S02.E10: I Live Here Now

[shapeshifter]

I found this episode to be really disturbing. Probably when it was written, it was about Mexican immigration to the US. Now, with Syrian refugees, even more troubling re the symbolism. So those refugees are storming the gates and bring debauchery and bad times with them. I could be wrong, but what else should we take from this, if not that?

Like you, I saw the immigration symbolism when the Jardin/Miracle police were keeping people out with fences, but then--for me--it seemed to morph into something else. By the end, the GR, carnies, and other assorted people who scrambled into the town could just as easily represented 15th-18th century Europeans spreading over North America to fulfill their "Manifest Destiny." But, yeah, you're right, I think the people who swarmed into Jardin are how a lot of Americans see immigrants in general, whether from Mexico and South America, or Asia, or the Middle East, or Africa, or Eastern Europe.

Oh, I cracked up when the dog just ran over the bridge, damn, where's the loyalty?

Maybe I saw too many episodes of Lassie when I was a kid, but I thought the dog was going towards the police car on the bridge to get help for injured Kevin, but that Kevin wasn't too sure the police would be in an assistance-rendering mood towards him at that moment, so he went in the opposite direction.

ETA: The trailer having no bomb was a nice parallel to the dud grenade Meg tossed on the school bus. Well, "nice" isn't a very good descriptor, but I mean that I didn't feel cheated by the reveal that the plan was never to blow up anyone.

The actress who played Evie showed a lot of emotion on her face when her mom was begging her to get off the bridge and saying that if she was going to blow herself up, then she (Erika) wasn't leaving either. I imagine my face must have looked like Evie's when my elderly mom was recently begging me to stay with her another week after my dad died, but my sister, daughter, and the grief counselor said it would be better for my mom if I left. Totally different motivations, and yet the same emotions. I couldn't help but think how hard it was for Evie to say nothing.

Edited December 7, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Save Yourself]

That sucked balls. No more Lindelof for me ever again, I was very wary of watching The Leftovers considering the Lost fiasco so 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me'. Lindelof has a very overrated opinion of how clever he is, I'm not sure how many of you saw him on Talking Dead but I seriously wanted to throw things at him. It's not amazing storytelling to give little snippets of stories so that 'the audience can make their own interpretations' or whatever nonsense he wants to spout, it just seems he doesn't flipping know what to do with his nuggets of ideas. I don't need things spelt out for me and I can enjoy slow moving shows - one of my favourite shows of the last few years is Rectify. That show doesn't baby the audience through the storyline but they certainly demonstrate character's motivations which The Leftovers has been sorely lacking. It just pisses me off that a really interesting idea has been given to that twit and he's Lost-ified it, you'd think he would have grown from that debacle. I honestly expected at the end for it to all have been Kevin's psychotic hallucinations or some crap like that.

 

Re the actual episode, THAT was Meg's big plan?! Let everyone in to Miracle? That's what I thought she was planning and it's pretty bad that I guessed that - it's very unimaginative and I have no idea how that is going to 'change everything'. If it was so easy to storm why on earth hadn't the squatters all done that long ago?

 

So many unanswered questions because I guess the writers just don't have the answers:

How did Meg convince Evie to join; why did the other 2 girls join; why did Evie write her mother would 'understand'; why did the woman steal the baby just to leave it on the bridge; why does Kevin keep coming back from the dead; why did John and the fire dept take action against people claiming miracles; why did Meg stone that guy if all he saw was a caravan - not explosives; why do earthquakes keep happening; why did Regina King want to leave without her children; how did Regina become deaf; why did the squatters immediately start trashing Jarden; what was the naked scene of the 3 girls running through the woods about; where did the GR get all their money from; what was Michael's 'deal'; why did Laurie join the GR in the first place; why didn't Nora ever abuse the shit out of Matt for sticking her with a catatonic woman (god, poor Nora carrying the baby in a sling and pushing Mary's chair!); why did Meg become so evil; why did 5 year old Michael not want his Mum to know that Evie was crying - it's normal for kids to get upset; what's the deal with the Australian story snippet. 

 

I could think of loads more unanswered things and I really think that's a sign of a poorly written show. What's the point in throwing stuff out there, of using up valuable screen time, if nothing is going to come of it? Chekhov's Gun anyone?

[BooBear]

Ok that was as close to the line of stupidity that this show can go without losing me... but, close enough not to lose me.  When Kevin was shot I was sure he was dead and saw no way for him to survive. Normally I would NOT allow this kind of insane storyline where Kevin survives a point blank gunshot to his chest but there is that guy in "Australia" sho says he can't die.  Maybe it is something connected to that.  Or something to do with Jarden-- after all Mary is back.  Also, since Purgatory this time was a short trip I can be more forgiving.  I hope they tell us where they filmed Purgatory. I want to go now.

 

The BIG problem I had with this show was the GR plan. That is a Federal Park folks. They would have had extra security and if anyone did that, the national guard and every police agency in Texas would be in miracle rounding them up.  The guilty remnant would have signed their own death warrant as law enforcement would no longer tolerate them.  So I don't undertstand why Megan was so triumphant.  I mean maybe she made her point by "soiling" miracle but in the end it wouldn't amount to much but overtime for law enforcement and a better security gate.

 

I also had a problem with Kevin seeming to be nice to John at the end. Kevin he shot you. He would have killed you AND he didn't get any help. And you guys are buddies now?

 

But in the end I enjoyed Kevins journey this year and it really seemed to send the message that he had learned his lesson and was fighting to get back to the people he loved. That was very much worth it. And JT did a great job this year.

[revbfc]

Parsifal - Who is the Grail?

Gurnemanz- That I can not say. But if you yourself are called to its service that knowledge will not remain withheld.

There was a lot of good stuff in this episode, but it was still too messy. There were a lot of wounds that fester but won't kill (both literal and figurative). There also was the message that victory and healing can only be accomplished through compassion. The problem is that it wasn't entirely earned. There was too much clutter, and the storming of Jarden was savagery, not catharsis.

Edited December 7, 2015 by revbfc

[Pallas]

When Evie wrote "You understand," her mom looked devastated, and I wasn't sure why. My first thought was that the cycle of abuse may have reached Evie, and either Virgil or her dad had abused her. Virgil would make more sense, especially if he's Erika's dad and abused her, and then abused Evie, and John shot him after finding out about Evie (and that could also help explain some of why she was so upset when John went to prison). Or is it something much more simple and I just missed it?

 

To Michael, Erika was very clear that Virgil was her father. To Kevin in their first big scene, Virgil was very clear that the child he had abused was male (probably one of the reasons that people thought that he was John's father). I think Evie's YOU UNDERSTAND was a furious retort to her mother's idea that Evie unambiguously adored her father, to Erika's certainty that young Evie hadn't understood why John was arrested, or would never understand why Erika would leave; to Erika's attempt to keep her children innocent of even the knowledge of the sins of their forebears.  

 

YOU UNDERSTAND meant, UNDERSTAND THIS: I UNDERSTAND!  And mirrored Jill's matter-of-fact, penetrating statements to her father about Nora: first, when she advised Kevin not to fuck it up this time, then after Nora left -- and Kevin tried to not-explain that it was "complicated" -- "I bet it's not."  

 

Children often can't afford the innocence their parents may wish for them; they suffer when they see their parents contort themselves and the truth in an effort to spare them from what they can't help perceiving. The children in Jarden, Evie was saying, were not spared -- not spared the fruit of the tree of knowledge.  And had been driven into silence by the lies.

[WearyTraveler]

So does anyone understand the deal with Evie?   What about that story her brother told about her crying when they were five?   Did anyone get it or is that another show mystery?  

 

 

Evie was crying when they were five because her dad was put in prison for attempted murder (for trying to kill her grandfather, Virgil). She didn't understand why he had gone away.

I think Evie had a lot of teenage angst combined with a messed up family situation - weird & abusive grandfather (I'm not just sure he only abused John....perhaps John shot him because he abused Evie or her brother); dad with anger issues who goes to prison for shooting abusive grandfather; super-religious brother who still hangs out with weird abusive grandfather;

and mom who is planning to dessert her & leave her with the ex-con dad with anger issues & brother. She knew there was still plenty of hurt and pain in Jarden without any departures.

 

I think this is possible, but my first thought was that on top of all the pain of her father going away for years and returning with anger issues, she had discovered her mother's plan to bail, ergo "You understand", meaning "you wanted to leave too".

 

I interpreted that as Evie knowing her mother had been planning to leave too, but I'm not sure how she could have known that.

 

IIRC, Erika had a bag packed and ready to go hidden in her closet.  Evie used to borrow Erika's jewelry often, so, it was established she goes into her mother's bedroom when Erika is not there.  I think Evie probably found her mother's bag and figured out what she was planning to do. 

 

I guess Kevin needed a break after all his angst but the happy family reunion--not to mention recovery from the gunshot--didn't quite seem earned.

 

It did for me, in season 1 Kevin admitted that before the 14th he had briefly wanted to be out of the whole family deal.  This season he was trying but failing miserably, starting with keeping Patti a secret and then telling Nora at the worst possible time.  Then he goes and lets Virgil kill him, just so he can be with Nora and his family and has to go through the whole International Assassin ordeal (pushing a kid into a well, for crying out loud), being buried, coming clean with Jon, and he still can't get to them.

 

I agree with the person who said JT was perfect in that Karaoke scene.  And it was precisely that he was not on pitch while he sang.  He sounded exactly like a broken man who realizes exactly how much he wants his family back as he sings.  He starts all business like "okay, if this is what it takes, I'll sing your stupid song" and as the lyrics sink in, you can hear how they are affecting him emotionally.  Tremendous job, there.  Totally sold it to me.

 

The GR breach of Miracle was much more satisfying to me. The whole weird National Park/tourist trap stuff with its rigid regulations and obsession with wrist bands was just as perverse in its own way as the GR. The more the Sudden Departure is co-opted for someone's ideological affirmation, the worse it gets. Forcing people to remember those they have lost and never recover from grief is bad but so is making regular small town people who managed to luck out on October 14 but had the usual tragedies and heartaches every other day into some blessed remnant forced to sacrifice their privacy and freedom of movement is just as bad. So the GR taking over the Visitors Center and destroying the blockade seemed poetic justice.

 

There are miracles in Jarden and the unseen force that is at play has its chosen ones, even if their favor isn't apparent in all things. It wasn't going to let Kevin bail on his family; no matter how often he died, it would send him back until he realized that his family was everything to him. I'm wondering if it also kept John from killing anyone with all his violence, so that he would have time to repent and gain redemption. Thinking back to the indigenous woman, the force seemed to favor her and then desert her but her baby was probably the chosen one. It survived all its perils and found a new clan, just as Lily has. (Nevertheless, I'd like to see the group that welcomed Kevin back getting through Thanksgiving without a meltdown.) I was very happy for Matt and Mary; he deserves some happiness after all his troubles.

 

 

Very astute observations.  I agree on all counts.  And I'd like to add that I wish to be a fly on the wall during that Thanksgiving dinner! :D

 

Oh, I cracked up when the dog just ran over the bridge, damn, where's the loyalty? 

 

I thought the dog went to get Nora, who was still in the trailer, where Tom told her she would be safe.  And that's how Nora ended up back in the house.  Once she saw the dog was free, she took it home (while Kevin headed for the hospital).

 

Kevin got his wish.  "Know first who you are, then adorn yourself accordingly."

 

Yes, he was still the a cop, he was still a family man.  By choosing that outfit he declined all the "glamour" of what could have been if he'd made other choices.  He decided he wanted to be the small town cop, instead of hooking up with strangers because it was "exciting" and "new".  Basically, he signaled that he'd gotten over his pre-departure midlife crisis.

 

Fix that, Jesus.

 

And Mary wakes up!! LOL!

[Juliegirlj]

Nice explanation Pallas! I think the kids obviously resented the hell out of the town claiming to be spared,and while they had no one depart, all the ugliness was right under the surface. The way I look a viewing The Leftovers is that it shouldn't be watched expecting a literal interpretation, that way, when there is some closure, like in the finale, it is a bonus. It is the journey, not the destination, that should be enjoyed. I loved that, in the end, it was never questioned that Kevin would harbor no ill will towards John. Their parallel journeys were intersecting at times, and ended on the commonality of the human condition. Loved it when Kevin told John to come to his house if no one is there at John's.

I could barely breathe when Erika was trying to get through to her daughter on the bridge, and loved it when they could not stop her from going to her child.

[A Boston Gal]

JT singing Homeward Bound was perfect. Perfect song for the show/episode/actor. It was doubly perfect because he didn't sing it pitch perfect. The lyrics were perfect. Okay. I'll stop with the perfect now.

In my head canon:

• Tom just faked joining the GR so he could get inside Miracle to his family.
• The last earthquake killed John in his house.

Yeah, and a cat who made friends with the dog who bit him. Heh.

And He did. LOL.

The only choice I'm not sure was good was the last scene between Kevin and John where Kevin was all bygones and forgiveness. It seemed weird because of their respective racial backgrounds. IDK, but there's so much racial baggage in the US that it was hard not to find it paternalistic at best. Mileage will definitely vary, so sorry if I sound like a killjoy.

 

I completely understand what you mean about the respective backgrounds, but I think that since John out-and out ran every single aspect of law enforcement in Jarden (including his influence over the US Park Rangers in keeping Matt back out of Jarden), then we've pretty much blown up many storyline stereotypes.  John had all the (man made) power in his town, and Kevin had none. To my mind, that helped balance any disparity between the two men.

 

Besides, in reality, a national park takeover by a known radical cult would probably result in some kind of US Government response, so I don't know how much of the outside world truly affects this show's reality. By the way, does the internet even exist in The Leftover's universe? Everyone was functioning in a vacuum of information and sense of time and space. It was almost "Pleasantville"-esque.

 

That being said, I loved this episode and season. I cheered when Kevin chose the Mapleton cop uniform to wear ("To thine own self be true"), and was in tears when I saw Kevin's whole family waiting for him.  Meg was right - Family Is Everything.  (Although...Laurie and Nora being under one roof was kinda weird, but I'm sure they'll work it out somehow. ;) )

Edited December 7, 2015 by A Boston Gal

[ShellSeeker]

I agree with the person who said JT was perfect in that Karaoke scene.  And it was precisely that he was not on pitch while he sang.  He sounded exactly like a broken man who realizes exactly how much he wants his family back as he sings.  He starts all business like "okay, if this is what it takes, I'll sing your stupid song" and as the lyrics sink in, you can hear how they are affecting him emotionally.  Tremendous job, there.  Totally sold it to me.

 

Yep, me too. As I said earlier, I thought it was going to be really corny and hokey, but it wasn't. When he was talking with the guy about how to get back, and he asked Kevin why he should get to go back when no one else could, Kevin replied with, "Because I deserve it." And said it with no hesitation. I think that was his moment of clarity and he realized that all he wanted was to be with his family. We saw him struggle with this all through seasons 1 and 2, and now, finally he's come out the other side having left all his demons behind. 

 

I did like the exchange between Laurie and Jill, when Laurie said, "You have to talk to me eventually!" and Jill's incredulous response to hear that coming from Laurie, of all people. 

 

On a related note, for some reason my 6 year old decided she didn't want to talk this morning, so she was communicating with me by writing notes. When she handed me the first one I thought, "Oh, great...how did the Guilty Remnant find my daughter?"

[Primetimer]

With the season finale, Matt Debenham looks back on Season 2.

Read the story

[Empress1]

My favorite exchange:

John: "I killed you."

Kevin: "Nope."

[Fisher King]

I agree with the person who said JT was perfect in that Karaoke scene.  And it was precisely that he was not on pitch while he sang.  He sounded exactly like a broken man who realizes exactly how much he wants his family back as he sings.  He starts all business like "okay, if this is what it takes, I'll sing your stupid song" and as the lyrics sink in, you can hear how they are affecting him emotionally.  Tremendous job, there.  Totally sold it to me.

 

That scene went on forever but I imagine it was warranted to show just how broken Kevin is. Justin Theroux gave all for this role. Kudos.

 

Can someone with a better musical ear tell me if the accompanying guitar was also out of tune? Sounded like it to me - maybe to reflect some of the singing?

[Cardie]

^^Although I wanted him to say, "You didn't try hard enough."

 

Weary Traveler, I didn't so much feel that Kevin Garvey hadn't earned his happiness as that the writers hadn't earned it for him when they pulled a resurrection three times as the only way to get him there. ​

[scrb]

So Evie joined the GR to turn the lives of her parents and the town upside down because her parents weren't getting along?  What a crock.

 

Basically there's a soap opera at the bottom of all this angst and empty symbolism of unexplainable (or just unexplained) "miracles."

 

It's fine for Lindelhoff to use attention-grabbing gimmicks but when it's time to explain those gimmicks, he cops out and says it's not a show about supernatural phenomenon, it's about people coping with their feelings and other nonsense.

 

You can make a show about "feelings" without resorting to gimmicks.

[RedheadZombie]

I don't like the Murphy family, but the actor playing John killed it last night. He almost brought me to tears. Having said that, I would be very happy to never again hear him yelling, "EEEEVEEEE".

Did we ever hear why Erika is HOH? It's rare to have a deaf character without it being a plot twist. People who have her level of hearing don't commonly learn ASL, but since we saw her using it, I thought it would be a significant plot point. Her speech shows she wasn't deaf until near adulthood. And I think they've confused hearing aids with cochlear implants in the scene in which she didn't hear the door.

[meep.meep]

Nice explanation Pallas! I think the kids obviously resented the hell out of the town claiming to be spared,and while they had no one depart, all the ugliness was right under the surface. The way I look a viewing The Leftovers is that it shouldn't be watched expecting a literal interpretation, that way, when there is some closure, like in the finale, it is a bonus. It is the journey, not the destination, that should be enjoyed. I loved that, in the end, it was never questioned that Kevin would harbor no ill will towards John. Their parallel journeys were intersecting at times, and ended on the commonality of the human condition. Loved it when Kevin told John to come to his house if no one is there at John's.

I could barely breathe when Erika was trying to get through to her daughter on the bridge, and loved it when they could not stop her from going to her child.

 

I'm with you.  To me, John and Kevin at the end was the logical conclusion of what they'd been through.  "You come to my house then" and the hand on the shoulder.

 

Michael beat Meg to the punch by telling the Jarden congregation that they weren't so special.

 

Why were the earthquakes only happening to the greater Garvey family?  No one else seemed to feel the one that woke up Mary or the one that Kevin went through just before getting home.

[represent]

 

So does anyone understand the deal with Evie?   What about that story her brother told about her crying when they were five?   Did anyone get it or is that another show mystery?

I think the story Michael told was just another example of this family not really knowing one another, especially the parents just not really knowing the truth about who their kids are...they definitely didn't know Evie.

 

She didn't love them, like Kevin said and they actually were presented as a loving family, even though we as viewers could tell something was off. 

 

They clearly were all lying to each other.

[Mindymoo]

Kevin was far more forgiving of John than I would be in that situation, but if you can't trust the neighbor who shot and "killed" you, who can you trust?

 

The karaoke bar scene was excellent. I loved everything about it. He sounded like every karaoke singer I ever heard.

[represent]

 

I found this episode to be really disturbing.  Probably when it was written, it was about Mexican immigration to the US.  Now, with Syrian refugees, even more troubling re the symbolism.  So those refugees are storming the gates and bring debauchery and bad times with them.  I could  be wrong, but what else should we take from this, if not that?

Yeah, I never even saw that connection seeing as I never saw those folks as immigrants. I felt they had every right to travel from one state to another. Now as far as how they behave once they are in that state is a whole other matter. But we are allowed to travel and even permanently move to different states in this country.

 

Except when people lose there ever loving minds like in the case of Hurricane Katrina.

 

This reminded me of that and how those survivors were treated. They incorrectly as far as I'm concerned, were treated like they were refugees and they weren't because they had a country, they were citizens of the USA. But they were not allowed to cross into other counties/towns that bordered them etc...They lived in a country that was not war torn, nor were they being tortured, before the natural disaster hit. They weren't trying to leave Louisiana, they loved their state even the poorest of them seem to love it down there. But they were flooded out and when they tried to seek help they were barred from doing so. They were just not allowed to cross into other counties/towns etc...they were being discriminated against IMO and so were the people in that camp. 

 

Back to Jarden, It's interesting that the people in the camp were seen as threatening and sure there were many unsavory folk in that camp, they were unsavory folk living in Jarden, like John Murphy for starters.  But for all of that, it took Meg for them to bulldoze their way into that town?   If they were so collectively dangerous I would think they could have done that a long time ago.

Edited December 7, 2015 by represent

[izabella]

It seemed like they had a lot more cops at that bridge and in the Visitor Center in the past.  Seemed like there were plenty of them when they didn't want to let Matt and his family back in after their wristbands were stolen.  Don't know where they all were when Meg drove past the ONE cop at the gate.

Edited December 7, 2015 by izabella

[Jael]

I don't like the Murphy family, but the actor playing John killed it last night. He almost brought me to tears. Having said that, I would be very happy to never again hear him yelling, "EEEEVEEEE".

 

EEEEVIEEEE is the new WAAAAAAALT.

 

When they showed the bathtub I thought it was going to be a flashback to when the kids were five and what really happened in the revisionist story Michael told his mom in the church, because that's how this show rolls. But when Justin Theroux popped out and I realized we were in the hotel I literally yelled DAMMIT NOT THE HOTEL AGAIN. But at least he didn't put on the suit.

 

Kind of a mess -- why did Meg think that plan was so amazing? -- but all in all I enjoyed the season. The leisurely storytelling suits me, I just don't love some of the choices, like how much time was spent on Kevin/Patti instead of more interesting people like Nora (who I did not believe for one hot second would have silently chased that woman instead of yelling "She's got my baby!!" or some variant thereof.)

[represent]

 

 

(who I did not believe for one hot second would have silently chased that woman instead of yelling "She's got my baby!!" or some variant thereof.)

 

But was there a part of Nora that didn't believe this "She's got my baby!" until she was snatched from her? Because at first I thought she hesitated when she first realized that the baby was laying there, but it could have just been shock...

 

I thought this all connected to the radio program she was listening to at the beginning of the show. Do you remember what the caller was saying? I can't remember all of it exactly. 

 

But I think the caller was saying that he wanted to have another child but that the wife didn't, she just couldn't see loving another child? Then the radio host said that he agreed with the caller's wife, and that pissed Nora off... I know I'm missing parts of it...

 

But when that woman in the camp kept saying that the baby wasn't Nora's, then she snatched her and Nora had to run and possibly fight to claim her, I definitely thought it tied back to the radio show she was listening to.

 

Because part of the sentiment this season well from the Patti character was that what Kevin and Nora have is fake, and I included the adoption of Lily with that. It's not real, it's just a band aide so the scene with her running after Lily was to finally put an end to that sentiment. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by represent

[Helena Dax]

I don't see the people outside Jarden=inmigrants metaphor. To me, they're reality.  People in  Jarden were living in a bubble, thinking that they  were special and blessed. They're not. They might be living in a special place,  but they aren't better than anyone  else. And now, thanks to Meg, Jarden  doesn't look blessed anymore. Reality is there, showing  its ugly face.

 

But Meg's plan was more unrealistic than Kevin resurrecting again. The cops would have arrested or even killed Meg and the girls the moment they heard about the explosives. I just can't believe they just stood there, waiting. They had an  hour to call  everyone:  the FBI, the Army... And they didn't do anything!

 

Loved that Mary woke up.  Matt didn't seem surprised at all, just very happy to see her. And the ending was very  touching. I want a third season, but if this is the end, it's a hopeful one.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Helena Dax

[scrb]

Figured for sure Nora would catch up to the woman and rip that stupid piercing off since she had a chain running off of it.

[whiporee]

I saw Jarden after the invasion as hell -- the people fucking on the street, the orange hue everywhere, the literal burning of the sign and the destruction everywhere. Not even doctors at their stations.

If I were with the GR, that was a perfect fuck you to everyone. We'll take over the place you thought was safe, and prove that it isn't. And the smugness of the Jardenians was palpable, from the minister's sermon to the song, to the way they limited outsiders. It didn't stand out as much early, but as the year went on, it seemed to be a town ready for a smackdown.

One of the themes that was unfortunately dropped was the idea that they don't know this won't happen again. I can't imagine living with the memory of what had happened, but the fear it could happen again? This show did (does?) a very good job of showing how something you wouldn't normally think -- that losing 2 percent of anything could be devastating. But the more I think about it, the more I'm surprised they've got any society left at all.

[BooBear]

Couple of more thoughts

- I was terrified when that scum took Lilly. The idea that Nora would suffer another tragedy with this crazy woman taking her baby was too much for me. I had to switch off until it was resolved.

- I loved when the scum came up and said something abouit Lilly and Nora literally ROARED at her go away. So intense and take no prisoners.

- If we get a season three I wan't a flashback to Nora, Tom, Laurie, Jill, all ending up in the same room and introducing themselves.

- At first I was not on the "Kevin is dead" bandwagon but today I have been questioning it. The fact that the police were not in Miracle several hours later... points not to bad writing (which almost would have been insane new levels) but rather that this "scary jarden" was not real. You could argue that Kevin had no reason to know about Meg and Evie but it is possible that he had put it together seeing Evie stage the departure scene and leave him there to die.  Almost everything after the bathtub is off / strange.

- Everyone says that they can't see why Evie would join the GR.. I do. Isn't that disaffected teenager 101? Rebelous teenager 101? I would imagine the GR would be flush with vapid teenagers who see a way to hurt their parents, not have to go to school, smoke and have a socal message. Not saying Evie was this but I would imagine it wouldn't be such a leap.

- When Kevin got out of the tub I thought... oh dear.. this show has jumped the shark, but they got me back with Kevin's "because it is stupid".

- Who is Austriallian guy from Purgatory?

[represent]

 

Who is Austriallian guy from Purgatory?

That was the same guy who was on the bridge who attacked him in the car and challenged him to jump instead of crossing over with little girl Patti down the well.

 

He told him that it would change him if he pushed her. 

[xaxat]

For me, the episode was about five seconds to long. I would have preferred both John and Kevin at their front door, not knowing what lies on the other side.

 

I am sympathetic with most of the arguments made by the critics, but I still liked this season. However, another season  of this kind of ambiguity would probably be too much for me.

 

Crazily enough, the thing that bugged me most about the show was the geography of Jarden. It's accessible by a single bridge/road? I'd like to live there. Not because of the "miracles", but because it would be a great place to ride out the upcoming zombie apocalypse.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Kevin was far more forgiving of John than I would be in that situation, but if you can't trust the neighbor who shot and "killed" you, who can you trust?

I thought Kevin's reaction to John wasn't so much one of forgiveness as it was one of emotional and physical exhaustion. Guy who shot me is here again? I'm exhausted and near dying (again) so WTF, hey, what's up, John? And when he doesn't try to kill Kevin again and tries to help him, Kevin is just over what happened because really, that's hardly the weirdest thing that's happened to him recently. So hey, if no one is home at your house, come on over to mine.

Edited December 8, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[loki567]

 

- If we get a season three I wan't a flashback to Nora, Tom, Laurie, Jill, all ending up in the same room and introducing themselves.

 

I like it. I wouldn't mind an episode during the eight hours that Kevin was out. 

[AuntiePam]

I liked the end where John asked what to do if no one was home and Kevin said "then you come over to my house."

 

I think that was the whole point of this season -- honest sharing, friendship, forgiveness, empathy.  We watch Jarden, the "miracle town", shutting people out, feeling special, superior.  It sorta goes back to -- was it Megan? -- saying that if you lost someone the day before The Departure, nobody cared, nobody grieved with you.  And there's a whole town where nobody cares.  Everyone's just "Oh good for me, my life didn't change".

 

It's an odd show and I didn't understand 99% of it, but it was very compelling.

[shapeshifter]

Kevin was far more forgiving of John than I would be in that situation, but if you can't trust the neighbor who shot and "killed" you, who can you trust?

I suppose surviving what should have been a fatal gunshot (and a drowning) would put a person in a forgiving mood. Is that what you mean?

[ottoDbusdriver]

Crazily enough, the thing that bugged me most about the show was the geography of Jarden. It's accessible by a single bridge/road? I'd like to live there. Not because of the "miracles", but because it would be a great place to ride out the upcoming zombie apocalypse.

 

Is it supposed to be on an island in the middle of a river or something ?  None of these sections of the river that the bridge crosses can be waded across.  That seems unlikely.

[BooBear]

That was the same guy who was on the bridge who attacked him in the car and challenged him to jump instead of crossing over with little girl Patti down the well.He told him that it would change him if he pushed her. 

 

No I got that, I mean who was he supposed to be. God, the devil?  Weird to have a random person taking up so much importance to the show and we don't know the person's importance.

[txhorns79]

But Meg's plan was more unrealistic that Kevin resurrecting again. The cops would have arrested or even killed Meg and the girls the moment they heard about the explosives. I just can't believe they just stood there, waiting. They had an  hour to call  everyone:  the FBI, the Army... And they didn't do anything!

 

Yeah, given the way the town was treated with almost holy reverence, it made no sense to me that the Park Rangers were entirely unprepared for the idea that many people would try to rush the bridge at once, or someone would try to stage a terrorist attack on the bridge.  I think Evie and her friends would have been arrested and cleared out within minutes, and a bomb squad would have gone into to check out the van.  They wouldn't just stand around waiting to see what happened. 

 

I did think Regina King was incredible in her scenes on the bridge with Evie.  She had so many emotions running across her face within a minute or two, and her utter devastation in the face of Evie's cruelty reminded me a little of Nora's breakdown at the end of last season when she saw what the GR had set up in her kitchen.   

[RedheadZombie]

I saw Jarden after the invasion as hell -- the people fucking on the street, the orange hue everywhere, the literal burning of the sign and the destruction everywhere. Not even doctors at their stations.

I agree. It had creepy Satanic undertones.

[Misty79]

I thought this was a great finale and completed the depression allegory nicely. Having finally shed himself of Patti (the persistent wound) through a near suicidal intervention Kevin can begin the long journey ahead to put his life back together should he so choose, but something unexpected occurs (the gunshot). On the brink again, finally he opts to fight for his life and for his home, appreciating at last that it is enough. 

 

There's a lot of little loose ends I'd like to have seen tied up but I accept that I probably won't ever. That's kind of the joy of the show, the uncertainty is part of the ride.  

[shapeshifter]

I completely understand what you mean about the respective backgrounds, but I think that since John out-and out ran every single aspect of law enforcement in Jarden (including his influence over the US Park Rangers in keeping Matt back out of Jarden), then we've pretty much blown up many storyline stereotypes.  John had all the (man made) power in his town, and Kevin had none. To my mind, that helped balance any disparity between the two men.

True, and good points. I just couldn't get past it--probably because I lived in a rural, predominantly white county that had a black sheriff, now I live in a country with a black president and near Chicago, which, in my lifetime had a black mayor, and yet...well, for example, in my safe, northern suburb where I am a librarian, I determined that a black man who I was recently helping do research for a book would be better off going to the Chicago Public Library to access archival materials, but he only half joked that if he went there he was likely to get shot. So for me the efforts of writers to get past racial stereotypes always take me out of the story because I don't see a post-racial society yet. But maybe if they keep giving that vision it will come to pass.

I saw Jarden after the invasion as hell -- the people fucking on the street, the orange hue everywhere, the literal burning of the sign...

I missed the copulating people on my tiny screen, but good point! There were little fires everywhere. The J[G]arden of Eden became Hell. But here it was not so much the result of people choosing to disobey God and listen to the Serpent, was it?

I wonder if one of the reasons Perotta and Lindlehoff did not go with any actual bombings was to avoid getting an episode yanked in the event of a similar tragedy occurring--several times I've seen this happen when a show's drama mirrors life and the current state of the collective psyche in our 24-hour news cycles.

Regardless, it would be awesome if some wannabe terrorist watches the show and sees that it is much more effective to scare people than physically hurt them if you want to stage a coup. I dunno. That's just what I woke up thinking about it the next day.

[nachomama]

Did the plant the National Geographic magazine just so Kevin could flash on it in his song? I cannot say that anything makes any sense to me but I will say Regina King seriously rocks. I do say everyone on the show are excellent criers! Even John brought it and I hate him. but Regina King is legendary. I was looking at her and thinking holy crap that's a child actor who grew up to know wtf they're doing. Even if she's on a show where no one knows wtf they're doing. 

 

Baby snatcher was not cool and I wanted Nora to catch her on the bridge and beat her soundly and let her know just exactly whose child it is, Hers! Not a replacement for the ones she lost, a beginning, some may not be ready (per the radio segment she was listening to) but that she was. 

[A Boston Gal]

For me, the episode was about five seconds to long. I would have preferred both John and Kevin at their front door, not knowing what lies on the other side.

 

 

 I loved the last shot of the whole family, and am so grateful they did it (even though it reduced me to a blubbering mess). But,  you have a truly intriguing concept there!  If there is to be a season three, that would've insured I would come back to watch.  What am I saying, I'm in for a third season, no matter what. But, I like your idea. :)

I suppose surviving what should have been a fatal gunshot (and a drowning) would put a person in a forgiving mood. Is that what you mean?

Well, you know what they say:  To err is human, to forgive (and survive three deaths), divine. ;)

Edited December 8, 2015 by A Boston Gal

[garyvp]

I am the only one of my friends who has watched this series, and I watched each episode two or three times. Love the music as well. As strange as I find the show, it absorbed me each week. I fell bonded to many or most of the characters - each has developed so interestingly - we cope or we die. I had difficulty with Kevin until this season...it was great to travel with him. I shall miss Patty. I especially liked Kevin's second stay at the hotel - Alice through the Looking Glass II - and his home coming.... Meggan's "Family is everything" ....it is that simple.

And next year we can look forward to John sorting out his mess.

[lezlers]

I found this episode to be really disturbing.  Probably when it was written, it was about Mexican immigration to the US.  Now, with Syrian refugees, even more troubling re the symbolism.  So those refugees are storming the gates and bring debauchery and bad times with them.  I could  be wrong, but what else should we take from this, if not that?

 

I was pleased to see JT's nakedness, but the whole walking around with a giant hole in his stomach and bleeding out?  I know we are supposed to suspend belief, but I just kept wanting someone to call 911 and render aid.  

 

Good to know that Mary confirmed Matt is not a rapist.  This show, ergh.

 

I just read an interview with the director and he specifically said they don't pull from headlines for the show.  They knew exactly what was going to be in the finale when the season was written. 

[Ronin Jackson]

I just read an interview with the director and he specifically said they don't pull from headlines for the show.  They knew exactly what was going to be in the finale when the season was written. 

 

Are you talking about Lindelof? He is not the director, he's the "showrunner", head of the writer's room. Just pointing that out because there is a credited "director" on each episode and the person who has directed the most episodes of the series so far is Mimi Leder, who is a "she.

[Ronin Jackson]

As far as the theory that Kevin is dead at the end goes, it's a valid interpretation but there is an awful lot of narrative continuity from events he wouldn't know about. Putting together that Meg is now a ring leader of the GR is a stretch. The way John changed after shooting him (obviously brought on by discovering that Kevin was telling the truth about Evie). Tom was still wearing his white GR clothes at the end. Mary was awake. Even the town being in shambles after the GR revolt. That being said, in this universe, I don't think you can say that Kevin being dead automatically means something an afterlife constructed in death could only involve elements he knew about before he was shot. I guess the biggest thing is that there already is an established afterlife in the show-- the hotel-- so the post revolt town he wandered through wounded would have to be a separate one. There could be stages, yes, but that's starting to get a bit convoluted. I guess if there's a season 3 that will confirm or deny that theory, but if there isn't, it's open to viewer interpretation. But Kevin being alive isn't the only thing in the show that doesn't adhere to real world logic.

[Clanstarling]

So the GRs create the fake bomb drama just to storm the gate, a feat they could have done at any time?

 Resolutely storming the gates isn't nearly as dramatic and attention grabbing as a fake bomb, using three "departed" girls for added horror (will they blow up), and having secret GR members strip and storm the gates when the timer wears out. It's showmanship - not a simple statement. 

 

JT singing Homeward Bound was perfect. Perfect song for the show/episode/actor. It was doubly perfect because he didn't sing it pitch perfect. The lyrics were perfect. Okay. I'll stop with the perfect now.

The only choice I'm not sure was good was the last scene between Kevin and John where Kevin was all bygones and forgiveness. It seemed weird because of their respective racial backgrounds. IDK, but there's so much racial baggage in the US that it was hard not to find it paternalistic at best. Mileage will definitely vary, so sorry if I sound like a killjoy.

 I might have gotten a little choked up while JT was choking up through the song. I didn't see the "bygones" in quite the same way. To me it was just that Kevin had gotten over his shit, and was starting a brand new life without baggage from the last one.

 

ETA: The trailer having no bomb was a nice parallel to the dud grenade Meg tossed on the school bus. Well, "nice" isn't a very good descriptor, but I mean that I didn't feel cheated by the reveal that the plan was never to blow up anyone.

 Totally agree.

 

Yeah, I never even saw that connection seeing as I never saw those folks as immigrants. I felt they had every right to travel from one state to another. Now as far as how they behave once they are in that state is a whole other matter. But we are allowed to travel and even permanently move to different states in this country.

 

Except when people lose there ever loving minds like in the case of Hurricane Katrina.

 

This reminded me of that and how those survivors were treated. They incorrectly as far as I'm concerned, were treated like they were refugees and they weren't because they had a country, they were citizens of the USA.

This. As a person who grew up a US military dependent with no home state, my alliance is to the US and not a state. I have encountered those who think I (or anyone else) had no right to move to theirs. I didn't see this as an immigration metaphor either - though I can see how it could be.

 

I loved this season, even if, like Kevin and John, I didn't necessarily understand it. I thought the acting was all superb, and it was never predictable (to me anyway).

[RedheadZombie]

I'm content with the finale.  I'm actually pleased that it ended much like the end of season one - no cliffhanger on who's dead/alive, and the characters having attained some sort of peace.

 

These actors have the ability to just gut me.  Nora and Kevin, of course, but even Laurie had me forgiving her by the end.  CE, who I've only seen playing sinister/powerful/dangerous men, really brings such a vulnerability and hope to Matt.  Even Jill and Tom, whom some of us have criticized acting-wise, really portray the pain and sadness.  Season one Tom having to go under water to scream brought tears to my eyes.  And Jill can really tear up and show such pain.  And both actors were great in the "Garveys at their Best" episode, showing more carefree and positive children.

 

My criticism is probably everything GR and Meg related.  So this is what Meg called "fucking amazing"?  How anti-climactic.  They could have all been gunned down on the spot ........ for a stunt.  What a leader.   When I compare how Nora handled randomly losing her entire young/healthy family, to Meg losing her older mother from natural causes - it just makes me despise Meg all the more.  How proud she was of herself.  And I really resented the implication that it was Meg's wisdom that led Tom back to his family.  She was his rapist!  Yuck.

 

Somehow I'm left with a greater appreciation for John, and a greater dislike for Erika.  I'm not sure why.  John is more sympathetic, and he seems driven by anger and pain.  Erika is colder and detached, and motivated more by keeping up appearances.  I wasn't blown away by Erika's actions of running across the bridge and embracing her child.  Too little, too late.  Her children have been suffering for some time while she pretended that all was well.  I don't know, I consider her the healthier (mentally) of the two parents, therefore more culpable for what happened.  And I still don't care for how she treated Nora when they were going over the questionnaire. 

[BooBear]

 it's open to viewer interpretation. But Kevin being alive isn't the only thing in the show that doesn't adhere to real world logic.

 

Yes, I do think they left it just weird enough that it could go either way. If there is a season three we will know Kevin isn't dead. Also strange is that when John finds Kevin, Kevin does not know that John knows his daugher is alive and in  fact has no idea of the events that happened that day, but Kevin acts like he does and isn't particularly scared of John finishing him off.  I think if we have a season three there has to be some explanation as to why there was no back up after the run on the town. Maybe the GR staged a big event a few miles away as a diversion.  GR memembers I think were asking Meg if she was going to go to some event.

 

 

As strange as I find the show, it absorbed me each week. I fell bonded to many or most of the characters - each has developed so interestingly - we cope or we die. I had difficulty with Kevin until this season...it was great to travel with him. I shall miss Patty.

 

Agreed. Even in season one I didn't love the show but was compelled to watch. Then I didn't think I was going to watch this season but I turned in, and even with the Murphy's taking center stage, I was compelled to watch.  I think Kevin was much more  sympathetic this year. I think last year I was constantly being reminded of this suggestion that he either he slept with Amiee or wanted to... and though I never got that from the actor, it was like the show kept saying it.  That irritated me and I think made me think there was something about Kevin that was a douche. This year I just wanted to give him a hug. Also, last year, Laurie not speaking last year made her come off much more of a jerk (maybe that was the point) while the mere act of Amy Brennaman speaking I think assisted her characters sympathy this year.  I also was happy not to have the constant fear of dogs being killed by that nutball that Kevin kept seeing. All those things might have been in the book but they weren't things I wanted to see.

[RedheadZombie]

Something I'm left questioning - didn't Matt have a memory that implies he had sex with Laurie? I've always wondered if that was the true reason she was so ambivalent about her pregnancy. Maybe it was Matt's, or she was unsure.

[represent]

Somehow I'm left with a greater appreciation for John, and a greater dislike for Erika.  I'm not sure why.  John is more sympathetic, and he seems driven by anger and pain.  Erika is colder and detached, and motivated more by keeping up appearances.  I wasn't blown away by Erika's actions of running across the bridge and embracing her child.  Too little, too late.  Her children have been suffering for some time while she pretended that all was well.  I don't know, I consider her the healthier (mentally) of the two parents, therefore more culpable for what happened.  And I still don't care for how she treated Nora when they were going over the questionnaire.

 

Not sure I agree with this,  I didn't find him anymore sympathetic at all.  it was John who was all about keeping up appearances, Erika seemed to be able to call him on his bullshit at least twice. She definitely called the entire town out about how they were NOT spared at the "memorial" service they had for the girls. Detached yes, keeping up appearances, no...

 

Not once did I see  a woman who was more concerned with keeping up appearances while ignoring her children's pain. Evie was fucked up and she wouldn't be the first teenager to dupe her parents and go down a dangerous/wrong path. But I did see a mother who was willing to NOT leave her family unlike Laurie because of how it would affect them in particular Evie. Or so she thought. 

 

I liked the way she and Laurie waved at one another, she's exactly where Laurie has been in season one. It's her turn to leave, just cause she has to. I'm not judging, not on a show like this, there's too much weird shit going on for me judge parents for the parenting skills, wives/girlfriends, husbands... who people think should be strong....not on this show. Healthier, not sure she was since she was suffering and needed to leave. Can't say she was healthier and sure don't chalk her up to being the mean mother who just doesn't love her kids so she wanted to chuck them and leave. I don't think it's that simple especially with her husband beating and burning the shit out of the town whenever he deemed it necessary as a way of dealing with his childhood trauma.

 

She treated Nora the way she deserved to be treated, and visa versa. Nora's tears didn't make me feel any more for her than I felt for Erika. Nora went over to that woman's house to make herself feel good it wasn't some altruistic endeavor.  

 

I felt for both women.

Edited December 9, 2015 by represent

[Pallas]

Re-watched tonight, a little afraid that the beauty might have weathered.  If it did, it was better.  

 

Justin Theroux was extraordinary. Every expression, every choice, was real and original, radiating from his center. My favorite of his tiny takes was the look he gave himself (as if he too were watching) when he choose the Mapleton police uniform. A tiny quirk of recognition and acceptance -- like a man regarding an envelope addressed by a hand that was, he realized, an irrefutable part of him.

 

From start to finish, the character and actor were all-in. No irony, no remove, no more keeping just a little something back to signal, "What the fuck!" and stay detached. No time wasted in frustrated bewilderment.  A "Motherfucker!" here, a "Because its stupid" there, and then forward, right into the fray. Staying present to the person he was addressing, saying "I'm sorry" to Michael for the death of Virgil, and to John, for Virgil's abuse, before going on to say, "I have to speak to your father" and, "Maybe she didn't love you."  His karaoke performance: bringing it all back home. And on his way there, literally picking up the baton from a fallen cop.  The police chief to the fire captain: "Then you come over to my house," written and spoken exactly like a kid to his friend from the neighborhood, with a kid's certainty that he had a house to offer, where his friend would be welcome.

 

The credits list a character, Snake Woman. Of course: the strangely pierced woman who snatched Lily from Nora, mirroring the opening scene of the seasons and the snake that wrapped itself around the newborn -- whose mother, like Nora, also crouched on her hands and knees over the baby, once she'd re-claimed her from the threat.