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Tara Ariano

S02.E09: 209

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More lazy writing: the Atlantic hurricane season runs from June 1 - November 30. It's highly improbable that there would be a big hurricane in NY in February / March. But I guess they needed a big dramatic reason for Noah to miss the birth, in addition to the fact that he's a first rate asshole. I'm just waiting for Scotty to come back from the dead and this show will have achieved soap opera levels of cliche.

I think they mentioned that the hurricane was a freak incident due to the time of year. Still iffy, but it was enough for me to suspend disbelief.

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I know he's not popular, but I loved the evil doctor. Yes, he was definitely a dick, but he was a dick who shows you he's a dick right away, and doesn't surprise you about the fact he's a dick 20 years and four kids in. His day-drinking and muttering "needy bitch" took me back to Dr. House, M.D., whom I love, although he behaves horribly. I hate how doctors are usually depicted as such saints. They're not. He had me lol'ing when he said he'd rather drown than watch Babe with Helen's kids. Wow, an adult on TV--a successful pediatric practitioner in fact--who is not in love with other people's kids! I thought there were a few of us left wandering this earth...the only thing he did that was in truly poor taste, to me, was pulling out his phone and telling Helen he'd just gotten an alert on Tinder. Dude. By all means, go out and get your freak on, but this goes into the category of something the woman you just banged who is crying really, really doesn't need to know.

I absolutely hated the doctor from the time he was sitting at the bar drinking whiskey waiting for a Tinder match in the hopes that he'd get laid, to the moment he said he'd rather drown than sit through the storm at Helen's house with the kids there. This man is cold. But the worst thing was seeing Helen so desperate for some closeness to a man, any man, that she'd agree to having sex with this grunt of a doctor after talking with him for less than 20 minutes. She's looking for a real love connection, but she's looking in all the wrong places. I bet he kissed her on the inside of her wrist before he left just to check her pulse to see if it was racing over him. Helen looked pathetic by banging this sleazeball.

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More lazy writing: the Atlantic hurricane season runs from June 1 - November 30. It's highly improbable that there would be a big hurricane in NY in February / March. But I guess they needed a big dramatic reason for Noah to miss the birth, in addition to the fact that he's a first rate asshole. I'm just waiting for Scotty to come back from the dead and this show will have achieved soap opera levels of cliche.

The name of the hurricane was Alice in this episode. The last actual hurricane that occurred along the Atlantic coast was hurricane Alice, in 1955. Hurricane Alice is the only known Atlantic hurricane to span two calendar years, Dec.1954 and Jan. 1955. Maybe she will name her baby, 'Alice'.

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In addition, as iggysaurus points out, we're given a time line of the day. That's even more evidence that we are seeing what is actually happening, and not someone's perspective of what happened.

 

Well, as you say here, I was one of the people who thought that this episode lacked the POV format, for the reasons you and I both outlined, but I've since learned that Sarah Treem said otherwise. Apparently, she tweeted, "A small point of clarification - last night's ep was not perspective-less. That will never happen on this show. We just didn't label them." (I say "apparently," because although that is a direct quote, I got it from a comment over at the AV Club, not from Treem's twitter, which I have not looked at.)

 

From watching the show itself and nothing else, I definitely would've thought that this was an episode not told from any particular POV, but rather as objective reality. And I don't ever read interviews or tweets from the showrunner (of this show or any show) because I want the show to stand on its own.  I don't think I should need to have the writers or creators explain anything -- whatever they want to convey should be evident from what they put on screen. But having said all that, I suppose now that I know Treem specifically stated this episode IS meant to portray individual POVs, I pretty much have to accept it as fact! 

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I still think Helen would find the doctor's bluntness and arrogance attractive. As she pointed out in the last episode, she spent 20 years listening to Noah's insecurities and trying to talk him out of his endless self-loathing. And when she wasn't doing that, she was dealing with the emotional neediness of four spoiled kids. She was trying to move on with Max when he unloaded all his nasty baggage on her. At least sex with Dr. Ullah wouldn't require any of that. I can see how that would be refreshing to Helen. And as N. Bluth pointed out, both Noah and Max turned out to be stealth assholes anyway, so why not go with the asshole who's not as much work for her?

 

I agree that not showing us Helen and Cole's reactions to Alison's pregnancy is a big problem. It doesn't really make any sense that they wouldn't know about it, especially if Noah's personal life has been the subject of rabid tabloid interest, as the show keeps insisting. 

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More lazy writing: the Atlantic hurricane season runs from June 1 - November 30. It's highly improbable that there would be a big hurricane in NY in February / March. But I guess they needed a big dramatic reason for Noah to miss the birth, in addition to the fact that he's a first rate asshole. I'm just waiting for Scotty to come back from the dead and this show will have achieved soap opera levels of cliche.

I assume Scotty has a twin that has been hidden form his siblings.  Scotty's twin's reflection will start appearing in store windows and mirrors, startling Alison et al.  Too soapy?  The again, maybe Scotty's twin will be seen making out with Whitney in a steam room while Noah tries not to jack it. 

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What about Helen sneaking the doctor into the home while the children were upstairs?  OK, they did the deed in the basement but then she brings him up to the kitchen where of course they run into Martin?

 

Even if it was one of the other kids, they'd still remember this strange guy in their home.

 

 

Is this suppose to be the stormy night where Scotty dies?  Seemed like they were playing with the viewer's anticipation that Noah might have run Scotty over while under the influence, with severe weather.  But turns out he gets stuck.

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Is this suppose to be the stormy night where Scotty dies?  Seemed like they were playing with the viewer's anticipation that Noah might have run Scotty over while under the influence, with severe weather.  But turns out he gets stuck.

 

No, Scotty dies the night of Cole's wedding, which hasn't happened yet in the timeline of the perspectives. That's the same night he had the fight with Alison about "our baby" that Oscar captured on video.

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I absolutely hated the doctor from the time he was sitting at the bar drinking whiskey waiting for a Tinder match in the hopes that he'd get laid, to the moment he said he'd rather drown than sit through the storm at Helen's house with the kids there. This man is cold. But the worst thing was seeing Helen so desperate for some closeness to a man, any man, that she'd agree to having sex with this grunt of a doctor after talking with him for less than 20 minutes. She's looking for a real love connection, but she's looking in all the wrong places. I bet he kissed her on the inside of her wrist before he left just to check her pulse to see if it was racing over him. Helen looked pathetic by banging this sleazeball.

Totally disagree with you on this one. I didn't think Helen was at all pathetic inviting him home. Maybe she has a thing for bad boys but when the doctor asked her for her number and she asked him if he was going to ask her out on a date and then she told him a date was just an interview for sex, I thought she was totally aware of what she was doing or wanted. She was harking back to her 'wild girl' days a bit.

Was she surprised by his unsentimental outlook? Possibly. I found him somewhat intriguing, and also, honest with her. So...not sure if he's going to play more of a role in Helen's life, but I would be willing to see more of him.

Edited by cardigirl
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Can anyone speculate as to why Eden asked Noah to wait 15 minutes to find her at the party?

Three options : 1) she's read his book and knows she won't get much foreplay from him and wants to get a head start or 2)she's setting up a video camera that she can use to create a sex tape to further his bad boy image, or 3) she has to take birth control measures.

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From watching the show itself and nothing else, I definitely would've thought that this was an episode not told from any particular POV, but rather as objective reality. And I don't ever read interviews or tweets from the showrunner (of this show or any show) because I want the show to stand on its own...I suppose now that I know Treem specifically stated this episode IS meant to portray individual POVs, I pretty much have to accept it as fact! 

 

Actually, I don't think you do have to accept that as fact. The episode definitely had the feeling of objective reality, well apart from the sections having no introductory titles. If Treem meant us to understand all the segments were POV, then she utterly failed in the execution! (With the exception of the depiction of Noah's drug-and-euphoria-induced haze, which was effective, and which clearly, by any definition, was POV.) 

 

But by saying she failed utterly, I mean the opposite of criticism. I thought the objective-reality feel, after all this time, made the episode fantastic--one of the best ever. And Treem did that. The fact that she can't seem to help devaluing her own work with her tweets is something I can't do much about.

 

There is one other explanation, which is neither objective reality nor POV in the way the show has been doing it. Which is that all four stories were dreams--the sort of dreams that feel exactly like reality except for the unlikely events in them. That would explain the nonsensicalness of the surgeon coming upstairs from the basement with none of the children questioning it, Noah's nightmarish party experience, the improbability of a doctor attending to Alison full-time in the depths of Alison's aloneness, and Cole's masochistic pity party/house immolation.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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The name of the hurricane was Alice in this episode. The last actual hurricane that occurred along the Atlantic coast was hurricane Alice, in 1955. Hurricane Alice is the only known Atlantic hurricane to span two calendar years, Dec.1954 and Jan. 1955. Maybe she will name her baby, 'Alice'.

I think her baby's name is Joanie or something like that. I definitely remember it starts with a J.

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She thought something might be going on between Max and Helen, which is why I still think that's what her look was about when she told Helen not to call him Uncle Max. That look was the classic side-eye in my opinion and sort of a, "seriously..." I really think she knew about their brief relationship or whatever it was and that's what her comment was about.

I acknowledged that was the most obvious explanation - I'm just throwing another possibility out there. This is a show that likes to mislead us.

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Can anyone speculate as to why Eden asked Noah to wait 15 minutes to find her at the party?

I almost answered this, but before I hit the 'quick reply' button, I got some sense in my early morning head and deleted what I was about to post. It probably would have been reported anyway. Some things are best left to the imagination.                

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Well, as you say here, I was one of the people who thought that this episode lacked the POV format, for the reasons you and I both outlined, but I've since learned that Sarah Treem said otherwise. Apparently, she tweeted, "A small point of clarification - last night's ep was not perspective-less. That will never happen on this show. We just didn't label them."

That's really lazy of Sarah Treem and the writers not to think this through and leave out the POV labels.

 

(I say "apparently," because although that is a direct quote, I got it from a comment over at the AV Club, not from Treem's twitter, which I have not looked at.)

I checked her twitter and that's what she wrote.

 

From watching the show itself and nothing else, I definitely would've thought that this was an episode not told from any particular POV, but rather as objective reality. And I don't ever read interviews or tweets from the showrunner (of this show or any show) because I want the show to stand on its own.  I don't think I should need to have the writers or creators explain anything -- whatever they want to convey should be evident from what they put on screen. But having said all that, I suppose now that I know Treem specifically stated this episode IS meant to portray individual POVs, I pretty much have to accept it as fact!

I agree that the show should stand on its own.

 

 

I agree that not showing us Helen and Cole's reactions to Alison's pregnancy is a big problem. It doesn't really make any sense that they wouldn't know about it, especially if Noah's personal life has been the subject of rabid tabloid interest, as the show keeps insisting.

Cole didn't know that he was in the book until Oscar pointed it out, so I could see Cole being ignorant of what's in the tabloids (at least until someone like Oscar mentions it). However, I suspect Helen would know about the tabloids, if only via Whitney.

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I really was expecting Clooney to show up.  If he'll do some stupid coffee commercial with Danny Devito, why not this?

 

Clooney has been doing those coffee ads in Europe for yeaaaaaars. (When I was in Italy in 2010, his costar was Malkovich. ) Apparently they pay him several metric fucktons of money, which he has said he uses to allow him the freedom to do smaller projects with people he likes that may have no box office potential. I've been guessing that to play them stateside must cost them way more, and why not: he's got a new wife to support! :)

 

After Max's discussion about casting Sasha Grey in the proposed movie, I was really jarred when the actor playing Alison's OB looked so much like her. How very meta! Two days of checking IMDB confirms that it's not Grey in scrubs, so I take it all back.

 

If Whitney is at a producer's party ("Wall to wall models!") in a hot tub with a hot chick, I'm guessing her incipient catwalk career is going better than I thought it would. 

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I checked her twitter and that's what she wrote.

 

  I also checked and it is word for word what she wrote. Sarah has her own POV.

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If he'll do some stupid coffee commercial with Danny Devito, why not this?

 

I'm one of the viewers (millions of us?) who was surprised and pleased to see these two pop up in a commercial.

 

I can't hate a character who has that moment of truth.

 

If it was a moment of truth, for me it was just, "Oh, crap! One more thing for some woman to be pissed about." I haven't felt any joy of anticipation from him at all. He simply reacts.

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I really disliked this episode...can't even think of anything to add! I was really enjoying this season more until the last two episodes, but now the characters don't make sense to me anymore. Too many changes in too few episodes maybe.

 

Cosigned.  I think it started going downhill slightly earlier than just the past two episodes--more like the last four, starting with the yoga retreat--but I like how you put it, that "now the characters don't make sense" any more.

 

Just finished the episode, and I was glad that Luisa refused to take Cole's shit. He was being a melodramatic, insensitive asshole. He didn't even bother to show any compassion about her infertility. It's all about his pain and stupid ass family 'curse.' He was making her issue all about him, and she was well within her rights to get his ass together about it. He isn't the only person in the world the universe has dropped a house on. The loss of a child is one of the worst experiences any one could could through, but that doesn't give him the right to monopolize tragedy. If he's serious about giving his relationship a chance with Luisa, he has to put his house in order.

 

I'm normally not the first one to jump up and defend Cole, but I actually interpreted his reaction as indicating how deeply in love with Luisa he is.

 

First of all, she is more than correct that she should have told him a lot sooner.  Once you're at all approaching getting serious with someone, that's something they need to know.  Definitely before she told him she loved him, I'd say.  Because as much as that sucks for her, there are a lot of guys who are not going to want to settle down with her once they know that, no matter how awesome she may be.  And I don't think there is anything wrong with that: having kids (biologically related kids) is super important for a lot of people, myself included.  And Cole definitely seems like he's such a person.

 

But so when he kind of ruefully laughed about being cursed, that was quite different from reacting with some awkward version of "I'm sorry, this sucks but I want to have kids so this is not going to work out".  Instead, it was more like "I am so in love with you that I can't stand the idea of not being with you, which means my family line really is dead".

 

Well, as you say here, I was one of the people who thought that this episode lacked the POV format, for the reasons you and I both outlined, but I've since learned that Sarah Treem said otherwise. Apparently, she tweeted, "A small point of clarification - last night's ep was not perspective-less. That will never happen on this show. We just didn't label them." 

 

"That will never happen on this show"?  Hasn't it already been happening with the lawyer and so on?  Or is that supposed to be his POV?  If so, that goes against other things Treem has said about only having four POVs.

 

Can anyone speculate as to why Eden asked Noah to wait 15 minutes to find her at the party?

 

I was going to snark that it was one of those things that was there for no real logical reason, but just served the purpose of getting Noah to wander around, get into trouble, and ultimately leave.  But nara did supply some plausible possibilities.

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Allison paid attention only to that doctor, and her own thoughts and pain, so that's how she sees it - she was all alone except for the doctor.  I'm sure there were nurses checking on her, but they didn't register with her

 

 

Interesting that Nurse Alison/Allison thought the doctor was a nurse--apparently because she was female.

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If it was a moment of truth, for me it was just, "Oh, crap!  One more thing for some woman to be pissed about."   I haven't felt any joy of anticipation from him at all.  He simply reacts.

I agree, except I take it even further: I don't believe that Noah's weepy breakdown was a sea-change moment for him at all - at least it didn't convince me.  All I saw was a pot-and-coke-loaded, drunk on his ass (I lost track of the number of shots he and Eden downed) shmuck who has just been shocked by almost coming on to his own daughter.  Noah then runs off, gets stuck in the mud, has a half-hearted moment of moral insight, gets weepy and then, mainly, just feels sorry for himself.  As usual.  

 

I might have bought it if he'd been in a dark group-grope room (ugh) and had done something overtly sexual (like grabbing a thigh or breast) and then discovered that he'd groped his own daughter.  That might make even Noah so freaked out and disgusted with himself that it could produce an epiphany.  But I'm not even sure if that would work because aside from the fact that Noah is a weak, faithless fame whore, he was too out of it to have a real epiphany: those moments of "self-realization" that occur when someone is as loaded as Noah was usually vanish like smoke in the wind once said asshole has gotten sober. 

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I did not think this episode was from characters' POVs. It was missing the cutscenes with characters' names on them.  What present was a clear timeline (7pm, 6pm, 2AM etc).

 

Lol Noah.  All you had to do was wait 15 minutes and go upstairs to get some action (yuck).  Instead you wondered around, bathed / swam in STD pool (double yucks), and then climbed into STD hottub with your OWN daughter (quadruple yucks).  Just about the only redeeming thing was that experience seemed enough to sober him up from drug / alcohol induced state he was in.

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I did not think this episode was from characters' POVs. It was missing the cutscenes with characters' names on them.  What present was a clear timeline (7pm, 6pm, 2AM etc).

 

I don't know. I saw it all as different POVs, it was just that it was all happening at the same day at the same time.

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Regarding lack of labels to announce POVs, I think the decision made sense, considering that the scenes jumped from one perspective to another and back again. Labelling that would be a pain to watch and ruin the editing feel they were going for. I also think the "objective" future present scenes have always had a taint to them, almost monochrome. So basically, except the "Part 1: Helen" labels, Treem has been consistent.

 

The name of the hurricane was Alice in this episode. The last actual hurricane that occurred along the Atlantic coast was hurricane Alice, in 1955. Hurricane Alice is the only known Atlantic hurricane to span two calendar years, Dec.1954 and Jan. 1955. Maybe she will name her baby, 'Alice'.

 

 

That'd be too meta, Ruth Wilson's other well known character was/is called Alice, on Luther.

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To me, it just seemed like they squeezed in 4 POV's instead of the usual two.  Doing it via a day's timeline, rather than solid blocks of POV, is the only difference I noticed in the way they did the POV's.  Each POV was neatly segmented so that each of the 4 main characters interacted with none of the other main characters, so it couldn't possibly be anyone else's viewpoint except the main character's. 

 

It never occurred to me that this could be an "objective" viewpoint because the segments clearly showed exactly the same POV's we've been seeing all along:  Helen as sad, frustrated and overwhelmed divorcee, Noah as self-centered ego-driven cheater, Allison as lonely and alone victim, and Cole as down-and-out and self-destructive in his grief over the death of his child and marriage.

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To me, it just seemed like they squeezed in 4 POV's instead of the usual two.  Doing it via a day's timeline, rather than solid blocks of POV, is the only difference I noticed in the way they did the POV's.  Each POV was neatly segmented so that each of the 4 main characters interacted with none of the other main characters, so it couldn't possibly be anyone else's viewpoint except the main character's. 

 

It never occurred to me that this could be an "objective" viewpoint because the segments clearly showed exactly the same POV's we've been seeing all along:  Helen as sad, frustrated and overwhelmed divorcee, Noah as self-centered ego-driven cheater, Allison as lonely and alone victim, and Cole as down-and-out and self-destructive in his grief over the death of his child and marriage.

 

Another thing that made me think this was "objective" was a few self corrections each character had.  Allison mistakenly called the female doctor "nurse".  Or Noah said the producer's proposed ending was also his idea only to quickly correct it by saying it was the producer's idea.  Characters POV usually did not have any correction as each character remembered their scenes as "facts".

Also, Noah actually waited before going upstairs to be with Eden.  In his own POV Noah would have gone upstairs almost as soon as Eden left. ;)

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Another thing that made me think this was "objective" was a few self corrections each character had.  Allison mistakenly called the female doctor "nurse".  Or Noah said the producer's proposed ending was also his idea only to quickly correct it by saying it was the producer's idea.  Characters POV usually did not have any correction as each character remembered their scenes as "facts".

Also, Noah actually waited before going upstairs to be with Eden.  In his own POV Noah would have gone upstairs almost as soon as Eden left. ;)

 

Honestly, I thought that was Noah just pandering to the producer's ego. Alison explained that age was the cause of her initial judgement. 

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Honestly, I thought that was Noah just pandering to the producer's ego. Alison explained that age was the cause of her initial judgement. 

True, but my point was in his own recollection Noah would have glossed over the fact that he said that it was his idea too.  He would have just recalled that he had agreed with the producer to butter him up.  

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Which of Helen's lovers is the biggest asshole, Noah, Max or the doctor?

 

Or is there something off about Helen being such an asshole magnet?

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Can anyone speculate as to why Eden asked Noah to wait 15 minutes to find her at the party?

She had to make sure she was not going to get sick (due to too much alcohol) while "riding" Noah

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If the baby turns out to be Noah's after all, I'm going to be pissed. This is going a little too far to just turn out to be misdirection. Not to mention all the curse nonsense would just be a huge waste of time.

 

Speaking of which... come on. Cole burning down the house with baby-killing grandpappy's moonshine, thereby symbolically destroying the past and breaking his own curse as Luisa had told him he must do and so allowing Alison to successfully give birth to a healthy daughter whose cries he psychically hears? That was all so over the top and silly. And there will be no legal ramifications for his arson, I assume.

 

Also, at the Hollywood Coke and Sex Party I was waiting for Noah to actually do a line off a hooker's ass like Jordan Belfort. Fully live the stereotype, Noah!

Edited by carryanation
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If it was a moment of truth, for me it was just, "Oh, crap!  One more thing for some woman to be pissed about."   I haven't felt any joy of anticipation from him at all.  He simply reacts.

 

The cynic in me thought Noah was crying because he blew his chance to score with Eden.

 

Speaking of, I don't understand why it's not OK to sleep with Noah during the tour and it is OK to sleep with him when the tour is over.  She's still a publicist sleeping with her client.

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I agree, except I take it even further: I don't believe that Noah's weepy breakdown was a sea-change moment for him at all - at least it didn't convince me...Noah...runs off, gets stuck in the mud, has a half-hearted moment of moral insight, gets weepy and then, mainly, just feels sorry for himself.

 

It's not that we disagree about whether Noah's epiphany was truly "sea-change" for him. We don't, because I have my doubts about that as well. It's that I don't need a moment of self-aware remorse to rise to the level of sea-change for me to recognize it as human and have my empathy and compassion aroused by it.

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After Max's discussion about casting Sasha Grey in the proposed movie, I was really jarred when the actor playing Alison's OB looked so much like her. How very meta! Two days of checking IMDB confirms that it's not Grey in scrubs, so I take it all back.

 

 

Hmm, didn't see the resemblance at all but I recognized her immediately from Fox's Gracepoint, of which I was probably one of the only maybe 20 people who watched. 

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And there will be no legal ramifications for his arson, I assume.

I was thinking "How is the new owner of the house going to feel when s/he/they find out you burned it down?" I mean, yes, the land is the more valuable part of the property, but Cole didn't know what the new owner planned to do with it -  what if they planned to live in it? And even if they didn't, they still have to deal with the burned-out shell. We'd be doing some renegotiating if I were the buyer.

 

Also, I straight-up laughed at Noah when he was crying in his car. I felt neither sympathy nor empathy. He's just so pathetic. 

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I was thinking "How is the new owner of the house going to feel when s/he/they find out you burned it down?" I mean, yes, the land is the more valuable part of the property, but Cole didn't know what the new owner planned to do with it -  what if they planned to live in it? And even if they didn't, they still have to deal with the burned-out shell. We'd be doing some renegotiating if I were the buyer.

 

Also, I straight-up laughed at Noah when he was crying in his car. I felt neither sympathy nor empathy. He's just so pathetic. 

 

As he tried to remove the piece of frame with his son's height, Cole told Luisa the new owner was going to tear down the house anyway.

 

I am going to fanwank the new owner will let the arson go since the cost to remove rubbles is less than the cost to tear down a house.

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Interesting that Nurse Alison/Allison thought the doctor was a nurse--apparently because she was female.

 

I think it was because she thought she looked young.  Allison was a nurse so she knows doctors are about 50/50 female/male. 

 

It's the male nurses who people assume are doctors because male nurses haven't caught up in numbers yet.

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It's not that we disagree about whether Noah's epiphany was truly "sea-change" for him. We don't, because I have my doubts about that as well. It's that I don't need a moment of self-aware remorse to rise to the level of sea-change for me to recognize it as human and have my empathy and compassion aroused by it.

I suspect that my lack of empathy and compassion stems from having been married for many years to an alcoholic/substance abuser who always got weepy and self-pitying when he was high.  It wears very thin after awhile, and it never brought about any serious self-reflection or insight on his part afterwards.  I know Noah is not the same person (character?) as my ex, but walking through that particular kind of narcissistic, semi-sociopathic, destructive fire (no offense, Cole) leaves its scars.   Or at least it did for me, but I guess we all see the story through personal prisms. 

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I'm pretty sure Cole knows that Alison is pregnant, as does Helen, and I agree it's strange that we don't see either of their reactions to it or how it's each of affecting them because surely it is. I'm assuming that Cole has seen Alison since she became pregnant even though they haven't shown it. She obviously wasn't trying to hide it because she was supposed to be there helping Cole and Luisa pack up her house. And I'm also sure others in town know about her pregnancy and he would have heard about it. Spoiler for a preview scene from next week:

Scotty also goes to talk to Alison in New York and she mentions that her daughter might be upstairs sleeping and he doesn't seem at all surprised. It's clear that he knew she had a daughter. If Scotty knows I'm sure Cole does too.

 

Also, I wanted to note there there is no way the OBGYN would allow the baby's heart rate to be that erratic for that long and still continue with a natural birth. Alison would definitely have had a c-section, particularly in New York where c-section rates are very high. So either, since this is a POV, the baby's heart rate was not that abnormal and Alison is remembering it more dramatic than it was (very possible) or the writers don't know anything about hospital births.

Edited by glowbug
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That's why I listed IMDB and Showtime's website. I thought Alison with one 'L' was correct too. Just very surprised to see it spelled with two 'ells' on Noah's phone messages and

in his dedication of the book. Maybe the

showrunners aren't up on every detail. ;)

The show also spells it with one L when it's her POV we're seeing in an episode half.

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But by saying she failed utterly, I mean the opposite of criticism. I thought the objective-reality feel, after all this time, made the episode fantastic--one of the best ever. And Treem did that. The fact that she can't seem to help devaluing her own work with her tweets is something I can't do much about.

 

 

This seems to be an unfortunate pattern. I continually think she's doing something interesting only to have some tweet from her saying that it wasn't what she was doing it all. I wish she would shut it, honestly.

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There may not have been an obstetric surgeon at the hospital, due to the hurricane.

Decels get doctors panicky, but the evidence for sectioning in response is scant. You are right though that most hospitals have hair triggers in this regard.

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There may not have been an obstetric surgeon at the hospital, due to the hurricane.

Decels get doctors panicky, but the evidence for sectioning in response is scant. You are right though that most hospitals have hair triggers in this regard.

 

I wasn't saying the OBGYN should have performed a c-section (I honestly don't know if the doctor was putting the baby at a high risk by allowing the heart rate to be so erratic for so long), just that it was unrealistic that she hadn't. I'm pretty sure if she was a doctor and an OBGYN she would have the training and skill to perform one. I think it's a requirement. Midwives don't do surgeries and they refer to OBGYNs when they think they're necessary. Unfortunately, c-sections are done far more frequently than they should in the United States as you've pointed out. Infant mortality and morbidity aren't better than other industrialized nations that have lower c-section rates and maternal health and mortality is much worse. C-sections do save lives when they're necessary (I think natural birth advocates sometimes forget this) but no woman should be exposed to the risks of major surgery if it isn't needed. 

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Interesting thoughts, but not especially relevant to this ep cuz we didn't get anyone's reaction to the baby.  Not even an indifferent shrug from dickface Noah.  All Treem gave us was a hazy, overly dramatic birth scene straight outta Rosemary's Baby.  I was expecting to see the cursed Lockhart devil-baby with little red horns & a pitchfork.  Oh, I know we've seen she's not a devil baby, but the way this played out, it sure seemed to be leading up to that.

The lack of any reaction to or indication of awareness of the baby or pregnancy in 2/4 POVs — Cole & Helen, the 2 people most likely to be wounded or enraged or baffled (or some messy combination thereof) by it — is *exactly* what makes it so very relevant to this episode. The baby arrives — but who is expecting her and how are they feeling about it?

As you point out, the ridiculously overwrought birth sequences were useless to advance anyone's story and felt weirdly generic at the same time. Another missed opportunity IMO — where was the Alison who had decided on her own to keep this baby (something that seemed clear from her announcement at the yoga retreat), the Alison who whether consciously or unconsciously doesn't seem to care who the father is, just that this new child is hers? That Alison might have a mindful, focused reason to choose unmedicated childbirth, might invite Athena to attend and support her, might draw on the clarity and body awareness she seemed to have when she discovered and embraced her pregnancy. We really only saw that at the end when she was bonding with her daughter and was all "Noah who?"

I think her baby's name is Joanie or something like that. I definitely remember it starts with a J.

I'm pretty sure you're right that it's Joanie, which was her grandmother's name.

There may not have been an obstetric surgeon at the hospital, due to the hurricane.

Decels get doctors panicky, but the evidence for sectioning in response is scant. You are right though that most hospitals have hair triggers in this regard.

In the U.S. at least, OB/GYNs *are* obstetric surgeons — only in a really unusual circumstance would any other specialty perform a c-section — and unfortunately U.S. hospitals make the call on c-sections based more on liability concerns than research-proven results. The charitable interpretation of the depiction of Alison's birth experience is that it's her typical poor-me, all-alone, catastrophic POV, I guess.

I was also finding it a stretch that a 35-weeker wouldn't require at least some supportive care and/or NICU time at first. I mean, that's not enormously premature, but those last few weeks can be really important for lung development as well as putting on enough body fat to regulate temperature.

Edited by Margherita Erdman
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This seems to be an unfortunate pattern. I continually think she's doing something interesting only to have some tweet from her saying that it wasn't what she was doing it all. I wish she would shut it, honestly.

 

I know. I endure it by telling myself (and believing) that while some part of her doesn't understand what she herself is creating, the other part of her, the part that is doing the creating, is accomplishing something complex and nuanced. 

 

When you think about it in the context of this show, it shouldn't be a surprise that she seems to misunderstand her own work. The whole show is about how people have only the most tenuous grasp on the events of their lives. Why would Sarah Treem be an exception?

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