S02.E02: Rise Of The Villains: Knock, Knock

[Timetoread]

Yeah, I didn't get the firing scene either. Bruce can fire him from being the butler but he can't fire him being his legal guardian. Alfred really needs be a little more authoritative with Bruce. He's like 12 he doesn't get to make all the decisions, he's not legally old enough to do so. 

 

That was just his temper and Alfred playing along with it.  Bruce is an interesting case as a child.  He is very young but is such a serious kid who has suffered the worst possible tragedy.  On top of that, his name means EVERYTHING in this universe and he's trying to bear the load of it all.  I do wish, like you though, that Alfred would put him in his place every once in a while.  Discipling a child isn't about beating them down when they are bad, it is about showing them their boundaries.  If you are a good parent or guardian, it is safe inside those boundaries and the kid can relax mentally.  Baby Batman, psychologically at his core, is probably most in need of feeling safe and protected.

[paigow]

Alfred: Mr. Fox, would Radio Shack be a suitable place to find replacement parts?

Fox: No. We must go to the mountains of Japan - find a supplier named Ras-al-Ghul

[Delphi]

IIRC, Joker suffers a disfiguring mishap involving a chemical vat at some point in the future, making his outside as scary as his inside. They might not recognize "Jerome" at the offset.

Well, yeah he does. But still, instead of Gordon saying "we've no idea who this maniac is." He should be like, "he had the exact same mannerisms and horrible laughter as this circus kid who killed his mother then escaped an asylum where he proceeded to throw people off roofs and massacre the police department."

[Philbert]

 

Getting rid of Loeb ? Fine. But also Essen. and the Mayor too ? And were on Earth is Montoya ?

 

I think the Mayor is still alive, although he does have that box on his head.

[immortalfrieza]

As soon as Essen gave her speech, I said, "She'll be dead by the end of the season."  I was a little surprised that it happened by the end of the episode.

I knew Essen was dead the moment she was named Commissioner, I just didn't expect it this soon.  I knew it because Essen was a complacent but good competent cop, if she became Commissioner and stayed that way there would be no reason for Gordon to become Commissioner in the first place. Gordon only becomes Commissioner because that's the best place for him to do the most good in Gotham, but he still has quite a few years of running and fighting left in him so it's not time for him to become Commissioner anytime soon either.

 

I gave up on "The Walking Dead" because of the sense of hopelessness that pervades it, and I think I'm at that point with "Gotham", too.  The show last night really disturbed me, and that's not what I want from an entertainment program.

As I said in the wish thread a while back, the writers really should have started making Gotham get gradually better after all the darkness last season, only to make things go bad again right when the show is close to being wrapped up. Otherwise it makes NO sense whatsoever that the evil of Gotham just keeps mounting and there will even be a Gotham left for Batman to start to save in a couple decades, that there will be anyone willing to fight for it, and like you the audience will just not care anymore if they don't. At least they should have things go back and forth between over the top bad and "hey, this city might have a chance" good during the show's run.

Edited September 29, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[Philbert]

 

I gave up on "The Walking Dead" because of the sense of hopelessness that pervades it, and I think I'm at that point with "Gotham", too.  The show last night really disturbed me, and that's not what I want from an entertainment program.

 

I can certainly see where you're coming from here but I do think that's the point of the show. The whole storyline for this series is the descent into madness that follows the breaking down of the old system. Season One was about the end of the old order (the deaths of the Waynes and Maroni-the retirement of Falcone). Season two is about the bad guys coming out of the woodwork like so many demented cockroaches. It's going to get worse for quite some time until Batman shows up to stop it. 

[Jediknight]

I can certainly see where you're coming from here but I do think that's the point of the show. The whole storyline for this series is the descent into madness that follows the breaking down of the old system. Season One was about the end of the old order (the deaths of the Waynes and Maroni-the retirement of Falcone). Season two is about the bad guys coming out of the woodwork like so many demented cockroaches. It's going to get worse for quite some time until Batman shows up to stop it. 

Yeah, they set it up in the pilot with Falcone saying that Gotham was teetering on a knife's edge.  It was always on the brink, but was able to avoid going off the cliff, but the murder of the Waynes, Gordon going after Flass, Loeb, Falcone's retirement (who surprisingly was maintaining a form of balance in Gotham), and Penguin's ascent, has caused everything to explode.  It's also putting their own spin on the mythos, this version of Falcone was kind of a necessary evil.  Gordon wants to clean up Gotham, but before Gotham can be cleaned up, things are going to get a lot freaking worse, to the point where it's going to take a symbol to help Gordon bring Gotham back.

 

It also sets Gordon up as more of a hero where despite everything that's happened, he won't give up on Gotham, and won't stop trying to bring Gotham back.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Jediknight

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Gotham Lightens The Mood
Just kidding! Actually, there are dozens of onscreen murders.

[Timetoread]

I knew Essen was dead the moment she was named Commissioner, I just didn't expect it this soon.  I knew it because Essen was a complacent but good competent cop, if she became Commissioner and stayed that way there would be no reason for Gordon to become Commissioner in the first place. Gordon only becomes Commissioner because that's the best place for him to do the most good in Gotham, but he still has quite a few years of running and fighting left in him so it's not time for him to become Commissioner anytime soon either.

 

As I said in the wish thread a while back, the writers really should have started making Gotham get gradually better after all the darkness last season, only to make things go bad again right when the show is close to being wrapped up. Otherwise it makes NO sense whatsoever that the evil of Gotham just keeps mounting and there will even be a Gotham left for Batman to start to save in a couple decades, that there will be anyone willing to fight for it, and like you the audience will just not care anymore if they don't. At least they should have things go back and forth between over the top bad and "hey, this city might have a chance" good during the show's run.

 

See I'm anticipating (and I may be completely wrong) that Jim Gordon will successfully put a lid on this mess, right now while he is young and virile and the villains are young and not at their full evil strength.  This story has to marinate for 20 years in order for Young Master Bruce to mature into a full grown superhero.  The Joker is now Jerome - young, dumb and full of cum (Point Break) and too out of control to be sustainable.  Jim will catch him and lock him up - probably in Arkham.  The Penguin is too full of himself and self assured.  Jim will catch him and lock him up - probably in Arkham.  Scarecrow is already there, isn't he?  Cat and Ivy will fill out their spandex and their own brand of crazy in relative quiet because the boys have a soft spot for them.  Jim will catch and lock up most of the others - time will pass, he'll marry, have a child and become Commissioner.  Then the villains, fully baked, costumed and monikered, will break out and all hell will break loose.  That's when we'll see a bat in the sky.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Timetoread

[Actionmage]

if she [Essen] became Commissioner and stayed that way

 

That's the thing, though. She didn't have to be static. Jim and Harvey and Bruce and Ed and Barbara and every other character (maybe not Jerome) aren't static;  hell, Jim has a murder hanging over him that Penguin can use as leverage.  Essen had a daughter that could have been used as leverage, or her ex/ father of the daughter.

 

Essen could have been tempted, or like Jim, gotten a little dirty, thus showing the need for a "pure" hero for the city. Sarah and Jim wanted Gotham to be a clean town so damn hard, that getting a little dirty to ensure clean down the road could have been a big temptation for Sarah, if written correctly. She's worked longer at trying to clean up the city and tried to stay clean herself for longer- what would finally get her to seriously think about getting dirty now? Especially as Comissoner? I was fully expecting Oswald to drop by ( either at the station or her home) and get a read on her.

[bluvelvet]

I wonder if the maniax realize that Jim isn't above getting his hands dirty to deal with criminals. I don't think Barbara is familiar with that Jim.

Also if I lived him Gotham after that little broadcast I would be looking for a new town to live in. Way too much crazy !!

Edited September 29, 2015 by bluvelvet

[Maelstrom]

I like a good crime drama, I like melodramatic action, and I've enjoyed "Gotham" since the beginning, but last night's episode was too much for me.  

 

Cheerleaders doused in gasoline and almost set on fire, dock workers kidnapped and tossed off the roof of a building like so much garbage (and in a "comical" way, to boot), an entire police precinct being assassinated by criminals.....  I just don't find any of this entertaining at all.  

 

I can't even write it off as "comic book violence" because the villains didn't use a freeze ray to destroy a city, or blow up a nearby volcano, or some other over-the-top method.  They used real-life ways of causing mass casualties, and they got away with it (so far, at least).

 

I gave up on "The Walking Dead" because of the sense of hopelessness that pervades it, and I think I'm at that point with "Gotham", too.  The show last night really disturbed me, and that's not what I want from an entertainment program.

I'm with you 100%, especially the bolded part. I couldn't even make it through last night's episode. If I want to watch psychopaths get away with horrible crimes I'll just watch the news. I think I'm out - there are other things out there to watch.

[BonnieD]

 

Some shows explode on you from the start but can't maintain the fire for very long.  Then there are others that have a very slow start.  People drop the show pretty quickly because the show takes time to sometimes even an entire season to build a complicated and complex world and if the show survives to a second season you see what the world is capable of.   I think Gotham is the 2nd.

That's how I feel about Gotham too. It's like Buffy in that way. 1st season almost unwatchable IMO and then it got better, then much better.

I'm really enjoying the rise of the villains as well as the growth of Bruce and everyone else's changes. Last season there were parts I Candy Crushed my way through--most of my attention on the game, little on the show (looking at you Fish Mooney's storyline--not Jada's acting), this season I have to watch every bit.

 

Stupid, stupid, stooped Jim though, following Barbara when it was very obvious she was a distraction sent there for you. Come on, Jim. Learn a lesson and stop rushing into things without thinking.

 

[Raja]

The big problem is that the problems of Gotham City are so big why does anyone stay waiting for rescue by the Batman.

[Dobian]

I couldn't help but notice that Barbara's blonde ponytail, plus her off  white/black/touches of red (the leather  gloves!) outfit seems to echo the classic Harley Quinn costume. She's probably NOT going to become Harleen Quinzell-it's almost certainly  a headfake on the show's part -but it was an interesting touch IMO. 

She also gave Gordon that exaggerated "MUAAA!!" kiss, which is a Harley thing.

[TresGatos]

"If he is the Joker it makes it ridiculous that a decade from now Bruce and Jim can't figure out the actual identity of the Joker."

 

I put it down to repeated violent head injuries.

[Chicago Redshirt]

IIRC, Joker suffers a disfiguring mishap involving a chemical vat at some point in the future, making his outside as scary as his inside.  They might not recognize "Jerome" at the offset.

But never ever recognize him, even though he's showing the same M.O., even though forensics would presumably have his fingerprints and possibly his DNA on file, even though the main disfiguring is to turn his skin even paler and his hair even redder?

 

That would not be worthy of the World's Greatest Detective. Heck, that's not even worthy of classic Lois Lane not being able to piece together that Clark and Superman are one and the same.

[Timetoread]

But never ever recognize him, even though he's showing the same M.O., even though forensics would presumably have his fingerprints and possibly his DNA on file, even though the main disfiguring is to turn his skin even paler and his hair even redder?

 

That would not be worthy of the World's Greatest Detective. Heck, that's not even worthy of classic Lois Lane not being able to piece together that Clark and Superman are one and the same.

 

I don't know. I am not a writer for this show.  Maybe they WILL recognize him.  Or not.  Bruce doesn't seem to watch tv so maybe he WON'T know the guy 20 years later.  Maybe Jim has a bad memory or gets amnesia from one of his blows to the head.  I don't know.  I'd really hate for the show to stop the actor from portraying a darn near perfect Joker just because of this one hangup from the comic.  This is a "batman" show, what would it be if we didn't get just a little bit of the Joker?  It's all fiction, it can be changed. 

 

FTR - skin pale, hair GREEN, lips red, teeth yellow (sometimes pointy) and he wears gloves (so no prints).  :P

"If he is the Joker it makes it ridiculous that a decade from now Bruce and Jim can't figure out the actual identity of the Joker."

 

I put it down to repeated violent head injuries.

 

You beat me to it!

[Miss Dee]

I do think expect this to follow classic Batman lines. Otherwise what's the point if they don't being something new? Jerome is Joker enough to me. Can't wait to see him and little Mazouz square off.

Which reminds me: I'm still of the opinion this little guy has it in him to be the best damn Bruce Wayne you ever saw.

[Delphi]

I think he's already there tbqh. None of the Batman actors except Conroy have come close to my ideal version. He even looks like young Bruce.

And I'm not too bothered by the altered Joker origin. This show, like many others I watch, have made many changes to the source material. I'm just saying that the future canon is definitely altered by going this route with Jerome.

[HighwayFlower]

Alfred should have to say "kipper" at least once every episode.

[MisterGlass]

Part of me hopes they will focus more one what Alfred and Lucius can do behind the scenes than on what Bruce can do.  This Alfred is intimidating and ruthless when he chooses to be, and this Lucius is clearly good at undercover work.  They should be making more decisions about what comes next than Bruce.  I was also hoping that Alfred would bring up the guardianship in some way.  I wanted him to call in someone from the Wayne legal team to explain (though not in so many words) that a new guardian would not help Bruce make fertilizer bombs or teach him to fight or take him to beat up bullies or allow him to struggle up a steep slope with a twisted ankle or...no wonder this kid ends up a vigilante.

 

I was looking on youtube for Hamill joker clips and found one from The Laughing Fish.  Barbara is Harley-like.  I'm not sure if they would commit to that, though.  Also, someone made a four minute compilation of Mark Hamill Joker laughs. 

[Philbert]

 

Also if I lived him Gotham after that little broadcast I would be looking for a new town to live in. Way too much crazy !!

 

Let's be honest. If that had happened in real life, the National Guard would be swarming the place and the FBI and Justice would be camped out in the precinct houses. On the other hand, similar things have happened in real life...in other countries.

 

That's how I feel about Gotham too. It's like Buffy in that way. 1st season almost unwatchable IMO and then it got better, then much better.

 

And then it got much, much worse :(

Edited September 30, 2015 by Philbert

[Such A Flirt]

That was one of the most violent hours of TV I've ever watched. And I'm a "Walking Dead" fan. Yikes.

 

Very sad about Essen, I really liked her. No surprise that Harvey is back, but yay. And James Frain is so frakking sexy; his American accent is flawless.

 

Loved Barb's black, white and red outfit, and that little bit of hurt at watching Jim getting beaten up.

[RCharter]

Dayum. RIP Essen and Gotham PD. But at least Bullock is back! Let's hope he survives the season.

Okay Jerome, I believe you're the Joker now! He had a shaky backstory but I'm enjoying him now.

And I don't care if Barbara is more fun as a villian, she's still the same whiny, self-righteous bitch she was last season, blaming Jim for everything that went wrong. I'm ready for Jim or Leslie to put a bullet between her eyes very soon.

I still hate Barbara -- but I feel better about it now because the show has stopped trying to make her a sympathetic character.  That is the only thing that is better about her being a villain. I think she is going to end up killing Leslie.

"If he is the Joker it makes it ridiculous that a decade from now Bruce and Jim can't figure out the actual identity of the Joker."

 

I put it down to repeated violent head injuries.

I feel like in the movie (at least the first one) Batman knew Jokers real identity as a low level worker bee for a crime boss (he had his name and everything) it was just that he could never really find him or pin him down.  

 

I can't imagine he had his Amazon purchases sent to a home under his name.

[J----av]

Part of me hopes they will focus more one what Alfred and Lucius can do behind the scenes than on what Bruce can do.  This Alfred is intimidating and ruthless when he chooses to be, and this Lucius is clearly good at undercover work.  They should be making more decisions about what comes next than Bruce.  I was also hoping that Alfred would bring up the guardianship in some way.  I wanted him to call in someone from the Wayne legal team to explain (though not in so many words) that a new guardian would not help Bruce make fertilizer bombs or teach him to fight or take him to beat up bullies or allow him to struggle up a steep slope with a twisted ankle or...no wonder this kid ends up a vigilante.

 

I was looking on youtube for Hamill joker clips and found one from The Laughing Fish.  Barbara is Harley-like.  I'm not sure if they would commit to that, though.  Also, someone made a four minute compilation of Mark Hamill Joker laughs. 

 

 I would hope not. I just don't see Harley as a middle aged woman by the time Bruce becomes Batman

[RCharter]

And the anti has officially been upped.

 

There are a couple ways shows go.  Some shows explode on you from the start but can't maintain the fire for very long.  Then there are others that have a very slow start.  People drop the show pretty quickly because the show takes time to sometimes even an entire season to build a complicated and complex world and if the show survives to a second season you see what the world is capable of.   I think Gotham is the 2nd.  Season 1 took almost an entire season to build a complicated world and dark world but I am pretty sure it was worth it.

 

Damn Barbara has come into her own.  And I agree,  Why do the boys get to have all of the fun?  I am loving Barbara but then i think people are giving her a bad rap. I think she has been a great character since mid way through the first season.  Once the show figured out what to do with her she has become something to behold.

 

Nygma might have finally gotten Ms Kringle to Notice him.

 

 

 

Well, he certainly got the attention of the cop who walked in on him talking to himself!  Maybe he should ask that guy out!

I might be in the minority, but I hate The Joker guy. I feel like he's trying too hard. I ended up fast forwarding through some of his scenes.

 

I would be annoyed if I didn't feel like the over, over, over the top acting didn't reflect an early Joker trying to come into his own.  The Joker, IMO has been an OTT character, so much theater, especially Nicholson as the Joker.  I can see a young joker trying too hard in his early years and settling into the adult OTT Joker later.

No love for Cesar Romero?  Yeah, I'm old.

 

Bruce, you may be able to fire your butler (temporarily, of course) but I don't think a 13 or 14-year-old can actually fire his guardian.

I can't remember if Alfred was officially named Bruce's legal guardian.  I didn't think so, however, even if he was Bruce could petition the court for a change of guardianship.  Given the resources at his disposal I don't think it would be an issue, especially seeing as most the show has a set up where people in power can be "bought."  It would be a fight if Bruce was opposed, but if it was Bruce's idea and he could show it was in his best interest I could see it happening.  

[Slovenly Muse]

 

I still hate Barbara -- but I feel better about it now because the show has stopped trying to make her a sympathetic character.  That is the only thing that is better about her being a villain. I think she is going to end up killing Leslie.

 

I don't know. HAVE they stopped trying to make her a sympathetic character? I mean, she's running with legit psychos who are throwing people off roofs, trying to light cheerleaders on fire, and mass-murdering an entire police station... and her entire role in this whole scheme was to... make a phone call and walk down an alley. The other woman was sidelined too, but she still took a life, earning herself some villain cred. Babs even looked a bit affected by Jim getting beat up. Sure, she is totally crazy. But is this really "evil?" Is this a path of no return? As was noted upthead, the writers changed her story by changing her entire character, and yet it still doesn't feel like they're really committing to this new direction. Who knows what she'll be doing next? If/when she actually does kill Leslie, maybe I'll believe it. At this point, I call weaksauce.

 

And overall, the female characters did not fare well this episode. Even the ones who actually DID something! Seems like Gotham has not even tried to address those issues from the first season, and it's even more glaring without Fish. I mean, I'm not necessarily one to condemn a show as misogynistic solely for trying to set a busload of cheerleaders on fire, or IMMEDIATELY murdering the only female character who actually has agency and DOES things in order to pointlessly motivate a male character to do something he was obviously going to do anyway... I just wish these kinds of things were balanced out by the presence of women who are not just bystanders in other people's stories, but who actually mean something to the narrative. It's getting really tiring, and I thought for sure I had kicked this show to the curb after last season's terrible finale, but my very complicated feelings about Cameron Monaghan brought me back, and now I'm stuck! Fix it, Gotham! You can do better than this!

[Snookums]

One thing I like about what they've decided to do with Barbara is that she's just---decided she's crazy. "Well, nothing else has worked, so what the hell! At least I get to express myself!" And has anyone noticed that since she officially checked into Arkham, it's no longer No Pants Babs? Yes her Arkham uniform was official issue, but now she's wearing either some kind of crazy Capitalist Mao Suit For Easy Whipping or the Pretending I'm Harley Kinda glad rags. 

 

Loved the Mayor In A Box. Though I was expecting whathisname to offer A) Tarantula, B) Fake Running Off With Mistress or C) Being Forced To Look At My Horrible Art. What is up with his Soviet-lite murals? They are awful. Plus the whole clashing with the Roman Statues Are Classier When Dipped In Gold Paint loot from when he apparently robbed Donald Trump's summer place all over the room. 

 

 

I'm not sure if I'm feeling this Lucius though. The Alfred/Lucius scene was the only weak point of the episode for me.

 

My husband and I were going "What the...hell? Is this some kind of OKCupid meetup? Is Alfred like, hitting on him?" the whole scene. You don't call a guy "my sausage" unless you are very, very confident.

[Snookums]

Otherwise it makes NO sense whatsoever that the evil of Gotham just keeps mounting and there will even be a Gotham left for Batman to start to save in a couple decades, that there will be anyone willing to fight for it, and like you the audience will just not care anymore if they don't. At least they should have things go back and forth between over the top bad and "hey, this city might have a chance" good during the show's run.

 

 

I have to believe that Gotham is the equivalent of the cornfield in that Twilight Zone episode--that there is nothing beyond the borders but an endless misty nothing so everybody's stuck there. It's like I've said about the Baltimore/Eastern Seaboard of Hannibal--Why the fuck does anyone still live there? With all the elaborately expressive serial killers running around it should be a mass exodus to Kansas.

[SethyPooSmiley]

So someone has probably already noticed this, but Greenwood takes the first shot right? Then Jerome takes shots 2, 3, and 4. He proceeds to hand the gun to Greenwood for his next turn, which never actually happens. But Jerome's plan was there were only two possible shots left. Either Greenwood would kill himself or Jerome would know the last bullet would be for him. Then Jerome would probably just shoot Greenwood, knowing that shot number 6 contained the bullet. Brilliant right?!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved the Mayor In A Box. Though I was expecting whathisname to offer A) Tarantula, B) Fake Running Off With Mistress or C) Being Forced To Look At My Horrible Art.

Ha, I remember I read a book several years ago where the protagonist went to get a massage and the masseuse had his art (he referred to them as "boxes of pain") hanging all over the massage room. The protagonist, who was an actress, thought to herself that at least she didn't have terrible performances hanging in her house that people had to look at.

 

 

 

That was one of the most violent hours of TV I've ever watched. And I'm a "Walking Dead" fan. Yikes.

I just watched the second episode of Narcos on the same night so in comparison, this episode of Gotham was not that bad. I mean, sure the Maniax murdered everyone in the police station after trying to blow up a bus full of cheerleaders and Jim got the tar beat out of him, but Narcos killed

a dog, a cat, and multiple people - plus they had a gang rape

all in one episode.

Edited September 30, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[paigow]

The big problem is that the problems of Gotham City are so big why does anyone stay waiting for rescue by the Batman.

New Police Commissioner = Harvey Dent. The Commissioner they need, not the one they deserve.

[janie jones]

I think the Mayor is still alive, although he does have that box on his head.

This sentence strikes me as very funny.

[Dobian]

So someone has probably already noticed this, but Greenwood takes the first shot right? Then Jerome takes shots 2, 3, and 4. He proceeds to hand the gun to Greenwood for his next turn, which never actually happens. But Jerome's plan was there were only two possible shots left. Either Greenwood would kill himself or Jerome would know the last bullet would be for him. Then Jerome would probably just shoot Greenwood, knowing that shot number 6 contained the bullet. Brilliant right?!

 

I wish the scene did end with Jerome getting the last shot and shooting Greenwood in the face.  That would have been classic.  What do they need Greenwood for?  He's totally expendable.

[Traveller519]

The big problem is that the problems of Gotham City are so big why does anyone stay waiting for rescue by the Batman.

Low Property and Business Taxes. Mayor Richard Kind seems like the type to court power through populist policies to me.

[Snookums]

Ha, I remember I read a book several years ago where the protagonist went to get a massage and the masseuse had his art (he referred to them as "boxes of pain") hanging all over the massage room. The protagonist, who was an actress, thought to herself that at least she didn't have terrible performances hanging in her house that people had to look at.

 

 

Haha, I must read this! Any idea of author or title? 

[maczero]

No love for Cesar Romero?  Yeah, I'm old.

 

Bruce, you may be able to fire your butler (temporarily, of course) but I don't think a 13 or 14-year-old can actually fire his guardian.

I said the same thing in last week's episode thread.  Alfred needs to remind him that he's Bruce's guardian as well as his butler.  In fact, I would've told the little brat to make his own damn tea.  

 

Meanwhile, at stately Wayne Manor....  Alfred annoys me.  I don't know what it is.  He makes too many decisions for Bruce, maybe?  

Couldn't disagree more.  He gives the kid way too much freedom.  How many parents/guardians allow their kids to create explosives, pursue mysteries that most likely would get them killed etc?

 

So someone has probably already noticed this, but Greenwood takes the first shot right? Then Jerome takes shots 2, 3, and 4. He proceeds to hand the gun to Greenwood for his next turn, which never actually happens. But Jerome's plan was there were only two possible shots left. Either Greenwood would kill himself or Jerome would know the last bullet would be for him. Then Jerome would probably just shoot Greenwood, knowing that shot number 6 contained the bullet. Brilliant right?!

That's what I was assuming he was planning but Theo stopped that from playing out.

 

A couple of questions:

 

1)  Didn't Ms. Kringle suspect that Nygma had something to do with her boyfriend's death/disappearance last season?  Why is she acting like that's all water under the bridge?

 

2)  Is Theo's sister really his sister?  She appears to be a different ethnicity and at least 20 years younger than him.  It's possible for them to be siblings but I would think they would've cast someone who was closer in age and appearance to Frain's character.

[immortalfrieza]

 

1)  Didn't Ms. Kringle suspect that Nygma had something to do with her boyfriend's death/disappearance last season?  Why is she acting like that's all water under the bridge?

Considering Kringle's boyfriend was a abusive jackass that regularly beat her I'd be more surprised if she cared if Nygma killed him for more than 5 seconds. All she really did was figure and point out to him the riddle Nygma stuck into the note he gave her, he brushed it off, and Kringle didn't pursue it further. That was basically her way of saying "yeah, I know you probably killed my asshole boyfriend, I'm not stupid."

Edited September 30, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[maczero]

Considering Kringle's boyfriend was a abusive jackass that regularly beat her I'd be more surprised if she cared if Nygma killed him for more than 5 seconds. All she really did was figure and point out to him the riddle Nygma stuck into the note he gave her, he brushed it off, and Kringle didn't pursue it further. That was basically her way of saying "yeah, I know you probably killed my asshole boyfriend, I'm not stupid."

Yeah but doesn't that seem a bit off to you?  I mean the average person would be seriously wary of a suspected murderer.  Particularly one who is obsessed with them.  Then again this is Gotham so maybe Kringle isn't quite right in the head herself.

 

Speaking of not being quite right in the head, I've decided to fanwank that Barbara's always been crazy.  Her drug past, the neediness, and the reckless decisions could be indicators that Barbara has been dealing with mental issues for quite some time.  There's also the cold reception her parents gave her when she went to stay with them last season.  It's possible that they were aware of how dangerous she could be and were possibly scared of her moreso than disapproving of her life choices. 

[immortalfrieza]

Yeah but doesn't that seem a bit off to you?  I mean the average person would be seriously wary of a suspected murderer.  Particularly one who is obsessed with them.  Then again this is Gotham so maybe Kringle isn't quite right in the head herself.

 

Kringle DOES go out of her way to avoid Nygma and is obviously wary around him, his own general awkwardness around her doesn't help either. Also, I think Kringle recognizes that after being willing to murder someone for her sake there's very little chance he'd actually do anything to hurt her intentionally.

 

Something that just occurred to me about this episode. While obviously horrible, the Maniax murder of most of the GCPD will have a positive aspect, as it removes most of the corrupt and/or scared cops that were willing to leave Gordon to die last season, "cleaning house" as it were. Most of the resulting new blood that have the guts to join the force after that will do so out of a sense of altruism like Gordon and many of them will probably end up looking up to Gordon as a senior surviving officer and possibly some of them even trained by him. Thus this will greatly help facilitate Gordon's eventual rise to Commissioner.

Edited September 30, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was imagining Jim having to lead a bunch of new officers fresh out of the academy and Harvey yelling at them every time they screwed up because they are all so green.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ha, I remember I read a book several years ago where the protagonist went to get a massage and the masseuse had his art (he referred to them as "boxes of pain") hanging all over the massage room. The protagonist, who was an actress, thought to herself that at least she didn't have terrible performances hanging in her house that people had to look at.

Haha, I must read this! Any idea of author or title? 

It's called Going Down by Jennifer Belle. It's about a college student who becomes an escort, which I know sounds like it would be full of dirty sex scenes but there's almost no sex in it and what little there is is not graphic at all and not really about the sex at all (in one scene she is having sex with a client and she talks about how he starts sweating like a watering can). It's a very funny book.

 

Is Theo's sister really his sister?  She appears to be a different ethnicity and at least 20 years younger than him.  It's possible for them to be siblings but I would think they would've cast someone who was closer in age and appearance to Frain's character.

The actress who plays Tabitha is 17 years younger than Frain, but I don't have an issue with them not looking identical. I know families where the siblings look nothing alike. There are always stories about twins who look totally different from each other too so for me it's not an issue. As for the age difference, they could be half siblings or maybe Tabitha was one of those late in life babies for someone who got married very young.

[Danielg342]

Perhaps I should expect this show to be "over the top" considering it's based on a comic book...but there's only so much ridiculousness I can take before I tune out.

 

This just might be that point.

 

How can I believe that the Gotham City Police Department Massacre could even happen? Sure, the GCPD are corrupt, lazy and mostly incompetent, and I doubt that Sarah Essen (RIP) would fix that so quickly.

 

However...last season saw the Electrocutioner just walk right into the precinct, no questions asked, and almost zap the entire force. Somehow you'd think after an incident like that the GCPD would at least try to have some kind of security detail...plus, the emergence of the "Maniax" (nice name there, Bruno Heller...) should only serve to provide that more urgency. Perhaps the regular beat cops wouldn't recognize their own imminent threat, but Essen knew- or at least should know- that the GCPD would have a target on their back, especially since she noted one of the escapees was Barbara Kean who has a personal connection to Jim Gordon. So while I wouldn't expect the precinct to be a fortress, it should have at least been in the stages of becoming one.

 

Sure...security run by the GCPD would likely still be ineffective, so the Maniax wouldn't encounter much resistance. However, they should have had some resistance and had to account for it, plus you'd think there'd be some kind of procedure for the police to follow in the case where the precinct is infiltrated by shooters. Why doesn't Essen have a secret escape, and why are there no exits through the basement?

 

Still, if nothing else, in a room of 50 cops and four shooters, it strains the credulity that four crazies could shoot the police- who would all have better aim- like fish in a barrel and massacre the entire force (except those with Plot Armour of course). Some of the police would still likely die, but so too would the shooters, and there'd still be a GCPD to talk about...and Essen would likely still be alive.

 

Speaking of Plot Armour...why wasn't Gordon killed? OK, so maybe I can buy that Barbara wanted some "alone" time with Jim and have the thrill of killing him herself...fine. It's not exactly a very efficient way of offing him but there have been worse examples of "Villain Talks Their Way Out Of A Sure Kill" on this show, but at least this time I could believe it would happen. However, why did Barbara choose to leave Gordon alive? You'd think she knows what Gordon is capable of as a Detective, and, if nothing else, the Maniax would key him (not Essen or the other GCPD cops) as the one man they had to get rid of. Perhaps it goes against the "great game" ideal of a detective narrative, but the idea is frankly illogical. No criminal worth their salt- at least those wanting to build an empire- would want to keep their most effective pursuers alive- they would be target(s) No. 1. Sure, maybe they're hoping Gordon would be demoralized and would quit the force, but wouldn't they know that Loeb couldn't accomplish that?

 

Then there's the other crimes...call me cruel, but I wish the Maniax had torched that bus. I'm tired of TV shows contriving things to save kids because, well, "they're kids". The Maniax sure are not the kind of criminals who'd spare anyone, or, for that matter, refuse to commit any crime- I mean, one of their number (before Jerome offed him) was a rapist, so in theory they'd be game for that too, although I could understand why they wouldn't do that on the bus (time limits after all).

 

Of course, this brings me to the mechanics of that crime...they presumably have access to machine guns, so why not shoot them all instead of wasting time (conveniently allowing the police to arrive) torching the bus? It would have been nice if, in failing to achieve that goal Theo Galavan chided the group for being "sloppy" (they did lose a member, after all), because it reinforces the idea that the group is still learning how to be criminals, but, nope, they just had to continue on with the Massacre without skipping a beat.

 

Overall, though, the Maniax storyline was way too frenetic...with all those crimes happening at once, as others have mentioned, why would anyone want to stay in Gotham? You'd also wonder why the state government wouldn't pay a visit and wonder why everything has blown to smithereens so quickly...heck, why didn't the Army show up? Gotham's plunged into near anarchy, and the central government just doesn't care? Come on.

 

(Not to mention why would Oswald sit around and "let" the Maniax ruin his "kingdom"...he was strangely absent in this episode)

 

A better way would have been cutting out the police massacre and save that for the fall finale, at least (so that the event can get the proper focus it deserves), with the Maniax committing a new, extravagant, violent crime every week. I thought from last week they learned not to "cram everything in" and actually build to crescendos now, but this episode proved me wrong. Way too much happened at once, and it was nauseating.

 

A few other notes:

 

-Loved that Bullock came back as a Detective, and it made sense that he'd get that calling from Essen being gunned down. Also, while Maria Thayer (Accepted) portrayed Scottie well, it was a groaner to learn that Bullock shacked up with a condescending, selfish and ungrateful woman...it's a tired cliche. Plus, I don't think Bullock needed any prompting (or any convincing to stay) to enter civilian life, from his quotes in the Season 1 finale. Still, glad to see him back. Hopefully he gets something to do and isn't just Jim's wisecracking sidekick. Did think his return scene was very touching and its poignancy almost lifted this episode into the "bearable" category for me...almost.

 

-Essen. Gotham finally gets a female character right, one that can stand on her own and drive her own stories (instead of being support for one of the men)...and they kill her off. I get that Essen being in power means that Gordon wouldn't want to become commissioner, but wouldn't Gordon waiting to become commissioner make sense if Essen was in the job for a while? Her death could have been a "final season" event, since it could take Jim out of his comfort zone and become commissioner himself. I also think it's a waste of a great character and a great actress. RIP Sarah Essen...gone too soon.

 

-Lastly, I thought the Bruce story was touching. I would have fired Alfred too if I was Bruce, and Sean Pertwee played Alfred's despondency on losing his job wonderfully. Even though I knew he'd be back as the butler at episode's end, it was still great seeing the bond that Alfred and Bruce shared, and both knowing they need each other. I also quite enjoyed Lucius "I'm not sure I want your confidence" Fox...that was a very well written scene, with Alfred liberally throwing around Cockney (?) slang just to prove a point. Brilliant. Sometimes I think for once they should have an episode entirely for Bruce, because his stories tend to make more sense than the "main" ones do sometimes.

 

Overall...well, 2/5. A thrill ride but one that made very little sense.

[WordsWordsWords]

I enjoyed this episode. But then, I'm a horror writer, so I have somewhat different parameters for violence and blood, etc.

 

Also, perhaps because I'm a writer, I have problems with scenes like the "let's toss folks off a roof -- with their mouths taped -- and have them all fall exactly so they will spell out a word" one in this episode. Oh, and they'll scream, with the sound unmuffled, though those taped-up mouths. Yeah, that'll work. I had to say, "Comic book violence," a few times to stop the eye-rolling.

 

I'll miss Essen. I liked her.

Edited October 1, 2015 by WordsWordsWords

[immortalfrieza]

Perhaps I should expect this show to be "over the top" considering it's based on a comic book...but there's only so much ridiculousness I can take before I tune out,

The Gotham writers definitely need to learn to pace themselves that's for damned sure. They should have made this level of over the top literal and figurative insanity take most of the show's run to get to this point, but instead they keep thinking "just how can we top the last evil thing our evil characters did last episode as much as possible?" just about every episode.

 

That said, it's a show based on a comic book, and one of the main things about comic books is not only being as over the top as possible but the crazy amount of stupidity for most everybody involved especially the villains just so the plot can work. Why else do you think villains routinely put the heroes in elaborate deathtraps instead of putting a bullet in their brains when they have the chance and heroes always refuse to kill the villains no matter how ridiculously obvious it is that they should? It's because that's the only way the plot can work. It's not good of course, but it's definitely routine, so it's something that one has to learn to expect and deal with if one wants to enjoy anything involving comic books.

Edited October 1, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[RCharter]

Perhaps I should expect this show to be "over the top" considering it's based on a comic book...but there's only so much ridiculousness I can take before I tune out.

 

This just might be that point.

 

How can I believe that the Gotham City Police Department Massacre could even happen? Sure, the GCPD are corrupt, lazy and mostly incompetent, and I doubt that Sarah Essen (RIP) would fix that so quickly.

 

However...last season saw the Electrocutioner just walk right into the precinct, no questions asked, and almost zap the entire force. Somehow you'd think after an incident like that the GCPD would at least try to have some kind of security detail...plus, the emergence of the "Maniax" (nice name there, Bruno Heller...) should only serve to provide that more urgency. Perhaps the regular beat cops wouldn't recognize their own imminent threat, but Essen knew- or at least should know- that the GCPD would have a target on their back, especially since she noted one of the escapees was Barbara Kean who has a personal connection to Jim Gordon. So while I wouldn't expect the precinct to be a fortress, it should have at least been in the stages of becoming one.

 

Sure...security run by the GCPD would likely still be ineffective, so the Maniax wouldn't encounter much resistance. However, they should have had some resistance and had to account for it, plus you'd think there'd be some kind of procedure for the police to follow in the case where the precinct is infiltrated by shooters. Why doesn't Essen have a secret escape, and why are there no exits through the basement?

 

Still, if nothing else, in a room of 50 cops and four shooters, it strains the credulity that four crazies could shoot the police- who would all have better aim- like fish in a barrel and massacre the entire force (except those with Plot Armour of course). Some of the police would still likely die, but so too would the shooters, and there'd still be a GCPD to talk about...and Essen would likely still be alive.

 

Speaking of Plot Armour...why wasn't Gordon killed? OK, so maybe I can buy that Barbara wanted some "alone" time with Jim and have the thrill of killing him herself...fine. It's not exactly a very efficient way of offing him but there have been worse examples of "Villain Talks Their Way Out Of A Sure Kill" on this show, but at least this time I could believe it would happen. However, why did Barbara choose to leave Gordon alive? You'd think she knows what Gordon is capable of as a Detective, and, if nothing else, the Maniax would key him (not Essen or the other GCPD cops) as the one man they had to get rid of. Perhaps it goes against the "great game" ideal of a detective narrative, but the idea is frankly illogical. No criminal worth their salt- at least those wanting to build an empire- would want to keep their most effective pursuers alive- they would be target(s) No. 1. Sure, maybe they're hoping Gordon would be demoralized and would quit the force, but wouldn't they know that Loeb couldn't accomplish that?

 

Then there's the other crimes...call me cruel, but I wish the Maniax had torched that bus. I'm tired of TV shows contriving things to save kids because, well, "they're kids". The Maniax sure are not the kind of criminals who'd spare anyone, or, for that matter, refuse to commit any crime- I mean, one of their number (before Jerome offed him) was a rapist, so in theory they'd be game for that too, although I could understand why they wouldn't do that on the bus (time limits after all).

 

Of course, this brings me to the mechanics of that crime...they presumably have access to machine guns, so why not shoot them all instead of wasting time (conveniently allowing the police to arrive) torching the bus? It would have been nice if, in failing to achieve that goal Theo Galavan chided the group for being "sloppy" (they did lose a member, after all), because it reinforces the idea that the group is still learning how to be criminals, but, nope, they just had to continue on with the Massacre without skipping a beat.

 

Overall, though, the Maniax storyline was way too frenetic...with all those crimes happening at once, as others have mentioned, why would anyone want to stay in Gotham? You'd also wonder why the state government wouldn't pay a visit and wonder why everything has blown to smithereens so quickly...heck, why didn't the Army show up? Gotham's plunged into near anarchy, and the central government just doesn't care? Come on.

 

(Not to mention why would Oswald sit around and "let" the Maniax ruin his "kingdom"...he was strangely absent in this episode)

 

A better way would have been cutting out the police massacre and save that for the fall finale, at least (so that the event can get the proper focus it deserves), with the Maniax committing a new, extravagant, violent crime every week. I thought from last week they learned not to "cram everything in" and actually build to crescendos now, but this episode proved me wrong. Way too much happened at once, and it was nauseating.

 

A few other notes:

 

-Loved that Bullock came back as a Detective, and it made sense that he'd get that calling from Essen being gunned down. Also, while Maria Thayer (Accepted) portrayed Scottie well, it was a groaner to learn that Bullock shacked up with a condescending, selfish and ungrateful woman...it's a tired cliche. Plus, I don't think Bullock needed any prompting (or any convincing to stay) to enter civilian life, from his quotes in the Season 1 finale. Still, glad to see him back. Hopefully he gets something to do and isn't just Jim's wisecracking sidekick. Did think his return scene was very touching and its poignancy almost lifted this episode into the "bearable" category for me...almost.

 

-Essen. Gotham finally gets a female character right, one that can stand on her own and drive her own stories (instead of being support for one of the men)...and they kill her off. I get that Essen being in power means that Gordon wouldn't want to become commissioner, but wouldn't Gordon waiting to become commissioner make sense if Essen was in the job for a while? Her death could have been a "final season" event, since it could take Jim out of his comfort zone and become commissioner himself. I also think it's a waste of a great character and a great actress. RIP Sarah Essen...gone too soon.

 

-Lastly, I thought the Bruce story was touching. I would have fired Alfred too if I was Bruce, and Sean Pertwee played Alfred's despondency on losing his job wonderfully. Even though I knew he'd be back as the butler at episode's end, it was still great seeing the bond that Alfred and Bruce shared, and both knowing they need each other. I also quite enjoyed Lucius "I'm not sure I want your confidence" Fox...that was a very well written scene, with Alfred liberally throwing around Cockney (?) slang just to prove a point. Brilliant. Sometimes I think for once they should have an episode entirely for Bruce, because his stories tend to make more sense than the "main" ones do sometimes.

 

Overall...well, 2/5. A thrill ride but one that made very little sense.

1. I'm not sure how time moves in Gotham, but people have a tendency to try to get "back to normal" even when they shouldn't.  I could see a period of super stringent security measures for a little while and then they relax a little, and relax a little more, and people start to forget why there were ever in place.  And cops cycle in and out, and the ones that were there for the bad incident last year are replaced by new guys that don't know so they don't see why everything is strict.

 

2.  I also don't know how many entrances police stations have.  If GCPD only has one entrance/exit its entirely possible they had security measures (metal detector, ID check) but only one that regular folks have to go through (you wouldn't want police officers to go through metal detectors because they would always set it off).  Whoever was working the desk could have simply gotten a little relaxed with the ID checking procedure.  It certainly happens.  The TSA was formed out of one of a horrific terrorist act that was fairly recent.  As I was leaving an airport the other day I LITERALLY saw a TSA agent sleeping at her post.  On a chair....sleeping....full lights out.  People just get lax with time, even when they do remember.

 

3.  I'm not sure about other police departments -- but there are some things I can't imagine you plan for.  You may have a plan to take down a single shooter, but to foresee or even plan for a gang of people to shoot up a department seems like a lot of emergency planning in a town that doesn't seem to have much of an emergency plan.  Emergency plans tend to grow out of things that have actually happened at some point in time, they seem to be more reactionary than anything else.  A number of places in California didn't really have an Earthquake plan until after the huge Northridge quake.  In fact, I think it was after the Northridge quake that building earthquake safe buildings became a requirement.  And California has about a billion fault lines!

 

4.  I think Theo has a plan for Gordon.  He specifically asked Barbara to "tell him about Gordon" and there doesn't seem to be a reason for that if he just planned to shoot him up in the middle of a police station.  Theo also told Barbara that her "time" to be useful and integral to the plan was coming soon -- so to me it seems like he told Barbara to lure Jim out, but not to kill him.  But to lure him out so he was sure to be safe because Theo has some plan for him.

 

5.  The Maniax are all about maximum headlines and theatrics.  They could have just killed 7 random street people that no one would miss and spray painted on them and then set them out in the middle of the night.   They could have even lured 7 random street people up to the roof and killed them.  But they chose the victims, the time of day, method and location for maximum theatrics and maximum headlines.  7 normal guys who just went to work that day, did nothing wrong in life and ended up killed in the scariest way possible.  The same with the bus.  Shooting up a bus full of cheerleaders is awful.  But for maximum theatrics and maximum headlines and terror you can't beat setting a bus of cheerleaders on fire after you've handcuffed them to the seats.

 

6.  I will always forgive that the federal government doesn't arrive and that no one leaves town.  No one did in any of the movies, and I loved the first two.  Thats where I allow my willing suspension of disbelief.  In the first Batman you had some lunatic that was killing people with deodorant and killing people openly in the streets.  He took over TV communications with a message that featured dead models.  He gassed a museum full of people.  And then he announced he was throwing a party and giving away some money and the entire town turned out. Not a solitary person called the national guard, the FBI, or even Proctor&Gamble to get a few cases of untainted deodorant sent over.

 

7. Theo is in the process of introducing the Maniax to the city and to the world.  It seems likely Oswald was caught as much by surprise as everyone else.  Theo doesn't seem to be part of the underworld that Oswald travels in, so he may not have even been on Oswald's radar.

[Jediknight]

4.  I think Theo has a plan for Gordon.  He specifically asked Barbara to "tell him about Gordon" and there doesn't seem to be a reason for that if he just planned to shoot him up in the middle of a police station.  Theo also told Barbara that her "time" to be useful and integral to the plan was coming soon -- so to me it seems like he told Barbara to lure Jim out, but not to kill him.  But to lure him out so he was sure to be safe because Theo has some plan for him.

If he's using the Maniax to unleash hell on Gotham so he can come in as a savior, having the incorruptible hero cop on his side would help.  More than that, I think he wants to break Jim.  He sees Jim as someone who does want to clean up Gotham, wants to get rid of the corruption, and take down the criminals, so he wants to completely break him.  Maybe even a small Killing Joke plan, he wants Gordon to be so destroyed that he becomes what he's trying to get rid of.  Killing Jim could make him a martyr, but breaking him, would destroy Jim, and so many other people.

[RCharter]

If he's using the Maniax to unleash hell on Gotham so he can come in as a savior, having the incorruptible hero cop on his side would help.  More than that, I think he wants to break Jim.  He sees Jim as someone who does want to clean up Gotham, wants to get rid of the corruption, and take down the criminals, so he wants to completely break him.  Maybe even a small Killing Joke plan, he wants Gordon to be so destroyed that he becomes what he's trying to get rid of.  Killing Jim could make him a martyr, but breaking him, would destroy Jim, and so many other people.

Or having the hero incorruptible cop would mean the city wouldn't rely solely upon Theo as their savior.  He wants to be in control and in charge.  And having two hero saviors, especially when you cant control the second one doesn't seem to be part of Theo's plan.  But he may be looking for a situation where he saves the city from Jim.

 

I don't know about breaking him, how much of a martyr would Jim really be at this point?  He just got reinstated as detective after being assigned traffic duty and then fired.  No one in the city stuck their neck out for him when he was demoted to traffic cop, nor did anyone stick their neck out when he was fired.  And I'm not sure how much of a martyr a dead Jim would be given that it could easily come to light that he killed someone for Oswald so he could get back on the force.  So it seems like, at this point Jim wouldn't have been any more of a martyr than any of the other police officers, or Essen who they had no problem killing. Since I don't think Jim would be much of a martyr I think it would have been much easier to kill him.

 

But I don't know.  He clearly has a plan for Jim that didn't involve him dying a quick death in a police station massacre, which is why Barbara had to lure him out.

Edited October 1, 2015 by RCharter

[driedfruit]

How old is Bruce supposed to be? Last season he looked 12, now he's looking more like 15-16. This is Walt from Lost all over again. 

 

All in all, best episode of Gotham to date. Hopefully the season continues this strong streak.