S06.E09: Christmas Day

[AndySmith]

God believe it or not, yes, probably:  Cousin Shamed by Prudery, who it was strongly implied was gay, may not have had a mother available to be in residence as the Dowager anything.  So it seems that Bertie's mother, as the estate agent's mother, likely presided over all the things that the estate would be called upon to do.

 

Yeah but weren't we originally told he would spend lots of time overseas, so would rent out the castle rather often? It would be funny is she was moving back and forth every other week from the castle to her home.

 

When Bertie was first introduced it was as a poor relation to the Marquess, though close enough to act as the agent and apparently fairly good friends. In his own words he didn't have much to offer when he first proposed to Edith so I can assume his immediate family (parents) were not wealthy enough to leave him any considerable fortune. That he was actually first in line to inherit his cousin's title - even if said cousin was expected to have children eventually - is a bit inconsistent with the way he was introduced to us. To even be related to the Marquess would have made the Pellhams a well respected family if nothing else

 

Maybe JF was just making it up as he went along? On the other hand, Bertie's cousin was in his late 30s, not married, no kids, and liked to vacation a lot in Tangier (nudge nudge, wink wink). Chances are, if he was going to have a fake marriage to pop out some potential future heirs, he would have already. If anything, Bertie's mom probably spent her time counting down the days till her husband or son would eventually inherit the title (preferably her husband, so she'd become a Marchioness).

 

I'm going to go with JF making it up as he went along.

Edited March 8, 2016 by AndySmith

[stillshimpy]

Yeah but weren't we originally told he would spend lots of time overseas, so would rent out the castle rather often? It would be funny is she was moving back and forth every other week from the castle to her home.

 

Oh man, that's right.  Yeah, then pretty much an entirely senseless "we have to throw in one last obstacle, enter the would-be-hurdle" plot device.  

 

My recollection of Bertie's introduction is the same as several others, he really presented himself as being a person of modest prospects.   Instead he was one "the heir totally hangs out in tropical climes, isn't married, really doesn't wish to be married and is basically one bad mosquito away from conveniently kicking it" next in line.  

 

Yeah, it is inconsistent, but truly Fellowes seemed to decided that if he was going to let Edith be happy at long last, she'd be happy and favored by fortune on a nearly epic scale.  

[Atlanta]

I accidentally predicted Talbot's car dealership as a joke, hope no one thought it was a spoiler, I had no idea.  Mary may not be proud now but wait till the money starts rolling in, it will make tours of the Abbey seem like a sad joke.

 

I'm ready for the sequel Uncle Jullian, sorry about all the complaining -- not really I loved the complaining, as well as the Edith/Mary  arguments on the forum.  I miss them already.

I would love Henry and Tom's car biz become fabulously successful and be the next Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, etc. According to Wikipedia, Jaguar was founded in 1922 by two men. Let's fudge that a few years and it be Talbot and Branson and they named it Jaguar because Mary's tendency to whip out her claws. lol It becomes a reason that the abbey doesn't go into disrepair. And later, Marigold inherits the magazine and becomes a publishing Grande Dame.

[MakeMeLaugh]

Brancaster Castle gave me the creeps as a residence.  A museum, a historical place to tour and learn about like the Alhambra or something, fine.  But not to live there.  I think Downton is more livable but also way too museum-like for me.  Give me Violet's or Isobel's any day of the week.  Or Mr. Mason's. 

I would be comfortable in Mrs. Patmore's B&B. It really was fun to see so many different types residences presented as they existed in the early twentieth century.

[Eyes High]

I'm glad that Edith pretty much won Downton Abbey, after several seasons of misfortune. The rest? Eh.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Eyes High

[izabella]

Oh man, that's right.  Yeah, then pretty much an entirely senseless "we have to throw in one last obstacle, enter the would-be-hurdle" plot device.  

 

My recollection of Bertie's introduction is the same as several others, he really presented himself as being a person of modest prospects.   Instead he was one "the heir totally hangs out in tropical climes, isn't married, really doesn't wish to be married and is basically one bad mosquito away from conveniently kicking it" next in line.  

 

Yeah, it is inconsistent, but truly Fellowes seemed to decided that if he was going to let Edith be happy at long last, she'd be happy and favored by fortune on a nearly epic scale.  

 

Yes, once we found out Bertie was the new Lord Hexham, it seems extremely odd that no one mentioned he was thisclose to being the Lord of Hexham.  I mean, they went on about how 40 strong men had to die for Henry to inherit any title, but they would not have been aware that Bertie was THE heir to Lord Hexham should he die without children?  I'd expect they would have known it or mentioned it when he first showed up!

[Roseanna]

Yes, once we found out Bertie was the new Lord Hexham, it seems extremely odd that no one mentioned he was thisclose to being the Lord of Hexham.  I mean, they went on about how 40 strong men had to die for Henry to inherit any title, but they would not have been aware that Bertie was THE heir to Lord Hexham should he die without children?  I'd expect they would have known it or mentioned it when he first showed up!

 

Violet could joke about 40 men dying, but if she had done the same with Bertie's cousin, she would have seemed a mercenary (even if one was such, it was another thing to show it). 

 

Irl Crawleys would no doubt have known Bertie's chances to inherit, but they would also known that in that case Edith with her illegitimate daughter had no chances to marry him.   

[Crs97]

 

I would love Henry and Tom's car biz become fabulously successful and be the next Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, etc. According to Wikipedia, Jaguar was founded in 1922 by two men. Let's fudge that a few years and it be Talbot and Branson and they named it Jaguar because Mary's tendency to whip out her claws. lol It becomes a reason that the abbey doesn't go into disrepair. And later, Marigold inherits the magazine and becomes a publishing Grande Dame.

 

Oh my goodness, I was going to look up when Jaguar started because I was thinking it would have been fun for Mary to say that "Talbot Branson Motors" was too long a name and have them discuss a better one, deciding that they should pick a fast animal to go with their fast cars.  That is totally my future for them now!

[blackwing]

I realized after I watched that one of the MANY reasons I wish the show had been well written vs so badly was because I find it so enjoyable to watch a show that doesn't have all the new technology cluttering up the scenes and dialogue - there are so many shows where people are either answering their phones, making a call, texting, whatever - fooling with their tablets that watching a period piece where none of this stuff existed is so much more pleasing than it used to be and I have always loved period pieces - but, damn, why couldn't it have been better written without all the redundancy, etc.  What a shame. 

Completely agree.  I love seeing how people behaved in an age with no TV and no iPhones.  I have watched these people for years now and I've always wondered what they did with all of their time.  I realise that we only see a snippet of their lives, but I have been puzzled about what somebody like Henry, who has no job and no responsibilities, did all day.  So I thought it a bit nice that we see Mary enter their bedroom and he is reading a book.  Albeit sitting on their bed fully dressed and in shoes I believe, which my modern day germaphobe self finds a bit dirty and gross.  I don't recall many scenes of people on this show reading a book, and it seems to me that with no TV, computer, or iPhone, wouldn't books pretty much be all they have to do if they had an hour or so of free time?

 

I loved seeing how the family and the servants adjusted to technology.  The scene of the family getting a wireless, and everyone being enthralled by the music and the sound of the king's voice, were great.  Mrs. Patmore worried that the new gadgets and appliances would put her out of a job.  Anna and the other servants being so excited about Lady Mary's new hairdryer.

 

 

I was very confused about what was going on.  Was Bertie's mother the one who was supposed to make the announcement about their engagement?  I was expecting that Bertie, the new Marquess, would announce his own engagement, so at first I thought she was speaking to shut Bertie up about the engagement.  Then I realized Robert had been urging her to make the announcement so as to stay in Bertie's good graces.

I'm pretty sure that Bertie's mom was at that point still very much against the engagement.  But it was very clear that Bertie was determined to marry Edith, regardless of whether she approved or not.  She got up, said her little speech, and sat down without saying anything particularly nice or kind.  Bertie was glaring at her.  I think he had wanted to know that she unequivocally approved, and when she didn't say anything, he was just going to announce it himself.  That's when Robert told her that if she didn't say anything now, she was going to lose him forever.  Robert wanted her to make the announcement to make it very clear to everyone that she blessed the engagement and was very happy for her son.

[Llywela]

Yes, once we found out Bertie was the new Lord Hexham, it seems extremely odd that no one mentioned he was this close to being the Lord of Hexham.  I mean, they went on about how 40 strong men had to die for Henry to inherit any title, but they would not have been aware that Bertie was THE heir to Lord Hexham should he die without children?  I'd expect they would have known it or mentioned it when he first showed up!

The only reason anyone knew about the 40 strong men thing with regard to Henry was because they specifically asked Lady What's-Her-Name about his prospects when he and Mary took an interest in one another, because Mary is the firstborn and the mother of the heir. They never knew about Bertie's proximity to the Marquess of Hexham because they never bothered to find out, because it was only Edith taking an interest in him, so it never occurred to anyone to wonder if he had any prospects, since a land agent was about as good as they'd ever really expected for her anyway. The difference was all in which sister was involved.

[BrianJ62]

Who would still be alive today from the family and staff? Master George. Could you imagine Mr. Carson transplanted into the 60's?

[kassa]

Could you imagine Mr. Carson transplanted into the 60's?

 

Years ago I remember somebody on this forum (or could have been TwoP) saying that they didn't want the show to go on forever, because the last thing they wanted to contemplate was Lady Mary at the Dowager's age contemplating Elvis.  

[blackwing]

The only reason anyone knew about the 40 strong men thing with regard to Henry was because they specifically asked Lady What's-Her-Name about his prospects when he and Mary took an interest in one another, because Mary is the firstborn and the mother of the heir. They never knew about Bertie's proximity to the Marquess of Hexham because they never bothered to find out, because it was only Edith taking an interest in him, so it never occurred to anyone to wonder if he had any prospects, since a land agent was about as good as they'd ever really expected for her anyway. The difference was all in which sister was involved.

I disagree.... this was an age where everyone was always up in everyone's business about rank, title, etc.  Once they heard that Bertie was the cousin of the Marquess of Hexham, there is absolutely no way that nobody in the family didn't bother to look him up in those books listing all the English lords.  I think it's entirely possible that someone like Carson would have looked him up.  

 

Also, the Dowager or Lady Rosamund or Cora have mostly nothing to do but sit around and meet other ladies for tea.  Cora is involved with the hospital and sees a lot of people now.  Surely at least one person they met would have known about Bertie.  Edith says that he told her and that she knew, and I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have mentioned this to Rosamund, her confidante.

 

If Bertie's cousin was such a big deal that the headline story "English Marquess Dies in Tangiers" made the sandwich board, there's absolutely no way that Bertie's status as heir would not have been something that was more talked about.

 

I think the more likely story is that sometime after season 5 and during the writing of season 6, that Julian Fellowes caved in to all of the fans clamouring for a happy ending for Edith and thus decided to elevate Bertie to Marquess.  If the series had continued beyond this season, I doubt it would have happened this season. 

[PRgal]

Who would still be alive today from the family and staff? Master George. Could you imagine Mr. Carson transplanted into the 60's?

 

George, Sybbie, Marigold, Baby Bates as well as Henry and Mary's fetus could still be alive in 2016.  Imagine a 2016 version centred around H&M's fetus's 90th birthday.  Hahaha.

Edited March 8, 2016 by PRgal

[proserpina65]

The Earl of Grantham's estate could only pass to a male heir because it was entailed that way

For the record, the entail had nothing to do with the estate itself, it had to do with Cora's fortune. It tied her fortune to whoever inherited the title, which at the time of signing would presumably be her son. Without the entail the title and estate would have still gone to a mail heir (Patrick, and then Matthew), but they could have left Cora's money to Mary, which would have meant Matthew would inherit the title without any money and have to sell the estate.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I haven't rewatched any previous seasons, so by this time it's all gotten a bit tangled up for me.

 

So theoretically, Dickie Merton could leave his fortune to Isobel if he predeceased her, and leave nothing to loathsome Larry and his horrible wife but a large and expensive to maintain house, which is probably exactly what Larry and Amelia feared.  In my imagination, this is exactly what will happen.

[sark1624]

I disagree.... this was an age where everyone was always up in everyone's business about rank, title, etc.  Once they heard that Bertie was the cousin of the Marquess of Hexham, there is absolutely no way that nobody in the family didn't bother to look him up in those books listing all the English lords.  I think it's entirely possible that someone like Carson would have looked him up.  

 

Also, the Dowager or Lady Rosamund or Cora have mostly nothing to do but sit around and meet other ladies for tea.  Cora is involved with the hospital and sees a lot of people now.  Surely at least one person they met would have known about Bertie.  Edith says that he told her and that she knew, and I find it hard to believe she wouldn't have mentioned this to Rosamund, her confidante.

 

If Bertie's cousin was such a big deal that the headline story "English Marquess Dies in Tangiers" made the sandwich board, there's absolutely no way that Bertie's status as heir would not have been something that was more talked about.

 

I think the more likely story is that sometime after season 5 and during the writing of season 6, that Julian Fellowes caved in to all of the fans clamouring for a happy ending for Edith and thus decided to elevate Bertie to Marquess.  If the series had continued beyond this season, I doubt it would have happened this season. 

 

Agree in some parts, but we are talking about Edith here, i bet that usually the family didnt take much interest in her life. In a real situation a man like Bertie would have been suitable, even withouth the tittle, because being a estate agent in a place like Brancaster is another thing. Brancaster is inspired in Alnwick Castle, this is a 100.000 acres estate, Downton is inspired in Highclare Castle with 5.000 acres of land; so the job of Bertie was very, very important; also he has a respectable past (being an army officer was a respectable possition for someone related to the landred gentry, the other ocuppation was managing land). Also, in Downton or another estate for that matter, the estate manager didnt live in a cottage like the Bates or the Carson, he lives in more bigger house that showed his status, in other words being the land agent was like being the CEO of some big estate. 

 

Also we must understood the period, after the ww1, was a real crisis in temrs of men shortage for any woman, especially in the upper classes because the death rate was higher in the officers. That leads that many heirs and theirs brothers died in some trench in Europe, so in that time it wasnt rare that some distant cousin inherited the tittle or the estate. 

 

The thing that was odd it was when Edith mentioned Bertie, nobody in the family checked his background, in a real life situation of that time the would go inmediatilly to their Debretts copy and search him and see how was related to the Hexham tittle. Also when Mary spoiled everything, again, the family was more concerned in Mary and her "car mechanic" than betwen Edith and "one of the grandest man in England", i bet that in a real life situation Cora, Violet, Rosamound would have destined 110% of their energies to achieve that Edith could marry Bertie.

 

Also we have to understand the character, from the first moment we see that Bertie is a unasumming person who looks up Edith, also he is very fond of his cousin and that he knows that people in general pitied him, i think that they pitied him because of his personality not because he was stupid of poor. So, when the family knew him they behave like the rest of the people and basically pitied him again, except that praised that he was smart and organized. 

[BrianJ62]

Maybe Carson's head could be put on a robot? I wonder what he think of Kanye West, and reality tv in general.

[Llywela]

I disagree.... this was an age where everyone was always up in everyone's business about rank, title, etc.  Once they heard that Bertie was the cousin of the Marquess of Hexham, there is absolutely no way that nobody in the family didn't bother to look him up in those books listing all the English lords.  I think it's entirely possible that someone like Carson would have looked him up. 

Oh, in real life, to be sure. I'm talking about what we saw on-screen. On-screen we saw the family specifically asking about Henry's prospects, while taking little or no interest in Bertie or Edith's relationship with him whatsoever. And I say this as someone who does not have a horse in the Mary-Edith race - I have both enjoyed and disliked both characters in equal measure over the years. When the Crawleys went to Hexham that time and first met Bertie, he was introduced as 'just the agent we all feel a bit sorry for', and they pretty much instantly wrote him off as no more or less than that and never thought about it again. When Edith became friendly with him, they still thought no more about it, because they already had that impression of him that was never re-visited. They were caught out, in short, by their own blinkers.

[proserpina65]

Which made me realize that I had not been SOLD on him as much of a glamorous anything .. If he were the Mario Andretti of his day, much less a Lucky Lindy, with that sort of "oh gosh" name recognition, I missed it

 

I got the glamorous bit, but I don't think he was meant to be famous.  How famous would any race driver have been then?  (I don't know much about the history of auto racing, so I'm not really sure.)  My problem is that his character never seemed to go any deeper than glamorous race car driver.  It was all surface with nothing to back it up.

[kassygreene]

Apart from using Henry's displacing "poor Mr. Pelham" and/or Atticus from the shooting, the Crawleys weren't paying much attention to a mere estate agent.  While they were chit-chatting during their dance, Edith asked and Bertie answered that he'd been the estate agent for about 18 months, and the Marquess was a second (or third) cousin who had offered him the job when Bertie found himself at loose ends.  He said nothing about being the heir, but I thought to myself at the time Aha!  JF is going to have him inherit the title and marry Edith, probably in that order.  After all, Matthew was a third cousin, and absolutely did not spend his life expecting to inherit until after the Titanic sank.

[proserpina65]

It's the best anemia ever!  Although if the diagnosis comes from Dr. Clarkson, wouldn't you get a third and even a fourth opinion?  It was touching that the villagers were so concerned that he wouldn't be there to treat them. 

 

So who's going to take care of that perfectly nice elderly couple now that Thomas has deserted them?

I rewatched this last night and discovered that Dr. Clarkson initially only verified that the symptoms Dickie described matched the diagnosis of pernicious anemia received from the Harley Street specialists.  Dr. Clarkson didn't run tests himself until Dickie came to the hospital because he didn't feel bad enough to be dying; those tests showed that the Harley Street diagnosis was wrong.  So score two for the silver fox and zero for expensive Harley Street doctors: Dickie's anemia and Sybil's eclampsia.

[s-k-s]

Didn't Dr. Clarkson misdoagnose Matthews spinal injury?

[Llywela]

Didn't Dr. Clarkson misdoagnose Matthews spinal injury?

Sort of, although he later claimed he'd always suspected recovery may be possible, but didn't want to get anyone's hopes up in case he was wrong - and in the days before x-rays and MRI scanning, spinal injuries must have been much harder to assess with any real accuracy. Also, Clarkson would hardly have been the first doctor Matthew saw after his injury, but merely the latest in the chain that brought him home from France.

 

Clarkson did misdiagnose someone in season one, though - it was one of Isobel's early battles in the show.

[proserpina65]

Sort of, although he later claimed he'd always suspected recovery may be possible, but didn't want to get anyone's hopes up in case he was wrong - and in the days before x-rays and MRI scanning, spinal injuries must have been much harder to assess with any real accuracy. Also, Clarkson would hardly have been the first doctor Matthew saw after his injury, but merely the latest in the chain that brought him home from France.

 

Clarkson did misdiagnose someone in season one, though - it was one of Isobel's early battles in the show.

Oh, to be sure, he did.  Which makes that contest: Isobel 1, Clarkson 0.

[PRgal]

Maybe Carson's head could be put on a robot? I wonder what he think of Kanye West, and reality tv in general.

 

As a robot?  He'd crash every time Kanye Tweets/says something. 

[Artymouse]

Oh, to be sure, he did.  Which makes that contest: Isobel 1, Clarkson 0.

 

That's true, but I still kinda wish she'd married Clarkson instead of Dickie. I like both characters, and Dickie does seem to be a good fit, but Clarkson has the advantage of looks and that awesome accent. 

 

But then that would have deprived us of Dickie's retort to his snotty daughter-in-law when she says something about Isobel coming to take him away, and he replies that it sounds marvelous.

[Constantinople]

Who would still be alive today from the family and staff? Master George.

 

After deciding that he had been betrayed by Master George, Michael Corleone had him whacked.

 

It can't be a coincidence that Master George was holding an orange in the previous episode.

[helenamonster]

But then how would they get past having to present Marigold's birth certificate with Edith's name on it? Actually...whose names are on the birth certificate?

 

Edith for sure is listed as the mother, but I don't think they ever said whether Michael was listed as the father.

 

What church did edith get married in? That huge cathedral is not the same place where Strallen dumped her.

 

I'm pretty sure it was the same church, the one they've used for all the weddings. Father Travis was the one who married them.

 

I also thought Anna had a baby way too quickly. When my son was born, my water broke but the baby didn't arrive for another 24 hours. I think TV too often uses the water-breaking as shorthand for "baby will be born in the next five minutes."

 

When my nana went into labor with my aunt, my aunt came out within the hour. She had barely gotten situated at the hospital when whoops, there she was.

 

I mentioned how much Marigold looks like Bertie just as an aside (and as a reason Bertie's mom might bond with her), and it probably was just coincidental casting, but I could certainly imagine rumors that Bertie is the father. Conceivable imo that he and Edith could "adopt" her and possibly never even tell Marigold she was adopted (not that unusual to keep that a secret from the child)--more believable imo than Matthew's late fiancee's father leaving his estate to Matthew in the nick of time to save DA!

 

I still don't see how anyone would believe this. Bertie and Edith didn't even meet until Marigold was a toddler. In a society where everyone is up each other's butts about this kind of thing, I doubt anyone would think it was the case. Besides, if Bertie had been the father and Edith had gotten pregnant with Marigold before they were married, they would have had a shotgun wedding. But to get married when she's almost 3 years old? Yeah, no one's gonna buy it.

 

Brancaster Castle gave me the creeps as a residence.  A museum, a historical place to tour and learn about like the Alhambra or something, fine.  But not to live there.  I think Downton is more livable but also way too museum-like for me.  Give me Violet's or Isobel's any day of the week.  Or Mr. Mason's. 

 

How do feel about it as a school for witchcraft and wizardry? ;)

 

Oh my goodness, I was going to look up when Jaguar started because I was thinking it would have been fun for Mary to say that "Talbot Branson Motors" was too long a name and have them discuss a better one, deciding that they should pick a fast animal to go with their fast cars.  That is totally my future for them now!

 

And maybe some day a young man named Lane could come by and express interest in one day purchasing one, once he'd established himself in the advertising business and was making money.

 

Too soon?

 

Completely agree.  I love seeing how people behaved in an age with no TV and no iPhones.  I have watched these people for years now and I've always wondered what they did with all of their time.  I realise that we only see a snippet of their lives, but I have been puzzled about what somebody like Henry, who has no job and no responsibilities, did all day.  So I thought it a bit nice that we see Mary enter their bedroom and he is reading a book.  Albeit sitting on their bed fully dressed and in shoes I believe, which my modern day germaphobe self finds a bit dirty and gross.  I don't recall many scenes of people on this show reading a book, and it seems to me that with no TV, computer, or iPhone, wouldn't books pretty much be all they have to do if they had an hour or so of free time?

 

We do see them reading a lot, especially the servants. Not just books but newspapers and magazines as well. Also, without the technologies that we have now for communication, like iPhones and the internet, they probably also spent a lot of time writing letters, as not everyone even hand a telephone yet.

[guilfoyleatpp]

I don't think Dr. Clarkson misdiagnosed someone as much as he was reluctant to try what he considered to be a new procedure to treat someone's water on the heart issue (I can't recall the name of it now). They stopped the heart, drained the water, and used adrenaline to restart the heart.

 

I also wondered why Edith didn't get married at Brancaster, other than that it would be difficult for us to see Mrs. Patmore working in the kitchen with Daisy and Andy and also probably Anna wouldn't have gone.

But whatever, waving hand. 

 

As PP mentioned, I sincerely hope that Dickie leaves his fortune to Isobel and the estate and title to his awful son.

 

And, interestingly, Henry was the rude, clumsy one at the shooting party when he and Mary first met, taking Atticus' place.  Bertie was quite polite, behaved well, and also humble. He really was such an ideal gentleman.

Edited March 8, 2016 by guilfoyleatpp

[BrianJ62]

Does the Bates son become Master Bates? poor kud. I'm not trying to be rude just curious.

Edited March 8, 2016 by BrianJ62

[blackwing]

I was surprised to see Larry Grey in this episode.  I was convinced that Amelia had stuffed his body in a closet somewhere and claimed that he went hunting and never came back.  Can someone remind me whatever happened to Lord Merton's other son?  Where does he live?

 

I too want Lord Merton to leave Isobel all of the money.  I also want Larry and Amelia to be blessed only with daughters, and for the other son to be childless.  Then when Larry and Amelia run out of money, they will be begging Lady Mary Talbot to let their daughter marry Lord George, and to have Downton absorb their house into its estate.

 

Larry was the one that drugged Tom's drink some seasons back, right?  I'm surprised there weren't more consequences after that.  After that bit of nastiness and the nastiness towards Isobel, I have to wonder how he can even have the gall to be in the same room as the Crawleys.

[PRgal]

Does the Bates son become Master Bates? poor kud. I'm not trying to be rude just curious.

 

I was once taught that all boys under a certain age were Master so-and-so, regardless of social class.  When my (now) husband and I were addressing envelopes for our wedding, I toyed with the idea of calling our ring bearer (who was five at the time) Master FIRSTNAME.  He thought I was crazy, so all minors were first name only on invitations. 

[caligirl50]

 

I thought for sure we were going to find out that Lord Merton was being slow-poisoned by his son and D-I-L.  Especially when after escaping from them and moving in with Isobel he ran into her in the hospital and said that while tired he wasn't deteriorating.

 

This.  Ha!

 

 

Speaking of which, my one real question for the finale was WHY was Amelia being such a bitch? Why should she care one way or another if Merton marries Isobel or lives at home? If anything, you think she'd prefer having Lord Merton gone so Larry could run things. I hate it when villains are villains with no motivation.

 

Yes!  Just like the bitch chamber maid in the first episode this season.  Both women were hissing and spitting venom at people they barely knew. It was ridiculous.

[MrsR]

 

For the record, the entail had nothing to do with the estate itself, it had to do with Cora's fortune.

Actually this is false.

 

The entail has everything to do with the estate. It probably originated with the formation of the estate dating back to the 1st Earl. It was designed to keep the estate from being broken up into smaller parcels with each succeeding generation.

 

Cora's dowry was brought into the estate in order to prop up an impoverished estate due to changing economic situations. Perhaps Robert had an ancestor who hadn't properly managed the estate or had one who was a spend thrift.

 

Cora's dowry was tied into the estate with another sort of entail. Men controlled the money their wives brought to the marriage by law unless specifically arranged at the time of marriage. They mention that Robert's father had "tied up in knots" Cora's dowry so that that portion on the entail could not be smashed.  

[moonb]

I was surprised to see Larry Grey in this episode.  I was convinced that Amelia had stuffed his body in a closet somewhere and claimed that he went hunting and never came back.  Can someone remind me whatever happened to Lord Merton's other son?  Where does he live?

 

Wasn't the other son the one who explicitly said that middle class Isobel didn't understand the responsibilities of being a titled lady last season? Maybe we're supposed to have forgotten about him. I have a feeling Amelia came along this season to take his place and give us those great scenes with Violet. Never mind that her motivations don't make a lot of sense. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by moonb

[CeeBeeGee]

That would have been hilarious! [O'Brien's] last FU to the Crawleys...just pop her head sideways at the door and shout it out.

 

I'm dying at this. Something about O'Brien's completely focused malevolence is hilarious. I remember on the TWoP board when she was pissed at Barrow and decided to destroy him (when she played him and Jimmy), someone commented about Barrow having activated O'Brien's "heat seeking missiles" and I have been laughing at that comment for years now.

[CeeBeeGee]

Can someone explain Bertie's dear old mum?

 

Wasn't Bertie just the estate agent?  How come 1) she was already apparently totally familiar with that huge castle (“Mrs. Pelham will see you in the Yellow Drawing Room”) and 2) felt qualified to snarkily dictate to the Earl and Countess of Grantham and their daughter what was best for her kid and the castle.

 

If she’s a Mrs. Pelham and apparently doesn’t have a title, isn’t she overstepping just a bit with her high handed plans? 

 

I thought this as well.  Robert and Cora outrank her by quite a bit. Cora was very gracious to accept being interrupted by her (as was Bertie--not once but twice, and in front of guests!).

[jschoolgirl]

We didn't really get a lot of insight into the Pellham family dynamics. When Bertie was first introduced it was as a poor relation to the Marquess, though close enough to act as the agent and apparently fairly good friends. In his own words he didn't have much to offer when he first proposed to Edith so I can assume his immediate family (parents) were not wealthy enough to leave him any considerable fortune. That he was actually first in line to inherit his cousin's title - even if said cousin was expected to have children eventually - is a bit inconsistent with the way he was introduced to us. ...

Bertie is very low-key and unassuming, and I think the points you made illustrate that depiction of him.

I'd still like to know what his father did. Peter might have given Mrs. Pelham a "dress allowance" like Cora received from Martha.

Edited March 9, 2016 by jschoolgirl

[SoTheresThat]

Does anyone know how all the Downton ladies are ranked now that Edith's on top of the heap?  I sure hope Mary's at the bottom now.

 

Also, how often did Debrett's Peerage get updated and reprinted in the past?  I'm sure it's all online now, but when someone died unexpectedly and the next heir was way down the line like in Matthew's case, would the book have to be reprinted?

 

On the episode topic, I loved every predictable minute of it.  I wish DA was a soap and would be on every day for the next 40 years.

 

Gemma Violet, on 06 Mar 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Yes, it was predictably happy endings for all, but I don't care.  I loved it and the whole last season.

 

One thing, though:  They should have used a messier wig for Daisy's final 'do.  Her hair was perfectly cut and coiffed, like a professional did it.

 

 

I'm sure one of the most important duties of a ladies' maid was doing hair.  I'm sure Anna was as good as any professional.   Too bad she couldn't work the same magic on her own hair.

[seacliffsal]

I couldn't believe the nerve of Bertie's mother. She totally behaved as if the castle belonged to her and that she was in charge. She is not even a dowager. She needed to beware her words and actions. She has no rank, while her son and Edith have rank. Also, her behavior towards Robert and Cora was beyond rude, as, again, she has no rank. Boy, she rankled me.... I would have actually liked seeing Bertie exile her as she was rude to Edith (but, he's far too nice for that!).

Other than that, I loved this farewell to Downton. I was so hoping that everyone would have a happy ending (well, maybe everyone except Daisy...). I am a sap and totally sentimental at times, so I was just so happy during the episode.

[jschoolgirl]

 Maybe JF was just making it up as he went along? ...I'm going to go with JF making it up as he went along.

It's been reported that he does exactly that. I believe he's confirmed it interviews. Not to give him credit, as I don't want to, but I think actors' commitments are part of the reason.

But it's probably mostly laziness. You could see it with the whole stupid time-wasting Coyle non-storyline. Perhaps some perfect guy to be cast as Coyle ended up not being available, and so Our Lord Creator had to find a way to close that non-arc.

 

Clarkson did misdiagnose someone in season one, though - it was one of Isobel's early battles in the show.

It was Farmer Drake, the guy Lady Edith smooched with in the hay during her Land Girl days.

And maybe some day a young man named Lane could come by and express interest in one day purchasing one, once he'd established himself in the advertising business and was making money.

Too soon?

:::sob::: Yes!

But the bit before it is great! Do a fic!

[peggy06]

Spent most of the episode waiting for Chekhov's Hairdryer to kill someone.

LOL, when Daisy was standing at the sink after taking it out of the dresser, I half expected her to electrocute herself or start a fire.

 

Oh, and Daisy? I know you're over the whole master/servant thing, but you are still employed by the Crawleys, and it's still not on to go rifling through the boss's dresser. Or anybody's come to that. 

 

I wish I could chop my hair off and have it turn out to be a perfect bob. Having said that, Daisy looked so pretty with that haircut.

 

Downton Abbey is like the Hotel California - you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

 

 

Too funny!

Edited March 9, 2016 by peggy06

[Atlanta]

I was once taught that all boys under a certain age were Master so-and-so, regardless of social class.  When my (now) husband and I were addressing envelopes for our wedding, I toyed with the idea of calling our ring bearer (who was five at the time) Master FIRSTNAME.  He thought I was crazy, so all minors were first name only on invitations. 

Agree. When I got married, I had a British mom reply on behalf of her kid as "master so and so" on the RSVP.

[peggy06]

For me she will always be Phylida (sp?), the sole female barrister in the chambers, in "Rumpole of the Bailey."

"The Portia of our chambers." Someone expressed surprise that a better-known actress wasn't chosen for the role, but I always thought Patricia Hodge was very well-known in Britain. 

 

Maybe it was PH's absolutely cut-glass accent and diction, but in the scene where she meets Edith, I forgot for the moment that she wasn't the dowager Marchioness. She certainly carried herself as if to the manner born. It was ludicrous to have her moralizing so heavy-handedly in one scene, lecturing Bertie that Edith had taken herself out of the running the next morning, and by evening, she is accepting. I guess you could say she was putting a good face on it, but her speech to Robert and Cora made it sound like we're supposed to take it at face value. Very clumsily done, though - especially the false tension of her interrupting Bertie's speech. Eh, I never could get into this plot anyway. 

[Sulador]

Interesting how none of them discussed Bertie's chances for inheriting the Marquess title, even though he was much closer to an inheritance than Henry was. But I guess they all had to be SHOCKED when he did or something.

 All anyone had to do was look up the Hexham entry in Debrett's Peerage...the stud book, as it was known. They could have seen instantly exactly how close he was, and you'd better believe that Debrett's giant red book was bedtime reading for those people.

[Sulador]

Agree. When I got married, I had a British mom reply on behalf of her kid as "master so and so" on the RSVP.

It was like that when I was a little girl in convent school. All the boys were "Master Lastname", all the girls were "Miss Lastname." I keep the custom alive with my friends' and cousins' kids, and they rather like the formality. We never went the full-on Jane Austen, though, where the eldest unmarried daughter was "Miss Bennet" and the rest were Miss Eliza Bennet, Miss Kitty Bennet, Miss Lydia Bennet, whatever...it was all just "Miss Lastname".

[jschoolgirl]

I looked at the wedding pictures again, and Mrs. Pelham was sporting a tiara. Did non-titled but well-born women wear them?

I noticed Edith skipped the Grantham tiara the second time, but I wonder if Sybbie or Marigold would be eligible, so to speak, to wear it when the time comes? I realize World War II will make such considerations very trivial.

Lord Merton is a baron, right? If there's a movie, it would be cool to see Isobel in the Merton tiara!

[helenamonster]

As annoying as Daisy has become, I thought there was a nice bit of circling back to the beginning with the hairdryer this episode. In the premiere, she was terrified of turning on the lights to clean the fireplaces as she thought she would be electrocuted. And now she's seeking out and using a hairdryer all by herself. Who says she hasn't had any character development? ;)

[Amethyst]

Re: Anna's super quick delivery, when Cora and Robert came upstairs to see the baby, Cora mentioned that Edith and Bertie had left "hours ago."  So I think it's safe to say Baby Bates took a few hours to emerge, they just ffw through the unpleasant bits, lol.  

 

Despite Carson being a giant asshole all season, I thought his resolution was poorly handled.  The solution was obvious, but the entire exchange barely took a minute and just like that, it was all said and done.  They could have just asked Thomas to take the position in advance and then spoken to Carson privately.  I guess they needed the visual handing of the reins with Thomas serving the drinks in lieu of Carson.

 

The only thing that really saved the scene was the actors.  I loved how everyone took it so solemnly.  They did allow Carson some dignity by leaving with Mrs. Hughes, and Thomas wasn't grinning smugly like he would have in the old days.  Everyone knew it was a sad event, no matter how practical the solution was.  But it was so patchy and chopped.  I wish there had been some type of coda like Carson actually seeing Thomas perform the butler duties and realizing he made the right choice, or him and Mrs. Hughes discussing the elusive B&B, like they had originally planned.  

 

Robert decreeing Carson's retirement, while simultaneously bringing Thomas back, all while Edith's party went on felt tactless and cheap.

[AndySmith]

Yes, once we found out Bertie was the new Lord Hexham, it seems extremely odd that no one mentioned he was thisclose to being the Lord of Hexham.  I mean, they went on about how 40 strong men had to die for Henry to inherit any title, but they would not have been aware that Bertie was THE heir to Lord Hexham should he die without children?  I'd expect they would have known it or mentioned it when he first showed up!

 

Logically, the way things should have happened was, the Crawley's and Co. should have noted or at least inferred in the Season 5 CS that Bertie was related to the then living Marquess of Hexham, given that 1) they both had the last name Pelham and 2) Bertie was working as caretaker of the estate. Them having the same last name and Bertie working on the estate couldn't have been a coincidence. They might not have been too interested in how close Bertie and Peter were as cousins, but they would at least have taken note of it.

 

And then, once they found out Edith was dating Bertie, one or more of them would have remembered Bertie being a cousin of the Marquess, with the same last name, and probably checked up on how close of a cousin he was to the Marquess. They would have checked on what his potential chances of inheriting the title would be, especially as at the time, Peter was in his late 30s, single, with no kids...

 

But, JF.

 

Robert and Cora outrank her by quite a bit

I couldn't believe the nerve of Bertie's mother. She totally behaved as if the castle belonged to her and that she was in charge. She is not even a dowager. She needed to beware her words and actions. She has no rank, while her son and Edith have rank

 

All the upstairs women on this show, including Violet, Cora, Rose, even Mary and now Isobel, outrank her. Being the mother of a Marquess does have some cache, of course - I imagine people will try to get to Bertie through her, and she'll definitely be invited to tons of parties and events and whatnot hoping it'll trickle back to him - but at the end of the day, she is a commoner.

Edited March 9, 2016 by AndySmith