S09.E12: Hell Bent

[Occasional Hope]

I did think the "Enemy creatures get involuntarily filed into the system" was quite a cool idea.

 

Having a Dalek filed in the matrix with the Timelord uploads seems like a way a hybrid might get created.

[katie9918]

I'll give this episode a 7 out of 10 simply for Missy not being anywhere around. Thank GOD (or substitute your own deities) we were spared THAT.

I'm gonna have to watch this again to articulate my thoughts beyond "... Okay, I'm not even DRINKING yet... What... Man, you're a jerk, he didn't even do anything to you... Oh, gosh, Clara is back.... Boring.... Don't care... Hey, he's pulling a Donna on himself... Yeah, Ten was still more annoying than Twelve... OH MY GOD IT'S RIVER! Yes!!"

Seriously, though, why the fuck did the Doctor allow the President and the High Council go, but not the General? Is it because he was a white guy the last time we saw him and now Doctor Who is bowing to the PC police? The other guy was a great piece of continuity from the 50th, a shame we couldn't keep him longer.

Edited December 6, 2015 by katie9918

[Gulftastic]

Didn't mind. I like the notion of Clara and Ashildr being their own version of The Doctor. I'm sure they'll be back at some point. I can't wait to see how the internet reacts if they do. It's be epic.

 

Anyway, one thing. Ashildr is immortal, but it was established that she only had a finite memory. How does she remember the Doctor billions of years into the future?

[Kromm]

Anyway, one thing. Ashildr is immortal, but it was established that she only had a finite memory. How does she remember the Doctor billions of years into the future?

Fan wank part 1: Just because we saw her at the end of time waiting for the Doctor without any obvious transportation doesn't mean she got there the hard way. She had quite a long time to learn how to time travel (perhaps through other methods--thus her still being unfamiliar with the Tardis). 

 

Fan wank part 2: Perhaps she's improved methods of record storage beyond those paper journals and carries a digital recording device she plays back.

 

Fan wank part 3: The Doctor is the key to her existence, ergo if there's anything she'd cue herself up on it would be him.

[truther]

Gallifrey never fails to disappoint. It's all so thinly imagined.

The Time Lords are always so mundane. Each of them thousands of years old, with universe-spanning, God-like power, and yet they seem so petty minded, parochial, and slow-witted.

Another thing I hate is the grandiose Doctor, that adolescent power fantasy figure who has only to gesture or speak to make the universe itself tremble.

I like him so much better as an otherwise ordinary Time Lord, hyper-intelligent firstly because all of his race are so, and secondly because, unlike most Time Lords, he leaves Gallifrey to explore the universe, acquiring knowledge and wisdom as he does so. Special only because he's gone rogue, and not because he's a messiah figure even to other Time Lords.

This is very well put.  The machinations and politicking of high councils is also a trope of bad sci-fi -- the Star Wars prequels, the Matrix sequels, this episode, etc.  I think it says more about the world these show producers inhabit than about what's interesting for the average viewer to watch.  

 

On an unrelated note, I don't understand the timeline here.  Clara was "killed" on Trap Street during Gallfrey's attempt to abduct the Doctor to find out what he knows about the hybrid.  Then after she dies, the Doctor admits he doesn't actually know anything, he's just pretending so that Gallifrey would fall for his ruse and give him access to the power he needs to bring Clara back from the dead.  But if she was only killed because the Doctor was presumed to know about the hybrid . . . . isn't this sequence backwards? 

[John Potts]

The more I think about this, the more I disliked it! Remember when Christopher Eccleston went "Just this once, everyone lives!"? Now it's more, "For once, could you let somebody ****ing die!?*" It reminds me of The West Wing where President Bartlet resigns and the  Republican Speaker takes over. When challenged by Josh, his counterpart goes, "You think we're going to make capital over the President's act of political self sacrifice? We'd get crucified! But the thing about self sacrifice... it generally involves a certain degree of sacrifice!" It's like Moffat wants to have the angst but not have it actually mean anything.

 

tankgirl73 And a black woman, no less, which definitely opens the door to "ethnic" actors playing the doctor in the future!

 

Well, Missy/The Master's sex change opened the door to a female Doctor, but I'd say a black Doctor is more likely to be cast than a female one.

 

* Or rather, somebody young female & pretty. Plenty of people died in Ashildr's first episode

[tv-talk]

Gallifrey never fails to disappoint. It's all so thinly imagined.

The Time Lords are always so mundane. Each of them thousands of years old, with universe-spanning, God-like power, and yet they seem so petty minded, parochial, and slow-witted.

 

 

So true! I cringe every time they go to Gallifrey only to find it's some version of medieval english countryside or in this case peasantry in a desert. Part of the mystique of the Time Lords was not knowing them too well imo.  The scenes from the Time War are particularly bad with the most advanced society in all of time and space looking like nothing more than a poor rural village being raided by Vikings in 9th century.

[Kromm]

So true! I cringe every time they go to Gallifrey only to find it's some version of medieval english countryside or in this case peasantry in a desert. Part of the mystique of the Time Lords was not knowing them too well imo.  The scenes from the Time War are particularly bad with the most advanced society in all of time and space looking like nothing more than a poor rural village being raided by Vikings in 9th century.

Inevitably you get into the trap that if you want to use Gallifrey at ALL it's going to come off as less than people expect. There's no preventing that.

 

What they CAN prevent, and Moffat now especially should be publicly shamed and beaten with verbal sticks over this, is how incompetent they came off. How Bozoish. Even if we accept the premise that The Doctor (and I guess The Master) is extraordinary even among them--that he's not just smart compared to humans but also his own race--that doesn't mean they need to come off like idiots.  If they're ever used again something, somehow, has to be done to make them seem grand rather than puny.

[Ringthane]

Way back in 2008, we watched as another incarnation of the Doctor did and said the following:

 

 

(In anger, The Doctor points a gun at General Cobb's head, then pulls it away and addresses everyone following his belief that Jenny is dead)
The Doctor: (to everyone): I never would. Have you got that? I never would. When you start this world of Humans and Hath you remember to make the foundations of this society, a man that never would.

 

(from: http://www.tv.com/shows/doctor-who-2005/the-doctors-daughter-1198118/ )

 

And that was when a man killed what was technically his daughter.  Not his special snowflake, not the Impossible Bore (sorry, Girl), not the most special person in the Universe.  His daughter.

 

Mr. Moffat, please spend a day watching the show you claim to love.  It's on DVD, it's on Blu-Ray, it's even on Netflix streaming.  Spend a day watching this little show called Doctor Who, and then do one more piece of writing.  Write up your resignation letter, send it to your bosses, and then go back to working on the show you obviously want to work on - Sherlock.  Let someone else play in the wonderful, glorious sandbox that is Doctor Who.

 

Because you've used up all the love and admiration you built up from the admittedly wonderful Coupling.  You've taken all the goodwill you built up with the 50th anniversary story and flushed it down the nearest toilet. 

 

The Doctor that was so happy when "Everybody lives", and the Doctors that figured out how to save Gallifrey instead of burn it, are the same Doctor as the one that shot a Time Lord and forced him to regenerate?  I don't think so.  There's 51 years of characterization built up about the Doctor, Mr. Moffat.  If you can't get it right after 51 years, please step aside and let someone else try.

[Ringthane]

So true! I cringe every time they go to Gallifrey only to find it's some version of medieval english countryside or in this case peasantry in a desert. Part of the mystique of the Time Lords was not knowing them too well imo.  The scenes from the Time War are particularly bad with the most advanced society in all of time and space looking like nothing more than a poor rural village being raided by Vikings in 9th century.

 

What's worse is that we say a poor rural village being raided by Vikings in 9th century (or something very like it) in "The Girl Who Died", and they came off better than Gallifrey did here.  And they didn't have millenia of knowledge and technology backing them up either.  Just the Doctor.

 

The only good thing about the episode was the stuff with the Doctor at the beginning in the barn, and then with the white TARDIS.  I didn't realize how much I missed that look until this episode.  I know dark and flashy is the style nowadays, but man, did that old console room look good.  I could see Capaldi totally rocking that look.  Although I'm not sure if the default console design should be the one Hartnell had.  Unless that was another Type 40.  Or was that just the set from "An Adventure in Time and Space"?  I'm not sure if they kept it.

 

And as someone else said, the original console was pale green, because pale green looks more white in old black and white TV than actual white.

[Lokiberry]

And, I agree with all this, but the core of this story (if we're going to call it that) is that Clara drove the Doctor insane. She caused him to have a psychotic break, like when the Master looked into the Time Thingy and went mad. Now that all memories of Clara have been removed he should go back to being the person he was before.

 

Clara was a mental illness, but now the Doctor has recovered.

[Ringthane]

And, I agree with all this, but the core of this story (if we're going to call it that) is that Clara drove the Doctor insane. She caused him to have a psychotic break, like when the Master looked into the Time Thingy and went mad. Now that all memories of Clara have been removed he should go back to being the person he was before.

 

Clara was a mental illness, but now the Doctor has recovered.

 

I have to wonder what Jenna Coleman thinks of that.  She just spent the last two or three years playing the worst thing to happen to the Doctor in 51 years of stories.  She must just be thrilled.

[Chaos Theory]

Wow am I in the minority who thought the episode was awesome? Then again am in on the minority who thinks Dictir Who is awesome?

[Primetimer]

Just because Season 9 sometimes seemed like the old-school serial, we wouldn't advise pouring milk on it.

Read the story

[kminfinity]

Well that was just awful.  The few things I liked were overwhelmed by too much mess and melodrama. It didn’t even make timey-wimey sense, let alone any other kind of sense.

 

Echoing a lot of posts above that summed up the many reasons I disliked this episode:

 

• The whole sturm-und-drang of the Doctor-Clara relationship just never worked for me.  I was a Ten fan DESPITE some of the megalomaniacal melodrama – I could overlook even the stuff with Special Snowflake Rose because at least she and Ten seemed to have SOME common sense and boundaries.  I get that his arrogance and refusal to face loss and consequences are key character flaws for The Doctor, and many plots and stories have examined those flaws well.  Having Doctor Twelve acknowledge he’s crossed his own lines and broken his own rules while he keeps doing it goes beyond the Doctor’s normal arrogance and essential character to the point he's become a caricature. 

 

• I never thought I’d miss #11 – too young, not enough gravitas for my taste.  But (the writing for) Capaldi is just too far in the other direction.  The bitterness and darkness are too OTT. 

 

• Big agree that the Gallifrey material was (as usual) confusing.  And weaker than usual.  I could list a half dozen WTF moments.  This one stands out for me:  The Doctor gives the throwaway line that it ‘doesn’t matter’ how Gallifrey returned.  Sorry, that little cheat didn’t work for me.

 

• I’m just horrified that The Doctor used A GUN to shoot an ALLY.  For shame.

 

• So this whole season long plot is driven by the problem of the Hybrid?  And the Hybrid is the COMBO of The Doctor and Clara?  And Clara has pushed The Doctor into un-Doctor-like behavior?  Nope.  Doesn’t work for me.  We’ve never been given any coherent reason why his obsession with Clara is so special and so deeply flawed that he would go so dark by being with her. 

 

• I’m still struggling with the idea that The Mire medical kit can create immortality.  Really?  So Moffat decides the season long plot needs an immortal as the Hybrid red herring (or maybe the actual Hybrid?  Are we sure we know yet?) and with one of the most ridiculous handwavey actions in the whole 50+ years of Dr. Who suddenly we have immortal Lady Me. 

 

• Quote by John Potts 

 

It's like Moffat wants to have the angst but not have it actually mean anything.

  Clapping!

[truther]

Well that was just awful.  

 

• I’m just horrified that The Doctor used A GUN to shoot an ALLY.  For shame.

 

• So this whole season long plot is driven by the problem of the Hybrid?  And the Hybrid is the COMBO of The Doctor and Clara?  And Clara has pushed The Doctor into un-Doctor-like behavior?  Nope.  Doesn’t work for me.  We’ve never been given any coherent reason why his obsession with Clara is so special and so deeply flawed that he would go so dark by being with her. 

Yep.  The explanation that he used the gun to show how desperate he was to save Clara just isn't good enough.  First of all, no he wouldn't do that, as Ringthane so adeptly noted.  And second, even if he's willing to break such a cardinal rule here, it's NEVER been explained why Clara is so deserving of that astonishingly over-the-top effort.  "Because Clara" isn't a good enough justification to do things that make no sense either within the context of Doctor Who or just more generally in the context of good storytelling.  Maybe he should start raping children Because Clara, or possibly torturing small animals Because Clara.  I guess that works if all you're going for is angsty scene chewing rather than a long-running show that thoughtful people want to watch.  

[ottoDbusdriver]

• Big agree that the Gallifrey material was (as usual) confusing.  And weaker than usual.  I could list a half dozen WTF moments.  This one stands out for me:  The Doctor gives the throwaway line that it ‘doesn’t matter’ how Gallifrey returned.  Sorry, that little cheat didn’t work for me.

 

Totally agree @kminfinity -- because it kind of does matter how they returned to the regular universe, and how they ended up near the end of all time.  Did they return to the same physical location around the extremely bright sun Gallifrey was originally orbiting or just show up around any old star ? And that apparently so little time has progressed from when they returned from the pocket universe/wherever Gallifrey was that everyone the Doctor knew during the Time War is still alive.

 

How did the Gallifreyans know to contact Me/Ashildr -- and what did they do to blackmail her into cooperating with them ?  Why didn't they just send someone in a Tardis to contact The Doctor and ask him to stop by as they had some questions vs. the convoluted Rube Goldberg-like plan that ended up killing Clara (only really not so much) with the quantum shade.

 

And the excuse the Gallifreyans had to go to the extreme effort to corral the Doctor and put him through 4 and a half billion years in the confession dial with the excuse that 'oh, he could have left at any time if he just told us what we needed' was just bullshit.

[Shimmergloom]

I loved Clara.  But I wish the end had been the Doctor realizing that he couldn't change history and him and Clara going back to that moment where she died, to right the timeline.

 

And then the stuff in the diner would have just been with one of the other Clara's, that he just went to spend some time with, because he misses his Clara.

[HouseofBeck]

I had the same thought. It was no worse than if the general had just laid down for a short nap. I figured it proximity to home must make the difference.

 

I have a flashback to the Romana years, whether overtly implied on the show or Terrence Dicks filled it in in the novelizations, that the Doctor simply never got far enough in his schooling to learn how to regenerate easily before he got fed up with Time Lord lethargy and stole a Tardis and fled. And that Romana was more intelligent than he was, at least theoretically and collegiately. :)

 

 

I'm pretty sure they are setting us up for a "The Doctor is a woman". Moffat is trying to hard to be edgy and pointing out how easily the Time Lords can change gender.

Ashildr and Clara fly off in a Tardis that they apparently know how to operate. After all these years, they are still getting defective Tardis's with broken Chameleon circuits. Apparently no one has informed the manufacturer. 

I still hope it's a different show, then, because having a woman undertake this legacy is a commendable concept--but how much better would it be to have a wholly new Time Lordy character to establish her own storyline and reasons? Not simply a genderlifted Lady Doctor, or Clara Who, but...

I don't know. Baby steps, right?

For the Tardis, did he say it was the old Tardis workshop, or just the Tardis workshop? Sound quality once again struck. Old workshop would imply issues with Type 40s in general, if that's what that really was.

I remember thinking that I hope his Tardis can sense him using a Tardis and come get him!

 

 

new sonic screwdriver looks badass.  i never wanted one before.....but now i do, lol.

Oh yeah. :)

  

.

Just wanted to say a giant YES to your post.

  

Inevitably you get into the trap that if you want to use Gallifrey at ALL it's going to come off as less than people expect. There's no preventing that.

 

What they CAN prevent, and Moffat now especially should be publicly shamed and beaten with verbal sticks over this, is how incompetent they came off. How Bozoish. Even if we accept the premise that The Doctor (and I guess The Master) is extraordinary even among them--that he's not just smart compared to humans but also his own race--that doesn't mean they need to come off like idiots.  If they're ever used again something, somehow, has to be done to make them seem grand rather than puny.

 

I tend to agree. I enjoyed Tom Baker's Gallifrey episodes because he carried them so well despite the budget! Now we've got budget galore and...yeah. I love me some Capaldi, so to me it's still down to the writing. Yeesh, Rassilon, I never knew ye.

 

Wow am I in the minority who thought the episode was awesome? Then again am in on the minority who thinks Dictir Who is awesome?

Even with all of the above, you aren't. Doctor Who is one of those unique shows that has such a legacy of fans that the show feels very personal to us, whether or not we have a "right" to that feeling. Not speaking for everyone here: We WANT to love and enjoy it like we always had. I go into each ep expecting to have a good time. When I'm saying "WTF is going on" in the opening and not in a good way, it shakes me out of the willing suspension of disbelief. And I liked this season better than the last one...or I had been. Lot of disappointment. And for me, it's because of the writing and direction.

[alrightokay]

Wow am I in the minority who thought the episode was awesome? Then again am in on the minority who thinks Dictir Who is awesome?

 

You are not alone!   (Quoting the Face of Boe and "Utopia" there.)  I still love this show, even though it can be frustrating.  What I've come to accept is that Doctor Who the show is also constantly regenerating--there's no one way it has to be.  There are Doctors and companions and stories you will love and some you will not, but all this time it's always been about figuring out what makes us "bigger on the inside."  Sometimes that means characters doing things they would ordinarily never do.

 

At one point in "Hell Bent," Twelve outright says that he's tired of being "The Doctor," tired of always doing the "right" thing--getting through the torture of the Confession Dial and going to the extremes he did to save Clara showed him (and us) what he's capable of.  He's VERY capable of doing the wrong thing.  But in the end, he learned that that uncharacteristic behavior wasn't just wrong, it was bad--bad for him, bad for Clara, bad for everyone, and he doesn't want to be that way.  So now he can go back to being the Doctor, reaffirmed in what he believes in and stands for.  Yes, there was a huge cost to this lesson (though I thought the regenerated General was pretty cool, myself), but now the Doctor knows himself better than before and won't go to such extremes again.  (I hope!)  Back in "Death in Heaven," he said that he was just an "idiot" who was constantly "learning."  I think it's good for us to see this--he's not done learning and won't stop learning, and that might inspire us to keep learning as well.

[Peace 47]

Wow am I in the minority who thought the episode was awesome? Then again am in on the minority who thinks Dictir Who is awesome?

I watch this show infrequently (as I've never sat down and given the show my full attention from the start of at least the "new" episodes), but I have a superficial understanding of plot points and story. (In the corners of the Web I inhabit as a Sherlock fan, lots of people watch and love this show, too, and a good friend in real life is a super fan who makes me watch from time to time.) And I wanted to watch this episode because I actually really like Clara and wanted to see her final scenes.

All that said about my non-credentials as a true fan, I thought it was a pretty good episode of television. (I found it really sad, though, which I think is part of the reason I shy away from dedicating myself to the show--I often find it crushingly sad when not finding it confusing as hell.) It was rather beautifully shot (the colors were so vibrant), and the scenes well-acted (Peter and Jenna and that woman who played "Me" were quite skillful in lending emotion to some of the more ... shall I say philosophical? ... lines, like the ruminations on beauty, sadness and loss.) It was a great bit of theater at the beginning when the soldiers/ general/ president all came to call on the Doctor and great when everyone sided with the Doctor against the president. And I know it's generally verboten to embrace given who the Doctor has been, but it seemed that 12 was in love with Clara (and she with him). To know that he endured 4.5 billion years of torture (or whatever portion of that he remembers) to try to save her was quite an act of love. (I was a little confused as to how he knew Gallifrey would be "out of time" near the end of the universe, though, and that if he stayed in the confession dial long enough, he could meet them on the other side.) I do wonder what they said to each other when she said, "People like me and you, we should say things to one another."

I'm not sure how I feel about a memory wipe being preferable to accepting the loss (as someone noted upthread). The Doctor couldn't let Clara go, but is it really preferable in terms of moving on not to remember what you loved about a person? It's easier for sure, and I guess if those good times are gone, there's not necessarily a point to those times bringing sadness, but that was a beautiful speech Clara made about no one being promised tomorrow, but the past was hers, without a right for that to be taken away.

[cardigirl]

I dunno, I'm thinking that maybe I'm not smart enough to enjoy Doctor Who. Thoroughly bewildered by this season and sad. I like PeterCapaldi and I like Jenna Coleman, but I hated what they did with Maisie Williams in this series. I guess I need my story arc and for it to be, if not neatly tied up with a bow, at least addressed. For the first time in 4 seasons, I've half watched this series. It was always appointment TV for me, but now...I DVR and watch on delay and I'm just not that entertained.

That said, I did like the reverse memory wipe, and I loved the scene in the diner. Who knows, maybe we'll see Clara again, maybe not. BUt I don't want to see her unless some other things are going to be explained about her.

I am looking forward to the Christmas special. Hope it doesn't ruin River Song for me.

[Gentian root]

I loved Clara. But I wish the end had been the Doctor realizing that he couldn't change history and him and Clara going back to that moment where she died, to right the timeline.

And then the stuff in the diner would have just been with one of the other Clara's, that he just went to spend some time with, because he misses his Clara.

. And she would serve him a lovely perfect soufflé.

[Chaos Theory]

The funny thing is as endings for companions go I actually liked this one. I am not going to get into where I place Clara on the NewWho Companion ranking because that is a discussion for another board but as for endings I did rather like this. Although I liked the Raven ending because it fit with Clara's personality and the storyline hit the season of Clara's increasing death wish. I liked the fact that she believed that she was being clever like The Doctor and in a way she was but she wasn't The Doctor and didn't have his experience and luck.

However I also like that the Doctor's guilt and obsession over getting Clara back would cause him to break his own rules. It has been said my many and countless times that he is someone who should never be alone and he was alone for a couple million years so his obsession over Clara festered. He is someone who would break time if his obsessions were allowed to fester.

I think I liked Clara's ending because it was ultimately her choice. She chose to go back. No one made it for her. She would travel around with Me for a little while and then find her death because it is a fixed point in time. It is her choice. She gets to make it.

That is why I like Clara Oswalds death.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[NeenerNeener]

Anybody besides me going to have a tough time not thinking of Maisie Williams as Lady Me instead of Arya Stark when GoT comes back?

When I first saw her in the promos for this season I thought I would have the opposite problem. Well done, Maisie.

 

 

I wonder if Emilia Clarke or Sophie Turner have enough time in their schedules to do GoT and be the next NuWho companion.

Edited December 6, 2015 by NeenerNeener

[pcta]

Another thing, in the nuWho, all of the Doctors have become obsessed with their companions. I get how Clara was special but so was Rose and she did keep coming back. And, man, it seemed like Rory and Amy were never going to go away and with River being their child, they really haven't completely gone; there's their legacy.

 

It still doesn't seem necessary to have The Doctor obsess over one companion when he's obsessed over many. Maybe they should have all popped back in and he could have dealt with Donna and his obsession. An intervention of sorts.

My feeling this story arc has been this is Moffat giving a raspberry to Davies. "See my companion is more important to the Doctor than yours. My Doctor is willing to destroy space and time, to kill for his. Your Doctor only gave a wonderful (and less histrionic) portrayal of deep hurt." To me this season was show runner hubris played out by the Doctor.

[Chaos Theory]

My feeling this story arc has been this is Moffat giving a raspberry to Davies. "See my companion is more important to the Doctor than yours. My Doctor is willing to destroy space and time, to kill for his. Your Doctor only gave a wonderful (and less histrionic) portrayal of deep hurt." To me this season was show runner hubris played out by the Doctor.

I know people are going to disagree with me but i like that NuWho wants to keep his companions around. He doesn't just drop them off wherever when they become inconvient. I know it's not actually that simple but I why didn't he go back for Sarah Jones or take her with him. NuWho would have. It really come down to which version you prefer the version who wants the companions around or the ones that tolerate them being there because he needs someone to be.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[snarktini]

After the Christmas special, I'm out. Removing a season pass is a difficult, highly unusual step for me after getting invested, but I'm not enjoying it anymore. The past two seasons have been a slog. Beyond the stories they're telling not appealing, I've never warmed up to 12 or Capaldi. I'll check back in with the next Doctor.

 

Recent companions have been The Most Important Person In The Universe. Could we get someone a little more ordinary next time? Rose and Martha became world-changing, but at least they grew into that role. On the other hand, Amy (who I liked very much) and Clara were both DESTINED to be TMIPITU. Meh.

[Llywela]

My feeling this story arc has been this is Moffat giving a raspberry to Davies. "See my companion is more important to the Doctor than yours. My Doctor is willing to destroy space and time, to kill for his. Your Doctor only gave a wonderful (and less histrionic) portrayal of deep hurt." To me this season was show runner hubris played out by the Doctor.

Clara has felt like companion one-upmanship to me from the start, and I've found that bothersome from the start. It has felt like a competition - at every turn, she has to trump every companion the Doctor has ever had, and it shouldn't be like that. From day one she came across as a 12-year-old's checklist of desirable traits in his Ideal Doctor Who Companion, rather than a fully fleshed character in her own right, and her creator has given her every authorial advantage he could think of in an increasingly desperate effort to have her win a competition that doesn't exist. There was a hint of it about Amy, too, interweaving her into the Doctor's life as his 'family', but with Clara it's been taken to the nth extreme. It's felt at times as if Moffat has looked back at legendary characters like Sarah or the Brigadier and has tried to build that same kind of legendary status into his own characters, without recognising that legendary status isn't something that can be bestowed, it's something that has to happen organically. No one set out to create a legend when they created Sarah or the Brigadier. They were just two more characters among the many that had been on the show. Sarah became a legend purely because the fans took her to their hearts so - it happened naturally, thanks largely to the actress and the chemistry she had with her co-stars - that isn't something that can be manufactured. And the Brigadier achieved legendary status the hard way, by putting in the hard graft as a guest and recurring character over 20 years of the show - it wasn't planned, it just happened. But it has felt for a few years now as if Moffat has looked back on characters like that and tried to write that kind of status into his own characters - making Amy the Doctor's mother-in-law, something no other companion could claim, and then Clara...well. He's tried to interweave her into the very fabric of the show, has inserted her into the timeline of every single Doctor there has ever been, has tried to make it so that she crafted the Doctor into the man he is by encountering him as a child, has made her the most specialist snowflake ever to sparkle, the woman so important to the Doctor that he'd abandon every principle he's ever held, change his very nature, the woman he would kill for. It all sounds very impressive, on paper. But it feels false. Artificial. It is grossly out of character for the Doctor, whose personality had to be warped to achieve the desired effect. And none of it came from who Clara was as a person - she could have been anyone. In fact, she has been anyone, a chameleon character who became whatever the story needed her to be, instead of a character who had a personality clearly defined up-front to drive and determine her actions and reactions. All of that specialness was placed on her externally, none of it grew organically from her character. When I start thinking of a character more in terms of the way they're written, it's usually an indication that they're not being written all that well. And with Clara, all I can see is the writing, not the character. I can see the joins. I can see the desperate desire to graft super-human importance onto this not particularly special character. And the more they try to sell it, the less I believe it. It just annoys me because it undermines every other relationship he's ever had, and for what? Once you start down this over-the-top road, it becomes a self-defeating spiral.

 

I know people are going to disagree with me but i like that NuWho wants to keep his companions around. He doesn't just drop them off wherever when they become inconvient. I know it's not actually that simple but I why didn't he go back for Sarah Jones or take her with him. NuWho would have. It really come down to which version you prefer the version who wants the companions around or the ones that tolerate them being there because he needs someone to be.

Who is Sarah Jones? The Doctor has never travelled with a Sarah Jones. He travelled with a Sarah Jane Smith, who was his best friend through two incarnations. And the fact that you talk about her and companions like her as having been 'dropped off because they were inconvenient' or 'merely tolerated because he needs them' rather than wanting them to be around, makes clear that you don't actually know the characters you are talking about, or the relationships they had with the Doctor. The Classic Doctors never, ever had companions they merely 'tolerated being there because they needed someone to be', because the Classic Doctors didn't 'need' to have companions to keep them on the straight and narrow. They had companions with them because they enjoyed having company on their travels - and always wanted to keep them around, but understood that life would eventually take them in different directions. When they went their separate ways, they never went back because they were always looking forward (and because they couldn't always steer the TARDIS). The Doctor didn't drop Sarah off because she was inconvenient. He dropped her off because he wasn't allowed to take her to Gallifrey and thought it would be best (i.e. safer for her) not to force the issue by taking her anyway - and he never went back because he knew it was time to move on and let her get on with her life, because he needed to cut his ties with that particular time and place. They had a fantastic relationship while it lasted and the fact that it wasn't a relationship based on mutual obsession and hyperbole doesn't make it somehow less than one that is. When the Fourth Doctor thought that Sarah and Harry had been killed in Genesis of the Daleks he was absolutely devastated, but he knew better than to try to rip time apart to undo it. He sucked it up and got on with the job and grieved quietly along the way. It was a healthier relationship, and I had a hell of a lot more respect for that Doctor than I do for this one. This is exactly what I'm talking about above - this one twisted, unhealthy, obsessive relationship being presented as a gold standard and thus undermining all the more normal, healthier relationships that preceded it, as if they meant nothing. It's disrespectful of the show's past and warps the show's present.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Llywela

[HauntedBathroom]

Way back in 2008, we watched as another incarnation of the Doctor did and said the following:

 

 

(from: http://www.tv.com/shows/doctor-who-2005/the-doctors-daughter-1198118/ )

 

And that was when a man killed what was technically his daughter.  Not his special snowflake, not the Impossible Bore (sorry, Girl), not the most special person in the Universe.  His daughter.

 

Mr. Moffat, please spend a day watching the show you claim to love.  It's on DVD, it's on Blu-Ray, it's even on Netflix streaming.  Spend a day watching this little show called Doctor Who, and then do one more piece of writing.  Write up your resignation letter, send it to your bosses, and then go back to working on the show you obviously want to work on - Sherlock.  Let someone else play in the wonderful, glorious sandbox that is Doctor Who.

 

The thing is, that episode was a massive sack of shit, so I'm delighted it appears to have been forgotten. it's also another example of Tens massive hypocracy, because the Doctor has always been the man who would. He has killed frequenly and often over the course of the series. Not for fun, not to jump a queue, but there's been blood on his hands from the day that he and Ian dragged a mutant from its life support machine on Skaro.

 

They weren't alluding to the half-human thing so much as well... I know the last post I responded to was about Moffat "trolling" something and I debated it, but it kind of fits here. Or maybe "toying" is a better word.  This was Moffat fucking around with a reference to tease people.  And not "tease" as in "make them anticipate something coming" but "tease" in the more traditional "joke about at their expense" way. People moan and groan about the changes in the Doctor and his backstory and this could just be mocking that grousing.

The regen we saw man to woman might also just be another case of teasing/mocking people.  Him showing it could really be a middle finger at Net attitudes just as easily as any kind of actual hint.

I agree that Moffat did this just to make a point. Missy's appearance had people saying "Well, the Master's always stolen other peoples bodies, he just stole a womans this time", so here he had a Time Lord regenerated on screen from male to female, with everyone treating it as normal. The only way Ste.Mo could have made his point clearer would be if a subtitle appeared saying "TIMELORDS CAN CHANGE SEX DURING REGENERATION. THIS IS CANON".

 

Do I think the next Doctor will be a woman? No idea, because I think Capaldi will outlast Moffat, so it depends on the feelings of the next showrunner. But I do think Moffat's done everything he can to smoothe the way for this change to happen.

Edited December 6, 2015 by HauntedBathroom

[pcta]

Do I think the next Doctor will be a woman? No idea, because I think Capaldi will outlast Moffat, so it depends on the feelings of the next showrunner.

Funny I was thinking Moffat might be the last show runner.

[whoknowswho]

I have a question--Don't judge because I've never watched old Doctor Who...but--I thought humans couldn't drive a TARDIS- River could because she is in fact Time Lady (with regenerations all used up though)- but I always thought the only one who could drive a TARDIS was another Time Lord or Lady? Am I off here or what?

I liked the episode until about 1/2 way through- when the Doctor who doesn't kill wantonly just shot another Time Lord- even if he had it coming---that doesn't sit well with me. Then the whole Clara crap- the love and all, just ugh. I wanted her forever gone. Of course Moffat couldn't leave her dead, special snowflake that she is...

[ganesh]

Actually, you need six people to pilot the TARDIS correctly. They showed it when Ten and company dragged earth around. Rose's mother had to stand quietly and not touch anything. 

 

I actually like that new Who does get into the companion's families and lives. I miss the aspect of ordinary people learning that they can be brave and do good things with encouragement from the Doctor. That's why Donna was so great. As much as I liked Doctor Donna, she was brave before that. Martha was an engaging competent person in her own right who (heh) spent some time with the Doctor and then went on her own to have a good life and career. 

It seems over the last 3 series *everything* has to be bigger bigger bigger. Clara probably would have been fine if she was a school teacher who traveled with the Doctor for a while, but then decided to go back and live life. 

I'd like to see the show get back to that. I'd also like to shake off the tragic endings for the characters. I feel like worn out from Clara. 

[alrightokay]

I agree that Moffat did this just to make a point. Missy's appearance had people saying "Well, the Master's always stolen other peoples bodies, he just stole a womans this time", so here he had a Time Lord regenerated on screen from male to female, with everyone treating it as normal. The only way Ste.Mo could have made his point clearer would be if a subtitle appeared saying "TIMELORDS CAN CHANGE SEX DURING REGENERATION. THIS IS CANON".

 

Do I think the next Doctor will be a woman? No idea, because I think Capaldi will outlast Moffat, so it depends on the feelings of the next showrunner. But I do think Moffat's done everything he can to smoothe the way for this change to happen.

 

I really think Moffat's been in a no-win situation with this issue.  For years, some parts of fandom and the media have been hounding him for a female Doctor, railing at his sexism, and clamoring for more diversity on the show (which I'm totally excited to see, though I don't want Capaldi to go for a while!).  On the other hand, you have longtime fans who become furious every time Moffat doesn't stay true to OldWho and takes things in a new direction.  How can Moffat be a creative show runner implementing an overall vision, when he's got so many people to please?  So I think he's trying to please everyone (and himself) by going "the long way round"--he's planting seeds to make it possible to bring in a female Doctor or a Doctor of color (or both!).  At the same time, he's trying to give Clara agency here that people have complained that Donna and River didn't get in their stories.  And all along, he's trying to move the Doctor (and Doctor Who) forward, by giving us new ways of looking at the Doctor and understanding him.  If the Doctor weren't so complex, if there weren't still some mystery to delve into about him, would he be as compelling a character?  I get that "all mystery, all angst, all the time!" gets tiring, and it's great to just have FUN (and the Christmas Special does look like fun).  But I think I wouldn't care about the Doctor as much if he were simply the confident hero all the time.  Yes, some of the stories could be better, but given how hard it is to please everyone--fans of OldWho, fans of NewWho, shippers, non-shippers, the BBC, the general public, the critics, himself, etc.-- I think Moffat's doing the best he can.

[Llywela]

I have a question--Don't judge because I've never watched old Doctor Who...but--I thought humans couldn't drive a TARDIS- River could because she is in fact Time Lady (with regenerations all used up though)- but I always thought the only one who could drive a TARDIS was another Time Lord or Lady? Am I off here or what?

Well, a good number of human companions have been able to handle parts of the controls, ever since Steven Taylor way back in 1965 - he was a space pilot from the future, so it made sense that he'd be interested in the TARDIS controls and would learn to operate some of them. A good number of companions have had cursory knowledge of TARDIS controls, just from watching the Doctor and helping him - even Jamie, who came from the 1740s, was capable of learning a few basic controls to help out. Romana, of course, was an excellent TARDIS pilot, but she was a Time Lady (with better qualifications than the Doctor, and a keen interest in reading the manual to ensure her driving was technically correct). Adric, who was an alien from another planet and also a child genius, could land the TARDIS on a sixpence, having been taught the basics of its operation by the Doctor and Romana. Tegan Jovanka, a humble airline stewardess from the '80s, had a jolly good go at flying the TARDIS in some of her early adventures - she got hold of the manual, much like Ashildr here, and studied it to figure out what to do, was jubilant at her success...and then crestfallen to learn that the course was already pre-set, so she hadn't actually flown it after all. So there is precedent for companions being able to manage the basics of TARDIS operation and gaining rudimentary understanding of the more basic flight controls - but there's a huge difference between that and two humans running off with a TARDIS of their own and no Time Lord supervision whatsoever. That just seems like a recipe for disaster - especially given the track record of both characters involved. They might be able to figure out the basics of its operation, especially since Clara has been learning from the Doctor, but they'd never grasp the full nuances and complexities involved - it took the Doctor several lifetimes to get it down pat.

 

Actually, you need six people to pilot the TARDIS correctly. They showed it when Ten and company dragged earth around. Rose's mother had to stand quietly and not touch anything. 

 

I actually like that new Who does get into the companion's families and lives. I miss the aspect of ordinary people learning that they can be brave and do good things with encouragement from the Doctor. That's why Donna was so great. As much as I liked Doctor Donna, she was brave before that. Martha was an engaging competent person in her own right who (heh) spent some time with the Doctor and then went on her own to have a good life and career. 

It seems over the last 3 series *everything* has to be bigger bigger bigger. Clara probably would have been fine if she was a school teacher who traveled with the Doctor for a while, but then decided to go back and live life. 

I'd like to see the show get back to that. I'd also like to shake off the tragic endings for the characters. I feel like worn out from Clara. 

The 'six people to fly a TARDIS correctly' thing only comes from that single story and I'm not convinced by it, personally. It doesn't jibe with anything else we've ever seen. It just looked and sounded good in that one story.

 

I also like that new Who gets into the companions' lives and families - RTD's Who did, anyway. Moffat's not so much, although he does pay lip service to the idea. It isn't completely new to New Who, though - there were aspects of it at times in the classic show.

 

Agreed that Clara would have been fine if she was a school teacher with a clearly defined personality who travelled with the Doctor and learned and grew from that experience and then took that experience back to her life while he moved on. I'd have enjoyed that story far more than all this increasingly hysterical bombast. I'm tired of having 'epic' story arcs grafted onto the companions, getting in the way of being able to explore them just as people.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Llywela

[Kromm]

Funny I was thinking Moffat might be the last show runner.

Impossible.

Even though they don't press it to the 22 per year that an American production would, this is still too big a cash cow for the BBC for them to just abandon it just because Moffat might leave. They sell this show all around the world and won't easily give that up.

[NeenerNeener]

Before I forget...the scene where the Doctor goes back and saves Clara right before the Raven hits her had yellow and red auras like the few times I've seen 3-D effects attempted on television. Was it supposed to be 3-D like the 50th anniversary episode?

[ganesh]

There were some good Clara episodes, but that's because they were 'regular' stories. When *everything* is a Thing, it wears out. 

I'd like a new companion a little bit older. 

[call me ishmael]

I'm not sure yet what i think about this episode but i do think it had some interesting ideas in it.

First, i took the notion of the Doctor and Clara as being the hybrid to be precisely a statement that she wasn't the greatest companion of all time. That was Ashildr's point about it being Missy who set them up. Clara was always a trap for the Doctor (perhaps because he was so intrigued after Ostwin) and Missy almost succeeded in turning the Doctor into another Master. In some ways Ashildr saved him which gives a new meaning to her promise to make sure she would clean up his messes when he left (and that leaving was a major theme of the season).

Second, although i too was thrown by the use of the gun, the Doctor did make sure he knew how many regenerations the General had left before he shot him. He wasn't killing him but forcing him to become a distraction by regenerating. Had he killed the guy after Jenny he would have stayed dead. And as to why the Doctor saved kept the general and not the Council the general had blocked Rassilon when he was trying to kill the Doctor by eliminating all of his regenerations (that question about how many regenerations the Doctor had was the linked opposite to the Doctor's question to the general since Rassilon meant to be sure he eliminated all of them).

Did anyone else think, when they came across the Dalek saying "exterminate me" that that might be Missy? It seemed like a throwback to when Missy trapped Clara in a dalek and also wasn't Missy's final scene in that episode an effort to convince the daleks that she knew how to help them against the Time Lords? Breaking into the matrix would do that.

[Terrafamilia]

"destroying a billion hearts and stand in the ruins of Gallifrey"

The Doctor (and Clara I suppose) ended up doing that. The doctor calculatedly got himself killed billions of times in the dial for the sake of his long con to bring Clara back and they did run off to the ruins of Gallifrey and the meeting with Ashildr.

 

I don't exactly dislike Clara but I certainly dislike what they've done to her, and by extension the Doctor. When the Doctor was going on about wiping Clara's memories of him (what would that have accomplished anyway, how would that have stopped any fracturing of all of Time? Or am I missing something?) instead of pleading 'oh, please don't do this' I wanted Clara to read him the riot act with a 'how dare you even think about doing this'. That she turned on a dime and decided to go flitting throughout all time and space on the long way around back to Gallifrey was just the arsenic on the cake.

[Kromm]

Did anyone else think, when they came across the Dalek saying "exterminate me" that that might be Missy? It seemed like a throwback to when Missy trapped Clara in a dalek and also wasn't Missy's final scene in that episode an effort to convince the daleks that she knew how to help them against the Time Lords? Breaking into the matrix would do that.

Nah, sorry. There's no rationale to leave a breadcrumb like that in that place. We're not early in a season--we're at the end. It would have to be picked up in the Christmas special to be of any use.  I mean when this show drops breadcrumb, they're usually more the size of entire loaves anyway. This would be TOO subtle, and too badly timed.

[Llywela]

When the Doctor was going on about wiping Clara's memories of him (what would that have accomplished anyway, how would that have stopped any fracturing of all of Time? Or am I missing something?)

From what the Doctor said, it wouldn't have stopped time fracturing (which presumably remains a risk for as long as Clara remains at large, although that will never be addressed again), he just hoped it would stop the Time Lords from tracking her down wherever he decided to hide her, thus buying him time to come up with another solution. As explanations go, it's full of holes (I'd poke at a few of them, but I'm bored of doing that now) but it's all we were given!

[patchwork]

Well, a good number of human companions have been able to handle parts of the controls, ever since Steven Taylor way back in 1965 - he was a space pilot from the future, so it made sense that he'd be interested in the TARDIS controls and would learn to operate some of them. A good number of companions have had cursory knowledge of TARDIS controls, just from watching the Doctor and helping him - even Jamie, who came from the 1740s, was capable of learning a few basic controls to help out. Romana, of course, was an excellent TARDIS pilot, but she was a Time Lady (with better qualifications than the Doctor, and a keen interest in reading the manual to ensure her driving was technically correct). Adric, who was an alien from another planet and also a child genius, could land the TARDIS on a sixpence, having been taught the basics of its operation by the Doctor and Romana. Tegan Jovanka, a humble airline stewardess from the '80s, had a jolly good go at flying the TARDIS in some of her early adventures - she got hold of the manual, much like Ashildr here, and studied it to figure out what to do, was jubilant at her success...and then crestfallen to learn that the course was already pre-set, so she hadn't actually flown it after all. So there is precedent for companions being able to manage the basics of TARDIS operation and gaining rudimentary understanding of the more basic flight controls - but there's a huge difference between that and two humans running off with a TARDIS of their own and no Time Lord supervision whatsoever. That just seems like a recipe for disaster - especially given the track record of both characters involved. They might be able to figure out the basics of its operation, especially since Clara has been learning from the Doctor, but they'd never grasp the full nuances and complexities involved - it took the Doctor several lifetimes to get it down pat.

 

The 'six people to fly a TARDIS correctly' thing only comes from that single story and I'm not convinced by it, personally. It doesn't jibe with anything else we've ever seen. It just looked and sounded good in that one story.

 

I also like that new Who gets into the companions' lives and families - RTD's Who did, anyway. Moffat's not so much, although he does pay lip service to the idea. It isn't completely new to New Who, though - there were aspects of it at times in the classic show.

 

Agreed that Clara would have been fine if she was a school teacher with a clearly defined personality who travelled with the Doctor and learned and grew from that experience and then took that experience back to her life while he moved on. I'd have enjoyed that story far more than all this increasingly hysterical bombast. I'm tired of having 'epic' story arcs grafted onto the companions, getting in the way of being able to explore them just as people.

 

I would have even been happy with the Impossible Girl thing if it had any fallout and lasting consequences but Clara's splinter selves are just another example of Moffat doing something because he thinks it would be cool. 

 

I'm not even mad about Clara getting her own TARDIS because of course she does but I'm really dreading how Moffat tries to top Miss Specialist of Snowflakes with the next companion. 

[Cyranetta]

I am one who also enjoyed Clara (well, Jenna Coleman), but agree with truthier

 

it's NEVER been explained why Clara is so deserving of that astonishingly over-the-top effort.  "Because Clara" isn't a good enough justification to do things that make no sense either within the context of Doctor Who or just more generally in the context of good storytelling.

There's also the problem of where does the Doctor go from here with the next Companion? If the next one is more "normal" (or at least less Impossible), it will be a comedown, but with all that billions-of-years and defying what seems to be all of Gallifrey effort to save Clara, how can the next Companion be anywhere near as distinctive?

 

By the end, I also kept thinking - "What about the TARDIS herself?" Did I forget something about how that 11th Doctor (I think it was 11) romantic interlude was resolved, but one would think that TARDIS would have some opinions about being abandoned and turned into a Companion-shrine.

[call me ishmael]

From what the Doctor said, it wouldn't have stopped time fracturing (which presumably remains a risk for as long as Clara remains at large, although that will never be addressed again), he just hoped it would stop the Time Lords from tracking her down wherever he decided to hide her, thus buying him time to come up with another solution. As explanations go, it's full of holes (I'd poke at a few of them, but I'm bored of doing that now) but it's all we were given!

Not sure I agree.  After all the whole business with Missy being the woman who gave Clara the number took two whole seasons to develop.  The question of what happened to Missy was earlier in the season and I am not sure I have ever heard a dalek say "me." before.  Not that I am insisting....

[ganesh]

If the next one is more "normal" (or at least less Impossible), it will be a comedown, but with all that billions-of-years and defying what seems to be all of Gallifrey effort to save Clara, how can the next Companion be anywhere near as distinctive?

 

Osgood. That's how. 

 

Seriously, though, how about instead of a full time companion next time around, the Doctor has a few solo adventures, travels with some of the people he meets. Shake it up a bit. 

[cambridgeguy]

 

Second, although i too was thrown by the use of the gun, the Doctor did make sure he knew how many regenerations the General had left before he shot him. He wasn't killing him but forcing him to become a distraction by regenerating.

That depends on what the definition of killing is for a Time Lord.  Ten sure acted like regeneration was effectively the same as death although Two only seemed concerned about what he'd look like.  At the very least it shortens them time until the General dies for good unless they plan to make it a habit of giving out unlimited regeneration cycles.  On the plus side everyone seemed pretty indifferent to the whole thing, including the General.

[WatchrTina]

 

was that supposed to be his mother? Beautiful scene of recognition and then swish never mentioned again?

I'm suddenly reminded of the time that Gallifrey nearly came back during the Tenth's doctor's last episode.  There was a woman who was hiding her face in her hands and then she looked up with a sad expression.  It was never explained who she was but I assumed she was the Doctor's mother.  I don't think this priestess is the same actress but since The Doctor's mother is a Time Lord she could also be his mother in her next regeneration.

 

I do think it is interesting that the Gallifrey-ians seem to be able to recognize one another even when they are wearing new faces.

 

 

I do like the irony that the first last thing Clara said to him (ie, the first clara he met) was 'run you clever boy, and remember me.' And he did, for hundreds and hundreds of years. But in the end, the one thing he can't do is remember her.

I adore this comment.

 

 

I also enjoyed that it wasn't Clara who lost her memory it was the Doctor.

I loved the symmetry to how Donna left.  We've seen a companion robbed of her memories of the The Doctor -- now we've seen The Doctor robbed of his memories of a companion.

Edited December 6, 2015 by WatchrTina

[ganesh]

I thought the woman was the one that helped Eight regen into the War Doctor? She came into the room and Rassilon was like, "what are you people doing here?"

[penguinnj]

 

And with Clara, all I can see is the writing, not the character. I can see the joins. I can see the desperate desire to graft super-human importance onto this not particularly special character. And the more they try to sell it, the less I believe it. It just annoys me because it undermines every other relationship he's ever had, and for what? Once you start down this over-the-top road, it becomes a self-defeating spiral.

Clapping!

I've rewatched now and I really don't have much to add - the deficiencies are there and incidents that are cursory to the Clara/Doctor are shoved to the side..  My favorite is the president standing by the window telling the sisterhood how they can't be there- it's against the law.  Ohillia says she loves a good show.  We have tension, great actors, a neat set, and HATS and what happens- he sort of grunts and turns around to- wait for it- stare out the window.  Clearly he also has a face no one listens to :)

This is my love/hate thing with Moffat.  RTD excesses seemed, to me, too much story to unpack.  But if he had the time he would- in Last of the Time Lords we'd get all that stuff about the doctor's mom, what kind of mental protection he gave Donna, how the master can shoot lightening out of his hands, etc but you'd have a 4 hour show.  Moffat frustrates me because he sets the scene, and has no intention of following through, never mind, lingering on many of the scenarios he offers up.