S02.E04: Gloves Off

[ghoulina]

Well, Jimmy didn't lose his job. I'm not sure if I'm happy about that or not. I don't think he cares for it very much. It really sucks that Kim is being punished even worse than him, though. How much of this is she going to take? As much as I dislike Chuck, he was right about the fact that Jimmy can't really see when he has a problem. When he wants to please someone, it's like he has tunnel vision. I just am not sure I understand how Kim got called into the office in the first place. Obviously Cliff Main called up HHM to bitch about the guy they strongly recommended. Did they just ASSUME that Kim knew about the video? I just think it's really unfair that she is getting blamed for something she had no clue about. I kept yelling at her to stand up for herself, say she had no idea! But, of course, she wants to protect Jimmy. Again, how long is she going to keep this up? 

 

It was interesting that right after sending Kim to the "cornfields", Chuck is laid up under a pile of space blankets. Guilt over his part in it? Or manipulation? Did he KNOW Jimmy would be pissed and come calling, and hope that having a "setback" would keep him off his back? Maybe a bit of both. As much as Chuck wants to stand tall on his morals and ethics, he sure seems to have a lot of deep guilt over how he treats people. That's the read I get anyhow. Or maybe he has no guilt at all and it's all one long con. I cannot stand the guy, yet he fascinates me. 

 

The whole thing with Nacho-Mike-Tuco was very interesting as well. As much as Mike may want to step up his game, to better provide for those girls, I think it may take him a long time to become a killer. Well, he already killed the cops who murdered his son. But maybe that's part of it. Maybe he's afraid of what he'll become. Will he end up being any better than those two? 

 

His plan was very clever, and shows again how well Mike can read people and situations. He really has that knack for knowing how things will go down. But I just don't know if this was the right solution. It wasn't really what Nacho wanted, although he didn't seem overly pissed about the results. But Tuco is still out there, and this is a guy who doesn't forget those who have wronged him. We shall see. 

 

Stellar performances by all, though. It was very fun to watch. 

 

I'm sorry, but I totally missed Krazy 8. What scene was he in? 

[shapeshifter]

We also saw the possible reason for the actual birth of Saul Goodman. Jimmy promises that "Jimmy McGill, lawyer will be gone, like he never existed." It's possible that at some point Chuck succumbs to the temptation of extorting Jimmy. Jimmy then lives up the letter, but not the spirit, of the agreement. Jimmy McGill never practices law again, but Saul Goodman's law career is born

This post makes me see Jimmy's motives in a new light: Even though Jimmy cares enough about his brother to wrap him in an extra space blanket, he also wants to see Chuck sink to the level of "criminal lawyer" to extort Jimmy into giving up law. It feels like a very organic sibling battle in which Jimmy is essentially shooting himself in the foot to win a round. Hmmm. "Win a round." Like with "Gloves Off," right?

[ghoulina]

If I ever need an illegal gun I am going to Lawson. I love that guy. So professional and customer friendly and he has such a passion for his merchandise.

 

Isn't he the best? He didn't even care that he lost a sale, he just really wants to help people. (Help them kill other people, but whatever....)

 

 

 

We met Mike after we met Tuco.  But Mike was around while Tuco was around -- even though we had not met Mike yet -- and we never heard Tuco mention wanting to kill Mike, nor did we hear anyone in Tuco's camp mention Mike.  Mike never mentioned Tuco 'after the fact' to Gus (when talking about the Cousins stalking Walter) or to Walter & Jesse, just in passing.  It just seemed to me like Mike and Tuco had no direct, personal knowledge of each other, let alone a reason for Tuco to want to kill Mike or vice versa.

 

It's possible that Tuco just thought the guy he beat up that day was just some random old man who hit his car. Maybe he never realized that they ended up being in the same criminal circles. Mike seemed to be that enforcer who was always lurking in the shadows, so I don't know how much people knew about him, except for top guys. 

 

 

 

We also saw the possible reason for the actual birth of Saul Goodman. Jimmy promises that "Jimmy McGill, lawyer will be gone, like he never existed." It's possible that at some point Chuck succumbs to the temptation of extorting Jimmy. Jimmy then lives up the letter, but not the spirit, of the agreement. Jimmy McGill never practices law again, but Saul Goodman's law career is born.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking! I was all, "He only said JIMMY wouldn't practice again. Never said nothing about Saul". 

Edited March 8, 2016 by ghoulina

[benteen]

Wasn't Tuco also high when he got into the fight with Mike?  So it's possible he doesn't remember who it was he actually got into the fight with.

[Bryce Lynch]

Let me put it another way.... Tuco would have obviously wanted to kill Mike. We know how crazy he is. Before the Cousins arrived.... how did Mike escape being killed by Tuco, or how did Tuco escape being killed by Mike? I would have to assume that the Salamanca clan had a bit of knowledge about who was working with Gus Fring, and that would have included Mike. Would they not have put 2 and 2 together and figured out that Mike was the one who had the run-in with Tuco years earlier?

Maybe these are rhetorical questions, and I am just thinking aloud. Or maybe it is all something that will be spelled out in future episodes/seasons of Better Call Saul.

I am guessing Tuco didn't remember or recognize Mike. They made a point of saying Mike would not need to testify, so he might just remember some old, bald guy got him arrested. (Old, bald guys seem to be Tuco's Kryptonite). Add the fact that Tucson is a crankhead, and he might not even remember why he went to jail.

Alternatively, Fring and the cartel might have ordered him to leave Mike alone. Nobody except Nacho knows it was a setup, so once Mike joined Fring, the higher ups might just see it as an old beef between 2 of their associates, where Tuco was more out of line than Mike.

Isn't he the best? He didn't even care that he lost a sale, he just really wants to help people. (Help them kill other people, but whatever....)

Lawson is the Nordstrom of illegal gun dealers.

Well, Jimmy didn't lose his job. I'm not sure if I'm happy about that or not. I don't think he cares for it very much. It really sucks that Kim is being punished even worse than him, though. How much of this is she going to take? As much as I dislike Chuck, he was right about the fact that Jimmy can't really see when he has a problem. When he wants to please someone, it's like he has tunnel vision. I just am not sure I understand how Kim got called into the office in the first place. Obviously Cliff Main called up HHM to bitch about the guy they strongly recommended. Did they just ASSUME that Kim knew about the video? I just think it's really unfair that she is getting blamed for something she had no clue about. I kept yelling at her to stand up for herself, say she had no idea! But, of course, she wants to protect Jimmy. Again, how long is she going to keep this up?

It was interesting that right after sending Kim to the "cornfields", Chuck is laid up under a pile of space blankets. Guilt over his part in it? Or manipulation? Did he KNOW Jimmy would be pissed and come calling, and hope that having a "setback" would keep him off his back? Maybe a bit of both. As much as Chuck wants to stand tall on his morals and ethics, he sure seems to have a lot of deep guilt over how he treats people. That's the read I get anyhow. Or maybe he has no guilt at all and it's all one long con. I cannot stand the guy, yet he fascinates me.

The whole thing with Nacho-Mike-Tuco was very interesting as well. As much as Mike may want to step up his game, to better provide for those girls, I think it may take him a long time to become a killer. Well, he already killed the cops who murdered his son. But maybe that's part of it. Maybe he's afraid of what he'll become. Will he end up being any better than those two?

His plan was very clever, and shows again how well Mike can read people and situations. He really has that knack for knowing how things will go down. But I just don't know if this was the right solution. It wasn't really what Nacho wanted, although he didn't seem overly pissed about the results. But Tuco is still out there, and this is a guy who doesn't forget those who have wronged him. We shall see.

Stellar performances by all, though. It was very fun to watch.

I'm sorry, but I totally missed Krazy 8. What scene was he in?

Krazy 8 was the drug dealer giving the cash to Tuco (and getting the "lie detector" treatment) in the Taco joint. He was wearing a shirt with "Tampico" on the front left.

I had to rewind and double check to make sure it was him. He looked much younger than in BB.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Bryce Lynch

[ghoulina]

Krazy 8 was the drug dealer giving the cash to Tuco (and getting the "lie detector" treatment) in the Taco joint. He was wearing a shirt with "Tampico" on the front left.

 

Thanks! I figured that was the only conceivable person it could be, but damn. He does look younger now than he was back then! He seemed a bit harrier too? I'm sure I'll realize it right away on rewatch. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Was Krazy-8 the new-ish distributor who gave Tuco the money (and got the evil stare back in return)? I don't recall seeing anyone else with Tuco and Nacho other than him. Maybe I would have realized who it was if he'd been eating a crust-less sandwich!

Yes, that was Domingo in his best Tampico Furniture shirt.

They should have done it in a sandwich shop so he could cut off his crusts. Maybe next time

[ShadowFacts]

 

I am guessing Tuco didn't remember or recognize Mike. They made a point of saying Mike would not need to testify, so he might just remember some old, bald guy got him arrested. (Old, bald guys seem to be Tuco's Kryptonite). Add the fact that Tucson is a crankhead, and he might not even remember why he went to jail.

 

He might not remember him, but then again, Mike is sort of a memorable figure.  Even if he didn't testify, Mike's name would have to be in the record.  If Tuco is going to prison for 5 to 10 years, he's going to have at least some sober time in there, and I don't make him out to be a water under the bridge type. 

 

Who knew Nacho was such a chatterbox?  I was kind of surprised at him going deeply into the story of the biker drug dealer Tuco killed.  I mean I know it was exposition as to how volatile Tuco is and that Nacho is afraid he will be the next victim, but I kind of like Nacho better as a man of few words. 

 

[Primetimer]

And Nacho gets to sit in on a master class in ends justifying means.

Read the story

[LuciaMia]

'Krazy 8 was the drug dealer giving the cash to Tuco'

***********

Man, that was one creepy/scary scene with Tuco staring down the dealer. Kinda made me sympathize with Nacho's feelings.

[benteen]

Apparently Tuco's murder of the biker is also mentioned by Hank in BB Season 2.

[Blakeston]

Last season, Mike told Playuh that he's known bad cops and good criminals. Lawson seems like a perfect example of a good criminal.

I've said it before, I'll say it again . . . . Nacho is one fine lookin' drug dealer. . .

It's funny - before BCS, when I saw that actor play an annoying, pathetic character on Orphan Black, I thought of him as goofy-looking, if not flat-out unattractive.

I now feel quite differently!

[Ottis]

I'd like this show much better if it was Better Call Mike. I don't care about Saul's brother. I don't care about his time with a legit law agency. I want him to become Saul. I want him to hire Francessca and use Mike as his enforcer. I don't care about Jimmy and his relationship with Kim. I don't care about his time with a big time law firm. I know this stuff is doomed by canon.

 

 

While I don't mind those plot directions, I do agree that they are all irrelevant now as Jimmy has shown he isn't "breaking bad" - he has made poor decisions his entire life. You can hang the albatross around Chuck and his assholery if you want, and even have Jimmy spend the night to keep an eye on Chuck so that Jimmy looks like a good guy, but it is Jimmy, and Jimmy alone, who loves the exciting life of the flim-flam man and also enjoys sticking it to people who he thinks view themselves as above others. It's Jimmy's choice, always has been. We're just watching him find new avenues for the same behavior. In that sense, it's less Walter White and more a story of a con man.

[xyzzy]

I think I'm more inclined to view Jimmy with empathy than many people I've seen on tv show forums, reddit, etc. I'm not a lawyer, but back when I started working in corporate jobs I learned very early on that it's usually easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and there were many, many occasions where I just did the thing and told the bosses later. It didn't always work, but sometimes the only way to get things actually done is to just do them without having 823 meetings. It seems to me that Jimmy is between a rock and a hard place--he's in charge of client engagement, not allowed to solicit (obviously), and required to rely on tepid mailers that everyone throws in the trash the moment they arrive. If he can't actually acquire new clients, he will be fired. And Jimmy's desire to do a commercial was even somewhat well-received. In his situation, I can't say for sure that I wouldn't have just tested the waters to see if a perfectly legal, cheap, and engaging commercial would get results. And, honestly, Jimmy knew that the old bats weren't going to pay any attention to a "Do you or your loved ones have mesothelioma" style commercial, perfectly tuned gradient background swirl or not.

 

Where Jimmy is slimy in this situation is his lies to those close to him. He wanted to maintain the illusion that he was a golden boy at his new firm and show that he was willing to follow the rules, so he outright lied to Kim to keep her from chastising him for not working on the commercial with the partners. But I even have some empathy for him there--Kim explicitly told him she didn't want to hear anything more about his shady dealings. The one thing I can't really forgive him for is the con he pulls when he hangs up with his very angry boss. That was the moment to tell Kim that he'd lied so she wouldn't be blindsided at work. He knows her well enough to know that she refuses to appear weak and she'll always protect Jimmy, so there's no way she was going to tell the partners that Jimmy had lied to her.

 

So I'm still in "fuck Chuck" land. Hypocrisy drives me absolutely insane. While he's screaming at Jimmy that he's like an alcoholic that doesn't know when to quit he misses the fact that he literally controls the behavior of everyone around him with his "sensitivity" to EMF. Every last one of his enablers knows that he has OCD and phobic anxiety, and his refusal to see the truth about himself makes me far less empathetic towards him. Jimmy is exactly right when he asks if his partner can still drink water with Chuck's hand up his ass. Chuck's manipulativeness strikes me as far more pernicious than Jimmy's because very smart people fall in line for him and Jimmy's shtick is really only effective against the naive and/or chemically altered.

 

One thing I'm curious about, though. Recently, a friend of mine said he tried to find an online law degree program and came up with nothing, so he asked me to use my google-fu to figure out if such things exist. It turns out that there is exactly one ABA approved online law degree program (in Minnesota), and that there is only one state in the US who will allow lawyers to sit for the bar without a degree from an ABA approved program. That state is California, not New Mexico. Didn't Jimmy say he got his law degree from the University of American Samoa via correspondence and sat for the bar a couple of times? I don't know how Jimmy is even a lawyer in New Mexico.

[chick binewski]

Would love Lawson to appear as a semi-regular. He can buddy up with Mike and hijinks will ensue.

I really, really miss Jim Beaver on Supernatural.

[TVFan17]

Thanks! I figured that was the only conceivable person it could be, but damn. He does look younger now than he was back then! He seemed a bit harrier too? I'm sure I'll realize it right away on rewatch. 

 

I agree -- I think Krazy 8 has aged better than anyone else, because he is older now (in real life) than when we first met him on BB, and yet he looks younger.  He is Benjamin Button.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Sherry67

[SignGuy77]

Would love Lawson to appear as a semi-regular. He can buddy up with Mike and hijinks will ensue.

I really, really miss Jim Beaver on Supernatural.

I understand your wish for more of Lawson, but "hijinx" is the last thing he an Mike want ensuing due to their actions.

[Ronin Jackson]

I think one of the reasons Krazy 8 looks younger is because the actor has a naturally fresh faced, nice guy look. When he played Krazy 8 in the first season of BB they used the makeup to make him look more like a hardened criminal, which they didn't use years later for "young" Krazy 8.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Who knew Nacho was such a chatterbox?  I was kind of surprised at him going deeply into the story of the biker drug dealer Tuco killed.  I mean I know it was exposition as to how volatile Tuco is and that Nacho is afraid he will be the next victim, but I kind of like Nacho better as a man of few words.

At some point in the future, being too talkative may get Nacho or someone close to him in trouble, and he'll learn to be more discrete.

[Ohwell]

Deep down in her heart of hearts, Kim knew that Jimmy was who he was--a con man.   Maybe a lovable con man, but a con man nonetheless.   So, while I understand her flipping out, I just can't drum up much sympathy for her.  

[SignGuy77]

Re: how does Jimmy practice law in NM when in real life he could not ...

Answer: Fiction.

[AuntiePam]

I love how Mike and Jimmy are both such good planners -- manipulators -- con men.  I worried about the cops arriving too soon, but figured maybe Mike knew which precinct to call.  He didn't dial 911 -- he dialed more than three numbers.  But even if the cops got there earlier, they'd still have Tuco with a gun.  The worst that could happen was Mike getting beat up for no reason.  Then on to Plan B.

[Bcharmer]

Did anyone recognize Kaylie's stuffed animal? The battery operated pig? I was almost as happy to see that as I was to see Krazy 8!  A much more subtle Easter Egg, for sure. It was used on BrBa by Mike as a distraction at the front door, while he snuck around and entered from the back.  Sorry, I can't remember the episode, but most of you will know what I'm talking about.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Bcharmer

[Eyes High]

I'd like this show much better if it was Better Call Mike. I don't care about Saul's brother. I don't care about his time with a legit law agency. I want him to become Saul. I want him to hire Francessca and use Mike as his enforcer. I don't care about Jimmy and his relationship with Kim. I don't care about his time with a big time law firm. I know this stuff is doomed by canon. I do want to know what happened between him and Nacho, but everything else is so boring.

 

I guess that's the problem of this show in a nutshell. You know that Jimmy's efforts to stay on the straight and narrow will fail. You know that Jimmy, Mike, Tuco and Krazy 8 are not going to die, which tends to deflate the tension of any situations where their lives appear to be in peril. You know that Jimmy and Kim's friendship is doomed.

 

The show, in that anyone familiar with Breaking Bad knows the "ending" going in, is kind of like every movie about every historical event or historical figure of any note. Why bother, if we know how it ends? The answer, I think, is that the "how" of something happening can be just as interesting as the "what" of how it all ends up. Wanting to skip all the "boring" stuff to get to the end result of Jimmy's embrace of Saul Goodman and criminality is like fastforwarding through The Godfather to get to the scene where Michael closes the door. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Eyes High

[SailorGirl]

Last season, Mike told Playuh that he's known bad cops and good criminals. Lawson seems like a perfect example of a good criminal.

It's funny - before BCS, when I saw that actor play an annoying, pathetic character on Orphan Black, I thought of him as goofy-looking, if not flat-out unattractive.

I now feel quite differently!

 

Me too -- he was not attractive at ALL on Orphan Black. I was actually surprised that it was the same actor! That's a credit to his talent that he can play two similar but completely different characters and make one hot and the other pathetic!  

 

[benteen]

Deep down in her heart of hearts, Kim knew that Jimmy was who he was--a con man.   Maybe a lovable con man, but a con man nonetheless.   So, while I understand her flipping out, I just can't drum up much sympathy for her.  

 

Exactly.  She knows what she is and she still decided to cover him and her career took a serious blow.  She's choosing to jump down an unreliable rabbit hole knowing the risks.

[FortKnox]

Glad I'm not the only one that didn't realize that was Krazy 8. He looked familiar but, I just couldn't place cause the actor looks younger.

Man I love this forum. It helps me out.

[ElDosEquis]

5 to 10 gives Nacho a nice long time to figure things out. Especially if it's closer to 10. And especially if the place is not "crawling with Salamancas."

less, with good behavior

[ShellSeeker]

That's exactly what I was thinking! I was all, "He only said JIMMY wouldn't practice again. Never said nothing about Saul". 

 

Yep, that's what I thought too. He said, "James McGill, Esquire will cease to exist." I wondered if that was the moment Saul Goodman was born.

 

I love Nacho, but sometimes I find him distracting because he looks like my daughter's martial arts teacher. LOL.

[Pike Ludwell]

Krazy 8 could be a way to get Hank into the show. Krazy 8 was a DEA informant in BB (6 years after this BCS appearance). Maybe we'll see how he gets with the DEA, and that should involve Hank.

[TVFan17]

Krazy 8 could be a way to get Hank into the show. Krazy 8 was a DEA informant in BB (6 years after this BCS appearance). Maybe we'll see how he gets with the DEA, and that should involve Hank.

 

I've always thought that, out of all the BB characters who could guest star or make cameos on BCS, Hank and Gomez would be right up there near the top of the list because of their work on certain cases that involve people that Mike or Jimmy/Saul (or Krazy 8!) may deal with.  Dean Norris has always been a bit cagey and evasive when asked about appearing on BCS, even to the point of downright dismissing it, but I think that Gilligan, Gould and company are doing a very good job of keeping things secret and plugging any possible leaks.  I had no idea that Tuco would even be back so soon, if ever, so that was quite a surprise!

Edited March 8, 2016 by Sherry67

[Uncle Benzene]

less, with good behavior

 

Heh. You're familiar with Tuco Salamanca, right? ;)

[RCharter]

Heh. You're familiar with Tuco Salamanca, right? ;)

LOL....good behavior = getting someone else to confess to whatever he does in prison :)

[ShadowFacts]

I'm glad Tuco is going to be offscreen (presumably) for a long time, because I can't stand him.  He is not amusing or interesting to me, he is the Donald Trump of Albuquerque drug dealers.  Off he goes.  At least I hope we don't see him dealing with anyone on prison visiting days. 

[Umbelina]

I think one of the reasons Krazy 8 looks younger is because the actor has a naturally fresh faced, nice guy look. When he played Krazy 8 in the first season of BB they used the makeup to make him look more like a hardened criminal, which they didn't use years later for "young" Krazy 8.

Also, look at the lighting of that scene.  Harsh, daytime light with fairly deep shadows on Tuco and Nacho's faces, emphasizing every wrinkle.  Krazy 8 in flattering even semi-shadow.

 

 

One thing I'm curious about, though. Recently, a friend of mine said he tried to find an online law degree program and came up with nothing, so he asked me to use my google-fu to figure out if such things exist. It turns out that there is exactly one ABA approved online law degree program (in Minnesota), and that there is only one state in the US who will allow lawyers to sit for the bar without a degree from an ABA approved program. That state is California, not New Mexico. Didn't Jimmy say he got his law degree from the University of American Samoa via correspondence and sat for the bar a couple of times? I don't know how Jimmy is even a lawyer in New Mexico.

 

Interesting. Since Better Call Saul takes place in 2002, do you think there is any chance the law has changed since then?  I think "University of American Samoa" was more of a funny joke in Breaking Bad, so they just had to do with it in BCS.  Ha.

[xyzzy]

Interesting. Since Better Call Saul takes place in 2002, do you think there is any chance the law has changed since then?  I think "University of American Samoa" was more of a funny joke in Breaking Bad, so they just had to do with it in BCS.  Ha.

 

I read a few articles about it. Apparently it took an insane amount of effort to get the ABA to even look at online/remote law degrees with any seriousness. There are other paths--you can get law-adjacent degrees or certificates and then be "sponsored" by a practicing lawyer in a closely scrutinized fashion and then sit for the bar in a few states, but it seems that the ABA has had a stranglehold on education approval for some time. And even the Minnesota degree, which was approved just in the last few years, requires six or eight weeks of intense capstone study at the end of each semester on location at the campus. I actually had no idea this was a thing--it's not terribly unusual for doctors and veterinarians to get medical degrees in other countries and then get licensed in the US, but it seems that the law is quite different.

 

Obviously, the University of American Samoa is fictitious, but I always assumed it was code for remote study. Apparently this isn't actually much of a thing in law degrees.

[Bannon]

Man, this show writes characters better than 99% of what appears or has appeared on television. The writers have travelled some distance to paint Jimmy sympathetically, since the show began, but this week they gave a close up to Jimmy's warts, the ones that would one day cause him to suggest that Jesse be handled like a problem dog. For a conman at heart, Jimmy sure had trouble sometimes, when not overtly working a mark, having the ability to empathize with others. He's just mystified as to why the partners are so mad at him, when if he could have faked some sincere contrition, the fact that the tactic worked brilliantly might have gained some protection for him eventually. Nope, he's gotta keep humpin' the results, which just turns the partners off more.

 

Of course, the inability to empathize is why he didn't try to give Kim a heads up until it was too late. And then Chuck, A-hole that he is,  said some very accurate things about Jimmy's character. This show just doesn't do white hat/black hat character development, and it's great for that reason, among others.

 

Filling out Mike's backstory further, as a professionally violent man, was deftly done. I have a feeling that in addition to sniper kills, Mike used the garrote in Vietnam, which we later saw poolside in the famous poisoned tequila BB scene.  Also, the sign of a professionally violent man is not just being able to competently inflict damage, but also the ability to take a trimming, when it is called for. Tuco probably hasn't had people willing and able to stay standing, when Tuco wants them on the ground, in many years. Eventually, my bet is that some violence executed with ruthless precision is what forms the very respectful professional relationship between Mike and Gus. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Bannon

[Ottis]

I think I'm more inclined to view Jimmy with empathy than many people I've seen on tv show forums, reddit, etc. I'm not a lawyer, but back when I started working in corporate jobs I learned very early on that it's usually easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and there were many, many occasions where I just did the thing and told the bosses later. It didn't always work, but sometimes the only way to get things actually done is to just do them without having 823 meetings.

 

 

As a corporate veteran myself, that's the cliche of people without much to lose - "better to ask for forgiveness than permission." No one who has a lot to lose (or who might lose at all, because their jobs might really be affected), says that. It's a calculated risk, when you go down that road, and Jimmy had not only his job, which he knew was already a stretch for him given his personal behavior, but also his relationship with Kim AND her own career, on the line. But he did the commercial anyway, because he's basically an addict - not to drugs, but to the con, to the thrill of bucking authority, to his ability to get others to believe him and forgive him. He's playing in a different league now, though.

 

I love to watch Jimmy, and he does have a heart. But he earns the bad things that happen to him, so I don't have much empathy nor sympathy, and that has lessened my connection to the show.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Ottis

[Dev F]

LOL....good behavior = getting someone else to confess to whatever he does in prison :)

 

Heh, yep. And it seems like he probably did do some violence on the inside. In the same Breaking Bad scene in which Hank mentions Tuco's suspected murder of Dog Paulson, he also says that "we're pretty sure he knifed a Mexican national in '03." I'm sure it wasn't the original intention, but it seems like that attack would now have to take place in prison -- unless the writers decide to do another episode next season in which Tuco gets early release somehow, and our heroes have to frame him for the stabbing to get his parole revoked. :p

[monagatuna]

I read a few articles about it. Apparently it took an insane amount of effort to get the ABA to even look at online/remote law degrees with any seriousness. There are other paths--you can get law-adjacent degrees or certificates and then be "sponsored" by a practicing lawyer in a closely scrutinized fashion and then sit for the bar in a few states, but it seems that the ABA has had a stranglehold on education approval for some time. And even the Minnesota degree, which was approved just in the last few years, requires six or eight weeks of intense capstone study at the end of each semester on location at the campus. I actually had no idea this was a thing--it's not terribly unusual for doctors and veterinarians to get medical degrees in other countries and then get licensed in the US, but it seems that the law is quite different.

 

Obviously, the University of American Samoa is fictitious, but I always assumed it was code for remote study. Apparently this isn't actually much of a thing in law degrees.

The law is stubbornly decades behind technology. This doesn't surprise me. I only recently found out that my state still allows for apprenticeships rather than law schools as a precursor to the bar exam. It's rare, and more of a pain in the behind than just going to law school, but if cards are played right, can save you megabucks in the long-term.

 

I even fruitlessly looked for ways in which Jimmy could have waived into NM via CA, but the two do not practice reciprocity. No dice; looks like we are going to have to rely on creative license for this one. 

[RCharter]

I read a few articles about it. Apparently it took an insane amount of effort to get the ABA to even look at online/remote law degrees with any seriousness. There are other paths--you can get law-adjacent degrees or certificates and then be "sponsored" by a practicing lawyer in a closely scrutinized fashion and then sit for the bar in a few states, but it seems that the ABA has had a stranglehold on education approval for some time. And even the Minnesota degree, which was approved just in the last few years, requires six or eight weeks of intense capstone study at the end of each semester on location at the campus. I actually had no idea this was a thing--it's not terribly unusual for doctors and veterinarians to get medical degrees in other countries and then get licensed in the US, but it seems that the law is quite different.

 

Obviously, the University of American Samoa is fictitious, but I always assumed it was code for remote study. Apparently this isn't actually much of a thing in law degrees.

The supply of attorneys is far greater than the demand for attorneys right now.  IMO, the ABA should be looking to pull accreditation from at least 1/4 of the law schools out there.  As people realize that a law degree doesn't particularly mean a cushy 6 figure firm job (it does in some cases of course), fewer people are applying to law school.  Which means law schools are filling seats with less than qualified applicants, rather than simply lowering class size.   I don't think its quite the same for doctors and vets.  Fewer people even want to go to trial because of the cost, which means even less trial work for attorneys.  And of course there is a love for the old Socratic method, and I think its hard to really get the feel of that in a non-traditional classroom environment.

 

 

As a corporate veteran myself, that's the cliche of people without much to lose - "better to ask for forgiveness than permission." No one who has a lot to lose (or who might lose at all, because their jobs might really be affected), says that. It's a calculated risk, when you go down that road, and Jimmy had not only his job, which he knew was already a stretch for him given his personal behavior, but also his relationship with Kim AND her own career, on the line. But he did the commercial anyway, because he's basically an addict - not to drugs, but to the con, to the thrill of bucking authority, to his ability to get others to believe him and forgive him. He's playing in a different league now, though.

 

I love to watch Jimmy, and he does have a heart. But he earns the bad things that happen to him, so I don't have much empathy nor sympathy, and that has lessened my connection to the show.

I think you're right, but I also think there is a risk taking personality type, and if they are successful they have gotten there because they haven't asked for permission and its all worked out in the end.  And so they have been conditioned to take risks and not ask permission because its their personality and its always been good for them.

 

I think Jimmy was just so confident in his ability to "sell it" that he didn't consider a plan B where he wasn't able to sell it.  He was certain that the success of the commercial would make everything okay.  Every other one of his stunts have worked because of his ability to sell it, or sell the results so that the means to get there weren't such a big deal.  And, even if Jimmy did consider that he wouldn't be able to sell it, in his mind, the worst that was going to happen was that he was going to get fired.  Not that he would be (relatively) okay and Kim would have to suffer.  I think if he had foreseen that, he wouldn't have gotten her involved at all. To me, Jimmy, in no way, considered the possibility that the ad would be successful and he would still be in trouble.  When the female partner said "and don't pretend like you don't know what this is all about" I wanted to say "with all due respect lady, I don't think he really knows what this is all about."

[LoneHaranguer]

 

Apparently it took an insane amount of effort to get the ABA to even look at online/remote law degrees with any seriousness.

Could Jimmy have found a local law school that would give him transfer credit for his remote study at UoAS? Then he could have officially finished there and taken the bar without a problem.

[J-Man]

One of the first commercials that aired during this episode in my market (LA) was for an ambulance-chasing law firm looking for nursing home abuse cases. 

[Tim Thomason]

Yeah, when Jimmy told Chuck about the University of American Samoa last season, he gave him a look and confirmed that it was a "correspondence school." In the Breaking Bad universe, the ABA must've accredited the UAS, and the UAS must do alot of its business via correspondence (which makes sense, because the real-world American Samoa doesn't have any four-year or above colleges due to the low population on the island).

 

Maybe their accreditation was pulled shortly afterward, due to their overreliance on correspondence studies. 

 

I like the Lawson scenes. I remember hearing one of Vince Gilligan's early ideas for the central character of Breaking Bad was for him to be an arms dealer (before switching over to drug dealer instead), so I wonder if Lawson was in development before anyone else on the show.

 

Walt's birthday was eventually settled to be September 7, 1959, placing the Breaking Bad series (despite some early continuity errors) entirely between September 7, 2009 and September 7, 2011. So, since it's still 2002 (last seen on Pryce's registration), that puts Tuco in prison for a maximum of seven years. Maybe he'll get out on bail or something (he should have enough cash) and the trial delayed until 2003 to give him time to stab that Mexican national, although I don't think Mike was counting on that. Maybe Hank got his dates confused, or maybe Tuco ordered the Mexican national to be stabbed to death from prison.

[xyzzy]

To me, Jimmy, in no way, considered the possibility that the ad would be successful and he would still be in trouble.  When the female partner said "and don't pretend like you don't know what this is all about" I wanted to say "with all due respect lady, I don't think he really knows what this is all about."

This crystallizes exactly how I was feeling about these scenes. Jimmy works incredibly hard for a guy who turns into a criminal lawyer. Much of what he's done so far is ethically (and even legally) sketchy, but he mostly seems to break rules that he thinks are dumb and/or irrelevant in order to get results. When he begs his brother to extort him, there is a brief look of confusion on his face when Chuck explains that Jimmy's request is actually illegal. Then he just digs in, plowing forward stubbornly due to his anger and frustration. What's funny is that I actually think that Jimmy is very bright and even a good attorney, but he has zero reverence for the law as an institution of ideals. Chuck's completely right about this. But I still hate Chuck because he's never, ever willing to turn that discerning lens of truth on himself. Jimmy at least seems to be pretty self-aware, both on BCS and BrBa.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think Jimmy was just so confident in his ability to "sell it" that he didn't consider a plan B where he wasn't able to sell it.  He was certain that the success of the commercial would make everything okay.  Every other one of his stunts have worked because of his ability to sell it, or sell the results so that the means to get there weren't such a big deal.  And, even if Jimmy did consider that he wouldn't be able to sell it, in his mind, the worst that was going to happen was that he was going to get fired.  Not that he would be (relatively) okay and Kim would have to suffer.  I think if he had foreseen that, he wouldn't have gotten her involved at all. To me, Jimmy, in no way, considered the possibility that the ad would be successful and he would still be in trouble.  When the female partner said "and don't pretend like you don't know what this is all about" I wanted to say "with all due respect lady, I don't think he really knows what this is all about."

 

Yes.  He doesn't care about that job, that firm, he never wanted to work there, he said as much to Chuck.  He doesn't care about fitting in.  For me it was established when he left Chicago after Chet's funeral, and it's been reinforced ever since.  He cares about Kim.  He likes manipulating people and doing things he wants to do his way, skirting rules and pushing the envelope. 

[shapeshifter]

Tuco is...

the Donald Trump of Albuquerque drug dealers.

Hah! I think Raymond Cruz (the actor who plays Tuco) would probably love the analogy.

[SignGuy77]

One of the first commercials that aired during this episode in my market (LA) was for an ambulance-chasing law firm looking for nursing home abuse cases.

Don't let irony strain your brain-o!

That's awesome.

[Dev F]

Maybe Hank got his dates confused, or maybe Tuco ordered the Mexican national to be stabbed to death from prison.

 

Or maybe the Mexican national was a fellow inmate that Tuco stabbed in prison. If, say, some enemy of the cartel ended up getting shivved in the shower in Tuco's cell block, I could see the DEA suspecting him of taking him out, even if there was no way to prove it.

 

Of course, like I said, I doubt that's what the writers originally intended. The fact that Hank offered no real details about the crime kinda suggests that it happened outside the agency's sphere of influence. Which I guess a state penitentiary would be, but I assume the original implication was that it was something that happened down in Mexico.

[Quilt Fairy]

I listened to the 204 insider podcast today and was astounded to find out that Mike's injuries were 100% CGI, done after the fact. Apparently Jonathan Banks has a problem (an allergy? they really didn't specify) with spirit gum, which is typically used to attach facial appliances.

 

Wouldn't that make for an interesting Face Off challenge: "Contestants, put away your makeup kits, no molds, sculpting or air-brushing today, you're doing it all by computer!"  The contestants would then whine and hope that at least they'd be able to do a monster, zombie or alien, which is all they know how to do, anyhow.