S02.E09: Running To Stand Still

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

The bad guy plan was really dumb.  They hand out gifts to 100 kids and expect the audience to believe that NOT ONE child immediately opened their present?  What are the chances of that?  50 trillion to one?

 

"A C4 bomb!  So cooool; who needs a PS4 when I can play with a live explosive device!!!  Santa's the bestest ever!!"

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Until Barry sits her down and shares his the deep dark secrets that motivate and shape his life, I'm not going to hold it against her for not wanting to talk about how she feels responsible for getting her father killed.  She spent part of a day going off on her own and then at the end decided she wanted to tell Barry all about it.  Not seeing the hypocrisy, at least not on her side.

 

I see where you're coming from, but the level of magnitudes in the difference between 'secrets' is kind of significant - well, should be, but since Barry pretty much whips the cowl off for everyone else on Flash & Arrow.......

 

Barry's secret is kept to continually try and protect thousands - if not millions - of people with his speed and abilities as the Flash.   Patty's is the reason she became a cop - to get murderous vengeance against a metahuman.  Just a tad bit different, IMO.

[Actionmage]

I mean, Zoom should have no trouble spending a day following The Flash around and figuring out everything about him.  Joe, Iris, Patty, Caitlin and all the rest should pack up and go hide.

 

 

Hell, Jay was able to gather intel for six months! For the whole STAR Labs gang, and possibly Joe. It would be easier than breathing for Zoom.

 

 

 

Speaking of Iris.  Poor Iris.  I'm sure I'll like Wally but can't help but feel like she's about to get bumped even lower on Joe's favorite kid list. 

 

 

Didn't you know? On TV, fathers only love a daughter if they can't get their hands on a son/ surrogate son. Because all men only want to procreate and have legions of sons all over. A daughter is only acceptable if there is no other alternative. [/sarcasm] 

 

In all seriousness though? I'm scared this is going to happen. IA with the poster who pointed out that Iris doesn't get her grandfather's watch, Barry does and is anointed Joe's son. I wondered what Henry would think, but I think he's even worse off than Iris.

 

 

 That said, I am getting sick of the Green Arrow bashing.  It's getting weird.

 

 

Especially as they just had Barry initiate contact with Oliver in order to protect Kendra!  Since it was an Iris/Joe scene, I couldn't really believe Joe would hold a grudge against someone who helped save his daughter and his late partner from Barry just last year.  For all of Oliver's lackey murdering, having Joe get on his high-horse when they have a man imprisoned in The Pipeline for knowing about Barry's identity and Firestorm's identities is a total Pot meet Kettle moment.

 

Speaking of which, I adored irritated Patty telling Capt. Singh that  she didn't know where Joe was. "I'm not his mother." Hee!  Maybe Capt, Singh needs to tell Joe to keep in touch with his partner. Joe seems to rarely listen to women.

[phoenics]

 

Flash is interesting to me.  When Iris told her father about the fact that she had hid the existence of his son from him, being an Arrow viewer I was actually expecting someone to be upset.  I mean, she's known a lot longer than a couple weeks.  I get it, her dad doesn't have a leg to stand on but I was expecting at least a flash of emotion or anger before forgiveness.  Honestly, I'm kind of pissed Flash fans don't have to deal with the same crap as Arrow.  (Misery loves company)  That said, I am getting sick of the Green Arrow bashing.  It's getting weird. 

 

Well, unless she kept it hidden for a year (Barry's secret) or 20+ years (Joe lying about her mother being dead), I don't think either Joe or Barry have the right to come at Iris in any way, shape or form.  She kept this for basically a few weeks - that's it.  Joe lied much longer - more than once.  I would have been angry if they'd dragged Iris for that.  She didn't deserve that.  Plus, she didn't know when she found out about the baby if the baby was actually Joe's.  That was said in the episode with Francine.  So, I'm gonna fanwank  that she had to figure out if the baby was actually Joe's - or the result of an affair.

 

So it's still possible that she only knew the full truth a couple of weeks ago.

Also - I hated that Joe gave Barry the watch - and not Iris.  The writers are failing Joe in this because we are supposed to believe that he loves his daughter, but we never see them in scenes together unless he's done something to her or is lying to her.  All of the convos he should be having with her, he has with Barry.  It's hurting Joe and making it look like he just doesn't care about her as much.

 

Also - I fear it is simply setting things up to pit Wally vs Flash - with Iris on the periphery.

[Richness]

Weather Wizard brought sexy back. Enjoyed most of the episode, except for the Jay punking Catilin scenes. Cisko was a bit mean even if his attitude toward a new relationship forming is understandable. Patty didn't annoy since she didn't crank the adorkable routine up to ten thousand, but I really don't care about her or her backstory. Girl has got some gun control issues. Glad to see Iris finally tell Joe about Wally, as I feared they hadn't learned their lesson about keeping secrets yet. So you can imagine my surprise that Berry didn't reveal himself to Patty to talk her down. All the Christmas hamming by Cold and the Trickster was way overdone though.

 

The magnetic bomb attracter officially broke my ability to suspend so much disbelief. Speaking of belief suspension, why were they so surprised the Weather Wizard could fly by tornadic winds when Barry just demonstrated the ability to tornado wave his arms so he and Patty could fly to safety? I hope I can get it repaired by next year.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Some good points re: the GA bashing.  It really does come off as weird, after a fashion.

 

if Joe wants to make catty comments, ok, but at least have Barry say something like "cmon Joe, Oliver's not that bad a guy (anymore)".  By not saying anything, it makes Barry look like he is in complete agreement with Joe's views, which we know he isn't.

[Lady Calypso]

Well, I liked the episode, especially after the mess that was last week. I think the one thing I was thankful for was Westallen scenes. We have barely gotten any, so I'll take what I can get. Iris got a little more of a voice this time. It may not be great, but it's a start. And I love how Barry got to be there to listen to Iris (and Iris learned from Barry's mistakes!) and he got to be there only as support for when Iris told Joe. So that made me happy. More Iris was great to see, and I would love more family scenes. I do think Wally could be jealous of Barry, as he's the surrogate son while Wally's the bio son, but we'll see how they approach it. Wally looks so adorable and so innocent, that part of me wants to hold him and send him on his way to protect him. 

 

I really liked the villain arc; I was entertained, at least, and Cold's really coming in as an anti-hero. They had some funny lines and they all look like they are having fun.

 

Jay/Caitlin? Still so very awkward, especially with the Cisco cheerleading.

 

I do like Patty, and I was ok with her small arc, but only because I realize she probably won't be around for much longer, especially with Barry still keeping secrets.

[AudienceofOne]

Didn't you know? On TV, fathers only love a daughter if they can't get their hands on a son/ surrogate son. Because all men only want to procreate and have legions of sons all over. A daughter is only acceptable if there is no other alternative. [/sarcasm]

 

 

Joe is a lovable paternalistic ass most of the time so this is consistent. Of course he wanted a son! And Iris knows it, which is kind of gut wrenching. Poor woman.

"I promised when I had a son..." Not a child. A SON. I just started laughing. So very Joe.

 

As for this episode, I enjoyed it a lot after last week's fustercluck. I can only hope Arrow is as good and that we can forget last week ever happened.

[wingster55]

I would like a bit of a shift in the balance of Joe's scenes with Iris instead of Barry and Joe...but the latter is the writers favorite relationship...to them it's the heart and soul of the show. I can get behind that because they DO have great chemistry. 

 

 

if Joe wants to make catty comments, ok, but at least have Barry say something like "cmon Joe, Oliver's not that bad a guy (anymore)".  By not saying anything, it makes Barry look like he is in complete agreement with Joe's views, which we know he isn't.

Barry wasn't there tonight...and Joe doesn't make them that often. And this was really the only "catty" one.

And so what? Is everyone required to like Oliver?

[thuganomics85]

The return of The Trickster?!  Early Christmas present!  Easily one of my favorite villains on this show.  Mark Hamill is such a awesome ball of ham in this role (and, I swear, I think he is purposely sounding like his version of The Joker during certain lines.)  I could not stop giggling during the scene with all the rogues, because it was like Hamill, Wentworth Miller, and Liam McIntyre, were all in a contest to see who out-ham the other.  Which, nice attempts on the latter twos' parts, but I don't think anyone can overact like Mark Hamill can!

 

Still, Snart gets extra points for hilariously breaking into the West house, and stealing their coco, all while give Barry the blue steel.  Classic Snart.  I'm not surprised he didn't go through with the team-up, since he is being set-up to be more of an anti-hero in the spin-off, but I was kind of bummed we didn't get more of it, because I was loving his reactions to all of Jesse/Trickster's antics.  You could tell he was pretty much thinking "And I thought Firestorm was nuts" during those brief moments.

 

Of course, they had to bring back the whole "Mark killed Patty's dad" thing and go into "Taking it personally!" territory, but at least it meant she toned down the adorkableness and played it more straight here.  Shantel VanSanten played it better here, compared to the normal quirky stuff.  Of course, Patty still goes off half-cocked and without a partner, almost getting herself killed.  Not exactly the best police work right there, Patty.  Good thing that apparently the only competent detectives on this show seem to be Joe and... well, only Joe.

 

On one hand, the Barry/Joe stuff was well done, and Grant Gustin and Jesse L. Martin continue to shine together.  On the other hand, seeing Joe giving Barry the watch continues to highlight how Joe really seems to be distant to Iris.  And it really does come off like it some kind of "He's a guy, so we have to do guy stuff like this.  I can't be passing down my watch to a girl!" thing.  And I suspect it will only get worse for Iris.

 

Why?  Because Wally is here!  Didn't really have time to form an impression on the actor, but I'm glad he's finally arrived. Mainly because I'm hoping this means 

Linda Park isn't done, since they're love interests in the comics.

 

I loved Cisco trying to come up with some kind of scientific explanation over Mark's new skills, only for Harry to be all "No.  He can fly" about it.  Between that, the Vito remark to the Godfather question, and him all "Your presents, give them to me" to that poor child, Harry brought some laugh out-loud moments.  So, of course, he's up to no good.  That said, it seems like this time it's because he's being forced by Zoom.  Sounds like Zoom wants Barry to get faster, so he can get even more powers to steal!

 

Caitlin and Jay bore me.  Maybe it was mean of him, but I was totally with Cisco in all of those scenes.

 

Fun episode.

[Artsda]

I laughed at Cold making a 'Prison Break'. Love always seeing him. 

 

Loved Joe giving Barry the watch, because he's his son and it means more to Barry now too because Joe gave it knowing  he had a bio son.

[themadman]

Mark Hamill had it easy. He was essentially playing The Joker that he's voiced for many years on the Batman animated series. 

Where on earth did Patty get that gun from? And why couldn't Flash phase through it?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Barry wasn't there tonight

 

D'oh!, that's my bad. You're right, it was the Joe/iris CC scene.   (for some reason, I had it as a Barry/Joe scene in my mind when I wrote it originally) 

[zannej]

Some good points re: the GA bashing.  It really does come off as weird, after a fashion.

 

if Joe wants to make catty comments, ok, but at least have Barry say something like "cmon Joe, Oliver's not that bad a guy (anymore)".  By not saying anything, it makes Barry look like he is in complete agreement with Joe's views, which we know he isn't.

I would agree if Barry had actually been there when Joe made the remark. LOL. Joe just still doesn't fully trust GA, and I can understand why. The guy had been killing people and he doesn't seem to have a problem with torturing people. While some cops would consider Ollie a "public service" serial killer, others still see that as just being a criminal.

 

Where on earth did Patty get that gun from? And why couldn't Flash phase through it?

I figured that Barry could have at least figured out how to vibrate fast enough to break the tether. Of course, I think he also could have caught up with Marden much faster.

 

I liked Hamill as the Trickster-- and Cold's look when he realized he was going to have to put up with him when they were going to break him out of prison. When I saw the promos, I figured Cold was probably there to warn Barry rather than harm him.

 

I had thought the beginning sequence with Zoom might have been a nightmare that Wells was having. He seems to have recovered well from his gunshot wound. I still was confused about him trying to outrun Zoom and Zoom seeming to run ahead of him only to enter the room after. I'm guessing that Zoom was playing with him a bit to terrorize him.

 

Wells did look quite distressed when people asked him if he was ok. The "Why wouldn't I be" was not convincing, and I didn't think the team bought it, but I think they realized that he wasn't going to talk about it. I didn't get Jay pretending to not know things. That didn't make sense, although I started to like Jay a little more. He did better in his scenes with Wells, but the whole Jay/Caitlin thing is not working for me. There is no chemistry. I have to say, I was as annoyed by it as Cisco was.

 

Poor Wells when he saw the type of teddy bear he got for his daughter.

 

Candice did a fantastic job in this one. I saw that some people thought she was going to say she loved Barry, but I had figured it would be about Wally. I loved the moment when she and Barry looked out the window and were just holding on to each other and it was great to see Barry being supportive of Iris. Speaking of which, I did like that Cold mentioned Iris' article and complimented it. I also liked Iris not taking crap from him about the bad "rough childhood".

 

I'm a bit divided on the thing with Joe and the watch. On one hand, there is this whole societal push to have male heirs because they carry the family name and there are many double standards when it comes to sons and daughters.  In some ways, there may be more expectations for boys (or at least there used to be) to be breadwinners and be strong/tough. But boys also tend to get away with some things-- the whole "boys will be boys" thing was used to excuse some of the most abhorrent behavior (but that is a topic for the lightning rod thread). I did feel sad for Iris in a way, but on the other hand, I don't think she wanted the old men's watch that Joe said was barely working. I also think that it was Joe's way of making sure Barry knew he wouldn't be forgotten or replaced.

 

I admit that if this wasn't a fictional world where they celebrate Flash day instead of trying to arrest him, I would not be able to accept the whole bomb thing. Some child would have opened it and thrown it. Unless it would ONLY go off with a remote detonator, there would have been at least one explosion. Although, some bombs can be duds... True story: Some friends of mine live on Guam and when they were children, they had this giant metal thing they used to play on. They would jump on it, pretend it was a horse, and just use it as a playground ride for years. One day their uncle came out to find them and freaked the hell out. They were jumping on a bomb from WWII.

 

I admit that I couldn't bring myself to care about Patty's drama. The whole "I killed him" thing made me roll my eyes. And really, she must be a moron go not have figured out that Barry is the Flash by now. When Flash said "hold me" and her response was "I'm seeing someone." I also rolled my eyes. If she had half a brain she would have realized that he was going to do something or figured that he just wanted one last hug before death or something.

 

Marden beating up the Flash with snowballs seemed a little lame. He could have had a much more vicious hailstorm and made it worse, but I guess they didn't want to make it too violent. I couldn't figure out if the Trickster was just being silly at the end or if he really was moved.

 

The mistletoe scene was cringeworthy for me, but it was nice when Wally showed up. I wonder if Patty realized that the "Harry" Barry was mentioning was Harrison Wells. I wonder how that would have gone over if he'd actually shown up at the party. I wish we'd found out exactly what Joe told Patty about that situation.

 

I think team Flash made a mistake by taking down the security cameras that Eobard installed-- speaking of which, did anyone else find it odd that Eobard put cameras in just about everywhere but didn't have one to monitor the front door of his own house?

 

As soon as Barry said "I forgive you" while looking at Wells, I figured that Wells was going to betray the trust by agreeing to help Zoom. Although, given that Zoom threatened to kill Harrison's "new friends" and his daughter, they might understand. Poor Jesse though. She's been held captive all that time and she finally sees her Daddy and is begging him not to let Zoom take her back-- and then Zoom takes her back. The look on Wells' face just said it all. I did notice that Wells said he would help steal the powers, but NOT help him kill Barry. Zoom probably wouldn't need to kill him anyway.

 

I take it there is a hiatus until January now?

[Bats27]

-Zoom's plot feels a bit too similar to RF's from last season, and they'd better not actually go the "Harrison Wells betrays them" route yet again.

-Jay/Caitlin still feels really forced/awkward.

-Jesse L. Martin, Grant Gustin, and Candace Patton tore it up acting-wise in that scene where Barry and Iris told Joe about Wally.

-Patty was also really good this episode (tell her already Barry/Joe, this is getting ridiculous).

-"Every universe has The Godfather." GOOD, because The Godfather is EPIC!!

-I liked Wally so far. Granted he's had like a minute of screentime, but still.

-More delightful Mark Hamill scenery-chewing, also awesome.

-Count me in on the "getting tired of the GA bashing" thing.  Not only is it unnecessarily petty, but it doesn't even line up with Joe/Oliver's more recent interactions.

 

All in all, a pretty good episode.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Bats27

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I would agree if Barry had actually been there when Joe made the remark. LOL. Joe just still doesn't fully trust GA, and I can understand why. The guy had been killing people and he doesn't seem to have a problem with torturing people. While some cops would consider Ollie a "public service" serial killer, others still see that as just being a criminal.

 

I know, still wiping the egg off my face for somehow imagining that I remembered that as a J/B scene instead of a J/I one, when I wrote that.  :)   lol

[netlyon2]

^^^ Your mistake makes sense to me. After all, there's only a 1-in-5 chance that a "Joe talks to his kid" scene actually includes Iris.

[Velocity23]

So while Joe loves to takes shot at the crazy vigilante in Star City. (Does he even know Green Arrow is Oliver?), did the show ever admit to Barry killing a few metas this season?

[cambridgeguy]

 

Patty came prepared. That gun seemed to specially designed to stop the Flash. I wonder where it came from.

Wasn't that the same gun they used on Atom Smasher?  Convenient that Patty was the ONLY cop who bothered to show up to a public fight though.

 

It's nice to see that the new security system at Star Labs included removing all of the surveillance cameras when they took out the locks.

[jmonique]

If they weren't planning on killing Patty, I don't understand why she gets to feel more pain over a death that occurred ages ago than we've been able to see Iris experience over Eddie.

 

I could go on and on about this, but Patty Sue just isn't interesting enough to warrant a rant longer than that.

Edited December 9, 2015 by jmonique

[Primetimer]

The Weather Wizard's back for Christmas in Central City too, but he's not as much crazy fun.

Read the story

[quarks]

Well, unless she kept it hidden for a year (Barry's secret) or 20+ years (Joe lying about her mother being dead), I don't think either Joe or Barry have the right to come at Iris in any way, shape or form.  She kept this for basically a few weeks - that's it.  Joe lied much longer - more than once.  I would have been angry if they'd dragged Iris for that.  She didn't deserve that.  Plus, she didn't know when she found out about the baby if the baby was actually Joe's.  That was said in the episode with Francine.  So, I'm gonna fanwank  that she had to figure out if the baby was actually Joe's - or the result of an affair.

So it's still possible that she only knew the full truth a couple of weeks ago.

 

I didn't/don't want Iris dragged over the coals for this either, but I think you're contradicting yourself here, forcing yourself, by your own words, having to fanwank. Iris found out the truth back in October, so this hasn't been "a few weeks" - it's been over a month, especially since this episode apparently took place shortly before Christmas. Closer to two months. And the fact that Iris was so (rightfully) furious about Barry last year is the problem here: you can't get angry at your father/boyfriend/friend for keeping a major secret from you and then months later, keep a major secret from your father without expecting some accusation of hypocrisy/other negative reaction down the line.

 

And before this disintegrates into a conversation about how Iris gets treated differently than other characters, fans made this identical point about Thea last year after Thea blew up at Moira and Oliver because they lied to her, to the point where Moira and Oliver lost the family fortune for that lie - and then turned around and didn't tell Oliver that a) Malcolm was alive, b) she was living with him, c) Malcolm was training her.  Thea was heavily criticized - by fans - for hypocrisy, but not criticised that much on the show.  Barry came in for a lot of flack from fans and in the show last year when he tried to argue that Iris not admitting that she had feelings was equivalent to his lying to her about the Flash.

 

Having said all that, I'm just as glad Iris didn't get a lot of blowback within the show over this, mostly because, from my perspective, the main person at fault here isn't Iris, but Francine, who had years to tell Iris and Joe about this, and didn't bother. I also don't blame Iris for deciding that she was better off and emotionally healthier not having her mother in her life, even if she eventually decided that - for her own emotional wellbeing - she had to tell Joe the truth.

 

 

And so what? Is everyone required to like Oliver?

 

No one's required to like Oliver at all. I appreciated the fact that, last season, Flash remembered that Oliver started out as a serial killer and had Joe and Wells bring that point up to Barry.

 

The problem is that Flash - not just Joe - has been taking potshots at Oliver every couple of episodes now. And it's not that Oliver doesn't deserve the criticism, because yes, he absolutely does, but that, especially since last season's finale, these pot shots are given without calling out Barry on his crap, or acknowledging that in at least one case, done far worse. Barry's been keeping people locked up without due process simply because they're metahumans - and they got out anyway. Barry created a black hole that almost killed thousands, if not millions of people, and did kill two characters on the show. Barry killed a few metahumans this season. And Oliver, meanwhile, has been regularly risking his life despite not having superpowers.

 

Result: Barry gets a Flash day, a coffee, a Xmas ornament, and Joe (and others) repeatedly assuring Barry that he's an awesome guy.  Oliver, despite saying "Hey, a new hood means I'm now a symbol of hope for the city!" and despite saving all of Star City in the season premiere by blowing up that train, gets nothing but flack from The Flash - even though we're supposed to fanwank that no one in Star City realizes that the Arrow and the Green Arrow are the same person, so presumably Star City should be showing the same gratitude towards Oliver, and even though characters from The Flash just approached Oliver for help last week. I can live with it as an in show joke, but I preferred Vixen's approach of calling out both Barry and Oliver.

Edited December 9, 2015 by quarks

[KirkB]

I was wrong about the gun. It was the one they used on Atom Smasher. But Cisco made it, right? And as I recall it didn't even work on AS, but did he give it to the metahuman task force anyway? If not, how did Patty get it? 

 

I don't think people on the Flash making jokes or snide comments about the Green Arrow has to be anything mean. They're friends with the guy and most of these people like a good joke. 

 

Zoom wanting Barry to get faster so he has more speed energy to eat when he finally goes to kill him makes sense. But why is he colluding with Wells? If he is SO much faster (and smarter and better) than Barry, not to mention just a touch arrogant, why would he need Wells' help? 

Edited December 9, 2015 by KirkB

[SevenStars]

I didn't/don't want Iris dragged over the coals for this either, but I think you're contradicting yourself here, forcing yourself, by your own words, having to fanwank. Iris found out the truth back in October, so this hasn't been "a few weeks" - it's been over a month, especially since this episode apparently took place shortly before Christmas. Closer to two months. And the fact that Iris was so (rightfully) furious about Barry last year is the problem here: you can't get angry at your father/boyfriend/friend for keeping a major secret from you and then months later, keep a major secret from your father without expecting some accusation of hypocrisy/other negative reaction down the line.

And before this disintegrates into a conversation about how Iris gets treated differently than other characters, fans made this identical point about Thea last year after Thea blew up at Moira and Oliver because they lied to her, to the point where Moira and Oliver lost the family fortune for that lie - and then turned around and didn't tell Oliver that a) Malcolm was alive, b) she was living with him, c) Malcolm was training her. Thea was heavily criticized - by fans - for hypocrisy, but not criticised that much on the show. Barry came in for a lot of flack from fans and in the show last year when he tried to argue that Iris not admitting that she had feelings was equivalent to his lying to her about the Flash.

Having said all that, I'm just as glad Iris didn't get a lot of blowback within the show over this, mostly because, from my perspective, the main person at fault here isn't Iris, but Francine, who had years to tell Iris and Joe about this, and didn't bother. I also don't blame for Iris deciding that she was better off and emotionally healthier not having her mother in her life, even if she eventually decided that - for her own emotional wellbeing - she had to tell Joe the truth.

No one's required to like Oliver at all. I appreciated the fact that, last season, Flash remembered that Oliver started out as a serial killer and had Joe and Wells bring that point up to Barry.

The problem is that Flash - not just Joe - has been taking potshots at Oliver every couple of episodes now. And it's not that Oliver doesn't deserve the criticism, because yes, he absolutely does, but that, especially since last season's finale, these pot shots are given without calling out Barry on his crap, or acknowledging that in at least one case, done far worse. Barry's been keeping people locked up without due process simply because they're metahumans - and they got out anyway. Barry created a black hole that almost killed thousands, if not millions of people, and did kill two characters on the show. Barry killed a few metahumans this season. And Oliver, meanwhile, has been regularly risking his life despite not having superpowers.

Result: Barry gets a Flash day, a coffee, a Xmas ornament, and Joe (and others) repeatedly assuring Barry that he's an awesome guy. Oliver, despite saying "Hey, a new hood means I'm now a symbol of hope for the city!" and despite saving all of Star City in the season premiere by blowing up that train, gets nothing but flack from The Flash - even though we're supposed to fanwank that no one in Star City realizes that the Arrow and the Green Arrow are the same person, so presumably Star City should be showing the same gratitude towards Oliver, and even though characters from The Flash just approached Oliver for help last week. I can live with it as an in show joke, but I preferred Vixen's approach of calling out both Barry and Oliver.

I kind agree with you about Iris and I also hate that the writers gave us no real motivation as to why Iris was keeping Wally a secret. But that's the just writers not really caring about giving Iris screen time that have nothing to do with Joe or Barry.

As for the whole taking potshots at Oliver/GA but not Barry, why would they? Unlike Oliver, they love Barry. They are usually part of the decision making when it comes to these things and they believe that him killing metahumans is usually his last resort. They have also seen how Barry take guilty heavily on his shoulders. So they wouldn't want to add to it.

They don't know all these things about Oliver. They are like me, their knowledge of Oliver comes from what people say about him and a lot of those things don't sound good. I guess that's why I totally enjoyed Joe's potshots.

[phoenics]

I didn't/don't want Iris dragged over the coals for this either, but I think you're contradicting yourself here, forcing yourself, by your own words, having to fanwank. Iris found out the truth back in October, so this hasn't been "a few weeks" - it's been over a month, especially since this episode apparently took place shortly before Christmas.

What I said was that I fan wanked that Iris had to track things down to be certain that the boy Francine had was in fact, Joe's son. Iris already knew that was at least her half brother - what she did NOT know was whether or not it was Joe's son. Francine could have had an affair. Iris asked Francine if the boy was Joe's, and then immediately said "Wait - I don't want to know." She did not know his name at that point.

In this episode - she DID know his name, which means she had to have done more investigative work to find that out AND to find out that he was, in fact, Joe's son.

So the news she found out with Francine earlier in the season wasn't ALL of the information. And most of it at the time she found out was relevant to HER not Joe, until she had proof that it was Joe's son as well as her brother.

Closer to two months. And the fact that Iris was so (rightfully) furious about Barry last year is the problem here: you can't get angry at your father/boyfriend/friend for keeping a major secret from you and then months later, keep a major secret from your father without expecting some accusation of hypocrisy/other negative reaction down the line.

Again - 20 years. A few weeks [proved above that it was likely a few weeks]. So, no - if Joe came at Iris for that, HE would be the one looking like a hypocrite, not Iris. Any residual anger over that would simply be a bad look for Joe. It's not Iris' fault - it's HIS. He's now admitted that HE should have not abandoned Francine and tried harder and that he lied to protect HIMSELF and not Iris.

Meanwhile, Iris proved that she was doing this to really protect Joe - and after a few weeks it hollowed her out and she couldn't keep doing it. Contrast that with Joe last season and the past 20 years.

No contest.

And before this disintegrates into a conversation about how Iris gets treated differently than other characters, fans made this identical point about Thea last year after Thea blew up at Moira and Oliver because they lied to her, to the point where Moira and Oliver lost the family fortune for that lie - and then turned around and didn't tell Oliver that a) Malcolm was alive, b) she was living with him, c) Malcolm was training her.  Thea was heavily criticized - by fans - for hypocrisy, but not criticised that much on the show.  Barry came in for a lot of flack from fans and in the show last year when he tried to argue that Iris not admitting that she had feelings was equivalent to his lying to her about the Flash.

Again - as I proved up above - you cannot actually say that Iris has known for 2 months. You can say that she knew Francine had a son, but not whether that son was Joe's. Because the show didn't have Iris on enough to know what she knew when, you cannot say that she knew it was Joe's. But because of her scene with Francine, we know that at the time she knew it was a possibility but not for sure. Back then she didn't know his name was Wally. Which means she clearly learned more since the convo with francine, where she presumably would have found proof that Wally was also Joe's son.

And that could have happened over the last few weeks.

It's simply not the same as Thea's lie... where she would lie directly to Ollie's face. Also, she didn't come clean to Ollie. Iris herself came clean to Barry and then got the support she needed to come clean to Joe.

I'm glad the show didn't have her hold it and then have Joe find out and blast her. I couldn't take that kind of hypocrisy from him given how forgiving Iris was for him keeping a TWENTY year lie.

Having said all that, I'm just as glad Iris didn't get a lot of blowback within the show over this, mostly because, from my perspective, the main person at fault here isn't Iris, but Francine, who had years to tell Iris and Joe about this, and didn't bother. I also don't blame for Iris deciding that she was better off and emotionally healthier not having her mother in her life, even if she eventually decided that - for her own emotional wellbeing - she had to tell Joe the truth.

I agree with this - but I also blame Joe. It bothered me that he basically abandoned his wife like that. And I was glad to hear the character admit it - he abandoned his wife because it was easier. He disregarded his vows because it was easier. And now he's paying a price. Keeping a secret like that for 20 years from Iris was wrong - and now we know he kept it for selfish reasons on his part. Worse, we also know that he gave up on his wife too - she needed help - not judgment. I understand he wanted to protect Iris, but look at all of the harm he's caused. But I can resolve that anger since he ended up losing a son in the deal due to his own actions.

 

The problem is that Flash - not just Joe - has been taking potshots at Oliver every couple of episodes now. And it's not that Oliver doesn't deserve the criticism, because yes, he absolutely does, but that, especially since last season's finale, these pot shots are given without calling out Barry on his crap, or acknowledging that in at least one case, done far worse. Barry's been keeping people locked up without due process simply because they're metahumans - and they got out anyway. Barry created a black hole that almost killed thousands, if not millions of people, and did kill two characters on the show. Barry killed a few metahumans this season. And Oliver, meanwhile, has been regularly risking his life despite not having superpowers.

Yeah - I was bothered by the "you'll get a coffee named after you when you save the city" quip too because Barry didn't save CC. Eddie and Ronnie did and both died for it. Just a poorly scripted scene for "laughs" that fell flat because of all of the man pain on The Flash over that incident.

Result: Barry gets a Flash day, a coffee, a Xmas ornament, and Joe (and others) repeatedly assuring Barry that he's an awesome guy.  Oliver, despite saying "Hey, a new hood means I'm now a symbol of hope for the city!" and despite saving all of Star City in the season premiere by blowing up that train, gets nothing but flack from The Flash - even though we're supposed to fanwank that no one in Star City realizes that the Arrow and the Green Arrow are the same person, so presumably Star City should be showing the same gratitude towards Oliver, and even though characters from The Flash just approached Oliver for help last week. I can live with it as an in show joke, but I preferred Vixen's approach of calling out both Barry and Oliver.

I couldn't agree more.

I wonder if the writers think we don't realize that Flash basically killed people this season?

[benteen]

 

The problem is that Flash - not just Joe - has been taking potshots at Oliver every couple of episodes now. And it's not that Oliver doesn't deserve the criticism, because yes, he absolutely does, but that, especially since last season's finale, these pot shots are given without calling out Barry on his crap, or acknowledging that in at least one case, done far worse. Barry's been keeping people locked up without due process simply because they're metahumans - and they got out anyway. Barry created a black hole that almost killed thousands, if not millions of people, and did kill two characters on the show. Barry killed a few metahumans this season. And Oliver, meanwhile, has been regularly risking his life despite not having superpowers.

 

This.  Flash Day was a huge joke because the people of Central City didn't realize that it was Barry's horrific disregard for them that nearly destroyed them and the whole planet.

[SevenStars]

What I said was that I fan wanked that Iris had to track things down to be certain that the boy Francine had was in fact, Joe's son. Iris already knew that was at least her half brother - what she did NOT know was whether or not it was Joe's son. Francine could have had an affair. Iris asked Francine if the boy was Joe's, and then immediately said "Wait - I don't want to know." She did not know his name at that point.

In this episode - she DID know his name, which means she had to have done more investigative work to find that out AND to find out that he was, in fact, Joe's son.

So the news she found out with Francine earlier in the season wasn't ALL of the information. And most of it at the time she found out was relevant to HER not Joe, until she had proof that it was Joe's son as well as her brother.

Again - 20 years. A few weeks [proved above that it was likely a few weeks]. So, no - if Joe came at Iris for that, HE would be the one looking like a hypocrite, not Iris. Any residual anger over that would simply be a bad look for Joe. It's not Iris' fault - it's HIS. He's now admitted that HE should have not abandoned Francine and tried harder and that he lied to protect HIMSELF and not Iris.

Meanwhile, Iris proved that she was doing this to really protect Joe - and after a few weeks it hollowed her out and she couldn't keep doing it. Contrast that with Joe last season and the past 20 years.

No contest.

Again - as I proved up above - you cannot actually say that Iris has known for 2 months. You can say that she knew Francine had a son, but not whether that son was Joe's. Because the show didn't have Iris on enough to know what she knew when, you cannot say that she knew it was Joe's. But because of her scene with Francine, we know that at the time she knew it was a possibility but not for sure. Back then she didn't know his name was Wally. Which means she clearly learned more since the convo with francine, where she presumably would have found proof that Wally was also Joe's son.

And that could have happened over the last few weeks.

It's simply not the same as Thea's lie... where she would lie directly to Ollie's face. Also, she didn't come clean to Ollie. Iris herself came clean to Barry and then got the support she needed to come clean to Joe.

I'm glad the show didn't have her hold it and then have Joe find out and blast her. I couldn't take that kind of hypocrisy from him given how forgiving Iris was for him keeping a TWENTY year lie.

I agree with this - but I also blame Joe. It bothered me that he basically abandoned his wife like that. And I was glad to hear the character admit it - he abandoned his wife because it was easier. He disregarded his vows because it was easier. And now he's paying a price. Keeping a secret like that for 20 years from Iris was wrong - and now we know he kept it for selfish reasons on his part. Worse, we also know that he gave up on his wife too - she needed help - not judgment. I understand he wanted to protect Iris, but look at all of the harm he's caused. But I can resolve that anger since he ended up losing a son in the deal due to his own actions.

Yeah - I was bothered by the "you'll get a coffee named after you when you save the city" quip too because Barry didn't save CC. Eddie and Ronnie did and both died for it. Just a poorly scripted scene for "laughs" that fell flat because of all of the man pain on The Flash over that incident.

I couldn't agree more.

I wonder if the writers think we don't realize that Flash basically killed people this season?

You make really great points and I totally agree with you.

I think the lack of scenes showing Iris investigating and looking for Wally, made me stupidly think she had all the information and was just keeping it from Joe until his talk about having a son made her feel guilty. But you're right, Iris knowing Wally's name and without a doubt he was Joe's son means that she did her research.

This makes me hate it more that the writers didn't show us Iris doing this investigation.

[CabotCove]

Uneventful episode for a winter finale. 

 

Something good finally came out of the contrived and badly written West drama,  liked that Wally West intro, he's cute. The actor shows potential too.

Yet again, another speedster villain is wasted on a sketchy Harrison Wells, de javu all over again. It takes away from Enter Zoom, which I felt was the best episode of the season so far. Can't say I will be itching to see the show come back from its break. 

 

2. Aww, Central City doesn't just have little Flash action figures and little Flash coffees, it has little Flash Xmas ornaments. With that said, what? Are we really supposed to be forgetting that Barry put the city in danger in the first place?  

 

3. Speaking of the Xmas ornaments, I get that putting down Green Arrow is kinda a thing for this show,

 

I disagree with blaming Barry for everything that happened that night, Barry was aware of the risks yes, but he made sure to be back in time. Then some things beyond his control happened, like Eddie killing himself, RF tricking him.  And besides he has done so much for Central City to be crucified for one mistake, he is cleaning the mess  up and still involved in day to day crime-fighting. I dont know why Arrow doesn't celebrate the Green Arrow as Flash does for its hero, but thats not on the Flash writers but Arrow's.

 

Maybe its  a creative choice to me, to set the two heroes apart, not that one is a better hero than the other. They are different heroes in different cities, Barry just got luckier to be accepted as he was.  I think, eventually Green Arrow will be accepted and get his own goodies too.  

Edited December 9, 2015 by WildcardC

[Chicago Redshirt]

I kind agree with you about Iris and I also hate that the writers gave us no real motivation as to why Iris was keeping Wally a secret. But that's the just writers not really caring about giving Iris screen time that have nothing to do with Joe or Barry.

 

I think that the motivation given in Iris's scene with Francine and repeated in this episode -- that she thinks that it would devastate Joe to know that he had a son that she had kept secret all these years -- is plausible, if not necessarily reasonable or fair.

 

It would definitely shake your average person up to know that your wife left you while pregnant and never told you even anything about it, what 20 years ago.

 

On another front, prior to this episode, was there any indication that Cold had met Iris or had any idea who she was, such that he could recognize her by sight? 

[CabotCove]

Some good points re: the GA bashing.  It really does come off as weird, after a fashion.

 

       What did Joe say, I must have missed this part. 

 

The problem is that Flash - not just Joe - has been taking potshots at Oliver every couple of episodes now. And it's not that Oliver doesn't deserve the criticism, because yes, he absolutely does, but that, especially since last season's finale, these pot shots are given without calling out Barry on his crap, or acknowledging that in at least one case, done far worse. Barry's been keeping people locked up without due process simply because they're metahumans - and they got out anyway. Barry created a black hole that almost killed thousands, if not millions of people, and did kill two characters on the show. Barry killed a few metahumans this season. And Oliver, meanwhile, has been regularly risking his life despite not having superpowers.

 

For what its  worth this is a show that likes to pretend that the real Reverse Flash was Harrison Wells and not  Eobard Thawne last season. Oliver is not the only one getting crapped over for plot reasons, I just think this"GA bashing" is being blown out of proportion.  The Flash acknowledges GA has a bad image but for the most part, they respect and treat him well whenever he comes over to The Flash. 

 

This.  Flash Day was a huge joke because the people of Central City didn't realize that it was Barry's horrific disregard for them that nearly destroyed them and the whole planet.

 

It wasn't a joke, he earned it (Flash Day) after everything he had done to save Central City in the previous year. It was a sincere thank you from CC residents for all his help in saving lives and keeping the city safe.  One accidental mistake does not erase that.

Edited December 9, 2015 by WildcardC

[FurryFury]

The opening was all kinds of WTF, but funny.

 

Overall, eh... Too little Cold, I expected a bit more. But some nice non-shippy Iris/Barry scenes, that's a plus, I guess (I hate their romance but I want to like their friendship).

Wally didn't make an impression.Also don't care about Joe's manpain.

 

Trickster was extraneous, but always fun. I wonder if I'll be remembering Mark Hamill in this when I'll (hopefully) seen him in TFA next week.

 

I wanted Patty to shoot Weather Wizard. While admittedly hot, this dude seems to be one of the evilest bastards of the show.

 

Predicted Harrison West to be blackmailed by Zoom ages ago, so I was waiting for this. Still like the character.

 

Also still don't hate Caitlin and Jay. Wonder if it stems from my hate for Robbie Amell or my like for Teddy Sears. But I do understand they're handling this romance totally wrong.

[wingster55]

The problem is that Flash - not just Joe - has been taking potshots at Oliver every couple of episodes now. And it's not that Oliver doesn't deserve the criticism, because yes, he absolutely does, but that, especially since last season's finale, these pot shots are given without calling out Barry on his crap, or acknowledging that in at least one case, done far worse. Barry's been keeping people locked up without due process simply because they're metahumans - and they got out anyway. Barry created a black hole that almost killed thousands, if not millions of people, and did kill two characters on the show. Barry killed a few metahumans this season. And Oliver, meanwhile, has been regularly risking his life despite not having superpowers.

 

Show me where these "potshots" have occurred. Barry beats himself up for the mistakes he made. 

I go back and forth on the prison in Star Labs...it seems unnecessary this season...but not last year (and it was necessary for peek-a-boo)

[rogueprinzess]

 

 

Uneventful episode for a winter finale.

Something good finally came out of the contrived and badly written West drama,  liked that Wally West intro, he's cute. The actor shows potential too.

Yet again, another speedster villain is wasted on a sketchy Harrison Wells, de javu all over again. It takes away from Enter Zoom, which I felt was the best episode of the season so far. Can't say I will be itching to see the show come back from its break.

 

ICAM. For a mid season finale, this episode was blah at best. It's like the show just can't be bothered ATM because LoT is starting and setting the stage for that is most important. The West family drama would have been worth it if the show had, you know, actually taken time to delve into it instead of throwaway scenes with Francine and off-screen references to interactions/conversations and emotions. I have a sneaking suspicion that at least an hour or more of West Family content never made it out of the editing room. Don't get me started on Zoom/Wells. This show is LITERALLY regurgitating the story arc from last season. Like, literally. [insert new villain name here] and paste the rest last season's plot. Done! Who knew writing a show was so easy?

 

 

On another front, prior to this episode, was there any indication that Cold had met Iris or had any idea who she was, such that he could recognize her by sight?

 

I can believe that with little else to do, Cold would read up about the Flash while in jail, and Iris writes a lot of articles about him. Also, last season we saw that Cold did his research on the Flash and likely didn't stop doing that once he knew the Flash's identity. I'm just glad someone cared enough to know who Iris is outside of Team Flash.

Edited December 9, 2015 by rogueprinzess

[roomtorome]

JLM is just so good and, for me, the heart of the show. I had no idea he was this sort of performer. Glad I found out.

I like this show and it's cast and characters so much more than Arrow which I can barely watch at this point in large part because of the lead. He is just so dull. No charisma that I can glean. And none of the other characters make me care about them as I do with the core group on The Flash.

[tennisgurl]

There are few images I needed more than Captain Cold sitting in Barrys house with a big reindeer cup of hot chocolate. I didn't know I needed that, but I really did. I like that they are continuing his seeming inevitable turn to...maybe not good, but goodish. I`m looking forward to seeing more of him in the spin-off, but I hope he can stop by The Flash from time to time. I love his interactions with Barry.  

 

Great to see Iris get more to do, and her having some good scenes with Barry. See, writers. You can and should give them scenes together, they're great!

 

Patty had some stuff to do besides be Barrys perfect girlfriend, even if it was pretty standard "you killed my father, prepare to die" stuff. Good for her, having a decent subplot. 

 

Ugggg. I like Jay, and I like Caitlin, but them together does nothing for me. I am Cisco, standing bored in the background telling them to just get on with it. 

[TwistedandBored]

I was really bored by this mid-season finale.

I like seeing Wally West but I didn't care for Patty and her stupid storyline. I know she is there to get Barry out of puberty stage but do we have to spend soo much time with her?  And, I didn't care for the villains they choose. I wanted some new villains and more of Zoom. 

[CabotCove]

This show is LITERALLY regurgitating the story arc from last season. Like, literally. [insert new villain name here] and paste the rest last season's plot. Done! Who knew writing a show was so easy?

 

Yeah it felt so dejavu, so scared of a sophomore slump for this show now, they cant be running out of ideas so soon. 

 

Just finished watching Arrow winter finale, it felt better than The Flash's, how the tables has turned this season. 

Edited December 10, 2015 by WildcardC

[NorthstarATL]

Wally West was actually the first "Flash" character I read as a kid, because he was a member of the Teen Titans. While the brother of Iris looks/feels nothing like that guy, it's cool that they're already prepping for when Grant negotiates his contract. Joe's scenes with Barry were terrific, though, and as an adoptee, it was touching that for all intents and purposes Barry is Joe's son. (Which is why I was shouting at the TV "Because you didn't know him!" at Joe when he thought he should have some sort of empathic bond with Wally like he did with Iris.)

  None of the romances worked for me except when Weather Wizard entered Cold's cell.

[zannej]

I know, still wiping the egg off my face for somehow imagining that I remembered that as a J/B scene instead of a J/I one, when I wrote that.  :)   lol

I tried to edit my post to delete that reply when I finished the post and saw that someone had already mentioned it. Don't feel bad. I thought that Barry had called his Dad and not Patty on the phone. For some reason I heard "Dad" instead of "Patty" until I watched it a second time.

 

Wally West was actually the first "Flash" character I read as a kid, because he was a member of the Teen Titans. While the brother of Iris looks/feels nothing like that guy, it's cool that they're already prepping for when Grant negotiates his contract. Joe's scenes with Barry were terrific, though, and as an adoptee, it was touching that for all intents and purposes Barry is Joe's son. (Which is why I was shouting at the TV "Because you didn't know him!" at Joe when he thought he should have some sort of empathic bond with Wally like he did with Iris.)

  None of the romances worked for me except when Weather Wizard entered Cold's cell.

Yeah, I got into the Flash comics from reading Titans, Teen Titans, New Teen Titans, Tales of the Teen Titans, etc. Thanks for reminding me about the empathic bond. I used to have that with my father and with some of my relatives and friends. Although the latter extended to when they were severely ill or dying-- I just felt it and knew something was wrong or that they were dead. Needless to say, it sucked.

 

This.  Flash Day was a huge joke because the people of Central City didn't realize that it was Barry's horrific disregard for them that nearly destroyed them and the whole planet.

Did they show Barry feeling guilty about Flash day? I can't remember. Honestly, if they knew he'd caused it, I doubt they would be celebrating.

 

I disagree with blaming Barry for everything that happened that night, Barry was aware of the risks yes, but he made sure to be back in time. Then some things beyond his control happened, like Eddie killing himself, RF tricking him.  And besides he has done so much for Central City to be crucified for one mistake, he is cleaning the mess  up and still involved in day to day crime-fighting. I dont know why Arrow doesn't celebrate the Green Arrow as Flash does for its hero, but thats not on the Flash writers but Arrow's.

 

Maybe its  a creative choice to me, to set the two heroes apart, not that one is a better hero than the other. They are different heroes in different cities, Barry just got luckier to be accepted as he was.  I think, eventually Green Arrow will be accepted and get his own goodies too.  

Well, I think the key was that Barry went into it knowing that if something went wrong, he could wipe out the entire planet or more yet he still chose to take that risk. Which seems odd considering he'd previously been angry at Dr. Wells for admitting that he knew there was a risk that the particle accelerator could blow but he thought the rewards outweighed the risks and went through with it. Granted, Eobard wanted it to blow, but Barry didn't know that at the time. The fact that Barry was so selfish to risk people's lives and change the timeline was something that always bugged me. It's one thing if the consequences might not have been as bad, but I thought it was way too high of a risk.

 

Barry gets celebrated because Central City seems like a more lighthearted place than Starling City. I think its probably a "nicer" city. Plus Barry has superspeed, rebuilt a whole bunch of buildings, saves people from fires and accidents, probably rescues cats from trees, etc. Green Arrow comes out at night and shoots criminals with arrows. Granted he saves people sometimes, but its not quite the same level of heroics. They just don't perceive him the same way they do Flash. I'm an Arrow fan, but I don't mind the teasing his character gets. Joe knows he killed people and tortures people. I can understand why he would think Oliver is a "crazy man". It's kind of like when you have a sibling who has that one friend that is really annoying and you don't like to be around them but they are loyal and a good friend to your sibling so you put up with them-- but you still can't help but mention their flaws or wonder why your sibling wants to be around them.

[millennium]

Didn't like this episode much.

 

I wish the show would stop the weekly parade of new characters and spend more time developing the character of The Flash.  Now there's Wally West.   I have a deep-seated dislike of superhero sidekicks, so not happy to see Wally.

 

Not liking the direction they're taking Earth 2 Harrison Wells.  Too angsty.   I liked the previous Wells better, whether he was being evil or acting as Barry's mentor.   He was clear-eyed and sincere in both capacities.   This Wells is withdrawn, furtive and not much fun.

 

Patty Spigot's scene was beyond cliche.   Ugh. 

 

Not enough Cisco, either.   Although I did smile at Cisco's Breaking Bad reference: "How'd you like the magnets, bitch?"

 

I hope Barry is collecting licensing fees for all the Flash swag being sold in Central City.

Edited December 10, 2015 by millennium

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Because I'm an insensitive jerk [and not in favor of Batty, since its only purpose is just to be a WestAllen 'ship staller], I had a running mockery of the scene going in my head when Patty was emptying her 'dead Daddy' baggage on Flash.  I was imaging him snarking her story; 

 

"Oh boo-hoo.  You think that's bad?  My father spent close to a fifth of a century in prison for a crime he didn't commit - the murder of my mother, btw, which I got to witness in real time since I missed it the first time - and then I was manipulated like a finger puppet for about a year by her actual murderer.  So do us both a favor and cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it!"

 

And later, when she used that weapon thing to 'snare' Flash so she could deal with Mardon;

 

"Wow.  Didn't know you were in to the whole bondage scene, Patty.  You kinky little minx."

[BkWurm1]

 

What I said was that I fan wanked that Iris had to track things down to be certain that the boy Francine had was in fact, Joe's son. Iris already knew that was at least her half brother - what she did NOT know was whether or not it was Joe's son. Francine could have had an affair. Iris asked Francine if the boy was Joe's, and then immediately said "Wait - I don't want to know."

She did not know his name at that point.In this episode - she DID know his name, which means she had to have done more investigative work to find that out AND to find out that he was, in fact, Joe's son.So the news she found out with Francine earlier in the season wasn't ALL of the information. And most of it at the time she found out was relevant to HER not Joe, until she had proof that it was Joe's son as well as her brother.Again - 20 years. A few weeks [proved above that it was likely a few weeks].

Clarification, given the circumstances, I don't think being mad at Iris is what the should have done, just that it surprised me that no one was mad.

That said, I don't think that Iris didn't know Wally's name before. It's much more likely she'd have acces to public records like a census or a birth record which would have his name on it than some medical record that would include gender but not name. Plus she verified that the kid was still alive. She IMO knew his full name and likely in her heart knew he was her full brother, she just did not want confirmation because it was easier to justify not tell her father when she could pretend maybe it wasn't her dads. Her going to Barry and saying she couldn't keep quiet about it anymore also convinces me she knew all along. Otherwise she'd have told Barry about recently finding out, instead it was about her realizing (because Barry tells her) that her dad needs to know.

She fudged the time line as far as I can tell which is fine but she's not fooling anyone. Joe knows when she last met with her mom. Iris tells him what she'd found out and why she'd turned her mom away even though she was dying. The couple weeks line maybe only was to make it more palatable for the audience not to care about her lying. Which again, I didn't care about, it's just that almost no one lies on Arrow without it blowing up in their face. So it shocked me. And then I have a moment of envy.

-

but I also blame Joe. It bothered me that he basically abandoned his wife like that. And I was glad to hear the character admit it - he abandoned his wife because it was easier. He disregarded his vows because it was easier. And now he's paying a price. Keeping a secret like that for 20 years from Iris was wrong - and now we know he kept it for selfish reasons on his part. Worse, we also know that he gave up on his wife too - she needed help - not judgment. I understand he wanted to protect Iris, but look at all of the harm he's caused. But I can resolve that anger since he ended up losing a son in the deal due to his own actions. 

. He didn't abandon her. She left them. Skipped out on rehab. He let her go and didn't use his police connections to find her, but he didn't force her to leave them and it took her 20 years before she tried contacting them. I don't think Joe should have lied about it to Iris, but he didn't have to go after Francine after she abandoned them and was unwilling to get help with her drug problems.

 

 

I dont know why Arrow doesn't celebrate the Green Arrow as Flash does for its hero, but thats not on the Flash writers but Arrow's.[\quote]

 

Maybe its  a creative choice to me, to set the two heroes apart, not that one is a better hero than the other. They are different heroes in different cities, Barry just got luckier to be accepted as he was.  I think, eventually Green Arrow will be accepted and get his own goodies too.

It is on the Flash writers to make it a running joke to bash GA compared to Arrow writers don't bash Barry. It's one thing if it's a crossover of some kind, then the little jabs and quips are fun, but this repeatedly bringing up the GA just to complain about him when he isn't on the show, IMO, comes off odd. Like it's no longer character related, but the Flash writers taking swipes. Which makes no sense. Flash has the bigger ratings. It's the new darling of DC. Why the need to rip on Arrow? It was funny the first few times but now it's just the same tired joke served up in different variations. It takes me out of the show.

And yeah, that's before I consider how hypocritical it feels when Oliver works hard not to kill anymore and Barry and his team were completely blasé about the people they killed just this fall.

It's more a writers complaint than anything.

[BkWurm1]

Because I'm an insensitive jerk [and not in favor of Batty, since its only purpose is just to be a WestAllen 'ship staller], I had a running mockery of the scene going in my head when Patty was emptying her 'dead Daddy' baggage on Flash.  I was imaging him snarking her story; 

 

"Oh boo-hoo.  You think that's bad?  My father spent close to a fifth of a century in prison for a crime he didn't commit - the murder of my mother, btw, which I got to witness in real time since I missed it the first time - and then I was manipulated like a finger puppet for about a year by her actual murderer.  So do us both a favor and cry me a river, then build a bridge and get over it!"

 

And later, when she used that weapon thing to 'snare' Flash so she could deal with Mardon;

 

"Wow.  Didn't know you were in to the whole bondage scene, Patty.  You kinky little minx."

Patty's felt her actions, specifically doing something irresponsible at an age when she knew better, led to her father's murder. Barry never had to carry that guilt around. Something horrible happened almost twenty years ago and then he got a stable loving family and now has exonerated his father. Patty's dad is still dead, it happened only a few years ago, she still has survivor's guilt and yes, she almost shot her father's murderer. Barry was also tempted to kill the man that killed his mother. He would have if he could have. Not sure why Patty wouldn't deserve sympathy for wanting to take justice in her own hands as well.

[phoenics]

Clarification, given the circumstances, I don't think being mad at Iris is what the should have done, just that it surprised me that no one was mad.

Hmmmm probably an Arrow writer thing... 

  

I'm not sure how the show could have had anyone "get mad" at Iris without serious blowback. It was bad enough to have Iris equate Barry/Joe's mess with her keeping that from Joe. I think the main reason "no one got mad at Iris" is because the writers were saying that lying for any reason (even to protect someone) is still wrong - look at how Iris said it was "hollowing her out". And thankfully instead of encouraging her to keep the secret to protect Joe, the show gave us a more mature Barry who encouraged Iris to tell him.

It was important - hence why it was different on Arrow. But it could also be that the Arrow writers are just mean.

Although I'm still upset about how Laurel's dad treated her for lying about Sara - that was a hard situation and in that one I can almost come to your side - except I hate how the writers did that story. They put Laurel in a no win situation with her dad's heart condition. If she had told, they would have made her dad have a heart attack. She didn't tell and her dad basically disowns her (he's an ass). That's another reason I lost interest in Arrow. It felt like the Laurel-whipping show. Ugh - moving on!

  

He didn't abandon her. She left them. Skipped out on rehab. He let her go and didn't use his police connections to find her, but he didn't force her to leave them and it took her 20 years before she tried contacting them. I don't think Joe should have lied about it to Iris, but he didn't have to go after Francine after she abandoned them and was unwilling to get help with her drug problems.

Thanks for the correction - I think he still should have gone after his wife to find her - he easily could have. But I can cut him some slack - although I do still think he was selfish. Joe tends to do things to make it easier on himself rather than to trust people... big flaw he has. 

 

And yeah, that's before I consider how hypocritical it feels when Oliver works hard not to kill anymore and Barry and his team were completely blasé about the people they killed just this fall.

It's more a writers complaint than anything.

Yeah - the fact that Barry is killing folks this season (no one ever SAYS it, but the ashes are there and at least 2 villains have died) bothers me and it feels like the writers think we are stupid. Do they think it's all kids watching The Flash so they don't notice and then adults show up for Arrow? Weird.

Edited December 10, 2015 by phoenics

[kirkola]

Thanks for the correction - I think he still should have gone after his wife to find her - he easily could have. But I can cut him some slack - although I do still think he was selfish. Joe tends to do things to make it easier on himself rather than to trust people... big flaw he has. 

 

 

I don't know.  We really don't know how long Francine was a drug addict or how many times Joe tried to save her.  It could easily have been one of those where he just couldn't continue to dry her out and fix her one more time.  Especially not with a young Iris to take care of. 

 

Having been in a similar situation, at some point, you have to let the other person go--for your own sanity.  And yeah, because it's a loved one, the guilt never really goes away.  Especially if they hurt themselves or end up dead.

 

I do agree about Joe's flaw though.

[CabotCove]

It is on the Flash writers to make it a running joke to bash GA compared to Arrow writers don't bash Barry. It's one thing if it's a crossover of some kind, then the little jabs and quips are fun, but this repeatedly bringing up the GA just to complain about him when he isn't on the show, IMO, comes off odd. Like it's no longer character related, but the Flash writers taking swipes. Which makes no sense. Flash has the bigger ratings. It's the new darling of DC. Why the need to rip on Arrow? It was funny the first few times but now it's just the same tired joke served up in different variations. It takes me out of the show.

 

 

Not all GA references are bad and not every Flash  character hates him. I genuinely believe Flash writers are fans of GA, he gets mentioned often while Flash doesnt get much from the Arrow writers. If they thought he was lame, why would they constantly remind Flash viewers of him. Flash is top rated, they don't need to mention GA, yet they do it anyway. I think it was meant to be more of a wink than a bash.  

Btw Arrow writers once had Quentin calling Barry "The freak from Central City". Cops are meant to be antagonistic to vigilantism in this universe, I dont think Joe/Quentin are meant to be taken seriously about what they say. JMO.

 

He didn't abandon her. She left them. Skipped out on rehab. He let her go and didn't use his police connections to find her, but he didn't force her to leave the+m and it took her 20 years before she tried contacting them. I don't think Joe should have lied about it to Iris, but he didn't have to go after Francine after she abandoned them and was unwilling to get help with her drug problems.

 

This story was so contrived, they make Joe look very bad IMO. Someone shown to be as caring and a good cop like him, would have done more in those 20 years to help Francine. Francine needed intervention, if she could quit drugs so easily it wouldn't be called an addiction. Drugs also alter people's brains, the person affected likely wont be able to think clearly to quit on their own. They need help even if they think they dont want it.

Edited December 10, 2015 by WildcardC

[TwistedandBored]

They mention Green Arrow but not in a good light and I am really starting to get annoyed by that. I know Oliver is not the greatest guy in the world but he has been saving people a lot longer than Barry. So, The Flash writers need to cool it. 

[XtremeOne1]

During the Joe/Iris scene, I couldn't help but think "Man, the writer's just can't write a father-daughter relationship"

 

I was half expecting the scene to go like this:

Iris *eyeing the watch*: Well it's from family...

 

Joe: Yes, family. Barry and I. *Puts watch away, because it's a manly watch!* Iris, I've got an early Christmas present for you. *Puts small box on table*

 

Iris: Oh! Grandma's pearl ear rings?

 

Joe: No, I gave that to Barry, just in case he has a daughter.

 

Iris: Oh....*opens the box to find a key chain with her name inside. Her name is spelled*...Dad, there is no E in Iris.

 

Joe: There is no E in Barry either. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

I disagree with blaming Barry for everything that happened that night, Barry was aware of the risks yes, but he made sure to be back in time. Then some things beyond his control happened, like Eddie killing himself, RF tricking him.  And besides he has done so much for Central City to be crucified for one mistake, he is cleaning the mess  up and still involved in day to day crime-fighting.

 

No offense, but what Barry did that night was beyond reckless.

 

It was plunging into the unknown, guided by a psycho who wanted him dead, with numerous variables that could have gone wrong that he was aware of. And by definition, unknown variables could also have undermined this plan.

 

Primarily, the plan involved beating Thawne in the past -- something he was never able to do by himself previously and that he barely did with the help of Arrow and Firestorm -- within a limited time frame and then returning to the present. He was very lucky things were not worse.

[zannej]

I forgot to ask, maybe someone can explain to me: What was the original quote from "Breaking Bad" that Cisco paraphrased. I've never seen a single episode or clip of that show.