Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[Guest]

On 5/12/2016 at 10:32 AM, SeanC said:

No, they don't.  The Avengers are not a sovereign entity.  They are people, and as such are as subordinate to government as everybody else.  The state monopoly on the use of force is one of the cornerstones of modern democratic government.

But you can't really (in my opinion) bring in real world logistics when you're dealing with other worldly beings (Loki and Thor, to name two) and beings that the governments really can't control. Unless other superheroes are helping, there is no way you get Scarlet Witch to a cell.  You can't capture and contain Incredible Hulk unless he chooses to allow it.  

On 5/12/2016 at 1:42 PM, Dandesun said:

Can I also just say that I love Falcon's little bird drone? And how he calls it Redwing? Which is the name of his actual bird in the comics? In the comics, Falcon can actually talk to birds and Redwing is his actual falcon buddy... who was also a member of the Pet Avengers (which was an amazing comic book.) I admit that the second I saw the little drone deploy and it started flying about I thought 'Redwing!'

 

One of my favorite lines was when his armor was referred to as a "bird costume" and he got indignant.

[angora]

3 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

While I agree with this, I'm not sure that the Avengers would think this way. I mean, these are superheroes - they have a super developed sense of responsibility to begin with, or they wouldn't do what they do. I'd figure that each death, each failure would hurt these men (and women), so I wasn't surprised that they felt responsible, even if they weren't the cause behind most of these. So again, it felt fitting, not jarring, to me. It felt cruel on the Government's part, but I was not surprised that it worked. 

Agreed.  I viewed it as similar to the scene with Steve and Bucky in the quinjet, where, even as Bucky agrees with Steve's point that he wasn't in control of his mind when he committed his crimes, he insists, "But I still did them."  He completely gets that he was brainwashed and couldn't stop himself, but he still holds himself accountable for what his hands did and never uses brainwashing as an excuse or a defense.  I figure the Avengers are pretty much the same way; they KNOW that the loss of life would have been catastrophic if they hadn't gotten involved, and that it's not like the aliens, Hydra-controlled Helicarriers, killer robots, and what have you would've just peaceably gone about their business, but they still feel responsible for everyone killed in the crossfire.  As such, I could buy that, even if they know intellectually that it wasn't their fault, they wouldn't bring that up when Ross is showing them images of people who died in the midst of these fights.  "With great power" and all that.

[Grace19]

A lot of people praise RDJ for that last fight scene, but on re-watch, I realize that Chris Evans did a great job in that scene too. I actually felt the devastation on his face when the said yes to tony about Bucky killing his parents. That scene was so powerful, and all three actors made it work. Bucky's "I remember all of them". broke me too. And what T'challa said to Zemo was very powerful, "Vengeance has consumed them, I'm done letting it consume me". Also, "the living are not done with you yet". Seriously the writers, directors and actors did a great job.

 

[Grace19]

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 9:25 PM, Grace19 said:

Me too, the only thing that can get me more hyped for his movie is if they cast Lupita Nyango as his sister Shuri.

 

I just heard that Lupita is in talks with marvel to be in Black Panther as maybe his love interest. I am excited about her being in the movie, but I don't want her to being just a love interest, I'll prefer her as shuri. Unless there will be no Shuri, then Love interest is fine as far she is also a bad ass bodyguard like that lady that threatened to remove Natasha.

Its a shame that even with an Oscar award, Lupita only gets to play a character that is covered in make up, voice an animation character or play a character only meant for a black woman. If she was white she probably would have gotten better offers by now.
 

[nksarmi]

I wish they'd get permission to use Storm for Black Panther. Even if they had to give her a slightly different back story like they did with Scarlett Witch or only use her given name and not her Xmen name. I just want her.

[STOPSHOUTING]

And Michael B Jordan goes the Evans route and departs a horrible Marvel comic movie, for what's shaping up to be an awesome one, by joining Black Panther cast. Which makes sense since Panther is going to be directed by same guy as Creed.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/black-panther-michael-b-jordan-893845

Oh and, is it official that all of Hollywood's most beautiful people have now been, or are scheduled to be, in a Marvel movie?

Edited May 14, 2016 by STOPSHOUTING

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

I wish they'd get permission to use Storm for Black Panther. Even if they had to give her a slightly different back story like they did with Scarlett Witch or only use her given name and not her Xmen name. I just want her.

I want her too. Though you can't have Storm without the X-Men. 

They would have to cast a different Storm though. What could have been ~sigh~ 

[Lantern7]

Who would MBJ play? Zuri?

[Bruinsfan]

1 hour ago, STOPSHOUTING said:

Oh and, is it official that all of Hollywood's most beautiful people have now been, or are scheduled to be, in a Marvel movie?

Well, I haven't seen Gabrielle Union or Rob Kazinsky on a cast list yet, and Henry Cavill and Gal Godot are locked into the DC movies for the foreseeable future. But there do not appear to be many plain people in the Marvel universe.

[benteen]

Lupita would be a great Storm but I like the X-Men staying in the X-Men universe.  I didn't like Panther and Storm together and I didn't like Kitty and Star-Lord together.

Edited May 14, 2016 by benteen

[DrSpaceman73]

I found the whole plot and the plan to cause the break up of the avengers to be pretty convoluted as well, despite one article I read explaining how it was "simplistic" and "genius".  I don't think it was simplistic, I found it all pretty hard to follow.  I do think it was smart to make the group turn on itself though rather than have some outside entity try and take them on.  

 

I also find it interesting how so many plots lately with the superheroes involve vigilantism and its role in their deeds, whether it's legitimate for them to have such power and use such indiscriminate force.  The fist one I recall like this was The Watchmen from almost a decade ago or so and since then it's spread it seems to all the other comic heroes.  I guess you could say with the Xmen it's been a constant theme though there it's more for of the "superheros" and the powers they possess rather than objection to their actions in the process of saving everyone.  

 

The best lines of the movie were from Ant Man and Spider-Man.  Paul Rudd is so perfect as Ant Man.  

 

I enjoyed the movie.  Solid all around.  And I still am not sure where I fall on the accords and if it's a good idea or not.  There should be some oversight.  I don't think holding them accountable as regular citizens makes sense, they are more like voluntary military personnel.  But they are military without anyone seemingly holding them accountable for collateral damage.  

[Wynterwolf]

On second viewing, I noticed a couple of things I missed the first time... I would lay odds that the tech Tony was talking about in the beginning at the MIT event (to help people with traumatic memories) will be used to help Bucky (at some point), and second, that the Winter Soldier is who set up the camera at the crash site to film the op for his handlers, which he could do since he knew exactly which tree he was going to crash the car into. I remember when I watched the first time I thought it was weird that he shot the camera out after it filmed him, but my take now is that it was just part of him cleaning up the scene.  

Also, I need the DVD so I can play the motorcycle grab and remount on a loop forever.     

[morakot]

Talking about vengeance for the death of parents, Tony was previously upset at the fact that Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch blamed him for the death of their parents (via the bomb with his name on) and were ready to kill him by any means necessary. Bucky is basically a (metal) armed weapon controlled by other people. Even if he remembers every kill, he has as much responsibility for the kill as a bomb would. If he had taken the time to consider this, he would have been a little more forgiving.

Team Cap here, but I was impressed that Cap demonstrated that he is one of the few grown-ups on the Avengers roster. He is accountable for his actions, he accepts the consequences, and he is quick to apologize and make amends.

[ainon]

21 hours ago, benteen said:

The UN has been treated like a powerful and respected organization in Marvel Comics since the 60s, which is laughable as they have been one of the most corrupt and ineffectual organizations on the planet for a great many years now.

For many nations around the world, the UN is the one organization they can depend on for arbitration, healthcare, emergency response, education support, and plenty more. Who else were nations going to turn to when it became clear that the Avengers were not respecting their sovereignty?

On 12/05/2016 at 1:57 AM, NoWillToResist said:

IIRC, they were expecting the guy to attack somewhere else and realized at the last minute that he was attacking that country's version of the CIC. The guy stole a biological sample. If the UN had their wish, the Avengers would never have been there, that guy would have grabbed that vial and either made a weapon or sold it to someone else who would have and untold numbers of humans would have been killed. That, IMO, is why the whole "we want to control when to send in the Avengers" was utter horseshit.

Actually, one could argue if the Avengers had never been there, Crossbones would never have had any cause to detonate that suicide-murder-Captain-America vest, so no threat there. And actually, the Avengers had failed to prevent the biological sample from being stolen in the first place because whatever info they had placed them at the wrong target initially. Did they even have a local handler or contact who might have advised them that the local CIC was just over that way and was thus a very likely target? For that matter, was there any indication at all that the Avengers liaised with the local authorities? Did the Avengers even warn the local authorities that a dangerous criminal was in town, so the authorities might've had a chance to warn the citizenry and heighten security?

Why do we assume, after all, that the local authorities couldn't have handled things if provided with sufficient information? Crossbones and his team were elite but weren't super powered - heck, the Avengers seemed confident the four of them were enough to face any eventuality. Sure, countless movies have trained us to accept that only Americans (and/or the occasional Englishman) can swoop in and save the day, and if locals feature at all, they're going to be incompetent or corrupt or both, but has it become so ingrained in us as viewers that we can't even imagine that no one else can handle their own safety and defence? 

Anyway, I am not American, and I absolutely agree with the very American Air Force Colonel James Rhodes. Steve Rogers was dangerously arrogant. As well as selfishly and foolishly arrogant. So many times in this movie alone where Steve could have made a different decision and either avoided escalating violence or unknowingly thwart Zemo's plan altogether, but Steve had already decided that he was the one who was right and it's other people who had to move. I could sympathise with how circumstances might have made Steve paranoid, but so long as he doesn't realise his own narrow mindedness, he'll remain frustratingly and dangerously arrogant to me.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, ainon said:

For many nations around the world, the UN is the one organization they can depend on for arbitration, healthcare, emergency response, education support, and plenty more. Who else were nations going to turn to when it became clear that the Avengers were not respecting their sovereignty?

Actually, one could argue if the Avengers had never been there, Crossbones would never have had any cause to detonate that suicide-murder-Captain-America vest, so no threat there. And actually, the Avengers had failed to prevent the biological sample from being stolen in the first place because whatever info they had placed them at the wrong target initially. Did they even have a local handler or contact who might have advised them that the local CIC was just over that way and was thus a very likely target? For that matter, was there any indication at all that the Avengers liaised with the local authorities? Did the Avengers even warn the local authorities that a dangerous criminal was in town, so the authorities might've had a chance to warn the citizenry and heighten security?

Why do we assume, after all, that the local authorities couldn't have handled things if provided with sufficient information? Crossbones and his team were elite but weren't super powered - heck, the Avengers seemed confident the four of them were enough to face any eventuality. Sure, countless movies have trained us to accept that only Americans (and/or the occasional Englishman) can swoop in and save the day, and if locals feature at all, they're going to be incompetent or corrupt or both, but has it become so ingrained in us as viewers that we can't even imagine that no one else can handle their own safety and defence? 

Anyway, I am not American, and I absolutely agree with the very American Air Force Colonel James Rhodes. Steve Rogers was dangerously arrogant. As well as selfishly and foolishly arrogant. So many times in this movie alone where Steve could have made a different decision and either avoided escalating violence or unknowingly thwart Zemo's plan altogether, but Steve had already decided that he was the one who was right and it's other people who had to move. I could sympathise with how circumstances might have made Steve paranoid, but so long as he doesn't realise his own narrow mindedness, he'll remain frustratingly and dangerously arrogant to me.

I am more along the lines that if the Avengers has called in and assisted the Nigerians the mercenaries wouldn't have gotten close to the biological weapon. It was their elitism and go it alone prejudice which was similar to Stark trying to put a robot AI army around the world in case of another alien attack 

[HoodlumSheep]

*whispers* still team iron man...but it's because I'm biased. 

i just want to wrap Tony up in a blanket and give him a hug. And Rhodey too.

tony's forever my fave. I love his entire mcu arc. I find it so fascinating. He tries so hard, but everything always has to turn into a mess. 

While I find the shield comment to be a little petty, I can understand it. He was bascially throwing Howard's friendship back at Cap's face imo. Like he chose Bucky over Tony and Howard. Howard, who had loved Steve so much and who apparently wouldn't stop talking about him and seemed very devoted to him (probably because Steve was one of the only things Howard thought he did right by). So I think there's more weight behind that shield line than just some pettiness.

Tony snapping was a long time coming in my opinion. It needed to happen. He has so many (still) unresolved issues. 

And about the Spider-man issue...like I get it, but I get tired of seeing Tony Stark hate. So many people readily jump on tearing Tony apart for bringing Spidey along, but you strangely don't see Batman getting any hate for letting Robins and Batgirls tag along. Or any of the other superheroes and sidekicks in the comics. It doesn't bother me that much because Tony made sure to keep him safe.

I feel terrible because I want Tony to find happiness, but I don't miss Pepper as much as he does. I was never super crazy over the Pepperony ship to begin with (I'm fine with them together), but she hasn't been around since Im3 besides being mentioned and my interest in her and the pairing has...waned. And I'm kind of worried that they're gonna stick them back together after IW once Tony retires or whatever and I don't think it'll come off very organically at that point if it happens. I'd much rather see Tony's other relationships get more developed (like with Rhodey or Vision or Spidey, etc.)

*shrugs*

Edited May 14, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[nksarmi]

3 hours ago, Raja said:

I am more along the lines that if the Avengers has called in and assisted the Nigerians the mercenaries wouldn't have gotten close to the biological weapon. It was their elitism and go it alone prejudice which was similar to Stark trying to put a robot AI army around the world in case of another alien attack 

The Avengers didn't actually know Crossbones was going after a biological weapon. They didn't even know for sure he would be there. It seemed like they had a tip and were acting on it. The thing that was probably wrong here was going in completely covertly without coordinating with local forces. I don't think it would have been hard to convince Steve that the Avengers needed to be more respectful of sovereign nations - I think they just didn't provide Steve with a system he could buy into. I don't think Tony would have bought into the Accords if he wasn't feeling guilty over Ultron. Ross' plan was to hit them in a moment of weakness and bully them under his thumb and it kind of worked. I wouldn't be surprised if we found out down the road that he was working in conjunction with Zemo.

[romantic idiot]

Also, given none of them were local, the info must have come from someone local, for them to get it. 

[dkb]

Watching it again, I appreciate Ant-Man and Hawkeye coming to help even more. The mission was to go stop Zemo from awakening the other Winter Soldiers, or to take down those soldiers if they were awake by the time they got there. The way Bucky told the story those soldiers are stronger then him (as that one guy beat him in the cage) and far more dangerous.

They came to stop what they believed was another dangerous threat to the world, not to fight Team Iron Man, for that reason I can totally accept that Clint would come out of retirement and that Scott would want to help. They are Heroes.

Looking forward to the next Ant- Man movie even more now. Is the Wasp going to come rescue him from where ever he's hiding? That would be awesome.

[Perfect Xero]

I assume that since Zemo perfectly plotted out and predicted everything that happened in this movie, he was both the one employing Crossbones and the one who tipped off the Avengers, knowing that when Cap cornered Crossbones, he'd set off his suicide vest, but Wanda would stop it, but not without a whole bunch of people getting killed, thus furthering his plot with the Accords.

 

On 5/13/2016 at 9:47 AM, OakGoblinFly said:

No one is excusing Tony's behavior; what they are saying (I think) is that his going off the rails at the end of the movie and attacking Bucky is perfectly understandable.  While Tony might have known on an intellectual level that Bucky was mind-controlled into murdering the Starks; his emotions (already frazzled) overrode his intellect and he want to hurt the guy that “killed my mom.”  Once Tony started beating on Bucky, and then Steve, adrenaline, rage, and frustration made it nearly impossible for him to stop.

How long are your emotions allowed to override your intellect before it stops being understandable? Tony is doing the exact same thing in that scene that Zemo is doing throughout the movie, they even cut to Zemo and Panther eating popcorn and watching the fight so T'Challa can comment on it.

If Tony had a surge of emotion and gone after Bucky for a minute or two before being subdued by Cap I'd be fine with it, but it just kept going and going.

CA: Winter Soldier ended with Bucky being able to overcome 70 years of Hydra mind control and having his memory erased yet Tony Stark couldn't overcome raw emotions and some vaguely indicated PTSD to not murder someone?

[NoWillToResist]

On 2016-05-13 at 1:39 PM, Dandesun said:

And I found myself rather disappointed in Howard there... driving a regular old sedan, those blood packets just in a suitcase in the trunk. Did he get lazy in his old age or something? All of that strikes me as wildly out of character for Howard. There's driving under the radar, sure, but there's also... you know... being Howard Stark and protecting yourself and your inventory.

And the whole video on the street still sticks in my craw. I get that it was for the pure drama aspect of it but I still feel it was ridiculous. Bucky shoots the camera out after all of that? Was the video just to confirm that he got the goods and killed Howard and any witnesses? Wouldn't his returning with the blood packs be confirmation enough? Plus, again, based on what we saw in the Winter Soldier, I'm surprised that Bucky didn't leave that entire part of the forest road on fire. I also agree with the idea that Maria died of asphyxiation as opposed to a collision and that's a bit on the sloppy side for Hydra as well. Couldn't it have been enough for Bucky to cause the 'accident' that killed them? No, they had to make it that much more personal.

I don't know... none of that sits right from a story point of view for me. It's all a little too convenient. It bugs.

I'm trying to wrap my head around Howard carting this very important cargo WITH HIS WIFE IN THE CAR. He put her in harm's way.

I also agree that it would have been enough to have had them die in the car accident via Bucky. There was no need to add the more hands-on element to their deaths. Bucky was still "responsible" for their deaths, Tony would still have been pissed at him, and we could have shaved off 5 minutes from the run time. ;)

On 2016-05-13 at 4:46 PM, deaja said:

But you can't really (in my opinion) bring in real world logistics when you're dealing with other worldly beings (Loki and Thor, to name two) and beings that the governments really can't control. Unless other superheroes are helping, there is no way you get Scarlet Witch to a cell.  You can't capture and contain Incredible Hulk unless he chooses to allow it.  

Which brings me to this question: how did Team Cap get captured? When the authorities arrived, couldn't Antman have shrunk and escaped? Couldn't Falcon have flown away? Couldn't Wanda do...something...with her powers to get away or mind whammy the authorities to discombobulate them? Did they just...surrender? And unless I mis-saw or misinterpreted what I saw, Wanda was in her cell, with some kind of collar on, which I'm presuming negates/contains her powers. Where the fuck did that come from? Who made that? How? When?

I'm trying to get Zemo's timeline/plan right. This is what I have so far and it makes me cringe so I'm hoping I've fucked up somewhere:

His family died in the Sarkovia nonsense and he was out for revenge against the Avengers. Somehow he found out that Bucky was the Winter Soldier and Cap's old friend. Somehow he knew that Cap would always go to bat for Bucky and so Bucky would be the key to drive a wedge between the Avengers. Fortunately for Zemo, he's some computer hacker genius or something and managed to find the dude who had the Winter Soldier Operating Manual. Zemo also magically knew that there was a fake wall in the dude's house and found said manual. I guess in that manual, it was also revealed that there were more Winter Soldiers? Zemo somehow knows some important mission took place at x date, but can't get the details.

He was able to get past UN security, presumably disguised as a legit news person, and pulled a news van, WHICH CARRIED A BOMB, right up close to the UN building. In addition to being a great computer hacker, Zemo is also skilled in mimicry and can flawlessly create a convincing Winter Soldier disguise, and put himself at the right angle for the security cameras at the UN. He was then able to slip away.  I guess he knew that Bucky would be found and rescued by Cap, thus creating a wedge between Tony and Cap, rather than Bucky being killed on sight by any authorities and thus fucking his plan.

He was then able to know which psychiatrist the gov't would call to assess Bucky. He was then able to find out the hotel and room where his psychiatrist was staying, and killed him. He was then able to waltz into the UN(?) building where Bucky was being held DESPITE LOOKING NOT AT ALL LIKE THE PSYCHIATRIST, and have full, unsupervised access to Bucky. I guess he wasn't searched either because he was able to bring in the Winter Soldier Operating Manual. He was then able to activate Bucky, get the historical mission info, and get away.

He was then able to travel to Russia and get to the secret WS Bunker (which appeared to be abandoned yet remained fully powered for the last 25 years), kill all the other Winter Soldiers; sift through all their records and find video evidence of Bucky's kill mission regarding the Starks; load that into the handy video player; sit back and wait for the somehow guaranteed arrival of Bucky, Steve, and Tony; and just wait for the fallout. Once the fighting started, he patted himself on the back for a job well done and left the building to put a bullet in his skull.

Is...is this correct?

Edited May 14, 2016 by NoWillToResist
sometimes I have too many thoughts and forget them...

[scarynikki12]

Quote

how did Team Cap get captured?

I think I can answer this one.  Tony had blasted Falcon, so he was likely unconscious.  Hawkeye is, of course, human so he'd be pretty easy to arrest.  Wanda had been overpowered by Vision.  And Ant-Man had taken off his mask when he returned to his normal size and can't shrink without it. 

What I was most curious about was how someone as powerful as Wanda could actually remain in lockup.  Once Vision was gone she should have had no issue getting out of her restraints and cell but she was clearly unable to do so.  I want to know how they figured out the right way to detain her. 

[Wynterwolf]

47 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

What I was most curious about was how someone as powerful as Wanda could actually remain in lockup.  Once Vision was gone she should have had no issue getting out of her restraints and cell but she was clearly unable to do so.  I want to know how they figured out the right way to detain her. 

It wasn't explicit, but she looked pretty drugged out to me, so I assumed they had given her some kind of Thorazine-equivalent for a powered person.  And I think once Cap and Bucky were able to get away, the rest of them chose to basically give themselves up and stop fighting, especially after Rhodey was hurt.  Per Sam, their mission turned into just springing Cap and Bucky to deal with Zemo and the other potential Winter Soldiers and they accomplished that.  

[Rick Kitchen]

They had also put some kind of electronic collar on Wanda, it might have caused her pain if she tried to use her powers.

[Bruinsfan]

Might just be randomly timed shocks or injections to disrupt her concentration, too. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it violates Geneva Convention laws about humane treatment of prisoners. Thankfully Cap seemed to show up to spring her and the rest of them without too much delay.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[Perfect Xero]

I had to go to the bathroom during most of the prison scenes, is there some reason to think Wanda wasn't just wearing one of the classic power dampener collars that have been used in the comics forever?

[Bruinsfan]

Beyond no technology like that having been shown or even mentioned as yet in the MCU?

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Beyond no technology like that having been shown or even mentioned as yet in the MCU?

The TV show has adaptive holding cells that meets different Inhuman power sets

[Jeebus Cripes]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I had to go to the bathroom during most of the prison scenes, is there some reason to think Wanda wasn't just wearing one of the classic power dampener collars that have been used in the comics forever?

Yeah. It looked like the power-inhibiting collars they use on mutants in the comics, though I realize she's not technically a "mutant" in the film.

[Wynterwolf]

Very interesting to watch CA: The Winter Soldier again after seeing Civil War... I had forgotten that it was a plot point that Bucky's conditioning started to fail if he was out of the cryosleep too long.  And seeing him struggle with remembering added even more sharpness to the scene in CW where Bucky desperately tried to break out of containment before Zemo could take control of him, like he could slowly feel himself slipping away again after having that small taste of freedom.  

[phalange]

I've finally seen the movie, so I can stop avoiding spoilers like the plague! We saw it in 3D, but that was because the regular showings were completely sold out. I don't think 3D is strictly necessary for this one, but certainly doesn't hurt. I thought this was a great movie, and it's definitely up there with my other MCU favorites GOTG and The Avengers.

The opening fight scene was great, although I agree the shaky camera work (and I think 3D enhanced this) could've been toned down. It did add to the frantic feeling though. I like Falcon's "Redwing" device, and Natasha kicked major ass, which was awesome. The showdown at the airport more than lived up to expectations. Spidey being in awe of all the superheros around him was really realistic, and the Queens/Brooklyn bonding moment with Steve was kind of adorable. I cracked up every time Rhodey called Antman "Tic Tac" and his freakout when Antman went gigantic ("The little man is big!").

Even though I knew it was coming (since this spoiler was virtually impossible to avoid), Peggy's funeral made me so sad, especially with the recent cancellation of Agent Carter. Poor Peggy has not had a good week. :( I see the MCU remains committed to avoiding any mention/confirmation of her husband, although it's not really fault of the movie since obviously this was filmed long before any news of the show's potential renewal. I'm one of those that has no problem with Steve/Sharon and I actually kind of like them together. Hey, if neither of them has any problem with the Peggy connection, who am I to argue? Sam and Bucky's little head nods of approval from inside the car were hilarious. Also, I'm surprised Tony wasn't at the funeral. I find it really hard to believe that he didn't know Peggy while growing up since she and Howard were good friends. You'd think he would want to be there. Natasha showing up to support Steve was sweet though. I've liked their friendship ever since Winter Soldier.

The final battle between Tony, Steve, and Bucky was great, and I don't blame Tony for his reaction. Logically, he knows Bucky was being controlled, but he just watched the video of his parents being murdered with the guy who killed them standing right there, and Steve, his friend, just admitted to knowing the truth but hiding it from him. Emotion is going to override logic at that point. Great contrast with T'Challa, who was trying to kill Bucky the whole movie, setting emotions aside and refusing to let Zemo die when he easily could have.

Regarding the Accords, I went into the movie being much more on the side of Team Iron Man, since I don't think any group that is ostensibly supposed to be protecting the public, superpowered or otherwise, should go without any kind of regulation. Yeah, they're the "good guys" but it's not hard to understand why citizens of the countries/cities where these battles take place don't always see it that way when their families die and their homes get destroyed. I came out of the movie able to see everyone's point; why Tony wanted accountability and why Steve wanted to just protect his friend. Tony saying to Steve, "I thought I was your friend" was hard to watch, though. While I understood Steve, I think I just had a bit more sympathy for Tony in the end.

I enjoyed the post-credit scenes, and I think it's a good thing that Bucky volunteered to put himself back on ice for now. It's definitely for the best. Funniest audience reaction came after the Spidey post-credit scene, when a guy yelled "THAT'S IT?!" from the front of the theater. Ha.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Now THAT was worth waiting for!

Saw it last night and I Absolutely Loved it. So many have already stated what was great,and I agree.  I did read some comments, not here, I don't think, maybe the Unpopular Thread? About just as Batman v. Superman, there some things not to like about this movie as with the other? Since I refuse to watch that shitfest by Snyder and company, will only base what I'm going to say on the sneak peeks and scenes I saw of it, I will say, there was nothing about this movie that I didn't like. Well, okay, one thing. The revelation of Tony's parents' deaths/murder. Too Convenient and "plot pointy" if you know what I mean. But there was so much to love about this movie, and I stayed away from spoilers and this thread for nearly a year.  The only thing I was spoiled on, was the appearance of Spidey. Which I LOVED. And Holland was SO Adorkable! Surprised to see Scott and Clint! Didn't know they would be in it.

I was Team Captain going in, Team Captain coming out, and until Steve and Tony's huge fight near the end, I really was hoping for a "Hug it Out" but alas, it didn't happen. That fight broke my heart, because though on Team Captain, I could see where Tony's rage was coming from. And I also thought the team would be flipped--in that Captain America would be on the side of government.  And I say this as someone who's never read the comic for this story, so was coming in totally blind from the source material.

My stars though, seeing Steve's muscles bulging as he tried to stop Bucky in that helicopter. I think I held my breath until it was over.

Loved the kiss, and seeing Sam and Bucky's reactions. Especially Bucky--seeing him smile. 

A lot of laugh out moments, not just for me, but the rest of the audience.

And going to the Regal Theatres after they renovated--seats that inclined back and had feet rests! Like a regular LAZEE boy! Munching on my popcorn and drinking my Slushee, I was in heaven!

I'm totally going to see the new Spidey movie.

The Bad? The freakin' previews. Just one--the SHEER FUCKERY of the premise of X-Men: Apocalypse.  AN that's all I'll say. 

I am toally going to go see this movie again.

ETA: I know some didn't like it, but I, along with my fellow movie goers, found Stan Lee's cameo and his line: "Are you Mr. Stank?" had us rolling. And I was saying in my head, yes, yes he is.

Edited May 15, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[nksarmi]

17 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I assume that since Zemo perfectly plotted out and predicted everything that happened in this movie, he was both the one employing Crossbones and the one who tipped off the Avengers, knowing that when Cap cornered Crossbones, he'd set off his suicide vest, but Wanda would stop it, but not without a whole bunch of people getting killed, thus furthering his plot with the Accords.

 

How long are your emotions allowed to override your intellect before it stops being understandable? Tony is doing the exact same thing in that scene that Zemo is doing throughout the movie, they even cut to Zemo and Panther eating popcorn and watching the fight so T'Challa can comment on it.

If Tony had a surge of emotion and gone after Bucky for a minute or two before being subdued by Cap I'd be fine with it, but it just kept going and going.

CA: Winter Soldier ended with Bucky being able to overcome 70 years of Hydra mind control and having his memory erased yet Tony Stark couldn't overcome raw emotions and some vaguely indicated PTSD to not murder someone?

Since every fight scene in comic book movies tend to go on longer than they should (I think this is plaguing some televisions shows as well but I appear to be in the minority) - you can probably just assume the fight scene should have only been a minute or two and then Cap disabled the suit. And I like your idea about Zemo being behind Crossbones - that really would complete his evil mastermind plan. :)

[Bruinsfan]

I'm going to handwave that Zemo had a cascade strategy, and we just saw things play out in response to the actions the heroes actually took. Maybe he would have arranged to tip Tony off if Sam hadn't, or hid out from Steve and Bucky at the secret base and sent the video to Tony at a later date when all would be present in the same location.

[romantic idiot]

And Bucky's death would have hurt Cap and thus hurt them all. Especially if he could later tip them off that Bucky was innocent.

[AD35]

Since Tony and Pepper broke up I was hoping that Tony would have described it "conscious uncoupling".

[HoodlumSheep]

3 hours ago, AD35 said:

Since Tony and Pepper broke up I was hoping that Tony would have described it "conscious uncoupling".

I just had to google that term because I had no idea what it meant. I'm still a bit confused by the term; so it's basically splitting/divorcing (or whatever you want to call it), but staying on good terms? And you still share assets?

is that right? Tony and Pepper seem on the outs currently, so I don't know if they're really on good terms right now.

I just don't think Pepper's absence has been handled as well as it could have been. I just feel like it's making the Pepperony ship a bit...unhealthy. I wasn't the fondest of how Pepper was dealing with Tony's ptsd (heck, no one seems to give a crap about it), and I'm not too fond of her somewhat ultimatum of Tony having to give up his suits, etc. for them to work. It just bugs me. I get how she's probably freaked out about how he's always doing dangerous stuff, and I get that Tony seems like he wants to retire after the world is deemed safe (like that'll ever happen), but I just...Iron Man is a part of who he is so this Pepperony drama just rubs me the wrong way, kind of?? She's coming off as unaccepting of who he is IMO. Like I said before, I'll find it kind of cheap if they just decide to get together again after Tony retires or whatever's going to happen during/after infinity wars. I know RDJ is still gung-ho about Pepperony, so I guess I should expect it.

??? Does this make any sense??? Like, I like Pepper and Tony (well, I love Tony) as individuals, but not really together as an item anymore.

Edited May 16, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Enigma X]

I just saw it, and I loved it. Although Tony is my favorite, I was Team Indifferent/Convince me of your stance going in. After all was said and done, I still can't choose a side because both sides offered valid points. 

I am not upset with Tony's reaction to Steve or Bucky. I was hoping for an Avengers hung-out session though.

I am so glad that Ant-man and Spiderman joined the team and was very impressed with Black Panther.

[SnoGirl]

Finally saw the movie this morning. Nothing like going to a 9am on a Sunday to beat the crowds. 

I absolutely loved it. It was heartbreaking, suspenceful and amazing all at the same time. Echoing everyone else who wished they had spent a little more time on Steve, I wish there had been one new flashback of Steve, Bucky, Howard, and Peggy from the War. I think it would have connected Bucky to Tony a bit more too (although having two different Howards might have thrown people) and reminded people of the friendship. Not everyone marathons movies before sequels (I did, can't help myself).

That said, I left the theater wanting more, wishing to see smaller beat moments. Like Steve telling Bucky about Peggy's death or even Bucky telling Steve he was sorry about Peggy(that one I was really surprised they didn't include). Or a scene where Tony is talking to Friday about still not being able to locate Banner. Or someone helping Peter Parker get home after being basically abandoned in Germany. I would have died if they had included a Foggy or Murdock scene trying to find the heroes who had been locked up in the floating prison because the wanted to represent them.

I was really split down the middle between Cap and Tony, but twice Tony just killed me with his decision making, and I absolutely adore Tony. The first was bringing in a teenager who didn't even have his license yet into the fight. I know the writers/directors were asked why Murdock wasn't asked by Tony but I think that answer is obvious (There's no way Murdock is going to answer to anyone about Hell's Kitchen, he doesn't even answer to Foggy or Karen about it) but what was Tony thinking? Peter is a baby (six months into being Spiderman) and Tony had no idea how he would be treated by everyone else. I don't think Sam, for one, would have fought him the same way if he knew he was so young. I wish Steve had questioned his age later when he saw Tony. I also hated the end with Tony returning back to Avenger's Mancave without even doing anything about the other Avengers locked up. So he's okay with defying The Accords to help Steve but after everything with Bucky, he's out? I wished we'd see him making a phone call about defense lawyers or at least looking at some on a computer. You'd think since he met Clint's kids and lost his own parents, he'd try to get Clint out. I still love Tony, he wouldn't be Tony if he didn't make one questionable decision in a movie. And man, does he need someone to help him deal with his PTSD, I bet he could have bonded with Sam too.

The question now is, how does everyone mend their relationships? Wanda is not going to be very happy about how she was treated. Can't imagine Clint forgiving Tony anytime soon. And how is Tony and Bucky ever going to be able to work together? I vote for Sharon and Widow joinning up together on the run. Two ass kicking women? Rock it ladies, I'd watch them in a movie together.

I'm definitely on Team Hug it Out. This movie was brutal to watch with all the fighting.

Edited May 16, 2016 by SnoGirl

[Bruinsfan]

Honestly I don't imagine Wanda ever really forgave Tony for the trauma she and Pietro went through as kids, though she obviously signed on for the greater good the Avengers can do as a whole (note that Iron Man was supposedly retiring as an active Avenger at the end of Age of Ultron, so she wouldn't have been going on missions with him or hanging out together much). Siccing Vision on her as a guard dog and then locking her up without counsel and drugging/slave collaring her probably just adds fuel to the fire.

[Crs97]

Hope no one in the building she destroyed has loved ones who feel the same way about her.

[Wynterwolf]

Yeah, I think everyone is now steeped in so much guilt/blame/isolation on so many sides that it is going to be a hard road for any of them to find a way to mend all those cracks, but it will be an utterly fascinating story to watch unfold.  

ETA:  It also occurred to me last night that The Accords, as they were enforced, basically did to the Avengers, what Hydra did to Bucky, just without the brainwashing and the cryosleep.  

Edited May 16, 2016 by Wynterwolf

[anna0852]

This was a great movie but a hard watch. I just kept cringing as all these well intentioned people who respect each other and want to do good in the world are being torn apart. I hope that these wounds can heal but I fear they won't. I wonder what Thor is going to say. Or Banner or Fury.

[Wynterwolf]

Fury being gone, I think is a real key... he was always able to bridge the gap between the Powered and the NonPowered, Coulson too... without either of their input (even just a word to someone here or there), the Avengers have lost the real person perspective, and I think that's where so many of the misunderstandings started.  

ETA:  That and differing levels of priority:  Cap's first priority is Stop Injustice, Tony's is Eliminate Loss.  They can't do either entirely, and that's part of what hurts both of them so much.  

I may also be thinking about all this waaaay too much.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Wynterwolf

[benteen]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 3:50 PM, dkb said:

Watching it again, I appreciate Ant-Man and Hawkeye coming to help even more. The mission was to go stop Zemo from awakening the other Winter Soldiers, or to take down those soldiers if they were awake by the time they got there. The way Bucky told the story those soldiers are stronger then him (as that one guy beat him in the cage) and far more dangerous.

They came to stop what they believed was another dangerous threat to the world, not to fight Team Iron Man, for that reason I can totally accept that Clint would come out of retirement and that Scott would want to help. They are Heroes.

Looking forward to the next Ant- Man movie even more now. Is the Wasp going to come rescue him from where ever he's hiding? That would be awesome.

Having gotten a chance to see the movie again this weekend (and still really enjoying it) I also picked up on how it was said that Ant-Man jump onboard specifically for the mission to stop the Winter Soldiers, which makes more sense than just becoming an outlaw for the hell of it.

Quote

I'm trying to wrap my head around Howard carting this very important cargo WITH HIS WIFE IN THE CAR. He put her in harm's way.

Yeah, this was just plain arrogant and sloppy on Howard's part here.  Unless his wife also did some work for Shield but her background is pretty much unknown.

Edited May 16, 2016 by benteen

[Wynterwolf]

10 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, this was just plain arrogant and sloppy on Howard's part here.

Heh, which I think was pretty in character for Howard, especially how he evolved over time.  He also probably only trusted himself to transport it, and figured low key was the best disguise.  

[Raja]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

This was a great movie but a hard watch. I just kept cringing as all these well intentioned people who respect each other and want to do good in the world are being torn apart. I hope that these wounds can heal but I fear they won't. I wonder what Thor is going to say. Or Banner or Fury.

Well its not a TV series and the next time we see them it will be a major event where the call on the burner phone won't be ignored. How many minutes can be allocated to the reintegration when Infinity War comes around? Probably less then spent on the Black Panther or Spider-Man the third giving their origins this time around.

[NumberCruncher]

1 hour ago, anna0852 said:

I wonder what Thor is going to say.

He'd say they were all petty and tiny, of course. ;)

[Jediknight]

19 minutes ago, Raja said:

Well its not a TV series and the next time we see them it will be a major event where the call on the burner phone won't be ignored. How many minutes can be allocated to the reintegration when Infinity War comes around? Probably less then spent on the Black Panther or Spider-Man the third giving their origins this time around.

I don't mind spending no time on their origins, because Black Panther has his own movie coming out, which should go into it more, and Spidey is the same category as Superman and Batman, we know the origin story, we don't need to see it for the 753rd time.

[VCRTracking]

Stand By Your Man: Steve And Bucky At The Center Of CIVIL WAR

Why this is Captain America movie after all.

I agree with the article that even with all those other Avengers, it's still a Captain America movie and not an Avengers one. Cap's decisions is what drives the story and his friendship and devotion to Bucky is the center of everything.

Edited May 16, 2016 by VCRTracking