S31.E14: Lie, Cheat, And Steal / S31.E15: Live Reunion

[Ms Blue Jay]

BTW: a 2/3rds black final 3?  Progress for this show, eh?  And yet at the same time I'm glad it wasn't really discussed in those terms.  

 

Fiji was an all black Final 3 wasn't it?

Cook was a 2/3 Asian Final 3.  And Ozzy is Latino!

I don't remember many others.  Those are two of my favourite seasons.

 

To paraphrase Viola Davis, you'd have to actually cast minorities to see minorities in the Final 3.  Cook was multiracial because it was the Race Wars season.  Fiji seemed to be multiracial because they used the leftover mulitracial cast from Cook.  If anything, the show has regressed.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[Paws]

According to this slate article, Brazilians don't consider themselves Hispanic or latino http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/05/is_hispanic_the_same_thing_as_latina.html

Edited December 19, 2015 by Paws

[Fretful]

One of my favorite pieces was the way Jeremy handled Keith's potential idol.  He convinced Keith to vote for Spencer. So Jeremy was in the perfect position.  If Keith has an idol- Jeremy is safe because Spencer is out.  If Keith doesn't have an idol- Keith is voted out and Jeremy doesn't have to turn on his core alliance.  It's these kinds of subtle moves that defined Jeremy's season and demonstrated  (to me anyway) that he really was in control fo the game and deserved the win.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Fretful

[millennium]

I think it hit Spencer like a ton of bricks....what was I thinking?? Why didn't I ever try to get Jeremy out?!

 

Jeremy was the New-and-Improved-Social-Spencer's first friend.   He opened up to Jeremy, talking about his girlfriend, etc.   Spencer got so caught up in the joy of finally being one of the cool kids that he lost sight of Jeremy as a threat.

[Zuleikha]

Tasha and Spencer were pretty much the only two people with a hard path through the game that actually went far.  Spencer's name was almost _always_ being tossed around and had to bounce from alliance to alliance quite a few times, including actually having to get _Kass_ on his side.

This is not true! Prior to the finale, Spencer's name was tossed around a grand total of twice: the second vote on Ta Keo (that he didn't do any brilliant strategy to get out of; Shirin simply messed up trying to talk people into voting off Varner) and at the second tribal swap. Spencer did not have to get Kass on his side. Kass came to Spencer and warned Spencer about Savage's planned blindside, something Spencer was completely clueless about.

Other than those two times, Spencer sat pretty in a majority alli--er, I mean voting bloc. His grand plan was apparently to flip on Jeremy at f4 (thus, ensuring maximum bitterness) and go to FTC with Wentworth and Tasha. He had alternate paths he could have taken to get to an FTC without either Jeremy or Kelley but he barely tried for them.

 

I don't see how Kimmi could have beaten either of them....especially not Spencer...take Jeremy out of that final tribal and substitute him with Kimmie and there is no way.

Because the editing lied to us and failed to show us Kimmi's game. It's that simple. Kimmi was portrayed as a goat, who was doing nothing. Spencer got tons of confessionals wherewas Kimmi got almost none. But what we weren't being show is that Kimmi forged a tight bond with Stephen, and that bond was why she felt comfortable in the Stephen/Jeremy/Tasha group. We were shown her labeling Abi/Ciera/Kelley as witches, but we were never shown the parts later when Kimmi built tight bonds with Wigles but also Keith and Kelley. She recognized that she'd lost her position in the Jeremy-based alliance and made moves to get to FTC on her own (and if she was in FTC, that would mean she succeeded at some point).

 

But most importantly, it is clear from post-show interviews that people simply liked her more than Spencer or Tasha. At the end of the day, that's all it takes. If someone makes it to FTC, they have a compelling argument that their strategy was just as good as anyone they're sitting next to: after all, they all got there. The winner is always going to be the one who the jury likes more.

[KimberStormer]

Bryce Lynch, on 18 Dec 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

His biggest mistake was his big move of playing the idol to save Fishbach as that was completely contrary to his stealth strategy.

 

Personally I think his biggest mistake was failing to see the Kimmi flip but I agree that was a poor move too.  Jeremy made mistakes, but his complete game was so great that he could overcome them.

 

himela, on 18 Dec 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

 Jeremy could not win an immunity challenge against Joe, Spencer and Wentworth, so this does not make him a threat or a strong head of the alliance, it makes him weak.

 

Did you know that Survivor is not an athletic competition?

 

absolutqt, on 18 Dec 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

  And I understand that Kimmi may have believed that she needed to make a big move but I think she gets taken to the end regardless of who had final immunity. IMHO, her "big move" cost her a F3 spot.

 

Good!  Good!!  Kimmi, in the end, was playing to win, not playing for F3!  Ciera and I are applauding her.  Who cares if you get to F3 if you can't win it?  I honestly think the winner should get the million and everyone else should get the same flat runner-up prize, because that's what they all are.  1 winner and 19 (or however many) runners-up.  Go for the win!  Fuck second place!

 

Bryce Lynch, on 18 Dec 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

She also pushed the vote splitting idea in a way that made it was obvious she was up to something. She should have waited for someone else to suggest it or said, "You don't think Kelley has an idol, do you? Should would split votes just to be safe?"

 

Is that what happened?  I remember it being Spencer and Tasha who suggested splitting the vote.  I remember specifically because I was thinking "don't suggest splitting it, Kimmi, let them come up with it."  Maybe I'm wrong, though.

[Oscirus]

I like Jeremy, but I think that's some revisionist history on his part. Of course he's saying that now because that's how the F3 ended up, but that time of the game is when you make F3 deals with anyone you're stuck in a trio with. He called the reward challenge Kelley's biggest mistake, but Kelley said that at that point in time she still trusted Spencer and so she left him there with them

 

I tend to believe that was when it was formed. Between Spencer's hurt feelings, the amount of alone time they spent together and his hearing about the forming of a woman's alliance ( which I don't get how Kelley would feel betrayed by Spencer when she was part of that), I think that their final 3 was formed there.

 

Maybe it's also revisionist history on Spencer's part, but he said had he won final IC he would not have taken Jeremy to F3, and would have taken his chances against Wentworth. But I believe that he would have actually done that if only based on his outburst at Woo during Cagayan.

 

Spencer wouldn't have had a choice, I doubt Tasha was going to flip so the best he could've done was force a tie and forcing Kelley to do a fire making challenge against a fireman? I don't like her chances in that scenario.

 

I never noticed that he was some kind of chief there. The image I have from him is looking at his shoes while others decide how to vote

 

If you watch the season again, you'll notice people coming to him a lot for decisions on who to boot.

 

he didn't win any immunity that requires brains lack and strength did he?

 

 

That last immunity  requires focus which requires brains. His balance and strength weren't the problems in challenges, it was his puzzle solving abilities and endurance that was the problem.

 

Kimmi was hiding behind her alliance, as did Tasha, as did Jeremy. Spencer at least had to do some serious scrambling to stay in the game pre merge while Jeremy had not even gone to a tribal council yet, because of Joe extraordinary skills in immunity challenges

 

Joe was with Jeremy twice before the flip and after the second flip he lost his only heat in the immunity challenge so no, Joe's extraordinary immunity skills didn't keep Jeremy safe for the majority of the premerge.

 

At that F6 tribal council, Spencer whispered to Kelley, "you're good", as if to reassure her. He didn't believe she had an idol, he thought he would successfully strong arm Kimmi into voting Kelley. Why would he want to send Kelley to the jury with their last interaction being him unnecessarily lying to her?

 

Whether he admits it or not, I seriously think that Spencer was trying to get Kelley to play the idol on the off chance she had it.  He smokes out the idol and gets rid of a jury threat in one fell swoop, voila.  I don't think he was counting on Jeremy having one.

 

Not only did Spencer have a more difficult path, but his decisions and influence mattered far more in the vote-outs that occurred.  And he won more immunity challenges.  Frankly, he deserved it more based on actual strategic/challenge/strength-of-difficulty gameplay.

 

In the second episode, the only thing that stopped Spencer from leaving was the fact that Shirin decided to jump in front of the gun and take the bullet meant from him, in his next tribal, he  was also blindsided by the vote, in the next one, once again, he was blindsided on the vote and needed Kass to save him. As a matter of fact, he didn't even have control of the votes until the Stephen boot episode.  Are we now rewarding people for playing a quarter of the game?

 

Personally I think his biggest mistake was failing to see the Kimmi flip but I agree that was a poor move too.

 

 

Does it count as a mistake if you don't follow through with your instincts?

 

 

[LanceM]

I tend to believe that was when it was formed. Between Spencer's hurt feelings, the amount of alone time they spent together and his hearing about the forming of a woman's alliance ( which I don't get how Kelley would feel betrayed by Spencer when she was part of that), I think that their final 3 was formed there.

 

 

Kelley has said that the womens alliance was never a thing out there.  It was just one of those ideas that was thrown out there. What was a thing though was her relationship with Spencer that was never really shown.  They were very close out there and that is why she trusted him  with Jeremy and Tasha on that reward. Spencer then went on to betray her at the next tribal council.  Spencer has confirmed this in his exit interviews:

 

Bledsoe: I meant betrayed as in; I betrayed her and I felt really bad about it. What you missed is that we got really close. We talked about a lot of personal stuff. We related to each other, we connected. We had a trust and so that was the bond that I felt the worst about breaking. And I didn’t realize how upset she was. I’ve never had any bad feelings toward Kelley, but she probably has some toward me. I felt bad about that one.

[Nashville]

At that F6 tribal council, Spencer whispered to Kelley, "you're good", as if to reassure her.

 

May be just me, but I didn't take Spencer's "you're good" comment to Kelley to be reassuring in any way. 

To me, it came across as Spencer congratulating Kelley on her slyness - a kinda-compliment from one manipulator to another on a skilled move.

[allthatglitters]

I don't understand why Probst and Wentworth were giving Keith a hard time at the reunion for not playing his fake idol at Tribal Council. What would that have accomplished? Probst would have declared it fake and thrown it into the fire.

He flashed that fake idol to Jeremy a couple times.  

 

I kind of see Keith's point.  If he'd pulled it out and flaunted it, they'd ask to see it and then they could tell it was fake.  The Ponderosa people could tell.  He put the bait out and they didn't bite.  If he'd waved it in front of their faces like they were morons, he'd just go out looking stupid and desperate.  

 

It definately would have looked like a rouse if he had just flashed it at TC.  But that would have at least been something at least, you never know. But IMO Kelly should have convinced Keith to show it to the tribe back at camp. Non chalantly. Just pull it out wrapped in the official note. Then put it on so they can't get too good a look, and hand them the very real note that came with it to study closer. Then put it away once they were convinced. Keith could have even said something along the lines of .."I didn't want to just pull the HII out at TC and make you have to decide suddenly like that between you three, so i thought i'd show it now so you'd have the time to work it out before."  Come off as the nice guy, but what it would do is cause all three to panic and try and get on the good side of Keith and Kelly.  Keith is an interesting character. I really didn't like him on his original appearance. He was a part of the good ole boys sexist club and said some very disgusting things. But the producers recreated him into an aw-shucks loveable hillbilly this time around.

 

I'm guessing that Kelley is always making a face and swishing her hair. I've tried to overcome my dislike of her because she really is a very good player and during the reunion, I was thinking, oh, she's not so bad when she's out of the game. But then Jeff commented on Keith being emotional about Kimmi, and Kelley had to jump in with, "WE'RE ALL EMOTIONAL. WE'VE ALL BEEN EMOTIONAL ALL DAY," and all my dislike for her came rushing back because God forbid someone stop paying attention to her for five minutes. That moment was about Keith and Kimmi; why she had to start yelling over Keith is just more of her relentless camera mugging. She's a great player and a fan favorite so I know we're going to see her and her Nellie Oleson face for a third time, but FFS I wish she'd give it a rest.

 

 

I actually thought that was quite sweet of Kelley.  I thought she was attempting to make Keith feel not as isolated and embarrassed for tearing up and breaking down by sharing the burden by saying they'd all been like that that day.

[himela]

Did you know that Survivor is not an athletic competition?

Weird that you say that cause many winners have won exactly because they were better at challenges than others (the most recent is last season's Mike who won his way to the end). Should I mention Boston Rob, Ozzy, Malcolm, Terry etc? Some of them did not win but they surely made it far exactly cause they were great athletes. It's outwit, outPLAY, outlast.

[SlackerInc]

Strange that they didn't edit F6 into a single episode.  Would have been one of the most talked-about episodes ever, instead of somewhat fading due to being the early portion of the finale.

 

Cool second challenge.

 

Kelly Wigglesworth really tarnished her image with me this season. I had lamented her one-vote loss all these years, but no longer do so. And she made it even worse by emulating that stupid "pick a number" thing. That said, Jeremy made a foolish choice, and Tasha reacted poorly by choosing as one would if they were the only two picking. Spencer got to swoop in at the end and take the majority of the real estate along that number line.

 

No votes for Spencer, srsly?

 

Disgusting that they would play up medical evacuations as "awesome" elements of the next season. It makes me tempted to not watch, although I'm sure my willpower will crumble. But seriously, CBS: not cool.

 

As is typical of recent seasons' finales, they hardly talked to any of the season's players. But this time, it was not obvious what they wasted their time on instead. They didn't talk to random kids in the audience, or Boston Rob, etc. Yet it was apparently an hour long as usual...

[marys1000]

Am I the only one that didn't like how the Idols protected them beyond one vote? 

[phlebas]

Am I the only one that didn't like how the Idols protected them beyond one vote? 

You mean with the drawing rocks thing?  I think Keith probably agrees with you. But if you make the idols useless against the rocks, then you should do the same with the necklace.

 

I don't actually have a problem with how it works now, and I doubt we're going to get another TC like we got this season any time soon. But changing it would encourage the people with vote immunity to work to avoid ties.

[BigRedCheese]

 

Am I the only one that didn't like how the Idols protected them beyond one vote?

 

I don't know if you're the only one, but if they didn't protect them for the whole Tribal Council, idols would be pretty near worthless.

Edited December 19, 2015 by BigRedCheese

[peachmangosteen]

One of my favorite pieces was the way Jeremy handled Keith's potential idol.  He convinced Keith to vote for Spencer. So Jeremy was in the perfect position.  If Keith has an idol- Jeremy is safe because Spencer is out.  If Keith doesn't have an idol- Keith is voted out and Jeremy doesn't have to turn on his core alliance.  It's these kinds of subtle moves that defined Jeremy's season and demonstrated  (to me anyway) that he really was in control fo the game and deserved the win.

 

The edit didn't present this as a strategic play from Jeremy because they were trying to present it like Jeremy was actually torn between keeping Spencer or Kelley, but I agree with you, it most definitely was a strategic move by him and it's a very good one. 

 

But most importantly, it is clear from post-show interviews that people simply liked her more than Spencer or Tasha. At the end of the day, that's all it takes. If someone makes it to FTC, they have a compelling argument that their strategy was just as good as anyone they're sitting next to: after all, they all got there. The winner is always going to be the one who the jury likes more.

 

This. Like really tbh it's basically that simple every single time.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Weird that you say that cause many winners have won exactly because they were better at challenges than others (the most recent is last season's Mike who won his way to the end). Should I mention Boston Rob, Ozzy, Malcolm, Terry etc? Some of them did not win but they surely made it far exactly cause they were great athletes. It's outwit, outPLAY, outlast.

 

None of them barring Mike have won, except for Rob on his fourth try of playing.

 

Jeremy outwitted and outlasted the version of this type of player (Joe) this season.  Joe in my opinion , has absolutely no game in the outwit section, for example.  The only thing keeping him in the game were ICs and then other people doing dirty work to keep him in the game.  That episode where he said "Whatever... I'm going home... can't do nothing about it."  A player like Jeremy is not going to say that.

 

Again, not an athletic competition.  That's just part of it.  And if it was all based on athletics then about 75% of the cast should have no hope to get to the end and might as well stay home.

 

"Many" winners have made it to the end because they were superior at challenges?  I wonder if that's true.  For example thinking of Yul, he won against challenge monster Ozzy.  Wasn't Tony famously horrendously awful at puzzles?  I remember finding his non-ability at puzzles very funny.   Wasn't he the guy who would frantically move the puzzle pieces around with no plan or thought hoping he would 'luck' into finishing it? Spencer won some puzzle challenges, and Tasha won more athletic ones.  I think Woo won that endurance challenge where he wore the toe socks.  Was Sandra good at challenges?

Edited December 19, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[slowpoked]

 

Spencer wouldn't have had a choice, I doubt Tasha was going to flip so the best he could've done was force a tie and forcing Kelley to do a fire making challenge against a fireman? I don't like her chances in that scenario.

 

But I thought firemen were trained to put out fires, not start one? =p

 

Seriously though, that's what I don't get with Spencer's move to stay put at F5 with Jeremy. He had the perfect opportunity as there are still two people on the bottom, and one of them won immunity.  There's an obvious vote in Keith, and all he had to do was pull Keith and Wentworth on his side. He didn't have to depend on Tasha, which what would have happened at F4 if he had won final IC instead. Instead, Jeremy was the one who almost pulled off the coup. For someone who's apparently a serious student of the game, he let that golden opportunity pass by.

 

 

Bledsoe: I meant betrayed as in; I betrayed her and I felt really bad about it. What you missed is that we got really close. We talked about a lot of personal stuff. We related to each other, we connected. We had a trust and so that was the bond that I felt the worst about breaking. And I didn’t realize how upset she was. I’ve never had any bad feelings toward Kelley, but she probably has some toward me. I felt bad about that one.

Kelley also said in one of her scopes that Spencer started being rude to her after the Abi vote. Like, he would constantly tell her how great he is and how he had a great shot at winning the game and how he felt bad for her because she had no chance of going to the end. Spencer thought it was probably gameplay on his part. But for someone you apparently got that close with, which both of you acknowledged, that's just rubbing it in, and Kelley said she found all of it incredibly rude. I'm guessing from that point forward there was no repairing their relationship in terms of working together in the game. I'm glad she stood up to him when he kept badgering her at the last 3 tribals. Spencer probably thought everyone would just bow down in awe to his spectacular gameplay.

[CletusMusashi]

Well, I finally trudged through the last few episodes yesterday.

So Jeremy won, eh? Just like we all knew on, like... episode three? Yeah. Big surprise.

But I did laugh at how over-the-top he went, though, pulling an uber-Savage at the jury and sobbing about his family TO THE RAFTERS! Totally reminded me of the "Oscar-winning scene" from Wayne's World.  

Jeff needs to put his stupid hat back on. That Rogaine shit is getting way out of control.

This season had a few great moments. But not enough.

Honestly, I think it's the dullest one that I've ever finished, and I've finished most of them.

And next season they're bringing back a gimmick that was stupid the first time?

It might be the first season I don't even bother starting.

Edited December 19, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[CletusMusashi]

Okay did Jeff say next season they were doing something different?

Yes, but in his defense: he didn't say the show was going to be different.

Maybe he's just planning to grow a mustache.

[CletusMusashi]

Sorry if it's been brought up earlier in the thread.....Did I miss it or was there no fan favorite this season for $100,000?  Or did they stop doing that?

I think Jeff privately had Joe and Terry wrestle for it. In their underwear.

And then paid another hundred grande for their underwear.

[jaync]

Hee, I just saw Jeff Varner earlier today at Walmart.

 

Jeremy deserved to win if only because the others were too stupid to realize that he had a second idol (as nobody gives their one and only idol to someone else when there's still nine people left in the game).

 

Please tell me Joe won't be on the Beauty tribe next season.

 

 

 

[BigRedCheese]

 

was there no fan favorite this season for $100,000?  Or did they stop doing that?

 

Sprint stopped sponsoring that awhile back, and I guess Probst/Burnett didn't want to pay for it themselves. Not to worry, RHAP has a fan favorite vote, the prize is, I think an oven mitt.

[Nashville]

But I thought firemen were trained to put out fires, not start one? =p

 

Every fireman I've ever known was a closet pyro, bar none.  :)

[Katesus7]

Weird that you say that cause many winners have won exactly because they were better at challenges than others (the most recent is last season's Mike who won his way to the end). Should I mention Boston Rob, Ozzy, Malcolm, Terry etc? Some of them did not win but they surely made it far exactly cause they were great athletes. It's outwit, outPLAY, outlast.

The only two time winner of Survivor never won a comp. What is your point? To me, it's simple. Jeremy won the game, therefore he played the best game. I have said that every year, even in years where I HATED the winner. Even that time Probst (or whoever) finally stacked the deck in Rob's favor and he played with a bunch of sheep who carried him to the win. He played the best game that year because he won. Sandra played the best game both years she won because she won. You don't get extra votes at the end for winning challenges. Or for being targeted more times.

[peachmangosteen]

To me, it's simple. Jeremy won the game, therefore he played the best game. I have said that every year, even in years where I HATED the winner.

 

I agree. Except Bob. I will never agree that Bob played the best game. My Bob hate is still as potent as the day he won. It's probably unhealthy!

[BigRedCheese]

I guess the way I put it is that whoever won deserved to win, because they won. The jury is not given a checklist that they have to base their vote on, if they want to vote based on who they like more, or on who they dislike more, that's fine by me. The winner isn't always someone I like or even think played the best game, but they always deserve it because they won. I despise Tasha as a person, but if she got the jurors to write her name down for the win, then fine, she deserved it. I think sometimes people get too hung up on the tagline, it's just a tagline, it doesn't mean they have to vote for someone based on that, if they want to vote based on need, picking a number, flipping a coin, or hair color, it's all good as far as I'm concerned. If they vote that way, then it's because they don't feel anybody up there deserves their vote, which is on the finalists.

[needschocolate]

Seriously though, that's what I don't get with Spencer's move to stay put at F5 with Jeremy. He had the perfect opportunity as there are still two people on the bottom, and one of them won immunity.  There's an obvious vote in Keith, and all he had to do was pull Keith and Wentworth on his side. He didn't have to depend on Tasha, which what would have happened at F4 if he had won final IC instead. Instead, Jeremy was the one who almost pulled off the coup. For someone who's apparently a serious student of the game, he let that golden opportunity pass by.

 

I think Spencer was so certain that his efforts to become a real boy had paid off and he would get a bunch of votes at the final.  But he wasn't as "human" as he thought he was being.  

 

Spencer's only hope for winning (assuming the same final 5) would have been to be sitting with Tasha and Keith.  

 

Although, I don't know about Keith.  I wish they would have asked the jury how they would have voted if Keith had made it to the final.  He seemed well liked (in that we didn't hear any talking heads complaining about him) and did well at challenges, especially considering he was older than everyone else.  

 

Then again, those "Who would you vote for if it would have been..." polls need to be take with a huge grain of salt.  Supposedly, Kimmi would have won if she made it to the end, but maybe people were just saying that because they liked Kimmi on a personal level and didn't want her to feel bad knowing they think she played a lousy game. Or perhaps they said they would vote for Kimmi because of something that happened between filming the final tribal and the reunion - some new information they didn't have at the time. 

[Kromm]

Spencer's only hope for winning (assuming the same final 5) would have been to be sitting with Tasha and Keith.

Keith would have tried his "Ahm a humble ordin'ry gah" stuff, and it might have even worked on a few jurors. That said, I agree that Spencer would have had a decent base there to build on a "I'm here with these two followers" approach. Not his personal followers so much, but there's definitely a value to being able to argue you were the outsider with the tougher road. Keith was an outsider too, but his plan of never ruffling feathers only worked out due to... I dunno. Actually it's kind of a miracle since they all should have realized he's far too likable/"humble" to allow to go near the end.

Without Jeremy right there next to her, I bet Tasha would have claimed she pulled the strings on everything her alliance did(although if he'd been sitting across in the jury I wonder what he would have thought of that). But really, overall, I have no idea what her endgame strategy really was. I don't get why she thought anyone would vote for her at all. Not that she was hated, I suppose, but there was definitely the whiff of indifference when the jury bothered to address her at all.

[Skeeter22]

It's still baffling that Spencer didn't go to Kelley and Keith at F5 and try to vote out Jeremy. He probably would have lost to both of them as well, but we know he thought he had a better shot against them. He now says he would have voted Jeremy off at F4, but I just don't buy it now. He had a clean shot and he didn't take it. I really think Spencer thought he was the biggest threat out there, and played accordingly. He played like he could beat anyone left if he just got to the end.

[BigRedCheese]

The JT curse has now been passed from Fischback to Spencer.

[Zuleikha]

Supposedly, Kimmi would have won if she made it to the end,

I don't think anyone's said she would have won against anyone but rather she would have won against Spencer and Tasha. Stephen's walked back his certainty that Kelley would have won against Jeremy--although it certainly is a strong possibility--so I don't see how anyone could be certain Kimmi would have either. I think Kelley would have beat Kimmi.

 

Keith probably would have won against Spencer and Tasha, too. It sounds like those two were just not well liked or respected on the island... kind of like how Fabio won because people just didn't like Chase and Sash, even though I don't think anyone really thought that Fabio played a better game.

[phlebas]

I don't think anyone's said she would have won against anyone but rather she would have won against Spencer and Tasha. Stephen's walked back his certainty that Kelley would have won against Jeremy--although it certainly is a strong possibility--so I don't see how anyone could be certain Kimmi would have either. I think Kelley would have beat Kimmi.

 

Keith probably would have won against Spencer and Tasha, too. It sounds like those two were just not well liked or respected on the island... kind of like how Fabio won because people just didn't like Chase and Sash, even though I don't think anyone really thought that Fabio played a better game.

I think Jeremy beats anyone this season. At least anyone from the final six.  Kelley beats anyone but Jeremy.  Keith and Spencer are a tossup in my mind.  Tasha loses to all of them except maybe Kimmi, and I wouldn't bet money on that either.

 

 

And it's a good thing for Fabio NaOnka quit.  According to a reliable source (NaOnka), she would have won going away.  I think the game rules are different on her planet tho.

Edited December 21, 2015 by phlebas

[kikaha]

One hard part of these alternate histories is that we don't know how Kimmie would have gotten to the finals.  Say the women's alliance holds together... they boot the guys... and Kelley does not win FIC.  Kimmi has a damn good resume.  She played it cool the whole way, got herself to the end without making enemies on the jury, put together the alliance that took down Jeremy, Spencer and, she could argue, Kelley.  If she makes her case at FTC, I could easily see her winning. 

 

I truly hope Keith could not win in any circumstance -- and don't believe Abi could. 

[Kromm]

I think Jeremy beats anyone this season. At least anyone from the final six.  Kelley beats anyone but Jeremy.  Keith and Spencer are a tossup in my mind.  Tasha loses to all of them except maybe Kimmi, and I wouldn't bet money on that either.

It's hard to say. I think Jeremy would have pulled out his generic "for the family!" sob story no matter what, and it's effectiveness may have varied depending on who he was against (if we're really spitballing this enough to consider anyone and not just the real F4 or 5) and THEIR story and how they reacted. I mean some might have even better stories (for example what if Mr. Sick-Kid-In-Hospital had been notified of the kid being in the Hospital but NOT gone home and then gotten to a FTC--bam instant better sob story). Or some, if up in a council against Jeremy might have called him out on the story and found a way to basically say "hey, we all got families--a new(er) kid doesn't change that". I mean Kelly for example might have strongly brought everyone's attention back to strategy and gameplay and while Jeremy does have a few things to say on that, so it's not a hopeless contest, she has the outsider against the odds aspect too. I agree Tasha loses to everyone, although I'm not sure the exception would be Kimmi--who I think people liked even if there wasn't huge respect shown. Keith I still think is the one who beats a lot of people with no thought put into it.  He's got the outsider who persisted angle and then plays up the "aww shcuks country boy" stuff and he's got a lot of pull suddenly. Kelly probably calls him out on that stuff in a FTC and asks if he simply got lucky a lot, but I wonder if anyone else would.  Joe... now Joe would be an interesting test if they actually let him get to FTC. I think he beats anyone but a true strategic mastermind. Kelly would have to hustle a lot to sell herself that way, and Jeremy would have had to say a heck of a lot more on the subject than we actually heard him say (it's amazing he won saying--in what got broadcast at least keeping in mind stuff could have been cut--so little about his strategic decisions).

[pennben]

We can play a thousand and one 'what ifs', but the first question I have about the Jeremy/Kelley faceoff in the F3 is how they get there together from, let's say F6?

[needschocolate]

We can play a thousand and one 'what ifs', but the first question I have about the Jeremy/Kelley faceoff in the F3 is how they get there together from, let's say F6?

 

One possibility -

 

More idols/necklaces get them to final four.  Those four are Tasha, Keith, Jeremy, and Kelley.

 

Keith wins the final immunity and, pulling a Woo, decides he wants to sit with people who deserve the million, so he wants Tasha out.  

 

Jeremy talks to Tasha about voting out Kelley, but since he was surprised that Kimmi tried to get him out, he is wary about Tasha's loyalty.  

 

Kelley talks to Tasha about voting out Jeremy, but since T & J have had a pretty tight alliance (for this season anyway), she doesn't think Tasha will vote with her.  

 

Since Jeremy and Kelley aren't certain which way Tasha will go, and they can't convince Keith to change his mind (he's sticking with the plan), they go with the sure thing and vote out Tasha.  

[pennben]

I've been noodling a bit with the thought this morning, I only think it happens with a fire challenge that Jeremy wins and I only see that happening if Tasha is still there at F4 and won't give up on a tie.

[LanceM]

We can play a thousand and one 'what ifs', but the first question I have about the Jeremy/Kelley faceoff in the F3 is how they get there together from, let's say F6?

The only scenario I can possibly see where this could happen is that Kelley win F4 immunity and tells Tasha and Spencer that she is voting out Jeremy. Spencer goes along with it but Tasha doesn't forcing a tie where Jeremy beats Spencer in a fire challenge. Other than that there is no way the two of them were ever going to be in F3 together.

[phlebas]

It's hard to say. I think Jeremy would have pulled out his generic "for the family!" sob story no matter what, and it's effectiveness may have varied depending on who he was against (if we're really spitballing this enough to consider anyone and not just the real F4 or 5) and THEIR story and how they reacted. I mean some might have even better stories (for example what if Mr. Sick-Kid-In-Hospital had been notified of the kid being in the Hospital but NOT gone home and then gotten to a FTC--bam instant better sob story). Or some, if up in a council against Jeremy might have called him out on the story and found a way to basically say "hey, we all got families--a new(er) kid doesn't change that". I mean Kelly for example might have strongly brought everyone's attention back to strategy and gameplay and while Jeremy does have a few things to say on that, so it's not a hopeless contest, she has the outsider against the odds aspect too. I agree Tasha loses to everyone, although I'm not sure the exception would be Kimmi--who I think people liked even if there wasn't huge respect shown. Keith I still think is the one who beats a lot of people with no thought put into it.  He's got the outsider who persisted angle and then plays up the "aww shcuks country boy" stuff and he's got a lot of pull suddenly. Kelly probably calls him out on that stuff in a FTC and asks if he simply got lucky a lot, but I wonder if anyone else would.  Joe... now Joe would be an interesting test if they actually let him get to FTC. I think he beats anyone but a true strategic mastermind. Kelly would have to hustle a lot to sell herself that way, and Jeremy would have had to say a heck of a lot more on the subject than we actually heard him say (it's amazing he won saying--in what got broadcast at least keeping in mind stuff could have been cut--so little about his strategic decisions).

 

I think once you start going back too far, there's too much chaos theory involved to really make any predictions. Especially if you are going to retcon Terry's story. But at that point, you might as well start from the assumption that Jim Rice gets in over Woo. That's why I said Final 6 -- i think Jeremy sweeps any combination of those other five that doesn't have Kelley in it, and I think he wins against Kelley too -- just not as easily.  

 

Could Jeremy win against Joe?  If Ciera had made it to the finals instead of Tasha, how would that be different? The entire second half of the game would have played out differently.  Terry went home pre-merge -- if his son didn't go into the hospital until after the merge, that changes things in unpredictable ways.

 

I enjoy speculating, but you quickly get to a point where it's creative writing instead of game analysis. 

So my opinion is that by F6, everyone else was drawing dead against Jeremy.  At F7, might as well pick names because I don't know what a FTC with Joe in it looks like.

[slowpoked]

 Keith was an outsider too, but his plan of never ruffling feathers only worked out due to... I dunno. Actually it's kind of a miracle since they all should have realized he's far too likable/"humble" to allow to go near the end.

 

I can see why. Keith is not someone anyone would fear of becoming a master strategist and suddenly taking control of the game, ala-Spencer. He's never going to be the puppet master and he's never going to call the shots. On top of that, he's a loyal vote, and that's a number on your side. If you got him, he's got you all the way. Just look at the Fishbach blindside. Kelley was able to pull him aside and said, it's not Joe, it's Fishbach tonight, and he was a good loyal soldier and voted that way. When Joe tried to play both sides the episode he was voted off, Keith voted Tasha in what seemed to be such a random vote to the audience, but now we all know it was because Joe told the his other alliance to vote Tasha. The ladies flipped and turned on Joe but Keith stayed loyal.

 

In that sense, I can see why Kelley ultimately ended up keeping him over Kimmi. Kimmi might have just come begging back to Jeremy after that whole shenanigans at F6 tribal council, and might have completely left Kelley all alone. In Keith, at least Kelley knew she has a loyal ally, and someone who would never go to the trio of Spencer/Jeremy/Tasha, especially as how he was treated by Spencer during that tribal.

 

He's a good alliance mate to have until the F5 or F4, where you get rid of him so he won't reach the F3. But I don't see any value in getting him out early, like with still more than 5 people remaining. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by slowpoked

[Ms Blue Jay]

In both of those scenarios it just seemed to me that Keith did not want to vote for Joe.  He never voted for Joe once out there.  http://survivor.wikia.com/wiki/Keith_Nale

[ljenkins782]

It definately would have looked like a ruse if he had just flashed it at TC.  But that would have at least been something at least, you never know. But IMO Kelly should have convinced Keith to show it to the tribe back at camp. Non chalantly. Just pull it out wrapped in the official note. Then put it on so they can't get too good a look, and hand them the very real note that came with it to study closer. Then put it away once they were convinced. Keith could have even said something along the lines of .."I didn't want to just pull the HII out at TC and make you have to decide suddenly like that between you three, so i thought i'd show it now so you'd have the time to work it out before."

 

Kelley's mistake was leaving it up to Keith to play the role. She had immunity so there was no risk of the target turning to her, she could have pulled a Mike from last season and done the idol flashing herself with the understanding that it would be played for Keith. 

 

It would have been an even better bluff than Mike pretending to play it for Shirin because it was the very last time an idol could be used so no one would question whether she'd save it for herself for next TC. No guarantee that it would have worked, but Kelley had a better shot of pretending than Keith and her record of idol-finding worked in her favor as well. 

 

And if she did manage to save him, she's got a rock solid ally in Keith. 

[BigRedCheese]

 

she could have pulled a Mike from last season and done the idol flashing herself with the understanding that it would be played for Keith.

 

She said she considered that, but she had already played two idols, and that's not how she played them, she never threatened to play it, she just played it, so she didn't think they would believe her. I'm sure if she knew Keith wouldn't give it shot that she probably would have given it a try, I wish she had too.

[kikaha]

Maybe Kelley could have made the same move Malcolm did at Caramoan.  She already had immunity.  So she pulls out her fake idol and says she's giving it to Keith, making both of them safe... and lets everyone know the two of them are voting for, say, Jeremy. 

 

Wonder what happens then?  

 

ETA: just want to say that this is probably one of my three favorite seasons, along with HvV and Philippines.  Interesting that someone I mostly don't care for -- Abi -- played a big role in two of those seasons. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by kikaha

[slowpoked]

I guess this counts as part of the reunion? Apparently, Tasha skipped the after-parties, most probably because of the goose egg, but not Spencer:

 

 

Ask any member of a Survivor Final 3: It isn’t easy attend the after-party when you’ve just gotten a goose egg from the jury. Tasha couldn’t bring herself to do it, apparently. But Spencer did. He was undoubtedly nervous – I mean, how many of us could face down the endless stream of SuperFan second guessing? – and yet, despite having been forced to relive, only hours before, the regrets of the final four days of the game, he handled the undeniable discomfort with grace and poise.

This blogger also said Wiggles said a lot of goodbyes to castmembers, most probably retreating to Mexico and not being heard of as much. Stephen was a bit terse with him (I'm surprised, he seemed to be the friendliest out there) and Kass was a hit with fans.

[slowpoked]

The last of "What You Didn't See" for this season from Martin Holmes. Here are some interesting stuff:

 

 

After both idols were played at the Final 6 and the vote ended up in a dead-lock, it apparently took the players over 30 minutes to come to a decision on whether to eliminate Keith or Kimmi.

 

As far as the unprecedented move itself, Jeff Probst handled the entire situation himself and did not have to stop the proceedings and discuss what to do with fellow producers.

 

So it looked like it took a LOT of convincing by Wentworth to make Keith stay...

 

 

At the final tribal council, all the jury questions were directed towards either Jeremy or Spencer. Nobody had anything to say to Tasha. The jury were pressured to come up with things to ask her.

 

Abi-Maria referred to Spencer as a sociopath and told him that he had played the game like Chaos Kass.

 

So bully was ok for primetime TV, but I guess sociopath wasn't...

 

 

After each player was voted out this season, Jeff wanted that person to write a letter reflecting on their second chance. They were told to think about it as potentially a letter to the final five. It is believed that they were either going to be used in the game as letters for the final five or posted online as part of CBS social media.

 

However, despite the pre-jury members having written their letters, the jury members refused to do it. The idea was therefore abandoned.

 

 

It would have been interesting to read the letters, but I don't blame the jurors for refusing to do it. That was cheesy.

[LadyChatts]

I wonder why the jurors refused to do it.  I get it, and they totally milked this second chance thing to the point where the well had run beyond dry.  But I'm wondering why the jurors refused.  That might have been cool if they used it as part of a challenge.

 

Also, why do TPTB care if the jurors question Tasha or not? 

[LanceM]

Abi-Maria referred to Spencer as a sociopath and told him that he had played the game like Chaos Kass.

 

 

That must have been written in her notes.

 

So I just looked at the player of the season poll results on Inside Survivor and Kelley ran away with it amassing 55% of the votes (1,165 total) blowing away second place Kimmi and 3rd place Jeremy, each with close to 10% of the votes.

Edited December 23, 2015 by LanceM

[ProfCrash]

I think that they want there to be some suspense. If Tasha gets no questions then the suspense is diminished. The problem is that TPTB forget that there are interviews after each boot and pretty much everyone blew Tasha off. It does explain why Tasha was so defensive during her post game interviews. She was shunned during FTC and the few questions she got were pretty negative. Her edit was pretty close to hidden and could politely described as a loyal foot shoulder. I think she is well aware that she is not liked by a lot of folks and that she did not do much to improve her reputation with the players or with the audience. Contrast that to the fact that Kass actually got a pretty positive edit and the audience seems to have warmed to her. There is a really awkward interview with Malcolm and Kelley where Tasha is waiting to be interviewed by Malcom and Kelley is in the process of pretty much ignoring Tasha's game play.

 

I think that the Andrew Savage cliques is a real thing. I think that Andrew and Tasha probably were the ones who feel like they were poorly edited and that they got slammed the most in the social media after their game play. Both have pretty actively gone after Kass, Abi, Ciera and, too some extent, Kelley. Abi, Ciera, Kass and Kelley have not exactly been kind to Andrew or Tasha. Kelly Wigglesworth has been kind of caught in the middle but I don't think she really cares or ha participated. Joe is Joe so he sort of skates through and I think Stephen has avoided taking sides.