S06.E03: Season 6, Episode 3

[proserpina65]

Aside from Clarkson and Violet's egos I'm not sure what the objections to the merger really are ... Clarkson can still continue to practice in Downton Village as a local doctor and he will then have the support of the medical staff both for consultations but also so he can have time/days off.  I'd say he's too good and conscientious a doctor (for all his errors in the past) to hold out very long ... and we see him failing Violet's obstinance but without explanation ... feh.

 

Judging by what happened to the hospital nearest to the town where I grew up after it was absorbed into a larger 'chain' health system, Downton's hospital can look forward to a brief improvement with the influx of new money, new equipment and new methods, followed by a rapid decline as it is stripped of it assets by the larger consortium, until it becomes even more of a backwater hospital where almost no essential services are provided.  Of course, I'm just extrapolating here.

[SusanSunflower]

I don't think there were very many "essential services" in 1920 ... x-rays and lab work were rudimentary but could still be accomplished in-office, by any practitioner . Most people were nursed (and died) at home, often by local private nurses. Hospital were considered places where people went to die (because they were too sick to be cared for at home).  Too bad the story hasn't bothered to tell us the pro's and con's beyond ego and "tradition" 

[Roseanna]

I don't think there were very many "essential services" in 1920 ... x-rays and lab work were rudimentary but could still be accomplished in-office, by any practitioner . Most people were nursed (and died) at home, often by local private nurses. Hospital were considered places where people went to die (because they were too sick to be cared for at home).  Too bad the story hasn't bothered to tell us the pro's and con's beyond ego and "tradition" 

 

In Foyle's war's episode Trespass that was set in November 1946, the health system of ordinary people who had no money to pay the doctor are presented quite gloomy.   

[blackwing]

I simply couldn't believe the level of conceit, haughtiness, and self-absorption that every single member of the Crawley family exhibited with respect to that wedding. Not only was the scolding tone of voice that Cora used absolutely disgraceful, even her apology was filled with conceit. Although she was generous in lending the coat for the wedding, the fact that she decided to make it a permanent gift was extremely insensitive. No matter the cost of the garment, she was taking her used clothing and acting as though it was some type of legitimate wedding gift. She treated it as though her used clothes were something that Mrs. Hughes "deserved," rather than something she had been putting her underarms into for years. She saw it as an honor. It reminded me of the time she ran into Mr. and Mrs. Bates in a restaurant and apologized for not being able to join them. She just assumed that having her join them would have been a great honor, whereas having her crash the dinner they had planned would have ruined the romance and privacy of the dinner. That's quite a level of conceit to assume that inviting yourself to join someone at dinner would be an honor, rather than an intrusion.

I also really disliked that the Crawleys sat in the front of the church. That place belonged to the most important people of the Hughes and Carson families.

I think there was a lot of miscommunication between and amongst Carson, Mrs. Hughes and the Crawleys as to what was wanted for the wedding, but I don't think any of the offerings of Mary and Cora were based in conceit.  The women wanted Mrs. Hughes to have something nice to wear.  She was going to wear this awful old dress of hers.  Mrs. Patmore thought it wasn't good enough and ordered her something new from the catalogue.  It arrives and it is just as frumpy.  So Anna casually mentions it to Mary, and Mary wants Mrs. Hughes to feel pretty and special and says she can borrow a dress.

 

I don't see anything wrong with Cora offering the coat to Mrs. Hughes.  Clearly, it was something she admired, because she chose to try it.  I don't see why the gifting of the coat has to be considered condescending.  I also don't see why it is considered conceited for Cora to apologise for not being able to join the Bateses. She is their employer and was probably expected to join them when running into them accidentally (and perhaps paying for dinner).  I think those were the times.  She is after all the Countess of Grantham, she would have been considered a fairly big deal in the area and I do think it would have been considered an honour for the Bateses to be seen dining in her company.

 

Have we even heard of any relatives of Mrs. Hughes or Carson?  If any came to the wedding, we weren't introduced to them.  I think the Crawleys paid for the entire reception (they certainly paid for the food) so I think it was more than appropriate they sit in the front.  They are the local gentry.

[rur]

I simply couldn't believe the level of conceit, haughtiness, and self-absorption that every single member of the Crawley family exhibited with respect to that wedding. Not only was the scolding tone of voice that Cora used absolutely disgraceful, even her apology was filled with conceit. Although she was generous in lending the coat for the wedding, the fact that she decided to make it a permanent gift was extremely insensitive. No matter the cost of the garment, she was taking her used clothing and acting as though it was some type of legitimate wedding gift. She treated it as though her used clothes were something that Mrs. Hughes "deserved," rather than something she had been putting her underarms into for years. She saw it as an honor. It reminded me of the time she ran into Mr. and Mrs. Bates in a restaurant and apologized for not being able to join them. She just assumed that having her join them would have been a great honor, whereas having her crash the dinner they had planned would have ruined the romance and privacy of the dinner. That's quite a level of conceit to assume that inviting yourself to join someone at dinner would be an honor, rather than an intrusion.

 

 

One of the goals of etiquette, at least that practiced at the time of the show,  is to make the other person feel comfortable. In the restaurant scene, I saw Cora trying to make Anna and Bates comfortable -- providing an excuse for why she couldn't join them before they could ask her to join them out of a feeling of obligation although they clearly wanted time together alone.

 

As for giving Mrs. Hughes the coat, I saw it as Cora trying to make the best of a bad situation -- make the other person comfortable.  She apologized for her behavior and made the coat a gift rather than loan it. That way  Mrs. Hughes wouldn't have to feel responsible for cleaning it after use or worry about damaging it.  Within the confines of the time period, I thought she was gracious. 

 

And it was a totally different time period, with people very acutely aware of the places in society. Which, I guess, is why the Crawleys were in the front of the church, or didn't shake their hands. That, and because it's DA and maybe the writers didn't think about some of the stuff as much as we do.  Other than that, I've got nothin'.

[Bad Example]

I cannot stand Denker and if she got hit by a bus tomorrow I would do a jig. . 

 

As would I.... except it would somehow turn out that Anna was driving the bus and Bates had tripped Denker with his (conveniently appearing) cane.

(While you wrote this a million years ago, I still had to respond.)

[Diane M]

I also really disliked that the Crawleys sat in the front of the church. That place belonged to the most important people of the Hughes and Carson families.

 

And who would that be?  For all we know, they have no family....at least, no one invited to the wedding.  Would have been odd to have left the first couple of rows empty just in case a stray cousin or two showed up for the wedding.

[Roseanna]

I simply couldn't believe the level of conceit, haughtiness, and self-absorption that every single member of the Crawley family exhibited with respect to that wedding. Not only was the scolding tone of voice that Cora used absolutely disgraceful, even her apology was filled with conceit. Although she was generous in lending the coat for the wedding, the fact that she decided to make it a permanent gift was extremely insensitive. No matter the cost of the garment, she was taking her used clothing and acting as though it was some type of legitimate wedding gift. She treated it as though her used clothes were something that Mrs. Hughes "deserved," rather than something she had been putting her underarms into for years. She saw it as an honor. It reminded me of the time she ran into Mr. and Mrs. Bates in a restaurant and apologized for not being able to join them. She just assumed that having her join them would have been a great honor, whereas having her crash the dinner they had planned would have ruined the romance and privacy of the dinner. That's quite a level of conceit to assume that inviting yourself to join someone at dinner would be an honor, rather than an intrusion.

 

Cora didn't really want to join Anna and Bates in the restaurant, she only said so in order to get the butler give them the best service.  

 

As for the dress, one can't expect that the Cora could have behaved like people nowadays. People weren't equal at time time.

[SusanSunflower]

My problem with Cora "gifting" the coat is that it could very easily been misinterpreted as "now that you've worn it, it's worthless to me"  and, in fact, Mrs. Hughes was never given an opportunity to chose what SHE wanted to wear. My recollection is that Cora's "drab" coat was chosen by Mrs. Patmore as "going with" the drab dress ... 

[buttercupia]

I thought Thomas was very gentle and kind to the old Lord who interviewed him. He was careful to avoid patronizing him and made their parting comfortable and amicable.  He really can be a dear when he chooses and it's a shame we don't get to see more of that.

[Llywela]

There are obviously a lot more other staff that could be cut too.  Tom mentioned that he went to the house and the "hall boy" told him everyone was at the schoolhouse.  I don't know what a "hall boy" is, but it basically sounds like someone who sweeps the halls?  We have never really seen the "messy" servants, the ones who have to collect the garbage and throw out the trash and clean the floors.

Hall boy. An official title given to the lowest ranked male servant, who did all the really dirty jobs, down to emptying chamber pots.

Why did the man interviewing Thomas refer to the "ladieS" in plural form when describing them going upstairs for the evening?   Was it just common that guests spent the night there ?   And why just the ladies?   Didn't the men go to bed?

Guests would have stayed over regularly, yes, just as we often see the Crawleys entertaining guests overnight. Also, he likely had more than one lady in his family at one time. Plus, it was etiquette for the men and ladies to separate after a meal - the men went off to one room to smoke their cigars and drink while the ladies retired to their sitting room. We see the Crawleys doing it after meals as well. Meals were formal occasions - you didn't just drift away from the table in drips and drabs as you were done. Everyone went together onto the next stage of the evening, the men to their room and the ladies to theirs. That's what he was talking about.

[ShadowFacts]

I thought Thomas was very gentle and kind to the old Lord who interviewed him. He was careful to avoid patronizing him and made their parting comfortable and amicable.  He really can be a dear when he chooses and it's a shame we don't get to see more of that.

Yes, he could have taken on any number of unpleasant attitudes and no one would have been the wiser, so that was part of his true self we were seeing.  That may seem like damning with faint praise, but I don't have a hard time imagining that others who may have answered that ad may not have been as kind.  He has been more kind and helpful than not in the past couple seasons, so I wouldn't mind if we are seeing a redemption arc now.

[missmontyp]

I thought that Cora gifted the coat to Mrs. Hughes for two reasons.  The first that she felt bad about getting angry with her and secondly that the coat had to be altered and she didn't want Mrs. Hughes to worry about the alterations and putting it back afterwards in order to return it to Cora.

 

I thought Cora was being kind.

[txhorns79]

As for giving Mrs. Hughes the coat, I saw it as Cora trying to make the best of a bad situation -- make the other person comfortable.  She apologized for her behavior and made the coat a gift rather than loan it. That way  Mrs. Hughes wouldn't have to feel responsible for cleaning it after use or worry about damaging it.  Within the confines of the time period, I thought she was gracious.

 

I think she was gracious within the confines of any time period.  It was a generous gift, given with good intentions.  What more can you ask for?   

[kassa]

I had to laugh that Edith’s poor secretary ALSO stayed up until 4 in the morning working, then gets to make tea, and a lame “thanks, Audrey” without so much as a “grab a cup for yourself”, or “head home and come in after lunch!”  Nah, get back to your desk, wage slave!

 

I had immigrant ancestors from England and Ireland (mill workers and tannery workers, respectively, so not exactly rolling in dough) who went back home for brief visits of a few months well before the time period of this show.  So it was reasonably affordable if you really wanted to do it. I am not sure what Tom’s financial situation is.  Is he in control of some kind of trust for Sybbie? 

 

As for Tom unrealistically bailing out of Boston quickly, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility.  “No Irish need apply” was still very much in force in that time period, and while he would have had a going concern with his garage or whatever it was, Sybil’s social expectations would have been limited compared to what she would have at home.  Yes, sure, the Crawleys would no doubt have paid for her to go to a fancy school, but she’d be limited to the Catholic girl schools or a minority in others.  Or he could send her to the local school, but that would harm her chances of assimilating should she ever go back to England.

 

Fellows' hero-worshipping of the aristos is all too clear here. There would have been a big Irish community in Boston.

 

In certain Irish neighborhoods, being the son-in-law/granddaughter of an English Earl wouldn’t exactly win you any popularity contests.  Tom as a widower with no kid?  Could make a great life there.  Tom as the father of a granddaughter of an Earl?  He would just as easily have been a fish out of water in Boston.  

Besides, on some levels, Tom is to the new Mrs. Carson what Mary is to Mr. Carson, the child she never had.  (She has consoled him, advised him, and dealt with the predatory maid for him.)  She must have been thrilled that he was there on her special day. 

 

 

Very, very good point!

 

I don’t know how Carson expects to run an inn.  He has contempt for the nouveau riche people who occasionally interact with The Family.  Who exactly would be staying in the Carson establishment?  More Sarah Buntings than Lady Marys, I’m guessing. 

 

It reminded me of the time she ran into Mr. and Mrs. Bates in a restaurant and apologized for not being able to join them. She just assumed that having her join them would have been a great honor, whereas having her crash the dinner they had planned would have ruined the romance and privacy of the dinner.

 

 

As I recall, in that scene Cora was saying that in front of the snooty maitre d’ in order to impress upon him that they were personal friends of a Countess and he needed to treat them with more respect.  She knew the game he was playing and she wasn’t having it.  Yes, she was throwing her power around, but not at Anna and Bates – at the guy who was playing power games with them because he thought they were beneath him. She let him know that as personal friends of HERS, they were above HIM.

 

I think the boutonniere had a fern, a rose, and a piece of heather.  He removed the fern and left the other two.  The heather was just a thin stalk beside the rose, but it was there.

 

One question remains – were the family going to sit at the tables and dig in to the feast, or just pay their respects and run home?

[RedHawk]

Yes, Cora gave Mrs. Hughes the coat outright because it needed to be altered/shortened to fit correctly. Now that it belongs to her, Mrs. Hughes can wear the ensemble again, perhaps on the honeymoon or another "dressy" occasion. It was not condescending for Cora to give her the coat, which was probably stylish and beautifully made with fine details. It made up for the "plain" dress underneath.

[jschoolgirl]

I think Andy expected to be fired first.  He said something like "well I suppose it's me then, I'm the last hired".  It does make sense.  Andy and Moseley are both footmen.  Last season (before Andy came along) Moseley was told by an asstastic Carson that he could get his wish and be the first, second and third footman all in one.  So it's not like it would be a new thing to Moseley to have to do all the work.  But Thomas' position is superfluous as well, as I have said before, I have a hard time figuring out exactly what it is he does since we rarely see him doing any work.

 

I think if they were going to downsize they could get rid of Thomas and Andy.  But I suspect that we are going to get a redemption of Thomas storyline.  Carson will retire and run that B&B he wanted.  Thomas will get promoted to butler.  Moseley gets his wish and becomes a teacher, and Andy will become the only footman.  It's the last season, so there should be happy endings for all I suppose.

 

There are obviously a lot more other staff that could be cut too.  Tom mentioned that he went to the house and the "hall boy" told him everyone was at the schoolhouse.  I don't know what a "hall boy" is, but it basically sounds like someone who sweeps the halls?  We have never really seen the "messy" servants, the ones who have to collect the garbage and throw out the trash and clean the floors.

Hall boys (in an earlier era) emptied the chamberpots, including the staff's, thereby making them the lowest of the low.

[txhorns79]

One question remains – were the family going to sit at the tables and dig in to the feast, or just pay their respects and run home?

 

My guess would be they would go home, except perhaps Mary, since she is personally close with Carson.  Otherwise, it's kind of awkward to have them there for the whole thing, if only because I think there is always some awkwardness when the staff and the upstairs folks mix socially.  I mean can you imagine the Dowager making party talk with Barrow?     

 

And I forgot one thing, shut up Daisy.  At this point, I'd be fine with Cora saying nothing and just letting Daisy make a fool of herself if this doesn't work out like Daisy thinks it will.     

[Kohola3]

At this point, I'd be fine with Cora saying nothing and just letting Daisy make a fool of herself if this doesn't work out like Daisy thinks it will.

 

I would feel the same if it weren't for poor, dear Mr. Mason.  He dotes on Daisy and he is obviously in dire straits. I hope to heck something falls in place for the poor man, he's such a sweetie.

[lucindabelle]

Did Carson pull the heather out of his boutonniere?  Because that's what I thought he did and it looked like quite dire foreshadowing to me.

 

 

Heavens, no. He removed the fern. He left the heather. Heather is not a fern. It's a flower, a low-growing shrub. Fern is often used as filler in bouquets; by taking the fern out he's showing the heather off MORE. Hasn't anybody seen "Wuthering Heights?" Smell the heather!

 

And no foreshadowing. I wish people would stop with the foreshadowing. Last week people were busily predicting that one teensy quarrel was going to end the whole engagement of a couple who've been quietly falling for one another for years...

He was obviously joking, and so was she as she went along with it.

 

I hope so. Wouldn't put it past Fellowes at this point.

Why did the man interviewing Thomas refer to the "ladieS" in plural form when describing them going upstairs for the evening?   Was it just common that guests spent the night there ?   And why just the ladies?   Didn't the men go to bed?

Other than my confusion, I absolutely loved that scene too.

 

 

 

 

 

Why? There is after all more than one lady in Downton right now! A wife, two daughters, a mother, a whatever relation Isobel technically is that I can't figure out.

Heck, I could say "the cats" or "the men" in MY family.

After dinner, the women went up before the men did.

 

Wow-- as to below (sorry my quoting went off)

that's highly unusual. There was at the time the "American wake" and MOST people who left Ireland never went home at all. Joanie Madden, 50-year old singer of Cherish the Ladies, says her own mum never visited Ireland for something like 25 years after emigrating.

And there's Robbie O'Connell's "Kilkelly Ireland" which is basically a series of letters from a dad to a son who never returns with family. Mum dies in the interim.

It was not at all the norm for people to go back in the 20s.

 

And while "No Irish Need Apply" kind of existed, not so much in Boston, where the Irish were, and are, a big population. I've done research in archival Boston papers; it was a flourishing community.

 

Nope.

We've got to fan-wave it.

 

I had immigrant ancestors from England and Ireland (mill workers and tannery workers, respectively, so not exactly rolling in dough) who went back home for brief visits of a few months well before the time period of this show.  So it was reasonably affordable if you really wanted to do it. I am not sure what Tom’s financial situation is.  Is he in control of some kind of trust for Sybbie? 

 

As for Tom unrealistically bailing out of Boston quickly, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility.  “No Irish need apply” was still very much in force in that time period,

 

[photo fox]

I even thought Mary - and y'all know I pretty much hate her - was trying to do something nice for the Carsons, in her own fashion. Downton is, without a doubt, the grandest building in the vicinity, and "grand" is what many people want for their wedding. It's certainly what Mary would want for hers. So she thought she was offering them something highly desirable, as a note of gratitude for Carson's years of service.

I'm not even sure I can accuse her of not listening to their wishes. After all, Carson never could bring himself to actually say, "we don't want to have it here," I think in part because he did want to have it there. So he kept throwing up token excuses for staging it elsewhere, which Mary found "helpful" solutions for. I guess she could have sought out Mrs. Hughes specifically to get her thoughts, but she knows Carson well, and why would she think he wasn't being truthful?

When confronted with the truth she certainly should have acquiesced more gracefully. But I think she still thought that Mrs. Hughes was declining from some sense of order, and that Carson wanted it there (which again, I think he did).

So basically, I blame Carson. Sack up, man, and start putting your woman first!

eta: My great-great-grandmother fled Ireland as a teenager in the 1890s, settled in the Midwest and married a farmer. They were so poor she spent her last years in a state home and was buried with no marker. But twice they traveled back to Ireland because her homesickness was so severe, staying long enough that one of her children had his First Communion there. So it may be rare, but people did it, even in the lower classes.

Edited January 19, 2016 by photo fox

[lucindabelle]

  

eta: My great-great-grandmother fled Ireland as a teenager in the 1890s, settled in the Midwest and married a farmer. They were so poor she spent her last years in a state home and was buried with no marker. But twice they traveled back to Ireland because her homesickness was so severe, staying long enough that one of her children had his First Communion there. So it may be rare, but people did it, even in the lower classes.

 

Wow. I am really surprised. This is not what one usually hears at all, in song and story.

[PRgal]

Hall boy. An official title given to the lowest ranked male servant, who did all the really dirty jobs, down to emptying chamber pots.

Guests would have stayed over regularly, yes, just as we often see the Crawleys entertaining guests overnight. Also, he likely had more than one lady in his family at one time. Plus, it was etiquette for the men and ladies to separate after a meal - the men went off to one room to smoke their cigars and drink while the ladies retired to their sitting room. We see the Crawleys doing it after meals as well. Meals were formal occasions - you didn't just drift away from the table in drips and drabs as you were done. Everyone went together onto the next stage of the evening, the men to their room and the ladies to theirs. That's what he was talking about.

 

The Crawleys would still have kept their hall boys in 1925?  I thought they would have been the first to go, even at Downton?  As for Sibbie's education - she'd be a minority at any fancy school, whether in the US or the UK. 

[RedHawk]

My guess would be they would go home, except perhaps Mary, since she is personally close with Carson.  Otherwise, it's kind of awkward to have them there for the whole thing, if only because I think there is always some awkwardness when the staff and the upstairs folks mix socially.  I mean can you imagine the Dowager making party talk with Barrow?     

 

And I forgot one thing, shut up Daisy.  At this point, I'd be fine with Cora saying nothing and just letting Daisy make a fool of herself if this doesn't work out like Daisy thinks it will.     

Remember the party -- was it for Boxing Day? -- when Barrow and the Dowager Countess had their waltz? I think he asked her if she knew how to dance the "Black Bottom"! That was one time a year when masters and servants mixed, and we saw that it was a bit stuffy and not exactly a relaxed occasion but that each side had a part to play in making a fine evening.

 

Yes, it would have been much more relaxed and festive after the "quality" left the commoners to their wedding reception/party, or "a bit of a hooley" as Mrs. Hughes called it. Merriam-Webster defines "hooley" as a "wild party" and says it's an Irish term. Well, she certainly got her Irish with the return of Tom. 

As for Tom traveling back, he looked prosperous, so perhaps he made a decent go at the automobile/truck business and then when he realized he wanted to return to Downton, his brother bought him out. 

 

Or he's one step ahead of The Law, again, and spent his last shilling on 2nd-class tickets.

Edited January 20, 2016 by RedHawk

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, I don't think we know that Tom did (or did not) know of the impending wedding -- for all we know, he arrived back FOR the wedding ... and yes, he looked prosperous, well-rested, clean and well-tailored as did Ms. Sybbie.   Will we ever hear the tale of his American adventure? 

[kassa]

I think the hall boy also literally slept in the hall by the front door in case someone came overnight. Before phones there would have been no way that the servants gone to bed on the top levels of the house would have been able to hear or respond to knocking. And frankly, they wouldn't hear a phone either so you'd still need one.

Boston had a thriving Irish community, but Sybbie is English. Catholic, but English. People stayed in their lanes in terms of mixing. My grandmother was hired and fired the same day as a receptionist in a dental office in the late 20s when the dentist realized (too late) she was Catholic. His patients "wouldn't be comfortable," he explained.

I have memoirs from a great uncle on the other side of the family who made good and was asked to be the token Catholic on the board of the town bank. They literally extended the invitation to him as his being thought to be the best candidate for "the Catholic seat.". This in àn overwhelmingly Irish town. In the 40s.

The easiest explanation, of course, is that if this is the same brother as visited Downton , he couldn't take it any more and ran away.

Edited January 20, 2016 by kassa

[WatchrTina]

 

As for Tom unrealistically bailing out of Boston quickly, I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility.  “No Irish need apply” was still very much in force in that time period, and while he would have had a going concern with his garage or whatever it was, Sybil’s social expectations would have been limited compared to what she would have at home.

I bet we're going to find out that he returned home for Sibby's sake.  I'll bet the other Irish kids were mean to her, with her upper-class British accent and her fancy manners.  And I'll bet she missed her cousin George who, lets face it, she loves like a brother.  I can well imagine Tom putting his own wishes second to the needs of his daughter once he realized how unhappy she was.

[tenativelyyours]

I even thought Mary - and y'all know I pretty much hate her - was trying to do something nice for the Carsons, in her own fashion. Downton is, without a doubt, the grandest building in the vicinity, and "grand" is what many people want for their wedding. It's certainly what Mary would want for hers. So she thought she was offering them something highly desirable, as a note of gratitude for Carson's years of service. (1)

I'm not even sure I can accuse her of not listening to their wishes. After all, Carson never could bring himself to actually say, "we don't want to have it here," I think in part because he did want to have it there. So he kept throwing up token excuses for staging it elsewhere, which Mary found "helpful" solutions for. I guess she could have sought out Mrs. Hughes specifically to get her thoughts, but she knows Carson well, and why would she think he wasn't being truthful? (2)

When confronted with the truth she certainly should have acquiesced more gracefully. But I think she still thought that Mrs. Hughes was declining from some sense of order, and that Carson wanted it there (which again, I think he did).

So basically, I blame Carson. Sack up, man, and start putting your woman first! (3)

 

 

 

1.

I do agree that Mary thought she was doing something nice.

 

2.

I can blame her though.  Over and over again we get Mary having an attitude where it never seems to occur to her that others might think differently.  Sometimes as 'plot' but also many times as the overriding almost dogmatic voice of what I suspect is Fellowes rather peculiar notions.  I get it in a way.  Finding a way to reconcile something that affects you personally is hard to completely set into the subjective.  Heck if you don't believe me spend a few minutes reading posts at what I have to take at face value as sincere utter bewilderment as to how anyone else can like or dislike a character, story, show that differs from their own view.  How anyone can see a film in a way different from their own conclusion.  So I get that Fellowes would write his avatar as such in some ways.  I wish I was confident he truly could separate her blinders of opinion from his own.  So I either blame her for the character that Fellowes deliberately gives her.  Or for an unconscious attitude of 'Only just like me'  I'm feeling generous today so will lean towards the first.

 

 

3.

Definitely no argument with me on this.  He really is a pompous bore.  Why Fellowes decided to write this fanwankingmance and couldn't be bothered to show Carson as someone who seems in love enough to marry and not just be love Miss Mary is beyond me. Maybe it was a sort of snarling pay back.  'You want Carson and Hughes?  Okay.  But some of you won't like that is for damn sure....bawahhhhahahahaha/"

[Mrsjumbo]

You probably all already know this, but when I watched again Mr Carson gave Mrs Hughes a ring but did not wear one himself at the reception. Neither did Mr Crawley.

Looking it up, prior to the Great Depression (in the US), only 15% of weddings used double rings- for both bride & groom. By 1940 that number jumped to 80%. I have to assume England had similar stats.

[crowceilidh]

 

She treated it as though her used clothes were something that Mrs. Hughes "deserved," rather than something she had been putting her underarms into for years. She saw it as an honor.

 

There was a long long long tradition of servants being paid with their much richer employers cast-off clothes.  Especially in times when clothes are truly valuable (so for example, the 18th century) and people had very few.  It is one of the reasons that people complained that English servants "gave themselves airs" or complained that they couldn't tell the servants apart from the genteel.  That time is coming to an end right about the time period of Downton, but it isn't over (see: Mrs. Hughes' available wardrobe).  It really was a huge gift -- probably more expensive than a few/several/many years of Mrs. Hughes' wages.

Edited January 20, 2016 by crowceilidh

[Black Knight]

1.

I do agree that Mary thought she was doing something nice.

 

2.

I can blame her though.  Over and over again we get Mary having an attitude where it never seems to occur to her that others might think differently. 

Absolutely. Especially since Cora told Mary several times, prior to this episode, that Mrs. Hughes might well have her own ideas about her own wedding. Mary ignored all of Cora's warnings.

 

But it is consistent with Mary's character that she's so terrible at reading a room or what's going on with anyone else. That's how all of Downton except Mary knows that Marigold is Edith's daughter. (Though I'm guessing that Tom's return may lead to that cat finally getting out of the bag.)

 

The other thing that really got me about Mary in this episode was, of course, the scene when Cora comes home. I know that if my mother came home, in a terrible mood, complaining of a headache and saying she was going straight to her room to lie down, I would either race up the stairs ahead of her to kick everyone out of her room so she could lie down in peace, or I would catch up to her and hurriedly explain the situation, and then race up the stairs to explain to the others that my mother was not feeling well and they need to go now. But under no circumstances would I let my grumpy, headachy, tired mother, who just wants to rest, enter her room to be surprised by three people going through her clothes - nor would I dump the burden of the explanation on those three people (who as servants, are in a difficult and awkward position). Mary didn't serve anyone well there - not Cora, not Mrs. Hughes, not Anna, not Mrs. Patmore - and all apparently because she's too lazy to get off her couch.

 

And while Cora certainly shouldn't have lost her temper the way she did, for her it was a rare departure from her usual behavior. Earlier in the episode we saw her telling Mrs. Patmore not to hesitate to charge the Crawley house account for the wedding reception, and then she made sure that Mrs. Hughes would have the kind of reception she really wanted. And afterwards she apologized sincerely and gracefully. So Cora had a bad moment, whereas Mary consistently acts this awful.

 

On another note, did anyone else kind of feel like Laura Carmichael broke character with her final line delivery of "Marigold," (when Marigold went to hug Sybbie)? The way she said it just sounded so un-Edith.

 

I actually am rather interested in the hospital drama. The point has been made that the local hospital would get better equipment, and I just keep wondering if at any point Sybil's name is going to come up in the discussion. Remember that an angry Cora was ultimately mollified by Dr. Clarkson's claim (I've never been sure whether he really meant it, or if he only said it because the Dowager had told him it was the only way to get Cora to reconcile with Robert, and he just thought that would be best) that Sybil could not have been saved even if she'd been taken to the hospital. So it makes all the sense in the world to me that Cora would want to see the local hospital improved to a level where women in Sybil's condition would actually have a chance to survive, as opposed to just picking between dying at home and dying at the hospital. The quality of the local hospital affects the nearby aristocracy too, because in urgent medical situations it's all they've got, too, same as the villagers. London is only an option for medical needs that can wait for an appointment and a train ride up.

[Portia]

I quite liked the Edith storyline , but I agree that she could have given poor Audrey a more effusive thank-you and the next day off.

Thank Heaven we got Carson and Mrs. H wed. I liked the wedding until old fat face barged in. Just kidding...I just wanted to rile y'all up. Tom's fine, but I don't idolize him, that's all.

The cousin hug was cute, but the little one playing Marigold looked as bewildered as ever.

The scene where Cora got angry was soooo lazily written. Of course she would have been thrown off-balance and possibly annoyed, but her displeasure would have been telegraphed much more passively. Mrs. Hughes would be sensitive to any hint of displeasure or awkwardness, so the plot could have still been advanced, but in a much more realistic fashion.

OK, who do I need to sleep with to ensure that Molesly ends up as a schoolteacher with a nice wife whose name is Baxter (does she even have a first name?)? He's been the butt monkey far too long.

[CeeBeeGee]

 

I would feel the same if it weren't for poor, dear Mr. Mason.  He dotes on Daisy and he is obviously in dire straits. I hope to heck something falls in place for the poor man, he's such a sweetie.

 

Easiest solution and most obvious (for JF if not for the actual characters)--have Mr. Mason and the Drewes swap tenant farms. It will mean someone will have to change their specialty (pigs to dairy or whatever) but it's better than nothing.

 

Remember the party -- was it for Boxing Day? -- when Barrow and the Dowager Countess had their waltz? I think he asked her if she knew how to dance the "Black Bottom"! That was one time a year when masters and servants mixed, and we saw that it was a bit stuffy and not exactly a relaxed occasion but that each side had a part to play in making a fine evening.

 

I loved that dance! The Dowager Countess can draw out anyone (remember when she got Daisy to open up whilst stoking the fires in the library?), I bet she could make Thomas see that a great many of his problems (obviously not all) are from his own surliness and suspicious nature.

[Llywela]

The Crawleys would still have kept their hall boys in 1925?  I thought they would have been the first to go, even at Downton? 

Nah, they'd have kept the hallboy and let more expensive servants go first. The hallboy was dirt cheap and fulfilled a valuable function. Several valuable functions, in fact.

Easiest solution and most obvious (for JF if not for the actual characters)--have Mr. Mason and the Drewes swap tenant farms. It will mean someone will have to change their specialty (pigs to dairy or whatever) but it's better than nothing.

They can't swap - Mr Mason's new landlord has withdrawn his lease because he wants to farm the land himself instead of hiring it out to tenant farmers. That's why Mr Mason needs a new farm in the first place. A lot of landowners were doing likewise at this time - the Crawleys have talked about it too.

[Badger]

The hallboys also did valet work for the upper male servants.  There's a short scene last season where Thomas is reading the paper and one of the hallboys brings his shoes and puts them on him.  

[Mrsjumbo]

Not only did Edith barely thank Audrey, she also assumed she would pull an all nighter without even asking her.

[Roseanna]

I even thought Mary - and y'all know I pretty much hate her - was trying to do something nice for the Carsons, in her own fashion. Downton is, without a doubt, the grandest building in the vicinity, and "grand" is what many people want for their wedding. It's certainly what Mary would want for hers. So she thought she was offering them something highly desirable, as a note of gratitude for Carson's years of service.

I'm not even sure I can accuse her of not listening to their wishes. After all, Carson never could bring himself to actually say, "we don't want to have it here," I think in part because he did want to have it there. So he kept throwing up token excuses for staging it elsewhere, which Mary found "helpful" solutions for. I guess she could have sought out Mrs. Hughes specifically to get her thoughts, but she knows Carson well, and why would she think he wasn't being truthful?

When confronted with the truth she certainly should have acquiesced more gracefully. But I think she still thought that Mrs. Hughes was declining from some sense of order, and that Carson wanted it there (which again, I think he did).

 

Mary meant well but she knew, or at least should know, that a servant can't say bluntly "we don't want it here", but would rather say "we are honored but"  (aren't the English generally good at understatement anyhow?) 

 

Besides, Carson adores Mary and would sacrifice his own wishes to please Mary. So we can't know which motive he really had. Probably both. 

 

Mary is good to make decisions which is good in business, but it can cause problems in human relations. Mary is generally keen to feel that Anna is low despite her words that all is fine, and she knows that Tom is generally honest with her, but she is less good with others. She doesn't bother her head to ponder what opinions and values they might have because her own are self-evidently the best.   

 

Therefore Mary simply waved off when Mrs Hughes said that she wanted the guests sit at the tables by saying that it wasn't done any more, meaning that it wasn't done by the fancy upper class. She had no understanding that different people want different things. Mrs Hughes didn't want a stiff coctail party but a comfortable and merry feast.  

[albaniantv]

Maybe Tom had to come home because Mary wrote him about Papa's digestive problems. Now, when Donk Crawley keels over in the garden (they must have one somewhere on the grounds) while playing with the grandkids, a la Godfather, there will be two to share the responsibilities of running the place. Mary of course, won't figure out she has a niece until the will is read.

[Roseanna]

Not only did Edith barely thank Audrey, she also assumed she would pull an all nighter without even asking her.

 

We can't know that because all is not shown. On the basis of what we saw, Audrey was so glad that the editor left that she regarded the night-job as self-evident.

 

In general, "dull" and self-evident parts are left out. Fellowes evidently decided to concentrate on the romance which meant that the part of the staff - which otherwise would have been central - was ignored. 

[sark1624]

Not only did Edith barely thank Audrey, she also assumed she would pull an all nighter without even asking her.

 

Yes, but the people working in a magazine knows how is the deal there, they know that if the magazine dont get printed in the correct time all there are going to suffer, in other words, all there are in the same boat.

 

I think that you must think that Bertie is a man in very sexist period, so that a "english gentleman"  ex army officer and estate agent offered his help to work in the night in a woman magazine is a big thing, and he offered to make sandwiches and coffee, ,.not take comand, and he really helped in the end. Do you imagine Robert doing such thing? Just wait and see how is the marriage betwen Mrs Hughes and Carson? .

[Roseanna]

They can't swap - Mr Mason's new landlord has withdrawn his lease because he wants to farm the land himself instead of hiring it out to tenant farmers. That's why Mr Mason needs a new farm in the first place. A lot of landowners were doing likewise at this time - the Crawleys have talked about it too.

 

Originally Mary and Tom wanted to have Drewe's farm to the estate, until Robert intervened and loaned Mr Drewe 50 pounds to pay what Mr Drewe's father owned to him. Tending pigs was an extra job to Mr Drewe that doesn't need to be connected to the farm.

[Kohola3]

So it makes all the sense in the world to me that Cora would want to see the local hospital improved to a level where women in Sybil's condition would actually have a chance to survive, as opposed to just picking between dying at home and dying at the hospital.

 

Good point, hadn't thought of that.  It will be interesting to see if Cora verbalizes it at some point.

[RedHawk]

Not only did Edith barely thank Audrey, she also assumed she would pull an all nighter without even asking her.

My boss on a magazine 10 years ago would have done the same and I would not have expected to be "asked" nor given the next day off. (Probably would have come in late though. We don't know for sure Audrey didn't get the day off.)

A deadline is a deadline. Audrey would have been aware of that. I think she was thrilled that Edith got rid of Old Fat Jowls (who likely had chased her around the desk once or twice or tried to pinch her bottom) and was willing to help her succeed.

[RedHawk]

I so liked Mrs. Hughes speaking up for the reception she wanted when Cora gave her the chance. Rather than being deferential to the Family AND Mr. Carson in that scene, she interrupted him with "No" and simply stated her wishes. I think she even said "we" would like or were hoping to... and then described the sit-down breakfast plan.

She then corrected Lady Mary's haughty and condescending, "Does anyone do that any more?" with "Many people do." My admiration of Mrs. Hughes shot up another 1000%.

She's too good for Carson, but that's ok because he WON'T be getting his way in everything in the future. She'll be the one to make their retirement business a success, probably despite him.

Edited January 20, 2016 by RedHawk

[PRgal]

My boss on a magazine 10 years ago would have done the same and I would not have expected to be "asked" nor given the next day off. (Probably would have come in late though. We don't know for sure Audrey didn't get the day off.)

A deadline is a deadline. Audrey would have been aware of that. I think she was thrilled that Edith got rid of Old Fat Jowls (who likely had chased her around the desk once or twice or tried to pinch her bottom) and was willing to help her succeed.

 

1. I had a boss like that too (when I was in publishing).  It's just part of the industry.

 

2. I'm still surprised someone like Edith (an upper class woman in the 1920s who had not only never worked in an office prior to the magazine, but was also home schooled as a girl) would have the guts to fire Mr. Butt-Chaser.  There are people who can't today. Because Mr. Butt-Chaser had likely been with the publication for YEARS. 

[ShadowFacts]

I so liked Mrs. Hughes speaking up for the reception she wanted when Cora gave her the chance. Rather than being deferential to the Family AND Mr. Carson in that scene, she interrupted him with "No" and simply stated her wishes. I think she even said "we" would like or were hoping to... and then described the sit-down breakfast plan.

She then corrected Lady Mary's haughty and condescending, "Does anyone do that any more?" with "Many people do." My admiration of Mrs. Hughes shot up another 1000%.

She's too good for Carson, but that's ok because he WON'T be getting his way in everything in the future. She'll be the one to make their retirement business a success, probably despite him.

 

Yes to this times 100.  I have always liked Mrs. Hughes a lot, but this seals the deal for me.  Especially not letting Mary bully her.  Thank heavens Cora read the situation correctly and gave her the opportunity to speak her mind, because would she have done it voluntarily?  She's not excessively deferential like Carson, but would she have put her foot down without Cora's opening the conversation?  I'm glad it turned out the way it did.

 

Maybe Tom had to come home because Mary wrote him about Papa's digestive problems. Now, when Donk Crawley keels over in the garden (they must have one somewhere on the grounds) while playing with the grandkids, a la Godfather, there will be two to share the responsibilities of running the place. Mary of course, won't figure out she has a niece until the will is read.

 

I think Robert is pretty clearly heading for a heart attack.  In those days, there was no bypass surgery or stents, or really much of anything.  Robert might be a goner, because in the midst of a wedding and a probably baby and romance for Edith and Tom's return, let's face it, someone will probably have to depart.

[lucindabelle]

I actually am rather interested in the hospital drama. The point has been made that the local hospital would get better equipment, and I just keep wondering if at any point Sybil's name is going to come up in the discussion. Remember that an angry Cora was ultimately mollified by Dr. Clarkson's claim (I've never been sure whether he really meant it, or if he only said it because the Dowager had told him it was the only way to get Cora to reconcile with Robert, and he just thought that would be best) that Sybil could not have been saved even if she'd been taken to the hospital. So it makes all the sense in the world to me that Cora would want to see the local hospital improved to a level where women in Sybil's condition would actually have a chance to survive, as opposed to just picking between dying at home and dying at the hospital. The quality of the local hospital affects the nearby aristocracy too, because in urgent medical situations it's all they've got, too, same as the villagers. London is only an option for medical needs that can wait for an appointment and a train ride up.

 

Having seen the episode recently during the binge, I think it's clear that he did a little of both. That is, he modified his position, but just before he says "infinitesimal chance" he turns and gives the dowager a little look. Willing to bet that if you asked the actor that's the decision he made. I had to be induced because my mom's blood pressure was rising and she was in danger (and she's never let me forget it lol). Had they all listened to Dr. Clarkson when he first saw the signs, the swollen ankles etc., I think Sybil would have survived.

Mary is good to make decisions which is good in business, but it can cause problems in human relations. Mary is generally keen to feel that Anna is low despite her words that all is fine, and she knows that Tom is generally honest with her, but she is less good with others. She doesn't bother her head to ponder what opinions and values they might have because her own are self-evidently the best.   

 

Therefore Mary simply waved off when Mrs Hughes said that she wanted the guests sit at the tables by saying that it wasn't done any more, meaning that it wasn't done by the fancy upper class. She had no understanding that different people want different things. Mrs Hughes didn't want a stiff coctail party but a comfortable and merry feast.  

 

Great observation on how her decisiveness is a good thing in business.

Small point, though: standing around being served and drinking sounds like a cocktail party to us but cocktails themselves were brand new (wasn't there a scene of a cocktail party?) so it's likely that it was just champagne being poured.

Who wants to take bets that after seeing the fun of a proper party, Edith will want a wedding like that one?

 

Yes, but the people working in a magazine knows how is the deal there, they know that if the magazine dont get printed in the correct time all there are going to suffer, in other words, all there are in the same boat.

 

Several other journalists chimed in to make this point and I agree. Late nights and deadlines are just part of the job. The only issue I have is that there should be "people," not just one secretary-- and at 7 p.m. it was more than early enough to get messages to at least a few of the skilled staff.

And speaking of skills, I know Fellowes cuts out the parts that are uninteresting, but watching Edith magically understand layout was kind of like her magically knowing how to play the flute. I don't need to see her practice or learn, but a line or two about it would go a long way. Because editing and layout are not at all the same as writing, which we've seen her do, or at least talk about. Even the observation that the article is underset by two lines is an editorial one.

[Artymouse]

Good episode overall, I thought. My favorite scenes were: Mary and Anna talking about Anna's pregnancy; Thomas in the decrepit mansion; Mrs. Hughes speaking frankly but tactfully about her wedding wishes; and the wedding itself.

 

I was happy to see the return of Branson (I also noticed that he looked heavier), but I wish he'd waited just a tiny bit longer to speak up, because it did feel like a slight intrusion on the happy couple's toast. 

 

Cora's anger made me very uncomfortable, but it was almost worth it for the scene where she apologizes to Mrs. Hughes. I liked that she accepted all of the blame and then gave Mrs. Hughes the lovely coat. Elizabeth McGovern isn't always my favorite actress on the show, and Cora's never been my favorite character, but it's great when they can show another dimension to the character and McGovern has the chance to add shading to the character.

 

I enjoyed Edith's stepping up and putting out the magazine, and Bertie seems almost too good to be true. Since he's interested in Edith, that probably means he's secretly crazy, secretly married, secretly impotent, or after her money. I hope I'm wrong, because I liked their scenes together, and despite Edith's appalling behavior toward the Drewes, she is overdue for some happiness.

 

And for the love of sanity, can someone make Daisy shut up? She seems to have no sense of discretion, and poor Mr. Mason is probably going to suffer for it (again).

[Soraya]

For those wanting a hint of Edith working on the layout of a magazine. There was! In season 3 as this picture shows. If you remember this scene, you'll remember that the purpose of this scene was to establish Gregson's interest in Edith. So obviously the details in putting a layout weren't in the script. But this scene was! Gregson is showing her the layout of the magazine way back in S3. Take out your DVD or whatever you have. I think this is Edith clearly looking at the layout of the magazine way back in S3. So since were in S6 I can buy she has a grasp on how a magazine works.

I'm usually a lurker. But I'll be back after work to post something that I've got to say. Anyways I've signed up and I'll be joining the party for just a little bit, but maybe not. But I had to post this quickly for those who forget some of the subtle details of Edith's working at the magazine since season 3.

 

I'm off to work. But I shall be back.

[ShadowFacts]

Good job, Soraya!  You've got a hawk eye and a good memory.  I think Edith would know a thing or two about the overall workings of the magazine, besides just the writing aspect, or Gregson wouldn't have created a formal structure leaving her in charge.  Of course he didn't expect to be murdered, but still he could have left it in someone else's hands.