S11.E11: The Men Tell All (Kaitlyn Edition)

[canaanite2]

Nick and Juan Pablo weren't chastised specifically for having sex. If I remember right, Nick wasn't criticized for simply having sex, he was criticized for talking about it openly without the Andi's consent. But I could be mis-remembering. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pixel]

1. Telling someone you hope they die is not a death threat. It's not nice, but it's not a death threat. "I'm coming to find you and kill you," is a death threat.

2. While I don't condone cyber bullying, Chris Harrison reading the mean tweets was unintentionally hilarious. I will never not giggle when I hear his voice in my head say,"Shut your whore mouth. #slut."

Edited July 22, 2015 by Pixel

[Mu Shu]

People see the point of view they want to see. I recall Bob not only being reviled for all the sex, but also nicknamed Blob. Flapjack was reviled. So was Deanna, but not for sex, but because she came off badly.

Kaitlin's biggest problem, and it's also due to TB miscasting her, was the inability to guide and control the interactions on the show. She was flighty and inconsequential. Wrong person for the job. They've been miscasting for awhile now.

I don't like Trista, but she drive her season like Sherman during the Georgia/Carolinas campaign. No Kaitlyn, you're not tough at all. Trista is made out of titanium.

[canaanite2]

I can't remember Bob's season. Too long ago for my brain. So long ago, in fact, that at this point it would lack cultural relevance. I was curious and tried to find the criticisms against Bob only to find this: http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/the-bachelor-creator-mike-fleiss-there-is-sex-during-show-10599.php  This show has always been driven from a sexist perspective, and as long as the ratings are good and the feedback falls in line with what Mike Fleiss expects, that's not about to change.

[JenE4]

I am a mother, and I certainly don't expect anyone on this franchise ever to be a "role model" to my kids. In fact, I use this show as a teachable moment of how NOT to conduct their lives. If my daughters or son ever went on any iteration of this show, then I would feel that I failed as a parent. No matter how well they conduct themselves, negative editing and/or comments from viewers are inevitable. Mean Tweets aren't new--and before Twitter there was something else. Hell, anyone old enough to remember Prodigy message boards before the Internet was even the Internet? Everyone who has ever appeared on this show--and no doubt any other show--has been criticized. That's just how it works. In fact, this Web site and the one that this site's creators created before this one (Television Without Pity) were founded solely TO snark about TV shows and the people on them! I don't want Harrison or anyone else telling me that I can no longer snark online about My Shows. That's why I'm here! Yet, I would think stars of shows know to avoid going to Internet chat sites because they WILL see criticisms and jokes at their expense. Directly Tweeting mean things to someone crosses the line, though. I like to think the things that I say on Previously.tv will never be seen by the person in question. I would feel terrible if they did read it--like every single contestant this series would sob, "They said I look like a busted [applicable celebrity name]!" I like to think that what we say is clever and entertaining to each other--because it is from our perspective. But it would still be hurtful if read by three person in question. Damn you, Harrison, making me question whether my favorite hobby (posting on this site) is a form of indirect and unintentional cyber-bullying! But, hell, it's not like Previously.tv is going to shut down in solidarity. (Shrug)

[alexa]

I think there is a huge difference between the snark on TWOP and PT, versus sending tweets and emails calling someone a whore.  Although there was one poster here that did that, that kind of insult is very rare and not the kind of snark that was intended at these types of websites.  I get what you are saying, but I do think there is a clear difference, and I think that most reality show contestants could come here and see a fair assessment of the show they are on, and how they came across.  I think most of us post things here that we are not ashamed to post.  

[Alapaki]

I think the focus on cyber-bullying is exactly what Fleiss & Co. were hoping for when they tossed that huge Red Herring into the Studio to distract from the steamer that this season has become.

 

As far as Kaitlyn's "intimate" activities, I think it's all a matter of time and place.

 

She conveyed to Shawn that he was her choice for F1.  It seems the consensus is that Shawn did not misread anything there.  Kaitlyn actually did that.  FWIW, I think she probably had some "intimate time" with him that was a part of that, but that's beside the point.

 

After she told Shawn that he was F1 (when they were "engaged to be engaged", so to speak) she invited Nick (who was for all practical purposes, and now by Kaitlyn's own admission, essentially a "a past boyfriend") onto the season, and proceeded to sleep with him the first chance she had.

 

At that point, although some of specific factual details may differ, Kaitlyn = Chris S. and Shawn = Britt and, ironically, Nick = Kaitlyn.

 

Now I think one can question why Shawn hasn't gotten the backlash that Britt got.  But then that would require actually using the MTA time to discuss something other than whether J.J. and Clint are gay, whether Ian is every going to get laid again, and whether Kaitlyn is a victim of the mean, nasty interwebs.

[wovenloaf]

Well, it actually is okay for consenting adults to have sex with each other without a commitment being attached to it, and it's not automatically gross. Men have been doing this for eons and will continue to do this without the fear of being labeled and minimized as a human being. Why shouldn't women? Responsible adults having sex is not a bad thing and no one, man or woman, should be made to feel that it is.

There is nothing wrong with sex meaning different things to different people. Expressing a personal distaste for something doesn't equate to a personal attack on anyone who disagrees.

 

Taking it back to this show - I, personally, have always had a significant problem with the "Fantasy Suites" concept in general. Not because I find adults having sex disgusting, but because I find parading your sex life around on national television to be an extreme level of poor taste. Leaving your mic on while you're supposedly getting it on would also fall into this category, in my opinion. Nick's hollering out he and Andi's business last season, however mad he may have been, also is, in my opinion. I also have a problem with "Fantasy Suites" because I perceive there to be an air of giving everybody a "test ride" before you make a decision. Which I think people should do on their own time. Not on television. I have no qualms about being a Wrong Reasons viewer, but the Fantasy Suite business has always been a trashy-bridge too far for me. That doesn't mean I think everybody on this show is some sort of harlot, or that they would deserve to be called one even if they were. But I don't have to blindly applaud them all for it either. 

[saber5055]

I suggest looking for morality and standards and role models elsewhere.  I have never understood this notion that once it's on television, suddenly it's all about "what about the kids and you're a role model, etc."

 

 

Try telling that to a bunch of teens, all trying to "fit in" so much that they copy each others' styles, clothing, mannerisms, way of speaking. How do you say, "Kardashian?"

 

Count me as one who did not see any Kaitlyn DEATH THREATS. Emailing someone that you "hope they die" is not a death threat. A death threat is "I'm outside your house and I'm going to shoot through your bedroom window some night and kill you." And how did that person get Kaitlyn's personal email address? Heck, there are a few people in my life that "i hope they die." Doesn't mean I'm going to do anything to hurry that along for them. I just won't miss then when they are finally gone.

 

I was frankly confused by TPTB giving Kaitlyn almost a Juan Pablo edit during the season, then pulling her out from under the bus and decorating her with roses at TMTA. So disappointing. This show no way resembled "fun" all season long. I've been a watcher since S1 Ep1 but I'm afraid it's losing me. Not that Fleiss cares a whit about what I think!

[Former Nun]

I don't agree with Kaitlyn's choice to sleep with a guy on tv

Well, at least she and Nick didn't "do it" up against that big block wall. I thought that's what was happening.

1. I don't dislike Kaitlyn--I don't even know her. I found her behavior entertaining in a low-budget-movie kind of way. All participants are to blame...especially the producers.

2. I still have not read an actual death threat. Perhaps I'm being too literal when I read "death threat." Should everyone be put into protective custody who says, "Cross my heart and hope to die. Stick a needle in my eye"? Are they really hoping to die? Are they brandishing a needle?

3. If Chris Harrison or ABC has proof of actual death threats, they should inform the viewing public that the information has been turned over to the appropriate authorities.

Edited July 22, 2015 by OnceSane
quoted post was deleted

[Padma]

Nick and Juan Pablo weren't chastised specifically for having sex. If I remember right, Nick wasn't criticized for simply having sex, he was criticized for talking about it openly without the Andi's consent. But I could be mis-remembering. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought if he'd been a woman (let's say that Andi had said that about JP), many of his critics would have applauded the directness.

 

As for Andi, I'll never think she's not such a hypocrite. I don't remember her getting any "consent" from JP before blasting him on television as an indifferent, uncaring lay. At least Nick just expressed sadness that he felt she led him on then dumped him when he'd asked her not to sleep with him if she really wasn't interested. JP was edited as a cad....oh, and so was Nick. Andi was let off easily imo.

 

Kaitlyn might not have come across so badly if she had -only- had sex with Shawn (as it seems). But telling Shawn he was "the one" then sleeping with some other guy made her look cheap and tacky and insincere. (Even though she hasn't yet confirmed that they had sex in SA, everything points that way. Plus, CH said production knew she'd chosen Shawn---hence, the reason they scrambled to bring in Nick "otherwise we thought our show was over already") 

 

It's a little hard to sell "Love at first sight" and "You're the one" when a new guy shows up and you have sex with him just a couple of days later. I wouldn't call her names, but I totally "get" where the criticism is coming from. She'd have to be pretty stupid not to (1) realize this show records everything possible and uses that to hype the drama and (2) lots of people (yes, including parents) wouldn't approve of her behavior. How could that be any kind of surprise?

 

She wasn't held accountable at all, unlike how CH treated Juan Pablo for, imo, doing nothing more than having consensual sex without claiming a heartfelt commitment to the women (Clare, imo, Andi, and Nikki).  JP may have been a jerk, but the show treated him far worse in its editing and interviews (and continued ridicule--see: Kimmel, Jimmy and "the cow"). Kaitlyn should look back at JP and be glad she had a lot more support than he ever did for what she did--from the show (post show) AND from the audience.

[Allie Sandra]

 I think that the messages that CH read were the producers' message to Kaitlyn: "You, bitch, ruined the season. We have seen you do and say disgusting things on and off camera and that is what we think of you."

[canaanite2]

 

She wasn't held accountable at all, unlike how CH treated Juan Pablo for, imo, doing nothing more than having consensual sex without claiming a heartfelt commitment to the women

 

The backlash towards Juan Pablo had nothing to do with his sex life. I don't remember anyone saying he was wrong for having sex with anyone, on the show or otherwise. As I recall, people disliked him for his personality and CH disliked him because he committed the ultimate Bachelor sin of not pretending to be in tru wuv with the "winner." He was also caught making homophobic statements, which didn't help his cause.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Men Tell All, And Chris Harrison Reads Sexually Lurid Hate Mail Aloud / It's time for The Bachelorette's cherished annual tradition of allowing the men to tell all! But will they tell ALL, or only some? And how much of it should you watch? Let us guide you!

[operalover]

I am a mother, and I certainly don't expect anyone on this franchise ever to be a "role model" to my kids. In fact, I use this show as a teachable moment of how NOT to conduct their lives. If my daughters or son ever went on any iteration of this show, then I would feel that I failed as a parent. No matter how well they conduct themselves, negative editing and/or comments from viewers are inevitable. Mean Tweets aren't new--and before Twitter there was something else. Hell, anyone old enough to remember Prodigy message boards before the Internet was even the Internet? Everyone who has ever appeared on this show--and no doubt any other show--has been criticized. That's just how it works. In fact, this Web site and the one that this site's creators created before this one (Television Without Pity) were founded solely TO snark about TV shows and the people on them! I don't want Harrison or anyone else telling me that I can no longer snark online about My Shows. That's why I'm here! Yet, I would think stars of shows know to avoid going to Internet chat sites because they WILL see criticisms and jokes at their expense. Directly Tweeting mean things to someone crosses the line, though. I like to think the things that I say on Previously.tv will never be seen by the person in question. I would feel terrible if they did read it--like every single contestant this series would sob, "They said I look like a busted [applicable celebrity name]!" I like to think that what we say is clever and entertaining to each other--because it is from our perspective. But it would still be hurtful if read by three person in question. Damn you, Harrison, making me question whether my favorite hobby (posting on this site) is a form of indirect and unintentional cyber-bullying! But, hell, it's not like Previously.tv is going to shut down in solidarity. (Shrug)

I would not feel bad if any of the contestants read here because anyone who signs up for a reality show should know BY NOW that their repuation on the internet could possibly be destroyed! I  understand people years ago like those who went on the first season of Survivor: they really didn't know what a shitstorm the media and the public would put them through. But by now its common knowledge. If you don't want these consequences DON'T SIGN UP TO BE ON A REALITY SHOW!

I love how you wrote you would have failed as a parent if your kids ever went on this show, lol so so true. But anyone who complains about what the internet says about them after they sign up for such a shitfest in the year 2015 is an idiot. Like the girl who got wasted at the first cocktail party and was made fun of on the show and after. She will never live that down- she should have never signed up for it though. 

[Padma]

The backlash towards Juan Pablo had nothing to do with his sex life. I don't remember anyone saying he was wrong for having sex with anyone, on the show or otherwise. As I recall, people disliked him for his personality and CH disliked him because he committed the ultimate Bachelor sin of not pretending to be in tru wuv with the "winner." He was also caught making homophobic statements, which didn't help his cause.

The homophobic comments had nothing to do with the show so irrelevant to my point about Andi.

 

As I remember, the dislike of JP had a lot to do with his sex life. First was the (apparent) tryst with Clare in the ocean which she found amazing and he felt guilty about (he said) embarrassed for "my daughter to see it". He got a lot of criticism for that as if it meant he was slut-shaming (hate that term!) Clare.

 

But that was nothing compared to the attacks on him after the FS when Andi, lying in wait with tv cameras, ambushed him for having sex with her and then not being interested in getting to know her as a person. She blasted him for it, and TB let it all on camera.  Of course, when she took Nick to the FS (apparently knowing she was going to dump him but wanting an F2 so she looked more desirable), then dumped him, she not only had led him on but was cold as ice.  Very little criticism of her (and she's still self-righteous as ever) and JP is still #1 Bachelor villain.  Then CH hated on him for not telling Nikki he loved her--even though he was sleeping with her--at ATFR.   

 

I thought Andi treated Nick much worse than JP treated her, but she got off so easily for it, just as Kaitlyn did this season.

[leighdear]

Hopefully Kaitlyn's edit means ABC will not allow her to do "Dancing With The Stars".  I can't imagine a less-liked contestant, though she would bring the drama viewers.  Juan Pablo was so hyped to do it, but sabotaged himself badly by the end of his season.  

 

Trista was the only female lead to be on, and though Melissa Rycroft was on DWTS twice, she was only a contestant on Jason's season.  And with Jake, Sean and Chris for the male leads, they all had good reputations and fairly uncontroversial seasons.

 

Hopefully ABC sees getting DWTS as a reward for a good season, as I don't relish the thought of a Kaitlyn Bristowe "redemption" story enacted underneath the hallowed mirror ball.  

[canaanite2]

 

As I remember, the dislike of JP had a lot to do with his sex life. First was the (apparent) tryst with Clare in the ocean which she found amazing and he felt guilty about (he said) embarrassed for "my daughter to see it". He got a lot of criticism for that as if it meant he was slut-shaming (hate that term!) Clare.

 

JP deserved the criticism he received because he characterized her as a temptress who tricked him in order to alleviate his own self-inflicted Catholic guilt. I don't recall JP being raked over the coals for the sexual act itself.  The term slut-shaming is self-explanatory. It's a phrase that's quick and to the point and will be necessary to use as long as it keeps happening. 

Edited July 22, 2015 by canaanite2

[JudyObscure]

I really don't care if she slept with all the contestants, Britt, the crew, and some random guys at the Ireland bars.

 

Why couldn't we have that show?  ;)

 

I, personally, have always had a significant problem with the "Fantasy Suites" concept in general. Not because I find adults having sex disgusting, but because I find parading your sex life around on national television to be an extreme level of poor taste.

I agree with Wovenloaf so much.  Even grosser than the rose covered Fantasy Suite beds was Sean and Catherine's wedding night bed and all the cringe worthy talk about what was going to happen there.

[Former Nun]

Why can't they just have a Fantasy Suite...as in "suite."   There could be two bedrooms--two people.  We don't have to know if there were any shenanigans or not.  Would the show really lose viewers if they couldn't view their imaginary porn?

[anony mouse]

Hopefully Kaitlyn's edit means ABC will not allow her to do "Dancing With The Stars". I can't imagine a less-liked contestant, though she would bring the drama viewers. Juan Pablo was so hyped to do it, but sabotaged himself badly by the end of his season.

Trista was the only female lead to be on, and though Melissa Rycroft was on DWTS twice, she was only a contestant on Jason's season. And with Jake, Sean and Chris for the male leads, they all had good reputations and fairly uncontroversial seasons.

Hopefully ABC sees getting DWTS as a reward for a good season, as I don't relish the thought of a Kaitlyn Bristowe "redemption" story enacted underneath the hallowed mirror ball.

The sad thing is, I think she might have been a fun DWTS contestant, had this season not gone the way it did. Although her humor is juvenile, she's up for anything and not one to be embarrassed, which is half the problem for people on the show - their inability to let loose and have fun.

DWTS usually does a better job at editing contestants favorably as well, so if she had gone straight from Chris's season to DWTS, I think she'd be far more well-liked, with only some minor irritation at her crass jokes.

[Former Nun]

Hopefully ABC sees getting DWTS as a reward for a good season, as I don't relish the thought of a Kaitlyn Bristowe "redemption" story enacted underneath the hallowed mirror ball.

 

 

Leighdear, I didn't even think of DWTS.  I might like to see her on the show.  She's supposedly a dance teacher.  We could see (again) just how incompetent she is.  Wasn't she also a hairdresser who butchered the hair of one of the guys on her show?

[b2H]

I am still convinced they had to pay these guys not to be too awful to Kaitlyn.  Maybe, now with the segment on reading the negative social media stuff, the producers of MTA told the guys they didn't have to be mean to her, because reading these letters/tweets/etc., would do a good enough job.

 

I didn't hear death threats either, not specifically calling for her imminent demise inflicted by the writer/poster.  On the other hand, if the mother that allegedly wrote that was able to express herself in that fashion to someone she never met, imagine how she is with her kids.  In any case, too much time was spent on it.  I applaud anti-bullying campaigns, but like everything else in this show this season, it went a little too far.

[OnceSane]

Back on topic, please. Past seasons of The Bachelorette and/or The Bachelor are not on topic. Stick to discussing what happened in this episode. Thanks.

[violetr]

I really don't care if she slept with all the contestants, Britt, the crew, and some random guys at the Ireland bars.

 

Why couldn't we have that show?  ;)

 

 

 

Judy Obscure, we finally agree on something. :) 

[truthaboutluv]

I think the reason more Bachelor leads have done DWTS is because of the way the seasons work out. ABC goes right from The Bachelor, which usually starts in January, right into DWTS' spring season. Look at this past season, it was literally the season finale of Chris' season and the next Monday was the season premiere of DWTS. However, The Bachelorette is a summer show that ends in August and DWTS' fall season doesn't start until mid-September like most fall shows. By the time DWTS comes back, another season of Bachelor In Paradise would have already aired.

 

In other words, by that point, most people already care even less about The Bachelorette and her pick. While people may joke about DWTS having D-List stars and aging television stars, etc. they do get people who were legit celebrities at some point and the fact is there are many managers/agents of former child stars, athletes, up and coming young stars, etc. who are trying to get their stars on the show. The Bachelor/ettes leads are like other-rans among these people. I mean seriously, how comical did Chris Soules look in a season against names like Nastia Liukin, Willow Shields, Rumor Willis, hell even Michael Sam, Suzanne Somers, etc. 

 

I do agree that Kaitlyn, annoying though she may be, could be an awesome contestant. If she's not exaggerating her dance background, she'd be a ringer and maybe turn out to be the best of any of the Bachelor/ette contestants that's ever been on the show (I don't care that Melissa won a season because she didn't deserve to win as far as I'm concerned). However, with the turn her season took and how many weeks will have passed by the end of it to the season premiere of DWTS, I'd be surprised if she was chosen.

 

I will say if she is chosen for the show and she does pick Shawn in the end, my fervent hope is that she is paired up with Val. Val who is all about the passion and intensity when dancing and all those sexy dances. Watching Shawn's greasy head explode week after week should be fun. Of course who am I kidding, like Chris and Whitney they'll likely be done already by then. 

Edited July 22, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Padma]

I've seen no indication that Kaitlyn is any better at dancing than she is at telling jokes or cutting hair. I am hoping--hoping!!--that ABC is finished with her and whomever she chooses after next week. No DWTS for her--a show I enjoy--please!

 

That said, I expect an imminent breakup and to see her, Shawn, Nick, Britt, and Brady on a future BiP. ("Drama!")  I doubt any of them will ever go away as long as there's a Bachelor-related show on.

[deSchenke]

What I detest is the term "fantasy suite".   Why not offer a card at the dinner table offering the rest of the evening off-camera?

 

Nothing is implied, no rose petals on the bed.

 

I can't imagine if I were one of the final 3 on The Bachelor(ette) and offered the 'Fantasy Suite'.  The pressure to have sex when you know there are 2 others would be:

 

Option 1) I don't have sex with The 'B'.  But what if the others do?  Does that mean to The 'B' that I'm not opening up, frigid, we aren't compatible sexually?

 

Option 2) What if I do have sex with The 'B' and the others don't?  Will that mean I'm only in this for a hookup, a horn-dog, a whore?

 

Then if you get eliminated:

 

Option 1) "I sucked in bed" or "s(he) thinks I'm just in it for sex"

 

Option 2) The 'B' needs to know that sexual chemistry is there and I didn't deliver.

 

It's a very unreal situation for what is described as a 'reality' show.  I shudder to think what the families of those involved in the last few episodes go through.  I remember Melissa from Jason's season saying her parents wouldn't participate because of the 'publicness' of it all.  How smart they were!

[Mabinogia]

I like the idea of "off camera time" without it having to be spending the night together/fantasy suite. There is nothing "fantasy" about screwing three people on three consecutive nights, or the implication of such. And I like you're point deSchenke about the total headgame the fantasy suite is. There has to be some questioning "am I the only one he/she did/didn't try to sleep with? What does it mean". I mean, how does #2 bring up if the star slept with #1. "So, Kaitlyn, here we are in the fantasy suite. Is this the same bed you banged Shawn on?" It's just such an unnatural setup. Of course, the whole show is unnatural so no one should be surprised that this aspect won't ever change.

 

I know it is bad for the show but I'd prefer to be able to have alone time on the actual date. Say you're on the beach, have your on camera romantic dance to some random band moment, all the useless babble about journeys and whatever dead relative or near death experience you have hanging around. Then the cameras go away and you can choose to stay on the beach and talk, go back to your room and knock boots, or go your separate ways if that's what you're feeling.  

 

Has anyone ever said no to the fantasy suite?

[backformore]

That said, I expect an imminent breakup and to see her, Shawn, Nick, Britt, and Brady on a future BiP. ("Drama!")  I doubt any of them will ever go away as long as there's a Bachelor-related show on.

I predict that Kaitlyn and her F1 will do what jimmy Kimmel described as "being contractually obligated to pretend to be engaged for 6 months"  then break up, and thenKaitlyn will be a more-or-less permanent fixture on Bachelor in Paradise. 

 

And I agree with deSchenke.

  Sometimes it seems like the Fantasy Suite turn the show into "you get to fuck three people, and then pick the one you want to keep."  

Edited July 23, 2015 by backformore

[Adeejay]

Has anyone ever said no to the fantasy suite?

 

Yes; and they were eliminated at the next rose ceremony.  I hope that this season of the Bachelorette will be like Charlie O'Connell's season of the Bachelor - an aberration.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Adeejay

[lids]

Having worked in production (not on this show, praise be) I kind of understand where the producers were coming from in canceling the destinations after the Nick one on one.

It's not that Kaitlyn and Nick had sex. It's that they got all soft core porn in the pub, then in the church, then up against the wall in a very public place. These are promotional locations. Some of the filming venues are offered for free because the businesses are hoping for good publicity.

Kaitlyn took Nick back to her room and propositioned him on camera. This is after she'd already been the most kissingest Bachelorette of all time. I assume they were worried she was going to be "all horned up" in several travel destinations if she was already getting forward with Nick on camera. Around that same time, production also found out from Shawn and Ben H that she was sneaking into their room. I bet the producers were freaking out. If they gain a bad reputation with several travel boards they aren't getting more cheap or free destinations. And they're owned by Disney, so they have to at least pretend to be discreet and have some morals/class. This is just more of an example of Kaitlyn not understanding that breaking the rules affects everyone.

[ByTor]

In Kaitlyn's defense, though, all she heard last season was "there are no rules", so I can't really blame her for behaving as though there are no rules.

[canaanite2]

 

Kaitlyn took Nick back to her room and propositioned him on camera. This is after she'd already been the most kissingest Bachelorette of all time. I assume they were worried she was going to be "all horned up" in several travel destinations if she was already getting forward with Nick on camera. Around that same time, production also found out from Shawn and Ben H that she was sneaking into their room. I bet the producers were freaking out. If they gain a bad reputation with several travel boards they aren't getting more cheap or free destinations. And they're owned by Disney, so they have to at least pretend to be discreet and have some morals/class. This is just more of an example of Kaitlyn not understanding that breaking the rules affects everyone.

 

According to Fleiss in the article I linked earlier, having sex isn't breaking the rules. He stated that it happens, and that it happens often. The producers of this show are slimy and clever as hell. I wouldn't credit Kaitlyn with throwing them off their game. How would she have done that? By kissing a lot of guys and and having sex with one of them? So what? The show is in control. They can yell cut. They can choose not to film. They can edit out things that were filmed. They can direct their cast members to do and say what they want. Also, do we really believe the vote for Kaitlyn over Britt was legit? There's no way they didn't plan for her to "win" all along. They chose her over Britt for a reason, and I think it's obvious why. It was time for the Bachelorette to be a "whore" and they thought Kaitlyn would be more believable in that role than Britt.

Edited July 23, 2015 by canaanite2

[anony mouse]

In Kaitlyn's defense, though, all she heard last season was "there are no rules", so I can't really blame her for behaving as though there are no rules.

I doubt she was told that. What the show tells viewers isn't what they tell participants. They are even required to meet with a psychologist throughout filming. I think they have a lot of rules given to them, even if we don't see them.

[ByTor]

I doubt she was told that. What the show tells viewers isn't what they tell participants. They are even required to meet with a psychologist throughout filming. I think they have a lot of rules given to them, even if we don't see them.

Off topic, sorry...but last season CH told the contestants where the Bachelor mansion (house, whatever) was and pay a visit when they wanted because there were no rules, so yes, both the contestants and viewers were told that.

[betha]

I would think the destinations would be more upset with the last-minute cancellations than with kissing.

I agree with canaanite2 that the show can do whatever it wants. There's no way it is kaitlyn's fault she didn't get to go to Patagonia.

However I did dislike her answer to Jared about if more time would have made a difference. "Well, I thought I was going to get to meet your family... I would have treated our road trip differently."

I think she decided to blame the producers here instead of say her feelings just weren't there, and that's not fair to Jared, who now has to wonder "what if" instead of being able to accept she wasn't that into him. Hopefully he figured that out anyway, but love can cause denial.

[backformore]

I had wondered for a while if part of the editing and change in format/schedule was that Kaitlyn was drinking a lot, and they decided to not show it. Something about the cancelled cocktail parties, and the way she said she made a mistake, made me wonder if she was at time, a bit tipsy. It would explain a lot about how this season was so different than previous seasons.

[anony mouse]

Off topic, sorry...but last season CH told the contestants where the Bachelor mansion (house, whatever) was and pay a visit when they wanted because there were no rules, so yes, both the contestants and viewers were told that.

He told them that on camera, and he told the girls - not Chris. I guess I'm not being articulate. My point was that when you are the lead, there are rules that production gives you, which may differ from the rules the people competing have to follow. And just because we see something on camera, doesn't mean they weren't told off camera "here are the rules you DO have to follow." If they make these people meet weekly with a shrink, I'm betting there are a lot of rules we aren't privy to that they have follow. Sharleen has even alluded to some of them.

Edited July 23, 2015 by starving artist

[ByTor]

He told them that on camera, and he told the girls - not Chris. I guess I'm not being articulate.

Nope, you articulated perfectly fine, I just misunderstood :)  I know what you mean now and yes, you are correct.

 

ETA: To clarify, what I meant was that as a contestant she had the no rules thing drilled into her head, and (perhaps incorrectly) assumed her season was no rules as well.   

Edited July 23, 2015 by ByTor

[JenE4]

I had wondered for a while if part of the editing and change in format/schedule was that Kaitlyn was drinking a lot, and they decided to not show it. Something about the cancelled cocktail parties, and the way she said she made a mistake, made me wonder if she was at time, a bit tipsy. It would explain a lot about how this season was so different than previous seasons.

She was drinking a huge tumbler of whiskey at dinner the night she slept with Nick. I thought it was a glass of iced tea at first and was surprised to see she put down the wine for iced tea--but then they mentioned the whiskey. This, of course, was after their all-day date in a pub on which empty pint glasses filled the table. Even though she was obviously "all horned up" (TM the drunk guy from night 1), I'm sure the alcohol played a huge part in not thinking through the consequences and all of the guilt she felt the next day.

[NikSac]

Well, it actually is okay for consenting adults to have sex with each other without a commitment being attached to it, and it's not automatically gross. Men have been doing this for eons and will continue to do this without the fear of being labeled and minimized as a human being. Why shouldn't women? Responsible adults having sex is not a bad thing and no one, man or woman, should be made to feel that it is. Communication is the tricky part, and this is where Kaitlyn failed.

 

I wish I could "like" this about a thousand times. It's so true. I have zero problem with her having sex with whoever she wanted to, whenever she wanted to - although that might've been a good time for some condom ads - but her communication about it was horrible. Generally if someone's a one-night-stand they both know it, and in this case it seemed like everyone who had sex with her felt (and rightfully so) like they were more than just that.

[backformore]

. Generally if someone's a one-night-stand they both know it, and in this case it seemed like everyone who had sex with her felt (and rightfully so) like they were more than just that.

Ok, but if the premise is that you're "looking for a husband"  and expect these guys to be ready to propose marriage in a few weeks, doesn't that change the "one night stand"  aspect of it?  

[ByTor]

Ok, but if the premise is that you're "looking for a husband"  and expect these guys to be ready to propose marriage in a few weeks, doesn't that change the "one night stand"  aspect of it?  

I took the OP to mean that the men thought they were more than a ONS:

 

it seemed like everyone who had sex with her felt (and rightfully so) like they were more than just that.

 

[NikSac]

Ok, but if the premise is that you're "looking for a husband"  and expect these guys to be ready to propose marriage in a few weeks, doesn't that change the "one night stand"  aspect of it?  

 

Yes, and that was kind of my point. I probably made it poorly. I think they are set up to feel like more than a one night stand. If that's all they were, she should have told them up front, had a fun night, and been done with it.  ETA: oops sorry just saw the mod note. I hope this post is okay. It's kinda episode related, but I'll be more careful.

Edited July 23, 2015 by NikSac

[backformore]

Yes, and that was kind of my point. I probably made it poorly. I think they are set up to feel like more than a one night stand. If that's all they were, she should have told them up front, had a fun night, and been done with it.  ETA: oops sorry just saw the mod note. I hope this post is okay. It's kinda episode related, but I'll be more careful.

No you made your point fine, I just wasn't clear that I actually agreed with you.   One night stands are OK if that's what people are agreeing on.   But on this show?  Not cool, because of the premise of the show. 

[himela]

Well, it actually is okay for consenting adults to have sex with each other without a commitment being attached to it, and it's not automatically gross. Men have been doing this for eons and will continue to do this without the fear of being labeled and minimized as a human being. Why shouldn't women? Responsible adults having sex is not a bad thing and no one, man or woman, should be made to feel that it is.

 

Sure, if women want to actually become men, they should have sex with everyone without commitment, without even knowing them. I'm not judging, I just find it gross and not feminine.

[canaanite2]

Sure, if women want to actually become men, they should have sex with everyone without commitment, without even knowing them. I'm not judging, I just find it gross and not feminine.

 

If men who have sex with everyone without commitment are masculine and women who do that become men, wouldn't that mean that men who don't have sex with everyone without commitment are feminine and become women?  Someone needs to tell the transgender community about this neat trick.

Edited July 24, 2015 by canaanite2

[Former Nun]

One night stands are OK if that's what people are agreeing on.   But on this show?  Not cool, because of the premise of the show.

 

 

Backformore, I think you just came up with a premise for a new show.  Shall we produce it together?  One-Night Stands.  Our logo would be a simple night stand.

[WhoInvitedHer]

What a disappointing MTA. Way too much time spent on JJ and Clint (either they did have a romance, in which case, it's quite mean to treat it like a big joke -- or they didn't, and it's a non-story) and the cyberbullying nonsense. I have no problem with them addressing cyberbullying, but I don't think it should have been done on the MTA. Have a special PSA about it during the commercial break or something. 

 

Ben Z. and Ben H. both doing winning Bachelor auditions. My money is on Ben Z. He's probably the better choice and he has a better 'hook' - his dead mom - plus Ben H. is a little young for the gig. I'd happily watch either of them though. Maybe they can bring Ben H. back in a couple of years. Ian made an admirable last stand, and I do think he was sincerely regretful...to have made such an ass of himself on tv. I was surprised not to see him in the Bachelor in Paradise promos. Would've thought that could have been a good way to redeem himself. 

 

Surprised we didn't hear from Cupcake or Tony. Maybe if Corey (who?) would have shut his yap for a minute there would've been time to get to them. 

 

I don't think Kaitlyn was expecting Ben H. to ask about why she didn't tell him about Nick, considering he knew as well as everyone else that the answer was obviously that she already knew Shawn was her F1 (or at least F2). I think she did just about as well on the spot as could be done under the circumstances. What was she supposed to say? I don't think Ben H. was in love with Kaitlyn, but I do think there was a mutual fondness there. 

 

Jarred, Jarred...I still don't see what others find so attractive about him (physically), but he is a gentleman and a sweetheart. Hope he finds a nice Lacey on Bachelor in Paradise. 

 

And one last thing...Kaitlyn looked...different, didn't she? I couldn't put a finger on it. Different hair and more (worse) makeup -- or at least the lighting was not doing her any favors. I guess I am one of the few who actually thinks Kaitlyn is quite striking, beautiful even (though she looked better on the Bachelor with her natural lips), but she looks better with less makeup, not more, and she looked tired and stressed on this show. I bet she can't wait for this all to be over and to be able to return to a somewhat normal life. 

 

Anyway, bring on Bachelor in Paradise! 

Edited July 25, 2015 by WhoInvitedHer