichabod met Struggle he was still loyal to the British. Busty timeline has him firmly ensconced in fighting alongside Washington and Co., so given what we already know, Ichabod had to have broken up with Struggle at some point, had a thing with Busty and possibly got back with Struggle after Busty's demise. Or perhaps all this is leading to the reveal that Ichabod is unworthy of Abbie because he was banging Busty while married to Struggle. We the fans will be so outraged, we won't want him in the same planet, left alone in a relationship with the too good for him Abbie.

[Julia]

Wait, Betsy died before 1774? I'm confused. Ross was her first husband's name. The seven kids were from husbands two and three. Not to mention that she didn't sew the flag she didn't actually sew until 1776.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Julia

[BooksRule]

In our house, we've decided that the founders must have been hella ventilation pros. As well as having secret cleaning crews that continued to hand down the maid service job through the centuries. Because that place was clean! Not a spec of dust anywhere. The founders must have invented electrostatic air filters long before the modern technology came around, and also made them self-cleaning. Impressive tech. ;-)

 

I cried foul at the Orpheus statue door opening. Unless that statue is well-ventilated and has some airflow,  it's hundreds of years old and the air when the door slid open would be quite foul. Like opening a pyramid door after it's been sealed for thousands of years. Both Ich and Abbie should have been wearing some sort of medical mask and had a small oxygen tank.

 

I just explained it to myself that all of this could be because it is a supernatural place (which would certainly explain the torches that suddenly became lit as they entered).  One problem I had was that the lyre 'trigger' on the outside of the statue wasn't hidden at all.  You would think in decades upon decades of cleaning the statue, someone would have noticed that the lyre actually played a tune.

 

I'm not a Pandora fan, but I was glad that she stood up to The Hidden One.  When he came into the cavern calling for Pandora, his complaining tone made me almost expect him to say 'Where are you and why isn't my dinner on the table!?'

Edited March 27, 2016 by BooksRule

[CooperTV]

No, the showrunners just hope we are either too stupid, or so thrilled not to be subjected to struggle with that we forget. When Ichabod met Struggle he was still loyal to the British. Busty timeline has him firmly ensconced in fighting alongside Washington and Co., so given what we already know, Ichabod had to have broken up with Struggle at some point, had a thing with Busty and possibly got back with Struggle after Busty's demise. Or perhaps all this is leading to the reveal that Ichabod is unworthy of Abbie because he was banging Busty while married to Struggle. We the fans will be so outraged, we won't want him in the same planet, left alone in a relationship with the too good for him Abbie.

 

My version of Katrina vs Betsy looks like this:

 

Katrina as a Quaker field nurse gives Ichabod a piece of her mind of him being evil British asshole, then Ichabod has his insight/breakthrough, he becomes a spy, the Betsy Ross stuff happens, he meets Katrina as a rich bride that is going to be Mrs Headless Horseman, they fall in love.

[jhlipton]

Especially since it's not like Betsy is any better.

 

Reed is a much better actress than Winters, and TPTB took her from Busty Ross to dressed in a reasonable manner quickly, so we weren't subjected to a whole season of crappy writing and crappier acting.  Moreover, we see Betsy for only a few minutes in an episode she's in, she's not in every episode, and she actually does stuff. So while not great, I would say she's better than StruggleWitch.

 

We the fans will be so outraged, we won't want him in the same planet, left alone in a relationship with the too good for him Abbie.

 

#WeAReAllNowlIndis!

 

Wait, Betsy died before 1774? I'm confused. Ross was her first husband's name. The seven kids were from husbands two and three. Not to mention that she didn't sew the flag she didn't actually sew until 1776.

 

You so silly -- expecting this show to hew to historical timelines!!!

[Julia]

You so silly -- expecting this show to hew to historical timelines!!!

 

You know, I keep doing that, like, I'm outraged that the show with the 250 YO man and the wendigo and the egyptian god enslaving the greek princess and the headless guy has a madonna statue in a colonial Dutch Reform church, because that's _not accurate_, and... um.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Julia

[catrox14]

My version of Katrina vs Betsy looks like this:

 

Katrina as a Quaker field nurse gives Ichabod a piece of her mind of him being evil British asshole, then Ichabod has his insight/breakthrough, he becomes a spy, the Betsy Ross stuff happens, he meets Katrina as a rich bride that is going to be Mrs Headless Horseman, they fall in love.

 

 

I seriously lol'd at "Mrs. Headless Horseman". Katrina would have been a lot more interesting if she had been an actual Headless! Mrs. Headless. ....man I miss Headless!Headless :( 

 

Between this show and Supernatural, I read and write the weirdest sentences that, taken out of context would lead to me (us)  being committed.

Edited March 27, 2016 by catrox14

[benteen]

I love that this show got back to one of its most enjoyable elements.  Batshit crazy American Revolution history.  AND they through in Batshit Crazy War of 1812 history too!  So extra points there.  They are almost always very creative on this front and continue to get story material out of this although I was never into Sexy Betsy Ross.

 

I like how Team Witness has grown.  The show has done a much better job of incorporating new characters than they did last year.

 

I like Danny but it seems too late in the game for have him and Abbie hook up, especially with the fate of the show still up in the air.  It should have been done earlier this season instead of this weird dance with the LONG drawn-out conversations and the LONG attempts to beat around the bush.  Just get to Abbie and Crane.

 

Enough to Ezra Mills.  The guy was a dirtbag who abandoned his kids but the show think he deserves forgiveness and is pushing that crap.

 

Glad Pandora left her jerk lover.

 

Looking forward to seeing how things play out in the last two episodes.  I hope not the final two episodes because I think this show has really regained its groove this season.

[Cyranetta]

Somehow I have the feeling that the ramping up of a relationship between Abby and Danny has been done solely to ramp up the emotional "punch" for Abby when it inevitably turns out that Danny is either (A) a bad guy or (B) a hero, but not long for this world (or the next one,probably).

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm not a shipper, but even I could and can see the amazing chemistry between Beharie and Mison.  That said, when Abbie told Ichabod how she "wanted" a relationship with Danny, and so wanted to tell him the truth, my head did a 360 and I screamed WTF??? Since when? I could accept they had a relationship when they were equals, but...in the past. Once he became her BOSS, that's it. Over. Kaput. He is her BOSS. So either he quits or she does if they want a [gag me] "relationship."

 

I see NOTHING with them. I've never seen this actor in anything else, but here, he's as wooden as a stick. There's no charisma, charm, sexiness, for me. Unlike Orlando Jones. But I'm not gonna go there, since it would break the internet if I did.

 

IF she wanted to explore it, it should have been done early in the season. Oh wait. They couldn't because she'd just FINALLY joined the FBI.

 

And I also can't shake that Danny is shady, because I'm not stupid. I remember his calls and taking orders from Michael O'Keefe's character; about keeping an eye on Abbie, find out what she's up to, and other stuff, and blah, blah, blah.

 

It's incredible how so many show runners and writers continue to think the viewers of their shows are gullible and stupid when we're not.

[roseslg]

I see NOTHING with them. I've never seen this actor in anything else, but here, he's as wooden as a stick. There's no charisma, charm, sexiness, for me. Unlike Orlando Jones. But I'm not gonna go there, since it would break the internet if I did.

 

Ditto.  I've never seen the actor who played Daniel in anything and after seeing this, I do not want to see him in anything.   Sometimes I wish US shows were like British shows and had shorter seasons.   I think if they knew that they only had 25 episodes in total to tell their story it would make for much tighter storytelling and less of this runaround.   

[TaurusRose]

It's my head-cannon that the Mills line is matrilinear and the Crane line is patrilinear.

That is the way it has been presented on screen as well. Of course, they can always rewrite everything that has come before. Yes, I'm bitter and don't trust these ham-handed hacks with any aspect of SH.

[bethy]

What they've done for me with Abbie's sudden (to me, anyway) interest in developing a relationship with Danny is dramatically lessen my enthusiasm about the next two episodes.

Whether Ichabod and Abbie were going to end up together at the end of the season or not, I've so enjoyed watching the two of them together - when they were actually on screen at the same time. But now they've added one more person into the mix who is bound to lessen their time together by his very presence whatever his relationship with Abbie. And because he is supposed to be a love interest - unlike Sophie - I'm guessing he'll take up even more time than Jenny and Joe and Sophie.

Boo.

Edited March 28, 2016 by bethy

[HalcyonDays]

What they've done for me with Abbie's sudden (to me, anyway) interest in developing a relationship with Danny is dramatically lessen my enthusiasm about the next two episodes.

 

Ya think??

 

Sorry to be so negative, but at this point, any Ichabbie talk is nonsense. The writers decided it will not be, so therefore it is not. What kills me is that they have presented many scenes for years that would indicate it WOULD be.  But to them, the reality of the scenes would invalidate the Ichabbie, because they see Ichabbie ONLY as friends....

 

It destroys my shipper heart, but honestly, yeah whatever. I expect what I do not want, which is Crane dead, and Abbie living her normal life with Daniel, in it's boring realization. I expect it, so come on, show. Prove me wrong.

[possibilities]

I agree that the show is a mess, for many reasons. But at the same time, it's also becoming increasingly ironically hilarious to me that this is the rare show that passes the Bechdel Test, for which discussions about it do not.

 

One thing I noticed this week was that the supernatural fire guy was stumbling around as though the actor had watched earlier seasons and was trying to mimic headless's stance and style of movement. I appreciated the effort and was imagining the actor was a fan. Also, how many shows are there where some of the most memorable performances have been delivered without a head or a face?

 

I missed Sophie this week. I find her more interesting than most of the others right now, because she's not emo.

 

One way Betsy is a superior character to K, is that she's effective and successful and knows her own mind. She doesn't need rescuing all the time and her life does not revolve around whatever man she's connected to-- she's her own person and has total agency. I'm not saying I don't notice the problems, but I've been reflecting on why I watch at all, despite the flaws I see in the show. And I think ti comes down to the way the show tries really hard to be original and to subvert sexist and other tropes. It often fails, but it's like seeing the gears grinding, and it's like they're falling short but making an effort. So it's infuriating but weirdly I appreciate the effort even though it also irritates me in so many ways.

 

I also thought it was interesting that Pandora was putting up with THO because she felt guilty, not because she was actually helpless or somehow didn't mind the abuse. I had begin to think she was just a doormat, and then that she was just out-gunned. Having her as a mortal be able to escape, out-wit, and ultimately triumph over a god is another way the show is trying to write outside of the usual box (make your own box humor here).

[Indi]

My version of Katrina vs Betsy looks like this:

 

Katrina as a Quaker field nurse gives Ichabod a piece of her mind of him being evil British asshole, then Ichabod has his insight/breakthrough, he becomes a spy, the Betsy Ross stuff happens, he meets Katrina as a rich bride that is going to be Mrs Headless Horseman, they fall in love.

 

Except that the dates shown in the flashbacks say that Ichy and Useless Witch were engaged in 1774, right after she broke up with Headless (Necromancer) and this season showed Ichy showing interest and pursuing Sexy!Betsy in, for instance, 1775 and other different dates. Ichy and Useless Witch could have broken up their engagement for a while and Ichy could have taken this wonderful opportunity to try to shag the superior Sexy!Betsy, but that doesn't go well with the S1 and S2 timelines either. Either way, there was definitely cheating involved, since Sexy!Betsy was married.

[CooperTV]

Except that the dates shown in the flashbacks say that Ichy and Useless Witch were engaged in 1774, right after she broke up with Headless (Necromancer) and this season showed Ichy showing interest and pursuing Sexy!Betsy in, for instance, 1775 and other different dates. Ichy and Useless Witch could have broken up their engagement for a while and Ichy could have taken this wonderful opportunity to try to shag the superior Sexy!Betsy, but that doesn't go well with the S1 and S2 timelines either. Either way, there was definitely cheating involved, since Sexy!Betsy was married.

Betsy Ross from the show was married? I don't think so.