S03.E04: The Sisters Mills

[Sandman]

How tall is Haysbert? Or maybe that should be how teeny-tiny is Annable? Because standing next to Haysbert in that photo makes him look wee.

Would John Amos be too on the nose for Papa Mills?

Edited October 24, 2015 by Sandman

[Free]

I really enjoyed the fact that Jenny went back to Abbie to apologize for being inappropriate, because usually when TV characters are nasty to each other everyone pretends they don't notice.

 

It's why I love their relationship and was sad last season when they had Hawley between them.

[crowswork]

First and foremost - is Shannon Sossaman not killing it - no, destroying it - as Pandora?

 

ICan't believe how much I like SS here, as opposed to Wasted Time… I mean Worthless Pines… I mean Wayward Pines.

I agree about Betsy – I think she must be from the future. Or maybe they're just being anachronistic. But they were so careful about Crane's dialect and even Katrina.

I'm thinking they did more to Crane's teeth then just cleaning. I can't imagine going 30+ years and having brutal antique dentistry, done with chisels and hammers and not needing more than a cleaning. They should've made that more clear. Like last week's take your IV and go home from the hospital thing.

[benteen]

Crane had TV good teeth, something he definitely wouldn't have had in the 1780s.

 

I agree that they did go overboard with the Crane humor at times, with the little girl and at the dentist office.  The scene at the elementary school was the perfect kind of Crane humor. 

[MissAlmond]

How rural is Sleepy Hollow that there is only ONE elementary school in a TEN MILE radius!!

 

And why did the school look so... un-school-like? Seriously, they looked like they were in someone's house with school furniture dragged in.

 

  The good folk who live in the Village of Sleepy Hollow have other things on their minds, like that time . . .  Or last year when . . .. Then there was that  . . ..  Oh well, nevermind, they know it was something and that something was more important than building schools.  Besides, housing is really cheap although they can't remember the reason why and Jesus did warn them living in Sleepy Hollow would be a hard knock life.

Edited October 24, 2015 by MissAlmond

[CooperTV]

Crane had TV good teeth, something he definitely wouldn't have had in the 1780s.

 

Crane's teeth were probably perfectly fine, as any dental decay is relatively modern issue, because people eat too much sugar. Although, he could have lost teeth due to scurvy during the war or whatever.

[Helena Dax]

I think the scene where Betsy was too modern was not a flashback. It was Ichabod's drug induced fantasy/daydream

 

I totally agree  with this. At the beginning  I  thought it was a memory, but then he woke  up  at the dentist and I understood it  was just a dream.  That's why she was kissing him  in  front of everyone -something absolutely improper at the time-  and she was using  modern expressions. The  one about overthinking  too  much had been said by Jenny (I think) earlier.

 

I'm always surprised when I see the  bits about  nitrose oxygen.  In  my country, you're only asleep at the dentist if you're going to have your  four wisdom teeth pulled out at the same  time,  for example. Fillings or  single extractions are  done with local anesthesia. But I  just LOVED  drugged Ichabod,  that scene was hysterical. "I'm  adorable",  his expression when  he  saw  "the gift", or when he reclined  his head on  her arm, the avatar... Perfect.

 

Also,  I think  his formality at the  hospital, when Abbie was unconscious,  was a way  to deal with his  pain. It happens  sometimes.  You try  to keep  all your emotions  under control because you're afraid  of  losing it.

 

Poor Abbie, she  was  so  worried about Jenny and it turns  out, she knew  everything. Great, lol. But  I think they  should give  it a try.  I mean, I'd understand if they were  worried about ending up hurt, but it seems they were worried about inconveniencing him.  If that's really the worst scenerario, I say go for it. In  the  best case, they'll have a father.  In the worst  one, they just have to say  bye and leave. 

 

Loved the  monster,  it was scary. And  Pandora's getting more and more interesting.

[LordBowen]

Would love to see Tucker Smallwood play the Mills sisters' father.

[Clanstarling]

Man, that phrasing from Betsy Ross was ridiculous.  "Go with it", "over thinking"?  That whole little sequence screamed 21st century.  Either the writers screwed up, (which would be weird, given the abundance of Crane 18th century speak, in this episode... almost too much of that, btw... a little goes a long way, writers) or they're trying to get at something else... the Betsy out of time theory.  Or maybe we're meant to think that last scene was all his anesthesia-induced hallucination, and that's why she was speaking as a modern woman?  Still... very weird vibe there.

I rolled my eyes, but when it went directly to Ichabod clearly hallucinating, I decided to handwave it as drug induced - especially since the wording (iirc) was very much like Joe Corbin's during the stakeout and would have been in Ichabod's mind. Still don't like Betsy, but she was tolerable in the flashback (since she didn't say anything at all until the end of the scene).

 

Hospitals legally have to treat emergency cases though, insurance or not.  And I can't imagine any hospital would let a patient who had been so close to death just go recover at home, when he was still on such potent drugs.  It seemed like it was the same day or the day after he'd been stabbed.

Or maybe, like Ichabod, we're overthinking it. LOL. But overthinking is part of the pleasure of this show.

Edited October 24, 2015 by clanstarling

[theatremouse]

I am sure that someone who gets paid for acting can at least be passably OK at it?

Sadly, this is an incorrect assumption.

[HalcyonDays]

I'm always surprised when I see the  bits about  nitrose oxygen.  In  my country, you're only asleep at the dentist if you're going to have your  four wisdom teeth pulled out at the same  time,  for example. Fillings or  single extractions are  done with local anesthesia. But I  just LOVED  drugged Ichabod,  that scene was hysterical. "I'm  adorable",  his expression when  he  saw  "the gift", or when he reclined  his head on  her arm, the avatar... Perfect.

 

I was on nitrous for my wisdom teeth removal, and I just remember it was like being drunk. The conversations the dentist/dental assistant had were a bit messed up, and I had some weird dreams too I think. For a guy whose never gone to the dentist, if I was Abbie, I would have told the dentist to put Crane completely under, just in case he freaks.

 

Crane had TV good teeth, something he definitely wouldn't have had in the 1780s.

 

True, true. There are those rare people out there with really strong enamel though, so they never get cavities no matter what, so it makes sense. They just naturally have good teeth. Lucky people.

 

Hospitals legally have to treat emergency cases though, insurance or not.  And I can't imagine any hospital would let a patient who had been so close to death just go recover at home, when he was still on such potent drugs.  It seemed like it was the same day or the day after he'd been stabbed.

 

It does kinda makes sense to me. Crane has no insurance, so the less time in the hospital, the better. Abbie works for the FBI and most likely has medical insurance, therefore she can stay and receive treatment at the hospital. With the Dentist, if you know the right ones, she could submit the claim to her insurance as if she went there herself. It's also possible that she has a specific amount of money she can spend for dental benefits in a year, no matter for who or what. As a federal employee, I'm sure the benefits are very generous. At least that's what I've seen here. Not sure about the differences in benefit packages in the US.

[TrininisaScorp]

Oh, that was fun and creepy! After watching it, I felt like I did after a season 1 episode (e.g. "hee!"  "WTF was that?" "[insert historical figure] did what?" "I love Crane, and the Sisters Mills").  Creepy MotW and I enjoyed the sleuthing to figure it all out.

 

Crane in the school and Jenny's look of pure glee with her camera phone made me laugh out loud.  It's moments like that which really make me love this weird little show.

 

Having Abbie and Jenny's relationship back to the forefront of the series is one of the smartest decisions these writers have made.  These two really draw me in and like them, I don't know what they should do with this father information.

 

It cannot be said enough how much I appreciate Tom Mison.  They make the man jump through hoops on this show and he seems so effortless at it.  Heavy handed comedy to strong drama...he just makes it happen and he's so interesting to watch.

 

Loved seeing the interaction between Joe and Crane.  I think continuing to explore and build the relationship would be nice for both guys. 

 

The Witnesses continue to make me super happy.  Their conversations (silly and serious) are always fun to watch.  These are two people who really know and value one another and they are so comfortable that they can touch on subjects that wouldn't be "okay" for others.  Crane's formal speech at Abbie's bedside broke my heart; he clearly was trying to hold his fear for her at bay.

 

Like many of you, I'm really enjoying Pandora.  She's so creepy and evil and I don't know what her ultimate goal is, but I'm along for the journey.

 

And then there is Betsy.  I glad I have this forum b/c I think it will be easier to pretend it's a Lost in Austen scenario.  It's the only way I won't scream at the tv.  But, seriously...can't Crane just interact with random people?  Why does he always need a "back in the day" anchor?  It feels very shoehorned and the actress just isn't good at selling her wares.

[Snookums]

I'm always surprised when I see the  bits about  nitrose oxygen.  In  my country, you're only asleep at the dentist if you're going to have your  four wisdom teeth pulled out at the same  time,  for example.

 

 

Many dentists will offer sedatives to patients with phobias, especially if there's a lot of work to be done. Better then having them not come in out of fear and end up losing teeth/getting jaw infections/having a heart attack.

 

This one was great! Whichever contortionist was hired to play the tooth fairy did a fab job, and the skip-frame stutter-step bit may be old hat, but it's still effective creepy old hat. I felt bad for the young actress when she had to do scenes with him--that would give me nightmares!

 

I officially nominate the great and only Tony Todd as the Erstwhile Papa Mills. He's got spotless horror pedigree and his voice is to die for. 

 

Crane blissing out on nitrous is a sight to behold, and you know Abby loves him because she didn't film it and post it on YouTube for the world to see. That is true love.

 

Sigghhh...so Pandora's Sumerian now? Okay, but why couldn't they just give her a Sumerian name? Or stick with the Greek myth? Although her dad sounds a right piece of work, my God. And Sossamon continues to burn the place up with her performance--she genuinely comes across as "ohhh, wee lamb, with your little delusions of Witness-hood. That's so adorable. I will destroy you." Then heads off to watch her Fear Tree get all Poe-blossomed. This is a person who understands her goals.

 

Annnnd--Boobsy. I've got to agree that the only thing that makes any sense is a time-travel plot. Because this actress is presumably being directed to perform and sound this way, and those are the lines she was given, and apparently public makeout sessions with a gentleman not your spouse was no big deal in the day if you're a time-traveling idiot who didn't do even one cursory Wikipedia search before heading off. There is absolutely no way she wouldn't have been hounded out of town otherwise. No respectable family would have associated with her and no man mindful of his reputation be seen with her.

[Julia]

Does anyone know if Michael Dorn is busy? Because he gives good badass, and he could absolutely roll with the crazy on this show. And then I would get to watch Michael Dorn (profit!)

[HalcyonDays]

Does anyone know if Michael Dorn is busy? Because he gives good badass, and he could absolutely roll with the crazy on this show. And then I would get to watch Michael Dorn (profit!)

 

I don't know. 6'3" Michael Dorn as father to 5 foot even Abbie?? Of course on this show, anything is possible. What about LeVar Burton? Or even better, since there is so much crazy - Avery Brooks! (he's probably too tall too).

[Julia]

I would consider both of those profitable scenarios as well :)

Abbie could have taken after mom. I don't see this as a bar. And Avery Brooks is far and away my favorite Captain, so. maybe she was exposed to an unshielded handwavium generator in the womb?

[bethy]

I appreciate people's suggestion that the Betsy/Ichabod scene at the end was a dream/hallucination of Crane's. That never occurred to me, but it makes sense. And it tempers my dislike of that character. A little. For the moment. 

[Clanstarling]

I don't know. 6'3" Michael Dorn as father to 5 foot even Abbie?? Of course on this show, anything is possible. What about LeVar Burton? Or even better, since there is so much crazy - Avery Brooks! (he's probably too tall too).

In terms of height, genetics isn't a sure thing. I'm shorter than both of my parents (dammit)  - and I knew a guy whose parents were both right around 5 feet tall who was 6 foot plus. Dorn would be pretty great. 

[HalcyonDays]

I would consider both of those profitable scenarios as well :)

Abbie could have taken after mom. I don't see this as a bar. And Avery Brooks is far and away my favorite Captain, so. maybe she was exposed to an unshielded handwavium generator in the womb?

 

DS9 is hands down the best Trek for me and Avery Brooks as Sisko was absolutely brilliant. So complex and my favourite Captain too! Excellent.

 

I assume they will just use the actor who Abbie actually took pictures of.

 

In terms of height, genetics isn't a sure thing. I'm shorter than both of my parents (dammit)  - and I knew a guy whose parents were both right around 5 feet tall who was 6 foot plus. Dorn would be pretty great.

 

Yeah, I'm shorter than my mom, but not my dad, but yeah, genetics are strange. Either way, this show does casting really well (90% of the time), so the person they choose will be really good.

 

Sigghhh...so Pandora's Sumerian now? Okay, but why couldn't they just give her a Sumerian name? Or stick with the Greek myth? Although her dad sounds a right piece of work, my God. And Sossamon continues to burn the place up with her performance--she genuinely comes across as "ohhh, wee lamb, with your little delusions of Witness-hood. That's so adorable. I will destroy you." Then heads off to watch her Fear Tree get all Poe-blossomed. This is a person who understands her goals.

 

There is a fantastic theory that the tree Pandora is growing is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that Ichabod and Abbie are Adam and Eve, and Pandora is the serpent of the Garden of Eden. At the very end of this episode, Pandora's face changes into something with very serpent like features.

[Julia]

Also, Hawk. The man could totally get his John Winchester on if called to. Just saying.

 There is a fantastic theory that the tree Pandora is growing is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that Ichabod and Abbie are Adam and Eve, and Pandora is the serpent of the Garden of Eden. At the very end of this episode, Pandora's face changes into something with very serpent like features.

Well, that would certainly explain the prelapsarian innocence thing.

[Miss Dee]

Should we start an Overarching Mythology Theories thread for this kind of speculation? So we can have fun with it all in the one place?

My hat is thrown in the ring for Tony Todd, Michael Dorn or Avery Brooks. I think Dorn is the frontrunner for me; for a guy whose biggest role is a Klingon, he has such a gentle manner about him for such an imposing size. I love the idea of him being the Elder Guide figure on this "quest", maybe someone who's devoted his life to studying this stuff and that plants into why he suddenly abandoned the family. And that way we'd have another plausible window into past events without Colonial! Crane having to encounter it previously with Betsy every single time they meet a monster.

[phoenics]

On drugs from broken foot (see small talk thread for details of you'd like) so I will keep it brief:

Scary scary monster. They did the pffft pffft pffft thing, the crawling up into corners of ceilings thing, and the creepy backbend head twisted thing.

When it crawled into the ceiling I screamed so loud I scared my mom.

BR gives me bad vibes. Especially if all she's pointing to is immigration chick. So not interested.

[Badsamaritan]

Jonathan Adams would be good as Papa Mills. He was on Bones in the first season as the head of the Jeffersonian and was also Vulcan Simmons on Castle.

I love this show, truly. The Tooth Fairy was super creepy. The scene with Pandora and Abbie - was there another voice under hers that was deeper? That was brilliantly filmed, very disconcerting and scary but also kinda tragic.

I'm getting the feeling Crane's lil crush lady is gonna turn out to be a whack job of the first order with him. She hasn't met Abbie yet, right? Seen them together? Yeah, she's gonna get cray real quick.

[Julia]

Jonathan Adams would be good as Papa Mills. He was on Bones in the first season as the head of the Jeffersonian

 

I never hated Cam,* but I think the decision to replace Dr. Goodman so Brennan would have to rely on Booth was the earliest tremor of the collapse of that show. I liked him a lot. I'm sorry he hasn't been in more since.

 

*I kind of like her, although in true Bones fashion, she lost about half her IQ and all her self-determination when she hooked up with Arastoo.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Julia

[gameoff]

...niece? I thought it was the nephew?

It was really dark, but I liked what i could see of the monster.

I think someone in another thread called it: Betsy Ross was out of time; she was a modern woman sent back to the Revolution. No other explanation for how out of place she was.

 

A couple years ago I finally turned the brightness setting up on my TV because it was so frustrating watching a show and missing half the details.  So many shows love to shoot in that semi-darkness moody type lighting and while I get that there's artistic merit for doing so I'd rather see what's going on and lose a bit of the "it's so dark and creepy" vibe.  That said, the monster of the week was terrifying.  Between the contortions of its body and the stop-start of the camera, I'm glad I watched in the daytime.  And also I'm very glad that (barring any horrible future dental issues) I should not be having any more tooth fairy visits :)

[sinkwriter]

I confess: I had to put the TV on mute as that little boy started walking toward his closet. I was like, "You better not hurt that kid!" LOL. I don't like when kids are traumatized, even if it's only for "pretend" on TV. Too hard to watch.

 

Crane visiting the dentist did amuse, though. 

 

 

There are those rare people out there with really strong enamel though, so they never get cavities no matter what, so it makes sense. They just naturally have good teeth. Lucky people.

 

So far, so good.  *knocks on wood*

 

There was this older woman who used to live next door to my parents in the same duplex when I was a baby, and she became an honorary grandparent to us as kids. Years and years later, I went to visit her in a nursing home apartment, and -- I'll never forget this because it cracked me up -- she complimented me on having "good teeth" and how she was proud that she was now in her 90's and still had all her own teeth and instructed me to try to do that too if I could manage it. LOL.

[TwistedandBored]

All I got from this episode was either Tom Mison kisses awkwardly onscreen or he has no chemistry with the women he is getting paired up with. Like Zero heat or sex appeal when he is kissing. Soo freaking weird. 

 

Also love The Mills sisters relationship. 

[HalcyonDays]

Should we start an Overarching Mythology Theories thread for this kind of speculation? So we can have fun with it all in the one place?

 

We're got one here - it fell onto the second page. The Mythological Twistory of Sleepy Hollow.

 

And of course the Spoilers and Speculation thread.

 

Just saw a screencap of when Pandora visited Abbie in the hospital. Her eyes look like serpents for a split second. Hmm....

[Julia]

We're got one here - it fell onto the second page. The Mythological Twistory of Sleepy Hollow.

 

And of course the Spoilers and Speculation thread.

 

Just saw a screencap of when Pandora visited Abbie in the hospital. Her eyes look like serpents for a split second. Hmm....

I put my theory in Spoilers.

[kminfinity]

I'm enjoying S3 a lot more than I expected, so count me among the 'renewed' fans.

 

I definitely think Ichabbie is Endgame if we get 5-7 seasons.  I kinda hope they don't do what Castle and Bones did and we don't get the relationship/marriage in medias res.  (I expect some in-epsiode commentary of this in the crossover.)  I think it will work better if there is a well developed reason they need to remain platonic, although some good old fashoned soap opera-ish subtext and pining could be good, sort of like if Buffy and Angel had stayed true to the mission and not ever hooked up.  I think some of the dialgue folks noted suggest this future path very well.

 

I also really like how much we are seeing Jennie as part of the team.  I'm not sold on Joe Corbin as a main cast player.  It also seems like FBI guy (can't remember his name) is being shoehorned in right now, but maybe there really is a strong, long term arc that will use these guys well.  I'm starting to have faith that I can move from episode love to season love.  ::crossing fingers::

 

Two nit-picks. 

 

First, I'd like a stronger 21st century situation for Crane.  Yes it's good they've established that he's living with Abbie and seeking citizenship, but I'd like to see him with his own cash (inherits an English Crane fortune?  I'm okay with hand-wavey backfill) and career (uses the furtune to establish that historical society and becomes a professor?)  I think the foreshadowing is there to make it happen and it will ground Crane better.

 

Second, I think by E4 it's time for a little more background on Pandora.  I like that we learned she's Sumerian, and the spec about her and the tree are good, but until we get some grand purpose for her she's coming off like a bratty mean girl rather than a true villain with an evil vision.  Again, I am not entirely ready to trust the long term arc for the season, so the sooner this happens the better I can anticipate what's coming.

 

 

[MissAlmond]

 

I assume they will just use the actor who Abbie actually took pictures of.

 

HalcyonDays, I'm sure that actor is just a placeholder until they cast the role of Papa Mills.  "Dynasty" did the same thing years ago when they introduced the character of Alexis Carrington before actually casting the role.  They just showed a woman dressed in black from head to toe (including a veil, IIRC) at the season finale and spend that summer looking for someone to actually play the part.  When Joan Collins was hired, they started the new season with her now in place of the previous extra in black.  That's why they keep showing that same photo of Papa Mills sitting on bench, surely the man isn't sitting in the same pose day after day, year after year unless his occupation is "living statue" LOL. 

 

 

Well, that would certainly explain the prelapsarian innocence thing.

 

Could somebody please, pretty please, post Pandora's entire speech to Abbie?  I had difficulty hearing it and one doesn't ignore the babblings of Pandora LOL.

 

MissAlmond

[MrsRafaelBarba]

There are some great suggestions here for Papa Mills.

Most tall, commanding voice and presence.

They should go that way, it would explain why Abbie was so close to Corbin Sr.

Played by Clancy Brown.

[Yolapukka]

Taking my Papa Mills thoughts to the "What Do You Think Will Happen" thread.

[Yolapukka]

My problem with Betsy's appearance this episode is that for a good chunk of it, she didn't really need to be there. There was no good reason her presence needed to be tied into Crane's memory of Paul Revere dealing with what turned out to the Ibizu. None. The only reason she was in those scenes was so they could tie the earlier flashbacks to the maybe a memory/ maybe an hallucination scene of Betsy and Ichabod macking after she apologized for shutting him out (WTF) and he apologized for presuming on their aquaintence. They could have ended with a similar moment without the clunkiness of making her presence more important to the Revere scenes than Crane and maybe that would have caused the writers to create better dialogue instead of that forced mess that tumbled out of their mouths. It sounded like bad fan-fic. Crane is already our view into the past, we don't need another character to provide that perspective. If they must use Betsy, then they should use her effectively and the scenes with the niece/nephew weren't effective, they just served to distance me from Crane's memory of the child with tooth problems. I can't say I really cared for the kiss scene, for several reasons, but it at least seemed less contrived than the earlier memory and the segue to the present made me laugh.

Edited October 25, 2015 by yuggapukka

[jhlipton]

But  I think they  should give  it a try.  I mean, I'd understand if they were  worried about ending up hurt, but it seems they were worried about inconveniencing him.  If that's really the worst scenerario, I say go for it. In  the  best case, they'll have a father.  In the worst  one, they just have to say  bye and leave.

 

I think they're more worried about harming his new family.  For them to find out he has 2 adult daughters could be devastating.  I think they need to assess the situation before dropping in -- "Hi Dad!"

I'm getting the feeling Crane's lil crush lady is gonna turn out to be a whack job of the first order with him. She hasn't met Abbie yet, right? Seen them together? Yeah, she's gonna get cray real quick.

 

Please no.  Just no.  A woman going "crazy" with jealousy over another woman's relationship with a man is just too ICK for me.

[phoenics]

Having been put under twice now over the last week, and still under the influence of drugs for my recovery, this may be a delusional theory or a stroke of genius:

Some of Betsy Ross' lines sounded like they came from what Abbie would say and how she'd say it. I wonder if Crane was projecting/imagining in this instance? Meaning even in his memories of the past in his drug induced state (that reflects your self-conscious), he's not thinking about SBR - he's more thinking of Abbie?

Wishful thinking?

Here's the thing. It's a really bad look on the show to give us Crane with a woman "partner" that TPTB see as okay to hook up, yet Ichabbie is off limits. That just makes no sense. And it's actually worse than the Katrina debacle when you put it through the lens of comparing partnerships. If they drag SBR to the present and they actually mean for us to take them seriously as a couple I will spit bricks.

Ugh. Pay no attention to me. I just took a bunch of meds and painkillers. Too much false hope.

Edited October 25, 2015 by phoenics

[vanarnd1]

I liked the episode, there were a lot of good interpersonal moments between the main characters. Any pair of Crane, Abbie, and Jenny make for a good scene and we Joe was used effectively in his moments as well. The tooth fairy was a good MOTW and the story line of the two sisters was a nice parallel to Abbie and Jenny's story line.

 

I also liked how they teased more about Pandora and that her motivations seem to involve Abbie in particular. It is kind of similar to Moloch in that way and I am looking forward to seeing how the story develops and how it affects Abbie and Ichabod personally as as witnesses.

 

Like others, I just had no use for the Betsy Ross scenes and don't understand having her speak in modern English unless it is some kind of time travel clue. And I thought the overdid the whole romance angle with Ichabod and Zoe. I think they were trying to have the texting come off as cute but when you compare the screentime it got compared to any Daniel/Abbie interaction there is still an imbalance there. I hope it gets evened out or they go more clearly in the Ichabbie direction as the season goes on,

[Commando Cody]

At this point the I think an ichabod/Abby relationship would seem kind of forced. I like the two of them working together, but I don't see the romantic chemistry. I don't see it with Ichabod and anyone else either. The Betsy Wetsy thing is kind of forced. I think if those two had a thing, they could have just kept mentioning it in passing rather than bringing in a useless character. That's why I don't mind the texting. We don't have to actually see Zoe.

 

I thought it was more interesting in earlier seasons when they chose different historical figures for Ichabod to interact with, rather than just Betsy. They didn't need her for the Paul Revere scene. Plus they gave Betsy relatives which made no sense all. Did her brother or sister time travel with her. Additionally, since she got them into this mess, is that why she has to watch the kids? I agree with the final scene with Betsy was just Ichabod being loopy. I was kind of surprised as well with the kissing out in the open, With the modern speech and the kissing, nothing about that scene seemed right. 

[fantique]

Sadly, this is an incorrect assumption.

 Yeah but even if she is terrible at inflections and accents, she can still freaking read. She can say the words and string them together in a sentence.

 

I'm getting the feeling Crane's lil crush lady is gonna turn out to be a whack job of the first order with him. She hasn't met Abbie yet, right? Seen them together? Yeah, she's gonna get cray real quick.

I am oscillating between predicting her death and predicting her being a baddie.

 

All I got from this episode was either Tom Mison kisses awkwardly onscreen or he has no chemistry with the women he is getting paired up with. Like Zero heat or sex appeal when he is kissing. Soo freaking weird.

It was super weird. The first kiss, I could accept because he was surprised but the second where he kissed her on purpose? Yikes.

 

Could somebody please, pretty please, post Pandora's entire speech to Abbie?  I had difficulty hearing it and one doesn't ignore the babblings of Pandora LOL.

Transcript of the scene (from http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=153&t=23264&sid=b1195e8112f71a0dcec1f6b4df95571f)

• Pandora: Hello, Sleepyhead.
• Abbie: What the hell are you doing here? 
• Pandora: Shh. There's no need for that. There's no need for any of it. But we fight and we fight and we fight, don't we? And then we get hurt. Poor thing. 
• Abbie: As long as you keep attacking children... I will keep fighting.
• Pandora: You're not like the others, are you? And you don't crave mortality. Not your own or your sister's or even your fellow Napalutu. (echoing): Napalutu... And yet you fight. You fight like you have something to lose. So what is it, my brave one? What is the one pesky thing that you cannot accept to lose? It can't be your mother. We know what happened to her. Then what about your father? (monitor beeping faster) Mm. God spoke to my father. Told him to beat me. Until I forgot all language. When I tired of it... he sold me to slavery, boasting of my prelapsarian innocence. But then... when I learned how to speak again, I convinced my owner to feed my father to his lion. And it was sadder than I expected. But I suppose that's that parent-child bond. Well... I do hope that you didn't grow too attached to those two little girls. Such a tragedy.

 

Here's the thing. It's a really bad look on the show to give us Crane with a woman "partner" that TPTB see as okay to hook up, yet Ichabbie is off limits. That just makes no sense. And it's actually worse than the Katrina debacle when you put it through the lens of comparing partnerships. If they drag SBR to the present and they actually mean for us to take them seriously as a couple I will spit bricks.

Ugh. Pay no attention to me. I just took a bunch of meds and painkillers. Too much false hope.

The problem is more that they are spending quite a bit a screentime on his two love interests and hers is colleague zoning her hard and is seen for 5 seconds. If one has a  love interest the other needs one too. Otherwise it's just not freaking fair. As for the comparison thing, 1) we don't know how it ended and 2) even if Ichabod somehow came to the conclusion that it's OK to date your partner, Abbie definitely hasn't.

 

Like others, I just had no use for the Betsy Ross scenes and don't understand having her speak in modern English unless it is some kind of time travel clue. And I thought the overdid the whole romance angle with Ichabod and Zoe. I think they were trying to have the texting come off as cute but when you compare the screentime it got compared to any Daniel/Abbie interaction there is still an imbalance there. I hope it gets evened out or they go more clearly in the Ichabbie direction as the season goes on,

Yeah, I don't see the point of Reynolds right now. I feel like they wanted to give Ichabod LI and knew they were going to get shit from it if Abbie didn't get any so they announced him as such and when they got shit from Ichabod's LI being a regular they promoted him as a regular. I thought he was going to be there to represent Abbie's desire to follow her dreams. So far, Nicole has played Abbie as hesitant and uncertain when it comes to the destiny and prophecy aspect of the mission (which I interpret as being because it's getting more and more obvious that she won't get the "normal" life she wanted, and the fight no longer has a time-stamp for its expiration date). All he's done so far is send mixed signals of putting her in inappropriate situations while repeating that their fling doesn't matter. They don't even dwell on Abbie's reaction and thoughts on it (she always seems wary and then relaxes when he draws the line, though she looks slightly hurt he is so eager to say how little it meant). It's actually quite a wasted opportunity of sister bonding scenes, or heck even more of the roommate sitcom portion of the show with Ichabod, to not have someone grilling her about it. Come on, since when does Ichabod mind his business? I got distracted by the much more interesting reveal about her father but now I am really wondering why he's on my screen. 

Although I give them points for this (quote from the io9 recap for Whispers in the dark),

But of all the love interests this show has ever fumblingly offered her, he seems the most feasibly like someone Abbie might actually have dated in terms of personality: smart, driven, and more tactful than she is. This can go however it goes.

I really want them to give more time to this character or do away with him. ETA: To be fair-er, I just saw on someone's tumblr that there was a scene cut between the two of them this past episode so I guess it's even worse, there might be a bunch of stuff developing we're not privy to because the writers, directors or whoever edited this episode (and maybe previous ones) don't think this is important stuff. Ah the frustration!!!

Edited October 26, 2015 by fantique

[DJG1122]

Prelapsarian refers to the time before the Fall of Man, The time of innocence in the Garden.Pandora speaks of God telling her father to beat her until she forgot all languages. When she tired of that, he sold her into slavery, boasting of her 'prelapsarian innocence'.

She also said Abbie wasn't like the others; that Abbie didn't crave mortality.(???) Is she saying Abbie is immortal?

Can't find Napalutu. Any ideas? I did find Utu/Shamash the Sumerian sun god.

Edited October 26, 2015 by DJG1122

[blixie]

This episode was okay, the Jenny/Abbie scenes were good, and the scene with Pandora/Abbie, but this show needs to understand how many fucks I give about Betsy Ross and the flash backs: ZERO. ZERO FUCKS. 

 

The Ichabbie was sorely lacking here too, I feel like they're handing out crumbs just to shut the fandom up while they tell their boring story of the week about Betsy. I can't be here for that.

Edited October 26, 2015 by blixie

[Julia]

Prelapsarian refers to the time before the Fall of Man, The time of innocence in the Garden.Pandora speaks of God telling her father to beat her until she forgot all languages. When she tired of that, he sold her into slavery, boasting of her 'prelapsarian innocence'.

 

True. But Cain and Abel came after the fall, so if there was a child in the garden, it had to be the child of Adam's first wife Lilith (who interestingly enough was a sumerian goddess).

[bethy]

She also said Abbie wasn't like the others; that Abbie didn't crave mortality.(???) Is she saying Abbie is immortal?

 

 

I didn't understand the implication of Abbie's not craving "mortality" like the others. Who craves mortality? I thought she'd said "immortality" at first, but on rewatch I realized I was wrong. Abbie not craving immortality makes more sense to me because of humanity's general desire to live forever in some form or another.

[DJG1122]

Julia, I think you are on to something here. Pandora may also BE Lilith. Lilith is usually depicted as either a woman with a snake coiled around her or half woman-half snake. I found a website that asked "What do Lilith, Eve and Pandora have in common?" The answer is all were the First Woman in the world according to Jewish and Greek mythology, all were created by a god or gods and all brought tribulation to mankind.

Bethy, that's what I thought also. I had to read the transcript several times, making sure it was 'mortality' and not "immortality". Weren't the Fallen Angels craving mortality (or at least accepting it) to be with the daughters of Man? Pandora said to Abbie, "And yet you fight. You fight like you have something to lose". Fight as in fighting against evil like she has something to lose?

I would love to know what a napalutu is.

Edited October 26, 2015 by DJG1122

[topanga]

Does Tom Mison not enjoy kissing scenes? Ichabod's smooches are not winning me over. 

Oh, man, now you've got me imagining how a Tom Mison kiss would play if he were kissing an actor he actually has chemistry with. (Closes eyes and starts mantra: "I'm not a shipper, not a shipper, not a shipper.")

 

It seems like I'm in the minority, but I actually didn't like this week's episode much. It was a little slow for my taste. The tooth fairy scenes were creepy, and I liked those, but I didn't see advancement of the overall story arc (Is there an overall story arc this season?). I liked that we heard Abbie and Crane discuss in the previous episode that they don't know what Pandora's overall goal is, either. But as an audience member, I'm getting a little bored with the random MOTW. In Season 1, even the seemingly random monsters (Sandman, for example) played a larger role in bringing about the Apocalypse. I wish I knew the greater purpose of this season's monsters, other than causing grey roses to bloom.

[DJG1122]

Just a little tidbit-don't know where to put this. Moloch was a Fallen Angel, cast out of Heaven.

[LeeLeePanda]

Mrs OldManBalls, on 23 Oct 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Does Tom Mison not enjoy kissing scenes? Ichabod's smooches are not winning me over.

Oh, man, now you've got me imagining how a Tom Mison kiss would play if he were kissing an actor he actually has chemistry with. (Closes eyes and starts mantra: "I'm not a shipper, not a shipper, not a shipper.")

It's funny, one of the first things I ever saw Tom Mison in was The Secret Diary of Call Girl with Billie Piper. His love screen with Piper was one of the hottest things I'd ever seen. I wish I could find a link, but it's hard to find online. Trust me, I was fanning myself. I personally feel like he's just not playing up the kissing scenes between him and Betsey for some reason.

[sinkwriter]

I found a link on Youtube, LeeLeePanda. It's got Spanish (text) subtitles on it, but some of the scenes are there. It's an age restricted video because of the content though, so I don't know if people will have trouble accessing it? He starts off in the first couple scenes of the clip, and comes back around 5:15 or so.

 

I remember the sexy part of the later scene, but I forgot how excruciating the first scene is to watch (when she's being all glam call girl and that's not what he wanted or was comfortable with, LOL).

Edited October 26, 2015 by sinkwriter

[Snookums]

True. But Cain and Abel came after the fall, so if there was a child in the garden, it had to be the child of Adam's first wife Lilith (who interestingly enough was a sumerian goddess).

 

 

I read that as Pandora's father bragging that she was innocent in that she had no language (since it was beaten out of her) and thus could not form plots, schemes, or desires, since she had no way to express them, rather than she was literally of the first days of creation. The perfect slave, until she convinces her new owner that you're a huge dickwad and he should feed you to his lion. 

 

So far my read on Pandora is that of a formerly horribly abused mortal woman whose method of taking back her own power and desire is achieving immortality through her own will--that is, becoming a witch and living on through the ages, spreading pain and fear and trouble. That's what was beaten into her, that's what she knows, that's what she does. She probably took the name Pandora deliberately rather than it being her actual given name, if she can even remember what that is. 

[DeLurker]

Having been put under twice now over the last week, and still under the influence of drugs for my recovery, this may be a delusional theory or a stroke of genius:

Those things aren't mutually exclusive!