S01.E02: Pilot Part 2

[mtlchick]

 

Always glad to get some high quality Garber action!

 

Hell, I was happy to see "Starring Victor Garber."  I was like "SpyDaddy gets listed first! WOOT."

 

Meanwhile, Wentworth is one of the few men that can really pull off a turtleneck. 

[nksarmi]

Somewhere in the pilot is an unseen Cold/Sara "flirt" scene. I want it :)

https://mobile.twitter.com/caitylotz/status/692956976175800320

 

Oh come on!  We need that.  I will buy the DVDs anyway - I promise!

[MarkHB]

Leonard's sister Lisa (aka, Golden Glider) was the other member of the crew, but I don't think she was romantically involved with Heat Wave. Honestly, I'm not caught up on The Flash, so I'm still confused as to why Cold and Heat Wave were fine leaving Lisa behind in 2016.

 

I think they're all thinking that they'll be returned to the same point in 2016 that they left from, so in that sense they aren't leaving her alone.

 

Mick may be Snart's buddy and partner in crime (literally), but I can't imagine him being cool with him dating Lisa; he just doesn't seem like awesome boyfriend material.  I don't recall a kiss between the two, but I can, in fact, imagine Lisa doing that (kissing Mick) precisely to piss her brother off.

[TVHappy9463]

I noticed they re-used DD's house from Arrow as Vandal Savage's house last night. This hour was better than the first, the script is sitll clunky. Like the After school Special Moment when Ray and Freeze bonded over the electrical box in the cage. My dad took me on jobs, blah blah, ( can't rig wires) Ray reached over fixes celinoid, ( metaphorically kissing the boo-boo-).

I know he is coming back but I am glad to have a reprieve from Hawk-dude, two of the weakest characters. IMO. 

The action scenes are too cluttered, in order to accommodate all the special effects there are a lot of wide shots, that don't show a lot of artistry that goes in the craft of stage fighting, and it's all blowing stuff up. The beauty of Arrow is a lot of hand to hand. At least we get some of that with Sara. But I am over her slicked back greasy White Canary hair. I never thought I would miss her Black Canary wig, but I do.  Speaking of bad wigs, how about the one on Hawkgirl's stunt person

Hopefully the show will start to gel and find a rhythm, lots of potential with terrific talent; Victor, Caity, Brandon and Wentworth. 

[Proteus]

My memory may be bad, but I thought that there was a scene with an on-scene kiss between the two of them. At a minimum, there was a fair amount of flirting.

There was not only never a kiss between them, but never any flirting as well. There was never anything at all between Lisa and Heatwave.

[Starfish35]

I don't remember anything with Lisa and Heatwave. Lisa and Cisco yes, lots of flirting, and one kiss in her most recent episode. But not Lisa and Mick.

[jmonique]

The beauty of Arrow is a lot of hand to hand. At least we get some of that with Sara. But I am over her slicked back greasy White Canary hair. I never thought I would miss her Black Canary wig, but I do.

 

It's just not very becoming at all. It always looks like she just got done working out.

 

Ciara Renée and the dude playing Vandal Savage are just not good. Wentworth Miller is over the top as Captain Cold, but he makes it work. Ciara is just awkward and it's a shame that she's so pivotal to the pursuit of Savage. Entirely too much of the storyline is resting on obviously inexperienced shoulders.

[quarks]

There should also be a "And now, Sara" with sections about how she succeeds as a vigilante and as a human being. :)

 

That's a thought. 

[benteen]

Dhark has Ray imprisoned on Arrow but he might have left the scene before Ray entered the battle.

[Sakura12]

Sara succeeded as a vigilante by being stoned and still being able to kick some ass and take back the tech that Ray lost. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Sara didn't inhale. :)

Edited January 29, 2016 by Chicago Redshirt

[Sakura12]

Early ratings 1.1 with 2.84 viewers.

 

Which isn't too bad of a drop. It got most people to still tune into the second part of the pilot. Next weeks episode is the real deal breaker though. 

[diebartdie]

I absolutely adore this show right now. The fight scenes were over-the-top ridiculous, Captain Cold is going to get so fat devouring all the scenery, Atom zooming around in the fight scenes was even more ridiculous, Hawkwoman had one GREAT line about thinking for herself, Jax was really cool, Dr Stein was so funny and finally.....Sara Lance is the stoner bisexual (yet remarkably butch to my ancient eyes) anti-hero I never knew I needed. I know it can't last, something this delicious always ends in meh but for right now this show works for me more than just about anything else. Keep it light show, keep it silly just dont get too stupid :D

 

 

Oh hell I forgot Hawkboy died, lol that was such the frosting on the cake! He was so arrogant, so damn full of his stupid self he got himself killed oh my god that was the best and yet everything else was so much better I almost forgot it even though Ive been pulling for his death since day one! Excellent job show!

[Sakura12]

If you embrace the ridiculousness and like most of the characters this show is enjoyable. I just hope they keep up the switching of the pairings like AoS. 

[johntfs]

My memory may be bad, but I thought that there was a scene with an on-scene kiss between the two of them. At a minimum, there was a fair amount of flirting.

 

On another topic, as they go earlier into Savage's timestream, the older Savage should remember their previous interventions, should he not?

 

It is going to be hard to swallow the lack of teamwork and common-sense if it continues. In both melees (at the weapons auction and Chez Savage), people barely kept their eyes on the prize (Savage). A nuke was set off (which, by the way, seems like a super crazy move by Savage since he can't know that anybody can stop it and as immortal as he is, there's no guarantee that he can survive a nuke) and people are not acting like that's urgent to stop. Also, no one seemingly tries to track down Savage directly or learn about him, despite numerous unconscious goons to interrogate or records to pursue. Given that Savage had killed the Hawks 206 times and killing them empowers him, it seems like having him confront them alone is a big mistake.

 

Actually, there's a pretty specific guarantee that he can survive a nuke.  It might take him awhile to reform/regenerate, but unless it's he's killed by that specific dagger wielded by Hawkwoman, he'll survive whatever it is.  Honestly the smarter move might be to trap him in a container, fill it with concrete and drop him to the bottom of the Marianas trench.

 

It's possible that Savage does remember earlier interference with him.  He was awfully quick to jump to "time travelers" instead of aliens, superscientists, magic users, etc as what was attacking him at the Norway Nuke show.

 

How polite and un-savage-like of Savage to just hang out nearby while Kendra tended to Carter!

 

Well, he does kind of love her in his own twisted, horrible murderous way.  Giving her a couple moments to grieve is okay since he's going to murder her anyway.  Also, he's probably somewhat invulnerable since he just "ate" Hawkman.  I recall from the Flash/Arrow crossover, that weapons and the like could affect him, just not kill him.  Arrows stuck in him.  However, in the temporary timeline where he won, right after he killed the Hawks, Oliver shot him with an arrow and it bounced off.

Edited January 29, 2016 by johntfs

[mccartygirl]

And they killed off one of the worst actors on the show instead of letting them hang around for 4 seasons like Arrow has down with Katie Cassidy. Now, if they kill off Hawkgirl, the show will be perfect.

 

I thought I was the only one who couldn't stand Hawkgirl. She's terrible! And please someone get rid of Katie Cassidy. 

 

I could watch Snart and Mick all day. I didn't care for Wentworth Miller's character on Prison Break (I was a Linc girl), but I am loving him as Snart! He is over the topic and smarmy - it's perfect!

[Actionmage]

Given that Savage had killed the Hawks 206 times and killing them empowers him, it seems like having him confront them alone is a big mistake.

 

That's something the DH and I were wondering as we were watching. Where was the back-up for the Hawks? Obviously, they haven't done well with a 0-206 record against Savage by themselves, so maybe a little help?  The husband was wondering why Firestorm didn't continue to pelt Vandal with his flames if that was keeping Savage down? "Aw, he's out right now. I hit him with some of my flames and he's takin' a nap."  Like he's just a thug or a goon or a kitten. Not the immortal murdering sociopath stalker that he is.

 

Also, while it looked cool, why did everyone have to be in that big lawn fight with Savage's goons? I guess, in order for Carter to die/ The Script Said So, but that's not very satisfying. 

 

Yet, the episode was overall. Now that the set-up is finished, I'm hoping that the real fun is ready to start.

[blackwing]

I know people are rejoicing the death of Hawkman, but I actually didn't think he was that bad.  I don't think he's a great actor, but I think the girl who plays Hawkgirl is a lot worse.  She is absolutely terrible.  For what it's worth, IMDB

lists the actor who plays Hawkman as appearing in 16 episodes, same as all the others, so I think he is probably coming back next week.  Just as how Martin's wedding ring was disappearing, they will probably jump back a week in time where Hawkgirl realises that she needs to wield the dagger, thus saving Hawkman.

 

Caity Lotz is the best part of this show.  Her fight scenes are amazing.  It would be interesting to have a network crossover and see whether the White Canary or Mockingbird is better with those staves.

[Sakura12]

They established that they can't go back to a time they participated in. That's why they can't go back to time when the Hawks tried to kill Savage. I think the modern version of Hawkman is dead and they will meet another version in their time traveling. 

[tarotx]

You know Hawkman will be in Hawkgirl's memories so even when a modern or a non origin Hawkman isn't there, he'll be in the show a bit. 

 

Hawkgirl is bad but she is the only other girl on a show filled with men. We were going to lose a guy first. We better not lose a girl this season because if that's the case it'll be Sara. Hawkgirl was tied to Savage even more last night with it having to be her that kills him even if Hawkman survived. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by tarotx

[blackwing]

They established that they can't go back to a time they participated in. That's why they can't go back to time when the Hawks tried to kill Savage. I think the modern version of Hawkman is dead and they will meet another version in their time traveling. 

I think all sorts of things get screwed up with time travel.  They can't go back to a time they participated in, but they could certainly go back to a month ago and meet their younger selves, much like how Martin met his younger self.  Or they could even go back to a month ago and talk to young Martin again, and tell him to remind them the next time he sees them that "Kendra must use the dagger".

 

Or yes, I could see them using him in Egyptian flashbacks or memories, and that's how the actor is still on the show.  Maybe they will all even travel back to ancient Egypt.

 

And sadly, I agree that we are going to be stuck with the horrific actress that is Hawkgirl for the entire show, at least for this season until they kill Savage and get a new villain for a Season 2.  It's very evident that she is this show's fragile special snowflake.  I loathe the "special snowflake" trope.  It's way overdone.

[Starfish35]

I think one of the worst things they did setting up this show was linking Vandal Savage to the Hawks. That means we're probably not going to get away from those horrible Egypt flashbacks all season long. :(

I don't really have a problem with Kendra herself, but I'm hoping she gets more interesting paired with some of the other characters. The Hawk romance was doing absolutely nothing for me.

I'm curious though. What happens if she kills Vandal Savage? Is that the end of their reincarnations? Hawkman stays dead and she lives out the rest of her life? Have they ever said?

[Starfish35]

Rewatching: I'm confused about their location hopping. It seemed like the lab where they were working in Ray's tech was in Norway, where VS was. So how did young!Martin get there from the U.S.?

[Sakura12]

I think we are supposed to assume that Vandal was only in Norway for the weapons auction. Then he went back to his house in the states? that happened to be near where Stein went to school. It's the Forest of Coincidence! (Galvant reference in case anyone is wondering)

 

Usually with time travel shows I try not to think so hard about it. It'll never make sense. Even Doctor Who has it's timey whimey bubble. 

 

Final ratings. 1.1 with 2.90 million viewers. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[MadyGirl1987]

Loved this! Got me very excited for the where the series is gonna go. Loved the interactions and am a sucker for time travel shenanigans. Victor Garber was MVP this episode for me.

On a side note; Am I the only one who, seeing Ray as the Atom, flying around in fight scenes, thinks of Iron Man? Even the sounds of his suits remind me of Iron Man. It is so similar that I half expected it to cut to an in-helmet view of Tony.

[Starfish35]

I think we are supposed to assume that Vandal was only in Norway for the weapons auction. Then he went back to his house in the states? that happened to be near where Stein went to school. It's the Forest of Coincidence! (Galvant reference in case anyone is wondering)

Lol ok. :) I didn't notice it the first time, but this time I was going "wait what?"

On a side note; Am I the only one who, seeing Ray as the Atom, flying around in fight scenes, thinks of Iron Man? Even the sounds of his suits remind me of Iron Man. It is so similar that I half expected it to cut to an in-helmet view of Tony.

There was quite a lot of commentary on the similarities when the suit first showed up on Arrow last season. I guess I'd just kind of gotten used to it so I don't think about it anymore. But you're not wrong. :)

Edited January 29, 2016 by Starfish35

[rue721]

And sadly, I agree that we are going to be stuck with the horrific actress that is Hawkgirl for the entire show, at least for this season until they kill Savage and get a new villain for a Season 2.  It's very evident that she is this show's fragile special snowflake.  I loathe the "special snowflake" trope.  It's way overdone.

 

If she dies, does she come back in the same body?

 

ETA:  I guess so, since her son recognized her, and she plays herself in the flashbacks. But is that something that could change? Could she be reincarnated as someone else?

 

I'm thinking of the Originals, and how a bunch of the characters get put in different bodies, etc, so you can have multiple actors playing the same character (depending on the time period of the scene).

Edited January 29, 2016 by rue721

[Starfish35]

Apparently, judging from the flashbacks and that picture Boardman had of his parents.

[futurechemist]

I like this show, it's lighthearted just like the Flash.  I hope they get to go to other time periods besides just 1975.

 

1 thing I wasn't a huge fan of were the big battles.  Those were visually too much.  It seemed like a horde of people and blue and red lasers and missiles.  I couldn't follow it.

 

Random thought - does anyone else get some sexism from naming the 2 hawk characters "Hawkman" and "Hawkgirl".  As if he's a mature adult, while she's a child.  I mean, not like comic book character names are known for their subtlety or political correctness, but that seems like something that could be fixed in 2016.

Edited January 29, 2016 by futurechemist

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I don't know why she couldn't be Hawkwoman. 

[nksarmi]

In most instances, when they use XXXgirl - at some point in time there has also been a XXXwoman (Superwoman, Spiderwoman, Batwoman, etc...).  So, using the alternate name would signal a different character to comic book fans. 

 

From what I can tell, Shayara Thal (the alien version) used both Hawkgirl and Hawkwoman as her code name.  But this version - Kendra/reincarnated Egyptian princess - just uses the Hawkgirl monocle.  Of course that doesn't mean they couldn't have gone with Hawkwoman, but I think Hawkgirl is more well known (at least among those who watched her with their kids on the JL cartoon).

 

I just hope she becomes as badass as her character is supposed to be.

[quarks]

Random thought - does anyone else get some sexism from naming the 2 hawk characters "Hawkman" and "Hawkgirl".  As if he's a mature adult, while she's a child.  I mean, not like comic book character names are known for their subtlety or political correctness, but that seems like something that could be fixed in 2016.

 

I think this comes down to merchandising - thanks to the Justice League cartoon, the more familiar name is "Hawkgirl." The DC website currently just has Hawkgirl merchandise for sale, not Hawkwoman.

 

With that said, although Legends of Tomorrow character is called Kendra, who mostly went by Hawkgirl in the comics, and is sorta following that resurrection story, the character also seems to be borrowing from the story of the original Hawkgirl, Shiera Sanders Hall, who eventually became Hawkwoman, and who also was a reincarnated Egyptian princess before becoming an alien in a later comics appearance. (It's really best not to think about this too much.)  So I don't see any reason why the Kendra on the show can't be Hawkwoman instead of Hawkgirl - I even think it would help distinguish her from the Justice League cartoon version.

Edited January 29, 2016 by quarks

[Moya the Leviathan]

I think Heatwave said it best " I LOVVVVE  the 70s"  Can we promise to have at least one more episode in this time era?  And since we are stealing from anybody and everybody, shouldn't there be a memory-flashy-thingy begging to be misused here?

[CletusMusashi]

I hated last week, but grudgingly gave it one more chance. Loved this one!

Oh, sure, it's silly and has plot holes you could drive a plagiarized DeLorean through, but it's the right kind of silly!

All of the Team Legend characters who are still alive, I like. Even Rip is kind of fun, as long as he's sufficiently butt-monkied by the troops. Loved Canary as a 70s bimbo, wish they'd stay in that era for a while and do more of that. Kendra needs to put on some hotpants and have zany 70s hijinks with her and Stein. 

If they do go to another era next week, I'm hoping it's the mid to late 60s. And everything is exactly like in the Adam West 'verse.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Legends Of Tomorrow Gets A Blast From The Past
Hunter's recruits continue fighting the Vandal battle they joined last time. Hey, guess who this guy will one day be!

[johntfs]

I kind of want them to stay in the 70s for a bit to see Kendra rocking a Foxy Brown 'fro.

[kismet]

About the only bad thing is that with the music, I'm afraid they won't release this on Blu due to licensing rights being too expensive.

I doubt it will stop the release, they'll just change the songs like so many shows do now.

[Last Time Lord]

I wonder if they could go to the future and pick up and train the next incarnation of Hawkman while he's young and still coming into his powers.

[kismet]

You know, quarks, if you need a "And now..." section in your recaps, you could focus on identifying the sets. Your annoyance is just hilarious.

 

That would be fun!

Well, I did manage to refrain from complaining - much - about the sets on Arrow and Flash this week. One of the three was bound to get to me!

I have a feeling the graveyard is soon to be the next commonly shared set this season in the Flarrowverse.

Edited January 30, 2016 by kismet

[Sakura12]

If they do that than Hawkgirl will die at some point. They said they both have to die to be reincarnated. They would have to go into the past and find him when he was younger (it's just too bad they couldn't get a different actor for that). It is probably what they are doing since the actor is a regular. Hopefully he is gone for an ep or 2 to give Hawkgirl some time on her own with the team. 

[Delphi]

I doubt it will stop the release, they'll just change the songs like so many shows do now.

I thought that these days they bought the music preemptively to a dvd release so that copyrights weren't an issue. I mean everything is released in dvd these days, it's not like Daria from the 90s where no one expected that in a decade you coold have a whOle show on a cd.

[jhlipton]

Meanwhile, I'm cool with Carter going out a hero since it means he's going.  

 

The actor is so wooden I didn't see a difference for a minute.  Ciara was bad, but that may have just been an effect of standing in "Cater's" sucky-acting aura.

 

I hope she becomes much more interesting now that she isn't tied to hanging out with Hawkman all the time. I want to see her interact with others. But it sucks that she's two for two in losing people close to her every episode.

 

Hopefully, the actress will open up now that she's not being so reactive.

 

From the recap:

Earlier, Stein The Younger caught Stein The Elder with his alpha-particle tracker prototype, and he babbled righteously for a while until White Canary was forced to bonk him over the head to get things moving.

 

You could say she was forced to bong him over the head!

Edited January 30, 2016 by jhlipton

[jaytee1812]

And they killed off one of the worst actors on the show instead of letting them hang around for 4 seasons like Arrow has down with Katie Cassidy. Now, if they kill off Hawkgirl, the show will be perfect.

The only bad actor Arrow keeps around in Stephen Amell.

was it the lighting or were the Hawks blacked up in the Egyptian scenes?

Edited January 30, 2016 by jaytee1812

[wayne67]

How polite and un-savage-like of Savage to just hang out nearby while Kendra tended to Carter!

 

All during his supposed to be dramatic death scene I kept wondering if Savage had wandered off and why he wasn't stabbing Hawkgirl while her back was literally turned and she was distracted. 

 

Then he was just standing there watching her for no reason whatsoever.

 

Also why is he always killing her? Shouldn't he be holding her captive and convincing her she really does love him? Or at the very least torturing her for amusement. Or if he's so over the whole reincarnation cycle. Why doesn't he just off himself using her hand and his knife?

 

I keep wondering about Heatwave and Captain Cold using their very violent weapons to take down thugs in the 70's. Are they just going to be killing random thugs in the past with no consequences ? 

[ferretrick]

Why, when we already have Cold and Heat Wave, can they not just kill off Hawkgirl and put in Golden Glimmer?  Ciara Renee CANNOT act.  Her line readings are terrible. 

[BkWurm1]

This is written up without having read anyone else’s comments yet.  I actually watched the episode twice.

 

I thought it was almost a good episode and definitely not nearly as bad as some reviewers claimed, but fell flat toward the end after Carter’s death though not as much on the second viewing.  Before that, I was consistently entertained by what was going and I thought they broke up the teams well into smaller groups so individuals didn’t get lost in the crowd.  Except for Rip, but I expect that will change.

 

 

I laughed when Savage used Ray’s tiny tech on a scientist and it sent him blasting across the room.  Sure, it looked like he was dead but the same thing happened to Roy in season three and Oliver didn’t even worry enough to go back and check on him.  So I’m sure scientist guy survived too.  ;)

 

 

Where the show was weak was with two things, the first being a lack of emotional resonance with Carter’s death.  As Cold said, I don’t know him from Adam, but unlike Cold, I didn’t really care. I might have down the line, but I don’t and I don’t care about Kendra either so apart from one brief moment of sympathy as she was wailing that she’d never told him she loved him, I also didn’t really care about her so, yeah, I was very disconnected and his death wasn’t even shocking so everything felt anticlimactic.

 

 

I do care about Prof Stein but except for his first angry outburst when his former self followed them to the ship, I was upset that he wasn’t more upset about losing Clarissa so when Rip fixed it, I was relieved but I didn’t really feel it from Martin.  So a missed emotional beat and that’s not good.  Honestly, without knowing the character from The Flash, one wouldn’t even know he was married.  Another mistake. 

 

 

The second weakness and something that I found a bigger problem, (also related to the Hawkman’s death) was the illogical plot/directions given to the Kendra as she TURNS HER BACK on Savage and instead gives all her attention to Carter as he lay dying.  I can understand the emotional urge to give him her attention but why would Savage not finish her off?  Why did he just stand there watching? Why would she never even glance his direction as he watched?  She wouldn’t have behaved like that and neither would Savage.  He wants to kill both of them, not just Carter.  It completely took me out of the scene and then Ray stepped in and saved her, I was mad that she and Carter were left to face Savage on their own.  What was everyone thinking?  Terrible, terrible idea. 

 

 

All that was almost made up for by Rip handing Ray his tiny suit.  That was hilarious!!  Also cracked  up when he flew out of Stein’s pocket.  Didn’t see that coming.  Should have, but didn’t.  Sara taking out the rent a thugs high was hilarious and gave me the head canon that being stoned is why Sara is acting so mellow.  Girl is seriously self-medicating.

 

Looking forward to next week. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On a side note; Am I the only one who, seeing Ray as the Atom, flying around in fight scenes, thinks of Iron Man? Even the sounds of his suits remind me of Iron Man. It is so similar that I half expected it to cut to an in-helmet view of Tony.

 

Except Tony's suit is way more durable. In Arrow, Ray had his suit short out when he flew through some waves, and now in LoT, he had some major component of his suit get either shot off or ripped off by someone. 

[kismet]

Let's just be honest, Ironman is far superior is many ways to Ironman-lite no matter how better the writing is going so far on LoT for RP.

[KirkB]

The sound effect they use when Ray is flying or shooting is so damn similar to Iron Man's I'm half surprised Marvel doesn't sue them for infringement.

 

I didn't really notice it the first time I watched, but on a second viewing it is odd Savage just stands by and lets Kendra have a last talk with Carter. I think the show tries to justify it by his being in love with her in some twisted way but that doesn't really fly. He was in love with her back in ancient Egypt too but he was still pretty quick to stab her there. Now, 206 times later, he just hangs back?

[Sakura12]

He was also inhaling Carter's soul. Maybe that takes some time.