S06.E02: JSS

[gaPeach]

So THAT'S why they put the easily climbable angled supports on the outside of the wall, rather than the inside where they would clearly be more efficient. I've been wondering about that since the gang arrived in Alexandria.

 

 

That design has bugged me so much.  When have we ever seen a fort build with the supports on the OUTSIDE?  I mean I am no engineer but even I know you do not do that.  Whatever you are protecting yourself from can either climb up the supports or push them down with little or actually no resistance.  So even if they thought the only threat was walkers you get enough of them in a group and they start pushing towards the dinner bell that wall will be down in no time.

 

Put me on the list of those that do not see Morgan as a coward or weak.  He has somehow come to believe that all life is precious even for people that are killing and hacking up innocent people.  Why?  I assume there will be a flashback showing us who taught him those bad ass moves and why he believes in giving everyone 2nd, 3rd even 4th chances before killing them.  I also believe he killed that Wolf in the house.  After getting the best of the Wolf he kept pushing the Wolf guy back until he did that frustrated grunt/scream and then said "I am sorry".  I took it to mean "Dude I have given the allotted amount of chances and you are now out of them and I can see you are hell bent on killing me so bye" and he killed him.  I sure hope so anyway.

 

And I do not think Morgan is leaving town.  He did not have his backpack or jacket and that packed lunch did not look like it was enough to feed him long enough for a road trip. I am hoping he is getting ready for the zombies headed their way.  And didn't he tell Carol that they had to take the zombies out because of the truck falling?

Edited October 19, 2015 by gaPeach

[mmecorday]

This one really scared me! I haven't been so scared since "Toy Story 3." (Come on, that scene where it appears Woody and his pals are about to be incinerated? Yikes!)

 

Also, is that stick that Morgan carries around what's left of the Wicked Witch's broom? Because he sure did get back to Alexandria fast.

 

I really don't care for angsty Enid. Tough that she lost her parents that way, but they were really dumb to ignore her warning that they were about to be lunch. How did she not get salmonella from eating raw turtle? I did not know that on the inside, turtles are full of chicken bones.

[JackONeill]

People have wondered why Enid left. I think she stated it in simple terms: It's not safe. Isn't she the one that said that the area's too big to safeguard? That was before so many of the people were killed. Now they have even fewer people to watch the gates. (Yes, I realize that most of our people were off making the Walker-walk-about. Of course, I don't know if Enid knew that at the time. Apparently, no one knew that. Again, our crew = highly synchronized and always on the same page.) But, point is, she knows the place is doomed to fall. (Kind of like what Rick thinks, deep-down.

 

Also, what did Morgan have in the blue box when he left? Was that his lunch box? DId he get miffed and take his Lorna Doones somewhere else? Maybe he went into the woods to make palsies with the Wolves.

[dannymoon]

Now they have even fewer people to watch the gates. (Yes, I realize that most of our people were off making the Walker-walk-about. Of course, I don't know if Enid knew that at the time. Apparently, no one knew that. Again, our crew = highly synchronized and always on the same page.)

 

No one knew where Rick and team were? I figured they knew that they were out practicing their dry run, but they certainly don't know that all hell broke loose in the form of a falling 18-wheeler, and then the loud horn, and walkers are now walking their way.

Edited October 19, 2015 by dannymoon

[SoSueMe]

Haven't caught up on reading the thread yet, apologies if this has been mentioned. I'm a big Carol fan and I'll need to go back and re-watch. I got a big kick out of her tough-love counseling to Sam on the porch steps. Had he found his way there to seek comfort from Carol, lol? That was her place, right?

[janie2002]

I think this would have been the best way for Father Pee Pants to die, I wish they would finally get rid of him. He deserved it more than any of the Alexandrians.

[ChipBach]

I thought I detected some recognition between some of the Wolves and Morgan which is why I thought he was so adamant about sparring their lives or apologizing to the one he had to (presumably) kill.  Maybe Morgan knew the group before they went full on cray-cray?

Edited October 19, 2015 by ChipBach

[kelslamu]

I thought Morgan said he learned it from a chaise maker.  Cheese will do as well though.

[Yolapukka]

 

Speaking of which, Deanna & Maggie were outside the wall discussing planting a garden in an area that was due for expansion. Shouldn't the first priority be fixing all those blind spots that even Enid spotted? And if Rick put the kibosh on recruiting, why did they need to expand? (Just so Eugene could say, "It hams my biscuits is all"?)

 

Fixing the blind spots Enid was referencing would mean tearing down the houses inside the compound. The first priority needs to be shoring up the defences of the community, which means establishing a second perimeter around the current walls. Preferably that would involve another wall, this time with supports on the inside. It also allows them use the space within the expanded community for practical purposes, like gardening. Presumably they'd also have better sight-lines to spot invaders who made it within the first tier since there are fewer buildings and some of the derelict burnt-out ones should be torn down.

 

As well as physical security, they need food security, The teams foraging for prepared food have to travel further and further to obtain supplies, they face increased risks due to travel and eventually they'll hit a point where there is very little to glean. Crops are easy if they have the space to grow them. I doubt livestock is practical, it was a draw for walkers when they kept pigs at the prison. I'm wondering if they could even find any domestic animals still alive. Game will probably be their best source of meat.

[Bruinsfan]

Essentially four people saved ASZ: Carol, Morgan, Rosita and Aaron. Two women, two people of (different) colors, and only one white male. In a town/group that is predominately white, that's pretty good. ETA: Sorry, meant two people of color, and two different colors at that :)

The Wolves basically got their asses kicked by a Bennetton ad and ran away with their tails between their legs—I love it!

[JackONeill]

This is the second or third time this show has done this. The first time was on Herschel's farm and the next (and most noticeable) time was at the prison. WE have characters we don't really know. (On Herschel's farm there were a few people that had names but that was about it. Then they died.) At the prison, Rick brought back some people form Woodbury. But then they got killed.

 

Nearly all the people who got killed last night we didn't even really know. We had to struggle this morning to put some names with some faces.  If I'm not mistaken, I think I saw a few men try to engage the Wolves, only to get quickly killed. I had no idea who they were; therefore, it didn't affect me in the same way when as when Tyrese or Noah died (both non-A-team).

 

Sure, the episode was still good, but it was because of the wanton brutality displayed. But just think how we'd feel if we knew some of them. For instance, if one had been Aaron, or Reg (if he'd lived), or even Pete (if he'd lived).

[nodorothyparker]

I thought I detected some recognition between some of the Wolves and Morgan which is why I thought he was so adamant about sparring their lives or apologizing to the one he had to (presumably) kill.  Maybe Morgan knew the group before they went full on cray-cray?

 

Morgan let the Wolves who attacked him in the season five finale live even after they babbled their crazy at him and made it clear they had intended to kill him and would be doing more killing if given the opportunity.  Two of them were among the attackers in this episode, including the long-haired guy he finally did kill at the end.

 

Anything's possible since we don't know what he'd been up to before he met Daryl and Aaron, but I didn't read anything more into it than that.

[Cindylou]

 

 

 

My first thought was Carol was daydreaming, because I could've sworn Machete Man was the splitting image of Ed.

 

 

 

 

 THIS X100!!!!!  I totally saw Ed for a second.

 

I think Morgan is taking Rick's journey, he just hasn't gotten there yet.  I am hoping he will because he is one of the characters I LOVE a lot, and really you can't get rid of the bad ass bow staff guy!  Every group needs one of those!

 

this episode so tense!  watched it this morning before work.....  ppl need to watch OUT today!  lol

[Constantinople]

Aside from Carol's stealth killing tactics, I also enjoyed two other Carol moments in the episode:

 

• When she told Pete's younger son, "Your dad used to hit you and then he got himself killed.  It happened.  Now it's done.  You live with it or it eats you up."  Hell of a pep talk Carol.
   
• That her casserole was perfectly timed to come out of the oven immediately after the attack was over.  I can almost imagine the recipe.  It was Carl, not Carol who took out the casserole, but that's good home management.  You don't leave something baking in the oven unattended.  Besides, now that I think about it, you can't spell casserole without Carol or Carl).
   

Of course, one always wants more.  I wish Carol had said "Look at the flowers" when she snuck up on someone from behind and shot him (or her) in the back of the head.

[JackONeill]

 

As well as physical security, they need food security, The teams foraging for prepared food have to travel further and further to obtain supplies, they face increased risks due to travel and eventually they'll hit a point where there is very little to glean. Crops are easy if they have the space to grow them. I doubt livestock is practical, it was a draw for walkers when they kept pigs at the prison. I'm wondering if they could even find any domestic animals still alive. Game will probably be their best source of meat.

How about a herd of tortoises?!?

[nodorothyparker]

It was Carl, not Carol who took out the casserole, but that's good home management.

 

Unlike the bad old days of Lori forever misplacing him when Carol told Carl to stay in the house, he didn't venture much farther than the front walk to shoot the attacker.  And promptly came right back.

[Timetoread]

I think the reason the show made characters like Father Pee-Pants, Tyresse and Morgan into such… pacifists, is because they don’t want to do the “angry black man” trope. I mean, Tyresse got angry that one time someone set his girlfriend on fire, which is the kind of reaction you would expect from anyone in that situation, and some of the audience was like “oh no, it’s the ‘angry black man’ trope“. Now the problem is the writers skew too far the other way and made pretty much all the black men too soft for this world. No matter what they do, some people are gonna be unhappy with it.

 

Sorry but no.  This is the exactly the problem with Hollywood today.  This idea that they can only write black men as tropes.  If one doesn't work, use the other one, and if that doesn't work, give up because black people are just always going to be angry.  The character Morgan has been around since the very first episode and, as originally written, was just fine and didn't inspire the ire of the black community.  Tyrese would have been fine except the writers didn't know whether or not to make him a raging bull or Ferdinand the Bull - none of his reactions to anything were logical to the viewer.  If Sasha had been murdered, then we, the viewer would have understood that level of rage and existential angst.  We had no connection to Karen and it felt out of place and it grated.  

 

The problem is not which trope to use, it is that, when it comes specifically to black males on this show, they are either cannon fodder or weak in a way that none of the other male castmembers are and thus stick out specifically for their weakness.  And worse, they always seem to juxtapose this man (whichever number Black Guy he happens to be) with Carol in the most insulting way.  TBone's only two lines in the whole series was that he would die to save Carol.  Tyrese was equal parts victimized by Carol (since she was his girlfriend's murderer), protected by him so that he could squee from walkers and hold the baby, and showed up by him as she was the hero of Terminus and he was the Judas whose inaction got Bob eaten.  And of course he had to forgive her because god forbid Carol actually suffer the consequences of her own actions both personally and narratively (she really has become the Mary Sue of this show).  Now we have Morgan, who would rather watch a thousand men die than be the one to kill their killer, and Carol is going to be his teacher and embodiment of true strength and heroism.  Whatevs!  

 

If Morgan has an arc, I don't care to see it.  Because too many lives were lost for him to make a philosophical point.  Because he sent the killers away, better armed than they came.  Because Rick's son and infant daughter were in that town with rabid killers running amok while their father was miles away.  But he didn't think of any of this.  No, he had a point to prove.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.  Playing Ninja Turtle while women and children die around you makes you squarely part of the problem - particularly in this world.  He's dead to me.  Time for Black Guy #17.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Timetoread

[kj4ever]

Unlike the bad old days of Lori forever misplacing him when Carol told Carl to stay in the house, he didn't venture much farther than the front walk to shoot the attacker.  And promptly came right back.

And Sam stayed in a freakin' closet when told!  Things are looking up for the kids of the ZA.  I used to wish Carl would die every episode before Season 4!

Sorry but no.  This is the exactly the problem with Hollywood today.  This idea that they can only write black men as tropes.  If one doesn't work, use the other one, and if that doesn't work, give up because black people are just always going to be angry.  The character Morgan has been around since the very first episode and, as originally written, was just fine and didn't inspire the ire of the black community.  Tyrese would have been fine except the writers didn't know whether or not to make him a raging bull or Ferdinand the Bull - none of his reactions to anything were logical to the viewer.  If Sasha had been murdered, then we, the viewer would have understood that level of rage and existential angst.  We had no connection to Karen and it felt out of place and it grated.  

 

The problem is not which trope to use, it is that, when it comes specifically to black males on this show, they are either cannon fodder or weak in a way that none of the other male castmembers are and thus stick out specifically for their weakness.  And worse, they always seem to juxtapose this man (whichever number Black Guy he happens to be) with Carol in the most insulting way.  TBone's only two lines in the whole series was that he would die to save Carol.  Tyrese was equal parts victimized by Carol (since she was his girlfriend's murderer), protected by him so that he could squee from walkers and hold the baby, and showed up by him as she was the hero of Terminus and he was the Judas whose inaction got Bob eaten.  And of course he had to forgive her because god forbid Carol actually suffer the consequences of her own actions both personally and narratively (she really has become the Mary Sue of this show).  Now we have Morgan, who would rather watch a thousand men die than be the one to kill their killer, and Carol is going to be his teacher and embodiment of true strength and heroism.  Whatevs!  

 

If Morgan has an arc, I don't care to see it.  Because too many lives were lost for him to make a philosophical point.  Because he sent the killers away, better armed than they came.  Because Rick's son and infant daughter were in that town with rabid killers running amok while their father was miles away.  But he didn't think of any of this.  No, he had a point to prove.  If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.  Playing Ninja Turtle while women and children die around you makes you squarely part of the problem - particularly in this world.  He's dead to me.  Time for Black Guy #17.

I don't agree with everything you said here, but this was a very thought out post that makes me really look at certain things differently.

[JackONeill]

The Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

 

Last night I didn't think about it.  But this morning I did.

 

When Carl shot the Wolf in the leg, but then went out to engage him, and the Wolf grabbed the barrel of the rifle, think about this: Carl should still be the age and size he was when the show started (plus a few years). So think about how that would have played out, and the increased tension. Instead, you have this rather tall kid playing against a Wolf who is of near-equal height.

 

Just a minor observation. (That's me: Mister Minor.)

Edited October 19, 2015 by JackONeill

[lulee]

I didn't take it as Carol V Morgan to show one is better than the other. I took it as philosophical differences in how to deal with the Unfair Wolves.

Agreed. Characters on this show are on a continuum (well, I'm not sure that continuum is the best word, but it'll do) in their adjustment to the ZA world. The Alexandrians of the world have transitioned little. Rick has transitioned a lot.

Morgan has been alone for much of the ZA. He hasn't been part of a society and the judgments that are involved when it's threatened. He wasn't stupid or afraid -- he was in an unfamiliar situation. It was an equation and he didn't have the numerical values to plug in for the variables. It was about particular experiences and situations.

 

Maybe Morgan's hesitancy to kill stems from having been alone for so long after his son's death. He didn't want there to be fewer humans remaining in the world -- keep them alive and give them another chance.

Edited October 19, 2015 by lulee

[TattleTeeny]

Well, the episode proved that the wolves really were unfair.

Can we ship Eugene and the new doctor lady?

Was there ever a "wolves unfair"? Because the graffiti on the wall said "wolves not far." Even so, the phrase "wolves unfair" seems so familiar to me. 

[lulee]

Was there ever a "wolves unfair"? Because the graffiti on the wall said "wolves not far." Even so, the phrase "wolves unfair" seems so familiar to me. 

It's a forum joke after posters misread the graffiti about the wolves.

 

Plus, they're super unfair.

[JackONeill]

I've also been meaning to ask: Where does Carol come up with her outfits?  For Terminus it was a poncho, wasn't it? Then last night, it was one of those slickers that cowboys used to wear and a bandana over her mouth.

All we needed was the music from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. In fact, I fully expected to hear it when she and Morgan passed. (Morgan kind of looks like Lee Van Cleef.)

[Boofish]

In a way I admire Morgan for not giving into the pack mentality and just kill kill and kill some more. I think we are seeing the same Morgan that could have easily shot Rick episode 1 (or left him to his own devices) but he didn't. But he has a conflicting spirit - one week it's "all life is precious" and the next it's "you said we don't take chances anymore" Those two philosophies cannot live coherently in this new world. And even though I GUFFAWED for a good 10 minutes when Carol refused to use one of her f*&@ on FPP I felt Morgan did the right thing. I think even Rick would have helped him. 

[TattleTeeny]

It's a forum joke after posters misread the graffiti about the wolves.

 

Plus, they're super unfair.

THANK YOU! I bet I misread it too (even though I read for living)! And, yes, I'd say those Wolves are about the unfairest of them all!

[Caelicola]

The problem is not which trope to use, it is that, when it comes specifically to black males on this show, they are either cannon fodder or weak in a way that none of the other male castmembers are and thus stick out specifically for their weakness.  And worse, they always seem to juxtapose this man (whichever number Black Guy he happens to be) with Carol in the most insulting way.  TBone's only two lines in the whole series was that he would die to save Carol.  Tyrese was equal parts victimized by Carol (since she was his girlfriend's murderer), protected by him so that he could squee from walkers and hold the baby, and showed up by him as she was the hero of Terminus and he was the Judas whose inaction got Bob eaten.  And of course he had to forgive her because god forbid Carol actually suffer the consequences of her own actions both personally and narratively (she really has become the Mary Sue of this show).  Now we have Morgan, who would rather watch a thousand men die than be the one to kill their killer, and Carol is going to be his teacher and embodiment of true strength and heroism.  Whatevs!  

While you do make valid points, I disagree that black men are weak in a way no white man is. If what Morgan showed in this episode is weakness, if Tyreese's kindness was weakness, then Hershel and Dale were equally weak, and yet their legacy in the show is "wise moral compass", not "weak old dude". I'd also make a distinction between the audience seeing Tyreese as Judas and the narrative making him Judas, because his lie didn't really change much of Bob's fate, and if the Termites hadn't been hellbent on killing CDB there would still be a group of cannibals on the loose, so ultimately Tyreese lying about gum-chewing douche not only didn't kill Bob, but rid the world of a bunch of horrible murderers, even if indirectly. The thing is, the audience is absolutely free to hate both Tyreese and Morgan for their moral standing, but I don't think the narrative itself ever presented it as reprehensible and unforgivable, just a coping mechanism to keep at least part of their sanity intact.

I won't even try to defend what they did to T-Dog, because they just used him as set dressing until they decided to kill him off just so the audience wouldn't expect Lori's death in the same episode, and that's just gross.

[magemaud]

Now I'm really confused. Last week I had remarked on the fake looking church steeple in the background of a B&W segment of the episode. In this episode, Spencer fires at the semi from inside a burned out, steeple-less church. And wasn't there some conversation about "rebuilding the church"? 

[Boofish]

This episode was so violently intense, it's got me all Pepperjacked up!

Season 6 is Gouda be good

[lulee]

I've also been meaning to ask: Where does Carol come up with her outfits?  For Terminus it was a poncho, wasn't it? Then last night, it was one of those slickers that cowboys used to wear and a bandana over her mouth.

All we needed was the music from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. In fact, I fully expected to hear it when she and Morgan passed. (Morgan kind of looks like Lee Van Cleef.)

Last night's outfit was from the Wolf called "Aphid." I think he was the one who stabbed Carol's pantry friend. Carol stabbed him, mercy-killed her and then put on his clothes to walk around under the radar.

[SoSueMe]

Was there ever a "wolves unfair"? Because the graffiti on the wall said "wolves not far." Even so, the phrase "wolves unfair" seems so familiar to me.

Right, it was a trick of the eye seeing the graffiti against the bricks. It looked like "wolves not fair" at a quick glance. Some of us just found the thought of unfair wolves hilarious.

http://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/the-walking-dead-wolves-not-far-michonne-amc.jpg?w=400&h=328

[gaPeach]

Maybe Morgan's hesitancy to kill stems from having been alone for so long after his son's death. He didn't want there to be fewer humans remaining in the world -- keep them alive and give them another chance.

 

But Morgan admitted to Rick his inability to kill his Zombie wife eventually led to the death of his son.  We have seen Rick go through this same dilemma by sparing someone's life it killed others.  Maybe this is Morgan's journey to finding a medium between mercy and survival.  Because I don't care how forgiving you want to be if someone one's only mission is to kill me I see no room for mercy because my survival instincts will take over.  Unless I want just sacrifice myself for the good of being merciful to men that have no mercy.....um not going to happen with this girl. Uh Oh no way.

[Cheetosandchoc]

I thought Morgan said he learned it from a chaise maker.  Cheese will do as well though.

Chaise is how Rick would pronounce it.

[mandolin]

On rewatch, the loud, continuous sounds really stood out to me: the truck horn, the machine when Holly died, and the timer at the end.

 

Also, when Morgan told FPP he wasn't good with a gun either, I could almost see him remembering how he wasn't able to shoot his wife. 

[Timetoread]

While you do make valid points, I disagree that black men are weak in a way no white man is. If what Morgan showed in this episode is weakness, if Tyreese's kindness was weakness, then Hershel and Dale were equally weak, and yet their legacy in the show is "wise moral compass", not "weak old dude". I'd also make a distinction between the audience seeing Tyreese as Judas and the narrative making him Judas, because his lie didn't really change much of Bob's fate, and if the Termites hadn't been hellbent on killing CDB there would still be a group of cannibals on the loose, so ultimately Tyreese lying about gum-chewing douche not only didn't kill Bob, but rid the world of a bunch of horrible murderers, even if indirectly. The thing is, the audience is absolutely free to hate both Tyreese and Morgan for their moral standing, but I don't think the narrative itself ever presented it as reprehensible and unforgivable, just a coping mechanism to keep at least part of their sanity intact.

I won't even try to defend what they did to T-Dog, because they just used him as set dressing until they decided to kill him off just so the audience wouldn't expect Lori's death in the same episode, and that's just gross.

 

Hershel and Dale would fight for their lives and for the lives of others.  Morgan was more interested in his philosophy than saving others and he stood around glowering testifying from his soapbox instead of running to the aid of the screaming people.  Tyrese was a selfish liar and the Termites would have never come to that church calling out CDB by name if he had just told any one of them that he beat up the guy but did not kill him.  He lied to protect himself.

[RedheadZombie]

That Enid is a fool. Carl is really turning into husband material. He kills the wolf, protects Judith and get the casserole out on time. Looks like next week they may have to brown bag it and take it to go.

 

If Enid isn't a wolf, she's a good match for Carl.  She's a survivor.

 

There were three people whose death would cause me to stop watching this show: Rick, Daryl and Carol. That list is now down to one person. Team Carol for life.

 

My three faves were Carol, Rick, and Tyreese.  I handled Tyreese's death because I think it was a blessing for him to leave this world.  I've worried about Carol for a while now.  I have a very strong suspicion that Rick will die in the series finale, or shortly before it.  Daryl is safe as long as he's the fan favorite.  I think the truly untouchable character is Carl, who seems to be positioned to be John Connor.

 

And I do not think Morgan is leaving town.  He did not have his backpack or jacket and that packed lunch did not look like it was enough to feed him long enough for a road trip. I am hoping he is getting ready for the zombies headed their way.  And didn't he tell Carol that they had to take the zombies out because of the truck falling?

 

I wasn't sure what to make of Morgan walking away.  This morning, I think Morgan is probably getting back to the walker rodeo.  To help the others, but also to notify Rick of the attack of the wolves.  That may have only been the first wave.

 

Unlike the bad old days of Lori forever misplacing him when Carol told Carl to stay in the house, he didn't venture much farther than the front walk to shoot the attacker.  And promptly came right back.

 

Yes, but only when Enid told him to.  I was a little pissed that he left Judith vulnerable to help Ron.

[MrWhyt]

 Now we have Morgan, who would rather watch a thousand men die than be the one to kill their killer, and Carol is going to be his teacher and embodiment of true strength and heroism.  Whatevs!  

 

But that's not true. Morgan never stood bye and let the Wolves kill the Alexandrians. He fought the Wolves, he defended the people, he just doesn't want to kill.

[Grace284]

I really like that doctor. Almost as much as I like Carol's complete lack of patience with the restorative justice approach to the zombie apocalypse.

[GreyBunny]

Yes, but only when Enid told him to.  I was a little pissed that he left Judith vulnerable to help Ron.

 

I half expected to see Carl come back in the house to find Judith being kidnapped by a wolf or already dead.  I was ready to yell, "Coral, you had ONE JOB...!"

[Nutjob]

 

Morgan was more interested in his philosophy than saving others and he stood around glowering testifying from his soapbox instead of running to the aid of the screaming people.

I have to respectfully disagree with this--Morgan went to the aid of several people in this episode, including Gabriel after Carol told him to let him die.

 

The way I see it, Morgan is trying to be Batman. The problem is that if you can't even secure your own walls, how are you going to build holding facilities for every psycho that tries to kill your group and have enough man power to ensure they don't get free and, well, kill everyone in your group? When people in a situation like this are intent on killing you, they aren't going to give up. That's the lesson Morgan needs to learn.

 

Now, is there some racial bias that has lead Kirkman to giving Morgan this trait? I don't know, and I don't think there's any way to know. Noah certainly didn't fit this mold, and I'd also compare Morgan more to someone like Dale at this stage. I also think, though, that we will see a transformation--Morgan and Rick have been two sides of a coin on the zombie apocalypse learning curve, and I think we'll see Morgan catch up in the coming episodes.

 

I also don't begrudge Carol her badassery. It's nice to see a middle-aged, non-traditionally attractive woman given the role of butt-kicker on a show like this, where usually she'd be relegated to caring for the children and baking the casseroles. Carol just gets to do both! I enjoy her immensely.

[catrox14]

 

Also, when Morgan told FPP he wasn't good with a gun either, I could almost see him remembering how he wasn't able to shoot his wife. 

 

I thought the exact same thing. I thought it was an intentional call back to that moment.

[MaggieG]

I've been watching this show from the beginning and I'm usually not squeamish. Walkers eating faces off never seemed to bother be, but for some reason watching Enid chow down on that tortoise almost made me lose my dinner, blech. Enid is just strange to me. She seemed completely unaffected by the machete wielding psychos. Like "people are getting murdered outside so I think I'm peacing out, bye Carl." I agree with whoever said upthread that they were expecting her to stab Carl, I thought that too! I expected her to kidnap Judith on the way out

[ghoulina]

Unlike the bad old days of Lori forever misplacing him when Carol told Carl to stay in the house, he didn't venture much farther than the front walk to shoot the attacker.  And promptly came right back.

 

Because he KNOWS that, unlike with his mother, there WILL be consequences if he doesn't listen. Lori would have just whined and asked Dale to find him. 

 

 

 

But that's not true. Morgan never stood bye and let the Wolves kill the Alexandrians. He fought the Wolves, he defended the people, he just doesn't want to kill.

 

He left two of them tied up in a car, and they ended up coming to ASZ and killing  people. 

 

He "scared" a pack of them away from ASZ, but they are still alive and could easily come back. Or kill Rick and co. out on the road. 

 

In the time he took hog tying that one dude, three more Wolves could have been killed and ASZers could have been spared. 

 

I don't hate Morgan and I can't judge what he's going through, but I think his philosophy should NOT apply to all situations, and this is one where he needs to toss it aside and kill those unfair fuckers. 

 

 

 

 

Haven't caught up on reading the thread yet, apologies if this has been mentioned. I'm a big Carol fan and I'll need to go back and re-watch. I got a big kick out of her tough-love counseling to Sam on the porch steps. Had he found his way there to seek comfort from Carol, lol? That was her place, right?

 

Yea, I think Carol shares a house with Rick and Carl, maybe Michonne as well? I love how she is so cut and dry with Sam, but he keeps coming back. He recognizes that underneath it all, she's a woman who cares. If she didn't, she wouldn't give him all of her sage advice. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by ghoulina

[MrWhyt]

I don't hate Morgan and I can't judge what he's going through, but I think his philosophy should NOT apply to all situations, and this is one where he needs to toss it aside and kill those unfair fuckers. 

 

I agree, I think his "don't kill" stance is going to do more harm than good, but he wasn't standing around letting people die as the OP claimed when the Wolves attacked. He was defending them, just in a way that will bite them in the ass long term.

[RedheadZombie]

-  Ok, so was this the very first completely Rick-less episode of TWD (aside from the pre-show "Previously, on amc's The Walking Dead" intro)?? 

 

Someone upthread said Rick was barely in Season Four, and they were only half wrong.  Episodes without Rick:

 

• Live Bait - governor centric
• Dead Weight - governor centric with a Rick sighting at the end
• Inmates - all cast except Rick/Carl/Michonne group
• Still - the much maligned Beth/Daryl episode
• Alone - all cast except Rick trio and Carol/Tyreese/girls
• Grove - only Tyreese/Carol/girls

 

Season Five Rick-less episodes:

 

• Slabtown - Beth centric
• Self Help - Abraham's group/Maggie/Glenn/Tara
• Consumed - Daryl and Carol centric

 

Did we hear any of the Wolves' names other than Aphid?  I'm wondering if they all have bug names. 

 

[Boofish]

Zoolander was in a TOWER with a GUN and a KNIFE and couldn't even put down a disabled walker.

 

Eugene just about soiled his pants at the mere mention of going outside to help

 

Security was hiding in the closet in A ROOM FULL OF GUNS

 

FPP had two guns and someone had just saved his life yet he stood there like his feet was stuck in cement

 

Morgan is far from the coward in this situation

Edited October 19, 2015 by Boofish

[Timetoread]

But that's not true. Morgan never stood bye and let the Wolves kill the Alexandrians. He fought the Wolves, he defended the people, he just doesn't want to kill.

He most certainly did stand there arguing with Carol about the merits of pacifism, while the S was hitting the fan.  He beat up a few Wolves but he didn't save nearly the amount of people that he could have or should have.  His not wanting to kill is the same as Tyrese's not wanting to kill.  Both of them were/are liabilities in this world of kill or be killed.

[RainOnToosdays]

I don't buy Carl being dumb enough to nearly get suckered by that guy whining about the pain in his leg. I think he'd have just put one in his head.

 

I actually do as Carl is used to killing zombies.  Also this guy was injured and looking for help - remember back during the 1st governor's attack one of his soldiers, a teen, tried to surrender to Carl and Carl shot him.  Rick and Herschel lectured Carl on how bad that was.  

 

Carl will not make this mistake again.

 

This was my thought as well.  Unless I'm misremembering, the last living person Carl killed was the kid at the prison all the way back in season 3.  He lost his gun over that and had to spend a full half season playing farmer with Rick at Herschel's urging.  That probably left quite the impression on him.

 

Plus I'm also willing to buy that the very thing he was worried about when they first got to the ASZ, that returning to relative civilization would make them soft, may be coming into play.  Seemingly 15 minutes before he was out peacefully pushing his kid sister in the stroller. 

 

I was really taken aback at first that Carl didn't shoot him immediately. I had even told my husband after last weeks preview that my money is on Carl - noone is getting in that house or anywhere near the baby with Carl on the job! Hesitating and possibly sympathetic didn't seem like the Carl I've come to know/expect. However, after the re-watch, I think it was because of Enid. 

 

They had just had their little chat in the house, with him saying something like '"they all have to die" and Enid was all "Why? they are just people".  When he was facing off with the wounded wolf on the ground, Carl took his eyes off him momentarily to glance at Enid (which is what enabled the guy to get a hold of him). Then of course he had no choice, it was an up close & personal life or death situation. I think he had temporarily let his guard down because of Enid in the same way Daryl did back at the mortuary house because of Beth. They were both letting someone else's rose-colored glasses temper their natural tendencies. 

 

It makes me think of Rick wanting to shoot Jesse's husband but not doing so until Deanne gave him permission. Which in turn makes me think of Willard in Footloose not beating the crap out of the guys outside the dance until his gal Rusty gave him permission.  Not sure where I am going with this other than it all seems to tie together. Whether it's for political or strategic or romantic reasons, a man's innate instinct is often tempered by a woman. 

 

So I think yeah, it was because of Enid that Carl didn't blow the guy away right off. 

 

 

Unless I'm misremembering, the last living person Carl killed was the kid at the prison all the way back in season 3.

 

He shot Morgan, too. Morgan didn't end up dying but Carl was shooting to kill when he shot him. I wonder if Morgan knows that?

[Yolapukka]

I still can't connect the dots in the persistent theory that Enid is with the wolves, The timelines don't make sense to me, the glimpse we had of her background story makes it even less likely  and I've yet to see anything to suggest she would be aligned with a bunch of crackpot spree killers. She's a weird, unsettling kid, that's about it. The only common thread is both she and the wolves are familiar with letters of the alphabet. ZOMG!!! maybe dead-eyed little Sam is a wolf too, he sure likes that red A stamp, he even vandalized Carol's porch with it.

 

Quite a few of the wolves were women. I thought that a point was being made by that, they weren't just a marauding gang, like Randall or Joe's people but that they were a community of some sort, maybe they have a fixed base, maybe they move about a territory. Calling themselves Wolves has a suggestion of a nomadic lifestyle to me. Either way, with a fairly even mix of men and women, I'd expect that there would have been children, at least at some point. These people do not act like anyone who has an investment in the future, something children tend to represent.  Did they lose all their children or do they sacrifice them? They want to destroy what remains of humanity.

Edited October 19, 2015 by yuggapukka

[RedHackle]

I know that Morgan has a good reason for what he did but I can't stand that he's yet another Black man that has to be made to look like a weakling next to Queen Carol.  What the fuck???

Please allow me to offer an alternate POV.  I don't think that respecting human life shows weakness - just the opposite.  It's always easier to destroy than to build.  And though from our (the viewers) perspectives, you are right, and all Wolves need to die a whole lot, for his own sanity, Morgan is trying to see the value in all human life.   I appreciate that about him.  I don't think that makes him a weakling at all.  Certainly he's not afraid to take on 5 or so people at once.  Morgan has been one of my favorite characters since the pilot episode.  I also love and adore Carol. So I don't think it's necessary for characters to be measured with the same yard stick, as they bring their own unique experiences and opinions and baggage with them, just as people do in real life.

 

I do agree that this show sometimes appears to have a race problem with the way they tend to kill off black characters willy-nilly.  The thing is though, the characters themselves are well-written and fully rounded.  Which makes their deaths sting all the more.  Damn it, writers, black characters lives matter too!

[Ottis]

In a way I admire Morgan for not giving into the pack mentality and just kill kill and kill some more.

 

 

This is about all the show is still about, is it not? Because we are seeing the same plot points happen. The Wolves attacking, and the walkers who are coming, are not interesting. What is interesting is what the Wolves represent, vs. what Rick now represents, vs. the Alexandrians' perspective (which Rick had at the beginning), vs. what Abraham said about having a death wish, vs. (I imagine) someone eventually choosing to kill themselves. That's all the show is about anymore, where people stand in respect to what the point of life is in a ZA.